2017 has come to a close, and now is the winter of Terran’s discontent.
It’s been a rosy few years for our space cowboys. INnoVation, ByuN, GuMiho and TY have all snapped up silverware since the launch of LotV, calling upon bio, mech, and an assortment of nasty builds (who could forget the flying tanks?). But after an all-Zerg finals at BlizzCon 2017 and a major game-design shakeup by Blizzard, Terran looks snowed in for the foreseeable future.
Zerg’s main weapon, the hydralisk, has survived multiple patches unscathed and remains enemy number one for bio and mech. As for Protoss, the radical redesign (including the removal of the mothership core) has actually strengthened the heirs of Aiur significantly.
Meanwhile, Terran has emerged from the whole ordeal worse for wear. Protoss are running rampant in TvP and a solution has not been forthcoming. Elite Terrans have tried both bio and mech, as well as Frankenstein-esque amalgamations of the two. None of these efforts have yielded anything substantial. The recent GSL qualifiers painted a stark picture. SpeCial, the best Terran from the WCS Circuit, failed to make Code S, while pros with one foot out the door like ByuL and Losira made an improbable return. NoRegret, Aligulac’s 112th ranked player in the world, returned to compete in his second Code S tournament, while twelve-time Code S player Ryung failed to make it through through the qualifiers.
• • •
Terran is trudging along in a frozen wasteland, seeking the warmth of tournament seeds and prize money it might never find (Protoss and Zerg players may contend their suffering is exaggerated). Can anyone come to its rescue? GuMiho has a real sense for strategy, but he lacks in raw talent. TY is a quirky, championship-caliber player, but his skillset is ill-suited for the current metagame. ByuN has been a shadow of his former self ever since the 2/1/1 and three-rax reaper openings went the way of the dodo. aLive showed flashes of brilliance throughout 2017, but was too inconsistent to lift the weight of anyone’s expectations.
That leaves us with just two.
INnoVation and Maru have been Terran’s top players ever since Heart of the Swarm. From April of 2013, Terran has won the championship in eight of the twenty-one major Korean tournament finals. Four of those titles belong to INnoVation (three GSL’s and one SSL), while Maru has won two (in the OSL and SSL). In the last five years, every other Terran in the world combined added a mere two Korean titles to Terran’s total (Gumiho and ByuN). In the modern era, there’s no doubt that INnoVation and the Maru are the best Terran has to offer.
Maru and INnoVation are similar in many ways, and it’s not just their indifference toward interviews and lack of remorse while pummeling their opponents. Both possess elite mechanics—they can macro out a seemingly endless stream of units, which they then micro with exquisite finesse.
Yet, they are completely different players in how they choose to harness their gifts. INnoVation’s strength is in taking the ideas of others and unlocking their full potential. Maru is an artist, who embraces imperfection in a way players like INnoVation might find incomprehensible.
That contrast has existed ever since the two began to be compared. By mid 2013, INnoVation had completed a remarkable transition to StarCraft II, becoming the most dominant player in the world. His blandness outside the game had given birth to a new identity: The Machine. It paired perfectly with his precise in-game play: INnoVation’s macro never stopped, and his marine splits were so cleanly executed they felt more routine than awe-inspiring. He did the same things everyone else did—only much, much better.
Maru had his big break in 2013 as well, winning the OSL after years of being just another player with potential (he beat INnoVAtion 4-0 in the semifinals of that tournament, briefly wresting away the title of ‘best Korean Terran’). INnoVation was nearly a finished product in 2013, forged in a KeSPA team house. Maru was still raw after winning his first title, leaning heavily on his micro while he worked out the holes in his macro.
But Jesus Christ, could the kid micro. INnoVation’s control was no less precise, but Maru did it with flair. It pervaded everything he did, whether it was killing isolated colossi with a handful of marauders, or weathering a deadly wave of banelings with impeccable marine splits. In similar situations, INnoVation might have microed all the same, but his immense macro advantage would have rendered such movements extraneous.
The first half of 2014 was a dark age for Terran, one that makes the winter of 2017-2018 seem like a tropical vacation in comparison. Terran had their worst Code S in history, with just three players interrupting the Zerg and Protoss celebration. Maru fought back from the abyss with inspired fury, his manic and hyper-violent attacks leaving opponents bewildered and beaten. For giving Terran fans their sole glimmer of hope, Korean community bestowed Maru with a unique title: ‘The Fourth Race.’
Other players were looking at the game through an accountant’s eyes, where winning was a matter of accruing material advantage through a series shrewd exchanges (observers are still keen to remind us of how many units, minerals, and gas have been lost over the course of a game). Maru saw the big picture. To him, tempo was a tangible force that could be be harnessed with tech choices, maneuvers and attacks. Maru realized that getting the worse end of a fight looks bad on a balance sheet, but that sacrifice can serve a higher purpose. To him a game was more than an amalgam of moments—it was a fluid entity completely under his control.
Maru became a more complete player over time, but the spirit of 2014 never quite left him. The contrast with INnoVation stuck as well. When colossus-heavy Protoss styles were in vogue through the latter portion of HotS, INnoVation counted on overwhelming opponents with even more vikings. However, Maru realized that if one were decisive and acted without hesitation, the colossus count would never get high enough for vikings to matter. There’s a reason that even now, a game from the 2015 Proleague season is still one of the most frequently referenced in StarCraft II history. Maru’s legendary beatdown of MyuNgSiK taught us that you can, in fact, be at an advantage despite losing 10,000 more resources worth of units, as long as you understand your win condition.
Even now, in 2017, INnoVation focuses on the best way to do what has been proven to work. Maru doesn’t care what anyone else thinks is viable.
• • •
INnoVation and Maru have fared better than their Terran brethren in 2018, but it’s shaping up to be a trying year nevertheless. Weeks of winter qualifiers have been a roller coaster ride. Maru was encouraging early on, earning the right to represent Korea in WESG Asia-Pacific qualifier in early December. He took out in-form players Solar and sOs (who later qualified for IEM Pyeongchang) in the earlier rounds before securing his ticket to Shanghai with a victory over Forte. Forte is not a vaunted opponent by anyone’s measure, but the manner in which Maru won almost resonated more than his victories over the former championships. He tore through Forte with practically with reapers alone, with a kind of ruthlessness and casual indifference that evoked peak Maru. It was reminiscent of the time he nearly brought former teammate Creator to tears, or when he introduced Byul, one of the best Zergs of HotS, to five-rax reapers.
