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TL.net115 Posts
Tarson Penalized For Leaking Results
It has come to our attention that Tarson spoiled the results of his Ro16 match with Nony by posting on a Polish forum. These posts happened immediately after his match with Nony and several hours before the TSL Ro16 Broadcast that showed his games.
Tarson's Posts (Translation from Polish included): + Show Spoiler [Show Posts] +"I advise you to not watch my games." "I'm just saying do not watch those fucking games, fucked up... [more expletives, grief, regret] ... fucking starcraft. I can't believe myself what has happened" "Where did I write result ? I'm saying to not watch [those] games, that's all lol ;]" We understand the frustration and anger that comes with losing, especially in the way that Tarson lost. However, it does not excuse a player's actions. Here, the results were leaked in a Polish forum accessible by many people. While Tarson initially argued that he did not technically reveal results, what he said essentially gives away the final result of the series and encourages people not to watch. Later, Tarson admitted what he posted was incorrect, and issued an apology to us:
Tarson wrote: As you probably know I kinda revealed my results vs Nony on a Polish forum. I was very frustrated after my loss but I shouldn't have said that. I want to apologize everyone for my behavior.
Normally, we would simply punish the player by taking away his prize money. However, this is the first incident we've had, and taking into consideration Tarson's apology, we feel that a 50% prize reduction ($125 penalty) is more appropriate. The penalized money will be donated to a charity to be determined later. This action is not about the actual monetary amount, but more about sending a message that leaking results is a serious offense. Temporary anger or frustration after a loss does not mean a player escapes responsibility for his own choices and actions.
For those that feel the penalty is still too harsh, remember that the TSL can only exist if results are not leaked by players. The players earn their prizes not only because they win, but because they generate a quality product for our advertisers. Spoiling results to anyone is one of the most damaging things a player can do to our broadcast. It greatly harms the TSL and our ability to secure sponsorship for future tournaments. Players were informed prior to the TSL that any spoilers would result in possible forfeiture of their prize money.
It is unfortunate that we were forced to do this. Aside from this one incident, Tarson was an exemplary player and dealt with us very professionally. However, we will not hesitate to punish future leaks with a full revocation of prize money. Hopefully, now that this incident is resolved, we will not have to do this in the future.
--TSL Staff
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Lets face it, Nony told everyone he would 3-0 BEFORE the match!
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For those that feel the penalty is still too harsh, remember that the TSL can only exist if results are not leaked by players. The players earn their prizes not only because they win, but because they generate a quality product for our advertisers.
Just a reminder to read that part, hopefully flaming will be avoided >_>
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Eh this is a non-story. A tiny asterisk that will be vastly overshadowed by the huge WTF of the Ladder stage. I do like the decision though.
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On February 10 2010 15:02 Red_Storm wrote: Lets face it, Nony told everyone he would 3-0 BEFORE the match! Haha =] sometimes you just know it
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On February 10 2010 15:02 Red_Storm wrote: Lets face it, Nony told everyone he would 3-0 BEFORE the match! True that.
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Very reasonable. Maybe you guys can let Tarson choose the charity?
On February 10 2010 15:02 Red_Storm wrote: Lets face it, Nony told everyone he would 3-0 BEFORE the match!
Nicely done.
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On February 10 2010 15:02 Red_Storm wrote: Lets face it, Nony told everyone he would 3-0 BEFORE the match!
Bravo
I'm sorry to hear about this though, I'm assuming he'll be even more bummed out after finding this out :/
Tarson fighting!
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1) The player acknowledged his mistake 2) Justified by what's written in fourth paragraph
I do not have any criticisms of the decision.
Q: Once the penalized money has been donated to charity, is it likely that TL's community will be allowed to know the name of the charity?
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I dunno, seems too harsh.
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Can Tarson choose the charity? That would be nice at least.
I would be bummed if I was in his position too
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On February 10 2010 16:03 Lahv wrote: I dunno, seems too harsh. why?
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Another spot-on reasonable resolution from TSL organisers imo.
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On February 10 2010 16:16 triangle wrote:Can Tarson choose the charity? That would be nice at least. I would be bummed if I was in his position too Agreed, that way he can at least "pay" for his actions in a good way.
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to charity? screw charity, make a small tsl competition like before, guessing the bracket or best commentary etc the little money we actually have in the sc scene shouldnt just be given away o,o
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On February 10 2010 16:03 Lahv wrote: I dunno, seems too harsh. I disagree. This is a professional tournament. If you can't follow the rules and adversely affect the entertainment portion of the product then I think punishment is justified. I'm not happy about it but I fully understand the reasoning and support TL's decision.
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Very well handled I kinda /facepalmed a bit expecting worse but the resolution surprised me well done
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Well done, guys. It's a pity something like this had to happen. And in principle I like MorroW's idea of making it a community prize of some sort, though it may be a little late for that.
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On February 10 2010 16:38 MorroW wrote: to charity? screw charity, make a small tsl competition like before, guessing the bracket or best commentary etc the little money we actually have in the sc scene shouldnt just be given away o,o
Seriously?... If it's that little an amount of money, why don't you donate it and sponsor a small tournament? to someone in the world, that might be a huge load of cash (ie. supply of water for a year). Some people need money to live, not have entertainment available.
Back on topic: I agree, good decision
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TL mods don't fuck around. A good precedent has been set for any SC2 tournaments in the future.
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On February 10 2010 16:38 MorroW wrote: to charity? screw charity, make a small tsl competition like before, guessing the bracket or best commentary etc the little money we actually have in the sc scene shouldnt just be given away o,o
wha?
I'm just glad that not everyone thinks like you do.
great decision by TSL staff imo.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
YES
Bout friggin time someone started punishing for these kind of things.
"Too harsh" bullshit. This is a HUGE tourney and Tarson KNEW he wasn't supposed to do that but he let his emotions get the best of him. I'm tired of the general scbw community wanting a slap on the wrist for these kind of things.. bring the fucking hammer.
GW tl
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Underpaid people working to advance SC foreigners in Korea.
A trust fund for foreigners trying to win courage in Korea.
Carpal tunnel research.
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On February 10 2010 18:34 igotmyown wrote: Underpaid people working to advance SC foreigners in Korea.
A trust fund for foreigners trying to win courage in Korea.
Carpal tunnel research.
nice -_-
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We don't even get a U2 song?
I think the money should stay within the TSL in the form of another contest for us little guys.
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Best possible decision imo.
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Kespa would have just awarded Tarson some free wins and ruined the whole thing. Good choice.
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Nice work TL. Hope your rules/attitude catches on in SC2 tourneys.
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Great decision and explanation. GJ.
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I was kind of sad to read this, especially since $125 means a lot more to a Polish guy than a guy from USA for example. But after reading that the players were familiar with the consequences of leaking before anything happened, this is completely fine. Nicely handled by TSL staff.
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Good decision. I completly agree that it had to be penalized, just glad you decided to not remove all of his money.
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Good call as always TL.net... 125$ to haiti gogo;;
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a tournament casted in this manner, if it is spoiled, loses most of its appeal so there definitely needs to be an appropriate deterrent (punishment), so it's a good choice.
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125$ isnt an astronomical sum of money and turning this burst of bad emotions to charity is a good move.
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Totally support the decision... it probably ruined the games for quite a few Polish players and TSL needs to send that message.
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On February 10 2010 21:00 StylishVODs wrote: where are u daze
on my way ! =) cya in 5
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I always wondered how tough players are in not revealing results. Imagine 30 friends messaging you and asking simply how the games went. For example it must be really hard to stay calm when you lost against 5 pool/2 gate/BBS in last game of BO5.
I remember that the day/day before Idra vs Nony broadcast was going to happen, Idra came to TSL channel. He said the games was already played and, and seemed to be in good mood (as far as you tell from chatting). Even though he said absolutely nothing about the games itself, it was pretty obvious he won the series (I mean had he lost he probably wouldn't have come to channel and be all chatty, right).
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Really well-handled imo, gj guys.
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Lol, taking his money.... Ridiculous.
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On February 10 2010 17:52 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2010 16:38 MorroW wrote: to charity? screw charity, make a small tsl competition like before, guessing the bracket or best commentary etc the little money we actually have in the sc scene shouldnt just be given away o,o
I'm just glad that not everyone thinks like you do. what?
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A simple warning with concrete explanation of the punishment for such actions in the future for everyone would have been enough?...
Seems hard to me.
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On February 10 2010 23:40 Djzapz wrote: Lol, taking his money.... Ridiculous.
Read the post entirely.
A fair punishment, in my eyes. TL was very professional about it all.
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On February 10 2010 23:26 ondik wrote: I always wondered how tough players are in not revealing results. Imagine 30 friends messaging you and asking simply how the games went. For example it must be really hard to stay calm when you lost against 5 pool/2 gate/BBS in last game of BO5.
I remember that the day/day before Idra vs Nony broadcast was going to happen, Idra came to TSL channel. He said the games was already played and, and seemed to be in good mood (as far as you tell from chatting). Even though he said absolutely nothing about the games itself, it was pretty obvious he won the series (I mean had he lost he probably wouldn't have come to channel and be all chatty, right).
This. While I agree with the punishment, where is the line drawn?
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The line is drawn when players enter the tournament with full knowledge of the potential consequences should they breach rules. TL was well within their rights to remove the prize money completely, but the compromise was sensible. Commendable decision TL.
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On February 10 2010 23:40 Djzapz wrote: Lol, taking his money.... Ridiculous. his money?
