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Important note All tests were done with maximum upgrades on all sides.
Background Me and a friend run several tests on the unit test map before the patch. As soon as the patch got live we repeated the same tests with the new stats. We did each test 4 times and microed each side two times. We avoided using terrain or using the carrier leach range, instead we wanted to check the results in a straight up battle. All tests are done with maximum upgrades for both sides.
We also did not include storm, disruptors, archons etc in order to not make the result harder to interpret. We just wanted to know if pure Carrier got easier to counter after the patch.
We are both Dimond players so our micro is very basic, but you can still see the difference between pre and post patch Carriers.
Results 1 Carrier vs 3 Vikings Pre patch: Even, sometimes the Carrier wins with a few hit points, sometimes a lone Viking with a few hit points. Post patch: The Carrier wins with about 24 hit points left.
1 Carrier vs 1 Thor Pre patch: Thor win with 112 hit points Post patch: Thor win with 101 hit points.
1 Carrier vs 2 Cyclone Pre: Carrier with 120 hitpoints Post: One cyclone with 88 hitpoints.
1 Carrier vs 1 BC Pre: BC with 438 hitpoints. Post: BC with 341 hitpoints.
10 Carriers vs 10 Liberator and 10 Vikings, trying to kill the interceptors first: Pre: All Carriers left, all terran units dead Post: Almost all Carriers left, all terran units dead
10 Carriers vs 20 Liberators, trying to kill the interceptors first Pre: 2 Carriers left Post: 10 Liberators left
10 Carriers (and 2 observers) vs 15 widow mines, 5 Thors Pre: 4 Carriers Post: Results varied a lot, between 4 Carriers left to 3 Thors left
10 Carriers vs 10 Thors, trying to kill the Carriers first: Pre: 3 Thors left Post 3.5 Thors left
10 Carriers vs 10 Thors, splash mode killing interceptors for half the battle, then single target mode Pre: 4 Carriers left Post: 6 Carriers left
Since cyclones did well against carrier in low number, we decided to test 10 Carriers vs 20 cyclones. We used the rapid-fire trick to make sure all Cyclones were firing. We did not have any pre-data for this. Post: 4 Carriers left
Conclusion Carrier are stronger vs vikings, thors and bc in low number compared to pre patch. Carriers in high number still beat viking/liberators.
Liberators in very high number do beat Carriers. The problem here is that 1-2 storms would make the Carriers win by a large margin.
Thors do ok vs Carriers in high number if Carriers do not abuse terrain or leach mode. Thors should always use the single target mode when fighting Carriers.
We expected widow mines to do better post patch since interceptors take more time to rebuild but for some reason widow mines were not as effective as we imagined. Results when widow mines were used also varied very much.
Cyclones while good vs low number of Carriers are not good vs Carriers in higher number.
Overall the Carrier change was a disappointment. We had hoped that Carriers would be easier to counter but the only working counters have very strong weaknesses. Thors work if terrain is good, no disruptors are present, and Carrier are not using leach range. BC work except the new Tempest are very good against BCs. Liberators work but you need very high number of liberators, making them very vulnerable to splash damage.
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cool
User was warned for this post
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Why not trying with stimmed marines?
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Parting is playing with carriers now on stream. He just lost a fight with about 10 carriers with gateway units to a roach/hydra army. The interceptor build time is a bigger deal than people seem to think. He lost most of his interceptors and was just dead because the zerg brought in more hydras before he could rebuild his interceptors.
For terran, I imagine having even a small group of marines specifically built to target the interceptors could change carrier versus terran fights drastically.
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PartinG just lost a game where he had like 10 carriers with battery and sentry support and still lost to the hydra/ravager push of a 5.6k NA zerg. Those intercepters launch so slow they can't do anything before dying.
I know u are testing about PVT But still carriers are used much more in PVZ than PVT where they're supposed to be the endgame unit, not anymore it seems with this patch. I don't mean to say they should be invincible But they shouldn't be losing to pure hydras which cost way less resources and tech
As for PVT, stim marines should work similar to hydras, even better I assume. Of course storms kill marines but by that time Terran should Have ghosts as well so It should be winnable.
