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Sweden33719 Posts
I wanted to re-post this here, as I think theres a lot of people talking about this that either understate its effects, or greatly exaggerate it. I posted a lot of this, but its on page 400 so......
KR playing on KR: Lan latency in SC1 EU playing on US: Low latency in SC1 KR playing on US: High latency in SC1 KR playing on EU: Extra high latency in SC1
And you know what, Id even say its a little bit smaller of a difference than that (and its actually not as bad as high latency was in SC1 at all, Im just using it for scale really).
On March 27 2011 07:58 Dingo22 wrote: All this rage on today's victors is silly. To blame lag for MVP's loss is dumb (Adel is in France, MVP in Korea... both played on NA servers... equal lag). The same holds true in Nestea v. Goody. Its not equal lag, the connection between EU and US is better... But its not like the lag is as bad as a lot of people are trying to make it out to be -_-;
Its gonna play a role sometimes, but if you actually practice enough on the server to get used to how the timings differ (because the timings at which you have to do certain things ARE going to differ), it can most likely become very minimal.
When people talk about latency, it always brings to mind an article or quote I read somewhere, about how what matters the most is really not absolute latency, but rather stability. As long as you can get used to it, its not gonna be too bad for your game I think.
If your first game on NA is your TSL games, then I would say its a pretty big disadvantage but its your own fault.
On March 27 2011 08:04 Logo2010 wrote: Does anyone believe Mvp, Nestea, Genius played well today? And therefore lost straight up? Whatever about other issues. In a gaming sense, how do you account for Mvp losing a reaper and marine to probes after 15 nexus. Is that good play or bad play? Genius fighting sieged tanks and marines vs sentries. Is that good play or bad play?
Nestea banelings vs mech. Moving spinecrawlers into sieged tanks and marines? Is that good play or bad play?
Yeah to imply Goody would tear up the GSL when players like SlayersMin, Seed and Bomber aren't even in the GSL, well is that a smart statement or a stupid statement?
Grats to the winning players today but lets not go overboard. Also realise there's the GSL World Championship beginning in two days and some of the players playing today have their mind on that competition. Didnt see MVPs games, but he does seem to have a tough time v Ps lately (1-2 alica, 0-2 genius to drop down to Code A)....
Only saw the last game for Genius vs QXC, but it seemed to me like Genius hadnt really adapted to the new patch very well (I think upgrades are a lot more important than they ever were, having a shit-ton of gas saved up for templars isnt really as good now for obvious reasons).
Missed most of game 2 of nestea vs goody, but well... He did seem to waste an awful lot of stuff, but I dont think he played so bad that you need to take anything away from Goody - Nestea doesnt play flawlessly in other games either.
As for dominating GSL, no I dont think Goody would do that - if he wins this TSL, yes we can start thinking about it but he has a lot of rounds left to go.
I mean, these are all good players that are losing, really big ones actually but... Come on, last GSL results for players in TSL: Me: Ro16 Boxer: Out in groups, down to code A Nestea: Out in groups, retained code S MVP: Out in groups, down to code A Fruitdealer: Out in groups, retained code S Genius: Out in groups, retained code S NaDa: RO8 MC: Won last GSL HuK: Made code S
I think all we can take from this is that 1) SC2 is currently really volatile in terms of players form changing really quickly from day to day, and the game is perhaps not as well figured out as we sometimes like to think. 2) The guys that won played good.
Another thing I want to mention here is that when you lose in slightly laggy settings, and to make it worse, slightly laggy settings that you usually never play in... You are going to blame it on this. You are not going to go "Oh, I was off my game because IIm not used to these conditions and it got in my head".
No, you go "FUck this MOTHER FUCKING LAG, and FUCK this stupid server". And its natural, but keep this in mind when someone complains about lag. It probably did lag, and it probably did affect him a little, but as someone who at first felt that playing on the US was a complete joke, and now think its "a little annoying but mostly not game deciding"... Well, its just going to feel a lot worse than it actually was.
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Yeah...this is a really good post.
And everybody loves Jinro so +1
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Thanks for the info Jinro! I was glad to read about this from someone in the know. It was an exciting day of TSL and I don't want all the rage about it to take away from that!
P.S. I am a big fan!
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Sweden33719 Posts
I mean, I dont want to downplay the effects too much because when you are used to the game behaving one way and then having it behave another, everything is going to get thrown off, you will start missing depots etc... But my point is more that its possible to practice for this - I think - by playing more on the US server.
If events like this become the standard, we will probably see some better performances out of the Koreans if they take to practicing that way. How much better, its hard to say.
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This post was needed. Thank you Jinro, for explaining it and for being such an awesome person.
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Please lock and stick this thread. Jinro's reputation coupled with the fact that he is in fact playing from KR is enough for his statement to be considered final.
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I agree that the effect of lag is more something mentally frustrating rather than something that inherently breaks the game. It could be comparable to having just slightly different mouse settings than normal (probably even less because mouse settings are really crucial)
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Great post that clarifies a lot of things. Some people were randomly claiming that the earthquake in japan destroyed some internet lines so the lag for korea -> US is even higher than normal and were saying that the lag was up to 1.5 second (which is pretty impossible imo).
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Great point with the results of the last GSL. So true.
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Thank you for this post Jinro!
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Thank you for clearing that up Jinro, I was thinking that it could maybe explain form but looks like they had themselves to blame. A properly good and informative post as always, you are my hero, Jinro
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Very nice write up. Im 100% agreeing with your points, the facts speaks itself. We need blizzard to work on supporting the competitive scene. A little tiny improvement on connection will make a huge difference in game.
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plz lock and stick
thank you jinro to make this clear sure there is lag sure it matters but it doenst make the gap from 200 vs 120 supply 5vs3 base adel vs mvp ...
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Thanks Jinro, excellent post. I guess any good tournament needs a little drama, but people are running with it a bit too much.
You can probably not go into this specifically, but is it safe to assume TL is in contact with Blizzard about the latency as well (this really being the first big tournament of this kind so far)? Just to cover that bit of rage over so we can go back to focussing on the games?
Which were great btw, ffwd to tomorrow plz.
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Thanks for the great insight. This should really squash this discussion. Yes lag sucks, but there was plenty of opportunity for the players to prepare and adapt for the situation.
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Jinro has spoken I feel unworthy to say other
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Very good post, people are too often inclined to jump to conclusions about the lag when they havent really experienced it themselves. This provides some good firsthand info.
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The amount of profanity used makes me laugh so much.
But it's a really good insight from a pro player, not some random people, that makes the analysis actually worth something.
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like i said before in the TSL thread, he is right
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JINRO I LOVE YOU, great write up and im glad we have a proper view from someone who has experienced the lag on how bad it is, thanks for clearing this issue up <3
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Good to hear, thanks for the info sir!
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I've heard rumors that the 9.0 EQ in Japan may have attributed to worse lag playing on NA than prior due to the under-ocean connection. Can you discuss a little about the lag possibly being worse now than it was previously? We used to watch Cella stream on NA and he never had problems but lately he's complained more about lag on NA than before.
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aka. If they lost because of some sort of delay, that's just because they didn't prepare for it.
Thank you mr Jinro.
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8716 Posts
I 100% agree that if they played a bunch of games on NA leading up to their matches, they would have performed much much better. Becoming familiar with the latency is very important. Expecting one reaction time from the game and getting a different one will mess up micro more than having a slow reaction time. When expectations are in sync with what's actually happening, the player can be comfortable and play pretty damn well.
The only raw disadvantage imposed on the Koreans is a reaction time that simply cannot be overcome. If they need to react to something by 1000ms, and they are able to react in 900ms, and their latency is 150ms, then they fail and it's not their fault. It's the latency's fault. If their latency is 60ms, then they succeed and everyone is happy. These situations were extremely rare today.
For the most part, we saw players who were very unfamiliar with the latency and obviously experiencing a general feeling of discomfort and perhaps frustration that starts affecting all aspects of their play. Better preparation would have prevented this.
Also I know for a fact that TSL staff recommended to the Korean players that they practice a bit on NA to accustom themselves to the latency. They even offered guest accounts so that neither the Koreans nor their teams would have to purchase NA accounts (though I think it's clear that NA accounts would be a good investment for KR players).
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Thank you very much for making this post. I was hoping you would go ahead and clarify for all of us non-koreans just how bad the lag actually is.
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Thanks Jinro! Nice to see some people in this community can still articulate their thoughts clearly and accurately.
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8716 Posts
Also I know for a fact that TSL staff recommended to the Korean players that they practice a bit on NA to accustom themselves to the latency. They even offered guest accounts so that neither the Koreans nor their teams would have to purchase NA accounts (though I think it's clear that NA accounts would be a good investment for KR players).
(editing this in to my other post)
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deL: What are your views on foreign/non-Korean players in general? What are the major differences, where do foreigners lack, and where are they strong?
ZephyrPrime: I think they are very good at macro things but little bit bad at micro control than Koreans. While they have good strategies, they lack of multi-control. But Koreans are very good ad micro, multi-control, so I think that is the major difference between them.
I think the Prime coach's explanation of the difference between Koreans and foreigners explains what happened quite nicely. Both sides had some lag (Koreans slightly more as Jinro explained) so the game came down to strategies over micro and the foreigners delivered.
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Thanks for making it clear Jinro, I assume a lot wanted to know about the condition for Koreans.
A huge factor also I think is that the Koreans have a hard time to get replays and info of the players. I assume they are not used to find intel on foreigners. I actually think most of them haven't even made any special preparation like changing their training pattern specifically for TSL. I know for sure that the Swedish players have invested quite a lot for this and players like Tyler who really puts a lot of effort into this benefit tons.
I do think that after this first round that the Koreans do realize that they have to prepare more in the same way as they do for a GSL-match.
This is based on assumptions but the combination with not being used to the ping difference is affecting the outcome slightly. Still I'm extremely impressed by the performance especially against the Koreans and no it wasn't a big upset to me that some of them got defeated considering the situation.
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Does anyone know what the latency is from Korea to the US bnet server? Is it over 250ms?
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On March 27 2011 08:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote: Better preparation would have prevented this.
I think this is the point we need to hit home. I get the feeling that most of the Koreans came to play the TSL thinking it was a "walkover" at least in the first round (read: MC's TSL interview). Very few of these players probably prepared for the names they were playing, and seemingly not on the North American server. Who's fault is that? Its theirs. They lost because of this. But its a loss, and nothing should be taken from the winners. They did indeed beat the GSL Champions that played. Those GSL champions agreed to the terms of the tournament and played as hard as they could. When IdrA or whatever have a big tournament, they go practice on the server that they need to practice on to prepare. Preparation is key.
If you look at the FXOpen, many koreans toppled European and North American players. What does everyone expect? TeamLiquid is supposed to fly all these players to a studio? If they were to do that then most of these players wouldn't even be able to take part in the tournament. I'm severely enjoying the tournament, the games, the match ups, the upsets and thats all that matters.
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On March 27 2011 08:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote: I 100% agree that if they played a bunch of games on NA leading up to their matches, they would have performed much much better. Becoming familiar with the latency is very important. Expecting one reaction time from the game and getting a different one will mess up micro more than having a slow reaction time. When expectations are in sync with what's actually happening, the player can be comfortable and play pretty damn well.
The only raw disadvantage imposed on the Koreans is a reaction time that simply cannot be overcome. If they need to react to something by 1000ms, and they are able to react in 900ms, and their latency is 150ms, then they fail and it's not their fault. It's the latency's fault. If their latency is 60ms, then they succeed and everyone is happy. These situations were extremely rare today.
For the most part, we saw players who were very unfamiliar with the latency and obviously experiencing a general feeling of discomfort and perhaps frustration that starts affecting all aspects of their play. Better preparation would have prevented this.
Also I know for a fact that TSL staff recommended to the Korean players that they practice a bit on NA to accustom themselves to the latency. They even offered guest accounts so that neither the Koreans nor their teams would have to purchase NA accounts (though I think it's clear that NA accounts would be a good investment for KR players).
Do you know if they took advantage of this? As an aside, it may be difficult to get the proper training off of a guest account (unless they were a borrowed account at Masters League, and not just a guest pass).
In any manner, I wouldn't be surprised at a general lack of preparation from the Koreans heading into TSL3. I doubt they put the same stake into a "foreign" tournament as they would into a Korean one. Hopefully once they realize that we are actually at their level in a lot of cases this will change
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Boxer knew. All hail the Emperor!
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Q: Many fans are saying the Koreans will dominate this tournament. Do you feel that this is inevitable or do the international players have a good chance?
A: The Koreans are better players and the best Koreans have the higher seed and latency advantage on the best international players so the top Koreans will probably dominate the tournament.
heh, couldn't help but re-read Idra's interview after seeing this. Thanks Jinro & Tyler for your insight. =D
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ogsmc said it in his twitter acc that he will train now for 2nd round we'll see if he wont ra will clean the floor with him (sry to say but ciara was no real enemy)
i would like see taylors post in jinros 1st post cause its so damn well too !!
look fxopen mc lose 0-2 vs cloud, marineking 0-2 vs socke, and inca 0-2 vs cruncher and 1-2 vs naugrim that shows you .. theres no skill gap ! at least they should train more
also look what jinro said ... expect MC nearly all of the invites was 1. round out or even went down to code A (expect jinro and mc i think?)
for me it also seems that
Boxer seemed to be a bit more prepared, and nightend totaly missunderstand the lag issue while playing no attack whole game style and lost in 1 big fight while others try to make nonstop action
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It would be nice to know whether the Koreans in the TSL were aware of the importance of practicing on the US server to get used to lag beforehand, or whether it all came as a surprise to them the day of their matches.
Because if they had ample warning ahead of time that lag would be involved, then they could have done what most of the foreigners have been doing for the past few weeks and practiced on foreign servers to familiarize themselves with the latency.
But just from reading the comments Koreans have been leaving regarding the TSL, it just seems that Koreans in general are very ignorant of the way lag and latency work, so I believe the top Koreans in the TSL may not have had the knowledge necessary to know that practicing on the US server would have been so crucial to their success.
All that said, though, I want to take nothing away from the foreigners who beat these Korean giants, as they did it primarily with strategy and tactics from what I watched, so placing too much importance on the latency is being unfair to these guys.
EDIT: Just read Tyler's post above mine, which he made while I was typing this up. So that definitely shows that Koreans HAD the forewarning and just didn't take advantage of it. Though I do think perhaps a general lack in understanding of the effects of latency could be to blame for why they didn't heed the warning.
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Jinro pretty much summed up my thoughts on the matter. I play on a really trashy laptop that makes my game terribly slow, and as a result, I'm extremely used to playing in these conditions. But whenever I ladder on my friend's fancy computer for fun, I actually get thrown off cause I'm used to lag (lol). But I'm usually able to adapt after a few matches. It should be somewhat similar for pro players; they just have to get used to conditions, and if they aren't, their gameplay deficiencies are also partly their fault.
It's also very nice to get the insight of a player who's obviously had experience with these issues before. Thanks for clarifying things, Jinro.
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thank you very much good sir. everyone needed this.
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ok well makes sense. the games ARE affected quite a bit by latency, but can be compensated for in a way?
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Same thing happened in DotA, when China dominated all other countries in all LAN TOURNAMENTS but couln'd even be in TOP3 at some ONLINE TOURNAMENTS.
We'll see who's the better player in an future OFFLINE TOURNAMENT, at equal conditions.
On March 27 2011 08:50 Kazeyonoma wrote: I've heard rumors that the 9.0 EQ in Japan may have attributed to worse lag playing on NA than prior due to the under-ocean connection. Can you discuss a little about the lag possibly being worse now than it was previously? We used to watch Cella stream on NA and he never had problems but lately he's complained more about lag on NA than before.
Are you seriously? LOL?!?!?! Guess you haven't watched him STREAM that mutch, and you probably don't undestand one single korean word.
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<3 Jinro, I wish everyone on TL posted as intelligently as you!
also I don't remember where it is in the TSL thread, but someone in Seoul pinged the US bnet server and it was around 150-250, no where near the 400 some people were throwing around.
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If I have a KR acct, I wouldn't want to practice with a higher lat there.
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+1 for TL team members for addressing this. This helps unite us all on a topic that no one can fully understand as most of us fall into two categories, those who experience lag while playing and those who do not.
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On March 27 2011 09:02 emperorchampion wrote:
Do you know if they took advantage of this? As an aside, it may be difficult to get the proper training off of a guest account (unless they were a borrowed account at Masters League, and not just a guest pass).
I dont think they would need hard opponents to simply get used to the latency... they could do that rofl stomping newbies, just macroing and microing. ... but some proper opponents would hurt for the training in general though.
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So basically the Koreans probably didn't get used to the lag and that's why they're playing poorly?
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Thanks for correcting me Jinro. I have experienced lag, and it messes with my head (even if it happens infrequently) and I tend to blame poor play on it. Lag shouldn't be part of the game, but I don't know what can be done about it... Minus artificially imposing latency on others, which I would never argue for.
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Yeah, I completely agree. You really have analyze strategic decisions versus their displays of micro and see where the games were really going wrong. The strategic decisions coming from the Korean players were questionable in a lot of cases, and I really feel like that's where things were going wrong. That's not to say there were not losses due to the latency, but I don't think any of the games hinged on latency. The only things I could really point out were storm and EMP placements.
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On March 27 2011 08:40 Darthozzan wrote:Thank you for clearing that up Jinro, I was thinking that it could maybe explain form but looks like they had themselves to blame. A properly good and informative post as always, you are my hero, Jinro
I agree that actually noone likes to talk about it...and thanks for making a new Thread bcoz i cannot read all the crazy community posts
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Was really hoping for some sort of "official" comment on that stuff. I guess Jinros and Tylers posts sum up the situation quite well.
On March 27 2011 09:07 Seiyu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 08:50 Kazeyonoma wrote: I've heard rumors that the 9.0 EQ in Japan may have attributed to worse lag playing on NA than prior due to the under-ocean connection. Can you discuss a little about the lag possibly being worse now than it was previously? We used to watch Cella stream on NA and he never had problems but lately he's complained more about lag on NA than before. Are you seriously? LOL?!?!?! Guess you haven't watched him STREAM that mutch, and you probably don't undestand one single korean word.
What do you mean? Cella actually communicates in english with his foreign fans.
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Thanks for clearing this up, it's nice to have a real source of information rather than 200 pages of speculating and whining.
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It also explains the laddering from tlo in the Na-server ^^ I hope it helps him a bit against NaDa.
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qxc played amazing , and so did adel ( altough mvp wasnt at his best for sure ). Stop taking credit away from the players.
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Great post.
The Foreigner played awesome and there was obvious lag issues. I think both sides are over exaggerating it.
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Thank you im glad the debate can be settled!
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When I play on a router shared between two other people streaming Korean dramas at the same time, my lag gets HORRENDOUS. That, and my computer can barely run the lowest settings to begin with. These two factors make it absolutely impossible to micro my Sentry force fields because my computer freezes up the second before a big engagement and doesn't unfreeze itself until after my entire army disappears.
I'm not trying to go against what you said though, because as long as I have the router all to myself and as long as I can win the early game (when our armies are still small), everything flows smoothly. My force fields still come out on time, even when I get the "waiting for sever" screen.
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Good to know that these games weren't completely a fluke! Reassuring update, thanks Jinro!
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On March 27 2011 09:16 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 09:15 TheBJ wrote: qxc played amazing , and so did adel ( altough mvp wasnt at his best for sure ). Stop taking credit away from the players. I don't even know why anyone expected mvp to win, he has played really bad against protoss lately, and then having to play against a completely new style, pretty much a guaranteed loss.
Man you should watch the gstl. Besides when he loses against protoss at least he does it at full speed, not super retarded half speed. I think our foreigner's played awesomely - but we will have to wait til koreans and foreigners can meet in a tournament en masse before we can garner any foreigner pride - I know I will.
big Thanks to Jinro for bringing firsthand information to everyone. It is really too bad about the lag.
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Some people keep making dumb comments saying that MvP and Genius lost because they didn't expand or get upgrades and that has nothing to do with lag, but it does. When you lose small fights (due to lag or not) it's very hard to expand and get upgrades. They have to first use those resources and replenish their army in order to secure an expansion.
Also, Adell and QXC also played awesome should get the credit they deserve.
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Very good post, personally I always stayed on the US server so I can't speak much to this but I understand everything you are saying. <3 Jinro
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Jinro, the voice of reason. Still, its too bad, as even a perceived latency problem de-legitimizes all international online tournaments, which are really the only way to have global leagues with a scene as spread out as sc2.
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Imho lag issues are noticed the most in genius vs qxc games I don't think I've ever seen so many missed forcefield. Had he used them better I'm sure xelnaga game would be totally different. (please notice how he lost his first exp... wtf) Pheonix micro was off, storms were late, unit control was poor... yes, his gameplan was horrible, upgrades nonexistant and exps awfully late but still lag issues were noticeable.
Clearly he didn't spend much time practicing on NA ladder (if any) but at the end I feel like lag is tainting awesomeness of this tournament. Not by much but with TL we're used to perfection ; ) !
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Well this actually kinda summed up the topic I just made...and its from a experienced perspective too. Well done and good post.
As an aside, it is nice to see how active you have remained on the forums with all this considered practice/GSL wise. Kudos to you good sir.
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Then I don't understand how Ace was so consistent in IEM. He was undefeated in group stages and went on to win. If the game and the players are as volatile as you seem to think it is, shouldn't he have lost more games?
If Koreans are consistently better in a LAN setting while the rest are better when playing the in these higher-lagged conditions, then the only conclusion one can derive is that lag does play a huge factor.
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Ah yes. Very wise words from Tyler and Jinro.
Interesting to see that out of all the Koreans and Korean-trained foreigners, only MC and Boxer have gone past the first round thus far. Perhaps foreigners have a chance after all! However, MC is still looking quite formidable...
It really looked like Nestea, MVP, and Genius were very unprepared for their matches, both in latency-tolerance and play-style. From the interviews and the games themselves, it seemed like they weren't taking TSL as seriously as the non-Koreans. Heck, comparing QXC's essay-length responses to Genius's one-liners gave me some worry that the Koreans may have been lacking in motivation and time.
Then again, IM is fresh off of a week of GSTL, so it's understandable that Nesta and MVP may not have had time recently to prepare for the TSL latency.
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"If your first game on NA is your TSL games, then I would say its a pretty big disadvantage but its your own fault." ~ Jinro.
Quoted for truth. Every tournament is different. Thus requiring different practice, and if part of practicing for the TSL requires you to play on a different server, then you do it. And yes, this can sometimes be an unfair advantage, but things like this are unavoidable on an international level with todays technology.
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IMO lag should never exist in such a high level of competition, sadly we are constrained by technology, boundaries and other factors that won't allow best players to all gather and play on lan settings.
taking turns to lag ( switching servers ) isn't really the best solution as well
when players have to adapt strategies due to the inability to micro, (think i remember MC mentioning about doing specific stuff so he doesn't need to micro as much as he couldn't) then the game isn't played at it's finest
hope there's some day where technology allows near 0 lag
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Hey JinrO ,
I know the skillgab between Koreans - even TOP Koreans and TOP foreigners might not be huge, but there certainly is a skillgap. I'm not saying a Korean can't lose to a foreigner but as you stated in your opening post playing from KR to US is like high latency in Starcraft 1.
Now I do remember my Starcraft Broodwar days and if I remember playing on iCCup and then switching back to normal battle.net even with low latency .. it was terrible. Now you are saying it feels like high latency which would be ridiculous.
Thats just my 2 cents as I'm not taking away credit from really good performance of the foreigners but I can certainly understand a bit of frustration when players can't perform to their best because they can't play under best circumstances. Same on LAN when players would need to use different equipment than they would usually do, different chairs, etc pp!
Hopefully no one takes this as offence.
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Thank you! Saved me from having to read through hundreds of pages of bullshit, this is all i need to know and i trust you.
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United States22883 Posts
On March 27 2011 09:33 kheldorin wrote: Then I don't understand how Ace was so consistent in IEM. He was undefeated in group stages and went on to win. If the game and the players are as volatile as you seem to think it is, shouldn't he have lost more games?
If Koreans are consistently better in a LAN setting while the rest are better when playing the in these higher-lagged conditions, then the only conclusion one can derive is that lag does play a huge factor.
. By this logic, Ace should have gone undefeated in GSL too and would've had no problem qualifying in the past.
He hit a good stretch of play during that weekend, likewise oGs TOP hit a bad stretch when he went to Dreamhack and fizzled out with his teammate.
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On March 27 2011 08:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote: When people talk about latency, it always brings to mind an article or quote I read somewhere, about how what matters the most is really not absolute latency, but rather stability. As long as you can get used to it, its not gonna be too bad for your game I think.
This is so true. Spikes kill gaming much more than high latency ever does. My experience about this is mostly from DotA where it isn't as sensitive in most cases. 250 ms b-net is fully playable, takes ~2 games to get used to it from the sub 100 ms of host bots or garena. You can feel the difference and alternating between them isn't that easy, but it does work.
Then you get a game with spikes or varying latency and you guess timings and guess wrong mostly. Mostly those games are from my connection having issues and the ping jitter being as high as the ping.
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If lag was such an issue for KR->US, I think korean teams could invest some of their income to get a business prioritized ISP with a good routing to US west and EU.
KT has MPLS for example, its probly not cheap but with 10ish Code A/Code S crushing thru foreigners tournaments 24/7, its peanuts to pay.
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Thank you for explaining and shutting everyone up! <3
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The most USERS from here don't understand the huge difference that LAG does. Here in Brazil the delay is like 150ms, because the servers are actually in USA, you'll know what's is lag when you press a key to update your building but it's1.5 sec to it actually happen's, then you'll move your camera to another place but when you back to your building you'll see that nothing happened to your build, because there where another action in the queue and then the instability of the internet, because of the delay, makes a conflict of actions.
I don't want to flame non-korean players, but you guys must know that LAG actually does a lot of difference in an PRO match as the gap between players aren't that mutch as JINRO stated.
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Thanks for the comments J&T, clarified a lot of things.
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"It's Super Effective!" Come on guys lets not take anything away from the players who won today. Just because we might be mad about liquibets and the like doesn't mean we have to be jerks to the players who won. Rally behind Jinro and approach this rationally!
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On March 27 2011 08:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Its not equal lag, the connection between EU and US is better... I wonder about this. I can think of two different effects that might be happening. I haven't made any measurements, so this is mostly speculation.
1) A steady connection is possible, but the achievable latency is lower in one direction than the other. Let's say that the path Player #1 → Server → Player #2 takes 500ms, but Player #2 → Server → Player #1 takes only 300ms. Since the gamestate proceeds synchronously, we might expect, and it would seem fair, that both players would experience identical latency. Also, since both players usually play with low latency, in a cross-region match they will both feel that there is high latency.
But suppose the game takes advantage of the asymmetry to try to give each player the best possible latency. Then Player #2's commands will take effect 300ms after they are issued, while Player #1's commands remain in the pipeline for 500ms. Even though both players perceive events happening at the same time, Player #2 will be able to react faster.
There are several reasons why such a situation might arise. Perhaps packets simply take asymmetric routes of different lengths. Alternatively, perhaps the minimum latency is the same in both directions, but for one direction there is greater variance. Then the game chooses a higher latency which is more reliably achievable for that direction.
If this were true, it might be exploited by a player who intentionally delays incoming packets from the server so that their opponent will experience higher latency.
2) The latency varies during the game. In BW, "lagging" was quite noticeable as the game stuttered when packets didn't arrive on time. Selecting a higher latency would often smooth things out. In SC2, this control has been taken away from the players and put into a black box. While the automatic system does take care of this scenario, it seems that there is another mechanism for smoothing over intermittent bumps.
Occasionally the game will freeze for one player while the other is apparently unaffected. When it resumes, the game must catch up to the present gamestate, like fast-forwarding through a replay. The game remains synchronized; it's just that one player was unable to properly control their forces for a moment. If the duration of the interruption is short enough, they may not even notice.
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Hopefully this will clear the minds of many TLs around here that are really upset that their heroes lost 'ONLY' because of lag.
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Well said, Jinro. Good to have the perspective of someone really experienced in all of this. I completely agree.
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but... but.. that means Koreans aren't better than foreigners...
+ Show Spoiler +
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On March 27 2011 09:48 CoFran wrote: If lag was such an issue for KR->US, I think korean teams could invest some of their income to get a business prioritized ISP with a good routing to US west and EU.
KT has MPLS for example, its probly not cheap but with 10ish Code A/Code S crushing thru foreigners tournaments 24/7, its peanuts to pay.
It's an issue with the B.net servers, not their ISPs....
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SoCal8898 Posts
plus, lets face it..nestea's game 3..he was attacking thors and letting siege tanks in the red have a field day with his roaches. im no master's leaguer, but even i know that was sloppy play and had nothing to do with lag. plus, his roach speed was finishing as the big push was commencing..waaaay too late considering the amount of roaches he had on the field. and dont even get me started on the creep spread..
note that i am a HUGE nestea fan and this disappointed me greatly, but as a fan i recognize that this had everything to do with a few mistakes adding up to cause him to lose. such is life and starcraft. better luck next time. nestea fighting!