On February 11 2010 00:18 spydR wrote: The line is drawn when players enter the tournament with full knowledge of the potential consequences should they breach rules. TL was well within their rights to remove the prize money completely, but the compromise was sensible. Commendable decision TL.
think you missed it
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Yeah he did miss it.
Normally the line for such things is crossed only when the player states it explicitly i.e. "the result of the match is 3-2".
This time the line is drawn for hinting the result in an obvious manner on a forum post i.e. "don't watch the game %&#¤%".
What if the player hints it in vent? or irc? etc....
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On February 10 2010 20:24 niteReloaded wrote: I was kind of sad to read this, especially since $125 means a lot more to a Polish guy than a guy from USA for example.
LOL? Poland isn't exactly a pigsty. -_-
Here's what a Polish person thinks:
On February 10 2010 21:22 ZlyKiss wrote: 125$ isnt an astronomical sum of money and turning this burst of bad emotions to charity is a good move.
If you can afford to pay for internet, then 125 dollars shouldn't be too big of a deal.
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On February 10 2010 23:26 ondik wrote: I always wondered how tough players are in not revealing results. Imagine 30 friends messaging you and asking simply how the games went. For example it must be really hard to stay calm when you lost against 5 pool/2 gate/BBS in last game of BO5.
I remember that the day/day before Idra vs Nony broadcast was going to happen, Idra came to TSL channel. He said the games was already played and, and seemed to be in good mood (as far as you tell from chatting). Even though he said absolutely nothing about the games itself, it was pretty obvious he won the series (I mean had he lost he probably wouldn't have come to channel and be all chatty, right). TT1 was in irc during his match against White-Ra...
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The real line should be that the players should not refer to the matches at all - so there's no ambiguity.
But then the player can still talk about their own mood, etc, and let others infer. That's why judgement is needed.
Oh, and it's not his money unless he fulfills his part of the job, which he didn't. He isn't automatically entitled to the money, it's given to him from tl when he wins and follows the rules.
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Dang, I'm actually surprised leaks aren't happening more often :X
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Well, I support the TL decision, but I find it to be picking a needle from a haystack again. Are you going to keep track of all players messenger/bnet/outside other forums activities for the duration of the tourny...=?
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On February 10 2010 23:40 Djzapz wrote: Lol, taking his money.... Ridiculous.
Players were informed prior to the TSL that any spoilers would result in possible forfeiture of their prize money. ...
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Good result. He's lucky he didn't lose it all. Spoiling is one thing, but telling people 'not to watch the games' is terrible. Really bad.
Nice lenient decision by TL
On February 11 2010 01:43 Armathai wrote: Well, I support the TL decision, but I find it to be picking a needle from a haystack again. Are you going to keep track of all players messenger/bnet/outside other forums activities for the duration of the tourny...=?
This sort of point came up with the ladder abuse scandals. Just because you potentially can't catch everyone doesn't mean you shouldn't punish people you do catch. And I'm sure they're doing everything humanly possible to enforce the rules - after all the effort they go to why wouldn't they? Secondly that's an awfully mixed metaphor.
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He disobeyed the rules. In some circumstances he wouldn't be entitled to anything because he broke his contract.
This is TL being generous.
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Seems very appropriate GJ mods!
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The mods on this site are some of the most reasonable, fair-minded, and balanced mods I have ever come across on the internet. My hats off to you sirs.
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On February 11 2010 01:43 Armathai wrote: Well, I support the TL decision, but I find it to be picking a needle from a haystack again. Are you going to keep track of all players messenger/bnet/outside other forums activities for the duration of the tourny...=? so if police catch one thief, they should not punish him because they cannot catch all other thief?
-_-
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should be banned from future tsls
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On February 11 2010 03:29 des wrote: should be banned from future tsls
lol dont be ridiculous
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Sounds good. Poor guy let his emotions get the better of him but the bottom line is in order to compete in this you have to play by the rules. I support this~
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Hmmm someone raised a good question WHAT does happen to players after they've played games and are now back to practicing. Isn't it obv that they won if they are then asking their friends to mu and bo for a certain race signalling that they might havr advanced? But then its not easy to keep track of that for sure and I guess tarson posting on a whole site deserves that punishment whereas say one guy would reveal it to 4 others so its not that bad. Damn I lost my claim......
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big difference between leaking the results on the forum and maybe telling ur friend/mom/girlfriend/boyfriend right after the game about it. I don't know how the admins feel about the practice issue, but that isn't really a big deal, at least compared to leaking results to an entire forum
the difference is how it affects viewership and perception of the tsl as a serious e-sports competition
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United States32511 Posts
On February 11 2010 02:23 baller wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 01:43 Armathai wrote: Well, I support the TL decision, but I find it to be picking a needle from a haystack again. Are you going to keep track of all players messenger/bnet/outside other forums activities for the duration of the tourny...=? so if police catch one thief, they should not punish him because they cannot catch all other thief? -_-
this sounds more wise for some reason because of the incorrect grammar
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I think the biggest issue might be that Tarson told people (on a popular forum) "don't watch the games." That is really the opposite of what you want to do for a televised match where the sponsors are looking to maximize viewership.
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In order for the TSL to grow and be better next time around (or for there to be a next time) it must maintain integrity.
I'm glad you guys were leniant and only took half of his money and I think it's a fair compromise. Plus the games were fun to watch anyways so I don't think many people avoided watching the broadcast because of what tarson said.
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You enter a tournament run by sponsorship and then post in a forum "I advise you to not watch my games." That is incredibly stupid and disrespectful to his opponent and the whole tournament.
He is VERY LUCKY to get half his money.
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The punishment fits the crime. It's a fore-warning for anyone else who might want to do this. Though, if I was him I'd probably vent to someone, but I'd hope they could keep it to themselves and wouldn't post it on a forum for everyone and their mother's to see.
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Mondi will win 3:1 next game!!1111
(ow fuck, now my money is gone!)
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Im glad there is some punishment for this, and also that the punishment isn't all of his winnings. Also, nice move donating the remainder to charity... perhaps it could go to Haiti? Theres a ton of great charities out there im sure TL will find one deserving.
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wow what is this... i cant believe what i am seeing here. i was eagerly awaiting the forthcoming matches but after this theres no way im gonna tune in, just out of disrespect for this decision. stealing 125$ of the money he won fairly with his own hands after he put so much effort into laddering and qualifying is insane.
regardless of what youd say i also doubt that youd have done the same to idra, nony or inc had they been in this situation.
For those that feel the penalty is still too harsh, remember that the TSL can only exist if results are not leaked by players. what bs. to say something like this about an event of this size and after this little words from tarson really defies reality.
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On February 11 2010 07:08 enzym wrote:wow what is this... i cant believe what i am seeing here. i was eagerly awaiting the forthcoming matches but after this theres no way im gonna tune in, just out of disrespect for this decision. stealing 125$ of the money he won fairly with his own hands after he put so much effort into laddering and qualifying is insane. regardless of what youd say i also doubt that youd have done the same to idra, nony or inc had they been in this situation. Show nested quote +For those that feel the penalty is still too harsh, remember that the TSL can only exist if results are not leaked by players. what bs. to say something like this about an event of this size and after this little words from tarson really defies reality. Sign up -> swear to obey rules -> disobey rules -> punishment -> how is it unfair? Do you know that the tournament hosts don't owe the players anything if they don't follow the rules, the contract they signed? If anything, it's a shocker he gets to keep any prize money. Too lenient imo.
EDIT and of course the rules are the same for everyone, don't know what kind of speculation that is. What evidence do you have for that claim? If anything, TL has shown that it will punish even known names like Yosh and F91 accordingly if necessary.
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On February 11 2010 07:08 enzym wrote:wow what is this... i cant believe what i am seeing here. i was eagerly awaiting the forthcoming matches but after this theres no way im gonna tune in, just out of disrespect for this decision. stealing 125$ of the money he won fairly with his own hands after he put so much effort into laddering and qualifying is insane. regardless of what youd say i also doubt that youd have done the same to idra, nony or inc had they been in this situation. Show nested quote +For those that feel the penalty is still too harsh, remember that the TSL can only exist if results are not leaked by players. what bs. to say something like this about an event of this size and after this little words from tarson really defies reality.
Are you soft in the head? Not only did he spoil his matches (Unless gratuitous rage and cursing is how they celebrate victory in Poland) he blatantly told people not to watch.
Do you understand the concept of sponsorship? Sponsors pay people to run events so that the viewership will -increase-. If the outcome of a match is known, and people are told not to watch, viewership -decreases-. Following this logic, the sponsor would not like this, and would maybe not sponsor an event in the future.
They even say in the post that they did this to make sure people understand the severity of the offense. Jesus, put something on the internet and you are guaranteed to find some idiot who wants to whine about it.
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On February 10 2010 16:38 MorroW wrote: to charity? screw charity, make a small tsl competition like before, guessing the bracket or best commentary etc the little money we actually have in the sc scene shouldnt just be given away o,o
Charity is overrated.
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Good call by TL. I agree with MorroW that the money should be used as a prize in a smaller competition like a commentary contest or smaller tourney.
