Solar Tweeting about the Region Lock - Page 2
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Hvvacha
79 Posts
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Parser
Italy77 Posts
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On December 13 2018 19:42 Hvvacha wrote: it also wasn't fair for foreigners when koreans was able to play, now when there's no teams to support them, they speak about it. So because this almost killed the foreigner scene and Blizzard had to put it on a life support we will almost kill the Korean scene and put it on a life support too? Does this really make sense to you, or are you just this angry and vindicative? On December 13 2018 20:27 Parser wrote: I am for keeping the region lock as it is. There hasn't been new blood in korea for years, nor sponsors, so i don't see any reason to sustain a scene that is not involved in sc2 at all. Instead western scene is quite active. There is no need of koreans to have a future for sc2. Was discussed in the past, some TL people brought the new blood names, some of these new players were kicked from GSL qualifiers by the foreigners. But hey, let's kill the Korean scene and be happy with only foreigners, let's see how long they can survive without Blizzard money... (spoiler - they won't survive without Blizzard paying for WCS) | ||
Xophy
Germany77 Posts
On December 13 2018 18:32 Waxangel wrote: + Show Spoiler + On December 13 2018 18:30 Fango wrote: Admittedly I don't think they've explicitly said it's a "fair" system, but they seem to believe that having foreigners play in both regions, while koreans are restricted, is perfectly fine and not an issue. I agree that was a painfully tone-deaf comment from Kim (who's not directly involved in SC2 esports anymore, AFAIK), one that the SC2 esports team probably wishes she could have phrased better. Technically, that statement is true, right? The problem in this whole discussion is that you compare two very different tournaments: WCS as a weekender and GSL as a tournament which lasts for several weeks (or even months). That is, there is a natural barrier preventing (or at least making it less attractive for) foreigners to compete in GSL, i.e. having to live in Korea for an extended period of time. What the region lock does is creating an artificial obstacle similar to this, i.e. having to live in one of the eligible countries in order to being able to compete in WCS. I admit that the current solution is not perfect. However, we have to compare it to possible counterfactuals: i) Removing region lock: Now we do have an unfair system: There is an obstacle for foreigners competing in GSL, but not for Koreans to compete in WCS (except for lack while qualifying cross-servers). Any argument based on "but theoretically it is more fair because Foreigners can compete in GSL and Koreans can compete in WCS" is wrong; simply comparing costs of participation should reveal that the hurdles for Foreigners to compete in GSL are much higher compared to Koreans participating in WCS. ii) Removing region lock, forcing players to decide between GSL and WCS: Might be a possibility. A priori I think it is difficult to assess the outcomes of this scenario, because there are multiple "equilibria": Would only "bad" Koreans choose WCS? Or would some of the better Koreans also leave for WCS in order to avoid tough competition in GSL? It also depends on if players have to decide for the whole year (i.e. the first tournament they qualify for/participate in locks them in for the rest of the year), or only for one cycle. If it is for the whole year, I guess it is highly unlikely that any Foreigner will choose GSL over WCS for two reasons: first, competition will (probably) still be higher in GSL, thus there is a higher risk without additional (monetary) reward. Second, even if Foreigners would succeed in GSL, this is combined with much higher costs (i.e. having to live in Korea for a looooong time). If it is only for one cycle (i.e. GSL S1/WCS S1, then GSL S2/WCS S2, and so on) and players have to decide in which tournament they would like to compete before they qualify, that could be a sensible solution. If a foreigner has already qualified for Global Finals, e.g. by winning WCS S1, there is much less risk involved in trying out GSL S2. It might still be not a perfect solution, but perhaps a good compromise for both Koreans and Foreigners. Edit: Forgot about option 3: Complete region lock, i.e. Foreigners are not allowed to compete in GSL. In terms of fairness, this is obviously the best solution (except for the part that Foreigners have an easier path to qualify for Global Finals). | ||
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
I think this is the wrong way to go, even though others seem to agree with this (Serral included). Just ending region lock altogether would be much better, and everybody could benifit from Korean starcraft in its last years of glory (training in Korea and participating in GSL for players; watching the best at every tournament for the fans). | ||
sneakyfox
8216 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8805 Posts
