Hope that will be enough though.
Feb 12 Community Update (Blink cost rollback)
Forum Index > SC2 General |
bObA
France300 Posts
Hope that will be enough though. | ||
MiCroLiFe
Norway264 Posts
| ||
RedJohnSC2
10 Posts
| ||
Akio
Finland1823 Posts
| ||
MiCroLiFe
Norway264 Posts
| ||
Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
| ||
Parcelleus
Australia1662 Posts
| ||
hiroshOne
Poland423 Posts
They should nerf nydus little bit and bring back Overlord Drops at hatchery tech to keep some agressive options in early game for Zerg. If they only nerf nydus, Protoss will be back to this ballshit state, where thay can do whatever they want without even thinking about possibility of danger. | ||
starkiller123
United States4029 Posts
On March 08 2019 14:53 Parcelleus wrote: Buffed Tanks (like never before), buffed marauders, bufffed widow mines, ridiculous economy with low worker count, buffed Bc's, buffed Thors.. as for terran whining... Just F*** Off ! lol its possible to be hyperbolic about any of the races, that proves nothing. Like can you imagine the ability to get map hacks with free building across the map that also makes your units move faster? and buffing ultras so they are even faster?? Instant nydus worm?? ridiculous! /s | ||
BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On March 08 2019 15:02 hiroshOne wrote: Warprism+mass chargelots is also insta win for Protoss if not scouted. And as i agree with nydus being ballshit right now, this argument is ballshit too. They should nerf nydus little bit and bring back Overlord Drops at hatchery tech to keep some agressive options in early game for Zerg. If they only nerf nydus, Protoss will be back to this ballshit state, where thay can do whatever they want without even thinking about possibility of danger. not sure if serious first of all, the prism + chargelot argument doesnt even make sense. if prism + chargelot = instawin, then protoss wouldve dominated all the tournaments over the years. second of all, don't apply equal standards to all races. race asymmetry is the hallmark of starcraft. the protoss armies are slow and heavily reliant on death balls, ie the armies need a variety of units together to not get slaughtered. without warp prism, protoss would have zero ability to have some kind of sustained map presence (zerg has creep + fastest armies in the game, and terran has their entrenched positions) in the mid to late game. the mechanics are different as well. the nydus is the most powerful all-in tool in the game. a warp prism, as well as terran doom drop, can be scouted, repelled/killed easily and that's that. and they are only as strong as their cargo. Nydus only needs vision, which zerg has plenty of methods (overlord, overseer, changeling, speedling) to threaten moving an entire army into enemy base. Nydus worms are cheap and difficult to kill with no cool down of course there are the little things that nydus networks allow to do which is real BS. teleporting mass queens, an incredibly pound-for-pound strong unit in the early game and eliminating their drawback of being slow af. allowing for swarm host hit and run, where even if the terran/protoss has his base covered, a zerg can nydus right outside and throw free units at enemy base so while a protoss/terran player, with slower armies is busy trying to level the playing field by killing creep so that the zerg doesnt have complete reign over the map, the zerg army, which is already probably already running circles around the terran/protoss army, can teleport into the terran/protoss sim city for 50/50. zerg logistics are just insane | ||
seemsgood
5527 Posts
On March 08 2019 14:53 Parcelleus wrote: Buffed Tanks (like never before), buffed marauders, bufffed widow mines, ridiculous economy with low worker count, buffed Bc's, buffed Thors.. as for terran whining... Just F*** Off ! but they didn't buff the freedom circle tho some things are not easy to replace and freedom is one of them | ||
Z3nith
485 Posts
The problem is I don't know what you could do that would provide a solid enough buff without breaking both TvP and TvZ. Maybe a buff or new ability for the raven available in the late game? maybe the reduction of battlecruiser cost? I think the problem is Terran really lacks in this kind of tier 2.5 ground unit that could act as part of a backbone with the marine and Marauder. Maybe if the ghost were buffed it could fill out that role? Though it would require the ghost to be redesigned from the ground up. | ||
seemsgood
5527 Posts
On March 08 2019 12:08 Ben... wrote: Something needs to be done with nydus. It's too much. I've never seen Parting complain about balance on stream in a year of watching him but even he was saying that some of the ultra-fast nydus rushes with it are basically impossible to stop unless you know they are coming (which on long rush maps like Year Zero, you can't because your scouting adept can't scout it in time. He showed this in the replay on his stream). Lots of prominent pros and streamers are saying it's too much. Rotterdam was saying that the new nydus is a big factor in why he wasn't having as much fun with SC2 lately. well...when someone in the balance team wondering how does it feel to get proxy BC'd as protoss but real BCs suck so they give zerg new "BC" instead | ||
seemsgood
5527 Posts