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protoss building nothing but carriers and HTs is a problem but beside that everything is fine... you need to kill all the interceptors to zone carriers out and push protoss base to force a fight otherwise liberators are food for HTs against zerg is fine tho because now protoss only want to build tempests to counter broodlords.there was no reliable options for broodlords in pre-new patch due to tempests got overnerfed while also didn't help mech in TvP at all
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is it considered trolling or a personal attack if i point out for credibility reasons that this guy has a long history of bans for balance whining and that his last "patch analysis" thread was eviscerated by multiple people + closed by a mod for having incoherent math? i genuinely don't mean it as an ad hominem, i just think people who read his claims should know his history before deciding whether they agree.
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what terran loses to carriers?
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The old carrier's launches 1 interceptor every 0.5 second, and graviton catapult upgrade would allows the carrier to launch 4 interceptors in the same time, which does 40 damage against 0 armor enemy unit. This 40 damage will not kill any single opposite unit in a 1 vs X situation, which makes little effect on overall result. However, if you have 10 carriers, they would launch 40 interceptors in 0.5 second and do 400 damage, enough to kill several units in this short time, and dead enemy units do not return fire at all.
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What is Carrier "Leach Mode"?
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On November 21 2018 15:08 getg00d wrote: What is Carrier "Leach Mode"? Carrier is still 8 range for launch 14 range "leash". You need to get within 8 range for it to launch interceptors toward to begin attack (that target). You can assign a new target within 14 range and quickly (right click) move the carrier itself back to stop carrier from approaching 8 range of the new target (and eat flak fire). I got called by a certain Terran cursing how carrier have "infinite range". Yes the old carrier will cleanse a medivac that cross its path, not sure about the new one with changes to boost and catapults.
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On November 21 2018 15:48 Odowan Paleolithic wrote: Carrier is still 8 range for launch 14 range "leash". You need to get within 8 range for it to launch interceptors toward to begin attack (that target). You can assign a new target within 14 range and quickly (right click) move the carrier itself back to stop carrier from approaching 8 range of the new target (and eat flak fire). I got called by a certain Terran cursing how carrier have "infinite range". Yes the old carrier will cleanse a medivac that cross its path, not sure about the new one with changes to boost and catapults. Right on, ty
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We did some additional testing with the Thor/widow mine combo. First, we adjusted the composition to 10 Carriers (and 2 observers) vs 8 Thors and 10 widow mines.
Previously when we tested, we used these two approaches:
a) First run in the widow mines and let them kill some interceptors. Then use the single target mode to focus down the carriers OR
b) First run in the widow mines to kill the interceptors. Simultaneously using Thor splash damage to kill interceptors. And finally switching to Thor single target mode to focus down the carriers. a) yielded better results than b) but neither seemed to be very efficient.
Now we tested a different approach that got much better results than both a) and b): First run in the widow mines and kill the interceptors. Simultaneously using Thor is single target mode to kill interceptors. Then focus down the Carriers one by one. This consistently got results were about 5 Thors survived the battle.
It is very counter intuitive that single target mode is better vs interceptors then splash mode. But Thors 2-shots the interceptors. This combined with the widow mines killing a large portion of the interceptors early in the battle seems to be the best way to use the Thor/widow mine combo against Carriers.
The key here is that while splash mode is more efficient at killing interceptors in high number, single target mode is better at killing interceptors in low numbers. And since the widow mines reduce the interceptor number a lot, single mode becomes the best solution.
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Oh yeah you guys totally not biased...
You realize that carriers are the most expenxive high tech units protoss can make? And you whine that they are not totally hardcountered by much lower tech mines and thors?
I juts ran some tests: 9 carriers vs 40 hydras, the hydras costing slightly less resources overall and zero attack/armor upgrade:
22 Hydras left, WITHOUT micro.
Another test: 9 carriers vs 82 marines, the marines ONLY MATCH THE MINERAL COST of the carriers, so overall probably worth half or less of carriers resources, no upgrades except for combat shield, no stim used:
62 marines survive.
So I would say the carrier is now officially dead. Terran can use tier 1 units with no micro or upgrades to counter protoss tier 3 unit and zerg can do it with pure tier 2 units (despite being just nerfed in attack).
They only way to use carrier effectively now is probably to use them with lots of meat shields and storm so that the interceptors dont get shot down while launching and then to pull back once too many are dead because they rebuild SOOOO SLOWLY.
