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On December 05 2017 03:47 washikie wrote:Zergs whining about air toss. I will now bestow the knowledge you once bestowed on me when i was but a Terran player: "Just kill them before they get their" With this knowledge bomb clearly you will now understand how late game zvp is a completely fair and balanced situation where protoss is justified in having an easy to control amove army that runs you over for not stopping them from reaching that point. You should have just not allowed them to play very defensively while making an unbeatable army. Your loss is completely fair and just. You were out skilled by there ability to sit in there base and make air units. How could you ever compare to someone who knows how to deffend on four bases while massing a very easy to use amove deathball that crushes evreything in its path. + Show Spoiler +It amuses me that a large number of zerg are complaining about skytoss when for years the answer to zerg late game for Terran has been "kill them before they get their". Why is it that the zerg community is convinced that they must have a superior late game in 100% of situations? Why not do as you have told terrans to do for ages and end the game before protoss get their?
So we shouldn't adress mass carriers because terrans insist on fighting ultras with marines? Terran arguments are evolving i see.
Another great example of why we need to separate balance threads by league.
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Seeing how people overeact with every single change and how terrans wouldn't stop saying that the race is completely broken no matter what, even when the patch is still fresh, i'm convinced Blizzard should stop listening to this community .
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On December 05 2017 22:41 xTJx wrote: Seeing how people overeact with every single change and how terrans wouldn't stop saying that the race is completely broken no matter what, even when the patch is still fresh, i'm convinced Blizzard should stop listening to this community .
Totally understandable, moreso when after every patch players needed to adapt and figure out things (which is one of the enticing things about watching any competitive game imho), but there's something off with the balance when INno and GuMiho for example (god-tier players) are losing nay to whatever the match pool is.
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On December 05 2017 19:33 opisska wrote: ...and balance also really affects only top players, so everyone else should be pretty happy with those changes.
This could not be more wrong. Of course it affects lower levels as well. There are players who will never achieve the same skill as the top players due to different reasons. Playing a race that is weaker than the others will influence their MMR and experience as well.
You can't just throw it off the table because "n00bs should learn to macro".
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On December 06 2017 00:26 FanaticCZ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 19:33 opisska wrote: ...and balance also really affects only top players, so everyone else should be pretty happy with those changes. This could not be more wrong. Of course it affects lower levels as well. There are players who will never achieve the same skill as the top players due to different reasons. Playing a race that is weaker than the others will influence their MMR and experience as well. You can't just throw it off the table because "n00bs should learn to macro".
Of course it influences your MMR. But how do you know if you have 3.9k MMR because your race is weak or because you are bad? You simply don't. The matchmaker makes the experience exactly the same. The only effect is that the number and icon can be a little different, but you still have no way of knowing if it is the case or not.
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On December 05 2017 22:07 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2017 21:43 JackONeill wrote:On December 05 2017 19:33 opisska wrote: JackONeill, I think your post is a good analysis of why the direction they took is so great: they have nerfed exactly the most obnoxious things about terran - mines that were much harder to deal with than to use and an answer to anything in the early game, bio that was able to take on anything without any high-tech units and the cancer that was massing ravens.
Maybe it has left terran a little weaker, but that could be balanced by some slight number changes - and balance also really affects only top players, so everyone else should be pretty happy with those changes. Yes, and i've always found the mine to be both abusive, random, annoying, and unfair. I'm also glad that the direction they took was to state that "massing 15 raven isnt the only way to play mech !" However i think you're sugarcoating it when you're saying it left terran "a little weaker". Such uncompensated nerfs will need to see other units get buffed, and heavily. I wasnt proposing that viking health went from 125 to 150 lightly : that quite a massive buff. The thing is that nerfing core units for both bio and mech so heavily and not proposing compensation from the start is kinda dangerous and will only lead to frustration. For instance, the cyclone's AA was buffed a little, surely to compensate for the mine not being that good anymore, and for ravens now being unable to spawn turrets to help kill flying stuff. However the cyclone's AA is nowhere near where it's supposed to be so that it can fill such a massive void. Therefore i think that not only will number buffs be needed, but design changes will be needed too. The ghost getting its energy back when the snipe is cancelled is already a MASSIVE help, and a step in the right direction, but i fear that blizzard won't move fast enough to prevent people (especially F2P newcomers) not playing the game out of frustration. The only reason for frustration of newcomers if when they read endless complaining posts online. Unless you are high Masters, you are unlikely to perceive any imbalance while playit, because if you race is harde, the matchmaker will just give you easier oponents. You are gonna win half of your games regardless of racial balance. Surely the game should be balanced but the importance of balance for non-top players is constantly overstated. I find it quite annoying after 7 years of living with the matchmaker. This is the key reason why we should be looking into individual things that make the experience unfun, such as builds or units that dominate a matchup or a phase of the game instead of some statistics. Gameplay is much more important than balance. Yet most of the posts here are fixated on how "fair" some changes are to their race, yours included.