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On February 11 2010 07:17 AtomicReaction wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 07:08 enzym wrote:wow what is this... i cant believe what i am seeing here. i was eagerly awaiting the forthcoming matches but after this theres no way im gonna tune in, just out of disrespect for this decision. stealing 125$ of the money he won fairly with his own hands after he put so much effort into laddering and qualifying is insane. regardless of what youd say i also doubt that youd have done the same to idra, nony or inc had they been in this situation. For those that feel the penalty is still too harsh, remember that the TSL can only exist if results are not leaked by players. what bs. to say something like this about an event of this size and after this little words from tarson really defies reality. Are you soft in the head? Not only did he spoil his matches (Unless gratuitous rage and cursing is how they celebrate victory in Poland) he blatantly told people not to watch. Do you understand the concept of sponsorship? Sponsors pay people to run events so that the viewership will -increase-. If the outcome of a match is known, and people are told not to watch, viewership -decreases-. Following this logic, the sponsor would not like this, and would maybe not sponsor an event in the future. They even say in the post that they did this to make sure people understand the severity of the offense. Jesus, put something on the internet and you are guaranteed to find some idiot who wants to whine about it. i guess TL has principles that vastly differ from mine. yes i do understand "sponsorship" and what i see here reminds me of the corporate rule that is steering america. he did not spoil the results, and telling people not to watch the matches is his personal opinion everyone should be able to have and voice according to what is known as free speech. it is an opinion, nothing else. the effect of this on the viewership, as much as it might suck for TSL, simply doesnt matter. the rules arent clear enough to require him to be punished, so it becomes a matter of interpretation and in my opinion this goes way overboard.
ill say it again; it seems that TLs principles simply differ from mine - a lot - and im not willing to support that. now you can stop caring, because the purpose of this thread after the OP is for people to voice their opinions, but beyond that mine doesnt really concern anyone. at least i dont need to discuss it any further.
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On February 11 2010 05:55 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 02:23 baller wrote:On February 11 2010 01:43 Armathai wrote: Well, I support the TL decision, but I find it to be picking a needle from a haystack again. Are you going to keep track of all players messenger/bnet/outside other forums activities for the duration of the tourny...=? so if police catch one thief, they should not punish him because they cannot catch all other thief? -_- this sounds more wise for some reason because of the incorrect grammar
LOL
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i thinks is kinnda unfair to Tarson cause i saw other TSL players spoiler his results in that way. not giving the results or something but just expresing his anger or joy so we figure out who was the winner.
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United States4991 Posts
On February 11 2010 08:12 PhOeniX[MinD] wrote: i thinks is kinnda unfair to Tarson cause i saw other TSL players spoiler his results in that way. not giving the results or something but just expresing his anger or joy so we figure out who was the winner.
If the results are spoiled in some place, then please let us know about it.
Tarson was someone who posted it in a way that we could verify, but we welcome other forms of proof of people leaking results in advance, too.
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With all the various bans and penalties they should have marketed this as TSL2: Judgement Day...
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On February 11 2010 07:38 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 07:17 AtomicReaction wrote:On February 11 2010 07:08 enzym wrote:wow what is this... i cant believe what i am seeing here. i was eagerly awaiting the forthcoming matches but after this theres no way im gonna tune in, just out of disrespect for this decision. stealing 125$ of the money he won fairly with his own hands after he put so much effort into laddering and qualifying is insane. regardless of what youd say i also doubt that youd have done the same to idra, nony or inc had they been in this situation. For those that feel the penalty is still too harsh, remember that the TSL can only exist if results are not leaked by players. what bs. to say something like this about an event of this size and after this little words from tarson really defies reality. Are you soft in the head? Not only did he spoil his matches (Unless gratuitous rage and cursing is how they celebrate victory in Poland) he blatantly told people not to watch. Do you understand the concept of sponsorship? Sponsors pay people to run events so that the viewership will -increase-. If the outcome of a match is known, and people are told not to watch, viewership -decreases-. Following this logic, the sponsor would not like this, and would maybe not sponsor an event in the future. They even say in the post that they did this to make sure people understand the severity of the offense. Jesus, put something on the internet and you are guaranteed to find some idiot who wants to whine about it. i guess TL has principles that vastly differ from mine. yes i do understand "sponsorship" and what i see here reminds me of the corporate rule that is steering america. he did not spoil the results, and telling people not to watch the matches is his personal opinion everyone should be able to have and voice according to what is known as free speech. it is an opinion, nothing else. the effect of this on the viewership, as much as it might suck for TSL, simply doesnt matter. the rules arent clear enough to require him to be punished, so it becomes a matter of interpretation and in my opinion this goes way overboard. ill say it again; it seems that TLs principles simply differ from mine - a lot - and im not willing to support that. now you can stop caring, because the purpose of this thread after the OP is for people to voice their opinions, but beyond that mine doesnt really concern anyone. at least i dont need to discuss it any further. A = ppl that dont watch bc players keep spoiling bc no punishment B = ppl like u who stop watching because of $100 penalty
A > B
so its still right choice correct?
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Norway28264 Posts
the way spoiling results is basically that if we find out, it's penalized. so if someone wants to tell someone they completely trust won't further spoil it then it's not like we CAN police this - but they better know with full certainty that whomever they tell the results absolutely will not spread it further.
telling your gf is probably safe telling your best real life friend who doesnt play starcraft is probably safe telling your best bw buddy and specifying that he absolutely cant tell anyone else is probably safe telling your friend list is most likely not safe at all posting on a forum is probably the worst way of going about it..
and well, the only way to be completely certain, as one generally cannot trust people 100%, is to just not tell anyone at all. keeping a secret for a couple days with between hundreds and thousands of dollars on the line really should be managable..
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Braavos36362 Posts
To be absolutely safe, I wouldn't tell anyone that could potentially watch or talk to anyone that could watch TSL. Mood status, chatting in channels, all that stuff is ambiguous, and to be on the truly safe side, a player should just avoid doing anything like that until after the broadcast. Better safe than sorry when it comes to money like this.
To the guy arguing that this rule is unclear, Tarson even admitted himself that he spoiled the results. Its obvious that saying "wow i played like shit i cant believe what happened, don't watch my games" is 100% a spoiler. Just because he didn't specifically say "I lost" doesn't mean its outside the scope of the rule. This is just common sense.
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I think it was the right choice. It's sort of like watching shows like "The next food network star" or the "Next Iron Chef". The show was recorded like a week ahead, but the contestants should not reveal the results until after the show because well... that kind of ruins everything :/.
However I am glad he apologized so I think the punishment fits
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The "" that cost 125 dollars
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On February 11 2010 08:50 Hot_Bid wrote: Just because he didn't specifically say "I lost" doesn't mean its outside the scope of the rule. This is just common sense. its not outside the scope of the rule, but the rule also doesnt absolutely require the punishment. the situation, according to the rules, is not clear. that is a fact that cannot be argued about. there is as much room for you to justify the outcome as there is for me to not respect you for it.
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United States4991 Posts
On February 11 2010 09:26 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 08:50 Hot_Bid wrote: Just because he didn't specifically say "I lost" doesn't mean its outside the scope of the rule. This is just common sense. its not outside the scope of the rule, but the rule also doesnt absolutely require the punishment. the situation, according to the rules, is not clear. that is a fact that cannot be argued about. there is as much room for you to justify the outcome as there is for me to not respect you for it. The rules we sent him (and other players) via e-mail were crystal clear on this.
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Braavos36362 Posts
On February 11 2010 09:26 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 08:50 Hot_Bid wrote: Just because he didn't specifically say "I lost" doesn't mean its outside the scope of the rule. This is just common sense. its not outside the scope of the rule, but the rule also doesnt absolutely require the punishment. the situation, according to the rules, is not clear. that is a fact that cannot be argued about. there is as much room for you to justify the outcome as there is for me to not respect you for it. I don't know how you can say something is "a fact that cannot be argued about" when 90% of everyone else believes the exact opposite of what you think.
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On February 11 2010 08:30 Trap wrote: With all the various bans and penalties they should have marketed this as TSL2: Judgement Day...
I think "TSL2 - Test of Skill and Character" is more accurate.
I feel sorry for Tarson. It's easy to understand how he'd feel. He's an excellent player, wasn't able to give his best performance, and lost his chance at 10k. However, you should be able to handle your grief with money on the line and clear rules.
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Is for charity so 100% agreed
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sucks for Tarson, sucks for TSL to have to make a decision like this, sucks for the misunderstandings involved with translator who first brought this to non polish attention. sucks in pretty much every way shape and form.
It's a lose-lose all around imo. I really hope there are no more penalties from the TSL and everything runs smoothly from here out. I really love this tournament.
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+ other players no TSL gamers, that find out or know the results and they post them o forums? what kind of penalization they will have? cause this happend on terran vs infernal when the 3 game was begining.
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On February 11 2010 09:44 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 09:26 enzym wrote:On February 11 2010 08:50 Hot_Bid wrote: Just because he didn't specifically say "I lost" doesn't mean its outside the scope of the rule. This is just common sense. its not outside the scope of the rule, but the rule also doesnt absolutely require the punishment. the situation, according to the rules, is not clear. that is a fact that cannot be argued about. there is as much room for you to justify the outcome as there is for me to not respect you for it. I don't know how you can say something is "a fact that cannot be argued about" when 90% of everyone else believes the exact opposite of what you think. facts arent decided by majority vote. for you as one of the admins to voice a view such as this is just more reason for me to stay away from this place. fact: tarson didnt directly spoil the results. the people who believe he did chose to do so (interpretation). unless the rules stated that all actions of a player must not be interpretable in such a way, by noone, the situation was vague enough. and if they stated that then anyone can come along and claim to have been spoiled as he sees fit, which does noone justice.
i certainly hope that you are just trying to troll and dont honestly believe what you said.
