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On February 03 2019 19:51 seemsgood wrote: it''s so fucking sad to see terran players still pulling the bois in TvP but tbh i highly doubt they could ferret out how to nerf chrono boost without letting protoss die to zerglings and tanks push
This is the big issue. They've somewhat painted themselves into a corner with balancing protoss, and we've ended up at a situation where there are several things that could use changing, but doing so without massive changes to other aspects of protoss would break the game for protoss. People want chronoboost nerfed, but without it as is, there's a bunch of timings that would be insanely hard to hold. These one and two base tanks pushes are manageable right now but with an even slightly weaker economy, it could tip them into being too good like in the 1/1/1 era.
It's the same deal with protoss mass air. It sucks. It's not a fun strategy to use or play against. As it stands though, any substantial change to nerf mass air would leave protoss opened to getting rolled by mech and brood lord compositions every game since protoss ground can't effectively fight either of those compositions from the ground.
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On February 05 2019 00:38 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2019 19:51 seemsgood wrote: it''s so fucking sad to see terran players still pulling the bois in TvP but tbh i highly doubt they could ferret out how to nerf chrono boost without letting protoss die to zerglings and tanks push
This is the big issue. They've somewhat painted themselves into a corner with balancing protoss, and we've ended up at a situation where there are several things that could use changing, but doing so without massive changes to other aspects of protoss would break the game for protoss. People want chronoboost nerfed, but without it as is, there's a bunch of timings that would be insanely hard to hold. These one and two base tanks pushes are manageable right now but with an even slightly weaker economy, it could tip them into being too good like in the 1/1/1 era. It's the same deal with protoss mass air. It sucks. It's not a fun strategy to use or play against. As it stands though, any substantial change to nerf mass air would leave protoss opened to getting rolled by mech and brood lord compositions every game since protoss ground can't effectively fight either of those compositions from the ground.
The problem is that Blizzard tinkered A LOT with balance/design/unit interaction, but instead of stabilizing the gameplay and maintaining (at least, if not improving) quality we’re now stuck with this - sorry to call it that, but it’s exactly how I feel about it - “clusterfuck” that is modern SC2.
I had my hopes up throughout the years that one day this game would just be finally done - no more experimenting and creating new problems again and again in the process. God, I just hate LotV from a multiplayer perspective - one day you read about 1-2 potential changes, which you think could really make for a better game, when suddenly there appears a patch proposal out of somebody’s ass that brings a load of complete and utter BS changes with it and after a mere week of underwhelming feedback this hot garbage happens to go live unaltered.
At this point I always get sad they killed off the separate ladders.
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I think only two changes are really necessary 1) Something that makes it easier to take a 3rd on time in TvP. 2) Disruptor range nerf so that they get the same range as tanks instead of outranging them.
If those two got solved I think the game is mostly in a good place.
It possible that Nydus needs a nerf as well, but I am not sure yet.
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The bug fixes are welcome, but they didn't change a single aspect of the balance points despite the criticism? :/
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On February 04 2019 07:46 RandomPlayer416 wrote: One of the main issues in TvP is how many options the protoss army has to shred bio armies. Below grandmaster level its simply too much for the average terran player to keep pace.
I dont think the matchup is fixable because of units that exist. The Immortal is just too good a unit vs anything that Terran can make besides marines. Its a design flaw that cannot be fixed. Even with ghosts having emp's its just too easy for protoss to counter anything Terran can produce.
Protoss also has many defence options shield batteries, force fields warp in, recall....Its just too easy for protoss to execute vs Terran.
People are still stuck in the HOTS mindset. Immortals are not the hard counter to mech many believe. Tank/Hellbats beat mass immortals. Thors can also fight against Carrier/Tempest in the lategame, so late game air is no longer auto-win for Protoss vs mech.
The reason mech is not viable in TvP is because mech have serious problems taking a 3rd at a reasonable time so the mech player is always behind the Protoss player in economy.
Disruptor range also make it so that ground based compositions does not work since the Disruptor outrange even the siege tank.
So if Disruptors got their range nerfed so it was the same as the siege tank and mech got some help taking a 3rd on time vs Protoss I think mech would be viable in TvP.
