Welcome to the TeamLiquid.net awards! Once again, it's time to look back on a year of competitive StarCraft II and celebrate the best progamers, laugh at amusing incidents, and generally appreciate this amazing spectacle that we've come to love.
Even if you don't agree with the selections, we hope you look back on 2018 fondly, remember everything that was great about StarCraft II, and get hyped for what's to come in 2019. Alright, enough with this awkward text-based speech-giving. On to the awards!
Best Ceremony
Dark
Master blusterers MC and PartinG have found an unlikely companion in Dark, whose quiet confidence has transformed into a loud disrespect over the years. It didn't matter that 2018 was a relatively down year for Dark—he was bolder than ever, roasting both foreigners and Koreans with glee. Domestically, Classic was his favored target, and he even went as far as to suggest that his long-time frenemy should go to the army already.
As for foreigners, Dark has no problem taunting the entire scene, brusquely dismissing any notion that the Korea-World gap had narrowed. In a highlight moment, Dark singled out Scarlett as the target of his disdain during the GSL vs. The World teammatch, crumpling up her printed image before rolling it across the flood. It was rude, corny, and hilarious all at once—just the way we like our esports ceremonies.
Though Dark's antics were mostly in jest, they had just enough bite behind them to make it all the sweeter when he finally got his comeuppance. Dark's BlizzCon whooping at the hands of Serral wouldn't have been nearly as delectable if he hadn't called the Finnish Phenom the 'weakest' potential opponent beforehand.
Thanks, Dark, for playing the villain and making StarCraft II more fun.
Written by: Wax
Biggest Rivalry
Serral Fans vs Korea Fans
Photo: Helena Kristiansson
There is a misconception that Serral vs. Korean pros was the defining rivalry of 2018.
A rivalry requires animus from both parties. Or, foregoing that, any kind of interest at all. Alas, Serral has made it abundantly clear that he simply doesn't care about this silly rivalry we've thrust upon him.
However, fans do care. In fact, we care way too much. After all, 'fan' originates from the word 'fanatic', and there was a near-religious fervor in how Serral vs. Korea was debated across StarCraft II communities.
Serral fans exhorted for the Finnish Zerg to be recognized as one of the world's best, pointing out his unprecedented domination of the foreign scene. Korean elitists decried such claims as blasphemy, declaring any foreign achievement as worthless unless validated in Korea. When Serral won GSL vs. The World, Korean elitists demanded that he perform the miracle again. And when Serral won BlizzCon, they said the Korean scene had been decaying ever since its fall from grace in 2016.
Lest it look like we're taking sides—we're not. In the end, everyone was a winner in this rivalry because it made everyone care all the more about StarCraft II. The desire to see your faction vindicated turned GSL vs. The World from a forgettable all-star match in 2017 to must-see event in 2018. Furthermore, some may contend that BlizzCon 2018 was the most emotional and dramatic Global Finals ever. Even when Serral wasn't in direct conflict with Korean players, the anticipation for the greater clash to come upped the ante in other competitions.
In a way, this award is for ALL of us as fans. (Except you, you filthy neutrals.)
Written by: Wax
Strategy of the Year
Proxy Terran
The 2018 award for Strategy of the Year goes to the wide spectrum of builds we’ll call Proxy Terran for the sake of simplicity. The Proxy Terran trend was spearheaded by three-time GSL champion Maru himself, whose propensity for aggressive openings in the 2018 season hearkened back to his early days as an understudy of MarineKingPrime. Ever since his ascension to champion-hood in the last OSL in the summer of 2013, Maru had been considered a bastion of solid textbook-esque play, whose tactical prowess set him apart on many an occasion. And yet, last year witnessed a dramatic shift in the Royal Roader’s approach to competitive StarCraft II.
And it caught on.
Terran proxies started popping up in a vast majority of games, both casual and professional. As the year progressed, so did the builds. The mindgames involved got more and more elaborate, with proxies becoming commonplace in all Terran matchups. And yet, no two games would ever play out quite the same. The proxy metagame changed StarCraft II by redefining the so-called 'standard' set of plays, forcing players to explore new strategic approaches. For Terran players, it was a much needed breath of fresh air. For Zerg and Protoss players, it was a breath of "fresh" "air" (insert your true feelings as you please).
One could argue that short, cheesy games don’t feel as rewarding as drawn-out macro slobber-knockers, or that skill is somehow not involved in the art of proxying. From a certain point of view that might be true—one which defines skill as a rigid set of standards.
But why who is to say that meticulously preparation should be valued higher or lower than one’s ability to think on their feet? The game we play has a straightforward win condition. Players don’t get evaluated by a panel of judges, nor are they awarded points for style. At the end of the day, you either win or lose. And that’s what Proxy Terran is all about. It throws you in the deep end, straight out of your comfort zone. And you either sink or swim.
Written by: Ziggy, Terran player.
Worst Drama
Fan Voting
In the lead-up to March's NationWars V, the StarCraft II community was alight over whether or not the polarizing Avilo was worthy of being voted onto Team USA. In a sad (if you were JonSnow) and hilarious (if you were anyone else) turn of events, Avilo ended up taking third place in team USA voting, and went on to help his country to a qualifier-stage exit.
In July, GSL vs. The World was struck by a similar controversy. Kelazhur found himself leading the vote to represent Terran on Team World, thanks to more than a little help from influencers in the Brazilian gaming community. This time, things got a bit more contentious in the StarCraft II community than during NationWars—US StarCraft might have been a joke, but foreigner StarCraft was serious business.
In the end, NationWars V ended up being fine, GSL vs. The World ended up being fine, and it doesn't seem like anyone learned any lessons so this will all probably happen again this year. Congratulations, fans—we won another award!
Written by: Wax
Most Entertaining Player
Has
Photo: Helena Kristiansson
Has has enjoyed a cult following ever since he debuted in 2013, but 2018 was the year when his bizarre, cheesy hi-jinks went from being a rare treat to semi-regular fixture in major competitions. In previous years, the best he might achieve with his unorthodox style was stealing a map off a top-tier player. At WCS Valencia 2018, he nearly stole an entire tournament by flummoxing a slew of top Circuit players on his way to the finals. He even took his unique brand of StarCraft to BlizzCon, where he almost scored the upset of the tournament by cannon-rushing to a lead against Dark before losing an unloseable game.
We're still not quite sure what to make of Has's 2018 run. Did he actually get better, or did fortune finally smile upon one of her weirdest sons? Maybe it's pointless to try and understand anything about Has—after all, this is the player who once off-raced in a WCS Taiwan qualifier for seemingly no reason at all.
Even if we can't comprehend Has, we sure as hell can appreciate him. No player was so bad and good, so predictable and unpredictable, and so villainous and heroic at the same. And if you don't find the living paradox that is Has entertaining, don't worry. You'll come around.
Written by: Wax
Biggest News Story
No Long-Term WCS Plans
Photo: Helena Kristiansson
Though 2018 was full of excitement as far as actual games and tournaments are concerned, it was also marked by a distinct lack of groundbreaking news. You could argue that no news is a good thing—previous news stories have had a tendency to be on the apocalyptic side. After all, the end of Proleague and Life's match-fixing scandal were past 'winners' for News Story of the Year. Compared to that, maintaining the status quo seems like a godsend.
Unfortunately, there's been a conspicuous lack of a WCS information. In December of 2016, Blizzard gave us a two year road map for WCS and StarCraft II esports. Compared to then, we're basically blind at this point in time.
Heading into 2019, only the the initial seasons of competitive SC2 were confirmed: WCS Winter and the first GSL. Since then, AfreecaTV has announced that we'll be getting a full year of GSL. We also know that IEM Katowice will feature SC2. However, everything else is up in the air. The full announcement of the yearlong plan, although late at times, has never been THIS late. Long-term planning is currently impossible for anyone involved in the scene.
This comes in the wake of Blizzard dropping their support of Heroes of the Storm esports, whose participants were also left high and dry. Some even claimed they were misled by Blizzard employees who effectively guaranteed another year of competition—only to find out they would be out of a job through a shocking Blue post. Perhaps HGC was a worst-case scenario, a one-in-a-million disaster that Blizzard has since learned from. However, Blizzard has done little to allay the StarCraft II's community's fears that the axe may fall at any moment.
But fear not (yet). StarCraft II is in a stronger spot than Heroes of the Storm was. Through the War Chest, it now has its own mechanism in place through which the community can help subsidize tournaments, and it has been quite effective at doing so. Viewer numbers have risen by remarkable percentages, introducing new potential War Chest customers. Dropping a product on the upswing is not particularly intelligent business. There is, in fact, reason to be optimistic.
And yet there is no announcement. Something is getting in the way, and we can only speculate as to what it is. Nothing else matters until it arrives, making this by far the most important story of 2018, maybe even that of 2019.
Written by: Olli
Best Map
Lost and Found
by: Zweck
This might be the most difficult category to award as the definition of a 'good map' differs wildly depending on your relationship to StarCraft. Mapmakers, progamers, and casual ladder players all value different things in maps, which has caused many a debate after a new map pool announcement.
From the viewpoint of StarCraft II fans who write about esports from time to time, we decided to go with the map that entertained us the most. Catalyst (NegativeZero) and Acid Plant (nesta-kun) were obvious candidates—the two maps were selected the most by pros in tournament play and provided us with consistently good games. However, we ultimately chose the map that peaked the highest in its best-case scenario: Lost and Found. Zweck's creation appeared thirteen times on TL's Best Games of 2018 list, a hefty lead over Acid Plant's six.
As a 'standard' type map with four, relatively easy-to-take bases, Lost and Found risked producing dull games in the hands of passive players. However, when played by more active pros, Lost and Found provided the perfect conditions for the large-scale, back-and-forth games that viewers delight in.
Written by: Wax
Breakout Player
Reynor
Photo: Andre Hainke
Reynor had been noticed for his talent since well before 2018, but the WCS age limit prevented him from making a serious impact on the tournament circuit. However, once Reynor turned sixteen-years-old in July, the foreign StarCraft II scene instantly gained another star.
The Italian Zerg (re)introduced himself by plunging straight into the deep end of competitive StarCraft, travelling to Korea to train and compete in the GSL. It was his biggest test as a player, one that would show if there was substance behind his reputation as a prodigy.
The results were nothing short of shocking. Not only did he qualify for the GSL, but he eliminated one of Korea's best Protoss players in Classic to earn a spot in the RO16 (winning one of the best games of the year in the process). After a narrow loss to Maru in the RO16, there was no doubting that Reynor was for real.
Reynor damn near qualified for BlizzCon despite only being eligible for half the WCS Circuit tournaments of the year. When he did get to play, he trounced top players such as SpeCial and ShoWTimE, and even pushed Serral to an intense seven game series at WCS Montreal (Serral's toughest test of the 2018 WCS Circuit). We may have known that Reynor was talented before 2018, but few expected him to be this good, and this fast. Even Serral, another famous early-starter, had to turn seventeen before he became a real championship contender.
In a scene packed with grizzled veterans, Reynor didn't just prove that he belonged—he proved that he belonged in the championship picture. He's the obvious winner for breakout player of the year, and all bets are off on what he can accomplish in 2019.
Written by: Soularion
Best Terran: WCS Circuit
SpeCial
Photo: Helena Kristiansson
In comparison to Zergs and Protosses, the foreign Terran tree has been considerably less fruitful.
Yet, in the fertile soil of Korea, SpeCial has grown to become one of the few Terran powerhouses in the foreign scene, and the best one we have today. While the entirely homegrown HeRoMaRinE encroached on SpeCial's territory with his consistent showings (especially towards the end of the season), he was never a serious threat. Not when SpeCial had another level of play, another gear to shift to when battling the best players in the world. Though SpeCial seems yet unable to command this power at will, it did come forth at the WCS Global Finals where he defeated Classic to reach the quarterfinals for the second straight year (semifinals in 2017).