Two weeks later, Maru failed to make it past herO in the IEM PyeongChang qualifier. Two weeks after that, Maru was eliminated by Impact in the first GSL Code S qualifier. While Maru managed to make it to Code S in the second qualifier (defeating SortOf), some of the luster had faded from his WESG result. More recently, Maru was bounced from yet another qualifier, this time at the hands of Zest in the first IEM Katowice preliminary. Despite the missed opportunities, Maru’s combined results so far are more impressive than any other Terran in the new season… ...except, perhaps, INnoVation.
After effectively taking 2016 off, INnoVation returned in 2017 to lift the trophy in win four premier events. If one was looking for perfect LotV Terran play, they would have to look no further than the man who might be the greatest of all time.
2017’s Terran dictator had a rough start to 2018, missing out on both WESG and IEM PyeongChang. But recently, he bounced back to make it to GSL in his first attempt (the only Terran to do so), while also winning a spot at IEM Katowice (with wins against herO and Classic). His MMR, which plummeted at the beginning of the patch, is back up to nearly 6800, placing him as the sole Terran in the top ten.
INnoVation was most successful during periods with a stable meta, such as the end of 2015, or when a single strategy was clearly superior, as with hellbat drops in 2013. That’s when INnoVation can do what he does best: grind out wins with standard, effective play. INnoVation’s games during the IEM Katowice qualifier signaled that he may soon arrive at that point.
With the GSL set to begin, INnoVation once again looks like the player most likely to carry Terran’s championship hopes. He’ll be playing on opening day, and enters a heavy favorite to advance to the next round. After that, he’ll have plenty of time to work out formulas for the new Terran textbook, which he'll take with him into the later stages of the tournament.
However, there’s something not-entirely satisfying about allowing the machine to set the tone. The one thing about INnoVation that stands out above everything else is how often he makes his victories look routine. It doesn’t matter if it’s against benchwarmers or Code S champions—they all look the same when they’re stuck to the underside of INnoVation’s heel.
Perhaps that’s what Terran players want, or at least the ones whose hearts have been completely hardened by vindictive bloodlust. But those with loftier ideals are hoping for something else:
It should be Maru who saves us.
Maru is nowhere close to being the virtuoso he was in HotS, but hints of his incomparable brilliance come through on rare occasions. He still plays with brute force disguised as grand jetes and tour en l'airs. Every player loses, but few can win like Maru.
Given a hundred years, we can imagine ourselves becoming INnoVation. We can hone our mechanics through mind-numbing repetition and sharpen our decision-making through the pain of experience. No amount of time will enlighten us to whatever spark exists inside Maru. If INnoVation shows us how we’re supposed to play Terran, Maru shows us how we want to play. INnoVation impresses, but Maru inspires.
At his best, INnoVation is the greatest Terran player of all time. At his best, Maru transcends Terran.
• • •
We all know how this is going to play out in reality.
Maru’s most glorious moment wasn’t when he beat Rain to win the only StarCraft II OSL or when he won Proleague finals MVP after carrying Jin Air all season. It was when he went up against Dear in the semifinals of WCS Season 3 Finals. Maru had his OSL championship in hand, but he was still a boy entering the dragon’s lair. Dear was at his absolute apex, having grasped perfection for a fleeting moment in time. Maru lost that series 3-1. And yet, for his unrelenting attacks that staggered Dear for just one game, Maru was more celebrated than the victor. For fighting so valiantly in defeat, he is still remembered.
It's been two years since Maru last won a championship, and we've seen that loss against Dear repeat itself in countless, lesser ways. We face a sobering realization: Maru's greatest legacy may not be as a champion or a royal roader. It’s as a martyr.
And so, Maru will fight again, and he'll die again. All the while, INnoVation will march on, with or without the rest of us. And who knows? At the end of it all, when INnoVation has arrived at his destination, he may look back and notice that he saved the Terran race.
Now is the winter of Terran’s discontent. Made glorious summer by this Sun of Korea.
The prophecy is clear. TY's whining will bring salvation to all Terrans.
Puns aside, I do agree with most everything in this article. While Inno is the more accomplished of the two, he lacks Maru's sense of flair, that thrill of élan not even victory can replace. Inno wins, sure, but Maru wins with style. Unfortunately, Maru seems to have left most of it back in HotS whereas Inno grinds ever onward, graceless but unstoppable.
Thanks for giving us another well-written article, mizenhauer.
Everytime when TY almost reaches the end of a Code S GSL I ask myself if he finally will win the trophy. I guess fans of Maru and herO have this feeling everytime and everytime they become dissapointed like me. I've been tired after every failed tournament, especially to watch how TY is loosing agains himself, not just because of lack of skill. I don't like Maru style in general rather I remember some momorable matches in the past, but I don't think he could bring hope for terrans. He could bring eventually the usual hype. Now there is no proleague. He could focus on Code S and he got a team behind him, all the conditions he needs to train well.
Liked this article a lot! I'm glad that I'm not the only one around who remembers what it feels like to see Maru at his best. I want that version of Maru to come back in full force!
Everytime Miz writes about starcraft I have the necessity of watching some games or play some games. Its just so epic! and I really hope Maru reads this and gets motivated to be the greatest terran on earth again.
On January 05 2018 22:45 Charoisaur wrote: Inno can't save terran, he can only win when Terran is overpowered. The second terran gets back in a balanced state he disappears.
Lol ok bro. Having half of the terran Kr tournament wins isnt enough for this pokemon i guess.
Never understood all the hype behind Maru, sure he has some nice moves but Byun and Gumiho also have those magic hands. Maybe it's because I started to follow SC2 at the start of 2014 so I never saw him live at his peak.
I am by no mean saying that he is a bad players of course he always stayed in the top of terran, but I really can't see how he "transcend terran". Still, well written article.
I don't know if Maru can save Terran, but I think he has a pretty decent shot of lining his pocket with $200,000 of that sweet WESG cash. By the time the main event is played, I expect Protoss to have been nerfed into oblivion, so he'll basically just need to beat Dark in a best of 5 or 7. I think that's more than possible.
On January 05 2018 23:28 Nakajin wrote: Never understood all the hype behind Maru, sure he has some nice moves but Byun and Gumiho also have those magic hands. Maybe it's because I started to follow SC2 at the start of 2014 so I never saw him live at his peak.
I am by no mean saying that he is a bad players of course he always stayed in the top of terran, but I really can't see how he "transcend terran". Still, well written article.
Gumiho? Gumiho isn't known for his mechanics nor micro. Even himself knew it as you can see in his WCS 2017 signature series vidéo.