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Braavos36362 Posts
On February 11 2010 12:30 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 09:44 Hot_Bid wrote:On February 11 2010 09:26 enzym wrote:On February 11 2010 08:50 Hot_Bid wrote: Just because he didn't specifically say "I lost" doesn't mean its outside the scope of the rule. This is just common sense. its not outside the scope of the rule, but the rule also doesnt absolutely require the punishment. the situation, according to the rules, is not clear. that is a fact that cannot be argued about. there is as much room for you to justify the outcome as there is for me to not respect you for it. I don't know how you can say something is "a fact that cannot be argued about" when 90% of everyone else believes the exact opposite of what you think. facts arent decided by majority vote. for you as one of the admins to voice a view such as this is just more reason for me to stay away from this place. fact: tarson didnt directly spoil the results. the people who believe he did chose to do so (interpretation). Our rule didn't say only "directly spoiling" would be punished. Also, every single rule has to be interpreted. There will always be situations where administrators have to make judgments. Here, it's not even a close situation -- its absolutely clear that he violated the rules, so much so that even Tarson himself eventually admitted this.
unless the rules stated that all actions of a player must not be interpretable in such a way, by noone, the situation was vague enough. and if they stated that then anyone can come along and claim to have been spoiled as he sees fit, which does noone justice. I don't understand. Are you arguing that someone who describes the exact happenings in a game, like "he eliminated all my buildings" but does not say "I lost" makes the situation vague? Because its accepted by everyone that a player can spoil a result without outright stating the exact score. I can think of a million situations where someone spoils the results but does not outright state it:
1. Describe exactly what happened in the game 2. Say how many times you GG'd first 3. Stream the entire game on livestream except for the very end 4. Post about how you are wondering what strategy Nony will use next round 5. Congratulate Nony for playing better than you
etc etc.
All these would be "vague" under your ridiculous standard of interpreting our rule. Its absurdly clear that someone posting "i played like shit, damnit don't watch the games" is spoiling. There's no question there -- it's accepted by everyone but you.
i certainly hope that you are just trying to troll and dont honestly believe what you said. It's obvious all our staff are being 100% serious in this thread. You also made a baseless accusation about us "stealing" Tarson's money -- it's not his money until he lives up to the deal of not spoiling, not leaking replays, etc. Punishing a player for a rule violation is not stealing, and as we said, we're not keeping it (donating to charity). You also made another accusation that we would not have imposed the same punishment if Tarson was an American player. This is simply not true, we treat all players equally.
Don't post like this anymore. Consider this a warning.
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Braavos36362 Posts
On February 11 2010 12:15 PhOeniX[MinD] wrote: + other players no TSL gamers, that find out or know the results and they post them o forums? what kind of penalization they will have? cause this happend on terran vs infernal when the 3 game was begining. Please describe what happened exactly.
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well someone posted on forum (while 4th game was begining) that infernal was beaten by terran. i wll look for the exact page i guees it must be there
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Dominican Republic825 Posts
On February 11 2010 00:46 HazMat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2010 23:26 ondik wrote: I always wondered how tough players are in not revealing results. Imagine 30 friends messaging you and asking simply how the games went. For example it must be really hard to stay calm when you lost against 5 pool/2 gate/BBS in last game of BO5.
I remember that the day/day before Idra vs Nony broadcast was going to happen, Idra came to TSL channel. He said the games was already played and, and seemed to be in good mood (as far as you tell from chatting). Even though he said absolutely nothing about the games itself, it was pretty obvious he won the series (I mean had he lost he probably wouldn't have come to channel and be all chatty, right). TT1 was in irc during his match against White-Ra...
true
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On February 11 2010 13:25 Hot_Bid wrote: Its absurdly clear that someone posting "i played like shit, damnit don't watch the games" is spoiling. thats where we disagree. you can be unhappy with the result despite winning. you can also have intentions completely unrelated to the match.
you can interprete his statements in a way that lets you think that he gave the results away, but you dont have to. i dont know why have to repeat that over and over.
yes your actions are within the rules, you are the hosts of the event afterall. but the rules dont clearly require him to be punished for the statements he made, because these statements did not necessarily give away the results.
i thought i articulated that cleary with each post i made, but apparently i didnt. i hope it is understood now, because im running out of ways to put it.
User was warned for this post.
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Braavos36362 Posts
On February 11 2010 14:22 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 13:25 Hot_Bid wrote: Its absurdly clear that someone posting "i played like shit, damnit don't watch the games" is spoiling. thats where we disagree. you can be unhappy with the result despite winning. you can also have intentions completely unrelated to the match. you can interprete his statements in a way that lets you think that he gave the results away, but you dont have to. i dont know why have to repeat that over and over. yes your actions are within the rules, you are the hosts of the event afterall. but the rules dont clearly require him to be punished for the statements he made, because these statements did not necessarily give away the results. i thought i articulated that cleary with each post i made, but apparently i didnt. i hope it is understood now, because im running out of ways to put it. As I said, the statements don't have to definitively give away the entire score for it to be spoiling. Simply saying "Nony went DT drop against me" and "Nony broke my wall on outsider" without saying the outcome of the match is still spoiling.
I don't know why I have to repeat that over and over... i'm running out of ways to put it These statements were made in a tone that is both condescending and disrespectful. They imply that you are lecturing from some higher position and we are the idiots who need you to explain how things work. Rather, you are the minority opinion among many who agree with how we handled the situation.
You are certainly allowed to disagree, but continue posting in this manner and you will be banned.
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On February 11 2010 14:22 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 13:25 Hot_Bid wrote: Its absurdly clear that someone posting "i played like shit, damnit don't watch the games" is spoiling. thats where we disagree. you can be unhappy with the result despite winning.
"I'm just saying do not watch those fucking games, fucked up... [more expletives, grief, regret] ... fucking starcraft. I can't believe myself what has happened"
You're telling me you can't tell from the tone that he lost? This isn't subtle at all.
Edit: Added in quote because HB got in before me.
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Braavos36362 Posts
I can understand someone arguing that the punishment is too harsh, but I really cannot fathom how someone can argue that Tarson didn't actually spoil the games.
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Penalizing him by cutting his prize in half seems harsh, but I can't think of any other ways to do it.
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if he was forewarned of consequences and this rule was known to everyone that full prize money would be lost, then i think tl is being generous with tarson by allowing him 50%.
tl decision approved +10
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On February 11 2010 14:40 Durak wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 14:22 enzym wrote:On February 11 2010 13:25 Hot_Bid wrote: Its absurdly clear that someone posting "i played like shit, damnit don't watch the games" is spoiling. thats where we disagree. you can be unhappy with the result despite winning. You're telling me you can't tell from the tone that he lost? yes. you cant tell from those statements any result of the matches other than that tarson was not happy with it, and that therefor the decision made by the staff was not necessary according to the rules. it was within the rules, as they are the host of the event, but not necessary. that is what i have been trying to say from the beginning, but it seems like i somehow didnt manage to get that across very well.
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On February 11 2010 15:00 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 14:40 Durak wrote:On February 11 2010 14:22 enzym wrote:On February 11 2010 13:25 Hot_Bid wrote: Its absurdly clear that someone posting "i played like shit, damnit don't watch the games" is spoiling. thats where we disagree. you can be unhappy with the result despite winning. You're telling me you can't tell from the tone that he lost? yes. you cant tell from those statements any result of the matches other than that tarson was not happy with it, and that therefor the decision made by the staff was not necessary according to the rules. it was within the rules, as they are the host of the event, but not necessary. that is what i have been trying to say from the beginning, but it seems like i somehow didnt manage to get that across very well.
Look dude. You've got your point across fine. Of course they don't have to punish anyone. Enforcement of the rules is always at the admins discretion. But it is so abundantly clear that he spoiled the games. He agrees he did and so does everyone else. It's fine you don't think so but I'd say 50% of people posting think it's a fitting punishment and 49% think it's lenient. And then there's you. So stop telling Hot_Bid he's wrong. Jesus, it's a free to watch tournament put on by people volunteering their time. It's surreal listening to you and others (like the observer complaint thread) swiping at the admins/staff.
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On February 11 2010 15:06 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 15:00 enzym wrote:On February 11 2010 14:40 Durak wrote:On February 11 2010 14:22 enzym wrote:On February 11 2010 13:25 Hot_Bid wrote: Its absurdly clear that someone posting "i played like shit, damnit don't watch the games" is spoiling. thats where we disagree. you can be unhappy with the result despite winning. You're telling me you can't tell from the tone that he lost? yes. you cant tell from those statements any result of the matches other than that tarson was not happy with it, and that therefor the decision made by the staff was not necessary according to the rules. it was within the rules, as they are the host of the event, but not necessary. that is what i have been trying to say from the beginning, but it seems like i somehow didnt manage to get that across very well. Look dude. You've got your point across fine. Of course they don't have to punish anyone. Enforcement of the rules is always at the admins discretion. But it is so abundantly clear that he spoiled the games. He agrees he did and so does everyone else. It's fine you don't think so but I'd say 50% of people posting think it's a fitting punishment and 49% think it's lenient. And then there's you. So stop telling Hot_Bid he's wrong. Jesus, it's a free to watch tournament put on by people volunteering their time. It's surreal listening to you and others (like the observer complaint thread) swiping at the admins/staff. wtf.. of course they can do what they want and im not complaining, just pointing out that it was not inevitable and that i dont support this decision and therefor wont watch forthcoming matches despite having anticipated them a lot. i dont know why people make such a big deal out of it myself when you say that im like 1% of the viewership. so why bother? so it must be about the argument, which i have been trying to resolve. of course people can be spoiled by it, but i say that this is the fault of those people and not tarsons, because his statements leave enough room for other explanations depending on his personality and motivations. i know id still want to see for myself why he was so upset while expecting a loss in the back of my head, but also knowing that that statement didnt rule out a win. it would just be my interpretation. if at all it would make me more curious. im just arguing because people attack the integrity of my point. i said in my second post that there is nothing for me to argue about and i certainly wouldnt start a thread to complain about stuff. the thread was already here and i only intended to voice my disagreement with the decision and thats the end of it.