SpeCial is one of the foreigners to transcend the Circuit events. We know he's good, and we know he'll give the Koreans a fight. He might get swept by Reynor or lose in a group stage now and then, but we still hold out for the excellence he can demonstrate when he's at the top of his game.
Alas, we can't talk about SpeCial without mentioning his unfortunate semifinal jinx, which was painfully realized when he lost to MaNa in the WCS Austin semifinals. For MaNa, it was a part of a miraculous run. For SpeCial, it was a frustrating loss with his first premiere final in sight. That is the clear hump he must get over in 2019.
So, where does SpeCial go from here? He's been TeamLiquid.net's best foreign Terran for two years running, but he's been overshadowed by historic years from Neeb and then Serral. Everyone knows of SpeCial's potential and drive to be great, but it just hasn't come together in an extended, career defining run. Perhaps 2019 will be the year where SpeCial overcomes the stigma associated with the term 'foreign Terran' and becomes not only the greatest of his kind, but an elite player regardless of race.
Written by: Soularion
Best Terran: WCS Korea
Maru
Photo: Helena Kristiansson
2018 was a year of change with many ups and downs in store for our favorite players. In a time of such chaos, our choice of best Korean Terran goes to a player who embodied consistent dominance throughout the year.
The year started off shakily for Maru, who narrowly escaped his Code S RO32 group in second place. However, Maru didn't waver—he only grew better and stronger. He first really flexed his muscle at IEM Katowice, putting in great performances vs Solar and Rogue to reach the top four. That momentum carried over to the WESG finals in China, where he prevailed over ZvT master Dark to win his first major championship in three years. Upon returning to Korea, Maru seized the GSL Code S trophy that has eluded him for so many years.
At this point, it would have been no surprise if Maru fizzled out. Winning Code S is one the hardest achievements in StarCraft (some would say THE hardest), requiring immense amounts of practice and preparation over a marathon run. We've come to expect a 'championship hangover' from even from the most brilliant players, with many champions struggling to even achieve a high finish in the next season. Some past champions such as Classic and even Mvp have were eliminated in the RO32 following a Code S title. So, when Maru went on to win back-to-back Code S titles, we were all in shock. It was a feat that hadn't been witnessed since Nestea won Code S May and July back in 2011.
Going into the third and final season of Code S on the year, all eyes were on Maru again. Could someone really win three consecutive GSL Code S tournaments in this day and age? It seemed like a ridiculous proposition, yet we almost expected it to happen. When he defeated TY in the finals, he proved that we were right to believe in the impossible.
Maru didn’t just win three Code S tournaments. He absolutely dominated the tournaments and answered every question we put in front of him. He introduced us to a new approach to late game TvZ and then continued to own the match-up after Ravens were nerfed. He shored up his TvP, destroying old enemies such as Classic, Stats and Zest. Finally, when we demanded that he prove himself in the Terran mirror, he toppled second-best Terran TY in the GSL Finals.
An upset loss to sOs at the Global Finals might be our final memory of Maru from the 2018 season, but it shouldn't be our lasting one. Maru was the complete package in Korea, giving us the closest thing we've ever seen to a perfect year in the GSL.
Written by: Destructicon
Best Zerg: WCS Circuit
Serral
Photo: Carlton Beener
Well, isn't this the most obvious pick of all time.
Serral was already the frontrunner to win this award when he won his first major title at WCS Leipzig, but everything he's done since has made this a ridiculous blowout. Scarlett's victory at February's IEM PyeongChang briefly made this award a two-way race (Scarlett even beat Serral at that tournament), but no foreigner—Zerg or otherwise—even came close to Serral ever since. After PyeongChang, Serral won the remaining three WCS Circuit Tournaments, GSL vs. The World, and the WCS Global Finals at BlizzCon to claim SIX major titles on the year. That's not to mention the historical significance of becoming the first foreigner to win BlizzCon, the biggest and most prestigious tournament in StarCraft II (if it wasn't the most prestigious before, then Serral has made it so going forward).
In 2017, Serral was merely the latest in a long line of elite foreign Zergs, a lineage that included the likes of Stephano, Scarlett, Snute, Nerchio, Sen and IdrA. Now, he has surpassed them all and has founded his own dynasty of one.
Comparing Serral to his peers is just unfair. No other foreigner in history can match him. You'd be hard pressed to find a foreigner whose entire career is worthy of comparison to what Serral has accomplished in 2018. Serral proved himself as the best Zerg outside of Korea barely halfway through the year, and spent the rest of it proving that he was better than any of the Zergs in Korea, too.
TeamLiquid.net's "Best Foreign Zerg of 2018" is one of Serral's least noteworthy accomplishments, but here it is all the same.
Written by: Wax
Best Zerg: WCS Korea
Rogue
Photo: Helena Kristiansson
2017 was a banner year for Korean Zergs. Rogue’s incomparable run which saw him crowned WCS World Champion was the stuff of legend. soO’s pair of GSL final appearances confirmed his place among StarCraft II royalty. Even Dark and Solar got in on the party, with each of them reaching the finals in SSL Premier. All in all it was quite possibly the Kong Brood's most successful campaign ever.
2018 was, in comparison, not so hot. Dark was excellent in bursts, but his unfortunate pairings against Maru and his own propensity to choke meant that he never capitalized on his obvious quality. soO came within inches of another GSL final in Season 1, but fell off the map after that. Solar's results didn't match his brains; and even though Leenock was the best player in the world (according to Artosis) for a few days, he never secured a high tournament finish. That leaves Rogue, the IEM Season XII World Champion, as Korea’s shining Zerg star.
Rogue’s year got off to a noticeably rocky start with RO32 elimination in Code S, but his victory in Katowice served as a smarting rebuke to his doubters. For any other player, it would have been a career defining achievement. But for Rogue, it was also a defining achievement in pro StarCraft II history, as he became only the second player to unify the WCS and IEM titles (alongside teammate sOs). Unfortunately, after setting such lofty expectations, Rogue fell short in the GSL. He continued his domestic quarterfinal curse in subsequent GSL seasons, losing to Maru (understandable) and Neeb (gasp! (but not quite as bad as losing to Curious (OR IS IT?))) in Season 2 and 3 of GSL respectively. Let's not mention that he didn't win a single match in either of the Super Tournaments or GSL vs. The World.
After sleepwalking through spring and summer, Rogue lit it up at BizzCon, with his series against TY ranking among the best of the entire tournament. Though his bid to repeat as World Champion was thwarted by Serral, he put up a better fight against the Finn than the other candidate for best Korean Zerg in Dark.
2018 was a trying year for Korean Zergs, but Rogue stood out above the rest. He may have been inconsistent, but his ability to summon world-beating form at IEM Katowice and the WCS Global Finals elevated him above his peers.
Written by: Mizenhauer
Best Protoss: WCS Circuit
ShoWTimE
Photo: Helena Kristiansson
All eyes were on Neeb at the start of 2018. In the wake of his (in)famous game against Rogue at BlizzCon 2017, we were eager to see if he could continue his unprecedented, 3x WCS Circuit championship dominance from the previous year. And, for a moment, it seemed as if he would do just that as he paraded his way to the semifinals of January's WCS Leipzig. Had Neeb gone on to win it all it would have undoubtedly have set the tone for the entire year, but a certain German Protoss players had other ideas.
ShoWTimE—the original 'best foreign Protoss' of Legacy of the Void—had been anything but convincing in 2017. However, his 3-2 victory over Neeb at Leipzig instantly recalled the incendiary form that took him to BlizzCon in 2016, a year where he had perhaps been the best foreigner outright. He ultimately lost in the finals to Serral (as was the fate of so many this past year), but he didn’t rest on his laurels. While Has (Valencia), MaNa (Austin) and Neeb (Code S Season 3) faded outside of their storybook runs, ShoWTimE held steady over the course of the year (a semifinal finish at WCS Valencia, a quarterfinal berth in Montreal, and of course, a comprehensive shellacking of Zest in GSL vs. the World).
Though he failed to make it through a difficult RO16 group in the Global Finals, we would be remiss to forget that he got there as the #2 seed from the WCS Circuit. His 2-0 victory against Dark in the Global Finals served as a final reminder of Die Mauer's world-class play.
All in all, ShoWTimE's 2018 saw him become the #2 seed from the WCS circuit, reach the quarterfinals in three WCS Circuit events (and the only one beside Serral who actually made the finals), and score high profile victories over Zest and Dark in major tournaments. In a rough year for foreign Protosses where 'losing to Serral' could have become the overarching theme, ShoWTimE was an inspiring presence.
Written by: Mizenhauer
Best Protoss: WCS Korea
Stats
Photo: Helena Kristiansson]
With historic performances from Maru and Serral, 2018 ended up being a down year for the sons of Aiur. Protoss didn't have trouble sending players to the finals, but they had a tough time finding a championship contender that could go toe to toe with the best. While Protoss players found some consolation victories in assorted tournaments around the world, the biggest prizes in StarCraft II remained out of their grasp.
Amidst all this disappointment, however, the stalwart captain Stats once again anchored his place as the most consistent Protoss. While he failed to claim a Code S championship, he reached the finals of four major tournaments and took home a Super Tournament trophy. He started off the year strong by reaching the finals of the first GSL, but was sacrificed to build Maru’s legacy. A short mid-season slump saw him exit the second season of the GSL in disappointing fashion against Byun, but he doggedly found his way back to form, clinching a pair of finals appearances at GSL vs. the World and BlizzCon. It can't be overlooked that Stats was the Korean player who gave Serral his stiffest challenges, narrowly losing 3-4 at GSL vs. the World and 2-4 at BlizzCon.
2018 was a downgrade for Stats compared to 2017—when he claimed dual GSL and SSL titles—and it's a disappointment for the Protoss faction that their best player ended the year with 'only' the Super Tournament I trophy in hand. Still, that's more Protoss' shame than Stats', and Kim Dae Yeob can stand proud as the most consistent and successful Protoss of the LotV era. His tenacity and consistency will no doubt aid him greatly in his attempts to secure another title to his name moving forward, and he fully deserves the title of Best WCS Korea Protoss in 2018.
Written by: Orlok
Game of the Year
Dark vs. Solar, IEM Katowice
Back in March, Dark and Solar played a match on the B-stream of IEM Katowice, which was just one of several matches going on during the group stage. By the end, we realized we had to bring back TeamLiquid's best games feature. This game was the impetus for this entire yearlong endeavor, the primary reason we wanted share great StarCraft II games with everyone.
Many fans consider ZvZ the worst match-up, finding most of the games to be similar and one-sided. While there's some validity to that reputation, the Zerg mirror can be magnificent when it shatters the mold.
In a match-up infested with 13-12s, 12-pools, Speedling floods, and Spine Crawler rushes, it seems crazy that anyone would ever go for TWO expansions before a spawning pool. Of course, it would be absolutely ridiculous for both players to open in such an insane manner. Well, 'absolutely ridiculous' turns out to be best way to describe Solar versus Dark. Both players opened with greedy, double-expansion openers, both players followed-up with Roaches, and then both players followed up with Spire tech. That's where the two players' plans diverged. Dark, upon scouting Solar's spire, decided to go into Corruptors. Wait, Corruptors? What followed was a ridiculous tug of war between Roaches, Zerglings, Mutalisks, Corruptors, and Banelings, all while Caustic Spray rained down on the Hatcheries below.
This game doesn't have high stakes, slick production, or interpersonal drama driving it. While all those things contribute to making esports fun, none of them are uniquely StarCraft. This game is about great StarCraft II in its pure, unadulterated form: two of the best progamers in the world going head-to-head.