On March 09 2019 08:58 Z3nith wrote: Although based on Katowice in isolation, the evidence is pretty damning I think we need to wait at least until the conclusion of GSL S1 before any huge changes are made. Furthermore, it would have to be a buff to terran rather than a protoss nerf as honestly, the state of PvZ has been almost as dire as TvP for a while now. The problem is I don't know what you could do that would provide a solid enough buff without breaking both TvP and TvZ. Maybe a buff or new ability for the raven available in the late game? maybe the reduction of battlecruiser cost? I think the problem is Terran really lacks in this kind of tier 2.5 ground unit that could act as part of a backbone with the marine and Marauder. Maybe if the ghost were buffed it could fill out that role? Though it would require the ghost to be redesigned from the ground up. i agree but one thing whatever they do to this game i don't want to watch the same damn TvP throughout 3 fucking GSLs like last year thier decisions in last year were ineffective and only promoted moar hideous terran's builds they need to hit harder,stronger make everything burnssssss | ||
BerserkSword
United States2123 Posts
On March 09 2019 08:58 Z3nith wrote: Although based on Katowice in isolation, the evidence is pretty damning I think we need to wait at least until the conclusion of GSL S1 before any huge changes are made. Furthermore, it would have to be a buff to terran rather than a protoss nerf as honestly, the state of PvZ has been almost as dire as TvP for a while now. The problem is I don't know what you could do that would provide a solid enough buff without breaking both TvP and TvZ. Maybe a buff or new ability for the raven available in the late game? maybe the reduction of battlecruiser cost? I think the problem is Terran really lacks in this kind of tier 2.5 ground unit that could act as part of a backbone with the marine and Marauder. Maybe if the ghost were buffed it could fill out that role? Though it would require the ghost to be redesigned from the ground up. The reason you dont know what you could do fix your problem is because there is no problem. Terran does not need a buff, especially with regards to your idea of a "2.5" ground unit. Terran already has ground units to augment the insane efficiency of bio. Tanks, Widow Mines, and even Thors. Battlecruisers and Ghosts already massacre Zerg, and you want to buff them without breaking TvZ? And the Raven, which is already one buff from being broken again? Interference matrix already shuts down any disruptor/collussus necessary to prevent gateway units from being melted by bio. | ||
Z3nith
485 Posts
On March 09 2019 09:15 BerserkSword wrote: The reason you dont know what you could do fix your problem is because there is no problem. Terran does not need a buff, especially with regards to your idea of a "2.5" ground unit. Terran already has ground units to augment the insane efficiency of bio. Tanks, Widow Mines, and even Thors. Battlecruisers and Ghosts already massacre Zerg, and you want to buff them without breaking TvZ? And the Raven, which is already one buff from being broken again? Interference matrix already shuts down any disruptor/collussus necessary to prevent gateway units from being melted by bio. No I do think there is a problem, although admittedly it likely isn't as bad as many Terrans make it out to be. The entire basis of Terran strategy versus Protoss at the moment is the exact opposite of what the design team had in mind in regards to immediate game ending scenarios. It seems that most TvPs end in the mid-game when the Terran either rolls over the Protoss through a timing attack or the protoss defends said timing attack and just wins. If I could honestly say that I could see the possibility of Terran wanting to go into the late game versus Protoss then fair enough but the fact is that for the past year or so there have been a distinct lack of PvT games that make it past the midgame. | ||
Tyrhanius
France947 Posts
On March 09 2019 08:23 BerserkSword wrote: not sure if serious first of all, the prism + chargelot argument doesnt even make sense. if prism + chargelot = instawin, then protoss wouldve dominated all the tournaments over the years. second of all, don't apply equal standards to all races. race asymmetry is the hallmark of starcraft. the protoss armies are slow and heavily reliant on death balls, ie the armies need a variety of units together to not get slaughtered. without warp prism, protoss would have zero ability to have some kind of sustained map presence (zerg has creep + fastest armies in the game, and terran has their entrenched positions) in the mid to late game. the mechanics are different as well. the nydus is the most powerful all-in tool in the game. a warp prism, as well as terran doom drop, can be scouted, repelled/killed easily and that's that. and they are only as strong as their cargo. Nydus only needs vision, which zerg has plenty of methods (overlord, overseer, changeling, speedling) to threaten moving an entire army into enemy base. Nydus worms are cheap and difficult to kill with no cool down of course there are the little things that nydus networks allow to do which is real BS. teleporting mass queens, an incredibly pound-for-pound strong unit in the early game and eliminating their drawback of being slow af. allowing for swarm host hit and run, where even if the terran/protoss has his base covered, a zerg can nydus right outside and throw free units at enemy base so while a protoss/terran player, with slower armies is busy trying to level the playing field by killing creep so that the zerg doesnt have complete reign over the map, the zerg army, which is already probably already running circles around the