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On February 11 2010 15:12 enzym wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On February 11 2010 15:06 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 15:00 enzym wrote:On February 11 2010 14:40 Durak wrote:On February 11 2010 14:22 enzym wrote:On February 11 2010 13:25 Hot_Bid wrote: Its absurdly clear that someone posting "i played like shit, damnit don't watch the games" is spoiling. thats where we disagree. you can be unhappy with the result despite winning. You're telling me you can't tell from the tone that he lost? yes. you cant tell from those statements any result of the matches other than that tarson was not happy with it, and that therefor the decision made by the staff was not necessary according to the rules. it was within the rules, as they are the host of the event, but not necessary. that is what i have been trying to say from the beginning, but it seems like i somehow didnt manage to get that across very well. Look dude. You've got your point across fine. Of course they don't have to punish anyone. Enforcement of the rules is always at the admins discretion. But it is so abundantly clear that he spoiled the games. He agrees he did and so does everyone else. It's fine you don't think so but I'd say 50% of people posting think it's a fitting punishment and 49% think it's lenient. And then there's you. So stop telling Hot_Bid he's wrong. Jesus, it's a free to watch tournament put on by people volunteering their time. It's surreal listening to you and others (like the observer complaint thread) swiping at the admins/staff. wtf.. of course they can do what they want and im not complaining, just pointing out that it was not inevitable and that i dont support this decision and therefor wont watch forthcoming matches despite having anticipated them a lot. i dont know why people make such a big deal out of it myself when you say that im like 1% of the viewership. so why bother? so it must be about the argument, which i have been trying to resolve. of course people can be spoiled by it, but i say that this is the fault of those people and not tarsons, because his statements leave enough room for other explanations depending on his personality and motivations. i know id still want to see for myself why he was so upset while expecting a loss in the back of my head, but also knowing that that statement didnt rule out a win. it would just be my interpretation. if at all it would make me more curious. im just arguing because people attack the integrity of my point. i said in my second post that there is nothing for me to argue about and i certainly wouldnt start a thread to complain about stuff. the thread was already here and i only intended to voice my disagreement with the decision and thats the end of it.
Yeah you're definitely not complaining or arguing. Just keep bitching about it and get yourself temp banned. That's obviously what you're after.
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On February 11 2010 15:00 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 14:40 Durak wrote:On February 11 2010 14:22 enzym wrote:On February 11 2010 13:25 Hot_Bid wrote: Its absurdly clear that someone posting "i played like shit, damnit don't watch the games" is spoiling. thats where we disagree. you can be unhappy with the result despite winning. You're telling me you can't tell from the tone that he lost? yes. you cant tell from those statements any result of the matches other than that tarson was not happy with it I disagree. Let's do an analysis, shall we?
"I'm just saying do not watch those fucking games." This statement implies that they are bad games. One would only say to not watch games if they were bad. The swearing adds emphasis.
"fucking games, fucked up... [more expletives, grief, regret] ... fucking starcraft." Rampant swearing. This is characteristic of someone who is more than "not happy." He's fucking furious.
"I can't believe myself what has happened." What could be unexpected? We can infer that the bad games were unexpected. Who expects bad games in the Ro8 in a 10k tourny? Why were the games bad? Because either Tarson or his opponent played poorly.
1. One of the players played poorly resulting in "bad games." 2. One of the players is furious enough to rampantly swear on a forum. 3*. One of the players is posting it, in heat of passion, before the games are even casted
I wonder which one lost.+ Show Spoiler +
Edit: I'm even going to try and clarify it some more. 3* is the context. Tarson posted this before the games were aired.
What would Taron's purpose be of posting this if he had won? To tell people that the games were so poorly played by his opponent that they aren't worth watching? Almost no winner would ever say that because everyone loves being appreciated and few people are that dick-like to their opponents. In addition, why would he be swearing so often if he had won? You can also infer all of this even easier if he know his character (as everyone on his forum would).
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Charity? NAH. Hold a mini-tourny. All the cheaters and abusers fight it out for a 125 dollar prize pool
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enzym you are posting stuff that just makes no sense..
+ stating u wont watch further tsl games because of this decision is
a) letting u look like a total idiot ( no offense ! ) or b) being tarson who is mad
with a) being the more likely option
I think the decision is fine. Actually it depends on HOW strictly and clearly the players were informed about how important it is not to spoil anything.
I mean if Im a tsl participant and I know that spoiling things is putting me at a big risk of losing my earned money the first thing I will do after playing my games is to log out of battle net and not do anything sc/bw related until the games have been broadcasted.
But I want to emphazie in order to do that I have to KNOW how important this '' not even a slight spoiler '' issue is !
Thus i really hope the admins / people in charge of tsl will again warn the participants and remind them of the fact that keeping the scores for themselves is really really important..
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On February 11 2010 15:12 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 15:06 Subversive wrote:On February 11 2010 15:00 enzym wrote:On February 11 2010 14:40 Durak wrote:On February 11 2010 14:22 enzym wrote:On February 11 2010 13:25 Hot_Bid wrote: Its absurdly clear that someone posting "i played like shit, damnit don't watch the games" is spoiling. thats where we disagree. you can be unhappy with the result despite winning. You're telling me you can't tell from the tone that he lost? yes. you cant tell from those statements any result of the matches other than that tarson was not happy with it, and that therefor the decision made by the staff was not necessary according to the rules. it was within the rules, as they are the host of the event, but not necessary. that is what i have been trying to say from the beginning, but it seems like i somehow didnt manage to get that across very well. Look dude. You've got your point across fine. Of course they don't have to punish anyone. Enforcement of the rules is always at the admins discretion. But it is so abundantly clear that he spoiled the games. He agrees he did and so does everyone else. It's fine you don't think so but I'd say 50% of people posting think it's a fitting punishment and 49% think it's lenient. And then there's you. So stop telling Hot_Bid he's wrong. Jesus, it's a free to watch tournament put on by people volunteering their time. It's surreal listening to you and others (like the observer complaint thread) swiping at the admins/staff. wtf.. of course they can do what they want and im not complaining, just pointing out that it was not inevitable and that i dont support this decision and therefor wont watch forthcoming matches despite having anticipated them a lot. i dont know why people make such a big deal out of it myself when you say that im like 1% of the viewership. so why bother? so it must be about the argument, which i have been trying to resolve. of course people can be spoiled by it, but i say that this is the fault of those people and not tarsons, because his statements leave enough room for other explanations depending on his personality and motivations. i know id still want to see for myself why he was so upset while expecting a loss in the back of my head, but also knowing that that statement didnt rule out a win. it would just be my interpretation. if at all it would make me more curious. im just arguing because people attack the integrity of my point. i said in my second post that there is nothing for me to argue about and i certainly wouldnt start a thread to complain about stuff. the thread was already here and i only intended to voice my disagreement with the decision and thats the end of it. What do you think rules are for? So that people can just break them whenever they feel like it?
He's lucky TL are so lenient. This could easily be a ban from future tournaments too. Why would you want someone in a tournament who doesn't seem to respect the opportunity he's been given? Playing in the TSL is a massive privilege. Many have given up lots of their free time to do this and it deserves respect.
Abiding by the rules IS PART of the tournament. It's not just about playing SC you also have to follow some VERY SIMPLE rules. When you show blatant disrespect for your opponent, the tournament and everyone who is excited about the games; you're giving two fingers to the opportunity you were lucky to have in the first place.
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Good job TL. It is not nice reading about penalties, but the sour part of this message is that Tarson spoiled. A penalty is a logical and necessary consequence.
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Hmmm, couldn't some suitably devious and malicious individual find 3 relatively obscure Starcraft-related forums, then create an account, with the name of, say, 'Idra', and making one post of the form 'Idra vs Nony TSL result: 3-0! You heard it here first!', for each score, then leak the one with the correct score to TSL admin, after the match, deleting the 'wrong' ones as soon as possible?
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United States4991 Posts
On February 11 2010 18:20 Aim Here wrote: Hmmm, couldn't some suitably devious and malicious individual find 3 relatively obscure Starcraft-related forums, then create an account, with the name of, say, 'Idra', and making one post of the form 'Idra vs Nony TSL result: 3-0! You heard it here first!', for each score, then leak the one with the correct score to TSL admin, after the match, deleting the 'wrong' ones as soon as possible?
We don't just lurch off half-cocked on any rumor about players spoiling results without first checking the veracity of the claim.
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Ideas like those are better being unspoken.. they might feed some trolls
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Nicely done by you guys. I think though (sorry tarson) that all the money should be donated to charity!
