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On March 13 2014 09:54 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 08:54 qcHanHan wrote: I liked it. Don't listen to the mob. You know what's best.
gg wp I did not it. Don't listen to the self entitled minority. The community, who is a step removed from the creation process, knows what's best (there is a reason doctors can't operate on someone they're too personally close to).
Christ, that's ironic. Get over yourself.
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On March 13 2014 10:08 Survivor61316 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 10:02 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2014 10:00 Survivor61316 wrote:On March 13 2014 09:58 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2014 09:54 Survivor61316 wrote:On March 13 2014 08:54 qcHanHan wrote: I liked it. Don't listen to the mob. You know what's best.
gg wp I did not it. Don't listen to the self entitled minority. The community, who is a step removed from the creation process, knows what's best (there is a reason doctors can't operate on someone they're too personally close to). Lol, the community knows best. I guess we are a hive mind, all thinking the same thoughts. It's called consensus fool... I stand by my original, scarcastic statement. I guess we all think alike and consensus would come easy. There are a million and one things the SC community disagree on..obviously..but to act like there are not a few things that we are in consensus about is the height of fanboy foolishness. Go troll someone else loser. Are we counting the people who complain against those that don't because they think it is fine? How do we count those who don't complain about force fields against those that do?
Consensus is hard and mostly the community is split three ways, right down racial lines.
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United Kingdom12010 Posts
Just to touch on some popular topics to finish things off: - We think the BW high ground mechanic is not necessarily better than SC2. Each has its pros and cons. Force field - we're discussing whether there needs to be more counters, but we believe Force Fields themselves, when used very well, are in a good place. Units clumping naturally - This really rewards split micro which is one of the coolest micro moments SC2 provides. If units auto spread, marine splitting vs. Banelings won't be as cool to watch. Players don't need to expand more than twice - We disagree. There's a lot of variety out there whether it's 2 base play, 3 base play, or constant expansion play. Take a look at ZvP: it's extremely common for Zerg to take the 4th base around the time Protoss takes the 3rd.
I'm glad I stopped playing SC2. I know this is somewhat hyperbolic but these are some of the biggest issues with the game and part of the reason it's not as popular here and amongst progamers than BW was. They're just ignoring clearly giant flaws with the game for the sake of saying "well we think it's fine".
SC2, in my personal opinion is not a good competitive game. The fact that games are often one off of the back of a single 5 second fight into a snowball effect make me very apprehensive to even watch the game anymore. I mean I'll watch the odd game and admittedily I found it much better during HoTS, but it's still fundamentally broken.
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What bothers me the most is, as I have said in some earlier thread, that Blizzard states they are happy with status quo. They aren't considering taking some risk to take sc2 to the next level.
Another thing that is less important is that Blizzard chose to do their Q/A on Reddit instead of TL. I am not being biased, but TL has always been a solid game portal for StarCraft. They could have taken their discussion to the bnet website to be even more objective.
On March 13 2014 09:29 NoobCrunch wrote: Blizzard isn't incentivized to improve SC2 because they've already sold most of the copies that they are ever going to sell. Making large updates that go beyond changing unit stat values costs Blizzard development time that they could be putting into making other games. If anything, Blizzard wants to save big changes for when they make a new game so they can actually make money off of it.
It shouldn't be a surprise that D.K. made comments that expressed that no changes would be made to the game. When there are imbalances in the game, it's not Blizzard's "incompetence" that allows it to remain in the game. It's the fact that there is no reason to spend money on making the game better. As a long-term ladderer myself, I would love to changes to FF, Swarm Host, or broodlord infestor back in the day. Blizzard is never going to remove the Swarm Host (something that cost them development graphics, animations, etc.), spend more money to replace it with a new unit, and charge you 0$ to use it in their game. Blizzard doesn't even really care if you play their game as long as you're going to buy their future products.