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Thanks Jinro you're definitely the right one to make this post having played all of these connections. If only someone could get this thread onto PlayXP and GOM...
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On March 27 2011 09:15 TheBJ wrote: qxc played amazing , and so did adel ( altough mvp wasnt at his best for sure ). Stop taking credit away from the players. Agreed. I would add Goody to that list as well though. Phenomenal play by the foreigners.
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Thank you Jinro. Good to hear something from someone with actual credibility.
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On March 27 2011 10:19 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 09:48 CoFran wrote: If lag was such an issue for KR->US, I think korean teams could invest some of their income to get a business prioritized ISP with a good routing to US west and EU.
KT has MPLS for example, its probly not cheap but with 10ish Code A/Code S crushing thru foreigners tournaments 24/7, its peanuts to pay. It's an issue with the B.net servers, not their ISPs....
what? how is it an issue with bnet servers?
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On March 27 2011 08:30 Liquid`Jinro wrote: I mean, I dont want to downplay the effects too much because when you are used to the game behaving one way and then having it behave another, everything is going to get thrown off, you will start missing depots etc... But my point is more that its possible to practice for this - I think - by playing more on the US server.
If events like this become the standard, we will probably see some better performances out of the Koreans if they take to practicing that way. How much better, its hard to say.
I guess you pretty much stated one of the problems there. I dunno if you have any real info about this but I don't think the koreans practiced on the NA server or EU server for this tourney?
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Blizzard should implement an option that allows players to choose if they want to have as close to the same ping at all times so that both have the same delay, this does bring with it a whole load of problems though but would probably make it "more fair", at least in some aspects. No idea if it's possible to implement such a thing though.
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On March 27 2011 09:42 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 09:33 kheldorin wrote: Then I don't understand how Ace was so consistent in IEM. He was undefeated in group stages and went on to win. If the game and the players are as volatile as you seem to think it is, shouldn't he have lost more games?
If Koreans are consistently better in a LAN setting while the rest are better when playing the in these higher-lagged conditions, then the only conclusion one can derive is that lag does play a huge factor.
. By this logic, Ace should have gone undefeated in GSL too and would've had no problem qualifying in the past. He hit a good stretch of play during that weekend, likewise oGs TOP hit a bad stretch when he went to Dreamhack and fizzled out with his teammate.
Ace loss twice in a row in GSL. It's consistent and not volatile. It just furthers proves my point.
You're saying everyone has equal skill. What matters is their form? And it's just a coincidence their form sucks when playing in an online tournament but not in a LAN tournament? The thing is audiences aren't interested in knowing about a players' form but how good they actually are. As they say "Form is temporary but class is permanent".
IMO, oGs Top didn't hit a bad stretch, he was outplayed.
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On March 27 2011 10:19 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 09:48 CoFran wrote: If lag was such an issue for KR->US, I think korean teams could invest some of their income to get a business prioritized ISP with a good routing to US west and EU.
KT has MPLS for example, its probly not cheap but with 10ish Code A/Code S crushing thru foreigners tournaments 24/7, its peanuts to pay. It's an issue with the B.net servers, not their ISPs.... O_O pretty sure it's an ISP related problem. A korean posted that most korean ISPs are routed through Japan in order to get to US, but some are routed through China instead, so they'd probably have a better connection.
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Jinro, such a well spoken and cheerful guy, lycka till!
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kheldorin: are you honestly arguing that your daily form doesn't have an influence on how you play?
Ace had a killer streak going during IEM. He played in top form, and won convincingly. But during his GSL matches he didn't play nearly as good and as a result he lost. Frankly a single tournament is never enough to really judge how good a player is. We've had a ton of players who won a single event while they were in top form and then fizzled out, the true masters are those who can achieve similar results consistently. So far we haven't had a single player achieve that, the only one who comes close has been MC, but frankly even he has only played at his best for 4 months now and in that period he also dropped some key games.
Regarding your point about audiences being interested only in true skills compared to daily performance, i'd really like to know what you are thinking of. Do you ever watch any sport at all? Pretty much all you can see as an audience is how good they are playing at that specific day, nothing more nothing less. The decision how good someone really is (as you phrased it) is always done over a longish period of time instead of a single event.
Remember the worldcup where zidane made a really stupid mistake in the final and got thrown out of the game. If you go by "class" he'd still be a top player, but if you go by "form" then his form cost his team the game (debatable), so for almost any sport audience the form while they are playing is far more interesting than some theories about who is better on paper.
(edit) regarding the bnet servers being an issue, the server is exactly the same for both players, the only difference is their routing to the server. Honestly that is not a problem you can blame on Blizzard.
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On March 26 2011 16:08 oGsMC wrote via twitter: today TSL My gaming MInd Shock! i think Korean progamer better than forienger progamers but today i played FX Open & seeing TSL forienger progamers rank upgrade.. i need practice ^^ I don't see MC blaming things on lag, for what it's worth.
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so... foreigners ARE better than koreans???
thanks for the post jinro :D:D
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Its kinda stupid the community REQUIRES such an obvious post from Jinro before anyone can start thinking clearly again..
the game lagged, sure.. but did it change the outcome of the game? No. They just played bad. The koreans who won, played good. End of story really.
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Is it possible that the lag from the oGs house is less severe than from other team houses, perhaps using other ISP's?
I mean, I'm watching oGsZenio and oGsSuperNova play pretty well in the FXOpen, whereas MVP and MKP are microing their units on the NA server like they're playing SC2 for the first time.
Would the latency you (Jinro) experienced playing against Morrow in the TSL explain MVP's inability to kite slow zealots with marauders or probes with reapers? Or Genius throwing down forcefields seconds after the army he's trying to trap has already retreated?
MVP's micro against Adelscott was SO bad (as in legitimately not even diamond level) that it looked more like "it's impossible to control my units" than "I'm playing with a slightly higher latency than usual."
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It seems that Blizzard should be able to equalize lag btw EU and NA as compared to btw KR and NA. If they use a server in California to host the game, it is about equidistant from Seoul and mainland Europe (Seoul to LA is 5956 miles and Paris to LA is 5661 miles, so there is minimal distance difference to affect signal travel time). If they used a server on the East Coast of the US the signal travel time would be drastically different- perhaps that is part of the problem? (I realize there are a million other variables, router delays, etc).
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I'm going to get banned again, but this post is worth it. I love jinro and am a huge fan, but jinro knows what effect lag has on the game as evidenced when he played vs select in the gcpl. These are the jinro quotes after that game, when lag wasn't as bad as it was pre earthquake. Jinro doesn't know how bad the lag was for these players, since he wasn't actually sitting with them when they played, but does know the frustration it causes to himself to deal with lag.
Also tyler knows how lag effects the game as well cause shortly after the earth quake he was playing on korean server. He was in a base trade with a zerg and lost and then even he acknowledged that the lag was terrible and the reason he lost.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=28#548
On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke --
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#564
On February 04 2011 16:19 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Uhm, he played fine of course? Its not like I went into either game expecting anything else. Select played great, but its fucking annoying to play vs the way he plays when it lags this much. Its like, in perfect situations his playstyle is annoying to deal with, then you add lag and it makes you want to kill yourself.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#574
On February 04 2011 16:30 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:27 Ezze wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Ouch man. But yea I kind of agree. I didn't see any lag issues in the first game. I would probably give some credit to SeleCT there Jinro instead of blaming the loss on lag. Lol, why do you think it took THREE scans to kill 1 banshee in the first game? That doesnt mean I think they are bad, but theres just no way Im going to beat a player who is as good as me in this lag -- Im not gonna lie and say "oh the lag was fine", that doesnt mean they didnt play good and might very well have won anyways.I can also mention that a big reason I won game 1 was because my hellions luckboxed and saw his dropship going out. Making excuses sucks, it makes you look terrible but I m too frustrated to not bring it up. Yes, I knew it was gonna lag when I agreed to play but that doesnt change anything about how you feel after games like these.
User was banned for this post.
Mod note: he wasn't banned for the criticism, he's banned for stating he will be banned. Anytime a user "martyrs" he is automatically banned.
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On March 27 2011 10:47 Tula wrote: kheldorin: are you honestly arguing that your daily form doesn't have an influence on how you play?
Ace had a killer streak going during IEM. He played in top form, and won convincingly. But during his GSL matches he didn't play nearly as good and as a result he lost. Frankly a single tournament is never enough to really judge how good a player is. We've had a ton of players who won a single event while they were in top form and then fizzled out, the true masters are those who can achieve similar results consistently. So far we haven't had a single player achieve that, the only one who comes close has been MC, but frankly even he has only played at his best for 4 months now and in that period he also dropped some key games.
Regarding your point about audiences being interested only in true skills compared to daily performance, i'd really like to know what you are thinking of. Do you ever watch any sport at all? Pretty much all you can see as an audience is how good they are playing at that specific day, nothing more nothing less. The decision how good someone really is (as you phrased it) is always done over a longish period of time instead of a single event.
Remember the worldcup where zidane made a really stupid mistake in the final and got thrown out of the game. If you go by "class" he'd still be a top player, but if you go by "form" then his form cost his team the game (debatable), so for almost any sport audience the form while they are playing is far more interesting than some theories about who is better on paper.
(edit) regarding the bnet servers being an issue, the server is exactly the same for both players, the only difference is their routing to the server. Honestly that is not a problem you can blame on Blizzard.
Of course form matters. But people do not care about that. They care about skills.No audiences are interested in a 1-hit wonder. They want to know who is a better player not who is a better player on 26 March 2011. Which is why saying that players are volatile and games are volatile isn't really good for the game. If a game is really volatile, no matter how many tournaments are held, good players cannot be distinguished from each other and that would really suck.
The stupid mistake that Zidane did wasn't even skill-related. He was on form on that day. With regards to skill, he clearly showed it consistently.
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On March 27 2011 11:03 Maurader wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm going to get banned again, but this post is worth it. I love jinro and am a huge fan, but jinro knows what effect lag has on the game as evidenced when he played vs select in the gcpl. These are the jinro quotes after that game, when lag wasn't as bad as it was pre earthquake. Jinro doesn't know how bad the lag was for these players, but does know the frustration it causes to himself to deal with lag. Also tyler knows how lag effects the game as well cause shortly after the earth quake he was playing on korean server. He was in a base trade with a zerg and lost and then even he acknowledged that the lag was terrible and the reason he lost. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=28#548On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#564On February 04 2011 16:19 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Uhm, he played fine of course? Its not like I went into either game expecting anything else. Select played great, but its fucking annoying to play vs the way he plays when it lags this much. Its like, in perfect situations his playstyle is annoying to deal with, then you add lag and it makes you want to kill yourself. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#574On February 04 2011 16:30 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:27 Ezze wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Ouch man. But yea I kind of agree. I didn't see any lag issues in the first game. I would probably give some credit to SeleCT there Jinro instead of blaming the loss on lag. Lol, why do you think it took THREE scans to kill 1 banshee in the first game? That doesnt mean I think they are bad, but theres just no way Im going to beat a player who is as good as me in this lag -- Im not gonna lie and say "oh the lag was fine", that doesnt mean they didnt play good and might very well have won anyways.I can also mention that a big reason I won game 1 was because my hellions luckboxed and saw his dropship going out. Making excuses sucks, it makes you look terrible but I m too frustrated to not bring it up. Yes, I knew it was gonna lag when I agreed to play but that doesnt change anything about how you feel after games like these.
he said:
No, you go "FUck this MOTHER FUCKING LAG, and FUCK this stupid server". And its natural, but keep this in mind when someone complains about lag. It probably did lag, and it probably did affect him a little, but as someone who at first felt that playing on the US was a complete joke, and now think its "a little annoying but mostly not game deciding"... Well, its just going to feel a lot worse than it actually was.
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Edit: Beaten to it, shouldn't have gotten baited in the first place, sleep mmm.
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On March 27 2011 11:10 vdale wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 11:03 Maurader wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm going to get banned again, but this post is worth it. I love jinro and am a huge fan, but jinro knows what effect lag has on the game as evidenced when he played vs select in the gcpl. These are the jinro quotes after that game, when lag wasn't as bad as it was pre earthquake. Jinro doesn't know how bad the lag was for these players, but does know the frustration it causes to himself to deal with lag. Also tyler knows how lag effects the game as well cause shortly after the earth quake he was playing on korean server. He was in a base trade with a zerg and lost and then even he acknowledged that the lag was terrible and the reason he lost. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=28#548On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#564On February 04 2011 16:19 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Uhm, he played fine of course? Its not like I went into either game expecting anything else. Select played great, but its fucking annoying to play vs the way he plays when it lags this much. Its like, in perfect situations his playstyle is annoying to deal with, then you add lag and it makes you want to kill yourself. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#574On February 04 2011 16:30 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:27 Ezze wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Ouch man. But yea I kind of agree. I didn't see any lag issues in the first game. I would probably give some credit to SeleCT there Jinro instead of blaming the loss on lag. Lol, why do you think it took THREE scans to kill 1 banshee in the first game? That doesnt mean I think they are bad, but theres just no way Im going to beat a player who is as good as me in this lag -- Im not gonna lie and say "oh the lag was fine", that doesnt mean they didnt play good and might very well have won anyways.I can also mention that a big reason I won game 1 was because my hellions luckboxed and saw his dropship going out. Making excuses sucks, it makes you look terrible but I m too frustrated to not bring it up. Yes, I knew it was gonna lag when I agreed to play but that doesnt change anything about how you feel after games like these. he said: Show nested quote +No, you go "FUck this MOTHER FUCKING LAG, and FUCK this stupid server". And its natural, but keep this in mind when someone complains about lag. It probably did lag, and it probably did affect him a little, but as someone who at first felt that playing on the US was a complete joke, and now think its "a little annoying but mostly not game deciding"... Well, its just going to feel a lot worse than it actually was.
Well good, at least jinro acknowledged how much lag does play a role and doesn't brush it off lightly. I just wasted my ban for nothing then. However, I would like jinro's opinion on lag pre earthquake and post earthquake. As I understand it, the lag was bearable pre earthquake, but has been bad post earthquake and is noticeably laggier.
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My interpretation of lag; can someone please correct me if this is incorrect: A server somewhere in the designated region (North America somewhere) hosts the game. So, the game is happening on the server computer. Suppose the European player has 150ms lag and the Korean 300ms lag. When something happens in the game, the European player sees it 150ms later and the Korean player 300ms later. The thing still happened 150ms and 300ms before, respectively. Assume the European player responds (hits their keyboard) in 500ms after he sees the thing happen on his screen and the Korean responds (hits keyboard) in 500ms after he sees the thing happen on his screen. The response takes an additional 150ms to get back to the server from the European player and an additional 300ms to get back to the server from the Korean player. So, it took 800ms for the computer running the game (the server) to get the European's response and 1100ms for the computer running the game to get the Korean's response. Is this an accurate description of how the server hosting works and what is going on with lag?
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I just got ridiculously spoiled on TSL
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You can't just say players have to get used to the lag and its the player's fault for not practicing with the latency. The latency is still going to affect how long it takes for a unit to move after its been given an order. For example, even if a player was accustomed to the latency, if a reaper suddenly appeared and started attacking the probes, the probes would be under fire for that much longer since even if the Protoss player pulled the probes there would still be a long delay before they start running away.
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nestea played really shitty, and you can´t blame getting roach speed just 400 years late in game somewhat of thing about latency. even the superlong burrowed roaches on shakuras, that was so stupid.... it felt like he was nervous....
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So Jinro's point is that if the Koreans took the time to play lots of practice games on the NA server, they would have been better prepared. Right?
It's not an unfair point, but damn. Sounds like a lot of work for guys whose main job is to be able to smoke the best of the best on the Korean server, where they have little to no lag. It'd be so hard for them to have to switch modes like that.
I say have the Koreans sit out until Bnet2 netcode gets fixed. It's just flat-out unfair to everyone -- the winners don't get their dues, and the losers lose face unjustifiably. The forums erupt in crying and TSL administrators are pissed coz they put so much work into something that people are saying lacks legitimacy.
Were the games today good? I'm not sure. I definitely wasn't impressed by the Koreans, but then the Koreans didn't play like they do on the GSL. They were slow, unresponsive, and wasted tons and tons and tons of units.
So were the games today good? Maybe. Depends on whether you were expecting a stand-up match or a spectacle. Qxc played awesome. Genius had lag. Is that fun to watch? Guess it depends on what you want.
Next time, let's leave the Koreans out.
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On March 27 2011 11:30 BigMaiko wrote: nestea played really shitty, and you can´t blame getting roach speed just 400 years late in game somewhat of thing about latency. even the superlong burrowed roaches on shakuras, that was so stupid.... it felt like he was nervous.... You mean the burrowed roaches that kept going and going after Goody's tanks open-fired on them?
The burrowed roaches that, after being fired upon, kept going towards the tanks for another couple of volleys?
The burrowed roaches that then, upon making it near the tanks and hellions, suddenly turned around to run and kept being fired on?
The ~40 food of burrowed roaches that died without killing anything at all? Without even unburrowing?
Yeah... You don't think that was latency?
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On March 27 2011 11:30 suejak wrote:
Next time, let's leave the Koreans out.
This. It just brings up drama and kills the legitimacy of the tournament. Any hints of internet issues will bring up problems in an online tournament.
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Lag doesn't occur in a vacuum. Sometimes if you are used to playing a certain way and something changes that, it can affect you psychologically.
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I'm very curious to all the latency issues here. I want to ask whether the TSL ever tried to use the SEA server for KR-EU matches instead of NA.
and also how bad is the latency for EU-SEA and KR-SEA?
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If the game was being hosted by a server in California, about 5500 miles from Europe and 5500 miles from Seoul, and the server needs to send the updated game scenario to the player and the players response needs to get back to the esrver (so lag represents time for the signal to get there plus time to send signal back), then the latency due to the distance is about 59 msec. [(5500 miles / speed of light)*2]. Even if the players played on the EU server, and the connection between Seoul and the EU had to run along this route, 5500 miles x 2, the latency due to the distance would only be 120 msec. If the latencies are really in the 300s or 400s between Korea and EU, most of it must be routers, pathing, delays, or what not along the way, not intrinsic to the distance between Korea and EU.
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sigh saw highlighted post by jinro with no spoiler tags I was debating with myself whether it would be safe to check this out and I came to the wrong conclusion, lesson learned I guess.
Very informative post though will help with context when I watch the games I hope. Had been wondering about the lag between kr-na/eu and it's really good to hear from someone in the know and it doesn't hurt when it's a two time gsl semifinalist talking about it
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Jinro smacking down mad truths on nerds everywhere.
Good thread to have spotlighted, now hopefully we'll get less latency discussions/derailments in the LR's!
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I certainly feel the series with goody and nestea came down to decision making.
Series spoiler follows + Show Spoiler + After the 1st game, which goody lost with mech, nestea tries to play extremely greedy the next 2 games. Goody adjusted accordingly and punished him, attacking with hellion marine in game 2 and following it up with banshees, and more marine hellion after his 1st attack was so successful. The next game he did a much earlier attack than one would expect from mech, sieging nesteas natural from the low ground. Then backstabbing and craziness followed, which goody got the better end of. I noticed that when nestea had all those roaches in goody's main, he went for his scv's with all of them, instead of just using 2 or 3 to kill scv's while camping goody's production structures with the rest of the roaches. This decision allowed goody to get tanks out and put them in siege mode to eventually end the roach raid on his main.
Anyway, I think anyone could agree this series was clearly a battle of decisions. (and a little bit of insight by goody, he seemed to know nestea would play greedy after the 1st game)
I'm sure however there are many Korean fans in an uproar over the results. Seeing their GSL champions devastated at the hands of foreigners.
BTW, I feel in large part that Korean superiority in SC2, has been an assumption based on BW's history. Clearly, if a small skill gap exists, it can be overcome with preparation. Korean SC2 players are nowhere near the seemingly invincible play, compared to foreigners, they possessed in BW.
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I'm glad to read the opinion of someone with your experience on this subject. And I couldn't agree more about it. Lag seemed to take the best of this players in some situations, but it really looks that it could be addressed with proper practice given the scenario, and there was some huge blunders that cannot be tagged as Lag Issues. I hope that this round will serve as a precedent so the players involved in this kind of cross region matches take the necessary measures to minimize the impact of lag in their gameplay.
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Practicing with lag will only minimize the disadvantage. I mean, imagine playing with a much slower reaction time, you're obviously not gonna be playing at your best. When I saw Nestea losing so many of his units because he decided to pull back after he was already halfway across to the siege tanks I thought that must be due to the lag, not because Nestea is indecisive, and that's really something that wouldn't be fixed through practice.
Just by going off of what some koreans have had to say and what happened to boxer (disconnecting out of no where in game 1) I'd say that the Japanese earthquake has made it much worse.
It's easy to say with hindsight bias that "oh, he made terrible decisions" but well, it wouldn't have looked so terrible if you're able to micro your army and target down siege tanks and such.
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Thanks for this info, I wasn't awake to watch it and this can sort of explain the losses (a bit)
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On March 27 2011 09:42 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 09:33 kheldorin wrote: Then I don't understand how Ace was so consistent in IEM. He was undefeated in group stages and went on to win. If the game and the players are as volatile as you seem to think it is, shouldn't he have lost more games?
If Koreans are consistently better in a LAN setting while the rest are better when playing the in these higher-lagged conditions, then the only conclusion one can derive is that lag does play a huge factor.
. By this logic, Ace should have gone undefeated in GSL too and would've had no problem qualifying in the past. He hit a good stretch of play during that weekend, likewise oGs TOP hit a bad stretch when he went to Dreamhack and fizzled out with his teammate. ogstop still got top 4 at dreamhack thats pretty good, but obviously he was on even footing with those players, at the time he wasnt even in the gsl though and i think hes improved drastically since dreamhack. just my 2 cents
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this will clear up some speculations
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Thanks for clearing it up jinro, I think its really frusterating for the korean players, you were very frusterated after your games in the GCPL and im sure the koreans felt the same way, after you get into that frusterated state of mind during a game its pretty hard to play your best id say.
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I am really glad Jinro made this post. Personally I feel like the spectating experience of the TSL is being cheapened by all these whiners making excuses and blaming lag, it is really frustrating to open the LR thread to see what other people thought about the great games I just watched to see pages and pages of people whining about lag.
As someone who has played on KR from NA and EU from NA when I was visiting my old high school buddy who had a KR and NA account, I can say that the latency is noticable but it is not something that cannot be overcome and it is fairly minor if you get used to it, after 20-30 ladder games I was pretty much used to the input delay. Liquid`Tyler said the same thing on SOTG when talking about KR server lag when he was playing from NA and he felt like it was something he would just have to get used to and that it would also be helpful to get used to playing under "laggy" conditions for the sake of online tournaments or LANs where it might be lagging due to server issues
Personally I feel that it is incredibly unprofessional of the Korean players to not have practiced on the NA server to get used to the latency. As professional gamers it is their job to get used to these kind of things and TSL even warned them of this and offered them accounts to get used to it but it seems like they completely neglected it. As professional gamers they should really focus on their condition, it is akin to making sure your keyboard/mouse/monitor setup and your hotkeys/computer settings at LANs are sorted out instead of just turning up and failing then blaming that.
If people want to simulate the experience for themselves they should start a "Single player vs A.I." game and compare the input delay to what they are used to in multiplayer, everything seems a lot quicker and multiplayer seems completely laggy but it isn't very noticable since you are used to it
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Didn't Boxer's wife tweet that he was playing 2000 ms (2 second delay)? I never saw the tweet myself, but I've heard it been referenced a few times...
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Braavos36362 Posts
On March 27 2011 13:13 Gorlin wrote: Didn't Boxer's wife tweet that he was playing 2000 ms (2 second delay)? I never saw the tweet myself, but I've heard it been referenced a few times... Yes Boxer's wife tweeted that and yes it was a complete exaggeration.
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I agree that Koreans probably should have practiced more under the TSL conditions if they wanted to do well, but that doesn't change the fact the conditions were not equal. Theoretically, when you play starcraft, you want to play it in the most pure, unaltered environment possible, which means either on LAN which is impossible, or at least on the same server, KR being a great one for good, smooth play considering how good Korean internet is.
My idea is that Koreans approached the TSL as, "Eh, I want to focus mainly on my play on the Korean server, but it'll be a fun experience to interact with the foreign community and play in a foreign tournament" and mainly practiced on that, since practicing for completely different conditions for just one tournament simply isn't the most efficient thing to do. They probably wanted to focus most on the GSL. Splitting up practice conditions, considering the extent to which they practice, just doesn't seem that efficient.
Also, no matter how good or bad the lag was, does anyone know why MVP's kiting was so damn slow? It was painful to watch.
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Jinro bossing it up as always. Hopefully some of the arguing will die down. I'm not naive enough to think that it will all die down though...
I guarantee that after at least one game tomorrow, someone will say "lol, can't blame x on lag, lolol".
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On March 27 2011 13:16 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 13:13 Gorlin wrote: Didn't Boxer's wife tweet that he was playing 2000 ms (2 second delay)? I never saw the tweet myself, but I've heard it been referenced a few times... Yes Boxer's wife tweeted that and yes it was a complete exaggeration. Since he still won i dont know why they would exagerate it that much maybe slightly.
Edit: at one point it actually did seem like a 2 second delay when boxers marauders were just sitting there getting chopped up by zealots, especially because he is known for his impeccable micro regardless of the flaws in his mechanics. I defenetly dont think he played the whole game with a 2 second delay but there could have easily been 2000 ms spikes, thats what the most detrimental lag usually is , sharp spikes.
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Jinro with words of wisdom, people should be forced to read this. jinro fighting
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It's good to hear words regarding the latency from the one and only Jinro. Makes the analysis really worth something rather than coming from some random guy who is a fan boy
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On March 27 2011 13:24 cheesemaster wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 13:16 Hot_Bid wrote:On March 27 2011 13:13 Gorlin wrote: Didn't Boxer's wife tweet that he was playing 2000 ms (2 second delay)? I never saw the tweet myself, but I've heard it been referenced a few times... Yes Boxer's wife tweeted that and yes it was a complete exaggeration. Since he still won i dont know why they would exagerate it that much maybe slightly. Edit: at one point it actually did seem like a 2 second delay when boxers marauders were just sitting there getting chopped up by zealots, especially because he is known for his impeccable micro regardless of the flaws in his mechanics. I defenetly dont think he played the whole game with a 2 second delay but there could have easily been 2000 ms spikes, thats what the most detrimental lag usually is , sharp spikes.
Maybe he simply didn't watch? It was definitely not 2 seconds delay.
And why they would exaggerate it? Because everybody does it, nobody is saying "I have 0,4 seconds delay". I mean I heard Kas saying that he had like 3 seconds delay on the US server, that's also an exaggeration.
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It's really something to appreciate when someone distinguished says something unbiased and open minded/intelligent. Why? Because it gives the mob a credible source for thought. I have my own personal feelings, but i can honestly say IMO Jinro wouldn't be biased because he is a member of TL trying to downplay and issue, rather, giving both sides from his personal, professional, perspective. These kind of things are what really need to be highlighted more often in a "Volatile game" and hence a "volatile community".
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On March 27 2011 11:03 Maurader wrote:I'm going to get banned again, but this post is worth it. I love jinro and am a huge fan, but jinro knows what effect lag has on the game as evidenced when he played vs select in the gcpl. These are the jinro quotes after that game, when lag wasn't as bad as it was pre earthquake. Jinro doesn't know how bad the lag was for these players, since he wasn't actually sitting with them when they played, but does know the frustration it causes to himself to deal with lag. Also tyler knows how lag effects the game as well cause shortly after the earth quake he was playing on korean server. He was in a base trade with a zerg and lost and then even he acknowledged that the lag was terrible and the reason he lost. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=28#548Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#564Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:19 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Uhm, he played fine of course? Its not like I went into either game expecting anything else. Select played great, but its fucking annoying to play vs the way he plays when it lags this much. Its like, in perfect situations his playstyle is annoying to deal with, then you add lag and it makes you want to kill yourself. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#574Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:30 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 04 2011 16:27 Ezze wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Ouch man. But yea I kind of agree. I didn't see any lag issues in the first game. I would probably give some credit to SeleCT there Jinro instead of blaming the loss on lag. Lol, why do you think it took THREE scans to kill 1 banshee in the first game? That doesnt mean I think they are bad, but theres just no way Im going to beat a player who is as good as me in this lag -- Im not gonna lie and say "oh the lag was fine", that doesnt mean they didnt play good and might very well have won anyways.I can also mention that a big reason I won game 1 was because my hellions luckboxed and saw his dropship going out. Making excuses sucks, it makes you look terrible but I m too frustrated to not bring it up. Yes, I knew it was gonna lag when I agreed to play but that doesnt change anything about how you feel after games like these. User was banned for this post. Why is this guy banned? He simply quoted someone else's posts (which were not deemed ban-worthy, obviously). Confused here. Is TL so closed-minded that it doesn't want to hear anything unpleasant, even though it's presented in civil manners? Not that I think his post is most polite one nor agree with what message his post presumably intends to convey, but the free speech means nothing if you simply block what you don't want to hear.
