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On October 16 2015 21:33 Ovid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 19:58 olimoley wrote:On October 16 2015 19:10 Ovid wrote: This choice I only partly get, didn't TB say that Axiom were now self sufficient money wise? I'm sure a huge part of that was TB's influence and the starcraft channel he operates/clan wars ect but I feel this is a bit quick to pull the plug.
Eitherway It's a sad day best of luck to all involved. I don't believe he ever said that. We were almost to the point where they could break even, but not yet. We were seeking ways to keep the team going, but with his CT results it is now time for John to focus his time, money, and energy on his upcoming treatment and his family. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/483792-axiom-barely-exists?view=allPost #33 he says next sponsor Axiom will be turning a profit and he has said it's self sustaining. I just feel like the plug was pulled rather quickly, which is understandable if the majority of the money is coming out of his pocket/efforts but it's supposedly not. Since you do read TL and respond what does this mean for the majority of the players then end of the road? Military? Back to education or other work?
With this announcement it's pretty clear that TB lied to us, it's just how the world works. Managers always lie, no manager would say "my team is writing red numbers"
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On October 16 2015 22:09 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 21:33 Ovid wrote:On October 16 2015 19:58 olimoley wrote:On October 16 2015 19:10 Ovid wrote: This choice I only partly get, didn't TB say that Axiom were now self sufficient money wise? I'm sure a huge part of that was TB's influence and the starcraft channel he operates/clan wars ect but I feel this is a bit quick to pull the plug.
Eitherway It's a sad day best of luck to all involved. I don't believe he ever said that. We were almost to the point where they could break even, but not yet. We were seeking ways to keep the team going, but with his CT results it is now time for John to focus his time, money, and energy on his upcoming treatment and his family. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/483792-axiom-barely-exists?view=allPost #33 he says next sponsor Axiom will be turning a profit and he has said it's self sustaining. I just feel like the plug was pulled rather quickly, which is understandable if the majority of the money is coming out of his pocket/efforts but it's supposedly not. Since you do read TL and respond what does this mean for the majority of the players then end of the road? Military? Back to education or other work? With this announcement it's pretty clear that TB lied to us, it's just how the world works. Managers always lie, no manager would say "my team is writing red numbers" Man you have absolutely no knowledge of the internal affairs of the team and as Olimoley posted this was 6 months ago. Nowhere is there any indication anyone were lied to, that TB said it was self sustaining does not mean it still is atm after 6 months of bad results. Neither do we know if TB closes Axiom due to the workload or due to economy, maybe TB had to work his ass off to keep it self-sustainable then if he cannot do that the team will obviously not be self-sustainable anymore. We lurkers have no idea, so stop spouting this shit unless you have numbers anjd dates to back things up(which you obviously don't)
Ultimately though none of these things matter anymore, TB is in a pinch that none other then him can understand and his team is closing down. Its sad, its horrible but it was one heck of a ride! Lets not discuss who said what x months ago when at the moment many of us are mourning, even if you aren't.
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On October 16 2015 22:09 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 21:33 Ovid wrote:On October 16 2015 19:58 olimoley wrote:On October 16 2015 19:10 Ovid wrote: This choice I only partly get, didn't TB say that Axiom were now self sufficient money wise? I'm sure a huge part of that was TB's influence and the starcraft channel he operates/clan wars ect but I feel this is a bit quick to pull the plug.
Eitherway It's a sad day best of luck to all involved. I don't believe he ever said that. We were almost to the point where they could break even, but not yet. We were seeking ways to keep the team going, but with his CT results it is now time for John to focus his time, money, and energy on his upcoming treatment and his family. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/483792-axiom-barely-exists?view=allPost #33 he says next sponsor Axiom will be turning a profit and he has said it's self sustaining. I just feel like the plug was pulled rather quickly, which is understandable if the majority of the money is coming out of his pocket/efforts but it's supposedly not. Since you do read TL and respond what does this mean for the majority of the players then end of the road? Military? Back to education or other work? With this announcement it's pretty clear that TB lied to us, it's just how the world works. Managers always lie, no manager would say "my team is writing red numbers"
There is really no reason for your comment. I'm actually the one who might be misrepresenting the facts because I never handled sponsors or money, John would know better than I. You know in order to keep our sponsors we need to push out content and attend tournaments, meaning we must put in the time for managerial work, content production, and recording. John is a very hands on team owner and running it can be pretty time consuming. So even if we are sustainable, in the red, or profiting it doesn't even matter. We shouldn't be his priority, family and recovery should be.