Maru had some good micro centric TvZ on LotV, in the super tournament iirc, he still has his own signature style so the article is spot on about that. However I feel like Maru got put there for the narrative but in reality TY should have been there instead, he was the best performing terran at Blizzcon 2017 and there aren't enough data post patch to assess Maru as a potential savior of terrans.
Thanks for the article tho, hopefully I'm wrong and Maru comes back, gotta love these Prime terrans.
On January 06 2018 00:13 Poopi wrote: However I feel like Maru got put there for the narrative but in reality TY should have been there instead, he was the best performing terran at Blizzcon 2017 and there aren't enough data post patch to assess Maru as a potential savior of terrans.
On January 05 2018 23:28 Nakajin wrote: Never understood all the hype behind Maru, sure he has some nice moves but Byun and Gumiho also have those magic hands. Maybe it's because I started to follow SC2 at the start of 2014 so I never saw him live at his peak.
I am by no mean saying that he is a bad players of course he always stayed in the top of terran, but I really can't see how he "transcend terran". Still, well written article.
"GuMiho has a real sense for strategy, but he lacks in raw talent"
blame the game, not the player. GuMiho's skill-set is best suited for chaotic, low-econ situations, multi-tasking, unorthodox plays and grand strategy. these things have been slowly phased out over time, leaving no room for GuMiho to shine.
Maru is just lucky his favourite units didn't get nerfed as hard as GuMiho's did. GuMiho is the best mech player, best tank-drop user, best hellion user, best multi-prong attack player, an innovator and creator of many fine builds. but he's not the best at at marine/baneling split challenge so I guess he lacks raw talent
On January 06 2018 00:13 Poopi wrote: However I feel like Maru got put there for the narrative but in reality TY should have been there instead, he was the best performing terran at Blizzcon 2017 and there aren't enough data post patch to assess Maru as a potential savior of terrans.
TY has never won a tournament in Korea.
So what? Saving terrans is not necessarily in Korea, I would rather have INno losing GSL vs sOs but winning Blizzcon 2017... And TY had better results on LotV than Maru so my point still stands.
Why Maru ? He hasn't done anything since years. Terran's hope are with INno and TY, not Maru, who's a shadow of his former self... still go TY and INno and Even maru if he can get back on shape in Korea
On January 05 2018 23:28 Nakajin wrote: Never understood all the hype behind Maru, sure he has some nice moves but Byun and Gumiho also have those magic hands. Maybe it's because I started to follow SC2 at the start of 2014 so I never saw him live at his peak.
I am by no mean saying that he is a bad players of course he always stayed in the top of terran, but I really can't see how he "transcend terran". Still, well written article.
Gumiho? Gumiho isn't known for his mechanics nor micro. Even himself knew it as you can see in his WCS 2017 signature series vidéo.
Maru had some good micro centric TvZ on LotV, in the super tournament iirc, he still has his own signature style so the article is spot on about that. However I feel like Maru got put there for the narrative but in reality TY should have been there instead, he was the best performing terran at Blizzcon 2017 and there aren't enough data post patch to assess Maru as a potential savior of terrans.
Thanks for the article tho, hopefully I'm wrong and Maru comes back, gotta love these Prime terrans.
Well maybe not micro, but lets say "cute move factors"
On January 05 2018 23:28 Nakajin wrote: Never understood all the hype behind Maru, sure he has some nice moves but Byun and Gumiho also have those magic hands. Maybe it's because I started to follow SC2 at the start of 2014 so I never saw him live at his peak.
I am by no mean saying that he is a bad players of course he always stayed in the top of terran, but I really can't see how he "transcend terran". Still, well written article.
Strange that you say you started following in 2014, it's only in 2017 that most of the hype went to Gumiho/ByuN, in 2015 Maru was undisputed as the best terran, and his proleague run in 2016 was talked about by everyone
In terms of results over the years I'd say Maru is ahead of ByuN and Gumiho as well. While they both peaked for one season and won a GSL, Maru has countless more ro8/ro4 GSL finishes, maybe more than any other active player (?). Even in 2014, when he didn't win anything, it felt like he was the only terran making GSL playoffs every season
i see terran beating zergs and protoss all day in the korean ladder streams they are fine , Maru has been off the playoffs or round of 16 for years, not even in the top 15 of Korea
On January 05 2018 23:28 Nakajin wrote: Never understood all the hype behind Maru, sure he has some nice moves but Byun and Gumiho also have those magic hands. Maybe it's because I started to follow SC2 at the start of 2014 so I never saw him live at his peak.
I am by no mean saying that he is a bad players of course he always stayed in the top of terran, but I really can't see how he "transcend terran". Still, well written article.
However I feel like Maru got put there for the narrative but in reality TY should have been there instead, he was the best performing terran at Blizzcon 2017 and there aren't enough data post patch to assess Maru as a potential savior of terrans
It's probably less to do with data and more to do with terran being considered underpowered right now, in that situation people will always look to Maru as the savior
On January 05 2018 23:28 Nakajin wrote: Never understood all the hype behind Maru, sure he has some nice moves but Byun and Gumiho also have those magic hands. Maybe it's because I started to follow SC2 at the start of 2014 so I never saw him live at his peak.
I am by no mean saying that he is a bad players of course he always stayed in the top of terran, but I really can't see how he "transcend terran". Still, well written article.
Maru did things (the semi with Innovation, his TvP in HoTS, that surround on Innovation in a bio vs mech game) that I have never seen anyone else do. Then he loses to weird shit and some questionable decision making
But the article is completely correct: Maru inspires.
On January 06 2018 02:15 iamkaokao wrote: i see terran beating zergs and protoss all day in the korean ladder streams they are fine , Maru has been off the playoffs or round of 16 for years, not even in the top 15 of Korea
Completely unrelated.
A 6.5k+ player will be matched with people even 1000 mmr below him. So thats why you see the stomps on stream for pro korean races. Tournament play is different. You dont hide behind a barcode, your opponent knows you inside out. You have days or sometimes week to prepare. The statistics show that there is a big problem with terran right know. It is actually not viable to be a Terran progamer which is so sad.
I like nerds and obviously people can say whatver they want, but throwing around numbers and win statistics doesn´t do justice to this great article - which of course does the same thing itself, but is overall nothing short of good poetry. guess all I want to say is: thanks, mizenhauer.