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On February 05 2019 22:28 MockHamill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2019 07:46 RandomPlayer416 wrote: One of the main issues in TvP is how many options the protoss army has to shred bio armies. Below grandmaster level its simply too much for the average terran player to keep pace.
I dont think the matchup is fixable because of units that exist. The Immortal is just too good a unit vs anything that Terran can make besides marines. Its a design flaw that cannot be fixed. Even with ghosts having emp's its just too easy for protoss to counter anything Terran can produce.
Protoss also has many defence options shield batteries, force fields warp in, recall....Its just too easy for protoss to execute vs Terran. People are still stuck in the HOTS mindset. Immortals are not the hard counter to mech many believe. Tank/Hellbats beat mass immortals. Thors can also fight against Carrier/Tempest in the lategame, so late game air is no longer auto-win for Protoss vs mech. The reason mech is not viable in TvP is because mech have serious problems taking a 3rd at a reasonable time so the mech player is always behind the Protoss player in economy. Disruptor range also make it so that ground based compositions does not work since the Disruptor outrange even the siege tank. So if Disruptors got their range nerfed so it was the same as the siege tank and mech got some help taking a 3rd on time vs Protoss I think mech would be viable in TvP.
What is the actual range for a Nova? LP doesn't say and I have honestly no idea. For taking a 3rd: How about a PF? Again honest question. From what I'm seeing most Terrans go for a 3rd Orbital and then 4+ base maybe a PF
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On February 05 2019 23:01 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On February 05 2019 22:28 MockHamill wrote:On February 04 2019 07:46 RandomPlayer416 wrote: One of the main issues in TvP is how many options the protoss army has to shred bio armies. Below grandmaster level its simply too much for the average terran player to keep pace.
I dont think the matchup is fixable because of units that exist. The Immortal is just too good a unit vs anything that Terran can make besides marines. Its a design flaw that cannot be fixed. Even with ghosts having emp's its just too easy for protoss to counter anything Terran can produce.
Protoss also has many defence options shield batteries, force fields warp in, recall....Its just too easy for protoss to execute vs Terran. People are still stuck in the HOTS mindset. Immortals are not the hard counter to mech many believe. Tank/Hellbats beat mass immortals. Thors can also fight against Carrier/Tempest in the lategame, so late game air is no longer auto-win for Protoss vs mech. The reason mech is not viable in TvP is because mech have serious problems taking a 3rd at a reasonable time so the mech player is always behind the Protoss player in economy. Disruptor range also make it so that ground based compositions does not work since the Disruptor outrange even the siege tank. So if Disruptors got their range nerfed so it was the same as the siege tank and mech got some help taking a 3rd on time vs Protoss I think mech would be viable in TvP. What is the actual range for a Nova? LP doesn't say and I have honestly no idea. For taking a 3rd: How about a PF? Again honest question. From what I'm seeing most Terrans go for a 3rd Orbital and then 4+ base maybe a PF
Nova range is 13.5-14 vs 13 tank range. It outranges the tank a tiny bit so you can shoot a nova at a tank without getting hit even if the terran has vision. PF on third is horrible. Mules and scans are absolutely mandatory, not only for economy or revealing, but also to scan the protoss tech/army since your composition has to be very finely tuned to counter your opponent's comp.