I'm sorry to see Axiom disband, but I hope each of our players and staff continue to do great things in the community.
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It feels more like a family goes down and not a sole esports team. I wasn't a part of that family but it still makes me sad.
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On October 16 2015 22:33 olimoley wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 22:09 sharkie wrote:On October 16 2015 21:33 Ovid wrote:On October 16 2015 19:58 olimoley wrote:On October 16 2015 19:10 Ovid wrote: This choice I only partly get, didn't TB say that Axiom were now self sufficient money wise? I'm sure a huge part of that was TB's influence and the starcraft channel he operates/clan wars ect but I feel this is a bit quick to pull the plug.
Eitherway It's a sad day best of luck to all involved. I don't believe he ever said that. We were almost to the point where they could break even, but not yet. We were seeking ways to keep the team going, but with his CT results it is now time for John to focus his time, money, and energy on his upcoming treatment and his family. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/483792-axiom-barely-exists?view=allPost #33 he says next sponsor Axiom will be turning a profit and he has said it's self sustaining. I just feel like the plug was pulled rather quickly, which is understandable if the majority of the money is coming out of his pocket/efforts but it's supposedly not. Since you do read TL and respond what does this mean for the majority of the players then end of the road? Military? Back to education or other work? With this announcement it's pretty clear that TB lied to us, it's just how the world works. Managers always lie, no manager would say "my team is writing red numbers" There is really no reason for your comment. I'm actually the one who might be misrepresenting the facts because I never handled sponsors or money, John would know better than I. You know in order to keep our sponsors we need to push out content and attend tournaments, meaning we must put in the time for managerial work, content production, and recording. John is a very hands on team owner and running it can be pretty time consuming. So even if we are sustainable, in the red, or profiting it doesn't even matter. We shouldn't be his priority, family and recovery should be. I'm sorry to see Axiom disband, but I hope each of our players and staff continue to do great things in the community.
Couldn't a trial of someone else taking up the reigns with a little input from TB have been tried? It just seems a bit of an abrupt end when things looked like they were picking up (Proleague)
Read the big TB post it makes perfect sense now, the only alternative would be trying to crowd fund the first year but that would be very difficult. Good luck to all.
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Great people, great team, loved by all, will be sadly missed.
Good luck to all at Axiom <3
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F***k, and I was hoping without even knowing they had these plans , to see them in Proleague next year. The bad news keep coming and coming. I'm sorry to hear this. I hope they make it in their future plans ! thanks for everything !
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Wish there was more to say. Best of luck to TB. Best of luck to the players.
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Better to focus on your health. GL.
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On October 16 2015 21:13 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 19:58 olimoley wrote:On October 16 2015 19:10 Ovid wrote: This choice I only partly get, didn't TB say that Axiom were now self sufficient money wise? I'm sure a huge part of that was TB's influence and the starcraft channel he operates/clan wars ect but I feel this is a bit quick to pull the plug.
Eitherway It's a sad day best of luck to all involved. I don't believe he ever said that. We were almost to the point where they could break even, but not yet. We were seeking ways to keep the team going, but with his CT results it is now time for John to focus his time, money, and energy on his upcoming treatment and his family. He always claimed that Axiom cost him no money and it was self sufficient. He even flamed other people who didn't believe him.
Ok let's nip the speculations of fantasy team-owners in the bud right now.
"He always claimed" Flagrant lie.
"Axiom cost him no money and was self sufficient". False.
One post was made 6 months ago that stated Axiom was self-sufficient. What that post does not tell you is what happened to make it that way and what self-sufficient actually meant.
1) The team only became self-sufficient after salaries were cut across the board 2) The team only became self-sufficient after losing Impact, on the very same day that post was made. It was not self-sufficient with a 5 man roster. 3) Self-sufficient meant we could pay house costs and team salaries with the sponsorship money we were receiving. The team would be self-sufficient if everybody remained in Korea. It did not include any incidental expenses such as flights and hotels, which still came out of my own pocket.
Now let's talk about how this obviously would not have been the case in 2016. The Proleague plan allowed us to cut flights/hotels out of the expenses. However very few players are willing to stay in Korea all year and not go to a foreign tournament, so that was unlikely to be viable to begin with. We offered bonus schemes for wins and a salary bump to compensate after it was clear that players would not join the team otherwise, but it didn't matter because KeSPA has all the players and doesnt look like they're letting any of them go anytime soon. Those that are likely to leave are going to do so to join a foreign team and play WCS, which we could not offer (athletes visas are expense to acquire and we could not provide housing in the US anyway), nor were we willing to. So in the fantasy scenario in which we somehow form a viable proleague lineup, we are now making a loss again and that's assuming we can hang onto all our sponsors at current rates in 2016, which after 2015s performance is unlikely. Our content production was doing the bulk of the work for the sponsors, not our results, but participation in foreign events is an important part of representing the sponsor, even if we're not winning tournaments. Going Proleague only would not provide that for the sponsor, it was likely at least one major sponsor would pull out in 2016 and our prospective sponsor fell through for various reasons, as they have a tendency to do.