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United States5162 Posts
On March 27 2011 13:55 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 11:03 Maurader wrote:I'm going to get banned again, but this post is worth it. I love jinro and am a huge fan, but jinro knows what effect lag has on the game as evidenced when he played vs select in the gcpl. These are the jinro quotes after that game, when lag wasn't as bad as it was pre earthquake. Jinro doesn't know how bad the lag was for these players, since he wasn't actually sitting with them when they played, but does know the frustration it causes to himself to deal with lag. Also tyler knows how lag effects the game as well cause shortly after the earth quake he was playing on korean server. He was in a base trade with a zerg and lost and then even he acknowledged that the lag was terrible and the reason he lost. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=28#548On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#564On February 04 2011 16:19 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Uhm, he played fine of course? Its not like I went into either game expecting anything else. Select played great, but its fucking annoying to play vs the way he plays when it lags this much. Its like, in perfect situations his playstyle is annoying to deal with, then you add lag and it makes you want to kill yourself. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#574On February 04 2011 16:30 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 04 2011 16:27 Ezze wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Ouch man. But yea I kind of agree. I didn't see any lag issues in the first game. I would probably give some credit to SeleCT there Jinro instead of blaming the loss on lag. Lol, why do you think it took THREE scans to kill 1 banshee in the first game? That doesnt mean I think they are bad, but theres just no way Im going to beat a player who is as good as me in this lag -- Im not gonna lie and say "oh the lag was fine", that doesnt mean they didnt play good and might very well have won anyways.I can also mention that a big reason I won game 1 was because my hellions luckboxed and saw his dropship going out. Making excuses sucks, it makes you look terrible but I m too frustrated to not bring it up. Yes, I knew it was gonna lag when I agreed to play but that doesnt change anything about how you feel after games like these. User was banned for this post. Why is this guy banned? He simply quoted someone else's posts (which were not deemed ban-worthy, obviously). Confused here. Is TL so closed-minded that it doesn't want to hear anything unpleasant, even though it's presented in civil manners? Not that I think his post is most polite one nor agree with what message his post presumably intends to convey, but the free speech means nothing if you simply block what you don't want to hear.
Martyring yourself - aka saying anything like 'this will get me banned' - will always get you banned here regardless of what else is in your post.
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The Ping from Asia to EU and US is really very high. And dont forget it depends a lot on the time the matches are played. I guess times were chosen which are suitable for both players, but actually thats the wrongest thing you can do, cause at those times the ping is extra high, due to more internet usage between those regions. Here in VN I notice the differences immensely. During daytime and evening i get a bitrate between 0.1 and 0.5 mbit/s to European and American servers. After 2 AM i get 3-4 mbit/s. The ping changes in a similar way. I know the broadband in South Korea might be of better quality than the one in Vietnam but the connection to other continents should behave in a similar way, as the same connections are used. I would rather play in the middle of the night, then having a ping twice as high as usual. And this change of latency depending on the daytime makes it really difficult to adjust to the latency. Maybe the Koreans DID practice on the NA servers, but just at another time, so the latency wasnt the same as when their games happened. It's really not constant at all.
It's really sad that this great tournament is overshadowed by these issues. Maybe in the next TSL you might wanna split brackets up serverwise and then have the top 8 or something meet for an offline finale.
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On March 27 2011 13:59 Myles wrote: Martyring yourself - aka saying anything like 'this will get me banned' - will always get you banned here regardless of what else is in your post. Interesting. Is it in the ToS (Term of Service) of this forum?
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On March 27 2011 10:57 cuppatea wrote: Is it possible that the lag from the oGs house is less severe than from other team houses, perhaps using other ISP's?
I mean, I'm watching oGsZenio and oGsSuperNova play pretty well in the FXOpen, whereas MVP and MKP are microing their units on the NA server like they're playing SC2 for the first time.
Would the latency you (Jinro) experienced playing against Morrow in the TSL explain MVP's inability to kite slow zealots with marauders or probes with reapers? Or Genius throwing down forcefields seconds after the army he's trying to trap has already retreated?
MVP's micro against Adelscott was SO bad (as in legitimately not even diamond level) that it looked more like "it's impossible to control my units" than "I'm playing with a slightly higher latency than usual." Jinro answered to this post, but not to the question. Would be interesting to hear a take on this from a knowledgable person who has seen the game!
MVP lost a marine to a probe surround. He then lost a reaper to a probe surround. He then let a stalker get away from a fight with a marine and marauder with concussive shells. Yes you heard that correctly, the units were standing still, fighting, and then the stalker just started to walk off without the marauder continuing to slow him, making it that much easier for Adel to defend his super ridiculous 15 nexus (not bashing the strat, risks can pay off, like we just saw in this game). Early units like these are crucial to the direction and outcome of the game when you have one player building his nexus before gateway on close (air) positions. Maybe I'm spoiled from Brood War, but it's simply very hard to imagine any progamer making mistakes like these. Yes, maybe the players did make bad calls and bad moves later on in the game, but that is not where stuff like this matters most (which is in the early game, like in MVP vs Adel 2).
Maybe MVP is that bad. And I absolutely agree that Koreans should have prepared better. But that is the only argument that somewhat alleviates the disappointment in this TSL day at all and it really doesn't do much for me (mainly because adjustment to lag is not part of Starcraft itself, but even more outside of it than meta game is). I was so hyped for this and being forced to doubt the legitimacy of the outcomes of the games just ruins it... I'm not saying that the winners are bad players. They played great and I'm a fan of seeing them succeed (and a fan of GoOdy even when he doesn't succeed : D), especially against 'mighty' Koreans. But that makes the doubt that any reasonably inquiring and sceptical person must have even more painful.
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Thanks for the post, it was pretty informative.
I was wondering though: how often do these top Koreans: MVP, Nestea, Boxer play in foreign tournaments? Jinro mentioned that when he first started playing cross-server, it was unbearable. I know that the foreigners have had tons of practice playing with lag because they've constantly switched back and forth between the NA and European servers, but not sure whether the Koreans have the same experience, since they predominantly (I know that some players like MC have been invited to foreign tournaments but haven't heard many other players doing it) play on the Korean server.
Oh well, it should be interesting to see how the foreigners do in the GSL world championships. That should give us a rough idea of the skill difference.
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TSL Day 3 Spoilers + Show Spoiler +The foreigners played well yesterday, and the koreans were obviously not at the top of their games - due to the lag or not, maybe? Some points to consider : MVP Game 1 : MVP died when his push failed. Adelscott had more bases running (although his macro was slipping hard it didn't matter when he's so far ahead) and better upgrades, but MVP held out for a decent duration. MVP should've died much earlier though = = MVP Game 2 : 15 nexus. I don't really know how viable that is but it worked in that game so well because MVP got his marine surrounded by probes uncharacteristically, and the same happened to the reaper that did almost nothing. Game went on and it became quite close, but MVP's bio control was sub-par, the kiting felt really weird. He probably wasn't used to microing in the delay I guess as Jinro mentioned, and then made some questionable decisions to go on to lose the game. Overall : I don't know man. MVP seems inconsistent against protoss, although his performances in the GSTL kinda show that he's not that terrible in the match up. Lag played a part but I think he might've lost anyway, but we should've seen a game 3... (I think he would've won game 2 if he could control his units without the latency.)
Genius Game 1 : Just didn't play as well as he should. Genius Game 2 : Forcefields kept missing. Most important moment was when qxc sniped his natural early game, which I think shouldn't have happened. Still, genius had the advantage for most of early-mid game, but failed to capitalise on it. I feel that he should've gone colossus instead of templar and would've won from there. qxc played brilliantly the rest of the game though, and denied him the win. Overall : qxc feels like the better player overall. genius is probably better in the early-mid game but qxc played absolutely phenomenal in both games with the expansion timings and multi-harass all game long. Like the Adelscott/MVP games, we should've seen a 3rd game because I think qxc shouldn't have been able to snipe the natural, which really helped him get back into the game.
Nestea Game 1 : Gave away free zerglings (bad) and roaches (lag?) but won with brood lords. Absolutely stomped goody. Nestea Game 2 : Nice all-in from goody. Caught Nestea by surprise. Nothing to see here. Nestea Game 3 : Really weird game. I don't know what he should've done but I guess splitting up the army didn't work well. Apparently Nestea also missed key upgrades. Overall : Nestea played poorly this series imo. One thing to consider though we didn't see any heavy mutalisk play from his games? It is because of the lag (can't micro them properly = cannot really abuse the mobility so might as well don't get too many of them or any at all) or the opponent's build (goody had many many scary thors). Goody has a nice build but I think his mechanics is kinda lacking compared to other players.
What I thought after seeing the games. I might've missed some things because it was like 6am when the games ended so pardon me if I wrote some absolute bullshit up there. ><
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Nobody can say that the games have thus far been played in equal conditions, and whether the lag can be overcome by practice or not isn't really the question. Goody, QXC, and Adelscott all played wonderfully. But the cloud of doubt is going to hang over those games and every game involving the KR-NA latency issue going forward, and that overall WILL cheapen the tournament results. It sucks, but there's nothing that can really be done about it.
TSL3 has been and will continue to be awesome, but it sadly won't give us an accurate indication of where foreigners stand relative to the Koreans. Which is unfortunate, because I bet you at least one out of QXC/Goody/Adelscott would've taken their series lag or no lag.
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Braavos36362 Posts
On March 27 2011 14:05 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 13:59 Myles wrote: Martyring yourself - aka saying anything like 'this will get me banned' - will always get you banned here regardless of what else is in your post. Interesting. Is it in the ToS (Term of Service) of this forum? Yes.
TL 10 Commandments
Don't be a drama queen martyr. TeamLiquid isn't colonial America or Tienanmen Square. You do not need to preemptively declare "I'm going to be banned for this..." or "ban me, I don't care." Our Moderators ban for good reasons. If they read someone acting like a martyr, they'll simply treat it as a request to be banned.
Martyring could be a huge problem for our mods because it's a lose-lose situation. If you ban martyrs it looks like they were right about your "biased" moderation. If you don't ban them then you encourage more martyring and passive-aggressive jabs at biased moderation. So we simply remove the choice, and state that every martyr is an auto-ban regardless of what they say.
If you offer constructive criticism we always try to receive it fairly.
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Ah. Thank you for the clarification, Hot_Bid. Greatly appreciated.
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On March 27 2011 11:32 suejak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 11:30 BigMaiko wrote: nestea played really shitty, and you can´t blame getting roach speed just 400 years late in game somewhat of thing about latency. even the superlong burrowed roaches on shakuras, that was so stupid.... it felt like he was nervous.... You mean the burrowed roaches that kept going and going after Goody's tanks open-fired on them? The burrowed roaches that, after being fired upon, kept going towards the tanks for another couple of volleys? The burrowed roaches that then, upon making it near the tanks and hellions, suddenly turned around to run and kept being fired on? The ~40 food of burrowed roaches that died without killing anything at all? Without even unburrowing? Yeah... You don't think that was latency?
Maybe lag played a small part in the reaction timing there, but as its been stated the "2 second delay" was wildly exaggerated, and that whole interchange with the roaches lasted like 8 seconds...... even with a latency issue it wasn't a very good move by NesTea.
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On March 27 2011 14:06 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 10:57 cuppatea wrote: Is it possible that the lag from the oGs house is less severe than from other team houses, perhaps using other ISP's?
I mean, I'm watching oGsZenio and oGsSuperNova play pretty well in the FXOpen, whereas MVP and MKP are microing their units on the NA server like they're playing SC2 for the first time.
Would the latency you (Jinro) experienced playing against Morrow in the TSL explain MVP's inability to kite slow zealots with marauders or probes with reapers? Or Genius throwing down forcefields seconds after the army he's trying to trap has already retreated?
MVP's micro against Adelscott was SO bad (as in legitimately not even diamond level) that it looked more like "it's impossible to control my units" than "I'm playing with a slightly higher latency than usual." Jinro answered to this post, but not to the question. Would be interesting to hear a take on this from a knowledgable person who has seen the game! MVP lost a marine to a probe surround. He then lost a reaper to a probe surround. He then let a stalker get away from a fight with a marine and marauder with concussive shells. Yes you heard that correctly, the units were standing still, fighting, and then the stalker just started to walk off without the marauder continuing to slow him, making it that much easier for Adel to defend his super ridiculous 15 nexus (not bashing the strat, risks can pay off, like we just saw in this game). Early units like these are crucial to the direction and outcome of the game when you have one player building his nexus before gateway on close (air) positions. Maybe I'm spoiled from Brood War, but it's simply very hard to imagine any progamer making mistakes like these. Yes, maybe the players did make bad calls and bad moves later on in the game, but that is not where stuff like this matters most (which is in the early game, like in MVP vs Adel 2). Maybe MVP is that bad. And I absolutely agree that Koreans should have prepared better. But that is the only argument that somewhat alleviates the disappointment in this TSL day at all and it really doesn't do much for me (mainly because adjustment to lag is not part of Starcraft itself, but even more outside of it than meta game is). I was so hyped for this and being forced to doubt the legitimacy of the outcomes of the games just ruins it... I'm not saying that the winners are bad players at all. They played very well and I'm a great fan of seeing them succeed (and a fan of GoOdy even when he doesn't succeed : D), especially against 'mighty' Koreans. But that makes the doubt that any reasonably inquiring and sceptical person must have even more painful. The marine surround I think can easily be explained with just bad luck. Marine was standing relatively close to the ramp(so probably no vision of incoming probes) and shooting the nexus, so if MVP was macroing at that time it means easy surround and nothing to do with lag. The others who knows.
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On March 27 2011 14:11 Resolve wrote:TSL Day 3 Spoilers + Show Spoiler +The foreigners played well yesterday, and the koreans were obviously not at the top of their games - due to the lag or not, maybe? Some points to consider : MVP Game 1 : MVP died when his push failed. Adelscott had more bases running (although his macro was slipping hard it didn't matter when he's so far ahead) and better upgrades, but MVP held out for a decent duration. MVP should've died much earlier though = = MVP Game 2 : 15 nexus. I don't really know how viable that is but it worked in that game so well because MVP got his marine surrounded by probes uncharacteristically, and the same happened to the reaper that did almost nothing. Game went on and it became quite close, but MVP's bio control was sub-par, the kiting felt really weird. He probably wasn't used to microing in the delay I guess as Jinro mentioned, and then made some questionable decisions to go on to lose the game. Overall : I don't know man. MVP seems inconsistent against protoss, although his performances in the GSTL kinda show that he's not that terrible in the match up. Lag played a part but I think he might've lost anyway, but we should've seen a game 3... (I think he would've won game 2 if he could control his units without the latency.)
Genius Game 1 : Just didn't play as well as he should. Genius Game 2 : Forcefields kept missing. Most important moment was when qxc sniped his natural early game, which I think shouldn't have happened. Still, genius had the advantage for most of early-mid game, but failed to capitalise on it. I feel that he should've gone colossus instead of templar and would've won from there. qxc played brilliantly the rest of the game though, and denied him the win. Overall : qxc feels like the better player overall. genius is probably better in the early-mid game but qxc played absolutely phenomenal in both games with the expansion timings and multi-harass all game long. Like the Adelscott/MVP games, we should've seen a 3rd game because I think qxc shouldn't have been able to snipe the natural, which really helped him get back into the game.
Nestea Game 1 : Gave away free zerglings (bad) and roaches (lag?) but won with brood lords. Absolutely stomped goody. Nestea Game 2 : Nice all-in from goody. Caught Nestea by surprise. Nothing to see here. Nestea Game 3 : Really weird game. I don't know what he should've done but I guess splitting up the army didn't work well. Apparently Nestea also missed key upgrades. Overall : Nestea played poorly this series imo. One thing to consider though we didn't see any heavy mutalisk play from his games? It is because of the lag (can't micro them properly = cannot really abuse the mobility so might as well don't get too many of them or any at all) or the opponent's build (goody had many many scary thors). Goody has a nice build but I think his mechanics is kinda lacking compared to other players.
What I thought after seeing the games. I might've missed some things because it was like 6am when the games ended so pardon me if I wrote some absolute bullshit up there. ><
The majority of the things that you addressed were due to lag: MVP's micro mistakes, Genius's lag force fields, Nestea's suicide units and failure to hold off Goody with micro.
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I agree that not being used to play with lag is probably a bigger factor than the actual lag. If koreans are getting almost lan latency on the KR server and they don't play events on other servers, there's no need to practice regularly on other servers, meaning when they do play it will feel very different.
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i guess one can never put latency concern aside especially when more and more cross region international online tournaments going on around the world.. it's just part of the game... every player who participate knew that beforehand.. eventually player that took it seriously and well-prepared will prevail.. there're simply no true indication of cross-region skill differences summarized from these online tourneys..
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Another thing is that Koreans, because of their highly disciplined practice regime know more refined play, precise timings and strategies that can require good micro in order to succeed or be viable, which might additionally increase their vulnerability to lag, although that has little to do with determining whether or not lag was an issue with things in the games whose course has already been set in stone.
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Braavos36362 Posts
Also, I think people need to take a look at the FXOpen results as well. Koreans finished 1-2 in the first one and are on pace for 2 out of top 3 in the second one. It's played on NA and had top foreigners in it as well. The Koreans winning in those tournaments (oGsHero, oGsTheStC, oGsSuperNova, oGsZenio) have all not won GSLs. Are these players better than MVP and Nestea? Or did they simply practice more and take the tournament on NA more seriously?
I think people overestimate "overall level" and underestimate how preparation and care can help an "underdog" in a bo3, especially when players have weeks to prepare. It's not that weird for upsets to happen in these conditions.
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On March 27 2011 14:32 Lobo2me wrote: I agree that not being used to play with lag is probably a bigger factor than the actual lag. If koreans are getting almost lan latency on the KR server and they don't play events on other servers, there's no need to practice regularly on other servers, meaning when they do play it will feel very different.
most probably that is what happening now.. at current state i think koreans will always prioritize GSL and their team coaches will not be happy their team members spending too much time practicing on NA server tryiing to adapt to the latency
however it is a good testing ground for them to understand and get know of the foreign scene.. vise-versa for the foreigner.. knowing that they can take on the koreans in all mean.. its a win-win situation for everyone
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On March 27 2011 14:47 Hot_Bid wrote: Also, I think people need to take a look at the FXOpen results as well. Koreans finished 1-2 in the first one and are on pace for 2 out of top 3 in the second one. It's played on NA and had top foreigners in it as well. The Koreans winning in those tournaments (oGsHero, oGsTheStC, oGsSuperNova, oGsZenio) have all not won GSLs. Are these players better than MVP and Nestea? Or did they simply practice more and take the tournament on NA more seriously?
I think people overestimate "overall level" and underestimate how preparation and care can help an "underdog" in a bo3, especially when players have weeks to prepare. It's not that weird for upsets to happen in these conditions. That may be so, but that doesn't explain every situation.
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So what you are saying is that anyone playing someone else on the same server is equal to LAN latency? So US on US = LAN?
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yeah lag played a factor. nestea in particular just played bad though (roaches by production facilities = checkmate usually, keeping burrowed roaches getting killed for like a whole minute...there is no minute lag, wasting lings to not even kill a bunker).
i still refuse to believe that MVP, even on an off day, would micro that poorly tho. i don't know much about genius, but i would guess he is better at FFs and storms.
BUT if they practiced on NA, they would've minimized it at least. also, protoss is best with lag as it's the most 1A-able race. get ready to see any remaining korean toss (is it just MC?) make those collosus balls that are so fun to watch
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On March 27 2011 14:53 GreEny K wrote: So what you are saying is that anyone playing someone else on the same server is equal to LAN latency? So US on US = LAN?
Read his post: He didn't say that. He mentioned only Korea. And Korea has one of the best internet infrastructure in the world
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thanks for the clarification jinro!!!
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i really do hope that practicing on NA, and infrastructure recovering from quake will be able to make these kinds of tournaments better in the future. otherwise, koreans won't want to play at much, and it will take a while for the foreign scene to get big enough that top tier koreans will be willing to fly out for matches.
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It doesn't matter whatever the agreement is. The whole thing is moot. This tournament is online, and we will never be able to make assumptions based on the results of the TSL. It's a WONDERFUL event, and I greatly thank Teamliquid.net for organizing such a high production show.
However in the context of declaring who is better, it's unfortunate. The high latency and packet loss exists. Yes blame it or not, assumptions cannot be made based on this. Perhaps for the next TSL, divide it into two regions, (or three even?) with EU, KR and NA eliminating each other in their region, and the best of each meeting at the end of the tournament. Play long series in a Home and Away format, instead of in a "both get screwed, one more than the other" format. That way, while it will still be largely subjective, it'll at least be more fair for each of the players.
Looking forward to the real even playing field events like MLG, IEM, and Dreamhack. Even the GSL World Championships actually _fly_ the competitors to an even LAN-like context.
</3
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Braavos36362 Posts
On March 27 2011 15:13 fer wrote: Even the GSL World Championships actually _fly_ the competitors to an even LAN-like context. Sad that most of the big names rejected the invitation in favour of TSL. What? Who rejected playing in GSL WC for TSL? In fact, three of the players still in the TSL (White-Ra, Morrow, Sen) are playing in the GSL WC.
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We're only talking about the Koreans here, is the connection so good for Europeans on NA? Is there no lag at all for the germans such as goody and hasu0bs !?
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i think lag is really bad
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On March 27 2011 15:19 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 15:13 fer wrote: Even the GSL World Championships actually _fly_ the competitors to an even LAN-like context. Sad that most of the big names rejected the invitation in favour of TSL. What? Who rejected playing in GSL WC for TSL? In fact, three of the players still in the TSL (White-Ra, Morrow, Sen) are playing in the GSL WC.
It was said that by GOM representatives that many of the invitations were declined, and some of the accepted later dropped. But you're right, I made a gross assumption there and I'll edit that out.
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I think the Koreans were over-confident and under-estimated the skill level of foreigners. Obviously they didn't prepare adequately for either their opponent or the latency on the NA server and predictably they got owned. Hot_Bid's argument about the FXOpen results (and IEM I will add) is pretty persuasive.
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Unfortunately, TSL3, an event that was meant to draw in global participation to grow the larger gaming community together, has largely served to create a huge wall separating us and them, foreigners and Koreans. This was obviously not intended by TeamLiquid staff who have all of the best intentions for running such a great event, but I think many if not most of us could learn from the language used by Tyler and Jinro. It's ok to be critical, but do so respectfully.
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Still dont agree with everything said here. Sure you can say that they can "get used to it" but if there are certain things lag doesn't allow for, then that means they are forced to essentially play a different style. It's hard enough to be the best at what you do, but to also have to learn another style is a bit much.
Additionally, margin of error is so much smaller for these guys then. If things like marine splits etc are already done with so much precision and low margin of error usually, "adjusting to lag" means we're pretty much expecting these guys to have even faster reaction time. lol.
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On March 27 2011 14:47 Hot_Bid wrote: Also, I think people need to take a look at the FXOpen results as well. Koreans finished 1-2 in the first one and are on pace for 2 out of top 3 in the second one. It's played on NA and had top foreigners in it as well. The Koreans winning in those tournaments (oGsHero, oGsTheStC, oGsSuperNova, oGsZenio) have all not won GSLs. Are these players better than MVP and Nestea? Or did they simply practice more and take the tournament on NA more seriously?
I think people overestimate "overall level" and underestimate how preparation and care can help an "underdog" in a bo3, especially when players have weeks to prepare. It's not that weird for upsets to happen in these conditions.
The original FXOpen happened pre-earthquake which has yet to be addressed in this thread. Latency went up after the earthquake and has been reported by several people, so using the first FX Open seems unfair comparison to now.
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i agree with what you said jinro. and i bet most of these koreans didn't try and play on the NA server and get used to the lag. so they were at a big disadvantage which they could've partly corrected by trying to get used to the lag, but they didn't.
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Well spoken and explained thoroughly JINRO IS AMAZING
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On March 27 2011 15:32 fer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 15:19 Hot_Bid wrote:On March 27 2011 15:13 fer wrote: Even the GSL World Championships actually _fly_ the competitors to an even LAN-like context. Sad that most of the big names rejected the invitation in favour of TSL. What? Who rejected playing in GSL WC for TSL? In fact, three of the players still in the TSL (White-Ra, Morrow, Sen) are playing in the GSL WC. It was said that by GOM representatives that many of the invitations were declined, and some of the accepted later dropped. But you're right, I made a gross assumption there and I'll edit that out.
I know several players declined invites for MLG Dallas, that's probably what you were looking for. Continued attendance for MLG is important for seeding and they are happening partially at the same time.
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On March 27 2011 14:47 Hot_Bid wrote: Also, I think people need to take a look at the FXOpen results as well. Koreans finished 1-2 in the first one and are on pace for 2 out of top 3 in the second one. It's played on NA and had top foreigners in it as well. The Koreans winning in those tournaments (oGsHero, oGsTheStC, oGsSuperNova, oGsZenio) have all not won GSLs. Are these players better than MVP and Nestea? Or did they simply practice more and take the tournament on NA more seriously?
I think people overestimate "overall level" and underestimate how preparation and care can help an "underdog" in a bo3, especially when players have weeks to prepare. It's not that weird for upsets to happen in these conditions.
oGs has a different ISP than IM/Prime then? It may be as simple as some korean ISP's have either faulty or misconfigured routers in their path between KR->US. Cause some of the micro problems last night were quite obviously not due to them being unprepared.
Overall it still cheapens the feeling of the tournament when the level of play just differs so much from the GSL. NASL will have the exact same problem if Blizzard/koreans doesn't sove this issue.
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Thanks for all the information Jinro and Tyler! Great write up!
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On March 27 2011 16:05 karpo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 14:47 Hot_Bid wrote: Also, I think people need to take a look at the FXOpen results as well. Koreans finished 1-2 in the first one and are on pace for 2 out of top 3 in the second one. It's played on NA and had top foreigners in it as well. The Koreans winning in those tournaments (oGsHero, oGsTheStC, oGsSuperNova, oGsZenio) have all not won GSLs. Are these players better than MVP and Nestea? Or did they simply practice more and take the tournament on NA more seriously?
I think people overestimate "overall level" and underestimate how preparation and care can help an "underdog" in a bo3, especially when players have weeks to prepare. It's not that weird for upsets to happen in these conditions. oGs has a different ISP than IM/Prime then? It may be as simple as some korean ISP's have either faulty or misconfigured routers in their path between KR->US. Cause some of the micro problems last night were quite obviously not due to them being unprepared. Overall it still cheapens the feeling of the tournament when the level of play just differs so much from the GSL. NASL will have the exact same problem if Blizzard/koreans doesn't sove this issue.
It does feel like a trend that oGs players are doing far better in these online tournaments than the other top SC2 teams, so it would make sense that oGs simply plays under better latency conditions than most other Korean teams. This is just speculation, though. I'm also curious as to whether Jinro is basing his post off of his experience with the oGs/TL house's internet (or is there a separate foreigner house? I forget, and if so, does it have the same internet setup as the oGs house?)
It would make sense, since I'm hearing many reports of oGs players stating that lag isn't bad at all, while some other people who have played in Korea not necessarily in the oGs house claim that the lag is pretty terrible. Everything seems to point to the oGs house simply having better internet than the other team houses, and it explains why non-oGs players like MVP had such bad micro in their games.
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For some reason I feel like a thread such as this is undermining the credibility of the tournament. At the same time, TL has always seemed to be willing to openly discuss these sorts of things and it's important to do so.
I know that personally my feelings and excitement for today's results feel betrayed. I honestly could have not felt better than I did after watching the events unfold. What I have gained from this thread though is a sense that there is a tangible level of latency experience cross servers that would be equivalent to walking on the moon.
Yet when I saw the tweet from oGsMC talking about foreigners 'leveling up' it meant SO much to me, and the sheer fact he made this comment before anything else he could have said will continue to be the memento I will latch on to.
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I don't think lag played an issue in Adelscott vs MVP. Adelscott's build was just a dominating factor by getting fast 3-3 upgrades on chargelot/blinkstalker and keeping enough sentrys with guardian shield that MVP's bio was doing nothing. FF's were not a major factor, EMP's could have been better practiced in the LAN setting, and although would have helped, was not a game breaker.
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On March 27 2011 16:18 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 16:05 karpo wrote:On March 27 2011 14:47 Hot_Bid wrote: Also, I think people need to take a look at the FXOpen results as well. Koreans finished 1-2 in the first one and are on pace for 2 out of top 3 in the second one. It's played on NA and had top foreigners in it as well. The Koreans winning in those tournaments (oGsHero, oGsTheStC, oGsSuperNova, oGsZenio) have all not won GSLs. Are these players better than MVP and Nestea? Or did they simply practice more and take the tournament on NA more seriously?
