On September 29 2018 21:45 allmotor1 wrote: what happened to all the rest of the proposed changes such as carriers and thors getting a buff vs capital ships etc?
I guess those had to go - Protoss is supposed to win when they get Carriers so the Carrier nerf was a slip-up in an otherwise flawless patch process.
On September 29 2018 21:45 allmotor1 wrote: what happened to all the rest of the proposed changes such as carriers and thors getting a buff vs capital ships etc?
This is all additional changes they will be making along side all of the earlier ones. The first paragraph of their press release say as much. They say in the notes any changes that will be replacing earlier changes.
Based on the feedback we received from the community as well as pro players, we decided to expand the scope of our initial balance proposal.
Balance team from diamond very bad. No one used battlecruisers - they will nerf battlecruisers. No one used ravens in TvZ and TvP - they will nerf ravens.
On September 30 2018 00:51 BRAT_OK wrote: Balance team from diamond very bad. No one used battlecruisers - they will nerf battlecruisers. No one used ravens in TvZ and TvP - they will nerf ravens.
On September 26 2018 05:24 Yonnua wrote: Well, that's a ridiculous and disappointing set of suggestions.
Protoss is currently lagging statistically behind by more than 10%, and behind zerg by more than 20%. Protoss has won only one Premier tournament all year, and PvZ specifically hasn't statistically fallen in favour of protoss since July 2016.
Meanwhile, Blizzard's priority is more nerfs to protoss, and specifically nerfs to make the game less fun and more difficult to play. The nerf to shield batteries for the sake of avoiding a niche and rare strategy comes at the cost of being able to defend against early aggression anywhere near as easily. The cavalier throwaway lines "this will reduce the number of Corrosive Biles it takes to destroy them from 7 to 5" but it "weaken[s] offensive usage while mostly maintaining their defensive power" shows how shortsighted and poorly thought out these changes are.
There is just no justification for this current line of changes; they can't be called balance changes because they will make the game less balanced.
After watching PiG's video I think Blizzard should look a bit more into some Protoss changes.
a) the shield battery nerf seems to harsh in defensive play. Maybe they can bind the shield battery's starting energy to the pylon power field.
b) the carrier seems to be complete garbage. I saw a few protoss going carriers on Nathanias stream, it was laughable, they have to bring back the graviton catapult upgrade in some form.
c) Tempests are super strong and I fear they will annihilate late game Liberator play in TvP, which will annihilate late game TvP as a whole (again). They have to nerf the movement speed so that vikings catch up in a reasonable amount of time. A middle ground between the current speed and the proposed one would be good, maybe 3.0.
On September 30 2018 22:31 Lexender wrote: "Toss is the lagging race"
Says as 7 out of 16 in Blizzcon are protoss and we just had a PvP finals.
yeah sos and classic cheesed out their opponents with dt's and adept rushes and immortal all ins after standard play failed and took the first major tournament won all year by a protoss player. Clearly we can ignore every other tournament and the thousands of games played and watch PvX devolve into sos dice roll being the standard play. Sign of a very healthy match up.
On September 30 2018 22:31 Lexender wrote: "Toss is the lagging race"
Says as 7 out of 16 in Blizzcon are protoss and we just had a PvP finals.
yeah sos and classic cheesed out their opponents with dt's and adept rushes and immortal all ins after standard play failed and took the first major tournament won all year by a protoss player. Clearly we can ignore every other tournament and the thousands of games played and watch PvX devolve into sos dice roll being the standard play. Sign of a very healthy match up.
I guess sOs and Classic took the reddit advices too literal and played just like Maru
Btw Stats won Super tournament 1 so this isn't the first protoss win at a major tournament this year. Also, 7 out of 16 players at Blizzcon will be Protoss.
They should focus on making the gameplay and unit interactions less cancerous, less annoying and frustrating. I think legacy of the void just went way too far in a lot of ways.
Sc2 needs to become a little bit more down to earth again. Nobody enjoys watching pro games end in a single move and nobody enjoys playing a game like this in the long run.
On September 30 2018 22:31 Lexender wrote: "Toss is the lagging race"
Says as 7 out of 16 in Blizzcon are protoss and we just had a PvP finals.
yeah sos and classic cheesed out their opponents with dt's and adept rushes and immortal all ins after standard play failed and took the first major tournament won all year by a protoss player. Clearly we can ignore every other tournament and the thousands of games played and watch PvX devolve into sos dice roll being the standard play. Sign of a very healthy match up.
I guess sOs and Classic took the reddit advices too literal and played just like Maru
Btw Stats won Super tournament 1 so this isn't the first protoss win at a major tournament this year. Also, 7 out of 16 players at Blizzcon will be Protoss.
Right, so we have 2 P wins, 7 Z wins, and 4 T wins. P still has far less tournament wins despite being in practically every final.