You're denying reality here. Stating that frustration doesn't come from the game but the forum is absolutely ridiculous. Also people experience "legitimate" balance issues far deeper than high masters league. And no one has been talking about statistics here. Moreover, if you think that "fun" in a game doesn't depend on balance, you're sorely mistaken (especially when we're talking about new F2P-brought players).
I won't bother to go deeply into how and why you're wrong (it's a useless discussion and i wrote like an entire page worth of something much more interesting to me), but it's kinda amazing how you managed how you managed to write a post that's entirely and solely composed of erroneous or dishonnest statements.
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The two reactions here are a classic example of what ingrained opinions do to people. None of you have provided any reall rebuttals besides me just being "wrong" - I guess because there really aren't any to be provided in the first place. However your conviction that balance must be super-important to everyone is so strong that you feel compelled to just repeat vague notions in absence of any arguments, because your minds cannot come to terms with the possibility of things not being the way you feel.
So once again: the matchmaker gives you opponents that you have a 50% chance of beating. Players of all kinds of skill are available on ladder. If you are not at either extreme of the distribution, then even if the game is objectively imbalanced against your race, there are players available that will provide you a balanced game and you will be matched with such players. If your race is underpowered, you will be getting players who are somewhat worse than you as a compensation. However because you cannot determine your real skill level (MMR/league where you should be) independently of your race, you have no way of telling that this happens. Seriously, the only players somewhat affected by imbalance on non-top level are randoms, because they have a single MMR for all races; even people who just switch races are now fine with per-race MMR system.
Until you provide concrete arguments why this is not true, you are just shouting into the wind.
edit: to be even more clear, I am not denying that frustration can come from the experience in game. On the contrary, it does and I can tell you a lot about it But it has nothing to do with racial balance, things can frustrate you independently of whether your race is under- or over-powered. That is the whole point, that the things that matter to the bulk of players are on the "microscale" in game and they are highly individual and dependent on personal styles and abilities, while the actual racial balance has no effect outside top level competition.
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Yep, even on ladder with matchmaking, huge imbalance or stupid design cause a lot of frustration (ask zergs about 5rax reapers or Terrans about BL/infestors). In this situation you sometimes feels like in a match-up you loose vs a way worse player than you only because some imba shit. It is very frustrating... to the point some people stop to play. (cf. bl.infestors)
We should also see pro-scene as an inspiration for casual players. Today i can't even grab some good TvP bio builds from korean Terrans, because no one plays bio and win reasonably vs similar level opponents. (well, maybe uthermal and Major are better inspirations atm... )
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I agree that things that are obviously broken need to be patched. But ironically, such things may exists for races that are otherwise underpowered.
I was mostly addressing his remark that this will "frustrate newcomers" though and so talk about pro-scene and builds is rather tangential. Again, I agree that if we want to have a pro-scene, balance is essential.
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On December 06 2017 02:25 xongnox wrote: Yep, even on ladder with matchmaking, huge imbalance or stupid design cause a lot of frustration (ask zergs about 5rax reapers or Terrans about BL/infestors). In this situation you sometimes feels like in a match-up you loose vs a way worse player than you only because some imba shit. It is very frustrating... to the point some people stop to play. (cf. bl.infestors)
We should also see pro-scene as an inspiration for casual players. Today i can't even grab some good TvP bio builds from korean Terrans, because no one plays bio and win reasonably vs similar level opponents. (well, maybe uthermal and Major are better inspirations atm... )
innovation gave up on mech in tvp cuz it's worse than bio and he loses to aLive's protoss, but it's ridiculous to see how heromarine beating 6.3mmr protosses with only bio vs colossi and storm, their mmr doesn't reflect their skill.