I think people overestimate "overall level" and underestimate how preparation and care can help an "underdog" in a bo3, especially when players have weeks to prepare. It's not that weird for upsets to happen in these conditions. oGs has a different ISP than IM/Prime then? It may be as simple as some korean ISP's have either faulty or misconfigured routers in their path between KR->US. Cause some of the micro problems last night were quite obviously not due to them being unprepared. Overall it still cheapens the feeling of the tournament when the level of play just differs so much from the GSL. NASL will have the exact same problem if Blizzard/koreans doesn't sove this issue. It does feel like a trend that oGs players are doing far better in these online tournaments than the other top SC2 teams, so it would make sense that oGs simply plays under better latency conditions than most other Korean teams. This is just speculation, though. I'm also curious as to whether Jinro is basing his post off of his experience with the oGs/TL house's internet (or is there a separate foreigner house? I forget, and if so, does it have the same internet setup as the oGs house?) It would make sense, since I'm hearing many reports of oGs players stating that lag isn't bad at all, while some other people who have played in Korea not necessarily in the oGs house claim that the lag is pretty terrible. Everything seems to point to the oGs house simply having better internet than the other team houses, and it explains why non-oGs players like MVP had such bad micro in their games.
I would think it's not just because oGs adapts better to the lag conditions, but also because they have people like Jinro, Huk, and Haypro, who can share information about the opponents they are facing.
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On March 27 2011 16:21 Zlasher wrote: I don't think lag played an issue in Adelscott vs MVP. Adelscott's build was just a dominating factor by getting fast 3-3 upgrades on chargelot/blinkstalker and keeping enough sentrys with guardian shield that MVP's bio was doing nothing. FF's were not a major factor, EMP's could have been better practiced in the LAN setting, and although would have helped, was not a game breaker.
I see alot of these posts and i always wonder, how can you know? High enough latency doesn't just affect intense micro. It messes with everything. It's kinda like saying that potential lag isn't a issue in a CS1.6 game cause one team had amazing aim. How can you determine that without actually having a even playing field.
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On March 27 2011 16:25 dookudooku wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 16:18 HolyArrow wrote:On March 27 2011 16:05 karpo wrote:On March 27 2011 14:47 Hot_Bid wrote: Also, I think people need to take a look at the FXOpen results as well. Koreans finished 1-2 in the first one and are on pace for 2 out of top 3 in the second one. It's played on NA and had top foreigners in it as well. The Koreans winning in those tournaments (oGsHero, oGsTheStC, oGsSuperNova, oGsZenio) have all not won GSLs. Are these players better than MVP and Nestea? Or did they simply practice more and take the tournament on NA more seriously?
I think people overestimate "overall level" and underestimate how preparation and care can help an "underdog" in a bo3, especially when players have weeks to prepare. It's not that weird for upsets to happen in these conditions. oGs has a different ISP than IM/Prime then? It may be as simple as some korean ISP's have either faulty or misconfigured routers in their path between KR->US. Cause some of the micro problems last night were quite obviously not due to them being unprepared. Overall it still cheapens the feeling of the tournament when the level of play just differs so much from the GSL. NASL will have the exact same problem if Blizzard/koreans doesn't sove this issue. It does feel like a trend that oGs players are doing far better in these online tournaments than the other top SC2 teams, so it would make sense that oGs simply plays under better latency conditions than most other Korean teams. This is just speculation, though. I'm also curious as to whether Jinro is basing his post off of his experience with the oGs/TL house's internet (or is there a separate foreigner house? I forget, and if so, does it have the same internet setup as the oGs house?) It would make sense, since I'm hearing many reports of oGs players stating that lag isn't bad at all, while some other people who have played in Korea not necessarily in the oGs house claim that the lag is pretty terrible. Everything seems to point to the oGs house simply having better internet than the other team houses, and it explains why non-oGs players like MVP had such bad micro in their games. I would think it's not just because oGs adapts better to the lag conditions, but also because they have people like Jinro, Huk, and Haypro, who can share information about the opponents they are facing.
Well it's not as much about adapting as it is just having a better connection, which is what I've read in this thread and elsewhere. But it's a good point that our foreigners probably help oGs players out with preparation.
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On March 27 2011 16:21 Zlasher wrote: I don't think lag played an issue in Adelscott vs MVP. Adelscott's build was just a dominating factor by getting fast 3-3 upgrades on chargelot/blinkstalker and keeping enough sentrys with guardian shield that MVP's bio was doing nothing. FF's were not a major factor, EMP's could have been better practiced in the LAN setting, and although would have helped, was not a game breaker.
Exactly. Lag made very little difference in the upsets we saw today.
I just think the invited Korean players have to realize that when hundreds of thousands have watched VODs of you playing, you better prepare to change up your style, and "counter" the "counter" to your style. They can't expect to cram 2-3 days of practice for the tournament, and win against a slightly inferior opponent that has been preparing builds for weeks against you.
Send Koreans into a 2-3 day tournament, and there's a really good chance that 50% of the semi-finalists will be Korean.
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Great post. I think lag played a lesser role and I blame preparations. I also liked that you mentioned how all the korean server pro's been doing lately because this is something I reflected over as well
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Thanks a ton Jinro. Exactly yours and Tyler's point was I trying to go through with in the other threads.
Lova ya <3
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Thanks for the info Jinro. I agree that we shouldn't expect Broodwar-esque domination from Koreans yet because there just hasn't been enough time yet for anyone(not just Koreans) to fully understand the game. However, I do really think that we can ALL agree that an ideal lag free LAN environment would be great for Starcraft. GSL provides that a little more because the players play on the same server whereas TSL does have this factor for the players to consider. Nonetheless, TSL games are still great.
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Thank you Jinro for the clarification. I think there's an aspect that's being ignored. Whether they won or lost due to the lag is irrelevant, but it did (as we've heard via twitter) annoy the players and it disappointed viewers who expected to see nice micro. I hope TL won't keep on making Tyleresque statements saying that it was the players fault for not practicing to play under lag and will search for new ways to reduce lag in future tournaments. (Paying for plane tickets to NA or Korea would solve the issue...)
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On March 27 2011 16:21 Zlasher wrote: I don't think lag played an issue in Adelscott vs MVP. Adelscott's build was just a dominating factor by getting fast 3-3 upgrades on chargelot/blinkstalker and keeping enough sentrys with guardian shield that MVP's bio was doing nothing. FF's were not a major factor, EMP's could have been better practiced in the LAN setting, and although would have helped, was not a game breaker.
I really haven't seen Korean protoss going fast double forge with mass gateway army either in the GSL or GTSL. MVP should have prepared better since many foreign protoss have been using this build recently and Tyler has been doing it for quite some time.
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On March 27 2011 17:55 space_yes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 16:21 Zlasher wrote: I don't think lag played an issue in Adelscott vs MVP. Adelscott's build was just a dominating factor by getting fast 3-3 upgrades on chargelot/blinkstalker and keeping enough sentrys with guardian shield that MVP's bio was doing nothing. FF's were not a major factor, EMP's could have been better practiced in the LAN setting, and although would have helped, was not a game breaker. I really haven't seen Korean protoss going fast double forge with mass gateway army either in the GSL or GTSL. MVP should have prepared better since many foreign protoss have been using this build recently and Tyler has been doing it for quite some time.
HongUnPrime seemingly inspired the current double forge builds, actually, although probably not Adelscott's since AFAIK he's been doing that shit since the beta.
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Yeeeeah or we let russians crack it and make it so that there is no lag. Just a suggestion.
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Germany2896 Posts
On March 27 2011 08:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote: When people talk about latency, it always brings to mind an article or quote I read somewhere, about how what matters the most is really not absolute latency, but rather stability. As long as you can get used to it, its not gonna be too bad for your game I think.
I assume you're referring to the article about the AoE netcode:
For RTS games, 250 milliseconds of command latency was not even noticed -- between 250 and 500 msec was very playable, and beyond 500 it started to be noticeable. It was also interesting to note that players developed a "game pace" and a mental expectation of the lag between when they clicked and when their unit responded. A consistent slower response was better than alternating between fast and slow command latency (say between 80 and 500 msec) -- in that case a consistent 500 msec command latency was playable, but one that varied was considered "jerky" and hard to use. 1500 Archers on a 28.8: Network Programming in Age of Empires and Beyond
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If I read between the lines correctly, it seems that the koreans just didn't trained at all for either the USA latency or their opponents, and they paid for it. They thought they would just roflstomp those "unknowns". And it's not like they couldn't do any research, I mean, there are hundreds of goody, adelscott or qxc public replays, in fact MVP, Nestea or Genius could even post on TL, or ask artosis about the style of their opponent, I'm sure people gladly answer them. They just didn't do their homework.
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Really good post Jinro!
The most frightening about this is that he has posted 30660 other posts, equally as good as this one!
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Anyone knows where are located the battlenet.us severs?
Cause the location makes a lot of difference to be honest.
I've been playing fast fps games (unreal tournament and quake 3) for many years, and fps players tend to cry about 20 ms difference. Anyway this is what I got from my fps experience of lag between EU - US.
UKers have the best connection to the US by far. With fastpath and nice routing they ping about ~80/90 ms in New york, ~120 ms in Chicago, ~130 in Dallas, ~200 Los Angeles. All the other nations in europe just get worse ping than this.
In particular:
- Spain has HORRIBLE connections especially when dealing with ping. I'm expected to add about 60/70 ms to all those numbers, when you have a top tier connection there. So QXC was probably lagging badly aswell.
- Connections in Romania/Ukraine tend to be even worse(latency wise, cause they're far away and have to cross multiple countries adding a lot of hops), more like adding 100 ms to those numbers.
I'm pretty sure that a Korean has a better ping than a romenian on a Californian server. So saying that microing for the koreans is impossible and for europeans is a walk in the park is just not true.
For me the problem is just one: Foreigners are used to play with lag even in their home servers, while koreans play in almost lan setting all the time. I think it's their fault they didn't prepare a little better for this.
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On March 27 2011 08:51 Liquid`Tyler wrote: For the most part, we saw players who were very unfamiliar with the latency and obviously experiencing a general feeling of discomfort and perhaps frustration that starts affecting all aspects of their play. Better preparation would have prevented this.
Also I know for a fact that TSL staff recommended to the Korean players that they practice a bit on NA to accustom themselves to the latency. They even offered guest accounts so that neither the Koreans nor their teams would have to purchase NA accounts (though I think it's clear that NA accounts would be a good investment for KR players).
Thanks Jinro & Tyler. If these players went on the server the first time and immediately played their game that's absolutely their own fault then. From the interview most of them didn't practice for it and still thought they are as ahead in SC2 as they were in BW (almost unbeatable). It's their own fault.
And if the lagg was unplayable as some people make it out to be they should have said something and then leave the tournament. Crying about it afterwards, I'm sorry I don't care. So far from what I read from the players through translations they give props to their opponent.
Like Hot_bid said, other koreans manage to play with it, probably due to preparation.
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Thanks for Jinro&Tyler for clarifications, also people need to stop using TSL (or any one tournament) as a absolute measure of skill. It has been discussed several times that tournaments do not necessary measure absolute skill, but just how good someone does in them. Jinro also said something along the lines "people give more credit to these kind of showmatches than they deserve (meaning the results)" when asked about being the best foreigner after beating Idra in bo7.
Sure TSL is an awesome tournament its great to have koreans there, its great to have upsets and its great to have positive drama & hype, but from korean point of view I suppose its more or less "just a good online tournament". Unlike for the foreigner underdogs its a highlight of their month to play Korean legends. Not to mention that foreigners can study their opponents very closely if they want, when koreans don't have that luxury due to language barrier.
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I find this pretty interesting as i live in the united states and play on the KR server. It feels like lan latency to me, but that is maybe because I'm used to it. Sometimes i login to US server to play with friends and it's all good.
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If we going to think of sc2 as a sport, we have to accept this. Weather condition, server condition, etc etc will have an effect on a game. This is the beauty of it. This is why football have home and away game.
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On March 27 2011 13:34 vdale wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 13:24 cheesemaster wrote:On March 27 2011 13:16 Hot_Bid wrote:On March 27 2011 13:13 Gorlin wrote: Didn't Boxer's wife tweet that he was playing 2000 ms (2 second delay)? I never saw the tweet myself, but I've heard it been referenced a few times... Yes Boxer's wife tweeted that and yes it was a complete exaggeration. Since he still won i dont know why they would exagerate it that much maybe slightly. Edit: at one point it actually did seem like a 2 second delay when boxers marauders were just sitting there getting chopped up by zealots, especially because he is known for his impeccable micro regardless of the flaws in his mechanics. I defenetly dont think he played the whole game with a 2 second delay but there could have easily been 2000 ms spikes, thats what the most detrimental lag usually is , sharp spikes. Maybe he simply didn't watch? It was definitely not 2 seconds delay. And why they would exaggerate it? Because everybody does it, nobody is saying "I have 0,4 seconds delay". I mean I heard Kas saying that he had like 3 seconds delay on the US server, that's also an exaggeration. Well maybe i was exaggegerating a bit by saying it seems like a 2 second delay but did you watch the game? because at that time he had literally nothing else going on he was microing his units then they simply stopped in place. All im saying is overall the lag could be fine but then a lag spike comes and you lose control for as second its happened to me many times playing on servers hosted in other countries and i dont think it would be any different in this situation, Its like genius's forcefields today you could tell there was at least a half second delay on some of them if not more, but at other times it seemed like there was little or no delay and it seemed fine, its not like the ping stays the exact same throughout the entire game their are dips and spikes during spikes i could imagine it would be really hard to micro for .5-1 second wich can make a huge difference depending on wich point in the game you are at, also as armies clash and more information is being sent is usually when lag spikes start so sometimes they can happen at crucial moments.
Alot of people are talking about the latency like its a stable thing and people are trying to prove points by saying " oh he micro'd fine in this situation so its okay" or "He must have been lagging terribly look at those forcefield" the latency jumps around and i doubt it would be bad for more than a few seconds if it was , im sure overall the average latency is fine and something that you could get used to , but spikes in the latency is something that will hurt the players game play the most.
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On March 27 2011 18:18 MasterOfChaos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 08:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote: When people talk about latency, it always brings to mind an article or quote I read somewhere, about how what matters the most is really not absolute latency, but rather stability. As long as you can get used to it, its not gonna be too bad for your game I think. I assume you're referring to the article about the AoE netcode: Show nested quote +For RTS games, 250 milliseconds of command latency was not even noticed -- between 250 and 500 msec was very playable, and beyond 500 it started to be noticeable. It was also interesting to note that players developed a "game pace" and a mental expectation of the lag between when they clicked and when their unit responded. A consistent slower response was better than alternating between fast and slow command latency (say between 80 and 500 msec) -- in that case a consistent 500 msec command latency was playable, but one that varied was considered "jerky" and hard to use. 1500 Archers on a 28.8: Network Programming in Age of Empires and Beyond
Damn it you beat me to it! I love that article.
I would also recommend, if anyone is actually interested in learning about how different genres of games communicate with each other (hopefully to shut people up who have been comparing SC2 latency to Counter Strike ?!?), read this article: (the Peer To Peer Lockstep model is relevant for SC2):
What every programmer needs to know about game networking
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A lot of it is confidence. As soon as things got a little bit tough for the Koreans it affected their mental state and you naturally start to question yourself when that happens. If you then get frustrated at the lag then it's effects compounds because you're not concentrating on the game.
I think you need to look at any suggestion of lag in the context of MC versus Ciara. The way MC controlled those Zealots in game1 when he stomped Ciara cross positions Metal off of 3 gateways! Simply incredible and watching that he didn't seem to be affected at all.
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Jinro, thank you so much for giving a statement like this! I still think most of the TSL Koreans didn't bother to prepare, because they were too sure of themselves
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On March 27 2011 18:48 pedduck wrote: If we going to think of sc2 as a sport, we have to accept this. Weather condition, server condition, etc etc will have an effect on a game. This is the beauty of it. This is why football have home and away game.
The problem is that one side is being punished more than the other side.
If it rains and the field is slippery, it's slippery for both sides.
Terrible analogy.
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Hilarious how can people say Koreans didn't prepare for this. "Hey guys, we're going to make you play under 400+ ms delay, hope you're ready!"
Just take the wins for what they are. No need to downplay disadvantages, or make unreasonable conjectures.
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On March 27 2011 08:32 r33k wrote: Please lock and stick this thread. Jinro's reputation coupled with the fact that he is in fact playing from KR is enough for his statement to be considered final.
Agreed!!
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On March 27 2011 18:56 Paradice wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 18:18 MasterOfChaos wrote:On March 27 2011 08:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote: When people talk about latency, it always brings to mind an article or quote I read somewhere, about how what matters the most is really not absolute latency, but rather stability. As long as you can get used to it, its not gonna be too bad for your game I think. I assume you're referring to the article about the AoE netcode: For RTS games, 250 milliseconds of command latency was not even noticed -- between 250 and 500 msec was very playable, and beyond 500 it started to be noticeable. It was also interesting to note that players developed a "game pace" and a mental expectation of the lag between when they clicked and when their unit responded. A consistent slower response was better than alternating between fast and slow command latency (say between 80 and 500 msec) -- in that case a consistent 500 msec command latency was playable, but one that varied was considered "jerky" and hard to use. 1500 Archers on a 28.8: Network Programming in Age of Empires and Beyond Damn it you beat me to it! I love that article. I would also recommend, if anyone is actually interested in learning about how different genres of games communicate with each other (hopefully to shut people up who have been comparing SC2 latency to Counter Strike ?!?), read this article: (the Peer To Peer Lockstep model is relevant for SC2): What every programmer needs to know about game networking
My SC2 vs CS1.6 analogy hold regardless of how the technology actually works. If one side experience lag, low fps, freezing or any other technical problem you can't possibly say that the other side would have won regardless.
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I totally agree with Jinro. The koreans knew that there might be latency problems and could have practised it had they felt that it was a problem. It is really great that they participated in TSL despite the possible problems with latency and the games have been amazingly good!! I think this has been a great opportunity for EU and KR to play against each other and I can't wait to watch more games.
gj team liquid!!
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On March 27 2011 11:03 Maurader wrote:I'm going to get banned again, but this post is worth it. I love jinro and am a huge fan, but jinro knows what effect lag has on the game as evidenced when he played vs select in the gcpl. These are the jinro quotes after that game, when lag wasn't as bad as it was pre earthquake. Jinro doesn't know how bad the lag was for these players, since he wasn't actually sitting with them when they played, but does know the frustration it causes to himself to deal with lag. Also tyler knows how lag effects the game as well cause shortly after the earth quake he was playing on korean server. He was in a base trade with a zerg and lost and then even he acknowledged that the lag was terrible and the reason he lost. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=28#548Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#564Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:19 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Uhm, he played fine of course? Its not like I went into either game expecting anything else. Select played great, but its fucking annoying to play vs the way he plays when it lags this much. Its like, in perfect situations his playstyle is annoying to deal with, then you add lag and it makes you want to kill yourself. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#574Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:30 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 04 2011 16:27 Ezze wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Ouch man. But yea I kind of agree. I didn't see any lag issues in the first game. I would probably give some credit to SeleCT there Jinro instead of blaming the loss on lag. Lol, why do you think it took THREE scans to kill 1 banshee in the first game? That doesnt mean I think they are bad, but theres just no way Im going to beat a player who is as good as me in this lag -- Im not gonna lie and say "oh the lag was fine", that doesnt mean they didnt play good and might very well have won anyways.I can also mention that a big reason I won game 1 was because my hellions luckboxed and saw his dropship going out. Making excuses sucks, it makes you look terrible but I m too frustrated to not bring it up. Yes, I knew it was gonna lag when I agreed to play but that doesnt change anything about how you feel after games like these. User was banned for this post.Mod note: he wasn't banned for the criticism, he's banned for stating he will be banned. Anytime a user "martyrs" he is automatically banned.
Very good point and I agree with you. I don't think that it's a coincident that Koreans win most LAN events they are invited to.
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Not taking anything away from the foreiners, from but these results fall pretty short of amazing in my opinion. and after watching all of the VOD's i can safetly say that MVP, Nestea and Genius all played completely and utterly terribly. making lots of mistakes, not scouting their opponents enough, not expanding at the right times, sometimes not at all, horrible micro in some situations. not upgrading. It was pretty bad.
What can we see from this? Wether or not lag was key in these games is debateable. you could see the MVP mistakes early game on metalopolis were lag, but it doesnt mean he should have won. they just seem to be playing very badly right now. even in GSL and GSTL they just arent keeping up with what their skill levels once were.
I do believe playing online tournaments is a bad idea though, this is esports. It should be the epitome of gaming. and having a random factor like lag or latency in the game (Even for both players) makes for some pretty lame games imo. Put all of these players on LAN and i believe you'd see much better games from all players. you can tell watching those games that units seem to move slower, and react much slower when micro'd. making kiting more difficult. something most terran units are terrible without.
either way, im pretty dissapointed in the level of play. I have seen Nestea defend early game marine hellion attacks dozens of times, why was this tournament any different? :/
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Aside from the hard data on the actual latency in the matches, which is unavailable, and the ability of organisms to adapt to their environments, I think it is fair to say that players, being imperfect, have different levels of ability, made up by different levels of the abilities underlying those abilities, such that you are able to have the dynamic of different styles making for the uncertainty of picking a victor in a match, even when one of the involved parties is seen to be definitively a player with greater ability.
Having said that, I would like to go further and suggest that the ability to adapt to latency is an ability that players also posses to varying degrees.
In which case you could make the argument that player A would be beat player B nine times out of ten on equal footing, but given a latency issue, are considerably handicapped.
Conversely, a different player may also be able to play at or near their regular ability while encountering latency.
Those are my thoughts on the subject, though I do not want to de-emphasize the importance of practice in different latencies. I make the above considerations assuming an equivalent amount of practice on either side of a comparison between to players for the purposes of lending credence to the said consideration.
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Thank you Jinro for taking time to write something about this situation. Interessting Topic
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Nice write up. Really cool the perspective on lag and that you can minimise it when you practice. I think it's very logical and would agree with it. Also because many times I've heard when people go to lan with very low latency, they also have a hard time playing because they are used to the internet lag! Was in an old interview of a quake pro I watched recently. He said his lightning gun, think thats the one with the constant beam you wanna keep on your target at all times, was useless on lan he couldn't do it, he was used to the lag. So even for something so fast and accurate super low lag can be a detriment. And there are probably some small things with KR having a bit more lag overall but its not a game decider and there is nothing we can do about it. Except invite the koreans to ladder on our servers Something they most definitely don't really do currently.
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Lag definitely DID affect the games, it was even painfully evident for us, viewers, in some situations. Probably the most when MVP lost marine and reaper to probe surround. I believe noone will argue with me when I say he wouldn't ever make this mistake in lagless game. Same goes for Genius and his late+missplaced forcefields during early game at Xel naga caverns.
The only question is, how much did the lag affect the game. Even though MVP lost marine+reaper early, he still got into commanding position but lost the game nevertheless and there wasn't much he could blame on lag (maybe the crucial engagement when he got forcefielded running at Adel's ramp?). The first game was just pure Adel's domination. Genius' games were similar, there was no actual situation in which you would say "this made him lose the game, if there was no lag, this wouldn't have happened". I mean if you're on 2 bases for whole game or your opponent is maxed with 3-3 upgrades while you have lousy bio army, you just can't blame it on lag.
That being said I think it threw them off their game and when you don't feel comfortable, it's more likely you will make mistakes and bad decissions.
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For me lag had a clear influence on two games : MVP vs Adel game 2 and even more in Genius vs qxc game 3. The first contains a great deal of unexplicable mismicro, and given how close the game was, I'm pretty sure it had an influence on the result. I think Adel would have won though, he had pretty good strategy prepared, even though his mechanics were sometimes ugly. The second contains among the worst forcefield and storm I've seen on a pro level in sc2 (I admit I don't watch much though), and I'm pretty sure qxc would have lost that game too, and game 3 might have been up in the air. It probably influe other games, but not as much, and I think foreigner were quite deserving of their victory anyway.
As for your point about regularity, as someone who is watching a sc2 tournament only because it's TSL, I know you can't influence what blizzard is doing, but I think you've become far too accepting of the situation. I remember reading a post by R1CH explaing how implementing à 25ms delay in version 1.16 of BW resulted in everybody staying on the version before... And while your point still stands, I am pretty sure that for things like Jaedong vs Flash muta vs marine micro, even very slight asymetrical latency would have an impact, and possibly decide a good part of the game. Plus learning some very hard micro stuff on 2-3 different latency sounds ridiculous. This might be irrelevant to the way sc2 is played and possibly will be played, but honestly, if it really is, quid of sc2 as an esport ?
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Seriously, why do people in this thread still take lag as the decisive factor? I think no one of you is living in Korea and the greatest part haven't even played EU->KR or NA->KR.
Why do you still stand your point when Jinro clearly says that the latency does not affect the game too much? It's like arguing in a completly logic mindstream and then the other dude just says "no, it's not". Most people take some action into account and refer the mistake to lag but often don't notice that the players point of view was not at this spot at the time being and therefore the mistake simply can not be connected to latency issues.
This is so stupid. GoOdy and AdelScott played better or were better prepared and as pointed out before, if the Koreans did not play on NA before their TSL matches it was simply their mistake.
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On March 27 2011 19:01 chenchen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 18:48 pedduck wrote: If we going to think of sc2 as a sport, we have to accept this. Weather condition, server condition, etc etc will have an effect on a game. This is the beauty of it. This is why football have home and away game. The problem is that one side is being punished more than the other side. If it rains and the field is slippery, it's slippery for both sides. Terrible analogy. Wtf? That's a terrible post seeing that he gave you a perfect example right in front of you. A home game is generally more favourable than an away game because of familiarity and fan support. The funny thing is that the games weren't even played on a home/away server, but on a neutral server. Despite the very slight difference in extent of lag for Europeans and Koreans, the Koreans failed to prepare for playing on the NA server whether be it inexperience, aloofness or simply not caring enough.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 27 2011 19:58 Sina92 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 11:03 Maurader wrote:I'm going to get banned again, but this post is worth it. I love jinro and am a huge fan, but jinro knows what effect lag has on the game as evidenced when he played vs select in the gcpl. These are the jinro quotes after that game, when lag wasn't as bad as it was pre earthquake. Jinro doesn't know how bad the lag was for these players, since he wasn't actually sitting with them when they played, but does know the frustration it causes to himself to deal with lag. Also tyler knows how lag effects the game as well cause shortly after the earth quake he was playing on korean server. He was in a base trade with a zerg and lost and then even he acknowledged that the lag was terrible and the reason he lost. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=28#548On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#564On February 04 2011 16:19 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Uhm, he played fine of course? Its not like I went into either game expecting anything else. Select played great, but its fucking annoying to play vs the way he plays when it lags this much. Its like, in perfect situations his playstyle is annoying to deal with, then you add lag and it makes you want to kill yourself. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#574On February 04 2011 16:30 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 04 2011 16:27 Ezze wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Ouch man. But yea I kind of agree. I didn't see any lag issues in the first game. I would probably give some credit to SeleCT there Jinro instead of blaming the loss on lag. Lol, why do you think it took THREE scans to kill 1 banshee in the first game? That doesnt mean I think they are bad, but theres just no way Im going to beat a player who is as good as me in this lag -- Im not gonna lie and say "oh the lag was fine", that doesnt mean they didnt play good and might very well have won anyways.I can also mention that a big reason I won game 1 was because my hellions luckboxed and saw his dropship going out. Making excuses sucks, it makes you look terrible but I m too frustrated to not bring it up. Yes, I knew it was gonna lag when I agreed to play but that doesnt change anything about how you feel after games like these. User was banned for this post.Mod note: he wasn't banned for the criticism, he's banned for stating he will be banned. Anytime a user "martyrs" he is automatically banned. Very good point and I agree with you. I don't think that it's a coincident that Koreans win most LAN events they are invited to.
Let me just quote myself:
Another thing I want to mention here is that when you lose in slightly laggy settings, and to make it worse, slightly laggy settings that you usually never play in... You are going to blame it on this. You are not going to go "Oh, I was off my game because IIm not used to these conditions and it got in my head".
No, you go "FUck this MOTHER FUCKING LAG, and FUCK this stupid server". And its natural, but keep this in mind when someone complains about lag. It probably did lag, and it probably did affect him a little, but as someone who at first felt that playing on the US was a complete joke, and now think its "a little annoying but mostly not game deciding"... Well, its just going to feel a lot worse than it actually was.
Also, there are things where latency is gonna matter - viking micro is one of them because its so much about response time, force fields another. I havent felt like I lost any other games purely because of lag since then tho, and Im sure if you check my comments you would see that too.
That being said I think it threw them off their game and when you don't feel comfortable, it's more likely you will make mistakes and bad decissions.
This is what I wanted to get at. The lag exists, but this is what actually hurts you the most, and is also the thing you can most easily get used to.