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Norway28264 Posts
On February 11 2010 15:12 enzym wrote: so it must be about the argument, which i have been trying to resolve. of course people can be spoiled by it, but i say that this is the fault of those people and not tarsons, because his statements leave enough room for other explanations depending on his personality and motivations. i know id still want to see for myself why he was so upset while expecting a loss in the back of my head, but also knowing that that statement didnt rule out a win. it would just be my interpretation. if at all it would make me more curious.
I am terribly sorry but this is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard in my life.
you are actually saying that someone writing "I played like fucking shit, don't watch the games, fucking fuck fuck starcraft god damnit" makes you MORE curious as to what the result was or what the games were like? there is absolutely NO room for interpretation as to who ended up winning here.. the only factor of excitement left after reading this is "in what way did tarson fuck up, did he fuck up once or twice or three times and did he lose 0-3 1-3 or 2-3". NOBODY would EVER write his post after winning the series.
at first in this thread you were upset because you claimed we were stealing his money. this is pretty dumb - we are not stealing it but donating it to charity, and it is not "his" money because he broke a very clearly formulated rule. (all players have been informed several times that any sort of spoiling of results may result in any punishment we see fit - reduction or complete removal of prize money one of these. this is something ALL players have been told. ) if you have some sort of construction job and you first spend your day building whatever for then at the end of the day to destroy whatever you built, you will not be deserving of money and you will be lucky to get half of it. Don't get me wrong - stating that the punishment is harsh and not necessary - that the message would have gotten across without monetary punishment of the first offense, or any variant of these, is fair enough. but the way you hyperbole makes you seem like a complete lunatic.
stating that it wouldnt have happened if it was idra or nony or some other big player, also ridiculous. we have already banned f91, yosh, dimaga, a2 and several other players - these are all VERY big names on the scene.
it's like, you start out writing something ridiculous, when this gets refuted you alter your position into something even more ridiculous.. at first we were stealing his money, now he didn't spoil the result and was actually increasing viewership because one player stating that people shouldn't bother watching makes it more excitable?? jesus christ man, go for a walk, reread your posts, ask someone proficient in english and german to translate your posts to german, take a break or whatever. you are so far out of your element here because I can't remember being as frustrated due to lack of sense made since iszard was part of the community.
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How can his arguments make sense, when he is trying to defend someone who is clearly at fault. Enzym, it's time to shut up, yeah - really.
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I think it's pointless to try to explain things to some of these people- they're either really dumb, or just trolls.
Taking half his prize money seems to be the perfect solution; it sends a message that this kind of thing can't be tolerated, while at the same time, Tarson still gets compensated for all he's done for this tournament. Donating the money to charity is a great way to use that money.
Kudos TL
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I have only one complain, I dont think the money shouldnt be donated to charity.
Teamliquid needs that money to be the most amazing BW portal ever, and the only charity I want to see being done with that money is if it goes into TL team's pocket.
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Braavos36362 Posts
On February 12 2010 02:57 D10 wrote: I have only one complain, I dont think the money shouldnt be donated to charity.
Teamliquid needs that money to be the most amazing BW portal ever, and the only charity I want to see being done with that money is if it goes into TL team's pocket. Thanks for your compliment, but we decided to donate the $125 to charity because we want to show that we are unbiased in this punishment decision. If TL kept the money, someone could argue that we wanted to punish Tarson so that we could keep his prize, but that's simply not the case. There were times before when tournaments didn't fully pay out their prizes due to shady or corrupt administrative decisions, and we don't want to be grouped with those. Thus, the charity donation leaves no doubt that we are 100% penalizing him to protect the TSL broadcast in the future, not to pad our own pockets. Of course, we will post proof that we actually donated the money once we decide on a charity.
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The players earn their prizes not only because they win, but because they generate a quality product for our advertisers. Quality product are the key words here - Tarson knew his fuck up wasn't ordinary and that he wasn't going to get any ordinary comments about it. You are treating it as if this happened here or on gosugamers but it didn't - this is what I tried to convey in my blog yesterday and I am doing now.
On February 11 2010 08:21 Insane wrote:Show nested quote +On February 11 2010 08:12 PhOeniX[MinD] wrote: i thinks is kinnda unfair to Tarson cause i saw other TSL players spoiler his results in that way. not giving the results or something but just expresing his anger or joy so we figure out who was the winner.
we welcome other forms of proof of people leaking results in advance, too. Using my example I can assure you nobody will ever try to prove any kind of leaks again. I'm not "basically feeling bad" about this as Kennigit summarized 3 pages of my blog. My identity as a person who translated it was revealed almost instantly and now the only demographic affected by what Tarson wrote is hardcore bashing me - you would assume the same people he supposedly spoiled would agree with you! For me this is not just about spoiling who won - the only thing spoiled; exact result of that match wasn't spoiled. I am less bothered about your decision to penalize Tarson than I am bothered and upset about lynch targetted at me that is going on right now.
I hope you are going to ACTIVELY SEARCH for any leaks in the future instead of relying on kind denunciations. You are treating this seriously after all. I don't know what is the purpose of live report threads if something posted after cast as a comment and kind of as an apology for bad performance is being treated as a spoiler affecting majority of the spectators before cast. What Tarson did was a minor offence.
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On February 10 2010 16:38 MorroW wrote: to charity? screw charity, make a small tsl competition like before, guessing the bracket or best commentary etc the little money we actually have in the sc scene shouldnt just be given away o,o
WTF?
The money was well deserve to Tarson but he make a mistake... So why the fuck TSL should give "Tarson money" to the others players of TSL? Send to charity and help somebody that is not a nerd or even know that word...
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Seems like there is this weird idea that the TSL is "just for fun", like it's a shits and giggles tournament and it's totally casual. That's an insult to the TSL.
The TSL is a serious competition for foreign StarCraft players with high stakes and I'll be damned if the admins pussy their way around the rules for "fun". Same with people bitching about cheaters being disqualified. This isn't a LAN at your friends house. This is the goddamned TeamLiquid StarLeague. STARLEAGUE.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Beetalisk, i would just let it go...
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I'm not questioning your need to react once you know about something potentially damaging your work and everything you want to achieve by it.
fuck... I am seriously going to pay for this no matter what. Not necessarily to Tarson, he didn't send me any message today yet.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Why don't you just relax? It. Had. Nothing. To. Do. With. You. Telling. Us. We. Saw. It. And. Had. Multiple. Sources. Confirm.
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A bit lenient but definitely a fair decision. I'm surprised the TSL admins are getting so much grief over this, particularly since Tarson himself knew the potential consequences and still agreed he leaked.
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Kennigit, he might believe that, but apparently the entire Polish starcraft community is bashing him or something?
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
beetlelisk don't listen to kennigit. Self immolation is the only form of repentance acceptable once an atrocity of this level has been committed.
If you don't do it what example are you setting for future polish bloggers?
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Społeczności polskiej Yo. Mam moli całej swojej społeczności - uspokaja proszę frajerów.
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On February 12 2010 06:32 beetlelisk wrote: I'm not questioning your need to react once you know about something potentially damaging your work and everything you want to achieve by it.
fuck... I am seriously going to pay for this no matter what. Not necessarily to Tarson, he didn't send me any message today yet.
Goddamn. That's harsh man. I guess it really sucks that you couldn't just make a new account or deal with the fact that your polish countrymen are acting like 10 year olds.
Wait a minute, you could do both of those things!
Besides no one on TL cares what you did, and TL is way cooler than any polish 4chan knockoff.
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Not only 50% but the whole prize should be donated to a charity.
Nevertheless, Well done teamliquid
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I think teamliquid deserves the money since its a pretty god damn site for everyone of us, why not take the money to get this site even better? Well giving it to charity is never bad, but i would like it to go to the teamliquid site.
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TL wants to show that there is absolutely zero possible way they are trying to be "dirty" with the money. By giving the money to charity, they can show that their decision to take away his prize money was based solely on his behavior and not TL wanting to take it for themselves.
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On February 12 2010 09:47 NiGoL wrote: I think teamliquid deserves the money since its a pretty god damn site for everyone of us, why not take the money to get this site even better? Well giving it to charity is never bad, but i would like it to go to the teamliquid site.
They already said why. They don't want even the slightest hint of Tournament Organizer corruption scandals getting tossed around. If they took the money and used it, people could argue they only did that penalty to turn a buck. If they give it to charity, then no one can argue they did it for their own benefit.
Although... Tax deductions? Oh no!
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On February 10 2010 15:02 Red_Storm wrote: Lets face it, Nony told everyone he would 3-0 BEFORE the match! He has a point. Everyone knew it was coming =/
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Very nice of TL to still let him keep 1/2 the prize money. I feel bad for Tarson, always frustrating losing like that. (like just letting his wall get broken on outsider.)
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On February 10 2010 23:53 rushz0rz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2010 23:40 Djzapz wrote: Lol, taking his money.... Ridiculous. Read the post entirely. A fair punishment, in my eyes. TL was very professional about it all. I read it.
People who get good at other games can earn hundreds of thousands of dollars in tournaments. When I was 14 year old and I made a couple thousands dollars playing counter strike in a team which was half decent.
People who get good at SC can't make much on the foreigner scene. Many people in the TSL are exceptional players who may never earn a single dollar from their Starcraft skills ever again. Bad dice. Should have played a simpleton's game!
To further lower the amount of money handed out to our fellow SC players is just ridiculous. It's just $125, I don't care much for the money - and I don't care much about spoilers on a polish website. I understand the punishment but I don't support it in any way whatsoever - not that my opinion matters.