Also, the amount of P players in Blizzcon doesn't say much considering the top player in each region has more points than most other players combined. More P players means that of the lower top players, more of them were Protoss
Here's the point spread with Blizzcon race numbers and average points per player. 26,360 T 4 6590 30,330 Z 5 6066 33,770 P 7 4824 So yes, Protoss have more points, but if you look at the average number of points that these three races have per person, overall, Protoss has performed worse.
Last year
30,000 P 3 10,000 31,630 T 5 6,326 41,915 Z 8 5,238
It means that on average, P way outperformed their T and Z counter parts, but only a few did very well. Z overall did well, but they made up a lot of the lower ranks, and T did about average with an average number of points per player and 5 players.
On September 30 2018 22:31 Lexender wrote: "Toss is the lagging race"
Says as 7 out of 16 in Blizzcon are protoss and we just had a PvP finals.
yeah sos and classic cheesed out their opponents with dt's and adept rushes and immortal all ins after standard play failed and took the first major tournament won all year by a protoss player. Clearly we can ignore every other tournament and the thousands of games played and watch PvX devolve into sos dice roll being the standard play. Sign of a very healthy match up.
I guess sOs and Classic took the reddit advices too literal and played just like Maru
Btw Stats won Super tournament 1 so this isn't the first protoss win at a major tournament this year. Also, 7 out of 16 players at Blizzcon will be Protoss.
Right, so we have 2 P wins, 7 Z wins, and 4 T wins. P still has far less tournament wins despite being in practically every final.
Also, the amount of P players in Blizzcon doesn't say much considering the top player in each region has more points than most other players combined. More P players means that of the lower top players, more of them were Protoss
Here's the point spread with Blizzcon race numbers and average points per player. 26,360 T 4 6590 30,330 Z 5 6066 33,770 P 7 4824 So yes, Protoss have more points, but if you look at the average number of points that these three races have per person, overall, Protoss has performed worse.
Last year
30,000 P 3 10,000 31,630 T 5 6,326 41,915 Z 8 5,238
It means that on average, P way outperformed their T and Z counter parts, but only a few did very well. Z overall did well, but they made up a lot of the lower ranks, and T did about average with an average number of points per player and 5 players.
So protoss isn't the weakest race and balance is actually pretty good amongst all race, only exception being the zerg over reprentation we have had in the foreigner scene since forever and the fact that 2 players overperform the other pros.
On September 30 2018 22:31 Lexender wrote: "Toss is the lagging race"
Says as 7 out of 16 in Blizzcon are protoss and we just had a PvP finals.
yeah sos and classic cheesed out their opponents with dt's and adept rushes and immortal all ins after standard play failed and took the first major tournament won all year by a protoss player. Clearly we can ignore every other tournament and the thousands of games played and watch PvX devolve into sos dice roll being the standard play. Sign of a very healthy match up.
I guess sOs and Classic took the reddit advices too literal and played just like Maru
Btw Stats won Super tournament 1 so this isn't the first protoss win at a major tournament this year. Also, 7 out of 16 players at Blizzcon will be Protoss.
Right, so we have 2 P wins, 7 Z wins, and 4 T wins. P still has far less tournament wins despite being in practically every final.
Also, the amount of P players in Blizzcon doesn't say much considering the top player in each region has more points than most other players combined. More P players means that of the lower top players, more of them were Protoss
Here's the point spread with Blizzcon race numbers and average points per player. 26,360 T 4 6590 30,330 Z 5 6066 33,770 P 7 4824 So yes, Protoss have more points, but if you look at the average number of points that these three races have per person, overall, Protoss has performed worse.
Last year
30,000 P 3 10,000 31,630 T 5 6,326 41,915 Z 8 5,238
It means that on average, P way outperformed their T and Z counter parts, but only a few did very well. Z overall did well, but they made up a lot of the lower ranks, and T did about average with an average number of points per player and 5 players.
So protoss isn't the weakest race and balance is actually pretty good amongst all race, only exception being the zerg over reprentation we have had in the foreigner scene since forever and the fact that 2 players overperform the other pros.
Glad we cleared that up.
Actually, no that's not what the data says. It says T and Z on average do better than P at the highest level while P does better at a lower level. The fact that Maru and Serral are only one player balances itself out in the player average.
On September 30 2018 22:31 Lexender wrote: "Toss is the lagging race"
Says as 7 out of 16 in Blizzcon are protoss and we just had a PvP finals.
yeah sos and classic cheesed out their opponents with dt's and adept rushes and immortal all ins after standard play failed and took the first major tournament won all year by a protoss player. Clearly we can ignore every other tournament and the thousands of games played and watch PvX devolve into sos dice roll being the standard play. Sign of a very healthy match up.