It would be a lie to say that I prepared on NA, but the fact that Ive played lots of clan wars there definitely helped.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 27 2011 11:13 Maurader wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 11:10 vdale wrote:On March 27 2011 11:03 Maurader wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I'm going to get banned again, but this post is worth it. I love jinro and am a huge fan, but jinro knows what effect lag has on the game as evidenced when he played vs select in the gcpl. These are the jinro quotes after that game, when lag wasn't as bad as it was pre earthquake. Jinro doesn't know how bad the lag was for these players, but does know the frustration it causes to himself to deal with lag. Also tyler knows how lag effects the game as well cause shortly after the earth quake he was playing on korean server. He was in a base trade with a zerg and lost and then even he acknowledged that the lag was terrible and the reason he lost. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=28#548On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#564On February 04 2011 16:19 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Uhm, he played fine of course? Its not like I went into either game expecting anything else. Select played great, but its fucking annoying to play vs the way he plays when it lags this much. Its like, in perfect situations his playstyle is annoying to deal with, then you add lag and it makes you want to kill yourself. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#574On February 04 2011 16:30 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2011 16:27 Ezze wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Ouch man. But yea I kind of agree. I didn't see any lag issues in the first game. I would probably give some credit to SeleCT there Jinro instead of blaming the loss on lag. Lol, why do you think it took THREE scans to kill 1 banshee in the first game? That doesnt mean I think they are bad, but theres just no way Im going to beat a player who is as good as me in this lag -- Im not gonna lie and say "oh the lag was fine", that doesnt mean they didnt play good and might very well have won anyways.I can also mention that a big reason I won game 1 was because my hellions luckboxed and saw his dropship going out. Making excuses sucks, it makes you look terrible but I m too frustrated to not bring it up. Yes, I knew it was gonna lag when I agreed to play but that doesnt change anything about how you feel after games like these. he said: No, you go "FUck this MOTHER FUCKING LAG, and FUCK this stupid server". And its natural, but keep this in mind when someone complains about lag. It probably did lag, and it probably did affect him a little, but as someone who at first felt that playing on the US was a complete joke, and now think its "a little annoying but mostly not game deciding"... Well, its just going to feel a lot worse than it actually was. Well good, at least jinro acknowledged how much lag does play a role and doesn't brush it off lightly. I just wasted my ban for nothing then. However, I would like jinro's opinion on lag pre earthquake and post earthquake. As I understand it, the lag was bearable pre earthquake, but has been bad post earthquake and is noticeably laggier. Not noticed anything, but I havent played enough on NA to tell you for sure.
On March 27 2011 11:32 suejak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 11:30 BigMaiko wrote: nestea played really shitty, and you can´t blame getting roach speed just 400 years late in game somewhat of thing about latency. even the superlong burrowed roaches on shakuras, that was so stupid.... it felt like he was nervous.... You mean the burrowed roaches that kept going and going after Goody's tanks open-fired on them? The burrowed roaches that, after being fired upon, kept going towards the tanks for another couple of volleys? The burrowed roaches that then, upon making it near the tanks and hellions, suddenly turned around to run and kept being fired on? The ~40 food of burrowed roaches that died without killing anything at all? Without even unburrowing? Yeah... You don't think that was latency? Of course that wasnt latency lol
That was him not realizing how many units were actually there and then going "fuck it".
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 27 2011 09:30 Bleb wrote: Imho lag issues are noticed the most in genius vs qxc games I don't think I've ever seen so many missed forcefield. Had he used them better I'm sure xelnaga game would be totally different. (please notice how he lost his first exp... wtf) Pheonix micro was off, storms were late, unit control was poor... yes, his gameplan was horrible, upgrades nonexistant and exps awfully late but still lag issues were noticeable.
Clearly he didn't spend much time practicing on NA ladder (if any) but at the end I feel like lag is tainting awesomeness of this tournament. Not by much but with TL we're used to perfection ; ) ! Force field micro is probably one of the most seriously affected abilities yes... Anticipate dodging them gets a bit harder too.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 27 2011 10:17 mufin wrote:but... but.. that means Koreans aren't better than foreigners... + Show Spoiler + They are, just not as much as in SC1.
On March 27 2011 10:57 cuppatea wrote: Is it possible that the lag from the oGs house is less severe than from other team houses, perhaps using other ISP's?
I mean, I'm watching oGsZenio and oGsSuperNova play pretty well in the FXOpen, whereas MVP and MKP are microing their units on the NA server like they're playing SC2 for the first time.
Would the latency you (Jinro) experienced playing against Morrow in the TSL explain MVP's inability to kite slow zealots with marauders or probes with reapers? Or Genius throwing down forcefields seconds after the army he's trying to trap has already retreated?
MVP's micro against Adelscott was SO bad (as in legitimately not even diamond level) that it looked more like "it's impossible to control my units" than "I'm playing with a slightly higher latency than usual." I doubt it, however all these people yoou mentioned have played on the US server before. Supernova played in the last FXO (and lost pretty early), Zenio has played in US tournaments as far back as the GGI or whatever that was called, the one just after release.
So... I doubt it, probably just them being more used to the lag.
On March 27 2011 09:55 Seiyu wrote: The most USERS from here don't understand the huge difference that LAG does. Here in Brazil the delay is like 150ms, because the servers are actually in USA, you'll know what's is lag when you press a key to update your building but it's1.5 sec to it actually happen's, then you'll move your camera to another place but when you back to your building you'll see that nothing happened to your build, because there where another action in the queue and then the instability of the internet, because of the delay, makes a conflict of actions.
I don't want to flame non-korean players, but you guys must know that LAG actually does a lot of difference in an PRO match as the gap between players aren't that mutch as JINRO stated. I have experienced this happening a bit. It might have actually happened vs MorroW (in the gaame I won), cause I was sure I started a CC then I go back and cant find it anywhere... So yeah, I have had this happen a number of times, where things just dont register because you are going too fast or something, and it sucks, but its not that common.
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Yes, I understand that latency is something you have to get used to in order to be able to deal with it. And yes, I understand that the korean players are to blame if they don't prepare for their games. But still, it sucks to have the korean players not performing to their best. It's their fault, and they should have known better, but it certainly does take away from how legit the tournament can be seen (in particular if you want the foreigners so smash korean faces^^). Especially after how low tier Code A players absolutely wiped the floor with the foreigners at IEM and it's gonna be even worse if the same happens next week at GSL WC.
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On March 27 2011 22:37 Slunk wrote: Yes, I understand that latency is something you have to get used to in order to be able to deal with it. And yes, I understand that the korean players are to blame if they don't prepare for their games. But still, it sucks to have the korean players not performing to their best. It's their fault, and they should have known better, but it certainly does take away from how legit the tournament can be seen (in particular if you want the foreigners so smash korean faces^^). Especially after how low tier Code A players absolutely wiped the floor with the foreigners at IEM and it's gonna be even worse if the same happens next week at GSL WC.
This is the best solution, this is the most legit it gets in cross-continental play right now. Nothing to do about it. If koreans are that much better, see it like a golf handicap . No single tournament says much about skill, consistency is what matter. Practice, preparation and stuff like that is always a factor. Lag can be a factor too. Just live with it, the world isnt a perfect place.
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Firstly, thanks to Jinro for this post, and for responding to peoples posts, really speaks to the stregnth of TL when one of the best players in the world is actively involved in the community.
Speaking from personal experience, i played wc3 with a 2sec delay for years and years, and although i was never a top player by any means, i did okay on the ladder and copped with the delay. I honestly dont think delay is much of and issue at all in RTS gaming. HOWEVER, when you are not used to delay (playing on KR server has almost no delay) and then just go straight into a lot of delay, thats really going to through you off your game.
Also, the game doesnt just involve how you macro/micro and make decisions in game, it is also about any out of game preperations that need to be made. The main one for this is getting used to the lag. As Jinro said, TL offered guest accounts to koreans and warned them there may be delay. So either koreans did this and played for awhile on NA and just got out played, or didnt take the time to get used to the delay and lost partly due to delay. Whichever scenario is the true one (prob differs from player to player), the result of the match was correct.
Coming up we have the GSL, Korea vs the world. will be very interesting to see how this goes! korea vs foreigner in no delay!!!!
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On March 27 2011 18:56 Paradice wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 18:18 MasterOfChaos wrote:On March 27 2011 08:23 Liquid`Jinro wrote: When people talk about latency, it always brings to mind an article or quote I read somewhere, about how what matters the most is really not absolute latency, but rather stability. As long as you can get used to it, its not gonna be too bad for your game I think. I assume you're referring to the article about the AoE netcode: For RTS games, 250 milliseconds of command latency was not even noticed -- between 250 and 500 msec was very playable, and beyond 500 it started to be noticeable. It was also interesting to note that players developed a "game pace" and a mental expectation of the lag between when they clicked and when their unit responded. A consistent slower response was better than alternating between fast and slow command latency (say between 80 and 500 msec) -- in that case a consistent 500 msec command latency was playable, but one that varied was considered "jerky" and hard to use. 1500 Archers on a 28.8: Network Programming in Age of Empires and Beyond Damn it you beat me to it! I love that article. I would also recommend, if anyone is actually interested in learning about how different genres of games communicate with each other (hopefully to shut people up who have been comparing SC2 latency to Counter Strike ?!?), read this article: (the Peer To Peer Lockstep model is relevant for SC2): What every programmer needs to know about game networking
You see, this is how SC1 worked, and latency was the same for both players. If the same applied for SC2 you would have the same latency as well. The idea that is being put forward is that the overseas player has more latency than the local. So SC2 does NOT use the peer to peer lockstep! The funny part is that this model is by far the best I can see for using in multiplayer RTS. So Blizzard must have gone to great lengths to implement something different for the purpose of discouraging cross-regional play.
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United States32493 Posts
I don't think this is in any way the final word on the NA-KR lag issue, but it's good to have a balancing opinion from someone who says KR-NA is definitely playable against those who claim it's some incredible disadvantage that makes master leaguers lose to people in silver.
The truth is, we don't know exactly what kind of conditions the players were playing under. We know NA-KR lag can range from quite playable to downright horrendous, but trying to guess where it fell through VODs of a game is fruitless and pointless speculation.
What I can say though, is that TSL players were offered the opportunity to delay their game and play on a different connection if they found the lag to be unplayable. As a last resort, we offered anyone to play at the oGs-TL house where we had confirmation from TL players that the lag was definitely in the playable range. Of the Korean players, only Nada (who does not normally reside at the oGs house) chose to exercise this option. Everyone else showed up, and just played their game.
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guess that means nada wins today :o
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Thanka a lot Jinro, great post
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Imo people are underestimating the perfomance drawbacks some slight lag can have, let alone a whole second delay. Did someone say 2 seconds delay as tweeted by Boxers wife? I'm not surprised as if you watch the replays you can see obvious reaction delays that normally shouldn't be made by pros. Not to mention Boxer got disconnected, didnt exactly give me a good impression of stable connection. Hell, a half second delay 500 ms latency is killer for perfomance. SC2 is a fast game. Its not Call of Duty, but fast in a different way. Reaction times are just as important.
Teamliquid will do their best to underrate the effects of lag because otherwise this whole tournament will be considered useless wich is bad PR for Teamliquid. And I understand completely they have every right to protect the games.
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So what you are saying is that to play with lag u need to practice with it. And i doubt the koreans would bother practicing with lag only for TSL. So, since they most likely never practiced with lag, lag was a deciding factor.
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On March 27 2011 23:57 Nizaris wrote: So what you are saying is that to play with lag u need to practice with it. And i doubt the koreans would bother practicing with lag only for TSL. So, since they most likely never practiced with lag, lag was a deciding factor. If they don't bother practicing for TSL don't you think that's a problem?
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Germany25639 Posts
Its their own fault then, they agreed to play i a tournament and did not prepare for it accordingly. TL even told them about possible lag, so yeah, maybe next time they will come prepared :D
EDIT: basically what redmark said ^^
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I haven't read through the entire thread so this may have been mentioned but Boxer's wife or girlfriend or w/e mentioned that Boxer was playing with 2000ms in his games against Nightend and that's no small little difference that you can get used to. I assume that she may have been talking about it spiking that high but honestly I don't really know for sure.
I play for Team EG for another game so I've done a lot of LAN / Online E-Sports type tournaments and as Jinro said you can get used to latency worse than normal by playing on it, but what you can't get used to is inconsistent latency. If someones latency is spiking to 2000 during a match if it occurs at an important time even if it's only bad for 1-2 seconds it can easily decide the outcome of a match whether it's lining up a head shot or microing mid-battle.
The last thing I'll mention is that from talking to Korean players at LAN events and trying to play with them online their latency is so insanely good in Korea that even the slightest delay felt unplayable and disgusting to them. My one Korean friend said he got around 5ms at home in most games and the thought of playing with 100 was unthinkable to him so they didn't even want to try. So all in all the latency might not be that big of an issue for those of us used to playing with it but little things can really get in your head while playing in tournaments, I've seen people not be able to play right because they're sitting a few CM lower than they're used to or some other tiny little thing doesn't feel right and it gets in their head. So if that's the case with the Koreans then it's really unfortunate because it can totally throw you off.
That said the NA / EU players played better in those games and the Koreans likely didn't prepare simply because like everyone else they assumed it'd be easy wins. If there was massive ping spiking then it's hard to say who would've won but if it's just a bit of latency then obviously the people who won deserved to it's the Koreans fault for not preparing. Either way it kind of sucks because it's lose / lose for the tournament and the players since so many people end up blaming results on lag it discredits the players and the tournament and who's to say that they wouldn't have won those games against the koreans playing at a LAN?
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In WC3 if I would play some games on LAN latency and then play ladder, my first few games would always be awful, just because I'd wrongly anticipate some tricky micro timings. If you're not prepared to deal with them, the first sign of lag causing you to play bad enforces a bad mindset where you're not focusing on the games. I imagine this is why the Korean players were all playing below potential and making mistakes that don't seem to be caused by lag: it's because their focus was off due to being distracted.
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I remember when I used to play DotA with my old crappy computer, I had 1-2 seconds delay before the command was executed. The more and more and I played, I started to be more and more accustomed to the lag, until I totally forgot about his existence. One day, a friend came over and we played a couple of games. He was never able to perform well due to the delay, even tho I didn't felt any.
When I switched computers, I almost didn't notice a difference either, except that all my actions were a few miliseconds ahead. I barely noticed it. I would say that if the koreans were not accustommed to the lag, it is their fault. If they never experienced it and start playing a tournament game... well blaming lag for your loss seems like a good option.
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This two second lag that keeps getting brought up is an obvious exaggeration, the game would freeze to sync if there was really that much latency involved. While I can't speak for every player, I know the connection from New York to Korea is 240ms. Bnet US is in California, so subtract 70ms from this for approximate good condition Bnet US to KR latency. Please stop with the hyperbole.
Regarding the earthquake that people think has affected connections, it is true that some routes were affected and the re-routing was less than optimal, causing 600+ms latency over affected routes. To the best of my knowledge, the affected routes were only affected for a period of several days shortly after the quake, during which time no TSL games were played. In addition, 600ms is borderline unplayable and would have hopefully been brought up during any testing.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 27 2011 23:56 Paincakez wrote: Imo people are underestimating the perfomance drawbacks some slight lag can have, let alone a whole second delay. Did someone say 2 seconds delay as tweeted by Boxers wife? I'm not surprised as if you watch the replays you can see obvious reaction delays that normally shouldn't be made by pros. Not to mention Boxer got disconnected, didnt exactly give me a good impression of stable connection. Hell, a half second delay 500 ms latency is killer for perfomance. SC2 is a fast game. Its not Call of Duty, but fast in a different way. Reaction times are just as important.
Teamliquid will do their best to underrate the effects of lag because otherwise this whole tournament will be considered useless wich is bad PR for Teamliquid. And I understand completely they have every right to protect the games.
There isnt even a 2 second delay from KR to EU -_________- Hell, the EU delay isnt even 1 second so wtf.
People need to stop putting up such ridiculous numbers, because numbers that big are actually physically unplayable and nobody would agree to a tournament under those conditions.
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I am just really amazed Jinro took the time to post and address all the comments that others have been posting. From what I have read in online articles regarding the tremendous amount of practice time pro-gamers spend everyday perfecting their skills, I am greatly impressed by Jinro's efforts at helping everyone understand this latency issue. Much thanks!
Edit: Sorry I have nothing else to add because they have all pretty much been answered by reading the previous posts in this thread.
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this forum has been Jinrolled once again! great post. I sure hope its gonna cooldown some trolls/rager/hater/ppl who dont know what they are talking about. its always good to have an opinions from the inside. ty Jonahtan and best of luck in next GSL!
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It's a sad realisation that still in 2011, there is latency to magnitude that people consider it the biggest contributor to the results, it simply shouldn't be this way. There's little that can be done on the lower levels (i.e. the people affected by this), other than preparation for the match, knowing that the Koreans would be required to play on different servers, and having the privilege of flawless connections prior to this, they should have become accustomed to some form of latency before playing.
But, you really cannot blame them, because they shouldn't have to prepare for latency in the first place, it's pretty ridiculous. And it is true what people are saying, even the slightless fluctuation in connection can really throw a player off, it's constantly irritating you, always in the back of your mind that the connection is playing up. That's not to take away from the foreigners in the TSL though, atleast, most of the games, because they merely just played alot better than their opponents, especially during the games we saw last night. Though it does dis-credit the victories slightly, knowing that this controversy is going on, for people will always be wondered and saying to themselves: "Well, would this same result be the case if there were no lag?", to which we just cannot answer that question.
TL;DR, Battle.net 2.0 fails, other countries with stable economies need to invest far more into improving their high-speed internet, to atleast compete with the speed over in Korea. This will happen in 4-6 years or something, unfortunately.
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Dominican Republic913 Posts
+ Show Spoiler +On March 27 2011 13:55 usethis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 11:03 Maurader wrote:I'm going to get banned again, but this post is worth it. I love jinro and am a huge fan, but jinro knows what effect lag has on the game as evidenced when he played vs select in the gcpl. These are the jinro quotes after that game, when lag wasn't as bad as it was pre earthquake. Jinro doesn't know how bad the lag was for these players, since he wasn't actually sitting with them when they played, but does know the frustration it causes to himself to deal with lag. Also tyler knows how lag effects the game as well cause shortly after the earth quake he was playing on korean server. He was in a base trade with a zerg and lost and then even he acknowledged that the lag was terrible and the reason he lost. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=28#548On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#564On February 04 2011 16:19 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Uhm, he played fine of course? Its not like I went into either game expecting anything else. Select played great, but its fucking annoying to play vs the way he plays when it lags this much. Its like, in perfect situations his playstyle is annoying to deal with, then you add lag and it makes you want to kill yourself. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=189994¤tpage=29#574On February 04 2011 16:30 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On February 04 2011 16:27 Ezze wrote:On February 04 2011 16:10 gaston116 wrote:On February 04 2011 16:03 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Microing vikings in lag is a fucking joke -- What did you think of SjoWs play? Ouch man. But yea I kind of agree. I didn't see any lag issues in the first game. I would probably give some credit to SeleCT there Jinro instead of blaming the loss on lag. Lol, why do you think it took THREE scans to kill 1 banshee in the first game? That doesnt mean I think they are bad, but theres just no way Im going to beat a player who is as good as me in this lag -- Im not gonna lie and say "oh the lag was fine", that doesnt mean they didnt play good and might very well have won anyways.I can also mention that a big reason I won game 1 was because my hellions luckboxed and saw his dropship going out. Making excuses sucks, it makes you look terrible but I m too frustrated to not bring it up. Yes, I knew it was gonna lag when I agreed to play but that doesnt change anything about how you feel after games like these.
User was banned for this post. Why is this guy banned? He simply quoted someone else's posts (which were not deemed ban-worthy, obviously). Confused here. Is TL so closed-minded that it doesn't want to hear anything unpleasant, even though it's presented in civil manners? Not that I think his post is most polite one nor agree with what message his post presumably intends to convey, but the free speech means nothing if you simply block what you don't want to hear.
This is the most Beautifull post i ever read in TL
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Braavos36362 Posts
2GRe-Play-, usethis2 was not banned, Maurader was banned for martyring.
Relevant post:
On March 27 2011 14:15 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 14:05 usethis2 wrote:On March 27 2011 13:59 Myles wrote: Martyring yourself - aka saying anything like 'this will get me banned' - will always get you banned here regardless of what else is in your post. Interesting. Is it in the ToS (Term of Service) of this forum? Yes. Show nested quote +TL 10 Commandments
Don't be a drama queen martyr. TeamLiquid isn't colonial America or Tienanmen Square. You do not need to preemptively declare "I'm going to be banned for this..." or "ban me, I don't care." Our Moderators ban for good reasons. If they read someone acting like a martyr, they'll simply treat it as a request to be banned. Martyring could be a huge problem for our mods because it's a lose-lose situation. If you ban martyrs it looks like they were right about your "biased" moderation. If you don't ban them then you encourage more martyring and passive-aggressive jabs at biased moderation. So we simply remove the choice, and state that every martyr is an auto-ban regardless of what they say. If you offer constructive criticism we always try to receive it fairly.
Summary: usethis2 asked why Maurader was banned, I explained it had nothing to do with his criticism but rather breaking the martyring rule.
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On March 27 2011 23:57 Nizaris wrote: So what you are saying is that to play with lag u need to practice with it. And i doubt the koreans would bother practicing with lag only for TSL. So, since they most likely never practiced with lag, lag was a deciding factor.
If a tennis player always played on a grass court, then entered a tournament which used a clay court, the different ball bounce could be a deciding factor. Doesn't change the fact that the player is at fault for never practicing on a clay court.
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400-450 ping is fine, though borderline, for an RTS.
An FPS, on the other hand...
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Is there actually a difference in latency on servers in general? (like is playing EU from EU different to playing KR from KR) I don't know much about server and latency-stuff, so i'm just curious
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On March 28 2011 01:46 lowkontrast wrote:400-450 ping is fine, though borderline, for an RTS. An FPS, on the other hand... I checked my ping using pingtest.net and speedtest.net multiple times and rarely got over 300 ping to Korea. I'm also on the east coast, and I believe the connection to Korea goes through the west coast (where most Blizzard stuff is.) + Show Spoiler + Also my jitter was in the 3-4ms range which is the thing that really becomes a problem until your latency is very high. The comparison between my connection and yours is probably alot like how liquid players were saying the connection was viable at the OGs/TL house. It may have been worse other places.
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On March 28 2011 01:46 lowkontrast wrote:400-450 ping is fine, though borderline, for an RTS. An FPS, on the other hand...
With that kind of ping AND pretty high jitter i can see the two second long hickups boxers girlfriend was talking about. As the guy above me stated, maybe that's why some players from korea seem to do alot better than others.
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Mighty Jinro speaks, we listen. Thank you sir!
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Pingtest is not a reliable provider for testing your ping as the route to their server is very different to the route to battle.net.
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Great post. Props to TL for thinking to offer practice NA accounts to KR
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People need to talk more about preparation and less about lag, so this post was really refreshing. I did not see much mis-micro from Genius for example: his force fields were solid, storms seemed fine, etc. He just got tactically outplayed over the course of the game by a hard working qxc, who never stopped dropping, using reapers and generally responded well to Genius' army mix. He made enough ghosts, didn't over produce vikings, etc. On the other side, Genius made a few questionable decissions as to when to push/pull back and seemed to not expand when he had the opportunity to do so. Perhaps some of this was due to general discomfort, blame it on whatever you'd like, but in the end Genius lost because his strategy on this particular day was lacking.
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On March 27 2011 15:00 Comadevil wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 14:53 GreEny K wrote: So what you are saying is that anyone playing someone else on the same server is equal to LAN latency? So US on US = LAN? Read his post: He didn't say that. He mentioned only Korea. And Korea has one of the best internet infrastructure in the world
That's what my question was, less attitude please. Was wondering if it applies to all servers.
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On March 28 2011 02:42 citi.zen wrote: People need to talk more about preparation and less about lag, so this post was really refreshing. I did not see much mis-micro from Genius for example: his force fields were solid, storms seemed fine, etc. He just got tactically outplayed over the course of the game by a hard working qxc, who never stopped dropping, using reapers and generally responded well to Genius' army mix. He made enough ghosts, didn't over produce vikings, etc. On the other side, Genius made a few questionable decissions as to when to push/pull back and seemed to not expand when he had the opportunity to do so. Perhaps some of this was due to general discomfort, blame it on whatever you'd like, but in the end Genius lost because his strategy on this particular day was lacking.
His force fields were solid?? You sure you watched the same game? At one point when he was attacking QXC's natural you can blatantly see how lag was effecting him as he was trying to forcefield the marauders in half but they moved away and then the 2 force fields for the split went off, do you really think he did that on purpose? lol....
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On March 28 2011 02:42 citi.zen wrote: People need to talk more about preparation and less about lag, so this post was really refreshing. I did not see much mis-micro from Genius for example: his force fields were solid, storms seemed fine, etc. He just got tactically outplayed over the course of the game by a hard working qxc, who never stopped dropping, using reapers and generally responded well to Genius' army mix. He made enough ghosts, didn't over produce vikings, etc. On the other side, Genius made a few questionable decissions as to when to push/pull back and seemed to not expand when he had the opportunity to do so. Perhaps some of this was due to general discomfort, blame it on whatever you'd like, but in the end Genius lost because his strategy on this particular day was lacking.
Ok the players might have played poorly which resulted in their loss, but people need to understand that lag has a huge affect on gameplay and can't always be prepared for. If you just talk about the delay between telling an scv to go build a building to when it actually moves, then of course that can be prepared for. But as jinro later added, reaction time to forcefields and specific micro tasks during battle are extremely crucial. Players can't see 1 second into the future and predict where the forcefield will land and then move the units 1 second before the forcefield lands to dodge.
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On March 28 2011 00:59 R1CH wrote: This two second lag that keeps getting brought up is an obvious exaggeration, the game would freeze to sync if there was really that much latency involved. While I can't speak for every player, I know the connection from New York to Korea is 240ms. Bnet US is in California, so subtract 70ms from this for approximate good condition Bnet US to KR latency. Please stop with the hyperbole.
Regarding the earthquake that people think has affected connections, it is true that some routes were affected and the re-routing was less than optimal, causing 600+ms latency over affected routes. To the best of my knowledge, the affected routes were only affected for a period of several days shortly after the quake, during which time no TSL games were played. In addition, 600ms is borderline unplayable and would have hopefully been brought up during any testing.
Guys, R1CH has spoken. He's 100 times more knowledgeable given his expertise and his privileged position than any of us. He just confirmed everything that every single non-drama queen/bandwagoner/reasonable person has been saying for the last week.
As for which, I'm beginning to doubt the common law's reliance on analysis based on the reasonable person, since TL is obviously lacking in those, given that 1) 2000ms latency is absolutely ridiculous - that feels like 15 years or so when you are playing a competitive game (have any of you even counted 2 seconds out loud because it is damn ridiculous to believe this is not a HUGE exaggeration) and 2) there were no games with over 250ms latency because the lag pop-up will appear whenever the latency is over 250ms and is programmed to do so; this is in line with R1CH's analysis.
So we know that the Koreans played with, at most, 250ms latency, which is like an Australian playing on the NA server. Hm, last time I checked, Australians played without incessant bitching. Maybe the Korean professional gamers should have actually prepared for the conditions like any reasonable athlete or taken advantage for each of the extra options graciously extended to them by TL.
Time to STFU imo.
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it sucks that this happens because wins might be slightly undeserved, or if they are deserved, they will be mostly pushed off as though it only happened because it was online.
I wonder how the GOM world tournament will turn out.
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thank you jinro! these statements were obviously needed from a progamer!
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On March 27 2011 23:29 Waxangel wrote: I don't think this is in any way the final word on the NA-KR lag issue, but it's good to have a balancing opinion from someone who says KR-NA is definitely playable against those who claim it's some incredible disadvantage that makes master leaguers lose to people in silver.
The truth is, we don't know exactly what kind of conditions the players were playing under. We know NA-KR lag can range from quite playable to downright horrendous, but trying to guess where it fell through VODs of a game is fruitless and pointless speculation.
What I can say though, is that TSL players were offered the opportunity to delay their game and play on a different connection if they found the lag to be unplayable. As a last resort, we offered anyone to play at the oGs-TL house where we had confirmation from TL players that the lag was definitely in the playable range. Of the Korean players, only Nada (who does not normally reside at the oGs house) chose to exercise this option. Everyone else showed up, and just played their game.
I appreciate Jinro's making this topic which helps subdue lots of the lag arguments, but I strongly agree with what this post is saying. I've brought it up before and no one really clarified for me: Is Jinro speaking of experience based off of playing on oGs-TL house-quality internet? I've heard quite a few times that oGs-TL house players experience significantly better KR-NA latency conditions than players in other team houses, due to some factor involving ISP, or the way the connection is set up, or something - I forget.