Written by: Ej & Wax
Player of the Year
Serral
Photo: Helena Kristiansson
Back in 2011, long before Blizzard implemented a region lock, TeamLiquid divided its 'Best Player' award into 'International' and 'Korea' categories. The skill gap between the foreign and Korean scenes was painfully evident, and there was no questioning which award went to the better player. I can't remember exactly why we decided to split the awards at the time, but I like to think that it was because we wanted to show appreciation for the efforts of foreign progamers. A decade of professional Brood War meant that Korea had a strong StarCraft culture and infrastructure—of course they were better. It was still worth celebrating those who toiled to close the gap.
Over seven years later, it's finally time to present a unified Player of the Year award. Serral is our Player of the Year for 2018—in Korea, outside of Korea, and anywhere in the world.
Based out of Finland, Serral had to be extremely convincing in a limited number of mixed-region competitions to win Player of the Year over contenders from Korea. While he performed well in Q1 winter events—placing top eight at IEM Pyeongchang, top four at IEM Katowice, and third place WESG—such results were hardly unprecedented for a foreigner. Players such as Stephano, HuK, Sen, Neeb, and Scarlett had already set the bar at winning a championship against Korean pros.
At August's GSL vs. The World, Serral rose to that level—and then soared beyond it. Serral ran through a gauntlet of some of Korea's most successful LotV pros, defeating INnoVation (3-0), Dark (3-1), and Stats (4-3) on his way to the championship. The specifics of Serral's run immediately made it the single greatest foreigner victory ever. The various criticisms that nagged at other foreigner triumphs just didn't stick—Serral had faced three top-tier Koreans of all three races, the tournament's first place prize of 30,000,000 KRW made it a true 'premiere' event, and he had lifted the trophy on the Korean's home turf. Serral was no longer a big fish in a small pond, and some wondered if he was simply the biggest fish, full stop.
At the WCS Global Finals, Serral ended the debate and sealed his place as the best player in the world. With a record $280,000 first place prize, no one could say the Koreans weren't trying their best at the Global Finals. With the participants qualifying based on their yearlong performances, no one could deny that Serral was facing the best Korea had to offer. Serral actually ended up winning BlizzCon more easily than GSL vs The World, defeating sOs, Zest, Dark, Rogue, and Stats by a combined map score of 14-3.
It's scary how Serral's sweep of all four WCS Circuit tournaments has ended up being the least impressive of his 2018 accomplishments, despite it being an unmatched feat in the history of region-locked WCS competition. Serral recorded a map score of 68 wins and 18 losses over those tournaments, which comes out to a ludicrous 79.1% win-rate. With that degree of dominance, I can't even get mad when people bring out the B-word comparisons.
The only lingering question about Serral's 2018 is how he would have performed against Maru at the peak of his powers. Maru swept a lesser version of Serral at March's WESG playoffs, but then lost an exhibition match against him at GSL vs. The World. Unfortunately, we never got to see this particular dreammatch, as Maru was eliminated by Protoss opponents at both GSL vs. The World (Stats) and BlizzCon (sOs).
As we can see from Serral's domination of the WCS Circuit, he's a ridiculous outlier in the foreign scene. That makes it difficult to say how much the foreigner-Korea gap has closed—how progress can you say has been made when it comes largely from one person? At the very least, perhaps, we can say Serral has provided inspiration and hope by proving that the Korean monolith is not insurmountable, and that becoming the best in the world is not a futile dream. On the flip side, perhaps the Korean scene has been instilled with the dread realization that no empire lasts forever.
Alongside the entire StarCraft II scene, we eagerly await to see what Serral will do in 2019. Who knows? Maybe we'll have even to split this award up again. Only, this time, it will be because the Koreans need to be given consolatory applause for their efforts to topple Serral.
poor koreans. they lose to serral one year, and that's when TL decides to have only one "best player of the year" so koreans never benefit from the international/korean split.
On January 30 2019 23:08 Toua wrote: Ok just have to say that Stats won the first GSL Supertournament this year, so he did win a title and also Classic too
ahh sorry, should have clarified ST vs the so called 'premiere' events
On January 30 2019 23:08 Toua wrote: Ok just have to say that Stats won the first GSL Supertournament this year, so he did win a title and also Classic too
Oof, my bad. I did kinda dismiss the super tournaments if only because they served more a filler for GSL downtime than anything else, but again my mistake. Will rectify this trend of lost facts moving into 2019!
Not sure how Showtime > Neeb when the former has a few wins but usually gets embarassed and the latter made ro.4 in code S and only gets EMBARASSED by Maru.
Not sure how Serral isn't the breakout player, and not sure why the biggest rivalry isn't sOs vs Maru. There are no Korean elitists or 'Korean fans'. I don't mind Serral winning, I just find his fans a bit... well you know. But I'm not a Korean fan. My favorite SC2 player is probably Scarlett (assuming that Flash doesn't count).
The only ones pushes this Serral fan vs Korean fan narrative are the Serral fans. Oh well, you live and you learn. And of course, saying Serral > Maru when Maru won 3 Code S in a row betrays your bias.
Surprisingly uncontroversial awards for once. We have to thank Serral and Maru for making the year all too clear cut. TL writers could have at least called Redshift the best map of the year or something. Mizenhauer taking another crack at Rogue fans is something at least.
On January 31 2019 00:26 Rodya wrote: Not sure how Showtime > Neeb when the former has a few wins but usually gets embarassed and the latter made ro.4 in code S and only gets EMBARASSED by Maru.
Not sure how Serral isn't the breakout player, and not sure why the biggest rivalry isn't sOs vs Maru. There are no Korean elitists or 'Korean fans'. I don't mind Serral winning, I just find his fans a bit... well you know. But I'm not a Korean fan. My favorite SC2 player is probably Scarlett (assuming that Flash doesn't count).
The only ones pushes this Serral fan vs Korean fan narrative are the Serral fans. Oh well, you live and you learn. And of course, saying Serral > Maru when Maru won 3 Code S in a row betrays your bias.
very bias but just wrong , try to use liquipedia and alligulac.com showtime did beat neeb many times , just a few days ago on the ladder heroes 2:0 neeb lost many times this year and did get (embarassed ) even vs some unkown players he didnt get so many high tournament placements he has worse winning rates less wcs points has a way lesser rank on alligulac this is not even close by all standards that neeb was clearly the worse protoss player of those 2 in fact 2017 was the only year neeb was better
serral was not the breakout player because he was good active also last year obviously
sos maru ? ok its more than clear by now that you are not objectiv , you dont know the facts you just want the things you like to be true
On January 31 2019 00:26 Rodya wrote: Not sure how Showtime > Neeb when the former has a few wins but usually gets embarassed and the latter made ro.4 in code S and only gets EMBARASSED by Maru.
Not sure how Serral isn't the breakout player, and not sure why the biggest rivalry isn't sOs vs Maru. There are no Korean elitists or 'Korean fans'. I don't mind Serral winning, I just find his fans a bit... well you know. But I'm not a Korean fan. My favorite SC2 player is probably Scarlett (assuming that Flash doesn't count).
The only ones pushes this Serral fan vs Korean fan narrative are the Serral fans. Oh well, you live and you learn. And of course, saying Serral > Maru when Maru won 3 Code S in a row betrays your bias.
Well, to say the truth Neeb won eight major tournaments in OSC Championship s5, Cheesadelphia 6, Hanghzhou Carnival every WCS qualifier for NA bar Valencia and both WESG qualifiers(2017 and 2018) while ShowTime won several minors; they had comparable runs at BlizzCon, ShowTime was better in WCS but Neeb has his GSL 3 run. Overall Neeb could deserve the title.
Serral could be the breakout player in a way but he already was a very good zerg in 2017, while Reynor was nobody before last year.
sOs vs Maru is strictly a player vs player rivalry but why not Impact vs Zest then? There weren't really epic rivalries ingame in 2018, Korean elitists vs Serral fanboys was indeed a bigger one; Korean elitists indeed exist and their refuse of acknowledging Serral is the reason of the rivalry existing, as no one ever would diminish the accomplishments of korean players like Maru's in 2018.
Breakout player of the year for reynor is completely ridiculous, i understand that the little italian is a fan favorite amongst the foreign scene at this point, on the one hand because he indeed had impressive results this year and he looks like the next big zerg star, on the other hand because he did all of this at a very young age and his personality is certainly endearing.
Though i still have to ask myself if there wouldn't be a way better choice and imo there absolutely is, there is a player who showcased incredible skill development this year at an even younger age, but either the TL writers are too zerg biased (zerg for both breakout and player of the year!) or the usual anti protoss perspective is at play again. The most deserving player for the breakout award quite clearly is alphastar, only training for about 2 weeks and already able to beat mana, showcasing incredible micro-strategic decision-making, something no other player ever showcased to this lvl of perfection.
Very disappointed in this biased TL choice, but certainly not too surprising...
On January 31 2019 00:26 Rodya wrote: Not sure how Showtime > Neeb when the former has a few wins but usually gets embarassed and the latter made ro.4 in code S and only gets EMBARASSED by Maru.
Not sure how Serral isn't the breakout player, and not sure why the biggest rivalry isn't sOs vs Maru. There are no Korean elitists or 'Korean fans'. I don't mind Serral winning, I just find his fans a bit... well you know. But I'm not a Korean fan. My favorite SC2 player is probably Scarlett (assuming that Flash doesn't count).
The only ones pushes this Serral fan vs Korean fan narrative are the Serral fans. Oh well, you live and you learn. And of course, saying Serral > Maru when Maru won 3 Code S in a row betrays your bias.
Ye sure
All awards are well deserved. This bugs me. How am I supposed to complain? Make more awards so I can disagree for once!
On January 31 2019 01:10 The_Red_Viper wrote: The most deserving player for the breakout award quite clearly is alphastar, only training for about 2 weeks and already able to beat mana, showcasing incredible micro-strategic decision-making, something no other player ever showcased to this lvl of perfection.
While they may have been played in late? December, the argument could be made that alphastar's games broadcasted in 2019. So maybe it'll be the breakout player this year.
On January 31 2019 01:10 The_Red_Viper wrote: The most deserving player for the breakout award quite clearly is alphastar, only training for about 2 weeks and already able to beat mana, showcasing incredible micro-strategic decision-making, something no other player ever showcased to this lvl of perfection.
While they may have been played in late? December, the argument could be made that alphastar's games broadcasted in 2019. So maybe it'll be the breakout player this year.
You have to pardon viper, he is still on Julian calendar as a true traditionalist
On January 31 2019 01:10 The_Red_Viper wrote: Breakout player of the year for reynor is completely ridiculous, i understand that the little italian is a fan favorite amongst the foreign scene at this point, on the one hand because he indeed had impressive results this year and he looks like the next big zerg star, on the other hand because he did all of this at a very young age and his personality is certainly endearing.
Though i still have to ask myself if there wouldn't be a way better choice and imo there absolutely is, there is a player who showcased incredible skill development this year at an even younger age, but either the TL writers are too zerg biased (zerg for both breakout and player of the year!) or the usual anti protoss perspective is at play again. The most deserving player for the breakout award quite clearly is alphastar, only training for about 2 weeks and already able to beat mana, showcasing incredible micro-strategic decision-making, something no other player ever showcased to this lvl of perfection.
Very disappointed in this biased TL choice, but certainly not too surprising...
Solid awards. I'm not against the GOTY being a ZvZ, but I watched the awarded one based on the other thread and I was actually disappointed. I thought there were at least 2 or 3 other ZvZ games that I found better in all aspects including weight of what it meant if that player won. The proposed GOTY was definitely lacking that singular aspect.