About the reasons why mech still isn't viable vs protoss i'd say : - early game difficulties to land production without dying (switch from 1/1/1 to 1/3/1 for instance is very hard to perform without dying to blink harass, for instance, because you can't run around chasing stalkers with marauders and don't have enough tanks to secure your base) - early game weakness to cheeses/allins (you don't have as much bio units in bunkers which is the bread and butter of terran defense, meaning that a 2 bases allin is extremely hard to defend) - difficulties to take a third - inability to push out in the early game (phenixes lift everything, blink stalkers kill medivacs and pretty much butcher everything that isn't bio inside, banshees negated by shield batteries) meaning that protoss can virtually secure unlimited amounts of economy with very little risk - general difficulty to expand that gets more and more oppressive as the game goes on (protoss can expand and land 4 canons to prevent runbies, eventually adding batteries, has warp and generally mobile forces that can answer harass : mech needs to waste population to defend expands, neither of which really prevents big DT/zealots warpins from butchering bases, and doesn't have enough mobility to deflect protoss splitting forces smartly) - mech has to be extraordinarily careful about engages/taking fights since chargelots are overwhelming whenever your wall of hellbats isn't there or dies too quickly. More broadly, protoss ground forces have better mobility and comparable firepower to mech units : immortal/archon/storm/chargelot will force you to get liberators/siege tank comps, which is insanely immobile while your firepower isn't that much better. Sprinkle disruptors outranging thors and you get an idea of what's wrong. => those two last points mean that mech needs to split its forces to defend its economy, but can't afford to do so because protoss has comparable firepower with more mobility - carriers makes a mockery of thors while tempests butcher BCs, and vikings are worthless. Since the armor nerf on the thor and the interceptor attack change (only 1 attack instead of 2), + faster carrier build time and more HP + 14 leash range vs 11 thor range = thors get massacred. The answer to that is BCs, but tempests pretty much invalidate BCs from the matchup - recall generally speaking makes mech insanely weak to tradebases (even poorly executed ones), because if protoss gets into your production fast, kills everything while you're slowly killing a fourth, then recalls to its third, you're dead (for instance)
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Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
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On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote: Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
Would be OP in TvZ. I guess lowering the cyclone build time would work, it'd allow terran to get out on the map more. It has the same build time than a tank, and frankly it's an early game-only unit that gets mauled in the later stages of the game, so getting it out faster while the upgrades takes much longer would be sensible
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On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote: Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
10 seconds is way too much. How about a bit faster siege / unsiege (maybe even through a cheap upgrade) Would be good for TvT stalemates and would make mech more mobile and could unsiege vs disruptor shots
Besides, all "siege" units got one. Lurker, widowmine, ...
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On February 06 2019 18:33 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote: Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
10 seconds is way too much. How about a bit faster siege / unsiege (maybe even through a cheap upgrade) Would be good for TvT stalemates and would make mech more mobile and could unsiege vs disruptor shots Besides, all "siege" units got one. Lurker, widowmine, ...
So by "all", you mean "the two i mentioned but not the other two". So half ?
And making siege faster through an upgrade is a tankivac-level abomination. Making everything faster is the reason why LOTV ended up being a nonsensical clusterf*ck in so many patches.
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On February 06 2019 17:19 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote: Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
Would be OP in TvZ. I guess lowering the cyclone build time would work, it'd allow terran to get out on the map more. It has the same build time than a tank, and frankly it's an early game-only unit that gets mauled in the later stages of the game, so getting it out faster while the upgrades takes much longer would be sensible Battlemech is a common TvZ strategy and would likely become oppressive with a Cyclone build time buff.
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On February 06 2019 18:55 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2019 18:33 Harris1st wrote:On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote: Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
10 seconds is way too much. How about a bit faster siege / unsiege (maybe even through a cheap upgrade) Would be good for TvT stalemates and would make mech more mobile and could unsiege vs disruptor shots Besides, all "siege" units got one. Lurker, widowmine, ... So by "all", you mean "the two i mentioned but not the other two". So half ?
Your point?
On February 06 2019 18:55 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2019 18:33 Harris1st wrote:On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote: Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
10 seconds is way too much. How about a bit faster siege / unsiege (maybe even through a cheap upgrade) Would be good for TvT stalemates and would make mech more mobile and could unsiege vs disruptor shots Besides, all "siege" units got one. Lurker, widowmine, ... And making siege faster through an upgrade is a tankivac-level abomination. Making everything faster is the reason why LOTV ended up being a nonsensical clusterf*ck in so many patches.
Not it is not. Small difference between air and ground, isn't it? Besides, you can tweak it to sth like only unsiege is faster, to get away from Nova or sth.
Anyway, was just an idea I came up with while reading this thread. I did not do any research into this and it's effects
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Improving any mech units is not the solution. Mech is already strong when you get the units in the sufficiant numbers, even in TvP. The problem is that you can not get enough units early to take expansions as fast as Protoss. The solution should be a lower build time for some mech unit without this having too much impact on TvZ.
I think faster tank production would really help in TvP without having a too much impact in TvZ since you still would need 1) More resources if you produce the tanks faster from the same number of factories. 2) Still need the same amount of support units for the tanks.
I do not think there exists a critical timing in TvZ where having 4 tanks instead of 3 would break the game, but if there is, please tell.