terran/protoss army, can teleport into the terran/protoss sim city for 50/50. zerg logistics are just insane Fastest nyndus build i know is hatch first, lair ASAP no speedling, 1 more gas, roach warren, nyndus and it comes at 4:30. This build have existed since ever (here is a vod from 2015 that explains how to do it : www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUjLd0LPqfQ)... The change on nyndus doesn't make it much stronger, actually before it was invincible and you couldn't prevent it to pop. The scouting is easy, you send the shade of your adept on B1 to check and see the fast lair, aslo no B3 (or maybe a fake one), no speedling . And then like vs every two bases all-in you cut worker production and build emergency army. The number of units you need to kill a nyndus have been posted on battle.net : 0.1 time reaction : https://docdro.id/wz6J3zH 5s time reaction (= 9s left to kill nyndus): https://docdro.id/qGPxs9N 10s time reaction : https://docdro.id/96SVCKx No way this all-in works vs someone decent if scouted. The problem is you don't scout... Also you start whining here for that one time you need to learn to deal with a cheese from zerg, while zerg has to learn each season to defend the new P/T cheese : Beginning of LOTV : proxy reapers everygame, adepts cheese each time, MSC core harass, then 2/1/1, oracles harass, PICA, archons drops etc... Now recently we had the proxy canon immortal/shield batteries, we face archons drops every games, learn to face the BC with teleport, cyclons/hellions new style, and we still need to know how to counter the old shool cheeses. Recently, i've die on a proxy reaper as i was doing the fast three hatch before the first reaper arrive so i have late speedling. You complain that each nyndus you kill only cost 50/50 ? I would love to make that trade, currently if i don't see the DT i'm dead, but if i perfectly react to it, Protoss just make archons, kill free stuff, and with pick up range he can't lose them. And sorry, if zerg is doing the nyndus all-in, he is all-in, it fails end of the game = victory for you. The BC/archons drops etc... are not all-in, we don't counter =defeat for us, we counter and the game just continue and we can still lose. Here you seem like the the child too spoiled that start to complain at the first frustration while his other siblings were taught the hard way and suffered ten times more than that without complaining. So pick the data we provide to you, learn to counter that BO, and stop acting it's imbalance when it's just a learn to play issue like us zerg need to face every seasons. | ||
MockHamill
Sweden1793 Posts
Even though it is theoretically possible to play late game vs Protoss the mechanical requirements are so extremely high it is not feasible in practice. I am not sure what the solution is. Maybe decrease Disruptor range and making HT 3 supply would help somewhat in the late game. Making Tempest less of hard counter to BCs would also help. | ||
Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On March 09 2019 21:31 Tyrhanius wrote: You're missing the point and your knowledge is out of date. Parting faced a nydus rush on stream that hit at 3:50 that featured 3-4 queens and mass zerglings off essentially one base (there was a second hatchery for production only). This rush has also appeared on several other prominent protoss streams. That timing is before warpgate is done, and on the map he was on, Year Zero, the rush distance was big enough that adepts would be unable to make it to the main to scout in time or would scout as the worm was already put down in the protoss base. Parting actually managed to kill the first nydus head after the queens and some of the zerglings had got out, but the problem is that the zerg started a second at his natural the instant the first one finished and it was more or less unstoppable since all Parting's units were tied up in the main trying to kill the all the units there. So he then proceeded to lose his entire natural mineral line with little in ways to defend.Fastest nyndus build i know is hatch first, lair ASAP no speedling, 1 more gas, roach warren, nyndus and it comes at 4:30. This build have existed since ever (here is a vod from 2015 that explains how to do it : www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUjLd0LPqfQ)... The change on nyndus doesn't make it much stronger, actually before it was invincible and you couldn't prevent it to pop. The scouting is easy, you send the shade of your adept on B1 to check and see the fast lair, aslo no B3 (or maybe a fake one), no speedling . And then like vs every two bases all-in you cut worker production and build emergency army. The number of units you need to kill a nyndus have been posted on battle.net : 0.1 time reaction : https://docdro.id/wz6J3zH 5s time reaction (= 9s left to kill nyndus): https://docdro.id/qGPxs9N 10s time reaction : https://docdro.id/96SVCKx No way this all-in works vs someone decent if scouted. The problem is you don't scout... Also you start whining here for that one time you need to learn to deal with a cheese from zerg, while zerg has to learn each season to defend the new P/T cheese : Beginning of LOTV : proxy reapers everygame, adepts cheese each time, MSC core harass, then 2/1/1, oracles harass, PICA, archons drops etc... Now recently we had the proxy canon immortal/shield batteries, we face archons drops every games, learn to face the BC with teleport, cyclons/hellions new style, and we still need to know how to counter the old shool cheeses. Recently, i've