It just struck me that TL released greatest HotS players list 3 years after HotS came out, now that LotV has been out for 3 years and it's not likely we're gonna get a new expansion maybe it's time for greatest LotV players list? Would be awesome to see a wrap-up of the last 3 years of SC2 esports anyway.
On January 31 2019 03:29 yht9657 wrote: It just struck me that TL released greatest HotS players list 3 years after HotS came out, now that LotV has been out for 3 years and it's not likely we're gonna get a new expansion maybe it's time for greatest LotV players list? Would be awesome to see a wrap-up of the last 3 years of SC2 esports anyway.
I feel like we need to see Serral, Maru and Stats next year to really have a grip on the game greats.
On January 30 2019 23:08 Toua wrote: Ok just have to say that Stats won the first GSL Supertournament this year, so he did win a title and also Classic too
Oof, my bad. I did kinda dismiss the super tournaments if only because they served more a filler for GSL downtime than anything else, but again my mistake. Will rectify this trend of lost facts moving into 2019!
No problem, I could not keep my self back as a Stats fan
Curious if anybody's got thoughts on the two non-KR stars this year (Serral and Reynor) being Zerg. Any gameplay reason (mechanics, # of Zerg players) or just random luck?
On January 31 2019 06:17 VGhost wrote: Curious if anybody's got thoughts on the two non-KR stars this year (Serral and Reynor) being Zerg. Any gameplay reason (mechanics, # of Zerg players) or just random luck?
Zerg's playerbase was always very strong in EU server. Serral and Reynor are the last offspring of an eight year old trend of Zerg players often being the best in EU, following the likes of Stephano, Nerchio and Snute.
On January 31 2019 06:17 VGhost wrote: Curious if anybody's got thoughts on the two non-KR stars this year (Serral and Reynor) being Zerg. Any gameplay reason (mechanics, # of Zerg players) or just random luck?
reynor is no star yet
so far he has done nothing that would make him a better greater ore more acomplished zerg than many other foreign zergs for example like scarlet, nerchio, elazer, lambo, snute , stephano ,,,, they and many more are stars they have all won tournaments won more pricemoney , and many of them played blizcon
so far reynor is no star just a young talented player time will tell if he outclass outshine many of the other foreign zergs ore at least be on the same level time will tell if he can win a tournament and be consistent with a good winrate vs good opponents
On January 30 2019 22:53 herwo wrote: poor koreans. they lose to serral one year, and that's when TL decides to have only one "best player of the year" so koreans never benefit from the international/korean split.
Thats because it was just known that best korean = best in the world.
On January 31 2019 00:26 Rodya wrote: Not sure how Showtime > Neeb when the former has a few wins but usually gets embarassed and the latter made ro.4 in code S and only gets EMBARASSED by Maru.
Not sure how Serral isn't the breakout player, and not sure why the biggest rivalry isn't sOs vs Maru. There are no Korean elitists or 'Korean fans'. I don't mind Serral winning, I just find his fans a bit... well you know. But I'm not a Korean fan. My favorite SC2 player is probably Scarlett (assuming that Flash doesn't count).
The only ones pushes this Serral fan vs Korean fan narrative are the Serral fans. Oh well, you live and you learn. And of course, saying Serral > Maru when Maru won 3 Code S in a row betrays your bias.
...are you trolling?
Presuming you're sincere: The reason why Serral isn't the breakout player is because we saw his steady rise for years. The reason why Reynor is the breakout player of 2018 is because the very first year he could play in WCS, he made a finals, and came in 9th-12th in GSL. Hell, Reynor came within a game of making Blizzcon. He is the figurative definition of breakout player.
Good article. Personally I think Rogue vs Serral > Dark vs Solar. Both are good games though. It's a strange year where you can legitimately argue ZvZ had the best matches of the year :O
On January 31 2019 06:17 VGhost wrote: Curious if anybody's got thoughts on the two non-KR stars this year (Serral and Reynor) being Zerg. Any gameplay reason (mechanics, # of Zerg players) or just random luck?
On my level it's way easier to play Zerg than Protoss. CAnnot talk about the highest level(or high as I'm just diamond )
On January 31 2019 18:16 LGC.Peppy wrote: Good article. Personally I think Rogue vs Serral > Dark vs Solar. Both are good games though. It's a strange year where you can legitimately argue ZvZ had the best matches of the year :O
Maru v Rogue was a good series, you can find good games not having 2 zergs in them, it's just hard because of the Z/P heavy WCS.
On January 31 2019 05:20 Charoisaur wrote: Serral player of the year............. foreigner bias and recency bias are just too strong I guess.
It's actually the opposite, Code S bias is too strong.
How many WCS circuit Ro.32 players can advance to Code S Ro.32?
Code S is still significantly harder and more prestigious than WCS, just not to the point where winning three in a row(historical and astonishing accomplishment without a doubt) authomatically makes you player of the year; it would have been true for every year except maybe 2011 but Serral's victories in 2018, not to mention his dominance and winning streak, are more impressive, even if not by much(even when we consider Maru's WESG). That's why I am speaking of Code S bias.
My only problem is the Rogue sum. I understand it feels like a down year for him after his 2017, but he dominated IEM Katowice (not to mention top4 blizzcon) the second biggest event of the year, yet it is summed up like barlely winning an online tournament.. also no KR Zerg came close to his performance this year.
I still think that Maru is the player of the year. He faced harder competition more often, he dominated for a longer time on top-level than Serral did (6 from WESG to GSL3 month vs 4 month from GSL vs World to HSC) and he won GSL 3 times in a row which is just insane.
I don't want to discuss this. I just want to complain.
On February 01 2019 01:20 fronkschnonk wrote: I still think that Maru is the player of the year. He faced harder competition more often, he dominated for a longer time on top-level than Serral did (6 from WESG to GSL3 month vs 4 month from GSL vs World to HSC) and he won GSL 3 times in a row which is just insane.
I don't want to discuss this. I just want to complain.
I was too lazy to write it, but I approve and agree with this message.
It's a shame foreigners get given a different criteria to impress. Maru's 2018 was better than INno's 2017, and Rogue's 2017 was arguably better than Serral's 2018. Yet most people seemed to agree with INno winning POTY last year.
On February 01 2019 06:36 Fango wrote: It's a shame foreigners get given a different criteria to impress. Maru's 2018 was better than INno's 2017, and Rogue's 2017 was arguably better than Serral's 2018. Yet most people seemed to agree with INno winning POTY last year.
You must be deeply convinced of that as it's not the first time you write a similar statement! Maru's 2018 was better than Inno's 2017, indeed.
Now tell me how winning IEM Shanghai and a GSL Super tournament can be better than GSL vs the World and four WCS(plus one HSC); this if we look only at tournament victories as Serral got 3rd at WESG, 3rd/4th at Katowice and was undefeated offline for eight months in 2018 while Rogue made it out of groups twice in Code S in 2017...
It could be that a foreigner winning might impress more but that's not it, the sheer amount of Serral's victories and his dominance are the impressive part; if Polt would have won in 2016 the tournaments Serral did you would have rightfully crowned him player of the year.
On February 01 2019 06:36 Fango wrote: It's a shame foreigners get given a different criteria to impress. Maru's 2018 was better than INno's 2017, and Rogue's 2017 was arguably better than Serral's 2018. Yet most people seemed to agree with INno winning POTY last year.
You must be deeply convinced of that as it's not the first time you write a similar statement! Maru's 2018 was better than Inno's 2017, indeed.
Now tell me how winning IEM Shanghai and a GSL Super tournament can be better than GSL vs the World and four WCS(plus one HSC); this if we look only at tournament victories as Serral got 3rd at WESG, 3rd/4th at Katowice and was undefeated offline for eight months in 2018 while Rogue made it out of groups twice in Code S in 2017...
It could be that a foreigner winning might impress more but that's not it, the sheer amount of Serral's victories and his dominance are the impressive part; if Polt would have won in 2016 the tournaments Serral did you would have rightfully crowned him player of the year.
tell me how winning four WCS (lol) and a GSL vs the world is more impressive than winning IEM Shanghai and a GSL Super Tournament.
On February 01 2019 06:36 Fango wrote: It's a shame foreigners get given a different criteria to impress. Maru's 2018 was better than INno's 2017, and Rogue's 2017 was arguably better than Serral's 2018. Yet most people seemed to agree with INno winning POTY last year.
You must be deeply convinced of that as it's not the first time you write a similar statement! Maru's 2018 was better than Inno's 2017, indeed.
Now tell me how winning IEM Shanghai and a GSL Super tournament can be better than GSL vs the World and four WCS(plus one HSC); this if we look only at tournament victories as Serral got 3rd at WESG, 3rd/4th at Katowice and was undefeated offline for eight months in 2018 while Rogue made it out of groups twice in Code S in 2017...
It could be that a foreigner winning might impress more but that's not it, the sheer amount of Serral's victories and his dominance are the impressive part; if Polt would have won in 2016 the tournaments Serral did you would have rightfully crowned him player of the year.
tell me how winning four WCS (lol) and a GSL vs the world is more impressive than winning IEM Shanghai and a GSL Super Tournament.
The bias is skyrocketing here.
Weren't you the one suggesting to weight results giving a certain amount of points to every tournament based on their tier(assigned following your personal opinion)? Even by your own standards, four WCS should be better feat than a single IEM, despite being of a lesser tier(four points to two if i remember correctly); in addiction to that, the HSC Serral won was not a Premier tournament but very much felt like that. And you are still not considering that Serral had good results during the first part of 2018 before going undefeated while Rogue accomplished nothing before July in 2017.
You are now treating WCS like it was a minor or, at best, a qualifier; the extreme disregard towards any tournament not having korean presence is what makes this discussion ultimately sterile.
On February 01 2019 06:36 Fango wrote: It's a shame foreigners get given a different criteria to impress. Maru's 2018 was better than INno's 2017, and Rogue's 2017 was arguably better than Serral's 2018. Yet most people seemed to agree with INno winning POTY last year.
You must be deeply convinced of that as it's not the first time you write a similar statement! Maru's 2018 was better than Inno's 2017, indeed.
Now tell me how winning IEM Shanghai and a GSL Super tournament can be better than GSL vs the World and four WCS(plus one HSC); this if we look only at tournament victories as Serral got 3rd at WESG, 3rd/4th at Katowice and was undefeated offline for eight months in 2018 while Rogue made it out of groups twice in Code S in 2017...
It could be that a foreigner winning might impress more but that's not it, the sheer amount of Serral's victories and his dominance are the impressive part; if Polt would have won in 2016 the tournaments Serral did you would have rightfully crowned him player of the year.
tell me how winning four WCS (lol) and a GSL vs the world is more impressive than winning IEM Shanghai and a GSL Super Tournament.
The bias is skyrocketing here.
Weren't you the one suggesting to weight results giving a certain amount of points to every tournament based on their tier(assigned following your personal opinion)? Even by your own standards, four WCS should be better feat than a single IEM, despite being of a lesser tier(four points to two if i remember correctly); in addiction to that, the HSC Serral won was not a Premier tournament but very much felt like that. And you are still not considering that Serral had good results during the first part of 2018 before going undefeated while Rogue accomplished nothing before July in 2017.
You are now treating WCS like it was a minor or, at best, a qualifier; the extreme disregard towards any tournament not having korean presence is what makes this discussion ultimately sterile.
put any top 5 korean in Serral's spot and they would've won them as well. If Rogue had participated in WCS in 2017 he'd have won 4 as well on top of IEM Shanghai, Super Tournament and Blizzcon. That's why I have trouble treating Serral's WCS victories very highly.