At the same time BCs now became the ultimate super end game unit, they basically defeat anything now while being microed back, especially ground units are doomed against them, and of course they can teleport away when dying.
I think the interceptor cost needs to be reduced again or more likely, interceptor build time and launch speed buffed, otherwise carriers are probably most useful as support.
And this whole thread is a farce, you didnt even post resource costs or consider technological tiers. Carriers are basically countered by everything now, cost for cost and considering that they are the highest tier it's a disgrace.
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On November 21 2018 23:40 Freeborn wrote: Oh yeah you guys totally not biased...
You realize that carriers are the most expenxive high tech units protoss can make? And you whine that they are not totally hardcountered by much lower tech mines and thors?
I juts ran some tests: 9 carriers vs 40 hydras, the hydras costing slightly less resources overall and zero attack/armor upgrade:
22 Hydras left, WITHOUT micro.
Another test: 9 carriers vs 82 marines, the marines ONLY MATCH THE MINERAL COST of the carriers, so overall probably worth half or less of carriers resources, no upgrades except for combat shield, no stim used:
62 marines survive.
So I would say the carrier is now officially dead. Terran can use tier 1 units with no micro or upgrades to counter protoss tier 3 unit and zerg can do it with pure tier 2 units (despite being just nerfed in attack).
They only way to use carrier effectively now is probably to use them with lots of meat shields and storm so that the interceptors dont get shot down while launching and then to pull back once too many are dead because they rebuild SOOOO SLOWLY.
At the same time BCs now became the ultimate super end game unit, they basically defeat anything now while being microed back, especially ground units are doomed against them, and of course they can teleport away when dying.
I think the interceptor cost needs to be reduced again or more likely, interceptor build time and launch speed buffed, otherwise carriers are probably most useful as support.
And this whole thread is a farce, you didnt even post resource costs or consider technological tiers. Carriers are basically countered by everything now, cost for cost and considering that they are the highest tier it's a disgrace. Wait... you're telling me a carrier mono-composition won't be viable and you have to combine them with other units!? What a tragedy
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On November 21 2018 23:48 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2018 23:40 Freeborn wrote: Oh yeah you guys totally not biased...
You realize that carriers are the most expenxive high tech units protoss can make? And you whine that they are not totally hardcountered by much lower tech mines and thors?
I juts ran some tests: 9 carriers vs 40 hydras, the hydras costing slightly less resources overall and zero attack/armor upgrade:
22 Hydras left, WITHOUT micro.
Another test: 9 carriers vs 82 marines, the marines ONLY MATCH THE MINERAL COST of the carriers, so overall probably worth half or less of carriers resources, no upgrades except for combat shield, no stim used:
62 marines survive.
So I would say the carrier is now officially dead. Terran can use tier 1 units with no micro or upgrades to counter protoss tier 3 unit and zerg can do it with pure tier 2 units (despite being just nerfed in attack).
They only way to use carrier effectively now is probably to use them with lots of meat shields and storm so that the interceptors dont get shot down while launching and then to pull back once too many are dead because they rebuild SOOOO SLOWLY.
At the same time BCs now became the ultimate super end game unit, they basically defeat anything now while being microed back, especially ground units are doomed against them, and of course they can teleport away when dying.
I think the interceptor cost needs to be reduced again or more likely, interceptor build time and launch speed buffed, otherwise carriers are probably most useful as support.
And this whole thread is a farce, you didnt even post resource costs or consider technological tiers. Carriers are basically countered by everything now, cost for cost and considering that they are the highest tier it's a disgrace. Wait... you're telling me a carrier mono-composition won't be viable and you have to combine them with other units!? What a tragedy
I'm telling you that a tier 3 air unit mono-composition is beat by almost any other lower tier unit mono-composition that can hit air, value for value, without micro.
Does that really make sense to you? Or is your bias tinting your sight too much?
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the solution is simple, only attack with carriers if there are shield batteries underneath to help keep the interceptors alive
thus one must slowly inch shield batteries across the map, eventually winning with carriers. it will be the protoss version of creep
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So what, brood lords can be spanked by marines, as well as hydras or stalkers as long as there is no support to the broods.
Units, especially high tech units, shouldn't be massable.
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Pure carriers themselves only is not strong, it is the archons and high templars under them make skytoss strong.
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