If so, it would make sense why MC's micro seemed spot-on against Ciara in game 1 since he'd be playing with a nice oGs-TL house connection, why SuperNova claimed that his connection felt perfectly fine (since he'd be also enjoying the good oGs-TL house connection) and it would also make sense why some reports conflict with Jinro's in how they make things sound much worse than Jinro is saying. It would explain why MVP made ridiculous mistakes like losing a reaper to probes, and why his kiting seemed so terrible - maybe MVP was playing under worse conditions than Jinro was describing due to the IM house having a worse connection that the oGs-TL house.
It would be nice to have this clarified as I have been curious about this for a while
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On March 28 2011 03:15 tyCe wrote:
So we know that the Koreans played with, at most, 250ms latency, which is like an Australian playing on the NA server. Hm, last time I checked, Australians played without incessant bitching. Maybe the Korean professional gamers should have actually prepared for the conditions like any reasonable athlete or taken advantage for each of the extra options graciously extended to them by TL. Time to STFU imo.
I get more lag to the SEA server than I do to NA and i live in brisbane, how does that work?
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Yea, Jinro made some really nice points.
The lag obviously would've played a role in the Korean's play. It's never easy playing under different settings be it hardware or latency; I think it's fair to say that this would've affected their game. At the same time, I think if players are really serious about winning the TSL they should've practiced on the US server and/or learn to adapt. I mean, it's not like every single Korean player played terribly (MC!!!).
At the same time, a lot of those big name players really haven't been doing all that well lately. Slumps? :O
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Thanks for all the posts, Jinro.
But funny to see all the posts simultaneously saying "lag didn't affect the games" and "Koreans should have prepared better for the lag."
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On March 28 2011 02:42 citi.zen wrote: People need to talk more about preparation and less about lag, so this post was really refreshing. I did not see much mis-micro from Genius for example: his force fields were solid, storms seemed fine, etc. He just got tactically outplayed over the course of the game by a hard working qxc, who never stopped dropping, using reapers and generally responded well to Genius' army mix. He made enough ghosts, didn't over produce vikings, etc. On the other side, Genius made a few questionable decissions as to when to push/pull back and seemed to not expand when he had the opportunity to do so. Perhaps some of this was due to general discomfort, blame it on whatever you'd like, but in the end Genius lost because his strategy on this particular day was lacking.
" his force fields were solid"
That statement is just straight up wrong.
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Thanks for clearing that with us Jinro. Was really hoping for a post like this from a pro. Glad you did it. And i agree with all you said. I think koreans weren't too well prepared or didn't care much. I think this will serve as a lesson for some of them and i am pretty sure it will be another story for TSL4
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Jinro lays truth with both first hand experience and flawless analysis.
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OMG TLO with cattlebruisers!!! Nerdgasms ughghghgh....
Oops, sorry wrong thread haha
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Nada's banshee control today should hopefully put any doubts about lag aside.
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On March 28 2011 07:02 Jimmeh wrote: Nada's banshee control today should hopefully put any doubts about lag aside.
Yeah I don't thiey fully dismiss all doubts, but they at least show that the idea of koreans playing on NA server is something completely viable
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United States22883 Posts
On March 28 2011 07:02 Jimmeh wrote: Nada's banshee control today should hopefully put any doubts about lag aside. That and there were a few other moments that required nearly instant reaction times and he was able to pull it off.
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On March 28 2011 07:02 Jimmeh wrote: Nada's banshee control today should hopefully put any doubts about lag aside.
sigh...
1) lag is not a consistent thing, it depends on traffic at the time
2) it is known that certain ISPs have good latency to the NA server while others have awful latency. i heard KT has a pretty good latency (around 200 ms) even after the earthquake, while the two other korean ISPs have awful (400+ average with spikes) latency.
this can also be seen as oGs players seemed to have minimal lag at FXOpen yesterday (for example Zenio/Supernova seemed to have no lag) while the prime players continuously got drop screens and lags many of the games.
i love these ignorant people that generalize things without knowing anything
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United Kingdom38056 Posts
Presuming Nada was playing from home and not the oGs house, I wonder if they still share an internet provider? It's been notable lately that the oGs guys have been doing significantly better in online tournaments (TSL & FXOpen) than other Korean players. MKP and a number of the prime players were pretty constantly on the verge of lagging out of games during the FXOpen for instance, while Zenio & SuperNova seemed far stabler.
I did also read someone saying Nada had actually practiced on the NA server to get used to it, though I'm not sure how much truth there is to that.
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On March 28 2011 07:09 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:02 Jimmeh wrote: Nada's banshee control today should hopefully put any doubts about lag aside. sigh... 1) lag is not a consistent thing, it depends on traffic at the time 2) it is known that certain ISPs have good latency to the NA server while others have awful latency. i heard KT has a pretty good latency (around 200 ms) even after the earthquake, while the two other korean ISPs have awful (400+ average with spikes) latency. i love these ignorant people that generalize things without knowing anything
1) So what? People have blamed every single Korean loss this tournament on lag and you can't tell me that that's true if lag isn't a consistent thing.
2) Then isn't this the player's fault? There's $15,000 for first place alone so why not go somewhere with decent internet so you can play at optimum condition. If there's so much money on the line but you have shit internet, go somewhere better (just a random PC bang with the KT ISP or whatever). You can't just say "my internet's bad it's not my fault" when there are other options available. Nada apparently went to the oGs house to play, why couldn't the other Korean players find alternate places to play? It's a huge tournament with a lot on the line, if the players don't want to go somewhere else to play then its their own fault.
Edit:
I just found out that, apparently, every single Korean in the TSL was offered to go to the oGs house to play. If any of the players lost due to lag then it's not the lag's fault it's the players for being too cocky/lazy/stupid to take up the offer.
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On March 28 2011 07:04 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:02 Jimmeh wrote: Nada's banshee control today should hopefully put any doubts about lag aside. That and there were a few other moments that required nearly instant reaction times and he was able to pull it off. I remember a specific moment where I noticed that: When TLO was landing that viking to snipe the SCV, Nada immediately took it off the CC, and then put it back to work just as the viking took off. It was beautiful.
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NaDa's banshee control just tells storys about the latency being not too bad - with that i mean, not as bad as to say the matches do not mean anything.
but there might still be lag involoved.
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United States22883 Posts
On March 28 2011 07:11 Asha` wrote: Presuming Nada was playing from home and not the oGs house, I wonder if they still share an internet provider? It's been notable lately that the oGs guys have been doing significantly better in online tournaments (TSL & FXOpen) than other Korean players. MKP and a number of the prime players were pretty constantly on the verge of lagging out of games during the FXOpen for instance, while Zenio & SuperNova seemed far stabler.
I did also read someone saying Nada had actually practiced on the NA server to get used to it, though I'm not sure how much truth there is to that. NaDa was playing from the oGs house, as per WaxAngel.
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I guess NaDa was just that much more prepared for the latency, and adapted his micro accordingly. Plus NaDa's reactions are superhuman anyway, he can probably see into the future. :D
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On March 28 2011 07:04 Jibba wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:02 Jimmeh wrote: Nada's banshee control today should hopefully put any doubts about lag aside. That and there were a few other moments that required nearly instant reaction times and he was able to pull it off.
I'm not so sure you could say that it is proof of no latency in any KR-US or KR-EU games at all. I think the 2 sec delayed forcefields from Genius and Mvp getting a marine and reaper surrounded by probes would indicate at least some bursts of delay.
The lag is understandable when trying to hold an international tournament, it is just too bad because I find it hard to take it seriously when a player like Mvp loses a vital reaper to a probe surround after a 15 nexus...
On the other hand, I did think Mvp's and Genius' endgame plays were quite terrible. Mvp was way behind in upgrades and doing these strange bio attacks ( which might very well have been affected by unexpected delays ) and Genius wasn't expanding in the first game and picking some very strange tactics.
The lag might throw these players off their game, I'm sure I would be pretty flustered if I lost a reaper to probes myself and subsequent bad play is very likely to follow from being out of your element. These players definately should have practiced on the US ladder to get ready and part of the blame definately lies with them, but they did play with a handicap I'd say, so it is hard to get excited about them losing.
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On March 28 2011 07:13 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:09 Namu wrote:On March 28 2011 07:02 Jimmeh wrote: Nada's banshee control today should hopefully put any doubts about lag aside. sigh... 1) lag is not a consistent thing, it depends on traffic at the time 2) it is known that certain ISPs have good latency to the NA server while others have awful latency. i heard KT has a pretty good latency (around 200 ms) even after the earthquake, while the two other korean ISPs have awful (400+ average with spikes) latency. i love these ignorant people that generalize things without knowing anything 1) So what? People have blamed every single Korean loss this tournament on lag and you can't tell me that that's true if lag isn't a consistent thing. 2) Then isn't this the player's fault? There's $15,000 for first place alone so why not go somewhere with decent internet so you can play at optimum condition. If there's so much money on the line but you have shit internet, go somewhere better (just a random PC bang with the KT ISP or whatever). You can't just say "my internet's bad it's not my fault" when there are other options available. Nada apparently went to the oGs house to play, why couldn't the other Korean players find alternate places to play? It's a huge tournament with a lot on the line, if the players don't want to go somewhere else to play then its their own fault. Edit: I just found out that, apparently, every single Korean in the TSL was offered to go to the oGs house to play. If any of the players lost due to lag then it's not the lag's fault it's the players for being too cocky/lazy/stupid to take up the offer.
You need to watch the games with good knowledge of how well certain players usually play to be able to more accurately assess whether or not lag seems to be an issue. Like, citing specific instances of lag or lack thereof means nothing, because it's true that lag can sometimes spike. Furthermore, citing instances of a player from KR experiencing no lag also doesn't really help, because it's now becoming apparent that the oGs house has better internet than other team houses. I've gleaned all this from reading various reports from various sources over the time following the controversial day yesterday.
Furthermore, it is reasonable to place blame on the other Korean players for not accepting the offer to play from the oGs house. They should have and could have. However, it is ALSO reasonable to conclude that lag did INDEED mar the play of non-oGs Koreans such as Nestea, MVP, and Genius, since they opted to presumably play at their own houses with inferior latency. Furthering such evidence is seeing much slower reaction time and far sloppier micro than usual from those players, as I watched their TSL games and have been following them in the GSL ever since respective emergences in the Korean scene. Just because it's the KR player's faults that they played under laggy conditions doesn't change the fact that the lag cut into their playing ability and thus perhaps produced inaccurate results. Note that inaccurate results doesn't necessarily mean that they would have won (but it's a possibility), it also speaks about how games generally looked and flowed as a whole. Just my 2 cents.
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Im gonna be guessing that of all the Korean players invited, probably only those in oGs took the time to actually practice in the NA server and get use to the lag. Im guessing players for IM etc simply didnt take TL's advice and practice beforehand and assumed that lag wouldnt be a major problem.
Either this or the oGs house simply does have a better ISP.. However hearing that the other Koreans were offered to go to the oGs house to play, then this is simply not a valid excuse.. Its like two teams going into a football match with each other and the other one decides to play 9 players vs the other team's 11, even though the team knew fully well it could field 11 players. If the other team wins, its still a valid victory and fully deserved.. even if you know that the 9 player team was at a disadvantage
Basically what im trying to say is, please stop with the lag whining in the RO16.
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On March 28 2011 07:29 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:13 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:09 Namu wrote:On March 28 2011 07:02 Jimmeh wrote: Nada's banshee control today should hopefully put any doubts about lag aside. sigh... 1) lag is not a consistent thing, it depends on traffic at the time 2) it is known that certain ISPs have good latency to the NA server while others have awful latency. i heard KT has a pretty good latency (around 200 ms) even after the earthquake, while the two other korean ISPs have awful (400+ average with spikes) latency. i love these ignorant people that generalize things without knowing anything 1) So what? People have blamed every single Korean loss this tournament on lag and you can't tell me that that's true if lag isn't a consistent thing. 2) Then isn't this the player's fault? There's $15,000 for first place alone so why not go somewhere with decent internet so you can play at optimum condition. If there's so much money on the line but you have shit internet, go somewhere better (just a random PC bang with the KT ISP or whatever). You can't just say "my internet's bad it's not my fault" when there are other options available. Nada apparently went to the oGs house to play, why couldn't the other Korean players find alternate places to play? It's a huge tournament with a lot on the line, if the players don't want to go somewhere else to play then its their own fault. Edit: I just found out that, apparently, every single Korean in the TSL was offered to go to the oGs house to play. If any of the players lost due to lag then it's not the lag's fault it's the players for being too cocky/lazy/stupid to take up the offer. You need to watch the games with good knowledge of how well certain players usually play to be able to more accurately assess whether or not lag seems to be an issue. Like, citing specific instances of lag or lack thereof means nothing, because it's true that lag can sometimes spike. Furthermore, citing instances of a player from KR experiencing no lag also doesn't really help, because it's now becoming apparent that the oGs house has better internet than other team houses. I've gleaned all this from reading various reports from various sources over the time following the controversial day yesterday. Furthermore, it is reasonable to place blame on the other Korean players for not accepting the offer to play from the oGs house. They should have and could have. However, it is ALSO reasonable to conclude that lag did INDEED mar the play of non-oGs Koreans such as Nestea, MVP, and Genius, since they opted to presumably play at their own houses with inferior latency. Furthering such evidence is seeing much slower reaction time and far sloppier micro than usual from those players, as I watched their TSL games and have been following them in the GSL ever since respective emergences in the Korean scene. Just because it's the KR player's faults that they played under laggy conditions doesn't change the fact that the lag cut into their playing ability and thus perhaps produced inaccurate results. Note that inaccurate results doesn't necessarily mean that they would have won (but it's a possibility), it also speaks about how games generally looked and flowed as a whole. Just my 2 cents.
Fair enough. I understand what you're saying and I kind of agree with you (lag was definitely a factor in MVP vs Adell on Metalopolis). Glad you kind of agree that it's also the players' faults for playing under laggy conditions in the first place though.
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On March 28 2011 07:13 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:09 Namu wrote:On March 28 2011 07:02 Jimmeh wrote: Nada's banshee control today should hopefully put any doubts about lag aside. sigh... 1) lag is not a consistent thing, it depends on traffic at the time 2) it is known that certain ISPs have good latency to the NA server while others have awful latency. i heard KT has a pretty good latency (around 200 ms) even after the earthquake, while the two other korean ISPs have awful (400+ average with spikes) latency. i love these ignorant people that generalize things without knowing anything 1) So what? People have blamed every single Korean loss this tournament on lag and you can't tell me that that's true if lag isn't a consistent thing. 2) Then isn't this the player's fault? There's $15,000 for first place alone so why not go somewhere with decent internet so you can play at optimum condition. If there's so much money on the line but you have shit internet, go somewhere better (just a random PC bang with the KT ISP or whatever). You can't just say "my internet's bad it's not my fault" when there are other options available. Nada apparently went to the oGs house to play, why couldn't the other Korean players find alternate places to play? It's a huge tournament with a lot on the line, if the players don't want to go somewhere else to play then its their own fault. Edit: I just found out that, apparently, every single Korean in the TSL was offered to go to the oGs house to play. If any of the players lost due to lag then it's not the lag's fault it's the players for being too cocky/lazy/stupid to take up the offer.
I never said it wasn't the players' fault for not preparing for the lag, but you were just making an ignorant generalization that since there was no lag in Nada's game, there was none in other games. and I corrected it. No idea why you think I'm saying "lag made the players lose and its not their fault bawww"...
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On March 28 2011 07:57 nufcrulz wrote:Im gonna be guessing that of all the Korean players invited, probably only those in oGs took the time to actually practice in the NA server and get use to the lag. Im guessing players for IM etc simply didnt take TL's advice and practice beforehand and assumed that lag wouldnt be a major problem. Either this or the oGs house simply does have a better ISP.. However hearing that the other Koreans were offered to go to the oGs house to play, then this is simply not a valid excuse.. Its like two teams going into a football match with each other and the other one decides to play 9 players vs the other team's 11, even though the team knew fully well it could field 11 players. If the other team wins, its still a valid victory and fully deserved.. even if you know that the 9 player team was at a disadvantage Basically what im trying to say is, please stop with the lag whining in the RO16.
I disagree with the idea that just because the loser is at fault for playing under bad conditions that it makes an opponent's win perfectly valid. You can't just say that. At its heart, a tournament is supposed to be about competition on an even playing field, and when the playing field isn't even, even if it's the loser's fault for hindering himself, it doesn't make the winner's victory just as valid as if everything was fair and even. If you want to use the word "valid", I argue that there are different levels of validity. For example, in the games we saw where lag was controversial, you could say that the victories were valid enough. And if, say, the KR players hypothetically played with only one hand, then victories would be even less valid. On the flip side, if the EU and KR players didn't experience any lag whatsoever, the victories would be at the strongest, surest side of the "validity" spectrum.
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I have no experience with SC2 so I can't talk about latency related issues but just reading the thread there is a clear stigma against a non-korean bias.
Let's not forget that it took Korea years to dominate BW and they are respected more for a work ethic and practice than rapid strategic evolution. It's in line with history for foreigners to dominate this early in the game. Save excuses for the future if it's really that important to you but don't detract from a players win. Especially such huge important wins.
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A random commenter on a this forum can't "detract from" someone's win. Unfair playing conditions could, which is why they're worth talking about.
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all i know is that in game 2 boxer was going for a marauder rush and it was OBVIOUS that he could not move them around, it seemed like he tried to micro them but nothing happened and then i had to witness that horrible scene of them running away while getting slaughtered by the zealots. i am sure there is some heavy lag for some of them and this very well effects the game, sometimes the whole strat is based on micro (like marauder rush) but i guess screwing up here and there for lag, kinda builds up and probably they felt really uncomfortable. yet, i do not think it's a lag matter, some games like qxc vs genius, it's genius screwing several times. i guess it depends from case to case but tbh i am not really a fan of this long-distance gaming tournaments such as TSL, because unfortunately... due to blizzard not taking care of cross-realm play it IS in fact really laggy. I have been playing on EU server a while back (from california) and it has been disgusting. Sure I could beat really low players but then when I had to play similar skilled level players it was SO much harder... sooo.. yeah I am not a big fan of these kinda things. Sure big upsets... but there are so many factors that there is no way to say that AdelScott > MVP and Goody > Nestea. When the koreans played with equal ping like at IEM, they raped everyone so I'd say let's stop making bold assumptions. The skill gap is not HUGE between EU and KR (I'd say more between NA and KR) but for some specific players there is a gap indeed (like MC, MVP, Nestea etc.) We will see how EU/NA players do against KR in korea for this GOM worldwide thing. The lineup for the World seems really strong so hopefully we will do well
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On March 28 2011 07:13 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:09 Namu wrote:On March 28 2011 07:02 Jimmeh wrote: Nada's banshee control today should hopefully put any doubts about lag aside. sigh... 1) lag is not a consistent thing, it depends on traffic at the time 2) it is known that certain ISPs have good latency to the NA server while others have awful latency. i heard KT has a pretty good latency (around 200 ms) even after the earthquake, while the two other korean ISPs have awful (400+ average with spikes) latency. i love these ignorant people that generalize things without knowing anything 1) So what? People have blamed every single Korean loss this tournament on lag and you can't tell me that that's true if lag isn't a consistent thing. 2) Then isn't this the player's fault? There's $15,000 for first place alone so why not go somewhere with decent internet so you can play at optimum condition. If there's so much money on the line but you have shit internet, go somewhere better (just a random PC bang with the KT ISP or whatever). You can't just say "my internet's bad it's not my fault" when there are other options available. Nada apparently went to the oGs house to play, why couldn't the other Korean players find alternate places to play? It's a huge tournament with a lot on the line, if the players don't want to go somewhere else to play then its their own fault. Edit: I just found out that, apparently, every single Korean in the TSL was offered to go to the oGs house to play. If any of the players lost due to lag then it's not the lag's fault it's the players for being too cocky/lazy/stupid to take up the offer.
^ Did you just say players that practise 10 hours a day and give up their "normal" life to pursue their passion are cocky/lazy/stupid just because they played from their own team house and maybe not travel 2 hours away to the oGs house? It's attitude like this that seriously peeves me off. Yes it is a huge tournament and I'm sure every single Korean players who were playing were very happy and excited to join. If you really watch the games, you can clearly see when a player gets outplayed (base on build orders and timing pushes : cue: Nestea / mvp's game etc) and when a player obviously could not micro due to the latency problems(cue, boxer's game, and a few other games where the movement of the army was weird based on previous games the way the Korean players play on GSL)
This also brings back the point of the NASL argument where even if some of the Korean players are invited, they might not want to play because they know there will be issues with latency.
All these assumptions etc, even though the Koreans lost, not one of them whined or made a big fuss saying they lost because of lag. Pretty sure they accepted the lost pretty gracefully and are still glad they were invited to TSL. You saying they are cocky lazy stupid ... makes me so angry. Sorry.
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On March 27 2011 14:47 Hot_Bid wrote: Also, I think people need to take a look at the FXOpen results as well. Koreans finished 1-2 in the first one and are on pace for 2 out of top 3 in the second one. It's played on NA and had top foreigners in it as well. The Koreans winning in those tournaments (oGsHero, oGsTheStC, oGsSuperNova, oGsZenio) have all not won GSLs. Are these players better than MVP and Nestea? Or did they simply practice more and take the tournament on NA more seriously?
I think people overestimate "overall level" and underestimate how preparation and care can help an "underdog" in a bo3, especially when players have weeks to prepare. It's not that weird for upsets to happen in these conditions.
This, and the fact that SC2 is a new game brings a lot of uncertainty. I think you nailed it with the preparation. Lag or whatnot is not really of the question, since as Jinro said, you can easily be accustomed to it if you practiced.
On March 28 2011 07:09 Namu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:02 Jimmeh wrote: Nada's banshee control today should hopefully put any doubts about lag aside. sigh... 1) lag is not a consistent thing, it depends on traffic at the time 2) it is known that certain ISPs have good latency to the NA server while others have awful latency. i heard KT has a pretty good latency (around 200 ms) even after the earthquake, while the two other korean ISPs have awful (400+ average with spikes) latency. this can also be seen as oGs players seemed to have minimal lag at FXOpen yesterday (for example Zenio/Supernova seemed to have no lag) while the prime players continuously got drop screens and lags many of the games. i love these ignorant people that generalize things without knowing anything
And for the love of god, please stop accusing other members of generalizing when you're saying "I heard". That's a very hypocrite statement and it's not very nice saying others are ignorant.
We are a community, not a bunch of high-school rivals. No need to throw punches.
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On March 28 2011 12:11 kellymilkies wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:13 Jimmeh wrote:On March 28 2011 07:09 Namu wrote:On March 28 2011 07:02 Jimmeh wrote: Nada's banshee control today should hopefully put any doubts about lag aside. sigh... 1) lag is not a consistent thing, it depends on traffic at the time 2) it is known that certain ISPs have good latency to the NA server while others have awful latency. i heard KT has a pretty good latency (around 200 ms) even after the earthquake, while the two other korean ISPs have awful (400+ average with spikes) latency. i love these ignorant people that generalize things without knowing anything 1) So what? People have blamed every single Korean loss this tournament on lag and you can't tell me that that's true if lag isn't a consistent thing. 2) Then isn't this the player's fault? There's $15,000 for first place alone so why not go somewhere with decent internet so you can play at optimum condition. If there's so much money on the line but you have shit internet, go somewhere better (just a random PC bang with the KT ISP or whatever). You can't just say "my internet's bad it's not my fault" when there are other options available. Nada apparently went to the oGs house to play, why couldn't the other Korean players find alternate places to play? It's a huge tournament with a lot on the line, if the players don't want to go somewhere else to play then its their own fault. Edit: I just found out that, apparently, every single Korean in the TSL was offered to go to the oGs house to play. If any of the players lost due to lag then it's not the lag's fault it's the players for being too cocky/lazy/stupid to take up the offer. ^ Did you just say players that practise 10 hours a day and give up their "normal" life to pursue their passion are cocky/lazy/stupid just because they played from their own team house and maybe not travel 2 hours away to the oGs house? It's attitude like this that seriously peeves me off. Yes it is a huge tournament and I'm sure every single Korean players who were playing were very happy and excited to join. If you really watch the games, you can clearly see when a player gets outplayed (base on build orders and timing pushes : cue: Nestea / mvp's game etc) and when a player obviously could not micro due to the latency problems(cue, boxer's game, and a few other games where the movement of the army was weird based on previous games the way the Korean players play on GSL) This also brings back the point of the NASL argument where even if some of the Korean players are invited, they might not want to play because they know there will be issues with latency. All these assumptions etc, even though the Koreans lost, not one of them whined or made a big fuss saying they lost because of lag. Pretty sure they accepted the lost pretty gracefully and are still glad they were invited to TSL. You saying they are cocky lazy stupid ... makes me so angry. Sorry.
^ Kelly's post = QFT.
The difference between 100ms and 500ms is an extremely large gap, even if some people don't believe in it. Although it isn't applicable in all instances of SC2, some periods of gameplay where instant reaction is needed just doesn't help.
Look at it this way. What can a player achieve with a reaction time of say 0.2 seconds? A lot. Delay the stimulus by 200ms (say from the EU player to NA server) then delay it by 500ms (NA to KR player) then delay it again by 200ms due to reaction. A whole second is lost. I could go further, but it doesn't need to be explained.
Play ANY FPS online and you will instantly see the difference between 50ms and 100ms. Why can't some people see there is a big gap between 100ms and even 300ms?
But grats to the Korean players who are gracious in their defeats, and grats to the players that beat them.
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If it's the korean ISP's fault i really hope all the teams switch to the better one. Then we might see better games, from what i've read TLO vs Nada was way better than saturdays games?
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On March 28 2011 14:18 karpo wrote: If it's the korean ISP's fault i really hope all the teams switch to the better one. Then we might see better games, from what i've read TLO vs Nada was way better than saturdays games?
Yeah, it seemed that NaDa wasn't suffering from much/any lag so all the play overall looked very crisp and high-level. Combine that with TLO's crazy strategies and innovative play and you have a pretty cool series.
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What I can say though, is that TSL players were offered the opportunity to delay their game and play on a different connection if they found the lag to be unplayable. As a last resort, we offered anyone to play at the oGs-TL house where we had confirmation from TL players that the lag was definitely in the playable range. Of the Korean players, only Nada (who does not normally reside at the oGs house) chose to exercise this option. Everyone else showed up, and just played their game.
This is key, we have to emphasize the point that options were offered to players. So regardless of what occurred, they had options.
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On March 28 2011 14:37 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 14:18 karpo wrote: If it's the korean ISP's fault i really hope all the teams switch to the better one. Then we might see better games, from what i've read TLO vs Nada was way better than saturdays games? Yeah, it seemed that NaDa wasn't suffering from much/any lag so all the play overall looked very crisp and high-level. Combine that with TLO's crazy strategies and innovative play and you have a pretty cool series.
Yes exactly
especially the Banshee micro in G3.
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On March 28 2011 07:13 Jimmeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 07:09 Namu wrote:On March 28 2011 07:02 Jimmeh wrote: Nada's banshee control today should hopefully put any doubts about lag aside. sigh... 1) lag is not a consistent thing, it depends on traffic at the time 2) it is known that certain ISPs have good latency to the NA server while others have awful latency. i heard KT has a pretty good latency (around 200 ms) even after the earthquake, while the two other korean ISPs have awful (400+ average with spikes) latency. i love these ignorant people that generalize things without knowing anything 1) So what? People have blamed every single Korean loss this tournament on lag and you can't tell me that that's true if lag isn't a consistent thing. 2) Then isn't this the player's fault? There's $15,000 for first place alone so why not go somewhere with decent internet so you can play at optimum condition. If there's so much money on the line but you have shit internet, go somewhere better (just a random PC bang with the KT ISP or whatever). You can't just say "my internet's bad it's not my fault" when there are other options available. Nada apparently went to the oGs house to play, why couldn't the other Korean players find alternate places to play? It's a huge tournament with a lot on the line, if the players don't want to go somewhere else to play then its their own fault. Edit: I just found out that, apparently, every single Korean in the TSL was offered to go to the oGs house to play. If any of the players lost due to lag then it's not the lag's fault it's the players for being too cocky/lazy/stupid to take up the offer.
Sorry, but there's no optimum conditions to be attained in an online tournament. A very entertaining show, but draw your conclusions based on even playing fields, where doubt over such cannot exist.
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When Jinro gives this description, is he factoring into things how the post-earthquake lag is outside the oGs house?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On March 28 2011 14:58 esaul17 wrote: When Jinro gives this description, is he factoring into things how the post-earthquake lag is outside the oGs house? No, I didnt and I guess I will have to test it to be able to do so >.< But finding somewhere to connect via KT really shouldnt be hard in Korea...
On March 28 2011 01:53 Wilko wrote: Is there actually a difference in latency on servers in general? (like is playing EU from EU different to playing KR from KR) I don't know much about server and latency-stuff, so i'm just curious KR servers are located in Seoul, and Korea is tiny so I would imagine that KR players in general get even better pings than Europeans/Americans when playing on their own server.