It just makes me sad that - you know - that's all... Guess a 11 year old game is bound to have a fairly small influence and all.
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On February 12 2010 10:34 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2010 23:53 rushz0rz wrote:On February 10 2010 23:40 Djzapz wrote: Lol, taking his money.... Ridiculous. Read the post entirely. A fair punishment, in my eyes. TL was very professional about it all. I read it. People who get good at other games can earn hundreds of thousands of dollars in tournaments. When I was 14 year old and I made a couple thousands dollars playing counter strike in a team which was half decent. People who get good at SC can't make much on the foreigner scene. Many people in the TSL are exceptional players who may never earn a single dollar from their Starcraft skills ever again. Bad dice. Should have played a simpleton's game! To further lower the amount of money handed out to our fellow SC players is just ridiculous. It's just $125, I don't care much for the money - and I don't care much about spoilers on a polish website. I understand the punishment but I don't support it in any way whatsoever - not that my opinion matters. It just makes me sad that - you know - that's all... Guess a 11 year old game is bound to have a fairly small influence and all.
You make a good point about people not making as much money in this scene, but that's why I think this a -good- decision. TL is trying to make the scene more respectable by treating it as a professionally run tourney. They are taking decisions like this seriously, and have shown multiple times throughout that it isn't just some LAN party.
This decision is good in that they have come up front with it, and came up with a punishment that is suitable. If they just brush this kind of stuff off, no one would ever take it as a serious event.
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That's a fair way to see it... but still :o
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I think that it is fair.
It's not about the money, it's about the act, and I think the fact that Tarson acknowledged his mistake and is owning up to it is quite admirable.
$125 dollars is not that much in the grand scheme of things, and I think he should be greatful that he isn't going to be banned from sites/future events, especially with SC2 right around the corner, which i am sure he will try to make money in.
Good job TL and good job Tarson for being a man about the whole situation.
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United States13896 Posts
On February 12 2010 10:34 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 10 2010 23:53 rushz0rz wrote:On February 10 2010 23:40 Djzapz wrote: Lol, taking his money.... Ridiculous. Read the post entirely. A fair punishment, in my eyes. TL was very professional about it all. I read it. People who get good at other games can earn hundreds of thousands of dollars in tournaments. When I was 14 year old and I made a couple thousands dollars playing counter strike in a team which was half decent. People who get good at SC can't make much on the foreigner scene. Many people in the TSL are exceptional players who may never earn a single dollar from their Starcraft skills ever again. Bad dice. Should have played a simpleton's game! To further lower the amount of money handed out to our fellow SC players is just ridiculous. It's just $125, I don't care much for the money - and I don't care much about spoilers on a polish website. I understand the punishment but I don't support it in any way whatsoever - not that my opinion matters. It just makes me sad that - you know - that's all... Guess a 11 year old game is bound to have a fairly small influence and all. If you want to look at it that way then just consider future sponsors and future opportunities. If proper action like this isn't taken then TSL's reputation as a well run event could be damaged, hurting the chances that there may be more of them in the future and more money flowing into the scene as a whole.
Tarson has to have some sort of penalty now if we want to maintain our integrity and give him and other players an opportunity to win more money in future tournaments. In the short term yeah your argument may hold, but in the long term its just faulty logic.
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I'm merely saying that removing money from SC player's hands after they won it is wrong unless they cheated.
Sure there should be a penalty - maybe just a warning since, in my eyes, this is a minor (MINOR) offense - and a first one.
In my eyes, Tarson's punishment (or warning) shouldn't have anything to do with the tiny little bit of money he managed to get after he pulled through hundreds of hours of practice and stressful games. $125.... I think TL's as lucky to have Tarson as Tarson's lucky to have TL.
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On February 12 2010 11:43 Djzapz wrote: In my eyes, Tarson's punishment (or warning) shouldn't have anything to do with the tiny little bit of money he managed to get after he pulled through hundreds of hours of practice and stressful games. $125.... I think TL's as lucky to have Tarson as Tarson's lucky to have TL.
How would you punish Tarson?
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On February 12 2010 11:43 Djzapz wrote: I'm merely saying that removing money from SC player's hands after they won it is wrong unless they cheated.
Sure there should be a penalty - maybe just a warning since, in my eyes, this is a minor (MINOR) offense - and a first one.
In my eyes, Tarson's punishment (or warning) shouldn't have anything to do with the tiny little bit of money he managed to get after he pulled through hundreds of hours of practice and stressful games. $125.... I think TL's as lucky to have Tarson as Tarson's lucky to have TL.
well they do warn us beforehand about the rules so..
if they didnt tell the players anything and then punished them then there could have been an argument made but everyone knew the rules
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On February 12 2010 09:52 PiePie wrote: TL wants to show that there is absolutely zero possible way they are trying to be "dirty" with the money. By giving the money to charity, they can show that their decision to take away his prize money was based solely on his behavior and not TL wanting to take it for themselves.
This. Excellent decision.
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On February 12 2010 12:19 Gnabgib wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 11:43 Djzapz wrote: In my eyes, Tarson's punishment (or warning) shouldn't have anything to do with the tiny little bit of money he managed to get after he pulled through hundreds of hours of practice and stressful games. $125.... I think TL's as lucky to have Tarson as Tarson's lucky to have TL. How would you punish Tarson? TL could have just announced that what Tarson did was unacceptable given the circumstances. It's easy enough to say Tarson handled it properly after the fact and it's a first offense, so no direct actions will be taken but the next time anybody spoils a game, measures will be taken. This would show other players that even if you post in an obscure forum and you make a point not to be literal about your results, you can still get in trouble.
You may say I'm mellow but from my perspective this is a small offense, and Tarson doesn't deserve to be punished like that. It seems to me like it's vindictive for no actual reason.
I understand the need to set examples from time to time - and while this will work, there are better, softer ways to handle this particular case.
In the end, the TSL will grant $125 less to people who deserve that money.
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this is awsome compared to the naugrim incident. A real step up for tsl in my books <3
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On February 12 2010 12:56 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 12:19 Gnabgib wrote:On February 12 2010 11:43 Djzapz wrote: In my eyes, Tarson's punishment (or warning) shouldn't have anything to do with the tiny little bit of money he managed to get after he pulled through hundreds of hours of practice and stressful games. $125.... I think TL's as lucky to have Tarson as Tarson's lucky to have TL. How would you punish Tarson? TL could have just announced that what Tarson did was unacceptable given the circumstances. It's easy enough to say Tarson handled it properly after the fact and it's a first offense, so no direct actions will be taken but the next time anybody spoils a game, measures will be taken. This would show other players that even if you post in an obscure forum and you make a point not to be literal about your results, you can still get in trouble. You may say I'm mellow but from my perspective this is a small offense, and Tarson doesn't deserve to be punished like that. It seems to me like it's vindictive for no actual reason. I understand the need to set examples from time to time - and while this will work, there are better, softer ways to handle this particular case. In the end, the TSL will grant $125 less to people who deserve that money.
I think you are placing spoiling the result on too low of a issue. Its a BIG deal. Majority of people watch to know who won and will continue on in the tournament, if they are told who won before the game is even aired they are far less likely to watch. Punishment was made clear to the players, but Tarson did it anyways. If they did not punish him, it would have less impact on the rest of the players, and could potentially lead to a even worse spoiler.
If you saw somebody break a rule and get away with it, would that really send a warning to you? On the other hand, if you see somebody break the rule and get punished 50% would you really want to risk committing the same offense?
TL would be justified in revoking the full 250, but like you said this is the first time and Tarson wasn't an asshole about it, so they didn't take all of it which they could have easily.
I personally think its a completely fair decision that both sends a stern warning, and doesn't overly punish Tarson for the first public spoiler.
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On February 12 2010 12:56 Djzapz wrote: TL could have just announced that what Tarson did was unacceptable given the circumstances. It's easy enough to say Tarson handled it properly after the fact and it's a first offense, so no direct actions will be taken but the next time anybody spoils a game, measures will be taken. This would show other players that even if you post in an obscure forum and you make a point not to be literal about your results, you can still get in trouble.
You may say I'm mellow but from my perspective this is a small offense, and Tarson doesn't deserve to be punished like that. It seems to me like it's vindictive for no actual reason. .
Put yourself in pokerstrategy.com's shoes. You paid 10k in prizes (and god knows how much more in administrative fees) to sponsor the tournament FOR ADVERTISING. So you can have starcraft players hear "starcraft skills transfer to poker and you can learn at pokerstrategy.com". If player in the tournament violated his contract and potentially you've lost out on people watching the casts because they know the results. Had the spoiling been more widespread, and not punished, I wouldn't blame pokerstrategy.com if they tried to pull their sponsorship based on breech of contract.
You can't have a tournament without players, and you can't get players without a prize pool, and you don't have a prize pool without sponsors. The sponsor's interests MUST be protected so that we can have tournaments like this in the future.
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I see where you guys are coming from but I still think I'm right =P we'll have to agree to disagree.
I think a public warning using Tarson as an example with the clear notice that anything similar in the future would have actual consequences would be sufficient. This is how I function and it has worked for me so far on the small scale.
Having experience in organizing groups of people for various types of "things", I have reasons to believe that starting off with a warning sends a clear message if done properly and you avoid the bitter taste of stealing the guy's cookie.
If after all of this, you still need to punish the player because you don't quite perceive human psychology the way I do (and I study psychology), I'll repeat myself but I need to put an emphasis on this; SC players don't gain -nearly- enough money. Don't take the cash he earned over the course of 254 ladder games, 8 games in the qualifiers and 3 games against Nony.