Blizzard was willing to remove the warhound early on because adding a terrible unit was going to cost them sales after release. SC2 isn't a charity run by Blizzard. Blizzard is willing to make the game fun for you as long as they get the money. You have to deal with it since Blizzard is the only game developer willing to develop RTS games.
So if that's the case Blizzard being greedy, then can't we all threaten them to boycott LotV? This would surely scare them a little bit at least. Possible problem may be that the TL staff may not support such riot.
Edit: Alternatively, we may start a petition to ask for a better game with the LotV release. Not better as in "a few new features", but some more serious work.
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On March 13 2014 10:08 aZealot wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 09:54 Survivor61316 wrote:On March 13 2014 08:54 qcHanHan wrote: I liked it. Don't listen to the mob. You know what's best.
gg wp I did not it. Don't listen to the self entitled minority. The community, who is a step removed from the creation process, knows what's best (there is a reason doctors can't operate on someone they're too personally close to). Christ, that's ironic. Get over yourself. Its really not though, crack open a dictionary chief
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I did a double-take after reading this:
Q: Has the recent popularity of Starbow and its Brood-War-like gameplay influenced your approach to LotV in any way? Most people agree that large-scale fights that end in a matter of seconds aren't fun, or good for the competitive scene (not for the progamers, and certainly not for the audience). They don't reward skill, since there's usually not enough time to execute any micro maneuvers beyond the most basic splits and casting a few aoe spells. - Hide Spoiler - A: We definitely look at popular mods for ideas for SC2. Not only mods, but it's just very common for our designers to just explore games they are playing currently. One interesting story I'd like to share is back when the last Hearthstone alpha started internally, so many of us were playing the game so much that our multiplayer meetings were full of TCG-like ability ideas which took us to interesting areas creatively. Of course we can't do things like "when this unit enters play, something disruptive happens to the enemy," but often times crazy ideas lead to reasonable ideas that can actually work in a completely different type of game.
It took me a moment to realize what happened, haha.
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On March 13 2014 10:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 10:08 Survivor61316 wrote:On March 13 2014 10:02 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2014 10:00 Survivor61316 wrote:On March 13 2014 09:58 Plansix wrote:On March 13 2014 09:54 Survivor61316 wrote:On March 13 2014 08:54 qcHanHan wrote: I liked it. Don't listen to the mob. You know what's best.
gg wp I did not it. Don't listen to the self entitled minority. The community, who is a step removed from the creation process, knows what's best (there is a reason doctors can't operate on someone they're too personally close to). Lol, the community knows best. I guess we are a hive mind, all thinking the same thoughts. It's called consensus fool... I stand by my original, scarcastic statement. I guess we all think alike and consensus would come easy. There are a million and one things the SC community disagree on..obviously..but to act like there are not a few things that we are in consensus about is the height of fanboy foolishness. Go troll someone else loser. Are we counting the people who complain against those that don't because they think it is fine? How do we count those who don't complain about force fields against those that do? Consensus is hard and mostly the community is split three ways, right down racial lines. Do you know what consensus is? Of course we would include people who complain against those that don't think it is fine. Idk if you were on the reddit thread while DK was taking questions, but the majority of people were not in that group, and that's why the consensus would be against FF and SH (among other things). Why do you think he took the time for special mention about FF at the end genius? Because there were so many people on there complaining about it (along with mining mechanics and deathballs). If the community was "split down racial lines" (which has nothing to do with the problems of clumping and mining which affect each race) why would he have singled out these issues for special mention? He wouldn't have..
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On March 13 2014 07:02 Survivor61316 wrote: I wonder how difficult it would be to start a petition to get DK fired/demoted..? He is choking the life out of this game one step at a time due to sheer incompetence. Free units have a cost? 10+ Carriers a-moving isn't fun to watch, but 20+ SH chilling in the middle of the map not moving at all is? They will only put a change through if its "completely awesome" (gotta love corporate buzzwords)??