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I didn't watch the games but you can't practice FF'ing with lag -- that kind of FF'ing is more pokerstyle mindgames than FF'ing with low lag, more FPS-aim + timing + skill. So if someone lost because of bad FF's, yeah, blame it on lag. If someone lost a macro game, less likely to blame... however, sentries and ling/muta/bling micro are very lag sensitive so if those particular cases went wrong for koreans, then blaming them for not practicing with lag doesn't seem as feasible.
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TorcH reported that Nestea was pretty mad about the lag after his game, so maybe the lag did affect him pretty badly after all
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Who would have thought, the real answer is a compromise :O thank you Jinro
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I'm not a big believer that lag was a huge issue for the Koreans, however with the tournament tonight, we will have a great chance to see how foreigners stand on a "even" playing field.
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Good thing is that this will probably be a temporary problem. If the korean pro houses want to compete internationally they will probably switch internet providers after this.
I've thought about a solution from Blizzard for this but i don't know if it's viable.
Here goes: for sanctioned online tournament play they could have players connect to their local battle.net server and have blizzard tunnel their information straight to the equivalent remote b.net server. It shouldn't be a huge investment for blizzard to secure a decently fast and reliable provider across continents. Maybe even allow custom games cross continent using this method. Rated games could be left untouched to keep the US/EU/KR ladders intact.
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Thanks for the clarification.
1. The debate/whines/rebuttals have been was the Korean affected by the latency? Yes. 2. Did it influence their games? Yes 3. Does it mean the foreigners are better skill wise than the Korean because they won? Of course not. It doesn't mean they're worse than the Korean either. Currently indetermined.
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Stutter stepping is about 100 times more difficult when you are playing on a latency you aren't used to.
Also, the connection between the US and EU is SIGNIFICANTLY better than between US and KR, atleast on my line. (I'm talking 200-300 ms difference). And this was before the Earthquake, though I'm not sure if that affected the routing.
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Remember that for any FPS game online, having a low lag/latency is a HUGE priority and a difference in 50ms is also very noticeable, especially in competitive environment.
This is also a problem for people playing in the same country. Imagine how big of a difference that is when the lag goes up to 200-400ms ==>>> HUGE
It affected their games and contributed to their losses. Accept it.
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hehe, yeah include RTS too.
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did you see the TLO vs NaDa match? nada had perfect micro wiht his banshees he always was able to colak at the last second and stuff so why should he be able to do it when the other koreans are not? or rather why shouldnt the other koreans be able to micro as well as he did at the same conditions
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On March 28 2011 17:20 sVnteen wrote: did you see the TLO vs NaDa match? nada had perfect micro wiht his banshees he always was able to colak at the last second and stuff so why should he be able to do it when the other koreans are not? or rather why shouldnt the other koreans be able to micro as well as he did at the same conditions has been answered numerous times, the ping in the oGs house is relatively good.
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nada got lucky that lag didn't act up at that moment.
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On March 28 2011 17:08 Genome852 wrote: Stutter stepping is about 100 times more difficult when you are playing on a latency you aren't used to.
Also, the connection between the US and EU is SIGNIFICANTLY better than between US and KR, atleast on my line. (I'm talking 200-300 ms difference). And this was before the Earthquake, though I'm not sure if that affected the routing.
That's not true, depends from which part of europe to which part of US. I guess the european servers are in germany.
UK <--> Est coast is really nice.
Ukraine <--> West coast is terrible.
As I said in a previous post, in my opinion Europeans and Americans are generally used to a higher latency. I'm pretty sure that White Ra plays with a 100ms latency on the european servers all the time. While the koreans are used to their almost lan latency.
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On March 28 2011 00:59 R1CH wrote: This two second lag that keeps getting brought up is an obvious exaggeration, the game would freeze to sync if there was really that much latency involved. While I can't speak for every player, I know the connection from New York to Korea is 240ms. Bnet US is in California, so subtract 70ms from this for approximate good condition Bnet US to KR latency. Please stop with the hyperbole.
Regarding the earthquake that people think has affected connections, it is true that some routes were affected and the re-routing was less than optimal, causing 600+ms latency over affected routes. To the best of my knowledge, the affected routes were only affected for a period of several days shortly after the quake, during which time no TSL games were played. In addition, 600ms is borderline unplayable and would have hopefully been brought up during any testing.
With this and Jinro's post, how is this thread even still around? The people that know most about the issue, both from a players perspective AND a technical perspective have unequivocally weighed in on the same side. Thats enough for me, and should be enough for anybody else except maybe boxer's girlfriend(I have heard enough about boxer's girlfriend to last me the rest of my life jesus christ). Can someone also translate this to korean and post on the KR community threads about this issue? Maybe R1CH's voice wont have as much weight over there, but he is a TSL tech-wizard extremely well-placed to understand the issues at hand.
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On March 28 2011 17:25 zeru wrote:No, RTS games are not lag dependant like fps games, not even close, do you even remember the AoE days, hell, even SC1 days?
I remember playing sc1 on my 56K and then trying quake 1. Lol @ whoever would compare the 2 ^^
On topic, thx jinro for setting things straight.
Also I was wondering, @ IEM, was ACE playing from KR?
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On March 28 2011 18:35 Douillos wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 17:25 zeru wrote:On March 28 2011 17:17 Crt wrote: hehe, yeah include RTS too. No, RTS games are not lag dependant like fps games, not even close, do you even remember the AoE days, hell, even SC1 days? I remember playing sc1 on my 56K and then trying quake 1. Lol @ whoever would compare the 2 ^^ On topic, thx jinro for setting things straight. Also I was wondering, @ IEM, was ACE playing from KR?
At the recent IEM, all Players were on the stage, rewatch it - its really worth it.
+ Show Spoiler +Even 3 participating Koreans take top3 and 4th was moonglade with an amazing performance
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Germany2896 Posts
I define latency in this context as the time between you giving a command and you seeing the game react to that command on your computer. This is the only sensible definition in games where the network code works like in SC1/SC2.
Some Latency values in Starcraft 1 LAN had a latency of about 210ms. And micro worked very well. So nobody should complain.
Battle.net on low had about 450ms delay. The game was still playable at that latency. But you had to get used to it. Even when you were used to it, it made micro more difficult. Some of the more timing sensitive micro tricks might not work anymore.
Battle.net on extra high had about 900ms delay. Micro becomes close to impossible at this point.
In SC2 the latency has a lower bound of the ping from you to the battle.net server you play on. i.e. what counts is a round trip between you and the server. Your opponent's latency doesn't matter. In practice it will be a bit higher than the ping since it has to wait for the next game-frame to start in order to incorporate the command and needs to compensate for variances in the time the packet travel.
So if Koreans have a ping of up to 500ms to the US battle.net server they should be able to play decently provided they practice a bit with that latency. Still 500ms vs 200ms is a significant disadvantage. Below 250ms they shouldn't complain.
Perhaps some TL member from Korea can measure the delay when playing on the US server, just like sonuvbob did for SC1.
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On March 28 2011 18:19 m3rciless wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 00:59 R1CH wrote: This two second lag that keeps getting brought up is an obvious exaggeration, the game would freeze to sync if there was really that much latency involved. While I can't speak for every player, I know the connection from New York to Korea is 240ms. Bnet US is in California, so subtract 70ms from this for approximate good condition Bnet US to KR latency. Please stop with the hyperbole.
Regarding the earthquake that people think has affected connections, it is true that some routes were affected and the re-routing was less than optimal, causing 600+ms latency over affected routes. To the best of my knowledge, the affected routes were only affected for a period of several days shortly after the quake, during which time no TSL games were played. In addition, 600ms is borderline unplayable and would have hopefully been brought up during any testing. With this and Jinro's post, how is this thread even still around? The people that know most about the issue, both from a players perspective AND a technical perspective have unequivocally weighed in on the same side. Thats enough for me, and should be enough for anybody else except maybe boxer's girlfriend(I have heard enough about boxer's girlfriend to last me the rest of my life jesus christ). Can someone also translate this to korean and post on the KR community threads about this issue? Maybe R1CH's voice wont have as much weight over there, but he is a TSL tech-wizard extremely well-placed to understand the issues at hand.
This is not as clear cut as you make it out to be. Boxers girlfriend twittered about lag, someone mentioned that Nestea was upset by the latency and so on. Seems like the ping varies alot depending on provider. I can attest to that being quite common as a neighbor and me both played on the same WoW server yet i had 500+ ping and disconnects while he had >50 ping, and our traffic was only routed between sweden and the middle of europe. We had different providers and one router in my path to the server was faulty and caused the lag, while my friend had a different path.
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While im sure the latency plays a role, I'm watching the GSL World Team League atm and the foreigners are winning.
No one can claim that the GSL has lag issues, and the foreigners are still doing just fine against the koreans. I'm not down playing the lag here, I've played on US from EU and its definately not the same, the connection from KR are worse in general, and so yeah i can see it making a difference to them.
I can't however see how the lag is all it is, MC is considered to be the best player in the world atm, he won pretty easy, he practiced a strat that didn't need lan latency micro. If the other koreans didn't think ahead and use strats that didn't require the insane micro you can achieve with low latency, then they didn't prepare properly.
More over, you can always claim lag as an issue, we really don't know... we aren't the ones playing. Its perfectly possible that the koreans thought they would walk it anyways and were surprised by how good the foreigners actually are, they then blame the lag because after realising this fact, found themselves unprepared and unable to play at their absolute best because of the latency. Boxer, NaDa and MC all won, MC convincingly, Nada with amazing micro (you can't beat TLO if latency is affecting your micro). Boxer still won even with "2 seconds" of lag, which i dont believe for a second.
If they had the option to go to the oGs house, then why not take it? I thought most of the pro teams were based around seoul? I can understand them not taking the option if they live a couple hours away, but surely there is a PC bang nearby with good KR->US internet? If i were playing a tourney on the KR server the first thing I would do is find out where i can get a VPN for a day to give me the best connection possible, with the money behind these korean sc2 teams they could surely invest in a tunnel to the US server to make their latency issues less of an issue?
I'd love to see the koreans compete outside of KR more, if the lag really is this much of an issue, then spending a few dollars a month on a VPN tunnel is surely cost effective and smart for their furure prospects?
edit: I would also understand the lag whine if the foreigners were winning from behind, but most of the time they had more units, more bases and better upgrades..... no amount of micro wins that battle.
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On March 28 2011 18:19 m3rciless wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 00:59 R1CH wrote: This two second lag that keeps getting brought up is an obvious exaggeration, the game would freeze to sync if there was really that much latency involved. While I can't speak for every player, I know the connection from New York to Korea is 240ms. Bnet US is in California, so subtract 70ms from this for approximate good condition Bnet US to KR latency. Please stop with the hyperbole.
Regarding the earthquake that people think has affected connections, it is true that some routes were affected and the re-routing was less than optimal, causing 600+ms latency over affected routes. To the best of my knowledge, the affected routes were only affected for a period of several days shortly after the quake, during which time no TSL games were played. In addition, 600ms is borderline unplayable and would have hopefully been brought up during any testing. With this and Jinro's post, how is this thread even still around? The people that know most about the issue, both from a players perspective AND a technical perspective have unequivocally weighed in on the same side. Thats enough for me, and should be enough for anybody else except maybe boxer's girlfriend(I have heard enough about boxer's girlfriend to last me the rest of my life jesus christ). Can someone also translate this to korean and post on the KR community threads about this issue? Maybe R1CH's voice wont have as much weight over there, but he is a TSL tech-wizard extremely well-placed to understand the issues at hand.
Just because prominent figures on TL state certain things doesn't make those things the be-all end-all of the situation. Try thinking for yourself instead of just jumping on what other people say. It's been stated numerous times that the oGs-TL house seems to have a much better connection for KR-NA than other team houses. This is evidenced by how well oGs players are doing in the online tournaments (obviously, they are also very skillful, but so are other teams like Prime and IM whose members haven't been doing as well in online tournaments, and you can see noticeablely slower/sloppier play from those players while oGs players seem to be playing crisply and microing well as things should be)
I'm assuming Jinro's post was based off of his experience at the oGs-TL house, so his post did indeed clarify that any oGs player playing wouldn't be affected much by lag, and indeed it shows - MC's good micro against Ciara, NaDa's good banshee micro against TLO. But I'm pretty sure it doesn't say much of anything about the situation for players like MVP, BoxeR, or Nestea. Indeed, Nestea was reportedly angry about his lag problems, and I don't think he'd just make that up to save face (though you can paint Nestea as a whiny loser if you're that determined to tell yourself that lag wasn't an issue...)
Try looking at reality and weighing evidence for yourself to make up your mind on things. The statements from prominent TL figures, while helpful, are only pieces of the full picture.
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My 2 cents: In any competition, you want the participants to compete under equal conditions (and by equal, I mean EQUAL). This whole latency issue threatens to compromise that, and taint an otherwise great tournament. If both Nestea and Goody were lagging at 500 ms or more, for example, although it's not ideal for either player, it's still equal. The better player will win regardless, and we move on. If it's 500ms vs 250ms, however, now the game's tilted towards the less laggy player, because he can respond to changes in the game faster than the other.
Shrugging it off like this and saying that it's no big deal is, in my opinion, the wrong approach to this problem. It's the fundamental job of the tournament organizers and Blizzard to provide each player with equal opportunities to win. Just brushing it off like this might have the effect of blowing the problem out of proportions, especially in Korea.
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On March 28 2011 21:02 jpak wrote: My 2 cents: In any competition, you want the participants to compete under equal conditions (and by equal, I mean EQUAL). This whole latency issue threatens to compromise that, and taint an otherwise great tournament. If both Nestea and Goody were lagging at 500 ms or more, for example, although it's not ideal for either player, it's still equal. The better player will win regardless, and we move on. If it's 500ms vs 250ms, however, now the game's tilted towards the less laggy player, because he can respond to changes in the game faster than the other.
Shrugging it off like this and saying that it's no big deal is, in my opinion, the wrong approach to this problem. It's the fundamental job of the tournament organizers and Blizzard to provide each player with equal opportunities to win. Just brushing it off like this might have the effect of blowing the problem out of proportions, especially in Korea.
I kind of feel like letting the KR players choose whether or not to play at the oGs house was a mistake, since when they opted to play at their own team houses they seemed to experience lag issues. Maybe if we invite non-oGs KR players to the next TSL, it should be made clear that playing at the oGs house is a requirement or something, to ensure better connections.
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On March 28 2011 20:38 HolyArrow wrote:
Just because prominent figures on TL state certain things doesn't make those things the be-all end-all of the situation. Try thinking for yourself instead of just jumping on what other people say. It's been stated numerous times that the oGs-TL house seems to have a much better connection for KR-NA than other team houses. This is evidenced by how well oGs players are doing in the online tournaments (obviously, they are also very skillful, but so are other teams like Prime and IM whose members haven't been doing as well in online tournaments, and you can see noticeablely slower/sloppier play from those players while oGs players seem to be playing crisply and microing well as things should be)
I'm assuming Jinro's post was based off of his experience at the oGs-TL house, so his post did indeed clarify that any oGs player playing wouldn't be affected much by lag, and indeed it shows - MC's good micro against Ciara, NaDa's good banshee micro against TLO. But I'm pretty sure it doesn't say much of anything about the situation for players like MVP, BoxeR, or Nestea. Indeed, Nestea was reportedly angry about his lag problems, and I don't think he'd just make that up to save face (though you can paint Nestea as a whiny loser if you're that determined to tell yourself that lag wasn't an issue...)
Try looking at reality and weighing evidence for yourself to make up your mind on things. The statements from prominent TL figures, while helpful, are only pieces of the full picture.
This is not really true. It has NOT been stated that the oGs house has better latency than the other teams houses(at least by anyone in the know). It has only been stated that the latency at the oGs house is fine. Outside of boxer's girlfriends obviously exaggerated" 2 second delay" there really hasn't been any information about the other players' latency conditions.
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How does SC2 handle latency, i know the RTS Supream Commander played all client computers at -400ms to smooth out internet lag/delay.
After seeing the games today i think the top players from each hemispere are pretty close in skill and ability. The biggest differnece i can see is that the Koreans like to go for the "fast kill" and try to end the game within 8 mins with cheese /timing attack , Where as the "foreigners" like to macro heavy and take it to mid/late game.
The bigger maps are really starting to make SC2 evolve into entertaining games which is good for spectators , which is whats its about isnt it. After all who wants to watch 8 min all ins like a lot of the previous GSL finals.
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On March 28 2011 22:11 PHILtheTANK wrote: This is not really true. It has NOT been stated that the oGs house has better latency than the other teams houses(at least by anyone in the know). It has only been stated that the latency at the oGs house is fine. Outside of boxer's girlfriends obviously exaggerated" 2 second delay" there really hasn't been any information about the other players' latency conditions.
Wasn't there lag noticeable in Boxer's G2? The game where he proxied his marauder push, I was kinda expecting Boxer to take some probes down with him if he was going to lose those retreating marauders anyways. I guess we could say it was a player mistake then, which I find slightly hard to believe, as it is Boxer...he would micro anything.
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at the IEM the koreans surprised many players with their fe builds and aggressive playstyle. people got unconfident and therefore lost. but in these weeks the non-korean players adapted very fast to this builds, now they play them, too (e.g. socke), and know how to counter them. to be honest, sc1 was never very popular outside from korea, EU/NA rather played cs, wc3 and this sort of games, but not sc1. this has changed with sc2, its the online game no1 worldwide. things develop much faster in EU/NA, because there are many more players and tournaments. The head start korea had because of their sc1 experience is gone now, as we see. and its not about lag, just look at the GSL WC atm. Makes sense, doesnt it? SC2 is no magic, its a game where you get good at when you got talent and experience. and these things are on par all over the world.
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if anyone had to write a post on this, Jinro is definitely one of the best people to do so, great stuff
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Someone should just interview Cella about it I assume he has the most experience with playing on the NA server from Korea.
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I do feel that this should have been brought up later, after the conclusion of TSL 3 for instance. TSL 3 took the initiative as the first major, truly international tournament in a international scene that is booming too fast for anyone(without huge financial backing, e.g. gsl wc) to have carried it out perfectly. It doesn't do justice to all the effort that has been put into making TSL 3 happen.
That being said, as an owner of a SEA account, I've played hundreds of games on both NA and SEA servers from Singapore which I would propose is quite a similar situation. The difference between NA and SEA is very evident, it truly does have detrimental effects on your play. However, as many other have brought up before in this thread, it's all about your comfort level while playing, and you can certainly get used to the difference. This was the case for myself and I would assume many others, especially those in NA who compete seriously and have account on the KR servers. I certainly believe that whatever flashy "stutterstep" micro, amongst others, that the audiences ogle at are still very much doable with practice. It really all comes down to whether the players are willing to devote time to it.
Then again, maybe we will soon see an era where pro-gamers are flown around the world weekly, and we are treated to the highest level of competition. But until then, we should all be grateful to the efforts TL and other event organisers have invested for our entertainment.
My 2 & a half cents
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Braavos36362 Posts
On March 28 2011 23:09 Fawkes wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 22:11 PHILtheTANK wrote: This is not really true. It has NOT been stated that the oGs house has better latency than the other teams houses(at least by anyone in the know). It has only been stated that the latency at the oGs house is fine. Outside of boxer's girlfriends obviously exaggerated" 2 second delay" there really hasn't been any information about the other players' latency conditions. Wasn't there lag noticeable in Boxer's G2? The game where he proxied his marauder push, I was kinda expecting Boxer to take some probes down with him if he was going to lose those retreating marauders anyways. I guess we could say it was a player mistake then, which I find slightly hard to believe, as it is Boxer...he would micro anything. I don't think pointing to a particular thing in the games is proof theres lag. Players make mistakes. By your logic Nada had more lag in the GSL WC games than in his games in TSL, because his banshee control was better vs TLO than against TT1. If the Nada vs TT1 game happened in TSL you'd be making the same argument about "finding it hard to believe Nada lost a banshee to TT1". I think what fans need to get over is that certain players are infallible and that any mistake in TSL must be lag. That's just not the case. Players can make mistakes, even MC :p
That's not to say lag doesn't exist, it does. It's just not everything.
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On March 27 2011 09:55 Seiyu wrote: The most USERS from here don't understand the huge difference that LAG does. Here in Brazil the delay is like 150ms, because the servers are actually in USA, you'll know what's is lag when you press a key to update your building but it's1.5 sec to it actually happen's, then you'll move your camera to another place but when you back to your building you'll see that ...
1.5 seconds is 1500 ms, not 150.
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if its true that the servers are located in usa, does NA players playing in KR server have same latency as KR players playing in NA??
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France12466 Posts
On March 30 2011 05:59 JuJuZerg wrote: if its true that the servers are located in usa, does NA players playing in KR server have same latency as KR players playing in NA?? No. The latency is not only affected by the distance (but longer distance usually means more latency) but also by the quality of the lines and other stuffs. So its affected by the provider as well (on a lesser extent)
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On March 29 2011 19:30 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2011 23:09 Fawkes wrote:On March 28 2011 22:11 PHILtheTANK wrote: This is not really true. It has NOT been stated that the oGs house has better latency than the other teams houses(at least by anyone in the know). It has only been stated that the latency at the oGs house is fine. Outside of boxer's girlfriends obviously exaggerated" 2 second delay" there really hasn't been any information about the other players' latency conditions. Wasn't there lag noticeable in Boxer's G2? The game where he proxied his marauder push, I was kinda expecting Boxer to take some probes down with him if he was going to lose those retreating marauders anyways. I guess we could say it was a player mistake then, which I find slightly hard to believe, as it is Boxer...he would micro anything. I don't think pointing to a particular thing in the games is proof theres lag. Players make mistakes. By your logic Nada had more lag in the GSL WC games than in his games in TSL, because his banshee control was better vs TLO than against TT1. If the Nada vs TT1 game happened in TSL you'd be making the same argument about "finding it hard to believe Nada lost a banshee to TT1". I think what fans need to get over is that certain players are infallible and that any mistake in TSL must be lag. That's just not the case. Players can make mistakes, even MC :p That's not to say lag doesn't exist, it does. It's just not everything.
Yeah, it was hilarious when people were like, MVP LOST A MARINE OMG LOOK AT THAT LAG. Then when he lost a reaper they were like, that would NEVER happen at GSL. Only bronze league kids lose reapers.
Then when Nada lost that banshee at the Korea vs World, that was the first thing I began to think about. It's funny how defensive people can get about why their favorite player lost, and the excuses just start flowing.
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To bad SC2 doesn't always play with 150-200ms. Blizz should have made system so that if you have for instance 75ms the server would put an additional 75ms delay on everything so that unless you go over that 150-200 whatever limit blizz could set it would be the same for everyone. Yes the game would feel slow at first but as Jinro pointed out it's something you get used to.
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Thank you, Jinro, for explaining wht was on everyone's minds!
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Anyone know how the NASL will deal with these latency issues, since there are Koreans, Euros, and NAs in the league?
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I suggested that they make all the Koreans play at the oGs-TL house, though that may be asking for a lot since Kelly's post indicated that that could easily be a trip that takes 2+ hours...
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On March 27 2011 22:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 11:32 suejak wrote:On March 27 2011 11:30 BigMaiko wrote: nestea played really shitty, and you can´t blame getting roach speed just 400 years late in game somewhat of thing about latency. even the superlong burrowed roaches on shakuras, that was so stupid.... it felt like he was nervous.... You mean the burrowed roaches that kept going and going after Goody's tanks open-fired on them? The burrowed roaches that, after being fired upon, kept going towards the tanks for another couple of volleys? The burrowed roaches that then, upon making it near the tanks and hellions, suddenly turned around to run and kept being fired on? The ~40 food of burrowed roaches that died without killing anything at all? Without even unburrowing? Yeah... You don't think that was latency? Of course that wasnt latency lol That was him not realizing how many units were actually there and then going "fuck it". Huh? How was that not a lag spike? Nestea didn't even unburrow. He lost 40 food over a longish period purely by crawling in towards tanks, going right under them, and then crawling away from the tanks. The best zerg in the world doesn't do shit like that.
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I think what a lot of players in NA don't realize is how playing from another country across the globe is actually a huge disadvantage. It's not just Starcraft2, try any other online game, you will lag so much everything has a huge delay.
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On March 30 2011 15:45 suejak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 22:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On March 27 2011 11:32 suejak wrote:On March 27 2011 11:30 BigMaiko wrote: nestea played really shitty, and you can´t blame getting roach speed just 400 years late in game somewhat of thing about latency. even the superlong burrowed roaches on shakuras, that was so stupid.... it felt like he was nervous.... You mean the burrowed roaches that kept going and going after Goody's tanks open-fired on them? The burrowed roaches that, after being fired upon, kept going towards the tanks for another couple of volleys? The burrowed roaches that then, upon making it near the tanks and hellions, suddenly turned around to run and kept being fired on? The ~40 food of burrowed roaches that died without killing anything at all? Without even unburrowing? Yeah... You don't think that was latency? Of course that wasnt latency lol That was him not realizing how many units were actually there and then going "fuck it". Huh? How was that not a lag spike? Nestea didn't even unburrow. He lost 40 food over a longish period purely by crawling in towards tanks, going right under them, and then crawling away from the tanks. The best zerg in the world doesn't do shit like that.
Players make mistakes. It's not always lag.
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I have read many of the post in this thread not all and i dont know if this belongs here. Me and a friend were talking about the tsl and he believes the koreans r far ahead of the rest of the world i disagree. The koreans are better in general but that is because the average korean on the ladder is better then the average na or eu player that is a known fact for now. As my friend pointed out from bw days that there was snipers sent out to beat certain players like, Stork, Bisu, Flash, Jaedong and so on. The foreigners have many vods to watch and tweek their builds like the snipers did to the best counter with lag playing an effect and the ability to tweek builds gave the foreigners an advantage. I still believe that the koreans are not that far ahead of the foreigners and with time and the new leagues starting up in NA i expect that we will all be on the same level n the near future.
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do you think that practicing in one region's latency will take away from of the benefits from practicing in another region's latency? for instance if the korean's need to practice for GSL and also have some europe online tournaments coming up, would practicing on europe region affect their skill on Korea region? if so, how would you deal with this?
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On March 30 2011 16:20 zerglingsfolife wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2011 15:45 suejak wrote:On March 27 2011 22:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On March 27 2011 11:32 suejak wrote:On March 27 2011 11:30 BigMaiko wrote: nestea played really shitty, and you can´t blame getting roach speed just 400 years late in game somewhat of thing about latency. even the superlong burrowed roaches on shakuras, that was so stupid.... it felt like he was nervous.... You mean the burrowed roaches that kept going and going after Goody's tanks open-fired on them? The burrowed roaches that, after being fired upon, kept going towards the tanks for another couple of volleys? The burrowed roaches that then, upon making it near the tanks and hellions, suddenly turned around to run and kept being fired on? The ~40 food of burrowed roaches that died without killing anything at all? Without even unburrowing? Yeah... You don't think that was latency? Of course that wasnt latency lol That was him not realizing how many units were actually there and then going "fuck it". Huh? How was that not a lag spike? Nestea didn't even unburrow. He lost 40 food over a longish period purely by crawling in towards tanks, going right under them, and then crawling away from the tanks. The best zerg in the world doesn't do shit like that. Players make mistakes. It's not always lag. Yeah, it's hard to tell. TSL3, being an online tournament with serious lag problems, is always going to have its results called into question.
At least we know now that the foreigners can bring it. Can Goody bring it to Nestea? Not so sure about that. But at least foreigners in general can bring it.
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What do you guys think about that:
I feel the game is a LOT like poker. You have to gamble very often and u just cant prepare vs every timing or all in. I feel like 5 years later we will still not have players like flash who are just better than everyone.
sc2 skill ceiling is not high enough and there are too many random factors ass well... I dont want to give a specific example. I just want to know if other guys feel the same way especially better players?
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It honestly sucks that issues like these have to be addressed, even by players in the tournament, in this case Jinro.
But in terms of smart, healthy discussion, why are people so quick to downplay lag issues? Practising more to get used to latency still doesn't account for fair play when your opponent can react a split second faster to dodge that one or two hits.
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I'm going to sum up Jinro's comments for any Blizzard employee reading this:
1) ALLOW US TO USE THINGS LIKE HAMACHI SERVERS TO PLAY 2) GIVE US LAN SETTINGS
T_T
Yes players do make mistakes. Sometimes many mistakes. However, on high and extra high latency the reaction/response time units make compared to when you made the keystrokes is very noticeable.
Precisely Xpace.
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Two things:
1) The GOM World stuff going on now proves that foreigners can compete with Koreans. 2) Watching the APM tabs shown at the beginnings of the games, you can see it drop sharply or to 0 several times for some players. I don't know if that's "lag" but for some players the pause was 2 game seconds or so. Though most games seemed fine, here is a list of games that I thought was particularly bad:
oGsMC Set 1 FruitDealer Set 1 LiquidJinro Set 1 * one of the worst actually, and he is not complaining IMMVP Set 2 LiquidRet Set 3
Though maybe they are just scratching their noses?