It clearly states why Maru deserves to be in the spotlight, yet the majority of readers say, "Why Maru, Maru hasn't done anything in forever etc etc." -- funny part is, that's exactly what I expected from this community: hating on Maru has been the cool thing to do for a very long time now, and it really is sad that most people just don't seem to have a true handle on Maru's ability, or what he's capable of when he means business... Sure, you may say it's a big "If", but honestly, if there's a Terran that can do it when INno can't, I would easily pick Maru any day of the week.
People so easily forget how Maru carried JAGW in PL when the likes of sOs and Rogue couldn't muster any consistency for their team.
People so easily forget the Terran whom so often has been praised by the likes of soO and Scarlett as the best TvZer on the planet etc etc.
Pro's fear Maru because they get it - even if you don't.
On January 06 2018 02:15 iamkaokao wrote: i see terran beating zergs and protoss all day in the korean ladder streams they are fine , Maru has been off the playoffs or round of 16 for years, not even in the top 15 of Korea
Wait what? Maru has 2 of 3 Ro8 code S appearances in 2017 same as ByuN, one more than Gumi and 1 less than TY.
On January 06 2018 02:15 iamkaokao wrote: i see terran beating zergs and protoss all day in the korean ladder streams they are fine , Maru has been off the playoffs or round of 16 for years, not even in the top 15 of Korea
Completely unrelated.
A 6.5k+ player will be matched with people even 1000 mmr below him. So thats why you see the stomps on stream for pro korean races. Tournament play is different. You dont hide behind a barcode, your opponent knows you inside out. You have days or sometimes week to prepare. The statistics show that there is a big problem with terran right know. It is actually not viable to be a Terran progamer which is so sad.
On January 06 2018 03:37 Psychobabas wrote: When there are only 2 terrans that stand a chance in the meta, as this article points out, then you know something is very wrong.
Blizzard, fix.
TIL that one writer's opinions are undeniable fact.
Innovation will probably win. Maru wasn't successful so far (since a year or since lotv). I doubt he will surprise as tomorrow. I fear he will show us some old cheese/strategies which don't work anymore.
On January 06 2018 04:26 Togekiss wrote: Thank-you for this article.
It clearly states why Maru deserves to be in the spotlight, yet the majority of readers say, "Why Maru, Maru hasn't done anything in forever etc etc." -- funny part is, that's exactly what I expected from this community: hating on Maru has been the cool thing to do for a very long time now, and it really is sad that most people just don't seem to have a true handle on Maru's ability, or what he's capable of when he means business... Sure, you may say it's a big "If", but honestly, if there's a Terran that can do it when INno can't, I would easily pick Maru any day of the week.
People so easily forget how Maru carried JAGW in PL when the likes of sOs and Rogue couldn't muster any consistency for their team.
People so easily forget the Terran whom so often has been praised by the likes of soO and Scarlett as the best TvZer on the planet etc etc.
Pro's fear Maru because they get it - even if you don't.
Nobody hates maru. It is a fact that he had no success recently. What have his old hots successes to do with tomorrow? Not all of us are maru fanboys, we respect his skill, but don't need to praise him 24/7.
On January 06 2018 04:26 Togekiss wrote: Thank-you for this article.
It clearly states why Maru deserves to be in the spotlight, yet the majority of readers say, "Why Maru, Maru hasn't done anything in forever etc etc." -- funny part is, that's exactly what I expected from this community: hating on Maru has been the cool thing to do for a very long time now, and it really is sad that most people just don't seem to have a true handle on Maru's ability, or what he's capable of when he means business... Sure, you may say it's a big "If", but honestly, if there's a Terran that can do it when INno can't, I would easily pick Maru any day of the week.
People so easily forget how Maru carried JAGW in PL when the likes of sOs and Rogue couldn't muster any consistency for their team.
People so easily forget the Terran whom so often has been praised by the likes of soO and Scarlett as the best TvZer on the planet etc etc.
Pro's fear Maru because they get it - even if you don't.
I don't hate Maru at all lol, just saying that TY is objectively the most suited for the role in the article.
On January 06 2018 03:37 Psychobabas wrote: When there are only 2 terrans that stand a chance in the meta, as this article points out, then you know something is very wrong.
Blizzard, fix.
TIL that one writer's opinions are undeniable fact.
I wouldnt say they are undeniable but I agree with you that there is a lot of strength to them.
Maru has been my absolute favorite player for a very long time, as long as he's a contender on the top stage I will watch if I can. I absolutely agree with the phrase that Maru inspires, you cannot comprehend it, its so awesome.
On January 05 2018 23:28 Nakajin wrote: Never understood all the hype behind Maru, sure he has some nice moves but Byun and Gumiho also have those magic hands. Maybe it's because I started to follow SC2 at the start of 2014 so I never saw him live at his peak.
I am by no mean saying that he is a bad players of course he always stayed in the top of terran, but I really can't see how he "transcend terran". Still, well written article.
Gumiho? Gumiho isn't known for his mechanics nor micro. Even himself knew it as you can see in his WCS 2017 signature series vidéo.
Maru had some good micro centric TvZ on LotV, in the super tournament iirc, he still has his own signature style so the article is spot on about that. However I feel like Maru got put there for the narrative but in reality TY should have been there instead, he was the best performing terran at Blizzcon 2017 and there aren't enough data post patch to assess Maru as a potential savior of terrans.
Thanks for the article tho, hopefully I'm wrong and Maru comes back, gotta love these Prime terrans.
GumiGod was using mech and winning with it in 2014 onwards, long before INno adapted it for his use to lethal effect at the end of 2015. Only the likes of Samsung duo Reality and BrAvO were meching as much as him, but were unable to get many wins with it or had the innate knowledge and experience of Gumiho. He was somewhat unique in that, in my opinion, his bio was slightly weaker than his mech. In 2017 he completely changed his binds and looked at himself and made massive improvements. His effortless mech style in the GSL 2017 S2 finals vs soO epitomised his mech extraordinaire credentials.
On January 06 2018 02:15 iamkaokao wrote: i see terran beating zergs and protoss all day in the korean ladder streams they are fine , Maru has been off the playoffs or round of 16 for years, not even in the top 15 of Korea
Completely unrelated.
A 6.5k+ player will be matched with people even 1000 mmr below him. So thats why you see the stomps on stream for pro korean races. Tournament play is different. You dont hide behind a barcode, your opponent knows you inside out. You have days or sometimes week to prepare. The statistics show that there is a big problem with terran right know. It is actually not viable to be a Terran progamer which is so sad.