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On December 06 2017 02:19 opisska wrote:
So once again: the matchmaker gives you opponents that you have a 50% chance of beating. Players of all kinds of skill are available on ladder. If you are not at either extreme of the distribution, then even if the game is objectively imbalanced against your race, there are players available that will provide you a balanced game and you will be matched with such players. If your race is underpowered, you will be getting players who are somewhat worse than you as a compensation. However because you cannot determine your real skill level (MMR/league where you should be) independently of your race, you have no way of telling that this happens. Seriously, the only players somewhat affected by imbalance on non-top level are randoms, because they have a single MMR for all races; even people who just switch races are now fine with per-race MMR system.
but there's no matchup-based MMR, so if one matchup is heavily imbalanced you won't have a 50% winrate in that matchup because the other 2 matchups are still keeping your MMR relatively high.
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On December 05 2017 19:36 Argonauta wrote: Revert marauder to HOTS stats and nerf chrono, that's the only thing imho.
And make Carrier build time longer or some other nerf, with the multitude of Infestor nerfs that were brought about specifically to counter Protoss mass air once again the Golden Armada is a rofl stomp 100 APM army that requires Zerg to utilize Queens, Vipers, and Infestors with excellent micro to even have a chance of defeating.
On top of it being imbalanced (I mean, they are clearly never going to buff Corruptors or Hydralisks vs. air at this point, can't help but feel that ship has sailed) it's incredibly not fun. This game has long been plagued with, "Achieve the ultimate air army because every races AA kind of sucks" and that needs to be the opposite direction moving forward to make aerial play much more limited.
Oh and Chrono is way too good in it's current format, I understand giving Protoss some love because they received the most changes so I figured a bit of imba and OP would pop up here and there, the game definitely feels better to play. But Terran feels weak, Protoss feels strong, and Zerg feels like they still cannot do a thing against mass Protoss air play.
- Revert rauders so bio can have more of a chance against Ultralisks/late game viability
- Nerf Chrono because it's too flexible, it allows Protoss to power upgrades, or power units, or power a Nexus, MULES and Inject don't possess near that level of flexibility. MULES gives income boost, Inject gives Larvae, Chrono gives.....anything the Protoss wants?
- Nerf Carriers but give buffs elsewhere, like ground units, the balance team should make a, "by the end of the year, mass air strategies will suck" game plan, because it is seriously lame.
Broodlord/Infestor? Unstoppable air army
Pre nerfed Liberators/Ravens? Terran rushed for turtle mode unstoppable air army
Mass Carrier with Mothership? Unstoppable air army
I just don't understand why mass Broodlord/Infestor and mass Skyterran are both considered cancer and get nerfed substantially, but Sky Protoss is not? What is the actual rationale behind this? At least with Broodlord/Infestor you had to micro manage your units because they were slow and vulnerable (Broods) or possessed weird activated abilities and needed a good spread to not get reamed by Infestors and Corruptors (Skyterran), what vulnerabilities does mass Carrier possess besides surrendering map control?
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On December 06 2017 02:19 opisska wrote:The two reactions here are a classic example of what ingrained opinions do to people. None of you have provided any reall rebuttals besides me just being "wrong" - I guess because there really aren't any to be provided in the first place. However your conviction that balance must be super-important to everyone is so strong that you feel compelled to just repeat vague notions in absence of any arguments, because your minds cannot come to terms with the possibility of things not being the way you feel. So once again: the matchmaker gives you opponents that you have a 50% chance of beating. Players of all kinds of skill are available on ladder. If you are not at either extreme of the distribution, then even if the game is objectively imbalanced against your race, there are players available that will provide you a balanced game and you will be matched with such players. If your race is underpowered, you will be getting players who are somewhat worse than you as a compensation. However because you cannot determine your real skill level (MMR/league where you should be) independently of your race, you have no way of telling that this happens. Seriously, the only players somewhat affected by imbalance on non-top level are randoms, because they have a single MMR for all races; even people who just switch races are now fine with per-race MMR system. Until you provide concrete arguments why this is not true, you are just shouting into the wind. edit: to be even more clear, I am not denying that frustration can come from the experience in game. On the contrary, it does and I can tell you a lot about it But it has nothing to do with racial balance, things can frustrate you independently of whether your race is under- or over-powered. That is the whole point, that the things that matter to the bulk of players are on the "microscale" in game and they are highly individual and dependent on personal styles and abilities, while the actual racial balance has no effect outside top level competition.