So there you have it. Axiom WAS self-sustaining, on 4 members, with reduced salary and no tournament flights and hotels. Axiom would NOT have been self sustaining in 2016 regardless of any plan we came up with, unless somehow we acquired even more sponsors. Could we have acquired another sponsor that cared less about results and more about content production? Sure, but there are various downsides to that. Distracting the players and taking up valuable practice time with yet more non-SC2 related stuff would only hinder their progress and Olivia who is doing the vast majority of the editing work on those videos which includes pain-staking line by line subtitling, can only do so much. Anything I took on to bolster the team would also have a massive opportunity-cost to me and I'm already overworked as it is.
So y'know, just in-case you needed more reasons beyond "hey yeah I have terminal cancer and might drop dead relatively soon", there you have them. Gotta admit I just laughed at the absurdity of this discussion, it's impossible to be offended by it given the circumstances.
Oh and if you want to know how far we were in the hole on Axiom? Try $250,000+ of my own money. There comes a time, specifically when you have a life-threatening illness, that you have to say "enough". I felt I made that clear in my parting statement but apparently not, hopefully it is now. It is only natural to speculate but it is highly unlikely that any of you have enough information to do so accurately.
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I guess this isn't surprising considering the news about TBs health, but it's still sad. Best of luck to all people involved.
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so sad. also disgusting that more TB haters are sprouting up like weeds in this thread. haters gonna hate cause they will never contribute anywhere near as much as TB did.
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Sad loved this team
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So sad to read this
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Very sad but understandable. I wish everyone in Axiom the best and strength to TB. I'll keep cheering for the Axiom members no matter what they end up doing Good luck to everyone~!!!!!
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On October 16 2015 21:13 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 19:58 olimoley wrote:On October 16 2015 19:10 Ovid wrote: This choice I only partly get, didn't TB say that Axiom were now self sufficient money wise? I'm sure a huge part of that was TB's influence and the starcraft channel he operates/clan wars ect but I feel this is a bit quick to pull the plug.
Eitherway It's a sad day best of luck to all involved. I don't believe he ever said that. We were almost to the point where they could break even, but not yet. We were seeking ways to keep the team going, but with his CT results it is now time for John to focus his time, money, and energy on his upcoming treatment and his family. He always claimed that Axiom cost him no money and it was self sufficient. He even flamed other people who didn't believe him. That's one of the more outrageous lies I've seen in a long time. Either you are very ignorant or just spouting lies of your own...
I've followed Axiom since it was founded and TB have always been very open of that he was pouring his own money into the team and that he hoped eventually it would lead to it being self-sufficient. Much later he said they'd locked up enough funds to last through the year and such but how you can make that into your deluded fantasies is beyond me.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On October 16 2015 21:13 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 19:58 olimoley wrote:On October 16 2015 19:10 Ovid wrote: This choice I only partly get, didn't TB say that Axiom were now self sufficient money wise? I'm sure a huge part of that was TB's influence and the starcraft channel he operates/clan wars ect but I feel this is a bit quick to pull the plug.
Eitherway It's a sad day best of luck to all involved. I don't believe he ever said that. We were almost to the point where they could break even, but not yet. We were seeking ways to keep the team going, but with his CT results it is now time for John to focus his time, money, and energy on his upcoming treatment and his family. He always claimed that Axiom cost him no money and it was self sufficient. He even flamed other people who didn't believe him.
On October 16 2015 22:09 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 21:33 Ovid wrote:On October 16 2015 19:58 olimoley wrote:On October 16 2015 19:10 Ovid wrote: This choice I only partly get, didn't TB say that Axiom were now self sufficient money wise? I'm sure a huge part of that was TB's influence and the starcraft channel he operates/clan wars ect but I feel this is a bit quick to pull the plug.