He just gets rewarded for playing in an easier region. Next thing is we treat Special as the next bonjwa because he wins every Copa america
On February 02 2019 07:02 travis wrote: you can't be serious man he won blizzcon get outta here
responding to me? Yes he won Blizzcon as did Rogue the year before who still wasn't considered player of the year by most people, hence the comparision.
On February 01 2019 06:36 Fango wrote: It's a shame foreigners get given a different criteria to impress. Maru's 2018 was better than INno's 2017, and Rogue's 2017 was arguably better than Serral's 2018. Yet most people seemed to agree with INno winning POTY last year.
You must be deeply convinced of that as it's not the first time you write a similar statement! Maru's 2018 was better than Inno's 2017, indeed.
Now tell me how winning IEM Shanghai and a GSL Super tournament can be better than GSL vs the World and four WCS(plus one HSC); this if we look only at tournament victories as Serral got 3rd at WESG, 3rd/4th at Katowice and was undefeated offline for eight months in 2018 while Rogue made it out of groups twice in Code S in 2017...
It could be that a foreigner winning might impress more but that's not it, the sheer amount of Serral's victories and his dominance are the impressive part; if Polt would have won in 2016 the tournaments Serral did you would have rightfully crowned him player of the year.
tell me how winning four WCS (lol) and a GSL vs the world is more impressive than winning IEM Shanghai and a GSL Super Tournament.
The bias is skyrocketing here.
Weren't you the one suggesting to weight results giving a certain amount of points to every tournament based on their tier(assigned following your personal opinion)? Even by your own standards, four WCS should be better feat than a single IEM, despite being of a lesser tier(four points to two if i remember correctly); in addiction to that, the HSC Serral won was not a Premier tournament but very much felt like that. And you are still not considering that Serral had good results during the first part of 2018 before going undefeated while Rogue accomplished nothing before July in 2017.
You are now treating WCS like it was a minor or, at best, a qualifier; the extreme disregard towards any tournament not having korean presence is what makes this discussion ultimately sterile.
put any top 5 korean in Serral's spot and they would've won them as well. If Rogue had participated in WCS in 2017 he'd have won 4 as well on top of IEM Shanghai, Super Tournament and Blizzcon. That's why I have trouble treating Serral's WCS victories very highly.
He just gets rewarded for playing in an easier region. Next thing is we treat Special as the next bonjwa because he wins every Copa america
Let's assume what you say it's true(and it isn't, at all) Rogue in 2017 before July? He was nowhere near top 5KR so I highly doubt it; he was in great shape around Montreal but Neeb in top form could have been a match for him.
Thinking consecutive victories are granted is foolishness unless the competition is of very low level compared to the one of the player who's entering it; we are not speaking of Malaysian Sc2 championship, WCS is easier than GSL but definitely not as easy as you are making it to be judging from your statements. Any top 5 in KR might win a WCS, that's true; but it's not granted they would and I highly doubt they could have swept the Circuit in 2018 like Serral did as he is and was better than any of them(at least after May).
Even without Serral in the circuit, the amount of ZvZ would have been too hard for Rogue and Dark(Serral almost faltered in Montreal and he's better than them); TY is not consistent and TvT is his best matchup. Stats could have and Maru would have most likely done it. If they were to play against Serral they would have probably won Leipzig and nothing else; don't be so sure Maru would have won GSL 2 and 3 if Serral was there, on the other hand.
Saying Rogue's 2017 can rival or exceed Serral's 2018 defies reason and it's a ridicolously biased conclusion. Maru's 2018 is way closer and we can have a proper discussion here; Maru was the better player in the first part of the year but Serral was relatively more dominant after that. He won more tournament including the most prestigious one, more money, had a better streak(the best in history, to say the truth); the environment Maru played in was harder on average, but not enough to close the gap in results. I understand you can't agree with me as you think Code S counts more than BlizzCon and WCS are on par with Olimoleague monthly finals.
On February 02 2019 14:23 Solar424 wrote: Remember when winning Blizzcon made you the best player in the world? I guess that changed when a non-Korean won it.
Yeah sOs definitely was the best player in 2013 /s
I think a lot of the Serral-Maru debate hinges on how you rate a Circuit stop win. It's definitely a lesser accomplishment than winning a Code S, but some go as far as to look at it as almost meaningless (I don't agree but I can see how you'd arrive there).
There is something else, which I feel is not considered enough regarding Serral. He almost never had poor results during the entire year (except PyeongChang at the very beginning of 2018). Since Nationwars in April, he had a perfect run, winning every tournament he entered. There was literally nothing he could have done from this point to have a better year, as he did not drop a match.
On the other hand, Rogue in 2017 could have had a MUCH better year. He had straight up poor/subpar performances in korean individual leagues.
This can be somewhat extended to Maru, as personally, his inabilities to perform in both super tournaments, GSL vs the world and Blizzcon are what put him behind Serral in the end in 2018. He *just* had to reach the final of Blizzcon to keep his edge over Serral, but he didn't. In a way, he just had more *fails* than Serral.
On February 02 2019 21:02 champyT wrote: There is something else, which I feel is not considered enough regarding Serral. He almost never had poor results during the entire year (except PyeongChang at the very beginning of 2018). Since Nationwars in April, he had a perfect run, winning every tournament he entered. There was literally nothing he could have done from this point to have a better year, as he did not drop a match.
On the other hand, Rogue in 2017 could have had a MUCH better year. He had straight up poor/subpar performances in korean individual leagues.
This can be somewhat extended to Maru, as personally, his inabilities to perform in both super tournaments, GSL vs the world and Blizzcon are what put him behind Serral in the end in 2018. He *just* had to reach the final of Blizzcon to keep his edge over Serral, but he didn't. In a way, he just had more *fails* than Serral.
when you compete in more hard tournaments you naturally have more "fails". Serral failed in WESG and IEM Katowice but he competed only in 4 tournaments with the best players. Maru won 4 tournaments with the best players and failed in 5 so percentage wise there's not a big difference but Maru won more tournaments with all the best players.
Serral "failed" by placing 3rd/4th in Katowice and 3rd in WESG? Maru didn't even reach semifinals in both Super Tournaments and at BlizzCon, that's a fail for the supposed #1 in the world. There were four international tournaments(five if we count Pyeonchang) and Serral did better than Maru at them by winning two to one including the most prestigious of them. BlizzCon doesn't make you the most accomplished player of a certain year but it does when it's the ice on a cake comprised of other six premier tournaments.
After Serral's ascension the assumption korean tournaments authomatically involve all the best players in the world was rendered invalid; Code S, despite being open to everyone in 2018, still required to spend a considerable amount of time in Korea to play in it making it(unsurprisingly) way more of a regional Korean tournament than an international one: Serral was not required to play in it, you know, nor he was someway invited.
I want to add that Maru vs Serral's head to head didn't happen while they both were at their top; ZvT is Serral's worst matchup while Maru's TvZ arguably was his best mu in 2018. Even IF Maru beat Serral, he got taken down very often by Protoss during the whole season displaying a glaring weakness Serral didn't have.
However, I don't want to diminish Maru's accomplishment in 2018; it was probably the third best year anyone has ever had in Sc2(I prefer Mvp's 2011) and he made history with his three consecutive Code S but Serral's 2018 was just the best we have ever witnessed.
Okay GSL has all the best players except one. WCS has none of the best players except one. (Which Serral doesn't even have to play against because he is it himself) The amount of times GSL is harder to win compared to winning WCS is so high I don't understand how you can even remotely compare them. Neeb won 3/4 WCS wins in 2017 despite dropping out in the group stage of both Katowice and Blizzcon but somehow you think top 5 koreans wouldn't be able to dominate WCS.
Not that it matters anyway. An award awarded by members of the foreign community is always going to be heavily biased in favor of the foreigner...
GSL in 2018 was so unbearably harder than WCS Neeb made it to ro4, Scarlett to ro8 and Reynor to ro16; moreover, you need immense consistency to win four consecutive premier tournaments, no matter how strong you are compared to the field.
WCS Zerg are incredibly close to korean ones(actually better at ZvZ in my opinion), Protoss are decent but not there yet whereas Terran are very inferior in skill(and number) compared to korean ones; the gap exists but it's nowhere as huge as you think it is. We are not in 2014 anymore!
As far as I know korean sc2 fans were praising Serral and claiming him to be the best after BlizzCon while Team Liquid hasn't really been the place where the bias for foreigners was strong; even now there are few korean elitits around.
On February 03 2019 03:56 Xain0n wrote: GSL in 2018 was so unbearably harder than WCS Neeb made it to ro4, Scarlett to ro8 and Reynor to ro16; moreover, you need immense consistency to win four consecutive premier tournaments, no matter how strong you are compared to the field.
WCS Zerg are incredibly close to korean ones(actually better at ZvZ in my opinion), Protoss are decent but not there yet whereas Terran are very inferior in skill(and number) compared to korean ones; the gap exists but it's nowhere as huge as you think it is. We are not in 2014 anymore!
As far as I know korean sc2 fans were praising Serral and claiming him to be the best after BlizzCon while Team Liquid hasn't really been the place where the bias for foreigners was strong; even now there are few korean elitits around.
he definitely was the best after Blizzcon however he clearly wasn't the best player of 2018 as a whole. Even the TL Power-Rank had Maru at #1 every time until his Blizzcon win and I fail to see how this one win makes up for being in Maru's shadow the entire rest of the year.
On February 03 2019 03:56 Xain0n wrote: GSL in 2018 was so unbearably harder than WCS Neeb made it to ro4, Scarlett to ro8 and Reynor to ro16; moreover, you need immense consistency to win four consecutive premier tournaments, no matter how strong you are compared to the field.
WCS Zerg are incredibly close to korean ones(actually better at ZvZ in my opinion), Protoss are decent but not there yet whereas Terran are very inferior in skill(and number) compared to korean ones; the gap exists but it's nowhere as huge as you think it is. We are not in 2014 anymore!
As far as I know korean sc2 fans were praising Serral and claiming him to be the best after BlizzCon while Team Liquid hasn't really been the place where the bias for foreigners was strong; even now there are few korean elitits around.
he definitely was the best after Blizzcon however he clearly wasn't the best player of 2018 as a whole. Even the TL Power-Rank had Maru at #1 every time until his Blizzcon win and I fail to see how this one win makes up for being in Maru's shadow the entire rest of the year.
That's due to the lack of international tournaments after WESG in March as GSL vs the world was held in August. Serral was behind Maru in terms of accomplishments until his BlizzCon win and that explains his #2 in Power Rankings but I think he had already become the best player before GSL vs the World. Had Serral lost against Stats there would have been no discussion; BlizzCon is what gave Serral a slight advantage over Maru(and HSC is what sealed it imho).
There were arguably better games this year than the one you picked here. even the caster didn't watch this game but rather checked out the parallel stream... also, if you really wanted yo pick a ZvZ, Serral vs Dark was in my opinion way more interesting.
It is really hard to analyze who was more successful in 2018 between Neeb and Showtime. I've been always a Showtime fan, but during the second half of 2018 Neeb showed to me astonishing games against other favorites. I have to say that a rivarly between Neeb and TY is something that could be seriously considered. Their match in GSL Season 3 is one of the best for the last year too!
On February 02 2019 14:23 Solar424 wrote: Remember when winning Blizzcon made you the best player in the world? I guess that changed when a non-Korean won it.
so sOs was twice the best player of the year? What kind of nonsense is this, do you remember anything before Serral won it?
On February 03 2019 02:39 Xain0n wrote: Serral "failed" by placing 3rd/4th in Katowice and 3rd in WESG? Maru didn't even reach semifinals in both Super Tournaments and at BlizzCon, that's a fail for the supposed #1 in the world. There were four international tournaments(five if we count Pyeonchang) and Serral did better than Maru at them by winning two to one including the most prestigious of them. BlizzCon doesn't make you the most accomplished player of a certain year but it does when it's the ice on a cake comprised of other six premier tournaments.