The fact that a person has been playing on a certain MMR/league level that could be considered his best where he achieved a long term 50% winratio (for 3+ years) and suddenly post-patch his MMR drops significantly without any real mechanical skill decline tells me that there is some sort of an imbalance in the game that made his previously equal opponents (protoss and zerg in this instance) a lot better.
Obviously there are multiple other reasons that contribute but you cant just throw this out of the window and say that it only affects the highest level.
Why did I increase my MMR/got promoted when Hellbats were a thing at the start of HotS and plummeted right back down where i was for a long time before (and stayed there from that point) the moment they patched them? Was it because i somehow started playing better for that same amount of time the hellbats were OP or was it because i was abusing their power which increased my MMR because my equal opponents were unable to deal with that?
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Reverting Marauders changes would mean that Ultralisks are back to being useless cows that die like pigeons from stimmed bio. I think that current state of ths unit vs bio is kinda OK. Bio still can kill Ultras but it's not so ez as it was in HOTS which is understandable concidering Ultra is top tier for Zerg and Bio is not same thing for T. So indirect nerf to Ultras, when they just nerfed Infestors to the ground would be an overkill. Now, I understand that it would help a lot in PvT but it would wreck TvZ. I think nerfing ChronoBoost is the way to go. It would make Protoss timings less imba and first of all it would nerf its ridiculous economy. It would normalize 2 forge play too. Now even Special is saying that Protoss can have 3/3 in time when Terran has his 1/1. Its pretty much OP
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On December 06 2017 14:50 hiroshOne wrote: Reverting Marauders changes would mean that Ultralisks are back to being useless cows that die like pigeons from stimmed bio. I think that current state of ths unit vs bio is kinda OK. Bio still can kill Ultras but it's not so ez as it was in HOTS which is understandable concidering Ultra is top tier for Zerg and Bio is not same thing for T. So indirect nerf to Ultras, when they just nerfed Infestors to the ground would be an overkill. Now, I understand that it would help a lot in PvT but it would wreck TvZ. I think nerfing ChronoBoost is the way to go. It would make Protoss timings less imba and first of all it would nerf its ridiculous economy. It would normalize 2 forge play too. Now even Special is saying that Protoss can have 3/3 in time when Terran has his 1/1. Its pretty much OP
Why would it wreck TvZ? Bio isn't even being played much in TvZ currently, so it's hard to imagine that a marauder buff would flip the match-up on its head.
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Reverting marauders when ghosts were buffed is a wrong move. If you make the ghost easier to use with bio AND buff the marauder, bio will be overwhelming.
The first thing blizz has to do is recognize that they gutted the mine without giving bio any compensation, and that such a nerf to the mine makes it unusable. The mine change needs to be reverted, changed or a least reconsidered (for instance i suggested making it weaker, but cheaper, faster to produce, and only 1 population).
Second thing is taking a look at the reaper. 3 rax reapers has been a cancer, everyone can and usually will agree about that, however the reaper is now back to its original state, where you can only build 1 or 2 in the early game, then you can unbind the R key for your baracks. Maybe giving the reaper some kind of utility later in the game through an upgrade would be nice. For instance, removing the reaper grenade but having a tech lab upgrade requiring the ghost academy that gives the reaper some AoE utility to cope for the mine nerf? Or give the reaper detection to help bio players use mules to sustain their production?
I would love for blizzard to consider giving bio playstyle somewhat of a coherent and well rounded roster of units so that you can play full bio, with the ghost as a late game unit, and the reaper not being useless past the 4 minute mark.
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On December 06 2017 15:19 JackONeill wrote: Reverting marauders when ghosts were buffed is a wrong move. If you make the ghost easier to use with bio AND buff the marauder, bio will be overwhelming.
The first thing blizz has to do is recognize that they gutted the mine without giving bio any compensation, and that such a nerf to the mine makes it unusable. The mine change needs to be reverted, changed or a least reconsidered (for instance i suggested making it weaker, but cheaper, faster to produce, and only 1 population).
Second thing is taking a look at the reaper. 3 rax reapers has been a cancer, everyone can and usually will agree about that, however the reaper is now back to its original state, where you can only build 1 or 2 in the early game, then you can unbind the R key for your baracks. Maybe giving the reaper some kind of utility later in the game through an upgrade would be nice. For instance, removing the reaper grenade but having a tech lab upgrade requiring the ghost academy that gives the reaper some AoE utility to cope for the mine nerf? Or give the reaper detection to help bio players use mules to sustain their production?