Eitherway It's a sad day best of luck to all involved. I don't believe he ever said that. We were almost to the point where they could break even, but not yet. We were seeking ways to keep the team going, but with his CT results it is now time for John to focus his time, money, and energy on his upcoming treatment and his family. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/483792-axiom-barely-exists?view=allPost #33 he says next sponsor Axiom will be turning a profit and he has said it's self sustaining. I just feel like the plug was pulled rather quickly, which is understandable if the majority of the money is coming out of his pocket/efforts but it's supposedly not. Since you do read TL and respond what does this mean for the majority of the players then end of the road? Military? Back to education or other work? With this announcement it's pretty clear that TB lied to us, it's just how the world works. Managers always lie, no manager would say "my team is writing red numbers"
There are times when it's more and less appropriate to make statements based on hearsay and pass them off as facts. With Axiom disbanding, this is probably one of the less appropriate times. You must have been smoking some shit to make these two statements in a row with a straight face.
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Thanks for all the memories! Good luck in the future to all involved with the team.
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On October 17 2015 01:29 ClanWars wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2015 21:13 sharkie wrote:On October 16 2015 19:58 olimoley wrote:On October 16 2015 19:10 Ovid wrote: This choice I only partly get, didn't TB say that Axiom were now self sufficient money wise? I'm sure a huge part of that was TB's influence and the starcraft channel he operates/clan wars ect but I feel this is a bit quick to pull the plug.
Eitherway It's a sad day best of luck to all involved. I don't believe he ever said that. We were almost to the point where they could break even, but not yet. We were seeking ways to keep the team going, but with his CT results it is now time for John to focus his time, money, and energy on his upcoming treatment and his family. He always claimed that Axiom cost him no money and it was self sufficient. He even flamed other people who didn't believe him. Ok let's nip the speculations of fantasy team-owners in the bud right now. "He always claimed" Flagrant lie. "Axiom cost him no money and was self sufficient". False. One post was made 6 months ago that stated Axiom was self-sufficient. What that post does not tell you is what happened to make it that way and what self-sufficient actually meant. 1) The team only became self-sufficient after salaries were cut across the board 2) The team only became self-sufficient after losing Impact, on the very same day that post was made. It was not self-sufficient with a 5 man roster. 3) Self-sufficient meant we could pay house costs and team salaries with the sponsorship money we were receiving. The team would be self-sufficient if everybody remained in Korea. It did not include any incidental expenses such as flights and hotels, which still came out of my own pocket. Now let's talk about how this obviously would not have been the case in 2016. The Proleague plan allowed us to cut flights/hotels out of the expenses. However very few players are willing to stay in Korea all year and not go to a foreign tournament, so that was unlikely to be viable to begin with. We offered bonus schemes for wins and a salary bump to compensate after it was clear that players would not join the team otherwise, but it didn't matter because KeSPA has all the players and doesnt look like they're letting any of them go anytime soon. Those that are likely to leave are going to do so to join a foreign team and play WCS, which we could not offer (athletes visas are expense to acquire and we could not provide housing in the US anyway), nor were we willing to. So in the fantasy scenario in which we somehow form a viable proleague lineup, we are now making a loss again and that's assuming we can hang onto all our sponsors at current rates in 2016, which after 2015s performance is unlikely. Our content production was doing the bulk of the work for the sponsors, not our results, but participation in foreign events is an important part of representing the sponsor, even if we're not winning tournaments. Going Proleague only would not provide that for the sponsor, it was likely at least one major sponsor would pull out in 2016 and our prospective sponsor fell through for various reasons, as they have a tendency to do. So there you have it. Axiom WAS self-sustaining, on 4 members, with reduced salary and no tournament flights and hotels. Axiom would NOT have been self sustaining in 2016 regardless of any plan we came up with, unless somehow we acquired even more sponsors. Could we have acquired another sponsor that cared less about results and more about content production? Sure, but there are various downsides to that. Distracting the players and taking up valuable practice time with yet more non-SC2 related stuff would only hinder their progress and Olivia who is doing the vast majority of the editing work on those videos which includes pain-staking line by line subtitling, can only do so much. Anything I took on to bolster the team would also have a massive opportunity-cost to me and I'm already overworked as it is. So y'know, just in-case you needed more reasons beyond "hey yeah I have terminal cancer and might drop dead relatively soon", there you have them. Gotta admit I just laughed at the absurdity of this discussion, it's impossible to be offended by it given the circumstances. Oh and if you want to know how far we were in the hole on Axiom? Try $250,000+ of my own money. There comes a time, specifically when you have a life-threatening illness, that you have to say "enough". I felt I made that clear in my parting statement but apparently not, hopefully it is now. It is only natural to speculate but it is highly unlikely that any of you have enough information to do so accurately.
My god it's good to see a cynical TB post after all of this. Keep fighting sir.
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