After Serral's ascension the assumption korean tournaments authomatically involve all the best players in the world was rendered invalid; Code S, despite being open to everyone in 2018, still required to spend a considerable amount of time in Korea to play in it making it(unsurprisingly) way more of a regional Korean tournament than an international one: Serral was not required to play in it, you know, nor he was someway invited.
I want to add that Maru vs Serral's head to head didn't happen while they both were at their top; ZvT is Serral's worst matchup while Maru's TvZ arguably was his best mu in 2018. Even IF Maru beat Serral, he got taken down very often by Protoss during the whole season displaying a glaring weakness Serral didn't have.
However, I don't want to diminish Maru's accomplishment in 2018; it was probably the third best year anyone has ever had in Sc2(I prefer Mvp's 2011) and he made history with his three consecutive Code S but Serral's 2018 was just the best we have ever witnessed.
Yeah, how can Serral show weakness when his weakest MU doesn't offer anyone good in WCS scene except Special(who needs to be in very good form) and he managed to avoid the best Korean Terrans the whole 2018? Gee, I wonder. While Maru had to play all the best Protosses in the world.
At least don't use such ridiculous arguments, c'mon.
On February 02 2019 18:14 Waxangel wrote: I think a lot of the Serral-Maru debate hinges on how you rate a Circuit stop win. It's definitely a lesser accomplishment than winning a Code S, but some go as far as to look at it as almost meaningless (I don't agree but I can see how you'd arrive there).
This is literally all this argument is. It's pointless to argue. There are like 6 or 7 people on this forum that semi-regularly post that are willing to stand up to the opinion that a WCS win isn't significantly less prestigous that a Code S win. It's funny that people think we hate Serral, because we definitely do not. There are other examples of this sort of thing happening in real life, but if I mention them I'll probably get banned. Basically if you don't agree that X is the best thing ever, then that implies that you hate X. Therefore you are shamed into loving X, unless you are willing to accept endless harassment and provocation.
It's too bad, because the sc:r foreigner scene is way more fun and healthy. Just compare the two - playing bw is so much more fun for me because the people I can talk to about it are much more friendly and civil. Even though there are people that agree with the last TL power ranking, you don't get barraged with insults for saying Last > Sharp or Flash > Soulkey. There haven't been derogatory terms reinvented for the use on people who think that BeSt is the best protoss in the world, even though Rain and Mini and Shuttle have put up better results than him offline recently.
On February 02 2019 18:14 Waxangel wrote: I think a lot of the Serral-Maru debate hinges on how you rate a Circuit stop win. It's definitely a lesser accomplishment than winning a Code S, but some go as far as to look at it as almost meaningless (I don't agree but I can see how you'd arrive there).
This is literally all this argument is. It's pointless to argue. There are like 6 or 7 people on this forum that semi-regularly post that are willing to stand up to the opinion that a WCS win isn't significantly less prestigous that a Code S win. It's funny that people think we hate Serral, because we definitely do not. There are other examples of this sort of thing happening in real life, but if I mention them I'll probably get banned. Basically if you don't agree that X is the best thing ever, then that implies that you hate X. Therefore you are shamed into loving X, unless you are willing to accept endless harassment and provocation.
It's too bad, because the sc:r foreigner scene is way more fun and healthy. Just compare the two - playing bw is so much more fun for me because the people I can talk to about it are much more friendly and civil. Even though there are people that agree with the last TL power ranking, you don't get barraged with insults for saying Last > Sharp or Flash > Soulkey. There haven't been derogatory terms reinvented for the use on people who think that BeSt is the best protoss in the world, even though Rain and Mini and Shuttle have put up better results than him offline recently.
Maybe because there doesn't exist a group of obtuse BeSt fans that are terrible at making analogies, and who try to diminish Rain's ASL win every chance they get
On February 02 2019 18:14 Waxangel wrote: I think a lot of the Serral-Maru debate hinges on how you rate a Circuit stop win. It's definitely a lesser accomplishment than winning a Code S, but some go as far as to look at it as almost meaningless (I don't agree but I can see how you'd arrive there).
They aren't meaningless in terms of wins. It doesn't make much sense to hold Serral's wcs wins against korean players that aren't able to play in them. The few mixed weekenders (Katowice, wesg, gsl the world etc) tend to tell the same story, which is that Serral can compete with top koreans but the rest of the wcs field can't.
That and I think everyone knows if you gave Maru four extra tournaments filled with the same players Serral beat across the four wcs wins, he'd have won those four extra tournaments in 2018 as well.
On February 02 2019 14:23 Solar424 wrote: Remember when winning Blizzcon made you the best player in the world? I guess that changed when a non-Korean won it.
Indeed PartinG was #1 in 2012 over Life, Mvp, or DRG sOs was #1 in 2013 over INno, Soulkey, Maru, Dear, or Taeja Life was #1 in 2014 over Zest and soO sOs was #1 in 2015 over Life, Maru, Classic, or herO Rogue was #1 in 2017 over INno and Stats
On February 02 2019 14:23 Solar424 wrote: Remember when winning Blizzcon made you the best player in the world? I guess that changed when a non-Korean won it.
so sOs was twice the best player of the year? What kind of nonsense is this, do you remember anything before Serral won it?
On February 03 2019 02:39 Xain0n wrote: Serral "failed" by placing 3rd/4th in Katowice and 3rd in WESG? Maru didn't even reach semifinals in both Super Tournaments and at BlizzCon, that's a fail for the supposed #1 in the world. There were four international tournaments(five if we count Pyeonchang) and Serral did better than Maru at them by winning two to one including the most prestigious of them. BlizzCon doesn't make you the most accomplished player of a certain year but it does when it's the ice on a cake comprised of other six premier tournaments.
After Serral's ascension the assumption korean tournaments authomatically involve all the best players in the world was rendered invalid; Code S, despite being open to everyone in 2018, still required to spend a considerable amount of time in Korea to play in it making it(unsurprisingly) way more of a regional Korean tournament than an international one: Serral was not required to play in it, you know, nor he was someway invited.
I want to add that Maru vs Serral's head to head didn't happen while they both were at their top; ZvT is Serral's worst matchup while Maru's TvZ arguably was his best mu in 2018. Even IF Maru beat Serral, he got taken down very often by Protoss during the whole season displaying a glaring weakness Serral didn't have.
However, I don't want to diminish Maru's accomplishment in 2018; it was probably the third best year anyone has ever had in Sc2(I prefer Mvp's 2011) and he made history with his three consecutive Code S but Serral's 2018 was just the best we have ever witnessed.
Yeah, how can Serral show weakness when his weakest MU doesn't offer anyone good in WCS scene except Special(who needs to be in very good form) and he managed to avoid the best Korean Terrans the whole 2018? Gee, I wonder. While Maru had to play all the best Protosses in the world.
At least don't use such ridiculous arguments, c'mon.
Ridicolous, you say. So, four of the five tournament losses Maru suffered were inflicted by three top Protoss players; however, those are not in contention for the best player of the year, are they? Relatively to 2018, we could regard them as inferior to Maru so I'd say TvP was his weakness in 2018.
On the other hand, who are the Korean Terran Serral managed to avoid after he ascended? TY, who lost a map to Lambo before being eliminated by Rogue at BlizzCon? Not really. Maru, on the other hand , could have beaten Serral if he managed to reach the finals(which he didn't) even if I personally doubt he would have been capable of, at BlizzCon; moreover, Maru is in the same tier as Serral in contention for the best player in 2018, TvZ was his best matchup during the year and ZvT is Serral's weakest. That's not really the same as Maru's TvP losses, don't you think?
Speaking of Rodya, he is so much better at gauging BW feats since Korea is the single meaningful region and comparing achievements is incredibly easier; no one can say Best is better than Rain looking at what they respectively won. In sc2 you guys are instead under the impression foreigner scene is marginally better than it was in 2014 and that Code S is still embarassingly ahead WCS; GSL is indeed harder and Serral is in a league of his own, but Neeb getting to ro4 should ring a bell . If Serral and Maru were switched, you'd have given give WCS titles to Maru for granted but how can you then doubt Serral would have won Code S at least twice (Season 2 and 3)?
Ahh how I love this discussion. It repeats itself over multiple threads with multiple people involved. We will just have to wait and see what 2019 brings us, starting with IEM. Can't wait - Will Serral cement his status as the (first) SC2 bonjwa? - Will Maru topple the reigning Blizzcon champ? - Will WCS Circuit players step up and get some Top 8 finishes or will the top 8 consist of 7 Koreans + Serral again?
The biggest rivalry award is so spot on, at least there is no discussion XD
On February 02 2019 14:23 Solar424 wrote: Remember when winning Blizzcon made you the best player in the world? I guess that changed when a non-Korean won it.
so sOs was twice the best player of the year? What kind of nonsense is this, do you remember anything before Serral won it?
On February 03 2019 02:39 Xain0n wrote: Serral "failed" by placing 3rd/4th in Katowice and 3rd in WESG? Maru didn't even reach semifinals in both Super Tournaments and at BlizzCon, that's a fail for the supposed #1 in the world. There were four international tournaments(five if we count Pyeonchang) and Serral did better than Maru at them by winning two to one including the most prestigious of them. BlizzCon doesn't make you the most accomplished player of a certain year but it does when it's the ice on a cake comprised of other six premier tournaments.
After Serral's ascension the assumption korean tournaments authomatically involve all the best players in the world was rendered invalid; Code S, despite being open to everyone in 2018, still required to spend a considerable amount of time in Korea to play in it making it(unsurprisingly) way more of a regional Korean tournament than an international one: Serral was not required to play in it, you know, nor he was someway invited.
I want to add that Maru vs Serral's head to head didn't happen while they both were at their top; ZvT is Serral's worst matchup while Maru's TvZ arguably was his best mu in 2018. Even IF Maru beat Serral, he got taken down very often by Protoss during the whole season displaying a glaring weakness Serral didn't have.
However, I don't want to diminish Maru's accomplishment in 2018; it was probably the third best year anyone has ever had in Sc2(I prefer Mvp's 2011) and he made history with his three consecutive Code S but Serral's 2018 was just the best we have ever witnessed.
Yeah, how can Serral show weakness when his weakest MU doesn't offer anyone good in WCS scene except Special(who needs to be in very good form) and he managed to avoid the best Korean Terrans the whole 2018? Gee, I wonder. While Maru had to play all the best Protosses in the world.
At least don't use such ridiculous arguments, c'mon.
Ridicolous, you say. So, four of the five tournament losses Maru suffered were inflicted by three top Protoss players; however, those are not in contention for the best player of the year, are they? Relatively to 2018, we could regard them as inferior to Maru so I'd say TvP was his weakness in 2018.
On the other hand, who are the Korean Terran Serral managed to avoid after he ascended? TY, who lost a map to Lambo before being eliminated by Rogue at BlizzCon? Not really. Maru, on the other hand , could have beaten Serral if he managed to reach the finals(which he didn't) even if I personally doubt he would have been capable of, at BlizzCon; moreover, Maru is in the same tier as Serral in contention for the best player in 2018, TvZ was his best matchup during the year and ZvT is Serral's weakest. That's not really the same as Maru's TvP losses, don't you think?
Speaking of Rodya, he is so much better at gauging BW feats since Korea is the single meaningful region and comparing achievements is incredibly easier; no one can say Best is better than Rain looking at what they respectively won. In sc2 you guys are instead under the impression foreigner scene is marginally better than it was in 2014 and that Code S is still embarassingly ahead WCS; GSL is indeed harder and Serral is in a league of his own, but Neeb getting to ro4 should ring a bell . If Serral and Maru were switched, you'd have given give WCS titles to Maru for granted but how can you then doubt Serral would have won Code S at least twice (Season 2 and 3)?