I guess sOs and Classic took the reddit advices too literal and played just like Maru
Btw Stats won Super tournament 1 so this isn't the first protoss win at a major tournament this year. Also, 7 out of 16 players at Blizzcon will be Protoss.
Right, so we have 2 P wins, 7 Z wins, and 4 T wins. P still has far less tournament wins despite being in practically every final.
Also, the amount of P players in Blizzcon doesn't say much considering the top player in each region has more points than most other players combined. More P players means that of the lower top players, more of them were Protoss
Here's the point spread with Blizzcon race numbers and average points per player. 26,360 T 4 6590 30,330 Z 5 6066 33,770 P 7 4824 So yes, Protoss have more points, but if you look at the average number of points that these three races have per person, overall, Protoss has performed worse.
Last year
30,000 P 3 10,000 31,630 T 5 6,326 41,915 Z 8 5,238
It means that on average, P way outperformed their T and Z counter parts, but only a few did very well. Z overall did well, but they made up a lot of the lower ranks, and T did about average with an average number of points per player and 5 players.
So protoss isn't the weakest race and balance is actually pretty good amongst all race, only exception being the zerg over reprentation we have had in the foreigner scene since forever and the fact that 2 players overperform the other pros.
Glad we cleared that up.
Actually, no that's not what the data says. It says T and Z on average do better than P at the highest level while P does better at a lower level. The fact that Maru and Serral are only one player balances itself out in the player average.
Please, if you want to whine about balance dont use stats since they re not saying what you re trying to make them sound are saying. Protoss in Korea are doing well. Not in europe, no, but Korea is still the hardest server and competition and there Zerg is the most underrepresented, and Protoss are doing well. 4 out of the 8 people qualified are P.
GSL finals this season T>P T>P T>T GSL Super tournament P>Z P>P
GSL vs the world Foreign Zerg> Korean P
There is precisely one instance this year when a Korean zerg in a Korean competition made it to the finals, where he lost to P. Yes, Serral wiped the floor with the competition on the Circuit, that makes Zerg overall having a lot of wins in non-Korean events. Also Maru won 3 times in the GSL making Terran look good. The only race that consistently got into the finals and seminfals and wasnt just carried by a flag-bearing player this year is Protoss. Stats, sOs, Classic, Zest - four different players making it to the finals 5 different times this year.
I still think that changing hallucination to 75 energy is a dumb half-measure and that it needs to be 50. Then it would actually be useful for scouting since a hallucination can be sent as soon as the sentry is made (if changes have to be made to the hallucinations themselves to balance it then so be it). Better scouting would solve so many of the issues protoss has right now and would allow actual meaningful changes to be made to protoss. A good chunk of the stuff we see being abused by protoss players also happens to be stuff vital to protoss not dying to various all-ins and proxies that they can't reliably scout right now. Shield batteries are probably too good right now but without them protoss dies to a whole range of things.
i think with 50 energy hallucinations would give protoss too much scouting ability. With few sentries you can scout every minute. And there isn't much counter play to hallucination scouting. Maybe if hallucination duration or hp would be reduced, it would be good change.
That's what I mean by adjust the hallucinations to compensate. If the hallucinations had shorter durations or something like that they would still be quite useful. Even just long enough to scout the main of an opponent, it would be a massive improvement over what protoss has now, which is basically nothing until either the robo/stargate finishes or a sentry is built and is left to generate 100 energy, all of which are too late to be prepared for a lot of situations, especially proxies.
Also, terran scans are 50 energy so hallucinations become a bit of an equivalent. Spamming hallucination scouts wouldn't be good because each hallucination would sacrifice a forcefield, so it's a trade-off in the same way scans are.
I think overall I agree with your hallucination proposal, but I disagree with the justification you used for it. 1) adept shades are excellent early game scouting and gives almost all the information you could ask for (usually). 2) Equating a scan to a 50 energy hallucination is not fair in my opinion. A scan is -240 minerals for a terran who absolutely MUST mule in order to keep up economically with P and Z macro mechanics (Chrono/Injects). The sacrifice to scan economically costs much more than the 50 energy, so the sacrifice of a force field for near constant scouting is almost infinitely better.
Agree with you though that if they did reduce energy cost for hallu. than a change would be needed for the hallu. unit itself.
Blizzard have severely overestimated the effect of removing Graviton Catapult from the Carrier. The effect is very slight and typically only change the outcome of a battle by a few percent.
Carrier hit point increase combined with that Carriers are built much faster will have a much larger impact.
Currently you at least have a timing widow where you can can try to kill Protoss when they transition to Carriers. With the new build time that window is almost gone.
Combine this with Thors being even worse against Carriers (If you do not believe me, test it yourself) and the new super Tempest that can kite you to death. How are you even supposed to fight Tempest with HT support? Vikings will hardly even reach the kiting Tempest before being stormed to death.