Honestly, this situation reminds me a lot of how Halo ended up dying as a competitive game and an esports scene.. The developers got all these crazy ideas in their heads that the only way to move forward was to completely change the game from one installment to the next (i.e. Halo Reach) instead of just sticking with tried and true methods. Blizzard seems to be under the same misconception as Bungie was at the end of their Halo career..they think SC is popular because they made it, when in reality they are popular because they made a good game. That won't happen unless either:
A) Viewership for WCS and GSL plummets.
B) Legacy of the Void fails to sell copies.
C) Big leagues not associated with WCS like MLG, Red Bull, OnGameNet, SPOTV and Dreamhack switched en masse to Starbow, citing complaints about SC2's balance and game design.
D) Starbow grows to the point where it becomes a legitimate competitor to SC2 as a professional sport.
E) Valve secretly buy out the Starbow team and unveil a true free to play successor to Brood War running on a modified version of the Source Engine with units redesigned to prevent Blizzard from suing.
In other words, not going to happen. David Kim would literally have to kill the game or pull a communication cock-up on the level of Jay Wilson's "Fuck that loser" gaffe in order to be fired or demoted here. And that's the sad truth because apparently the 1.4.3 Balance Update wasn't enough to prove his utter incompetence.
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/SH whine
How about thinking first before making statement like "supply limit with unit X is op = must be nerfed" "unit X can't be nerfed because i dont like it's design so it must be removed " How can you claim SH been op at the top level ZvP if high level protoses keep doing insanely stupid mistakes probably because if they will not adjust this unit will be nerfed - so why bother let's just whine!!! But finally some mentally advanced protoses started to use revelation on vipers to counter abducts and on spores + some decent warp prism harass. If only they learn to not overkill single spore crawler with like 20 tempests or use feedback or mb split expensive units or how about not pressing damn Prismatic Alignment on queens because IT DOES NOTHING! Personally i'm sure that this kind of ZvP is major step forward for the game. To be strong zerg's army needs allmoust all units in game and 3 core casters with proper proportions and constant usage of like 5 army hotkeys while this strategy makes protoss do some multitasking and harassments instead of boring a-move timing facerolls. It might need some balance adjustments but for now it's more about lack of proper skill set which wasn't developed by protoss pleyers because avoiding a-move is new mechanics to the race and it makes ppl frustrated. Concerning free units its total BS. You're building your arguments around game states without context and progression and if you claim that locusts are free than swarm hosts are damn overpriced because they cant do anything on their own. It's all about initial investment. You can't get some SH becuase it will benefit your army composition much less then even cuple of roaches. You must do instant switch like with mutalisks and it will open you to an attack. If you do not have huge advantage(so this game is basically won) than when you get 20 swarm hosts your opponent will have army that at this moment will be much stronger than yours because swarm hosts aren't cost efficient or strong at the moment when they acuired but they become efficient in time so you will have some weak spot like air defence of lack of static at expands and smart opponent can exploit it. But standart protoss twitch reflex will be going home, bunkerering up and starting to build THE deathball. That's why sometimes we can see 2h games. Nor zerg nor protoss can efficiently breake each other because while ago someone in the game gone full retard. So yeah it has solution. Make protoss lose hope in defeating SH with the deathball so protoss will start to play aggressive and make those anti SH timings more exposed so protoss will be unable to ignore them. Personally i would like to see rise in mineral cost of SH so zerg will not have minerals to get them and statics/queens at the same moment and will be exposed to harassment.
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Northern Ireland20726 Posts
On the other hand, there are good elements to Starbow as a game that might be worth a look at, regardless of the E-sports apparatus that doesn't support it.
Anyway, standard for this AMA.
Look end of the day, if they're not going to touch core mechanics that annoy you, don't buy LoTV. Just don't buy it. I'm starting to swing that way myself, but I mean beside from voting with your feet I don't see what is gained from interacting with Blizzard on these things.