Top 10 earnings : 6 Terrans, 2 Zergs, 2 Protoss
Earnings is just a stupid way to judge balance. Some of the highest skill tournaments have $25K prize pools, and some lower skill ones have six figure prizes. Which race happens to earn the most is too random to mean anything
On January 06 2018 02:15 iamkaokao wrote: i see terran beating zergs and protoss all day in the korean ladder streams they are fine , Maru has been off the playoffs or round of 16 for years, not even in the top 15 of Korea
Completely unrelated.
A 6.5k+ player will be matched with people even 1000 mmr below him. So thats why you see the stomps on stream for pro korean races. Tournament play is different. You dont hide behind a barcode, your opponent knows you inside out. You have days or sometimes week to prepare. The statistics show that there is a big problem with terran right know. It is actually not viable to be a Terran progamer which is so sad.
Top 10 earnings : 6 Terrans, 2 Zergs, 2 Protoss
Earnings is just a stupid way to judge balance. Some of the highest skill tournaments have $25K prize pools, and some lower skill ones have six figure prizes. Which race happens to earn the most is too random to mean anything
Amen.
Not to mention, those are total career earnings. Balance has changed many, many times over the years.
On January 06 2018 02:15 iamkaokao wrote: i see terran beating zergs and protoss all day in the korean ladder streams they are fine , Maru has been off the playoffs or round of 16 for years, not even in the top 15 of Korea
Completely unrelated.
A 6.5k+ player will be matched with people even 1000 mmr below him. So thats why you see the stomps on stream for pro korean races. Tournament play is different. You dont hide behind a barcode, your opponent knows you inside out. You have days or sometimes week to prepare. The statistics show that there is a big problem with terran right know. It is actually not viable to be a Terran progamer which is so sad.
We always hear "give it more time!" and "let the meta evolve" when there's a problem ... but with barely two months since the design patch and two weeks since the recent tweaks somehow people are already going to this extent to claim that Terran is somehow massively under-powered.
Where's the proof? Terran has only one less than a completely even distribution in GSL and Innovation dominated his group as usual ... where's the win-rates or massive tournaments that show that Terran has problems?
Even with the recent changes, in the IEM qualifiers Inno 2-0'd herO ... currently the best PvT player in the world.
On January 07 2018 01:17 Edowyth wrote: Even with the recent changes, in the IEM qualifiers Inno 2-0'd herO ... currently the best PvT player in the world.
Really, what's the problem?
Some would say the fact herO's bullshit is considered the best PvT in the world is an indicator of balance in itself
Still though, you have to look at pro games overall and not isolated series/players. Many of the best players have managed to still win over balance issues (Dark, ByuL, Maru etc) doesn't mean the game was any less broken back then
On January 07 2018 01:17 Edowyth wrote: Does Terran need saving?
We always hear "give it more time!" and "let the meta evolve" when there's a problem ... but with barely two months since the design patch and two weeks since the recent tweaks somehow people are already going to this extent to claim that Terran is somehow massively under-powered.
Where's the proof? Terran has only one less than a completely even distribution in GSL and Innovation dominated his group as usual ... where's the win-rates or massive tournaments that show that Terran has problems?
Even with the recent changes, in the IEM qualifiers Inno 2-0'd herO ... currently the best PvT player in the world.
Really, what's the problem?
GSL distribution and balance are almost entirely independant, especially this GSL. Indeed, players had a loser bracket and could try to qualify two times, so they had like 4 lives before being not qualified. Add to that the fact that there are probably not much more than 32 pros in KR still at a pro level and you are almost guaranteed to see these 32 players qualify no matter what their race is.
As for terrans having problems, it's relatively well known nowadays.
On January 07 2018 02:05 IArako wrote: Terran is not fine, just check aligulac or anything for a sec.
53% PvT seems to be fine ...
If only 10 games had gone the other way in the last month, PvT in south korea would be exactly 50% ...
On January 07 2018 02:16 Fango wrote: Still though, you have to look at pro games overall and not isolated series/players.
Sure ... but I'm still not seeing the pro games that indicate a problem?
On January 07 2018 02:45 Poopi wrote: As for terrans having problems, it's relatively well known nowadays.
I don't care what you feel. I want evidence. Where's the problem. Where are the games that show that Terran struggles ... where are the tournaments where Terran is doing poorly?
The GSL distribution you say? The current GSL has exactly the same number of Terrans as 2017 Season 1 had for Protoss, when they were all whining about 3.8 changes. Qualifier TvP winrate was 44% this year, while PvT winrate last year was 45%.
So based on GSL alone, Terran is in the exact same spot as Protoss was last year.......before Libs and Mines got nerfed.
On January 07 2018 05:04 pvsnp wrote: The GSL distribution you say? The current GSL has exactly the same number of Terrans as 2017 Season 1 had for Protoss, when they were all whining about 3.8 changes. Qualifier TvP winrate was 44% this year, while PvT winrate last year was 45%.
So based on GSL alone, Terran is in the exact same spot as Protoss was last year.......before Libs and Mines got nerfed.
And?
I made no comparison between those periods and I'm not making a broad, reaching claim that Terran is perfectly balanced at this point ... I'm asking for evidence that it is not balanced.
This article acts as if this is a forgone conclusion, but provides only anecdotes with no real statistical evidence of such a claim. The onus is upon the person making the claim to justify it, not on me.
-----------------------
The GSL provides some evidence that what the article assumes isn't true.
I'm not here to prove that Terran is perfectly balanced in PvT ... I just find it extremely dubious to claim imbalance without providing any evidence. The article itself mentions the qualifiers as anecdotal evidence, but there's counter-claims there as well ... why should Special be considered a favorite to enter the GSL when he's always been noted as a person who has significant performance differences on different days ... or when the players who did defeat him were Korean ... or when he won every PvT he played???
Throw on to that the distribution being well within expectation and I wonder just what the OP sees that I do not. Where's this supposed imbalance that makes the author so confident to provide no evidence for his claim?
-----------------------
Does Terran need saving? I'm not convinced it does.
On January 07 2018 05:04 pvsnp wrote: The GSL distribution you say? The current GSL has exactly the same number of Terrans as 2017 Season 1 had for Protoss, when they were all whining about 3.8 changes. Qualifier TvP winrate was 44% this year, while PvT winrate last year was 45%.
So based on GSL alone, Terran is in the exact same spot as Protoss was last year.......before Libs and Mines got nerfed.
And?
I made no comparison between those periods and I'm not making a broad, reaching claim that Terran is perfectly balanced at this point ... I'm asking for evidence that it is not balanced.