Maybe if Serral stops avoiding Code S for few seasons we can know better, but currently his bracket luck in 2018 meant he never plyayed TY nor Maru in an offline BO3 or better. The only BO3 against Maru he lost. I believe he wouldn't get any GSL title in 2018.
On February 06 2019 18:29 Harris1st wrote: Ahh how I love this discussion. It repeats itself over multiple threads with multiple people involved. We will just have to wait and see what 2019 brings us, starting with IEM. Can't wait - Will Serral cement his status as the (first) SC2 bonjwa? - Will Maru topple the reigning Blizzcon champ? - Will WCS Circuit players step up and get some Top 8 finishes or will the top 8 consist of 7 Koreans + Serral again?
The biggest rivalry award is so spot on, at least there is no discussion XD
When 3 consecutive Code S titles are not enough for banjo status while 4 lesser tournaments are. Damn.
The possibility of calling a foreigner the player of the year has twisted peoples mind into ignoring logic and reason. It's all blind fanboy hype that speaks out of them. Replace Serral's ID with TRUE and he probably wouldn't even be in contention for player of the year in the shadow of Maru's dominance of the GSL.
The argument those people use to defend their position are quite ridicolous. Suddenly winning Blizzcon alone is the all determining factor for player of the year despite nobody arguing that in the previous years. Suddenly WCS wins are as prestigious as GSL wins despite nobody thinking Neeb's 2017 was as good as Rogue's because they won the same number of tournaments...
On February 02 2019 14:23 Solar424 wrote: Remember when winning Blizzcon made you the best player in the world? I guess that changed when a non-Korean won it.
so sOs was twice the best player of the year? What kind of nonsense is this, do you remember anything before Serral won it?
On February 03 2019 02:39 Xain0n wrote: Serral "failed" by placing 3rd/4th in Katowice and 3rd in WESG? Maru didn't even reach semifinals in both Super Tournaments and at BlizzCon, that's a fail for the supposed #1 in the world. There were four international tournaments(five if we count Pyeonchang) and Serral did better than Maru at them by winning two to one including the most prestigious of them. BlizzCon doesn't make you the most accomplished player of a certain year but it does when it's the ice on a cake comprised of other six premier tournaments.
After Serral's ascension the assumption korean tournaments authomatically involve all the best players in the world was rendered invalid; Code S, despite being open to everyone in 2018, still required to spend a considerable amount of time in Korea to play in it making it(unsurprisingly) way more of a regional Korean tournament than an international one: Serral was not required to play in it, you know, nor he was someway invited.
I want to add that Maru vs Serral's head to head didn't happen while they both were at their top; ZvT is Serral's worst matchup while Maru's TvZ arguably was his best mu in 2018. Even IF Maru beat Serral, he got taken down very often by Protoss during the whole season displaying a glaring weakness Serral didn't have.
However, I don't want to diminish Maru's accomplishment in 2018; it was probably the third best year anyone has ever had in Sc2(I prefer Mvp's 2011) and he made history with his three consecutive Code S but Serral's 2018 was just the best we have ever witnessed.
Yeah, how can Serral show weakness when his weakest MU doesn't offer anyone good in WCS scene except Special(who needs to be in very good form) and he managed to avoid the best Korean Terrans the whole 2018? Gee, I wonder. While Maru had to play all the best Protosses in the world.
At least don't use such ridiculous arguments, c'mon.
Ridicolous, you say. So, four of the five tournament losses Maru suffered were inflicted by three top Protoss players; however, those are not in contention for the best player of the year, are they? Relatively to 2018, we could regard them as inferior to Maru so I'd say TvP was his weakness in 2018.
On the other hand, who are the Korean Terran Serral managed to avoid after he ascended? TY, who lost a map to Lambo before being eliminated by Rogue at BlizzCon? Not really. Maru, on the other hand , could have beaten Serral if he managed to reach the finals(which he didn't) even if I personally doubt he would have been capable of, at BlizzCon; moreover, Maru is in the same tier as Serral in contention for the best player in 2018, TvZ was his best matchup during the year and ZvT is Serral's weakest. That's not really the same as Maru's TvP losses, don't you think?
Speaking of Rodya, he is so much better at gauging BW feats since Korea is the single meaningful region and comparing achievements is incredibly easier; no one can say Best is better than Rain looking at what they respectively won. In sc2 you guys are instead under the impression foreigner scene is marginally better than it was in 2014 and that Code S is still embarassingly ahead WCS; GSL is indeed harder and Serral is in a league of his own, but Neeb getting to ro4 should ring a bell . If Serral and Maru were switched, you'd have given give WCS titles to Maru for granted but how can you then doubt Serral would have won Code S at least twice (Season 2 and 3)?
Maybe if Serral stops avoiding Code S for few seasons we can know better, but currently his bracket luck in 2018 meant he never plyayed TY nor Maru in an offline BO3 or better. The only BO3 against Maru he lost. I believe he wouldn't get any GSL title in 2018.
On February 06 2019 18:29 Harris1st wrote: Ahh how I love this discussion. It repeats itself over multiple threads with multiple people involved. We will just have to wait and see what 2019 brings us, starting with IEM. Can't wait - Will Serral cement his status as the (first) SC2 bonjwa? - Will Maru topple the reigning Blizzcon champ? - Will WCS Circuit players step up and get some Top 8 finishes or will the top 8 consist of 7 Koreans + Serral again?
The biggest rivalry award is so spot on, at least there is no discussion XD
When 3 consecutive Code S titles are not enough for banjo status while 4 lesser tournaments are. Damn.
As I have said multiple times, Maru vs Serral at WESG(it was a bo5) was played when Maru undisputably was the best player in the world, before Serral took the ultimate step to the top; TY's TvZ is not close to Maru's and it's unlikely he could have stopped Serral after his ascension as you are suggesting he could.
You delude yourself if you think the strongest player in the world(Serral) wouldn't have won Code S 2 and 3 if he were to replace Maru; I also think he'd have won at least GSL 3 if he were to play against Maru and that Serral's form at BlizzCon was out of everyone's reach, including Maru.
Bonjwa is about dominance and Maru lost way too many tournaments! Serral has Bonjwa level dominance with his winning streak but he needs to win a wider array of international tournaments; If he wins IEM and/or WESG, he would deserve to be crowned as such.
The last post made me doubt of Chairo's reading skills: I never said WCS are as prestigious as Code S, just that their level was closer in 2018 than in the past and that you can't discharge them as meaningless tournaments . And I never said winning BlizzCon alone was enough to become best player of the year, but that it was the key point in making me think Serral's 2018 was better than Maru's .
I didn't know TRUE was hiding under Serral's mask, but I welcome him as our new Sc2 Overlord without any doubt; try to think TaeJa had the same accomplishment of Serral in 2018 then tell me he wouldn't have won player of the year.
The Serral vs Maru argument comes down to whether you want to penalize players for not attending as many tournaments. Given that Serral wasn't living in Korea, he did absolutely everything he could (within his own power, it isn't his fault Maru couldn't make it to the finals he made) to prove he was the best player in the world from April onwards, unless you want to nit pick about map score or something. Also, not losing a single live match in 7+ months is a ludicrous achievement which is not mentioned enough.
One useful comparison is to consider the tournaments both Maru and Serral attended. Serral has a significantly better record here. They did equally well at IEM Katowice, Maru did better at WESG, and Serral did better at GSL vs the World and Blizzcon. In terms of players WESG was by far the weakest of these four, so unless you value h2h record above all, Serral has a much better performance in their common tournaments.
Neither Serral > Maru nor Maru > Serral are insane or biased ranks, it's about power ranking philosophy at the end of the day.
I didn't know TRUE was hiding under Serral's mask, but I welcome him as our new Sc2 Overlord without any doubt; try to think TaeJa had the same accomplishment of Serral in 2018 then tell me he wouldn't have won player of the year.
I'm surprised TaeJa didn't win player of the year after his good HSC performance so he's probably not the best example. Also I don't think WCS wins are meaningless in general but just that they're meaningless when comparing Serral to Maru. Would have Maru won those tournaments if he was in Serral's place? 100% yes considering how he trashes foreigners at WESG so I don't understand how you can count them as an accomplishment for Serral that makes him somehow surpass Maru's achievements.
@dysenterimd: So you want to completely leave GSL out of the equation because Serral didn't compete in them? Damn, just when I thought the logic behind calling Serral player of the year couldn't become more flawed.
I appreciated the TaeJa joke! Maybe if he beat Serral xD
I don't get why you would exclude WCS while retaining Code S; either you weight all the results throughout the year or only the tournaments where Maru and Serral were both present.
Maru could have definitely won all the WCS if he replaced Serral, even if he definitely had not reached his best level yet when Leipzeig was played: he lost 2-3 to TIME in WESG qualifiers less than two weeks before the event and got soundly defeated by herO 2-0 in his Code S a couple of days after.
This brings us to the question I previously asked: don't you think Serral would have won Code S if he was in Maru's place?
On February 02 2019 14:23 Solar424 wrote: Remember when winning Blizzcon made you the best player in the world? I guess that changed when a non-Korean won it.
so sOs was twice the best player of the year? What kind of nonsense is this, do you remember anything before Serral won it?
On February 03 2019 02:39 Xain0n wrote: Serral "failed" by placing 3rd/4th in Katowice and 3rd in WESG? Maru didn't even reach semifinals in both Super Tournaments and at BlizzCon, that's a fail for the supposed #1 in the world. There were four international tournaments(five if we count Pyeonchang) and Serral did better than Maru at them by winning two to one including the most prestigious of them. BlizzCon doesn't make you the most accomplished player of a certain year but it does when it's the ice on a cake comprised of other six premier tournaments.
After Serral's ascension the assumption korean tournaments authomatically involve all the best players in the world was rendered invalid; Code S, despite being open to everyone in 2018, still required to spend a considerable amount of time in Korea to play in it making it(unsurprisingly) way more of a regional Korean tournament than an international one: Serral was not required to play in it, you know, nor he was someway invited.
I want to add that Maru vs Serral's head to head didn't happen while they both were at their top; ZvT is Serral's worst matchup while Maru's TvZ arguably was his best mu in 2018. Even IF Maru beat Serral, he got taken down very often by Protoss during the whole season displaying a glaring weakness Serral didn't have.
However, I don't want to diminish Maru's accomplishment in 2018; it was probably the third best year anyone has ever had in Sc2(I prefer Mvp's 2011) and he made history with his three consecutive Code S but Serral's 2018 was just the best we have ever witnessed.
Yeah, how can Serral show weakness when his weakest MU doesn't offer anyone good in WCS scene except Special(who needs to be in very good form) and he managed to avoid the best Korean Terrans the whole 2018? Gee, I wonder. While Maru had to play all the best Protosses in the world.
At least don't use such ridiculous arguments, c'mon.
Ridicolous, you say. So, four of the five tournament losses Maru suffered were inflicted by three top Protoss players; however, those are not in contention for the best player of the year, are they? Relatively to 2018, we could regard them as inferior to Maru so I'd say TvP was his weakness in 2018.
On the other hand, who are the Korean Terran Serral managed to avoid after he ascended? TY, who lost a map to Lambo before being eliminated by Rogue at BlizzCon? Not really. Maru, on the other hand , could have beaten Serral if he managed to reach the finals(which he didn't) even if I personally doubt he would have been capable of, at BlizzCon; moreover, Maru is in the same tier as Serral in contention for the best player in 2018, TvZ was his best matchup during the year and ZvT is Serral's weakest. That's not really the same as Maru's TvP losses, don't you think?