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On February 06 2019 23:26 Harris1st wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2019 18:55 JackONeill wrote:On February 06 2019 18:33 Harris1st wrote:On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote: Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
10 seconds is way too much. How about a bit faster siege / unsiege (maybe even through a cheap upgrade) Would be good for TvT stalemates and would make mech more mobile and could unsiege vs disruptor shots Besides, all "siege" units got one. Lurker, widowmine, ... So by "all", you mean "the two i mentioned but not the other two". So half ? Your point?
On February 06 2019 18:55 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2019 18:33 Harris1st wrote:On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote: Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
10 seconds is way too much. How about a bit faster siege / unsiege (maybe even through a cheap upgrade) Would be good for TvT stalemates and would make mech more mobile and could unsiege vs disruptor shots Besides, all "siege" units got one. Lurker, widowmine, ... So by "all", you mean "the two i mentioned but not the other two". So half ? And making siege faster through an upgrade is a tankivac-level abomination. Making everything faster is the reason why LOTV ended up being a nonsensical clusterf*ck in so many patches.
Literally what is stated right after it. ISpeeding up everything is a terrible design decision and half the siege units don't have a siegeing up speed upgrade, making your argument completely fallacious.
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On February 06 2019 22:10 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2019 17:19 JackONeill wrote:On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote: Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
Would be OP in TvZ. I guess lowering the cyclone build time would work, it'd allow terran to get out on the map more. It has the same build time than a tank, and frankly it's an early game-only unit that gets mauled in the later stages of the game, so getting it out faster while the upgrades takes much longer would be sensible Battlemech is a common TvZ strategy and would likely become oppressive with a Cyclone build time buff.
What's battle mech lacking in order to become viable in tvp?compared to classic mech they seem to be a easier option for taking fast 3rd in tvz and they would probably help in tvp imo Stalkers ain't great vs them but protoss can out produce easily so removing its armor tag should help
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On February 07 2019 06:35 seemsgood wrote:Show nested quote +On February 06 2019 22:10 Athenau wrote:On February 06 2019 17:19 JackONeill wrote:On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote: Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
Would be OP in TvZ. I guess lowering the cyclone build time would work, it'd allow terran to get out on the map more. It has the same build time than a tank, and frankly it's an early game-only unit that gets mauled in the later stages of the game, so getting it out faster while the upgrades takes much longer would be sensible Battlemech is a common TvZ strategy and would likely become oppressive with a Cyclone build time buff. What's battle mech lacking in order to become viable in tvp?compared to classic mech they seem to be a easier option for taking fast 3rd in tvz and they would probably help in tvp imo Stalkers ain't great vs them but protoss can out produce easily so removing its armor tag should help For Zerg it's especially hard to counter battle mech at lower supplies. But Protoss has the advantage on lower supplies once charge and blink are done because those upgrades just laugh at cyclones real hard.
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On February 07 2019 06:45 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2019 06:35 seemsgood wrote:On February 06 2019 22:10 Athenau wrote:On February 06 2019 17:19 JackONeill wrote:On February 06 2019 00:08 MockHamill wrote: Something needs to be done so that mech can get enough units faster in order to take the 3rd on time.
I wonder if removing 10 seconds from the siege tank build time would solve the weakness of mech in the early game.
Would be OP in TvZ. I guess lowering the cyclone build time would work, it'd allow terran to get out on the map more. It has the same build time than a tank, and frankly it's an early game-only unit that gets mauled in the later stages of the game, so getting it out faster while the upgrades takes much longer would be sensible Battlemech is a common TvZ strategy and would likely become oppressive with a Cyclone build time buff. What's battle mech lacking in order to become viable in tvp?compared to classic mech they seem to be a easier option for taking fast 3rd in tvz and they would probably help in tvp imo Stalkers ain't great vs them but protoss can out produce easily so removing its armor tag should help For Zerg it's especially hard to counter battle mech at lower supplies. But Protoss has the advantage on lower supplies once charge and blink are done because those upgrades just laugh at cyclones real hard. Cyclone/mine is pretty good at dealing with yolo blinks/chargelot a-moves, it's just that if the Protoss knows you're playing mech they can go ape mode and kill you before you have the production and upgrades (mag-field, drilling claws) you need.
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