This article acts as if this is a forgone conclusion, but provides only anecdotes with no real statistical evidence of such a claim. The onus is upon the person making the claim to justify it, not on me.
-----------------------
The GSL provides some evidence that what the article assumes isn't true.
I'm not here to prove that Terran is perfectly balanced in PvT ... I just find it extremely dubious to claim imbalance without providing any evidence. The article itself mentions the qualifiers as anecdotal evidence, but there's counter-claims there as well ... why should Special be considered a favorite to enter the GSL when he's always been noted as a person who has significant performance differences on different days ... or when the players who did defeat him were Korean ... or when he won every PvT he played???
Throw on to that the distribution being well within expectation and I wonder just what the OP sees that I do not. Where's this supposed imbalance that makes the author so confident to provide no evidence for his claim?
-----------------------
Does Terran need saving? I'm not convinced it does.
Mizenhauer is most likely assuming that his readers are familiar with forums' consensus of the current meta–which is to say that TvP is Protoss-favored (and PvZ is Zerg-favored, but that's besides the point). Unless you've been hibernating the past few weeks, you should be aware of that.
People cite all kind of sources, but a some searching for me yielded:
IEM Katowice Korean Qualifier TvP: 44% IEM Pyeongchang Korean Qualifier TvP: 36% GSL Qualifier TvP: 44%
Individually each of these pieces might be coincidence but when combined I would interpret them as saying the highest level of PvT is favors Protoss, and significantly at that.
On January 07 2018 05:04 pvsnp wrote: The GSL distribution you say? The current GSL has exactly the same number of Terrans as 2017 Season 1 had for Protoss, when they were all whining about 3.8 changes. Qualifier TvP winrate was 44% this year, while PvT winrate last year was 45%.
So based on GSL alone, Terran is in the exact same spot as Protoss was last year.......before Libs and Mines got nerfed.
And?
I made no comparison between those periods and I'm not making a broad, reaching claim that Terran is perfectly balanced at this point ... I'm asking for evidence that it is not balanced.
This article acts as if this is a forgone conclusion, but provides only anecdotes with no real statistical evidence of such a claim. The onus is upon the person making the claim to justify it, not on me.
-----------------------
The GSL provides some evidence that what the article assumes isn't true.
I'm not here to prove that Terran is perfectly balanced in PvT ... I just find it extremely dubious to claim imbalance without providing any evidence. The article itself mentions the qualifiers as anecdotal evidence, but there's counter-claims there as well ... why should Special be considered a favorite to enter the GSL when he's always been noted as a person who has significant performance differences on different days ... or when the players who did defeat him were Korean ... or when he won every PvT he played???
Throw on to that the distribution being well within expectation and I wonder just what the OP sees that I do not. Where's this supposed imbalance that makes the author so confident to provide no evidence for his claim?
-----------------------
Does Terran need saving? I'm not convinced it does.
Mizenhauer is most likely assuming that his readers are familiar with forums' consensus of the current meta–which is to say that TvP is Protoss-favored (and PvZ is Zerg-favored, but that's besides the point). Unless you've been hibernating the past few weeks, you should be aware of that.
People cite all kind of sources, but a some searching for me yielded:
IEM Katowice Korean Qualifier TvP: 44% IEM Pyeongchang Korean Qualifier TvP: 36% GSL Qualifier TvP: 44%
Individually each of these pieces might be coincidence but when combined I would interpret them as saying the highest level of PvT is favors Protoss, and significantly at that.
I have not been inactive at reading here on tl forums and this is the first time I see 2 out of those 3 collections of numbers. Thank you for collecting them.
People on this forum are not very good at citing sources but they are good at writing opinions. The most common source that I have witnessed is either 'game from a smallish tournament' or 'the stream of this one player', another common source is aligulac (followed by another person saying aligulac can't be used in that way). Another observation I have made is that the word 'numbers' is used as an argument without any actual numbers there, e.t. "just look at the numbers" and "the numbers are clear".
On January 07 2018 05:04 pvsnp wrote: The GSL distribution you say? The current GSL has exactly the same number of Terrans as 2017 Season 1 had for Protoss, when they were all whining about 3.8 changes. Qualifier TvP winrate was 44% this year, while PvT winrate last year was 45%.
So based on GSL alone, Terran is in the exact same spot as Protoss was last year.......before Libs and Mines got nerfed.
And?
I made no comparison between those periods and I'm not making a broad, reaching claim that Terran is perfectly balanced at this point ... I'm asking for evidence that it is not balanced.
This article acts as if this is a forgone conclusion, but provides only anecdotes with no real statistical evidence of such a claim. The onus is upon the person making the claim to justify it, not on me.
-----------------------
The GSL provides some evidence that what the article assumes isn't true.
I'm not here to prove that Terran is perfectly balanced in PvT ... I just find it extremely dubious to claim imbalance without providing any evidence. The article itself mentions the qualifiers as anecdotal evidence, but there's counter-claims there as well ... why should Special be considered a favorite to enter the GSL when he's always been noted as a person who has significant performance differences on different days ... or when the players who did defeat him were Korean ... or when he won every PvT he played???
Throw on to that the distribution being well within expectation and I wonder just what the OP sees that I do not. Where's this supposed imbalance that makes the author so confident to provide no evidence for his claim?
-----------------------
Does Terran need saving? I'm not convinced it does.
You realize that you can't statistically prove imbalance in a game like Starcraft, right? As for evidence, there you go: http://aligulac.com/players/63-TY/results/ TY losing to DnS (is this for real? t_t)... it's almost enough but the streak isn't over. He is at 8-19 since Blizzcon, and lost to mediocre (compared to his level at least) protoss such as Creator, DnS and Trap.
fun article. you can get buried in stats but it doesn't really matter, there's a perception out there and this is a fun article that builds up a game we all love and players we enjoy watching to be more than just nerds with mice and keyboards.
this is why I enjoy reading this website and following this game. it's why the finals are so much fun and I don't mind tastosis hyping their asses off.
it's makes the games even more entertaining when you look at them with this grandiose lens. just enjoy it, don't get bogged down.
On January 07 2018 09:46 pvsnp wrote: Mizenhauer is most likely assuming that his readers are familiar with forums' consensus of the current meta–which is to say that TvP is Protoss-favored (and PvZ is Zerg-favored, but that's besides the point). Unless you've been hibernating the past few weeks, you should be aware of that.
People cite all kind of sources, but a some searching for me yielded:
IEM Katowice Korean Qualifier TvP: 44% IEM Pyeongchang Korean Qualifier TvP: 36% GSL Qualifier TvP: 44%
Individually each of these pieces might be coincidence but when combined I would interpret them as saying the highest level of PvT is favors Protoss, and significantly at that.