die on a proxy reaper as i was doing the fast three hatch before the first reaper arrive so i have late speedling. You complain that each nyndus you kill only cost 50/50 ? I would love to make that trade, currently if i don't see the DT i'm dead, but if i perfectly react to it, Protoss just make archons, kill free stuff, and with pick up range he can't lose them. And sorry, if zerg is doing the nyndus all-in, he is all-in, it fails end of the game = victory for you. The BC/archons drops etc... are not all-in, we don't counter =defeat for us, we counter and the game just continue and we can still lose. Here you seem like the the child too spoiled that start to complain at the first frustration while his other siblings were taught the hard way and suffered ten times more than that without complaining. So pick the data we provide to you, learn to counter that BO, and stop acting it's imbalance when it's just a learn to play issue like us zerg need to face every seasons. The problem isn't the rush itself, it's that this rush is in the same category as the 1/1/1 was. If you prepare for it and it happens, you're fine, but if you prepare and it doesn't happen you are automatically behind and will likely lose. Not preparing for it amounts to a build order loss. It's the same reasoning they got rid of hatch tech drops last year. Those forced the opponent to play a certain way to defend them or else risk losing the game outright. The new nydus is exactly the same. This rush is in some ways more powerful than the old invincible nydus rush in that the unload speed is so fast that the zerg is all but guaranteed to get multiple queens out and get a transfuse done while the zerglings exit fast enough to overwhelm the protoss, and since the exits are so cheap, zerg can throw down a second one far from the first and protoss basically can't defend both at once. The only way to hold it comfortably is to rush higher damage units like zealots, immortals, void rays, etc. and have perfect vision of your base at all times. This puts protoss behind if zerg does literally anything else than a nydus rush. If they scout protoss is preparing to defend nydus, they can just drone and then be massively ahead because protoss is spending all their gas to defend something that isn't going to happen. The balance team's idea for using nydus in the mid and late game is cool, and quite like BW, but the changes they made to nydus made it slightly better for that intent, but were a big buff to rushes, which is exactly what they said they wanted to get away from. To fix this issue all they literally need to do is either make the heads take longer to pop so there is a better chance of the defender killing them, or make the nydus building itself take a bit longer to build. Defending this rush even 30 seconds later would be much more reasonable for the protoss player since they could have the units in time and not scouting it would be on them. But as it is right now, this rush hits when protoss has at most 2-3 gateway units and maybe an oracle and mass zerglings and a few queens can kill that small of an army with little trouble. | ||
Cyro
United Kingdom20145 Posts
You're missing the point and your knowledge is out of date. Parting faced a nydus rush on stream that hit at 3:50 that featured 3-4 queens and mass zerglings off essentially one base (there was a second hatchery for production only). This rush has also appeared on several other prominent protoss streams. That timing is before warpgate is done, and on the map he was on, Year Zero, the rush distance was big enough that adepts would be unable to make it to the main to scout in time or would scout as the worm was already put down in the protoss base. Parting actually managed to kill the first nydus head after the queens and some of the zerglings had got out, but the problem is that the zerg started a second at his natural the instant the first one finished and it was more or less unstoppable since all Parting's units were tied up in the main trying to kill the all the units there. So he then proceeded to lose his entire natural mineral line with little in ways to defend. The problem isn't the rush itself, it's that this rush is in the same category as the 1/1/1 was. If you prepare for it and it happens, you're fine, but if you prepare and it doesn't happen you are automatically behind and will likely lose. Not preparing for it amounts to a build order loss. It's the same reasoning they got rid of hatch tech drops last year. Those forced the opponent to play a certain way to defend them or else risk losing the game outright. The new nydus is exactly the same. My ZvP MMR is higher than PvZ despite playing protoss 10x more because of this opening - so many ways that P can play amount to a straight up build order loss but a tailored counter only gives each side a chance to win while putting P behind against some other plays. It's so early in the game that a lot of scouting can't yet come into play, a common theme in ridiculous coinflip/all-in openings over the years. The nydus buffs were also specifically focused on making it a nearly unstoppable force in the extremely early game which seems bizarre to me; changes like giving it a lot of armor before it comes out of the ground. That's far more relevant for building a nydus in somebodies face at 3:50 - so that they can't stop it despite having most of their units and a worker surround hitting the underground worm - than it is for any kind of midgame nydus play. Load/unload speed is good. | ||
| ||