Speaking of Rodya, he is so much better at gauging BW feats since Korea is the single meaningful region and comparing achievements is incredibly easier; no one can say Best is better than Rain looking at what they respectively won. In sc2 you guys are instead under the impression foreigner scene is marginally better than it was in 2014 and that Code S is still embarassingly ahead WCS; GSL is indeed harder and Serral is in a league of his own, but Neeb getting to ro4 should ring a bell . If Serral and Maru were switched, you'd have given give WCS titles to Maru for granted but how can you then doubt Serral would have won Code S at least twice (Season 2 and 3)?
Maybe if Serral stops avoiding Code S for few seasons we can know better, but currently his bracket luck in 2018 meant he never plyayed TY nor Maru in an offline BO3 or better. The only BO3 against Maru he lost. I believe he wouldn't get any GSL title in 2018.
On February 06 2019 18:29 Harris1st wrote: Ahh how I love this discussion. It repeats itself over multiple threads with multiple people involved. We will just have to wait and see what 2019 brings us, starting with IEM. Can't wait - Will Serral cement his status as the (first) SC2 bonjwa? - Will Maru topple the reigning Blizzcon champ? - Will WCS Circuit players step up and get some Top 8 finishes or will the top 8 consist of 7 Koreans + Serral again?
The biggest rivalry award is so spot on, at least there is no discussion XD
When 3 consecutive Code S titles are not enough for banjo status while 4 lesser tournaments are. Damn.
You delude yourself if you think the strongest player in the world(Serral) wouldn't have won Code S 2 and 3 if he were to replace Maru; I also think he'd have won at least GSL 3 if he were to play against Maru and that Serral's form at BlizzCon was out of everyone's reach, including Maru.
Bonjwa is about dominance and Maru lost way too many tournaments! Serral has Bonjwa level dominance with his winning streak but he needs to win a wider array of international tournaments; If he wins IEM and/or WESG, he would deserve to be crowned as such.
Serral in blizzcon form? Sure. He showed one of the highest peaks of skill ever in starcraft. But Serral in the form he was at WCS Montreal, or even Valencia, would not have won Code S. Needing players like Scarlett, Lambo, Reynor, or Has to throw is not Code S champion form.
Stepping up and being in incredible form for two weekends in a whole year does not mean you can maintain that and win a Code S. Serral coasted through the WCS events the same way Maru coasted through GSL ro32/16s (which probably has a similar level of players). I think Maru stepping up and became unbeatable for GSL playoffs is quite similar to the way Serral looked beatable at the wcs stops then went god-mode for GSLvsTW and blizzcon.
You say Maru lost too many tournaments but he still won as many as top level events as Serral even entered. Winning two weekenders just isn't as good as three Code S. Rogue won four weekenders in a row and no one except Artosis called him a bonjwa or player of the year. The primary reason being never got past GSL ro8 even when he clearly had the skill to win it.
On February 06 2019 22:11 Xain0n wrote: I appreciated the TaeJa joke! Maybe if he beat Serral xD
I don't get why you would exclude WCS while retaining Code S; either you weight all the results throughout the year or only the tournaments where Maru and Serral were both present.
Maru could have definitely won all the WCS if he replaced Serral, even if he definitely had not reached his best level yet when Leipzeig was played: he lost 2-3 to TIME in WESG qualifiers less than two weeks before the event and got soundly defeated by herO 2-0 in his Code S a couple of days after
It's worth noting that Maru vs Keen match was irrelevant and he didn't take it seriously at all. If I remember correctly in the actual WeSG event he 3-0'd TIME, Nerchio, Scarlett, Reynor, Showtime, and even Serral himself.
And he never played herO in Code S. He did lose to Keen and Classic in groups but beat them both on rematches.
As far as your first point goes, because GSL is just higher level competition. The last Code S season had at least the top 20 players globally except one (Serral). Serral winning WCS is less of an achievement because it didn't have any other top 10 players in. Serral winning blizzcon however is comparable because he beat players on the same level as Maru beat in Code S.
On February 02 2019 14:23 Solar424 wrote: Remember when winning Blizzcon made you the best player in the world? I guess that changed when a non-Korean won it.
so sOs was twice the best player of the year? What kind of nonsense is this, do you remember anything before Serral won it?
On February 03 2019 02:39 Xain0n wrote: Serral "failed" by placing 3rd/4th in Katowice and 3rd in WESG? Maru didn't even reach semifinals in both Super Tournaments and at BlizzCon, that's a fail for the supposed #1 in the world. There were four international tournaments(five if we count Pyeonchang) and Serral did better than Maru at them by winning two to one including the most prestigious of them. BlizzCon doesn't make you the most accomplished player of a certain year but it does when it's the ice on a cake comprised of other six premier tournaments.
After Serral's ascension the assumption korean tournaments authomatically involve all the best players in the world was rendered invalid; Code S, despite being open to everyone in 2018, still required to spend a considerable amount of time in Korea to play in it making it(unsurprisingly) way more of a regional Korean tournament than an international one: Serral was not required to play in it, you know, nor he was someway invited.
I want to add that Maru vs Serral's head to head didn't happen while they both were at their top; ZvT is Serral's worst matchup while Maru's TvZ arguably was his best mu in 2018. Even IF Maru beat Serral, he got taken down very often by Protoss during the whole season displaying a glaring weakness Serral didn't have.
However, I don't want to diminish Maru's accomplishment in 2018; it was probably the third best year anyone has ever had in Sc2(I prefer Mvp's 2011) and he made history with his three consecutive Code S but Serral's 2018 was just the best we have ever witnessed.
Yeah, how can Serral show weakness when his weakest MU doesn't offer anyone good in WCS scene except Special(who needs to be in very good form) and he managed to avoid the best Korean Terrans the whole 2018? Gee, I wonder. While Maru had to play all the best Protosses in the world.
At least don't use such ridiculous arguments, c'mon.
Ridicolous, you say. So, four of the five tournament losses Maru suffered were inflicted by three top Protoss players; however, those are not in contention for the best player of the year, are they? Relatively to 2018, we could regard them as inferior to Maru so I'd say TvP was his weakness in 2018.
On the other hand, who are the Korean Terran Serral managed to avoid after he ascended? TY, who lost a map to Lambo before being eliminated by Rogue at BlizzCon? Not really. Maru, on the other hand , could have beaten Serral if he managed to reach the finals(which he didn't) even if I personally doubt he would have been capable of, at BlizzCon; moreover, Maru is in the same tier as Serral in contention for the best player in 2018, TvZ was his best matchup during the year and ZvT is Serral's weakest. That's not really the same as Maru's TvP losses, don't you think?
Speaking of Rodya, he is so much better at gauging BW feats since Korea is the single meaningful region and comparing achievements is incredibly easier; no one can say Best is better than Rain looking at what they respectively won. In sc2 you guys are instead under the impression foreigner scene is marginally better than it was in 2014 and that Code S is still embarassingly ahead WCS; GSL is indeed harder and Serral is in a league of his own, but Neeb getting to ro4 should ring a bell . If Serral and Maru were switched, you'd have given give WCS titles to Maru for granted but how can you then doubt Serral would have won Code S at least twice (Season 2 and 3)?
Maybe if Serral stops avoiding Code S for few seasons we can know better, but currently his bracket luck in 2018 meant he never plyayed TY nor Maru in an offline BO3 or better. The only BO3 against Maru he lost. I believe he wouldn't get any GSL title in 2018.
On February 06 2019 18:29 Harris1st wrote: Ahh how I love this discussion. It repeats itself over multiple threads with multiple people involved. We will just have to wait and see what 2019 brings us, starting with IEM. Can't wait - Will Serral cement his status as the (first) SC2 bonjwa? - Will Maru topple the reigning Blizzcon champ? - Will WCS Circuit players step up and get some Top 8 finishes or will the top 8 consist of 7 Koreans + Serral again?
The biggest rivalry award is so spot on, at least there is no discussion XD
When 3 consecutive Code S titles are not enough for banjo status while 4 lesser tournaments are. Damn.
We can call Serral the foreigner bonjwa for now, until he cements his status at IEM. I would think nobody can argue with that, but you guys will find a way, I'm sure
On February 06 2019 22:11 Xain0n wrote: I appreciated the TaeJa joke! Maybe if he beat Serral xD
I don't get why you would exclude WCS while retaining Code S; either you weight all the results throughout the year or only the tournaments where Maru and Serral were both present.
Maru could have definitely won all the WCS if he replaced Serral, even if he definitely had not reached his best level yet when Leipzeig was played: he lost 2-3 to TIME in WESG qualifiers less than two weeks before the event and got soundly defeated by herO 2-0 in his Code S a couple of days after
It's worth noting that Maru vs Keen match was irrelevant and he didn't take it seriously at all. If I remember correctly in the actual WeSG event he 3-0'd TIME, Nerchio, Scarlett, Reynor, Showtime, and even Serral himself.
And he never played herO in Code S. He did lose to Keen and Classic in groups but beat them both on rematches.
As far as your first point goes, because GSL is just higher level competition. The last Code S season had at least the top 20 players globally except one (Serral). Serral winning WCS is less of an achievement because it didn't have any other top 10 players in. Serral winning blizzcon however is comparable because he beat players on the same level as Maru beat in Code S.
Code S being harder competition doesn't mean you can completely discard WCS, whose level is evidently higher than you think: how do you explain Neeb's and Reynor's run(the latter was arguably eliminated because of a very hard group) after basically saying top 20 players in the world were all koreans but Serral? Scarlett's Code S run and Pyeonchang victory, too, would suggest that WCS best players could be worth Ro8/ro4 code S spots; definitely not merely ro16/ro32 as you say.
According to Liquipedia, herO beat Maru the 31st of January 2018 in Group H of Code S Season 1! I was trying to show that Maru in January wasn't as good as he became in March so implying him autowinning WCS Leipzeig isn't that safe;. the same goes for Serral not having reached his peak when he had to face Maru at WESG main event.
I agree that Serral looked mortal and beatable in Montreal, not that much in Valencia where only Scarlett tested him; I'd say, too, that Maru seemed more vulnerable, as well as not as creative, after Code S season 2 and was very close to lose Season 3 finals.
Serral didn't just step up for two weekenders, in 2018 he had the longest and most dominant offline streak ever(top koreans included) that started after Nation Wars and made him win the two(three if we count HSC) international Championship that were played during this period, namely GSL vs the World and BlizzCon. Region locked or not, Code S is a regional tournament as it practically forces you to live in Korea for months so you can't really blame Serral for not playing it(even if I'd love he would try in 2019); he won all the regional championships related to the region he is part of, WCS, and you can't say it counts nothing because it's not as competitive as GSL.
Regarding Rogue, I'll never cease to repeat he won three weekenders in 2017 after having accomplished nothing in the first half of the year, the fourth being Katowice in March 2018; that's why he was not player of the year(and i lol at Artosis calling him Bonjwa).
@Charoisaur My point wasn't that GSL is irrelevant; were it not for GSL Maru wouldn't even be in the discussion for player of the year. The relevant points to the Maru vs Serral debate are as follows: 1. Serral did quite a bit better than Maru at large international events 2. Both Serral and Maru dominated their respective regions; both displayed unprecedented levels of consistency 3. GSL is without a doubt more difficult than WCS. Without constant live matches between GSL and WCS players it's impossible to judge how big this gap is.
So, Serral vs Maru ultimately comes down to judging just how much harder Code S is than WCS. Unfortunately, the current system doesn't have enough truly international events to determine the answer to that question, hence why Maru and Serral are both perfectly defensible choices for best player of 2018.