Not surprisingly, I've been away for the holidays the last few weeks ... these numbers are things I haven't seen. Thanks for providing them.
Do you have any idea why Terran is struggling in the match-up? Are there particular builds that are too strong? Is Terran just too far behind from trying to defend with too little early-game power?
Terran can always save themselves, cause it's the race with the highest skill ceiling. This is not a good or bad thing for itself, it only means we have a bad SC2 design.
On January 07 2018 09:46 pvsnp wrote: Mizenhauer is most likely assuming that his readers are familiar with forums' consensus of the current meta–which is to say that TvP is Protoss-favored (and PvZ is Zerg-favored, but that's besides the point). Unless you've been hibernating the past few weeks, you should be aware of that.
People cite all kind of sources, but a some searching for me yielded:
IEM Katowice Korean Qualifier TvP: 44% IEM Pyeongchang Korean Qualifier TvP: 36% GSL Qualifier TvP: 44%
Individually each of these pieces might be coincidence but when combined I would interpret them as saying the highest level of PvT is favors Protoss, and significantly at that.
Not surprisingly, I've been away for the holidays the last few weeks ... these numbers are things I haven't seen. Thanks for providing them.
Do you have any idea why Terran is struggling in the match-up? Are there particular builds that are too strong? Is Terran just too far behind from trying to defend with too little early-game power?
Watching interview with TY and according to my own experiences during laddering it seems like main problem is with standard blink pressure build into fast 3rd and double forge. In current LotV iteration blink openers are mostly safe if you know what you are doing vs any Terran pressure/harass and even all-ins ( I tend to die vs cyclone all-ins from time to time but that's my mistake). Then you get 9 stalkers and have really strong pressure which also allows for taking 3rd. To this point it is quite similar to how Hots PvT did look like. However nowadays you just add 2 forges and charge and can withstand Terran attacks without collosus as you have stronger sniping on stalkers stronger charge on zelots and probably even finished 1/1 which usually wrecks Terran pushes. So this build is not only really strong by itself it also is really straight forward allows for safe transition to late game AOE of your choosing but also you may try to finish game right away with just 1/1 gateway army after beating Terran push. On top of that there is no (yet?) hard counter to this build nor all-in neither eco cheese. So there you go.
Give Liberators back +5 damage so that they start two-shotting gateway units at +1 air attack upgrades instead of +2. Seems like a fair trade for better stalkers and faster upgrades, and an overall weaker T early game post-patch.
On January 08 2018 02:06 Athenau wrote: Give Liberators back +5 damage so that they start two-shotting gateway units at +1 air attack upgrades instead of +2. Seems like a fair trade for better stalkers and faster upgrades, and an overall weaker T early game post-patch.
wtf, I thought the nerf was to +1 requirement. +2 is wrong.....
Well, it depends. Right now they two-shot adepts out of the gate, zealots at +1, and stalkers at +2. Adding +5 damage would mean they two-shot zealots immediately and stalkers at +1.
On January 07 2018 09:46 pvsnp wrote: Mizenhauer is most likely assuming that his readers are familiar with forums' consensus of the current meta–which is to say that TvP is Protoss-favored (and PvZ is Zerg-favored, but that's besides the point). Unless you've been hibernating the past few weeks, you should be aware of that.
People cite all kind of sources, but a some searching for me yielded:
IEM Katowice Korean Qualifier TvP: 44% IEM Pyeongchang Korean Qualifier TvP: 36% GSL Qualifier TvP: 44%
Individually each of these pieces might be coincidence but when combined I would interpret them as saying the highest level of PvT is favors Protoss, and significantly at that.
Not surprisingly, I've been away for the holidays the last few weeks ... these numbers are things I haven't seen. Thanks for providing them.
Do you have any idea why Terran is struggling in the match-up? Are there particular builds that are too strong? Is Terran just too far behind from trying to defend with too little early-game power?
I understand. Hope you enjoyed your holidays then! My own family gets a bit....suffocating (in a good way) after a week or two and I took advantage of free time for starcraft purposes.
From what I've seen I think the problem is twofold. Namely, Stalkers were buffed and WM were nerfed. While there is a great deal of whine about Stalkers these days I would tend to say the WM nerf has had much more influence.
To lay some groundwork, the standard PvT meta is gateway-heavy double forge with a couple immortals into storm. (If you want the specifics: https://lotv.spawningtool.com/build/63519/ )
At its core, the problem with the current PvT meta is that Terran lacks any reliable form of harass. Stargate openers were standard pre-4.0 for a reason. Without the need to invest in detection, Protoss is free to take a fast third with double forge while forcing Terran to turtle until stim with a handful of Stalkers (if bio-heavy) or deflecting medivacs with that same handful of Stalkers (if drop-heavy). When Terran finally does make a push, blink Stalkers whittle down the numbers until a superior-upgraded gateway-immortal army engages on home turf. Storm just seals the deal.
Incidentally, this same issue also plagues Terran in TvZ and is a major (if not critical) reason why mech is standard. For obvious reasons, mech is not an option in TvP.
TvP is not unwinnable by any means, but it definitely seems like an uphill battle. Terrans seem to be delaying the third for a heavier two-base push, or doing the opposite and taking a very fast third for a later push. I haven't seen much in the way of lategame.
Though TvP can seem hopeless, I suspect that the solution is smaller and simpler then many Terrans think. I'd say the new Stalker itself can be left untouched, since it is just as flimsy as ever in a fight. In the interest of PvZ, I would also shy away from Protoss nerfs. Straight buffing bio, ala marauder revert, is a very direct option that would circumvent the need to harass by just giving Terran a stronger bioball. Personally I would prefer something more subtle, for instance one of the following:
1. A WM cost reduction to encourage their new role a single-use splash rather than detection-forcers. Maybe 25 minerals, to 50/25?
2. Reducing stim research time, which would allow Terrans to move out sooner with bio instead of turtling in fear of Stalkers. Maybe 21 seconds, to 100?
On January 08 2018 06:12 pvsnp wrote: Though TvP can seem hopeless, I suspect that the solution is smaller and simpler then many Terrans think. I'd say the new Stalker itself can be left untouched, since it is just as flimsy as ever in a fight. In the interest of PvZ, I would also shy away from Protoss nerfs. Straight buffing bio, ala marauder revert, is a very direct option that would circumvent the need to harass by just giving Terran a stronger bioball. Personally I would prefer something more subtle, for instance one of the following:
1. A WM cost reduction to encourage their new role a single-use splash rather than detection-forcers. Maybe 25 minerals, to 50/25?