On December 13 2018 20:54 Xophy wrote: Technically, that statement is true, right? The problem in this whole discussion is that you compare two very different tournaments: WCS as a weekender and GSL as a tournament which lasts for several weeks (or even months). That is, there is a natural barrier preventing (or at least making it less attractive for) foreigners to compete in GSL, i.e. having to live in Korea for an extended period of time. What the region lock does is creating an artificial obstacle similar to this, i.e. having to live in one of the eligible countries in order to being able to compete in WCS. The requirements are vastly different. It's not financially or logistically viable for most koreans to move to WCS. Ragnarok has been trying for ages with the support of Psistorm and still hasn't managed to. The only barrier to foreigners playing in GSL events is the time/dedication, and obviously money for flights/living while there. And even if koreans do transfer, they can no longer play live in korea/play in GSL at the same time, unlike foreigners. | ||
Psychobabas
2531 Posts
They can stop GSL participation, that's fine by me. | ||
i-MajiN
France113 Posts
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fLyiNgDroNe
Belgium3958 Posts
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Xophy
Germany77 Posts
On December 13 2018 21:06 Fango wrote: The requirements are vastly different. It's not financially or logistically viable for most koreans to move to WCS. Ragnarok has been trying for ages with the support of Psistorm and still hasn't managed to. The only barrier to foreigners playing in GSL events is the time/dedication, and obviously money for flights/living while there. And even if koreans do transfer, they can no longer play live in korea/play in GSL at the same time, unlike foreigners. Ok, so let's have a look at the financial and logistical requirements for Foreigners competing in GSL and Koreans competing in WCS: Foreigners in GSL (Example: Neeb in GSL S3): First Match: July 21st Second Match: August 15th Third Match: August 29th Fourth Match: September 5th Finals would have been on September 15th So, Neeb had to either live for roughly 2 month in Korea or he would have to fly in 5 times in 2 month. There are no additional legal requirements for WCS players afaik. Koreans competing in WCS (qualifying foreign resident): Have to live in the chosen circuit country for one month prior to the first match played. Lets take WCS Montreal and the North American Qualifier as an example: First match would have been July 24th, thus a Korean would have to be in the US since June 24th. The Finals of WCS Montreal were played on September 9th. Therefore, we have an additional 3 weeks a Korean has to live in the US (compared to a Foreigner competing in GSL) to participate in WCS Monreal. A difference, but certainly not one that is the most problematic. Additionally, qualifying foreign residents are allowed to leave the chosen circuit country for five weeks only for non-competitive reasons. Thus, Koreans cannot play in WCS and GSL at the same time. This is a real disadvantage which should be addressed. To sum up: A requirement of 3 additional weeks of residency in the chosen country. And the missed opportunity of playing in GSL at the same time. Apart from that, I fail to see other logisitical or financial requirements for Koreans. And as I said, I think it is bad to prohibit Koreans from participating in GSL and WCS at the same time while allowing it for Foreigners. Conclusion: either allow both Foreigners and Koreans to participate in GSL and WCS at the same time (while upholding other restrictions), or implement the system I described above where players have to chose the tournament they want to participate in before qualifying. | ||
SinO[Ob]
France897 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8805 Posts
The fact that they can't live in korea or compete in GSL at the same time is also important. It's not worth moving just to play in WCS unless you can get a rich team/sponsor to support you doing it. As far as foreigners in GSL, they aren't really any restrictions other than time dedicated. Even then, some foreigners fly in just for qualifiers and see if they get in, and some live in korea almost year round and simply fly out to WCS events when they need to. | ||
nimdil
Poland3743 Posts
Region lock might be unfair but on the other hand Koreans have top tier tournament for themselves essentially at home. Not really fair. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On December 13 2018 22:11 nimdil wrote: If you want to remove region lock, just end GSL and make one of the WCS events in Seoul or relatively near it (Taipei, Hong Kong). Region lock might be unfair but on the other hand Koreans have top tier tournament for themselves essentially at home. Not really fair. Sure, why not, most Koreans are at the army gates anyway On December 13 2018 21:48 Xophy wrote: Ok, so let's have a look at the financial and logistical requirements for Foreigners competing in GSL and Koreans competing in WCS: Foreigners in GSL (Example: Neeb in GSL S3): First Match: July 21st Second Match: August 15th Third Match: August 29th Fourth Match: September 5th Finals would have been on September 15th So, Neeb had to either live for roughly 2 month in Korea or he would have to fly in 5 times in 2 month. There are no additional legal requirements for WCS players afaik. Koreans competing in WCS (qualifying foreign resident): Have to live in the chosen circuit country for one month prior to the first match played. Lets take WCS Montreal and the North American Qualifier as an example: First match would have been July 24th, thus a Korean would have to be in the US since June 24th. The Finals of WCS Montreal were played on September 9th. Therefore, we have an additional 3 weeks a Korean has to live in the US (compared to a Foreigner competing in GSL) to participate in WCS Monreal. A difference, but certainly not one that is the most problematic. Additionally, qualifying foreign residents are allowed to leave the chosen circuit country for five weeks only for non-competitive reasons. Thus, Koreans cannot play in WCS and GSL at the same time. This is a real disadvantage which should be addressed. To sum up: A requirement of 3 additional weeks of residency in the chosen country. And the missed opportunity of playing in GSL at the same time. Apart from that, I fail to see other logisitical or financial requirements for Koreans. And as I said, I think it is bad to prohibit Koreans from participating in GSL and WCS at the same time while allowing it for Foreigners. Conclusion: either allow both Foreigners and Koreans to participate in GSL and WCS at the same time (while upholding other restrictions), or implement the system I described above where players have to chose the tournament they want to participate in before qualifying. You missed the visa process which is painful and expensive. Give the visa process to the GSL requirements and give the living time to the GSL requirements and it's equal(because then most foreigners won't be able to attend WCS & GSL at the same time because they won't be able to leave the Korea). Same rules for everyone, don't base rules on the origin. | ||
Xophy
Germany77 Posts
On December 13 2018 22:03 Fango wrote: Moving your entire life to a different country for 47/52 weeks of the year is a bigger financial and logistical barrier than you think. Ragnarok has been trying to sort a visa out for most of 2018 and still hasn't been able to do so. It took TRUE several months (?) and some degree of financial support from Psistorm to be able to. The fact that they can't live in korea or compete in GSL at the same time is also important. It's not worth moving just to play in WCS unless you can get a rich team/sponsor to support you doing it. As far as foreigners in GSL, they aren't really any restrictions other than time dedicated. Even then, some foreigners fly in just for qualifiers and see if they get in, and some live in korea almost year round and simply fly out to WCS events when they need to. As I said, forbidding Koreans to compete in both GSL and WCS at the same time is bad. However, I do not see how financial/logistical barriers do not exist for Foreigners, too. You have to pay for flights, accommodation etc. and you probably also have to get a working visa. Thus, just focusing on time dedicated isn't really useful. And if you simply remove region lock, we again have an unfair system in which it is much easier for Koreans to compete in WCS than the other way around. | ||
deacon.frost
Czech Republic12116 Posts
On December 13 2018 22:30 Xophy wrote: As I said, forbidding Koreans to compete in both GSL and WCS at the same time is bad. However, I do not see how financial/logistical barriers do not exist for Foreigners, too. You have to pay for flights, accommodation etc. and you probably also have to get a working visa. Thus, just focusing on time dedicated isn't really useful. And if you simply remove region lock, we again have an unfair system in which it is much easier for Koreans to compete in WCS than the other way around. Probably getting working visa vs an expensive longterm painful process we know exists. C'mon... | ||
Rodya
546 Posts
All I care about is the objective level of play. It has deteriorated over the last few years. This isn't just my opinion, several pro gamers have said this as well. Foreigners have had so much advantages for years now and only one of them seems to be able to get close to the level of previous Koreans. It delegitimizes their efforts too playing against Koreans that are weaker thanthey were in 2015. Scarlett is still the greatest foreigner of all time in my opinion and I don't think it's close. The pro scene is just not as strong as it used to be. Sc2 will be dead in Korea soon unless something happens - brood war is way more popular. Once sc2 dies in Korea people will stop playing it because it will be labeled the casual, noob starcaft even more than it already is. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8764 Posts
On December 13 2018 17:42 Zob wrote: What if the Korean SC 2 Pros would engage a lawyer. I mean on what legal right is any player excluded from special events? No way that ever goes everywhere, sports organization exclude/include participant base on nationalities, age, gender all the time it's fair to assume they have every single legal right to do it. And even if there was a case to be made having a legal battle with a multinational company on another continent is a terrible idea, especially when that multinational is also the only thing that keep the GSL alive. | ||
WeakOwl
25 Posts
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