I would love for blizzard to consider giving bio playstyle somewhat of a coherent and well rounded roster of units so that you can play full bio, with the ghost as a late game unit, and the reaper not being useless past the 4 minute mark.
Seeing the Reaper not built past 4 minutes is a disappointment, it's a good high skill cap/micro unit that really shows the difference between top tier players and low tier, I would be fine giving it some pro bio changes, but idk, even with some type of AoE utility, what purpose is it going to serve a Terran in the late game when a Zerg is fielding Brood Lords, Ultralisks and cracklings?
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Yeah. Lategame AOE utility with unit that can be massed on barracks with reactors in early game. Definitely not powerful especially in LOTV economy model where u can pretty much rush to higher tech imidiately. Very good idea man.
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On December 06 2017 14:50 hiroshOne wrote: Reverting Marauders changes would mean that Ultralisks are back to being useless cows that die like pigeons from stimmed bio. I think that current state of ths unit vs bio is kinda OK. Bio still can kill Ultras but it's not so ez as it was in HOTS which is understandable concidering Ultra is top tier for Zerg and Bio is not same thing for T. So indirect nerf to Ultras, when they just nerfed Infestors to the ground would be an overkill. Now, I understand that it would help a lot in PvT but it would wreck TvZ. I think nerfing ChronoBoost is the way to go. It would make Protoss timings less imba and first of all it would nerf its ridiculous economy. It would normalize 2 forge play too. Now even Special is saying that Protoss can have 3/3 in time when Terran has his 1/1. Its pretty much OP
As some others and i mentioned, if they revert the Marauder they should also revert the Ultra to 8 armor.
I did some math. I compared the current marine/marauder bio ball vs Ultras with the buffed marauder bio ball vs 8 armor ultra, I also assumed the terran player to produce his bio out of 8 Barracks and always stimming his bio.
when producing out of 4 tech labs and 4 Reactors the new bio ball would have 97% of the current bio balls dps vs ultras. when producing out of 5 tach labs and 3 Reactors the new bio ball would have 105% ot the current bio balls dps vs ultras. Also the attack animation of the buffed marauder will be shorter and therefore better to micro.
that's not too shabby i think.
But to be fair, the Ultra isn't really a problem in TvZ and i think the more important reason for the Marauder change is the strength of chargelot/Stalker/sentry the problems in BiovZ are LBH and the lack of good Bio openings.
Edit: + a Marauder change would not affect Mech
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On December 06 2017 15:37 jpg06051992 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2017 15:19 JackONeill wrote: Reverting marauders when ghosts were buffed is a wrong move. If you make the ghost easier to use with bio AND buff the marauder, bio will be overwhelming.
The first thing blizz has to do is recognize that they gutted the mine without giving bio any compensation, and that such a nerf to the mine makes it unusable. The mine change needs to be reverted, changed or a least reconsidered (for instance i suggested making it weaker, but cheaper, faster to produce, and only 1 population).
Second thing is taking a look at the reaper. 3 rax reapers has been a cancer, everyone can and usually will agree about that, however the reaper is now back to its original state, where you can only build 1 or 2 in the early game, then you can unbind the R key for your baracks. Maybe giving the reaper some kind of utility later in the game through an upgrade would be nice. For instance, removing the reaper grenade but having a tech lab upgrade requiring the ghost academy that gives the reaper some AoE utility to cope for the mine nerf? Or give the reaper detection to help bio players use mules to sustain their production?
I would love for blizzard to consider giving bio playstyle somewhat of a coherent and well rounded roster of units so that you can play full bio, with the ghost as a late game unit, and the reaper not being useless past the 4 minute mark. Seeing the Reaper not built past 4 minutes is a disappointment, it's a good high skill cap/micro unit that really shows the difference between top tier players and low tier, I would be fine giving it some pro bio changes, but idk, even with some type of AoE utility, what purpose is it going to serve a Terran in the late game when a Zerg is fielding Brood Lords, Ultralisks and cracklings?
I don't know really, just throwing ideas. For instance if they were able to land spider mines? I don't know i just think it's bad design to have a unit that only has early game utility, and nothing past that. There's actually no other unit like that in the game. The only one may be the roach, but they can be turned into ravagers and get some mid-late game purpose.
The reaper is truly the only unit in the game that can't built past the early game.
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