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On March 30 2011 15:45 suejak wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2011 22:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On March 27 2011 11:32 suejak wrote:On March 27 2011 11:30 BigMaiko wrote: nestea played really shitty, and you can´t blame getting roach speed just 400 years late in game somewhat of thing about latency. even the superlong burrowed roaches on shakuras, that was so stupid.... it felt like he was nervous.... You mean the burrowed roaches that kept going and going after Goody's tanks open-fired on them? The burrowed roaches that, after being fired upon, kept going towards the tanks for another couple of volleys? The burrowed roaches that then, upon making it near the tanks and hellions, suddenly turned around to run and kept being fired on? The ~40 food of burrowed roaches that died without killing anything at all? Without even unburrowing? Yeah... You don't think that was latency? Of course that wasnt latency lol That was him not realizing how many units were actually there and then going "fuck it". Huh? How was that not a lag spike? Nestea didn't even unburrow. He lost 40 food over a longish period purely by crawling in towards tanks, going right under them, and then crawling away from the tanks. The best zerg in the world doesn't do shit like that.
I remember a ZvT in one of the open GSLs where Nestea did something that was almost exactly the same as that, flying mutas directly over marines and not turning them to avoid the group effectively losing him the game. Moreover, a couple of tank volleys is way more time than latency would account for...
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On March 30 2011 16:20 zerglingsfolife wrote:Show nested quote +On March 30 2011 15:45 suejak wrote:On March 27 2011 22:16 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On March 27 2011 11:32 suejak wrote:On March 27 2011 11:30 BigMaiko wrote: nestea played really shitty, and you can´t blame getting roach speed just 400 years late in game somewhat of thing about latency. even the superlong burrowed roaches on shakuras, that was so stupid.... it felt like he was nervous.... You mean the burrowed roaches that kept going and going after Goody's tanks open-fired on them? The burrowed roaches that, after being fired upon, kept going towards the tanks for another couple of volleys? The burrowed roaches that then, upon making it near the tanks and hellions, suddenly turned around to run and kept being fired on? The ~40 food of burrowed roaches that died without killing anything at all? Without even unburrowing? Yeah... You don't think that was latency? Of course that wasnt latency lol That was him not realizing how many units were actually there and then going "fuck it". Huh? How was that not a lag spike? Nestea didn't even unburrow. He lost 40 food over a longish period purely by crawling in towards tanks, going right under them, and then crawling away from the tanks. The best zerg in the world doesn't do shit like that. Players make mistakes. It's not always lag. Its not always lag but its not always mistakes either it goes both ways, i am in no way trying to say that every mistake a korean made was because of lag, but there are points were it is quite obvious , had the koreans prepared better im sure the mistakes would be minimal, read boxers interview that came out today he talks about how the difference is negligible if you take the time to practice with it but had you not prepared properly it feels like running with sandbags tied to your legs as he put it. Im sure koreans will be more prepared in the future though i am expecting great things from them at the NASL and im sure they will be far more used to the latency by then.
Also no matter what even after getting used to the lag, if a lag spike occurs its still going to put you at a disadvantage if it happens at the wrong time, but as long as you prepare accordinlgy i think for the most part we will see koreans play the to the standards we are usually used to watching. Regardless of weather lag was a big factor or not in some of the KR EU TSL games i think most would agree that the korean players did not play to their full potential , whatever the reason may be.
Also as we have seen in the best of 3 format so far at the GSLWC besides Dimaga no other player made it through the first round in the KR vs World best of 3's. Im not trying to take anything away from dimaga as he played great but ZVZ is pretty volatile at times kind of like PVP so we will have to see how he does against Hoseo_san, but overall the actual tournament has seemed very one sided in the koreans favor even against players practicing in korea, i was suprised at how well anypro did vs jinro. I dont think anyone is going to deny the fact that although the foreigners have had a very good showing so far koreans are still ahead in terms of skill (not by as much as we may have thought though) as time progresses they will continue to get further ahead unless the western world somehow adapts to korean like training regimen. I think koreans would have done alot better in the TSL had they adapted to the lag (their fault) and prepared against their opponents properly, or if they had home server advantage.
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Seeing the GSL World Tournament results I think we can say that Top Foreigners can compete with Top Koreans, yet the Koreans are still some steps ahead, especially when it counts. And I think we can also agree, that GoOdy doesnt beat Nestea under normal conditions. While the skill difference between Top Foreigners and Top Koreans isnt nearly as big as it was in SC BW the amount of players on that level still differs immensely. While in Korea there are still lots of players on that level, like Losira, Bomber, Zenio, Squirtle, Supernova, Alicia, just to name a few, I dont see many Foreigners besides the ones attending the tournament who can really play on that level. (under normal conditions) So for now I think Moon is still right saying: "Koreans own white dudes" There are exceptions, but the majority of Koreans is still quite a bit ahead of the majority of foreigners.
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On April 01 2011 21:28 Stamper wrote: Seeing the GSL World Tournament results I think we can say that Top Foreigners can compete with Top Koreans, yet the Koreans are still some steps ahead, especially when it counts. And I think we can also agree, that GoOdy doesnt beat Nestea under normal conditions. While the skill difference between Top Foreigners and Top Koreans isnt nearly as big as it was in SC BW the amount of players on that level still differs immensely. While in Korea there are still lots of players on that level, like Losira, Bomber, Zenio, Squirtle, Supernova, Alicia, just to name a few, I dont see many Foreigners besides the ones attending the tournament who can really play on that level. (under normal conditions) So for now I think Moon is still right saying: "Koreans own white dudes" There are exceptions, but the majority of Koreans is still quite a bit ahead of the majority of foreigners.
no i dont agree ... goody CAN beat nestea under normal conditions ... and wow Huk 1-2 jinro plays rly bad dimaga lost winning position and white-ra lost in pvp his weakest matchup vs 4gate all ins and that you call "being ahead" ? i call it lucky and tsl its the other luck around
the majority of the koreans ... you cant say that its just there are very few nonkoreans playing same amount as the koreans so they are just more ... not better
ps: nestea could not rly have lag issue vs goody cause goody not even damn move out of his base if he no need its like boxer say it rly doesnt matter
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Not really agreeing with using GSL results to back up these players skill levels. You lose to the eventual champion in RO32 and it makes you look bad when it is not the case. And a BO3 isn't a great skill indicator in itself. With some luck you can beat a better player. The better player may beat you many more times in the long run. All you need is a set of 2-3 games that will work in your favor. This is all due to variation in player performance.
2s is a lot of time. Even 200ms is really bad. That's more time standing in psi-storms, more time getting mutas killed from turrets because you couldn't turn them around fast enough. You can't just "get used to it." I know people are so eager to shoe horn in international online competition, but until network infrastructure world wide improves we won't be seeing low latencies globally.
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I find much of this talk about 500ms+ response time to be a bit absurd. For example, I live in Toronto, and my ping to Seoul is under 400ms. The distance from Toronto to Seoul is greater than anywhere in Korea to California. Which logically means that the ping from Korean players to the US Servers is under 400ms.
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On April 02 2011 05:44 zakmaa wrote: I find much of this talk about 500ms+ response time to be a bit absurd. For example, I live in Toronto, and my ping to Seoul is under 400ms. The distance from Toronto to Seoul is greater than anywhere in Korea to California. Which logically means that the ping from Korean players to the US Servers is under 400ms. Thats a pretty random statement, are you pinging the blizzard server in korea? i doubt it, if your just using pingtest in korea those servers are lightning fast so they can test exactly how fast your connection is and arent anywhere near accurate to the amount it could be on the blizzard server during peak hours in korea, plus that doesnt take into account lag spikes, and 400ms is huge thats almost half a second delay anyways wich would be more then enough to change anyones gameplay for the worse significantly.
Also Idra was talking on state of the game yesterday and mentioned how he thought the amount of people trying to downplay the lag in korea was pretty funny in his opinion he didnt think many of those games would have the same results had the koreans been in lan like settings, so i do think alot of people are playing down the lag, although i heard at the OGS house they are using a korean Telecom connection and its actually not too bad lag wise where as IM and possibly other houses could be using a different internet service provider wich is considerably worse. I could tell it was worse in some games then others so it made sense. I think with some practice the lag could be manageable but it will never be optimal going from korea to EU or NA obviously, also i know right after the earthquake it was alot worse some people said so hopefully they have fixed that and the lag can be brought down to a manageable level so we can see some of our favourite koreans perform some of their micro intensive builds that we know and love
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In the end there is STILL lag issues in the games and its already said that EU to NA connection is better then KR to NA.
And saying that they just need to get used to the delay is not going to bring out 100% of their potential. True they can get their build timing and production better with practice on the NA servers but what about stuff like micro, positioning and poking? Imagine running into siege line only to pull your army back seconds later losing alot more then you should have. That is something practice on NA servers does NOT fix. Practice on other servers only helps with your timing but stuff like reaction based micro is not something you can fully fix by practicing playing with delay.
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On April 11 2011 05:52 kennz wrote: In the end there is STILL lag issues in the games and its already said that EU to NA connection is better then KR to NA.
Where in EU to where in NA? Where in KR to where in NA? By how much?
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I can't give you numbers but its already been said by numerous people as well as Jinro if you read the first post..
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well, as for countrys like france, germany or sweden the latency to NA is ok - Ukraine and western Russia are worse by a lot actually.
I have no idea how it is compared to korea, obv. standard EU is better.
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On April 11 2011 06:51 kennz wrote: I can't give you numbers but its already been said by numerous people as well as Jinro if you read the first post.. The first post said nothing about the lag from say, the Ukraine to the NA servers.
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On April 07 2011 00:02 cheesemaster wrote: Also Idra was talking on state of the game yesterday and mentioned how he thought the amount of people trying to downplay the lag in korea was pretty funny in his opinion he didnt think many of those games would have the same results had the koreans been in lan like settings This is compelling news until you remember that making excuses for why games were lost is what Idra does.
Is lag a factor in these games? Undoubtedly. Is it the sole factor in determining who wins and who loses? No way. As mentioned above, it's more of a cumulative effect where some discomfort with lag leads to discomfort in other parts of your game, you get thrown off your usual plan, you start making mistakes (small or large), things snowball. That example of the burrowed roaches getting blown away by tanks and accomplishing absolutely nothing for it? That's not lag - that was far too much time under fire to blame on delayed response. That was player error. Perhaps it was exacerbated by lag, but lag didn't cause the problem there. I'm not going to speculate as to why that player messed up in that way - I don't know what he was thinking at the time, where he was focused, etc. - but it's not hard to watch that activity and come to the conclusion that the player just made a huge mistake. These things happen.
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I got the feeling that Korean ex SC1 players don't have that much experience playing KR-NA or KR-EU games as they trained KR-KR mainly SC1 times. So they:
1. Underestimated foreigners OR 2. Didn't see lag as issue OR 3. Didn't care
I was hoping when TSL3 was making invites that more WC3 based players would been picked (picked none) because they are very experienced lag based play (as wc3 games was used to be KR-EU) and they know how to deal these kind of things. For example, Moon or Lyn would have been good picks.
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Russian Federation154 Posts
I'm play on NA server,when was beta,didn't feel any unplayble lags,but ofc ping on EU, much better ;p and i'm from Siberia
Трассировка маршрута к us.battle.net [12.129.242.40] с максимальным числом прыжков 30:
1 <1 мс <1 мс <1 мс 217.195.208.82 2 2 ms <1 мс 2 ms 217.195.211.81 3 4 ms 4 ms 4 ms 212.44.133.69 4 49 ms 49 ms 49 ms mx01.Stockholm.gldn.net [194.186.157.62] 5 49 ms 49 ms 49 ms 64.214.150.73 6 206 ms 206 ms 206 ms 192.205.37.93 7 229 ms 250 ms 229 ms cr1.la2ca.ip.att.net [12.123.30.18] 8 222 ms 229 ms 221 ms cr84.la2ca.ip.att.net [12.123.30.249] 9 228 ms 229 ms 227 ms gar5.la2ca.ip.att.net [12.122.129.25] 10 222 ms 222 ms 222 ms 12.122.255.74 11 222 ms 222 ms 222 ms mdf001c7613r0003-gig-10-1.lax1.attens.net [12.12 9.193.242] 12 * * * Превышен интервал ожидания для запроса. 13 * * * Превышен интервал ожидания для запроса. 14 * * * Превышен интервал ожидания для запроса.
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As far as i know Siberia uses a landline to Europe, while Asia is connected to US with an undersea - connection. So I doubt you can compare that. Here from Vietnam i get a 300-400 ping to EU and 200-300 to US. I guess thats quite comparable to Korea. (as both countries should use the same connection to US) I dont mind if Foreigners beat Koreans if they play better and I really liked the results of the GOM World Tournament. What bothers me is the quality of the TSL games. All the Koreans besides MC (who played vs Ciara first round and then in RO16 against White-Ra who was in Korea) showed really horrible micro and looked completely off their game. Sure, it's possible that all of them just had a bad day or didn't prepare enough, but it still sucks to see MVP losing Marines and Reapers to Probes or NaDa flying a Banshee into Missile Turrets taking 3 hits before it turns around or running into tanks and pulling back too late. No, I don't have proof the lag is the reason, but the many cases of horrible performances suggest it is. Again, I don't wanna take anything away from the foreigners and I don't want to protect the oh so sacred Koreans, it just bothers me to see games like that in a tournament that was supposed to show amazing ones. It might be better to not invite any Koreans or let the players play it out server wise and just invite the top 8 to an offine event (or make the whole thing an offline event, but i guess that would be too expensive).
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I just did a test at pingtest.net and although the actual ping number you get from that site will be nowhere near accurate of the ping in a game (ie playing cross servers on battle.net the ping would be much higher) One of the things that was interesting was that there was significant packet loss while doing the ping test. To my understanding packet loss will result in lag spikes and this test is pretty much in the most ideal conditions getting as i am pinging a very fast server in korea that is supposed to calculate the very best ping you will have.
I could see the Koreans having a fairly hard time during certain points of any game as if there is packet loss it will result in the game stuttering. Also my ping was at around the 300 mark so that is pretty bad already but i would say it would be much higher on battle.net. If yoou look at the comparison like this, so when i test my ping on my home server it sits at around 10-20 wich is really really quite good, now if i log on to wow say ( a battle net game where i can check my ping) it shows that i have anywhere between 90-170ms depending on certain things such as time of day. I dont think that means i would be getting 5-10x 300ms on the korean server and also there internet is much faster although my internet is 25mbps and that is more than fast enough to run any internet game with negligible latency. So regardless id say the koreans could be playing with anywhere fromm 300(in the very best possible situation) to up to 1000ms. That is quite substantial.
You could tell during the NASL that rainbow was suffering fromm far far less than optimal latency as when the server isnt responding your ping is probably in the thousands somewhere. I feel that in some games it is defenetly manageable and in other games there are spikes that make players make mistakes here and there (probably most common) but there have been a few games ive seen between TSL and NASL that have been beyond that where it seems like the player is experiencing seconds of delay at certain points. I dont think there is anyway to solve this right now and i would honestly prefer if koreans just played in live tournaments until technology allows us to play cross servers with little to no packet loss or ping delays. It honestly just makes them look like worse players than they actually are and its disheartening for them and their fans. NASL will be a good indicator of how bad it actually is, so far there was at least 1 game that was beyond playable for Rainbow and at least 1 game where spikes where a problem (ensnare move commanding his army into collosus) poor guy was probably frantically clicking the a key and nothing was happening >< this was possibly after he was in a tough spot but it still sucks to see it happen.
I dont think koreans should participate in online tournaments any time in the near future it makes them look far more inferior than their live play results indicate. As much as id love to see my favourite korean players play more games especially against foreigners I think only live tournaments will provide a satisfactory indicator of their skill in regards to the rest of the world. And as you can see so far IEM and GOMTV WC were dominated pretty heavily by koreans, online tournaments will not hold any bearings in terms of results for me, if the koreans do well that is just more of an attestment to their skill as in many cases they will be playing at a disadvantage. Im not tryin to take anything away from the skill of foreigners but as of now live tournament results and online tournament results dont matchup.
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Jinro does good in GSL. Huk made Code S. Idra did good in GSL.
Yet they still lose in offline events to other "foreigners".
Now tell me... Why do you think this should not happen to "true" Koreans? Do they go into super sayan mode as soon as they face another foreigner then Idra/Huk/Jinro or what?
Ah... I know it: Because of your SC/BW bias.
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On April 14 2011 19:04 Velr wrote: Jinro does good in GSL. Huk made Code S. Idra did good in GSL.
Yet they still lose in offline events to other "foreigners".
Now tell me... Why do you think this should not happen to "true" Koreans? Do they go into super sayan mode as soon as they face another foreigner then Idra/Huk/Jinro or what?
Ah... I know it: Because of your SC/BW bias. Im not saying koreans are for sure gonna perform well in live tournaments, but so far from the small amount of offline tournaments we have, they have done well. Jinro has for sure been in a slump lately and i think he can do far better than he has shown in sweden, that is only 1 tournament with 2 players and a very limited amount of games. Huk did reasonably well at MLG for coming from the open bracket and playing so many games but i wouldnt put him up there with the top koreans yet. So far though koreans have outperfomed foreigners in actual best of 3 format live tournaments, thats all the live tournament info we have to go off of i know it may not be entirely accurate but so fare koreans have done really quite well in offline tournaments Mc winning dreamhack, Korean top 3 finish at IEM and the GSL WC where koreans took out every foreign player except dimaga in the first round and then dimaga getting taken out handily in the second and TT1 losing his first game to a korean in the tournament. Thats what we have to go off of, also the quality of their play is alot lower in online tournaments overall, is that just a coincidence?
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I agree that the Top Koreans in general are a little better. But i doubt they have put in the same efforts a some/all of their opponents have... TSL is just not the same for them as it is for "us".
Where did you see lag? Fruitdealer got trashed on all levels. Nestea fell to a nice attack in Game 2 and lost due to bad decision making/overcomitting in Game 3. That can happen to everyone at anytime anywhere. Nada vs TLO? That Banshee disagreed with it being laggy. Nada vs Kas? Kas was just way better. Genius? At least the second game was lost due to his build and the phoneix play did not indicate any sort of lag? Why would he even bother with such a Micro heavy build if he felt lag in the first game? MC? MC doesn't care, MC does win. But he can drop games to foreigners, if he can drop games, everyone can drop games and everyone can lose a series..... Sooner or later :p.
All these games did not look as if they were influenced by lag...
The biggest diffrence probably is: TSL for most foreigners = Valhalla. TSL for Koreans = Online-Tournament with a nice pricepool.
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On March 27 2011 09:20 NickLee808 wrote: When I play on a router shared between two other people streaming Korean dramas at the same time, my lag gets HORRENDOUS. That, and my computer can barely run the lowest settings to begin with. These two factors make it absolutely impossible to micro my Sentry force fields because my computer freezes up the second before a big engagement and doesn't unfreeze itself until after my entire army disappears.
I'm not trying to go against what you said though, because as long as I have the router all to myself and as long as I can win the early game (when our armies are still small), everything flows smoothly. My force fields still come out on time, even when I get the "waiting for sever" screen.
This should probably be discussed in greater detail in another thread, but I needed to comment on this.
As we know, upload/download bandwidth coming in your house is capped. You have two others in your house who are streaming Korean drama. As you've experienced, when these are streamed, your bandwidth goes bye-bye, because there's nothing in place(in your house) to govern how much should be allocated towards the streams. Hence the streams will just go as fast as they possibly can - choking your gaming bandwidth.
Here's what you need to do.
First, calculate your determine your maximum bandwidth. I use speedtest(speedtest.net), and run the bandwidth test. In my case speedtest has determined that I have 16Mbps download, and 0.75Mbps upload.
For my example, I decided that I would allocate 1.5Mb download and 0.20 upload for my user, leaving me with the lion's share of the bandwidth, ensuring that my gaming needs would not be interfered with, over streaming.
Next, head over to http://www.dd-wrt.com/site/index and immediately check to see if your router is covered under the firmware here. If so, you can update the firmware on your device and immediately start configuring the upload/download limits. And for those of you who say "duh, configure QoS, it's on every router known to man, duh" actually - have YOU done it successfully?
The upload/download limiter seems to apply to the entire device. You cannot seem to set the limits per port - but I'm told if you pay for a different release of the firmware, you can set per-port limiters. I did this instead:
Internet <-> Router1(for my use) <-> Router2(DD-WRT firmware for the users)
As you can see above, the two routers are daisy chained. I'm hooked up to Router1, and the people who I enforced bandwidth limits on, are connected to Router2.
This guarantees that, no matter what they may be doing, whether it be streaming, gaming, torrenting, they only ever go so fast, and by your limits.
You don't want to configure port-based QoS. It doesn't work very well. Let's say you prioritize Battle.net ports and de-proritize say, web surfing - sounds logical, right? I've found that in practice, it doesn't work very well.
Any questions I would love to elaborate and also provide some screenshots for anyone who wants more details.
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France12466 Posts
Veir you don't really know what you are talking about, the mag was visible I said it, NASL proves it it lags a lot so koreans should stop playing online tournaments but there is so much money (and not enough tournaments in korea) that I'm sure they'll continue to participate . Too bad we can't play cross-servers with a good latency.
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On April 14 2011 21:06 Velr wrote: I agree that the Top Koreans in general are a little better. But i doubt they have put in the same efforts a some/all of their opponents have... TSL is just not the same for them as it is for "us".
Where did you see lag? Fruitdealer got trashed on all levels. Nestea fell to a nice attack in Game 2 and lost due to bad decision making/overcomitting in Game 3. That can happen to everyone at anytime anywhere. Nada vs TLO? That Banshee disagreed with it being laggy. Nada vs Kas? Kas was just way better. Genius? At least the second game was lost due to his build and the phoneix play did not indicate any sort of lag? Why would he even bother with such a Micro heavy build if he felt lag in the first game? MC? MC doesn't care, MC does win. But he can drop games to foreigners, if he can drop games, everyone can drop games and everyone can lose a series..... Sooner or later :p.
All these games did not look as if they were influenced by lag...
The biggest diffrence probably is: TSL for most foreigners = Valhalla. TSL for Koreans = Online-Tournament with a nice pricepool.
Meh im of the opinion where small moments in a game where it seems like their isnt lag isnt indicative of lag for the whole game and vice versa with lag. I always bring this up but people still try and treat lag like it is a stable entity wich it is not. For instance against qxc sometimes genius's forcefields were spot on, indicatings very little lag or alot of foresight into where the army was going to be positioned. Other times you could see the forcefields were easily almost a second late. People seem so 1 minded about either there is lag or there isnt, why cant we treat lag like the unstable creature that it is.
Edit: also id like to say during that nada game, that was one of the worst instances ive seen of a pro gamer playing poorly in a tournament of any kind offline or online. Nada did so many things that were very uncharacteristic for him, he got around 40 supply behind with no engagements, they got their second bases at the same time yet nada was 11 scv's behind within 6 minutes after they got their expansions, He was queuing up units 4 deep at his barracks and making 4 supply depots at a time fairly early on in the game. There is no way nada was just playing like this, there was obviously some external circumstance factoring in to the way he was playing, my best guess is lag when it is played from replays you wouldnt beable to notice if their was any lag but im sure if it was casted live it would be easy to tell that he was lagging pretty badly. I think thats the thing alot of people forget , TSL is cast from replays therefore if there is any lag you wont notice it during the casted games.
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On April 15 2011 08:11 Poopi wrote:Veir you don't really know what you are talking about, the mag was visible I said it, NASL proves it it lags a lot so koreans should stop playing online tournaments but there is so much money (and not enough tournaments in korea) that I'm sure they'll continue to participate . Too bad we can't play cross-servers with a good latency. Yea the lag in NASL has been pretty bad so far, even playing from the OGS house it seemed to be lagging at times for OGSensnare and sometimes it seemed okay, i didnt really see him do any stutter step kiting though it seemed like he was trying to avoid it , i really noticed it when ogsensnare was movecommanding his army into incontrols army, not saying that incontrol for sure would have lost (he probably stilll would have won) but its really hard to tell exactly how much the lag is affecting the koreans in these tournaments, all we know is that it is defenetly present at some points during the games and sometimes it is negligible other times is quite severe.
Also like someone said earlier, Jinro was on his stream and the korean server went down and people were telling him to play on NA server and he refused to play as , the lag was too bad and he didnt feel like playing in those conditions.
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Lag isn't that big of an issue in my eyes anyway. People will get used to it, and even if it keeps happening it's not like it just disconnects mid battle or freezes for minutes at a time. or even goes a frame a second.
And above all. There really isn't much people can do about it.
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Really awesome, I was so hoping one of the TL players actually living in Korea and playing on Bnet in international tournaments would make a no-conjecture post about the actual conditions. I think the most important thing you pointed out was that as long as the lag/delay/whatever you want to call it is consistent, you can learn to expect it and work around it.
On a more opinionated point, I kind of get the feeling many of the top Korean stars didn't really take the international competitors seriously going into the TSL. Obviously I couldn't possibly no for sure, but I do wonder if some of them kind of assumed they would win regardless of what the lag would be like and so didn't make a point to get used to playing cross-continents. However, with the TSL results, the ongoing NASL results, and most importantly the internationals vs Korean tournament results, my hope is that that opinion will be changing!
Oh and one last thing: GO JINRO! Man I was so hoping you were going to take the GSL last season especially after seeing Mvp and MKP get knocked out so early (I say that because it seems like their TvT is pretty beastly). Keep owning man... and I actually didn't know your English was this good
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One other thing I kind of wanted to say (not sure if anyone even reads replies this far into the thread, tbh), but I think this could be considered a much bigger issue if the Koreans vs International tournament had gone differently. I mean, if the Koreans just dominated the International team, there could definitely be arguments for lag being a huge issue in their play in other tournaments. However, I think the international players proved that they are on par with the Korean pros. Also, no disrespect intended, but that really wasn't even the very best international players. Some of them were, of course, but there were a handful of guys that didn't REALLY deserve to be there. Again, obviously there's lots of circumstances to consider, I'm just saying... I guess the final point I'm trying to make with all of this is that we shouldn't be just EXPECTING Korean pros to dominate foreign pros any longer.
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I think boils down to some basic things. Lag in any multiplayer game is undesirable period, and forces you as the player, to do things in advance, in order to compensate for the lag.
The lag won't affect you if the actions that are demanded of you aren't as micro-intensive as Player B who is required to micro in order to even the score. Did you see marine stutter-step in Nada's game? It wasn't there, because it simply wasn't possible, or the difficulty skyrocketed in trying to do the same thing on a sub-100ms connection versus a 500ms or greater one.
In a laggy game it's to your benefit to play in such a way where you know that your opponent's micro is going to be lacking. Where you might not have gone void rays, go right ahead, because you know that his vikings are not going to be able to kite them. The gameplay swings in such a direction where, all these fancy micro tricks aren't going to be there. I daresay that the balance also shifts because of that as well. If a marauder can never kite a zealot due to lag - well - things sure change now, don't they.
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It's a little sad to say this but lag in the big SC2 online tournaments is actually good for esports outside of Korea. Most people who watch the stream don't really understand how lag can impact the result of the game so when they see their hometown players beat top Korean players, they get more interested and the scene grows at the result. Bigger interest from outside of Korea is good for everyone including the Korean players. I think many of the top players and commentators realize this and that's why they are reluctant to address the issue. There is a reason why all the big video game tournaments (not just Starcraft) are played live, not online.
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Wow, BoxeR really showed great micro this round. Running into storms where ever he could, EMPing 3 colossi instead of the whole zealot ball. And letting half of his army run into the protoss ball without sending them back. Lag never seemed more obvious in the TSL3 than in this series. Don't want to take anything away from Hasu, but you could practically feel the lag.
User was warned for this post
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On April 25 2011 06:03 Stamper wrote: Wow, BoxeR really showed great micro this round. Running into storms where ever he could, EMPing 3 colossi instead of the whole zealot ball. And letting half of his army run into the protoss ball without sending them back. Lag never seemed more obvious in the TSL3 than in this series. Don't want to take anything away from Hasu, but you could practically feel the lag. Im honestly amazed someone felt the need to bump this even though its been discussed to death just because they want to make excuses for their favorite players. Dont you have anything better to do?
If you'r wrong, its just a terrible trollbait. And even if you're absolutely right in everything you say.... so what?
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It just makes me sad for TSL, cause it makes so many supposedly awesome series onesided, boring and hurtful to watch. It just bothers me how much potential is wasted this way. I don't care so much for the results, as long as i can see good games. Edit: But i guess you're right, it was discussed enough. I'll keep it for myself next time.
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You can definitely see the presence of lag through the TSL. It's pretty sad too, because these amazing Korean pros are falling and these "rising stars" are somehow succeeding. Blizzard needs to fix their servers(along with other things...).
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