I think we will not see a single TvP mech game at pro level. It will still be proxy all-in or 2-base all-ins or die trying. Every Terran will still avoid TvP late game like the plague.
How to solve all this? Do not increase the Carrier hit points. Let Thor keep their 2 native armor. Lower Tempest range to 13.
Even then mech would be weak in TvP but at least a little bit useful, maybe, on some maps.
I still think that changing hallucination to 75 energy is a dumb half-measure and that it needs to be 50. Then it would actually be useful for scouting since a hallucination can be sent as soon as the sentry is made (if changes have to be made to the hallucinations themselves to balance it then so be it). Better scouting would solve so many of the issues protoss has right now and would allow actual meaningful changes to be made to protoss. A good chunk of the stuff we see being abused by protoss players also happens to be stuff vital to protoss not dying to various all-ins and proxies that they can't reliably scout right now. Shield batteries are probably too good right now but without them protoss dies to a whole range of things.
i think with 50 energy hallucinations would give protoss too much scouting ability. With few sentries you can scout every minute. And there isn't much counter play to hallucination scouting. Maybe if hallucination duration or hp would be reduced, it would be good change.
That's what I mean by adjust the hallucinations to compensate. If the hallucinations had shorter durations or something like that they would still be quite useful. Even just long enough to scout the main of an opponent, it would be a massive improvement over what protoss has now, which is basically nothing until either the robo/stargate finishes or a sentry is built and is left to generate 100 energy, all of which are too late to be prepared for a lot of situations, especially proxies.
Also, terran scans are 50 energy so hallucinations become a bit of an equivalent. Spamming hallucination scouts wouldn't be good because each hallucination would sacrifice a forcefield, so it's a trade-off in the same way scans are.
I think overall I agree with your hallucination proposal, but I disagree with the justification you used for it. 1) adept shades are excellent early game scouting and gives almost all the information you could ask for (usually). 2) Equating a scan to a 50 energy hallucination is not fair in my opinion. A scan is -240 minerals for a terran who absolutely MUST mule in order to keep up economically with P and Z macro mechanics (Chrono/Injects). The sacrifice to scan economically costs much more than the 50 energy, so the sacrifice of a force field for near constant scouting is almost infinitely better.
Agree with you though that if they did reduce energy cost for hallu. than a change would be needed for the hallu. unit itself.
We can't compare scan to hallu because scan is unstoppable(and by definition hit or miss). Hallucination takes double the damage and can be countered, because many players send the hallucinations in patterns.
Both have their advantages and disadvantages, so comparing those two won't work. And the price was one factor in the history why player scouted by proxy raxing ;-)
I still think that changing hallucination to 75 energy is a dumb half-measure and that it needs to be 50. Then it would actually be useful for scouting since a hallucination can be sent as soon as the sentry is made (if changes have to be made to the hallucinations themselves to balance it then so be it). Better scouting would solve so many of the issues protoss has right now and would allow actual meaningful changes to be made to protoss. A good chunk of the stuff we see being abused by protoss players also happens to be stuff vital to protoss not dying to various all-ins and proxies that they can't reliably scout right now. Shield batteries are probably too good right now but without them protoss dies to a whole range of things.
i think with 50 energy hallucinations would give protoss too much scouting ability. With few sentries you can scout every minute. And there isn't much counter play to hallucination scouting. Maybe if hallucination duration or hp would be reduced, it would be good change.
That's what I mean by adjust the hallucinations to compensate. If the hallucinations had shorter durations or something like that they would still be quite useful. Even just long enough to scout the main of an opponent, it would be a massive improvement over what protoss has now, which is basically nothing until either the robo/stargate finishes or a sentry is built and is left to generate 100 energy, all of which are too late to be prepared for a lot of situations, especially proxies.
Also, terran scans are 50 energy so hallucinations become a bit of an equivalent. Spamming hallucination scouts wouldn't be good because each hallucination would sacrifice a forcefield, so it's a trade-off in the same way scans are.
I think overall I agree with your hallucination proposal, but I disagree with the justification you used for it. 1) adept shades are excellent early game scouting and gives almost all the information you could ask for (usually). 2) Equating a scan to a 50 energy hallucination is not fair in my opinion. A scan is -240 minerals for a terran who absolutely MUST mule in order to keep up economically with P and Z macro mechanics (Chrono/Injects). The sacrifice to scan economically costs much more than the 50 energy, so the sacrifice of a force field for near constant scouting is almost infinitely better.
Agree with you though that if they did reduce energy cost for hallu. than a change would be needed for the hallu. unit itself.
We can't compare scan to hallu because scan is unstoppable(and by definition hit or miss). Hallucination takes double the damage and can be countered, because many players send the hallucinations in patterns.
Both have their advantages and disadvantages, so comparing those two won't work. And the price was one factor in the history why player scouted by proxy raxing ;-)