They just don't want to address certain grievances, or try certain things. They don't have to, but they can't not be aware of the ideas that are floating around the community, it's not a matter of exposing them, it's a matter of Blizzard implementing them.
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On March 13 2014 10:29 Wombat_NI wrote: On the other hand, there are good elements to Starbow as a game that might be worth a look at, regardless of the E-sports apparatus that doesn't support it.
Anyway, standard for this AMA.
Look end of the day, if they're not going to touch core mechanics that annoy you, don't buy LoTV. Just don't buy it. I'm starting to swing that way myself, but I mean beside from voting with your feet I don't see what is gained from interacting with Blizzard on these things.
They just don't want to address certain grievances, or try certain things. They don't have to, but they can't not be aware of the ideas that are floating around the community, it's not a matter of exposing them, it's a matter of Blizzard implementing them. People said the same about HotS when late Wings was literally Zerg dominated because punishing 15 minute Infestor Brood Lord was impossible thanks to an unnecessary balance update that gave Queens +2 attack range, implemented for no other reason than Zerg actually losing when they play greedy-as-shit.
What happened there? HotS broke sales records, people forgave Blizzard and continued to go full fanboy mode on the series.
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Dominican Republic589 Posts
On March 13 2014 07:30 Beastyqt wrote: Typical answers from him like from every interview since 2010.
Q: "X is op, are you going to do anything about it?" A: "We are looking into and and we feel we need to see more games so we can actually say that is op." - after something being broken for more than 6 months.
Q: "Are you going to add normal battle net or daily tournaments that was done 10 years ago in WC3 and SC1?" A: "I mean we are currently working on it as our priority for next expansion and should be up by 2017, because technology isn't there yet."
Q: "Swarm hosts are op can you fix them?" A: "We talked to a lot of pros and decided to make completely useless change that doesn't even come close to fixing this problem, because we have no idea what we are doing anyway."
I don't understand how can someone be so clueless and stubborn after 4 years of SC2, every interview same "answers", no solution and no plans for future changes.
This is the same reason i went back to bw and also i play a lot of battlefield 4, hope to make a come back on LOVT
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On March 13 2014 10:35 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 10:29 Wombat_NI wrote: On the other hand, there are good elements to Starbow as a game that might be worth a look at, regardless of the E-sports apparatus that doesn't support it.
Anyway, standard for this AMA.
Look end of the day, if they're not going to touch core mechanics that annoy you, don't buy LoTV. Just don't buy it. I'm starting to swing that way myself, but I mean beside from voting with your feet I don't see what is gained from interacting with Blizzard on these things.
They just don't want to address certain grievances, or try certain things. They don't have to, but they can't not be aware of the ideas that are floating around the community, it's not a matter of exposing them, it's a matter of Blizzard implementing them. People said the same about HotS when late Wings was literally Zerg dominated because punishing 15 minute Infestor Brood Lord was impossible thanks to an unnecessary balance update that gave Queens +2 attack range, implemented for no other reason than Zerg actually losing when they play greedy-as-shit. What happened there? HotS broke sales records, people forgave Blizzard and continued to go full fanboy mode on the series. Or there was more to like than to dislike. People could have liked the game. It is possible.
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Northern Ireland20726 Posts
On March 13 2014 10:35 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 10:29 Wombat_NI wrote: On the other hand, there are good elements to Starbow as a game that might be worth a look at, regardless of the E-sports apparatus that doesn't support it.
Anyway, standard for this AMA.
Look end of the day, if they're not going to touch core mechanics that annoy you, don't buy LoTV. Just don't buy it. I'm starting to swing that way myself, but I mean beside from voting with your feet I don't see what is gained from interacting with Blizzard on these things.