Now let's be stupidly conservative and say games averaged 10 minutes each (which is absurd). That's roughly 44 hours (+finding games,+wiping off tears of blood). Let's not even convert this to minimum wage. I realize that this argument doesn't hold much water but I really think that Tarson *WON* $250 no matter what.
Punishment shouldn't take from him what he earned throughout TSL.
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It ultimately comes down to supply and demand. Are players or sponsors in greater demand? With foreigner Starcraft, I think it's the latter. Any game with $10,000 tournaments are going to attract many good players; not many sponsors are willing to shell out $10,000 for tournaments, however.
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On February 12 2010 14:34 Djzapz wrote: I see where you guys are coming from but I still think I'm right =P we'll have to agree to disagree.
I think a public warning using Tarson as an example with the clear notice that anything similar in the future would have actual consequences would be sufficient. This is how I function and it has worked for me so far on the small scale.
Having experience in organizing groups of people for various types of "things", I have reasons to believe that starting off with a warning sends a clear message if done properly and you avoid the bitter taste of stealing the guy's cookie.
If after all of this, you still need to punish the player because you don't quite perceive human psychology the way I do (and I study psychology), I'll repeat myself but I need to put an emphasis on this; SC players don't gain -nearly- enough money. Don't take the cash he earned over the course of 254 ladder games, 8 games in the qualifiers and 3 games against Nony.
Now let's be stupidly conservative and say games averaged 10 minutes each (which is absurd). That's roughly 44 hours (+finding games,+wiping off tears of blood). Let's not even convert this to minimum wage. I realize that this argument doesn't hold much water but I really think that Tarson *WON* $250 no matter what.
Punishment shouldn't take from him what he earned throughout TSL. He didn't earn any cash. It isn't written in law that "if tarson plays xxx ladder games and beats xxx players he gets 250 dollars". He gets his money if he goes by the rules of the tournament, it's pretty obvious. He broke the contract he had with teamliquid. In the same way, teamliquid could break it by not paying him at all for no reason. That is similarly breaking the contract, I'm sure you wouldn't mind that, right?
If he breaks his part of the contract, teamliquid.net has no reason to do their part. They could easily have taken all his prize money away. The fact they didn't was them being overly generous, be thankful.
Please.
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On February 12 2010 05:19 DoctorHelvetica wrote: Seems like there is this weird idea that the TSL is "just for fun", like it's a shits and giggles tournament and it's totally casual. That's an insult to the TSL.
The TSL is a serious competition for foreign StarCraft players with high stakes and I'll be damned if the admins pussy their way around the rules for "fun". Same with people bitching about cheaters being disqualified. This isn't a LAN at your friends house. This is the goddamned TeamLiquid StarLeague. STARLEAGUE.
.../clap
Good decision, this sums up how I feel about the punishment. People take this event too casually. $10k isn't something to laugh about.
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Germany / USA16648 Posts
On February 12 2010 17:45 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 14:34 Djzapz wrote: I see where you guys are coming from but I still think I'm right =P we'll have to agree to disagree.
I think a public warning using Tarson as an example with the clear notice that anything similar in the future would have actual consequences would be sufficient. This is how I function and it has worked for me so far on the small scale.
Having experience in organizing groups of people for various types of "things", I have reasons to believe that starting off with a warning sends a clear message if done properly and you avoid the bitter taste of stealing the guy's cookie.
If after all of this, you still need to punish the player because you don't quite perceive human psychology the way I do (and I study psychology), I'll repeat myself but I need to put an emphasis on this; SC players don't gain -nearly- enough money. Don't take the cash he earned over the course of 254 ladder games, 8 games in the qualifiers and 3 games against Nony.
Now let's be stupidly conservative and say games averaged 10 minutes each (which is absurd). That's roughly 44 hours (+finding games,+wiping off tears of blood). Let's not even convert this to minimum wage. I realize that this argument doesn't hold much water but I really think that Tarson *WON* $250 no matter what.
Punishment shouldn't take from him what he earned throughout TSL. He didn't earn any cash. It isn't written in law that "if tarson plays xxx ladder games and beats xxx players he gets 250 dollars". He gets his money if he goes by the rules of the tournament, it's pretty obvious. He broke the contract he had with teamliquid. In the same way, teamliquid could break it by not paying him at all for no reason. That is similarly breaking the contract, I'm sure you wouldn't mind that, right? If he breaks his part of the contract, teamliquid.net has no reason to do their part. They could easily have taken all his prize money away. The fact they didn't was them being overly generous, be thankful. Please. Also, let's assume for a second that we don't penalize Tarson. Let us further assume that someone gives his results away to a greater audience in one of the later rounds, or - god beware - the final. Setting a precedent of letting someone get away with leaking results is like shooting ourselves in the foot.
To protect the TSL the precedent we set has to really discourage any future leaking.
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I dont really want to butt in, but...
1) As much as I feel sorry for Tarson for losing money for a second of weakness, I agree with the penalty
2) As someone mentioned earlier, it was not the first time. I will PM some admin with what I know and if it is relevant you will know about it.
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In my opinion, claiming this was uncalled for, unfair or quarreling on the tiniest of differences of definitions just to point out that TL.net was wrong to do this, simply demonstrates how little some people understands the concept of a clean tournament as well as sponsorship.
Best let the people who actually know what they're doing, do their thing.
Personally, I couldn't agree more with TL.net on this and think it's a very kind but still strict and clear, gesture =)
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On February 12 2010 14:34 Djzapz wrote: I see where you guys are coming from but I still think I'm right =P we'll have to agree to disagree. .
Fine, go through your life breaking contracts. Let me know how that turns out
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On February 12 2010 21:25 Gnabgib wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2010 14:34 Djzapz wrote: I see where you guys are coming from but I still think I'm right =P we'll have to agree to disagree. . Fine, go through your life breaking contracts. Let me know how that turns out You don't need to get an attitude... Getting bitter like that when someone disagrees with you won't bring you far in life. There are plenty of boundaries to be crossed harmlessly.
As for the rest of people raging on me, I understand that you guys just need to get revenge for anything that's not 'by-the-book' as that's how society taught you to react to everything.
The 'revenge' thing shows right here too. Just because I disagree, apparently, I'm objectively wrong and this guy even said 'simply demonstrates how little some people understands the concept of a clean tournament as well as sponsorship.'
While he's entitled to his opinion and all, I have myself participated to tournaments with much bigger money pools that didn't insist on punishing people who crossed lines. In some cases this could be problematic as there are cases in which punishment is called for.
Carnac brought up something which actually made me laugh because it's a typical case of 'I'm just right, you're wrong and this is what happens if you don't listen'. Hypothetical situation which can only be prevented by taking $125 from Tarson's pockets. Let me recap.
1- Public warning with an example most likely be as effective as taking $125 from him. I disagree with the punishment itself. I'm sure Tarson doesn't care about $125 but he's more annoyed by the thread which says Tarson is capable of great evil. That would have been enough. 2- If punishment besides a warning has to be given, it shouldn't have anything to do with the money he won.
You completely dismissed everything I've been saying and figured 1- No, your 'warning' thing doesn't work because I don't think so. 2- This is the only possible punishment.
Now I understand that there's no way this is going to change, and I'm probably going to have MORE people completely ignore my points to say 'Well if we don't shoot Tarson in the kneecap more people will leak results' and 'LOL Dj you don't understand tournaments, vengeance is absolutely necessary -- for some reason -- that's the tournament spirit anyway.'
I want to say I'll quit posting because at this point I just have to rehash what I think over and over and I know I'm not going to convince anybody, but yeah... If there's more people who insist on saying what people have already said in the previous posts, I guess I'll have to re-state my 'counter arguments' however weak you may think they were.
Cheers.
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Seeing as most things have been said, I strongly disagree with you, dj. Not just because "society says so", but in my opinion it is common sense to have rules in order as well as show the community that they're being upheld to secure any possible future sponsorships.
After all, less people watching = less people being "exposed" to the advertisement making this tournament possible. I strongly believe TL.net's message is effective and for the better in general.
I get what you're saying but I don't agree, and I suppose the same thing goes the other way, hence I thank you for your hospitality and agree on disagreeing =)
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125$ is not more for poland then for usa ... in europe $ isnt that high then in usa so its only 2/3 euro here normaly (even the euro is very weak last month because of greece etc thats good for all tsl players from europe HAHA) xD
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Unneeded long post.
I agree with TL's decision. That is all.
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Good decision. And although his actions were straddling the fence between actually leaking the results, I think it was pretty generous to let him keep half the money. Giving the rest to charity was also a nice thing to do ... I dunno why ppl like Morrow would be so against it =/.
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Well, money goes to charity after all.
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On February 13 2010 00:16 Heaven.ReV wrote: Seeing as most things have been said, I strongly disagree with you, dj. Not just because "society says so", but in my opinion it is common sense to have rules in order as well as show the community that they're being upheld to secure any possible future sponsorships.
After all, less people watching = less people being "exposed" to the advertisement making this tournament possible. I strongly believe TL.net's message is effective and for the better in general.
I get what you're saying but I don't agree, and I suppose the same thing goes the other way, hence I thank you for your hospitality and agree on disagreeing =) Cheers.
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Any word on what charity has been chosen?
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On February 13 2010 02:03 slimshady wrote:Well, money goes to charity after all. Should go to haiti.........just sayin`
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