2. Reducing stim research time, which would allow Terrans to move out sooner with bio instead of turtling in fear of Stalkers. Maybe 21 seconds, to 100?
The second strikes me as particularly good. Terran has always had trouble in the early-game because bio simply sucks without having stim+concussive+cs.
Giving them that extra mobility and damage earlier seems perfectly fine with the recent buffs to blings and hydras as well as stalkers. I'd think that allowing Neosteel Frames to be individually upgraded (like overlord drop) might help with early defense as well, if needed.
On January 08 2018 18:43 Argonauta wrote: Why every article has to lead to a balance discussion? Cant we just enjoy the epic narrative of SC2 without thinking that much about numbers?
Terran needs saving article - this almost begs for a balance discussion
On January 08 2018 18:43 Argonauta wrote: Why every article has to lead to a balance discussion? Cant we just enjoy the epic narrative of SC2 without thinking that much about numbers?
Terran needs saving article - this almost begs for a balance discussion
I'll be disapointed if such an article don't bring balance discussion
I love this objective article, no fear to blame balance when balance is an issue, funny losira byul and no regret made it to GSL qualifers, no balance issue noooooooo for sure hahahahaha
On January 09 2018 04:10 beefITek wrote: I love this objective article, no fear to blame balance when balance is an issue, funny losira byul and no regret made it to GSL qualifers, no balance issue noooooooo for sure hahahahaha
Do you have links to the games so we can see how much patch-zerg are they? BEcause in the Group A I saw a really stunning performance of all the 3 non terran players. If these can get in, basically everyone can
I get the hype behind these two, but with all the design changes maybe it is time for Terran to play a bit differently. With all the complaints about Terran being weak after last patch, this GSL would sure be interesting.
Both TvZ and TvP feel so unfair at the moment, and watching the best Terran players in the world get crushed in the same ways that I do is so disheartening about the state these matchups.
I hope that blizzard helps to correct some of the "little" ways that terran feels underpowered: reverting widow mine nerf, reverting baneling + hydra health buffs (which will also help Protoss in PvZ), and nerfing parasitic bomb so that it doesn't make vikings evaporate in Mech vs zerg late game.
Maru's play coming into the round of 16 and his play at WESG have been in poor form - I don't think he will be our savior either. Here's hoping that at least TY can make it into the round of 8. I don't know what different play out of Terran is supposed to look like but hopefully we can get an idea from the remaining Terran players this GSL.
On February 10 2018 18:19 Iroijdik wrote: Maru's play coming into the round of 16 and his play at WESG have been in poor form - I don't think he will be our savior either. Here's hoping that at least TY can make it into the round of 8. I don't know what different play out of Terran is supposed to look like but hopefully we can get an idea from the remaining Terran players this GSL.
On February 10 2018 18:19 Iroijdik wrote: Maru's play coming into the round of 16 and his play at WESG have been in poor form - I don't think he will be our savior either. Here's hoping that at least TY can make it into the round of 8. I don't know what different play out of Terran is supposed to look like but hopefully we can get an idea from the remaining Terran players this GSL.
maru looked better than TY in WESG qual tbf
he looked awful in GSL though couldn't even play a real game had to proxy reaper his way out of the group
On February 10 2018 18:19 Iroijdik wrote: Maru's play coming into the round of 16 and his play at WESG have been in poor form - I don't think he will be our savior either. Here's hoping that at least TY can make it into the round of 8. I don't know what different play out of Terran is supposed to look like but hopefully we can get an idea from the remaining Terran players this GSL.
maru looked better than TY in WESG qual tbf
he looked awful in GSL though couldn't even play a real game had to proxy reaper his way out of the group
On February 10 2018 18:19 Iroijdik wrote: Maru's play coming into the round of 16 and his play at WESG have been in poor form - I don't think he will be our savior either. Here's hoping that at least TY can make it into the round of 8. I don't know what different play out of Terran is supposed to look like but hopefully we can get an idea from the remaining Terran players this GSL.
TY looks worse than Inno or Maru right now. His reluctance to all-in in TvP like everyone other terran probably hurts him
That being said TY has a much easier route to the ro8 anyway
On February 10 2018 23:02 Fango wrote: His reluctance to all-in in TvP like everyone other terran probably hurts him
That's just completely wrong. Like I have no idea why you'd say this about a player who hasn't taken a 3rd base against Protoss in tournament games this year.
Also Dark/aLive/soO is a much easier path to Ro8 than Leenock/Scarlett. Fucking lol.
On February 10 2018 23:02 Fango wrote: His reluctance to all-in in TvP like everyone other terran probably hurts him
Also Dark/aLive/soO is a much easier path to Ro8 than Leenock/Scarlett. Fucking lol.
I was thinking the same lol. TY has one of the sickest groups we have seen in years... (Meanwhile Inno cherrypicked his group and got bopped, which is pretty funny)
On February 10 2018 23:02 Fango wrote: His reluctance to all-in in TvP like everyone other terran probably hurts him
That's just completely wrong. Like I have no idea why you'd say this about a player who hasn't taken a 3rd base against Protoss in tournament games this year.
Also Dark/aLive/soO is a much easier path to Ro8 than Leenock/Scarlett. Fucking lol.
I'll admit I haven't seen many of his games, but doing all-ins has been a weakpoint for TY for a very long time. And his results against protoss since 4.0 have been complete shit for the most part.
I was more comparing TY's group to Maru's. soO can't ZvT to save his life, TY vs alive will almost certainly determine who goes through to the ro8. Whereas Gumiho/Dear/Classic is looking unbreakable for Maru.
On February 10 2018 23:02 Fango wrote: His reluctance to all-in in TvP like everyone other terran probably hurts him
Also Dark/aLive/soO is a much easier path to Ro8 than Leenock/Scarlett. Fucking lol.
I was thinking the same lol. TY has one of the sickest groups we have seen in years... (Meanwhile Inno cherrypicked his group and got bopped, which is pretty funny)
Inno was always going to lose to Protoss. Losing to zerg allins from Scarlett was not something he predicted though.
On February 11 2018 00:06 Fango wrote: And his results against protoss since 4.0 have been complete shit for the most part.
That goes for all the top Terrans. Most manage like 1 good run against good Protoss players and then mostly lose. Inno, Gumi, Maru, aLive, they're all sub-50% against high end Protosses so far.