They just don't want to address certain grievances, or try certain things. They don't have to, but they can't not be aware of the ideas that are floating around the community, it's not a matter of exposing them, it's a matter of Blizzard implementing them. People said the same about HotS when late Wings was literally Zerg dominated because punishing 15 minute Infestor Brood Lord was impossible thanks to an unnecessary balance update that gave Queens +2 attack range, implemented for no other reason than Zerg actually losing when they play greedy-as-shit. What happened there? HotS broke sales records, people forgave Blizzard and continued to go full fanboy mode on the series. In that case, to be fair initially HoTS did look a bit of a step up, but then figure out how to use the tools given to them to their utmost potential and the game too has stagnated a little.
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I like how the synopsis is basically, "we disagree with everything"
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On March 13 2014 06:56 Zealos wrote: I like it. Basically it can be summed up: We hear your complaints. We are not changing anything.
Sooooo true.
Anywya, Starbow is already better then sc2 and I just hope that it will keep growing. That is our last hope.
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On March 13 2014 06:43 ZAiNs wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2014 06:17 Liman wrote:We believe ZvP is the biggest concern of the three matchups Really ? WTF ? Are you disagreeing and saying that 1+ hour long SH turtle games are more of a problem in ZvZ and ZvT than ZvP?
T v P is the biggest joke imo.
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A) Viewership for WCS and GSL plummets.
Hasn't viewership for WCS and GSL already plummeted a LOT since after Blizzcon?
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On March 13 2014 09:45 Tuczniak wrote: Avilo is wrong, at least partly. Swarmhost are very strong versus mech, probably OP. But what we see the most, and what Avilo is playing a lot, is turtle into mass raven. It's not mech, it's skyterran. People play it because mass raven is stupidly strong even though it's the most boring style ever. It's terrans plan to turtle in the first place. Swarmshots are good for pressure, but can't break it. But terran would be turtling even if swarmhosts weren't there, because mass raven is so good. It's completely different situation than in ZvP where it's Z who is turtling. Anyway DK has it right in this (only?) case. Raven is the problem. But that's the problem with skyterran. In case of mech, I don't think mech is all too viable. The only games we see are some timing attacks relying on unprepared opponent or damage dealt early. Good change would be to nerf raven and make true mech viable and fun in TvZ. Although they have to redesign swarmhosts and make mech good in TvP too, so it's a lot of work. If it were for me, I would just nerf raven. TvZ bio is already the best matchup and they should focus on other things than making mech viable in TvZ.
And you would be wrong about me being wrong.
I have played hundreds of 40 min + games vs swarmhosts with mech into ravens. I called out the swarmhost/raven scenario months ago, and posted about it many times, and made it known months ago. No one was playing mech then though because bio/mine was good until dkim nerfed the widow mine into oblivion.
Now that bio/mine is not viable, lots of people came over to the mech vs zerg side of things and people started to adopt my style of mech into ravens...and there is a good reason for that. If you go mech, tanks are not cost efficient enough to attack with. Thors are not efficient anti air either...until you have critical mass of these.
Meaning you must turtle with mech if you want to play mech. Zerg builds swarmhosts and when normally a mech Terran would want to finally push out, it's impossible because you cannot trade vespene gas units for free units over and over again.
So where normally without swarmhosts, mech vs Zerg would be lots of roach/hydra/viper and ultras and muta tech switches, and constant trades of hellions, mines, etc...the swarmhost completely obliterates those trades and forces mech to slowly lose over time by trading free units for actual money.
There is only one way to then be able to fight that, and that is to accumulate ravens for PDD so that you can inch across the map and advance against swarmhosts without losing vespene gas over and over to free units.
Mech alone will NEVER, i repeat, NEVER beat a good Zerg that builds swarmhosts. You are forced to turtle into 7+ ravens or you die a slow death just like Protoss does.
So yes, you're right Terran mech would turtle vs Zerg without swarmhosts, but that is because mech is only efficient once you have a critical mass of units because of how weak siege tanks are in low numbers, and same with thors vs mutas in low numbers. But you are clueless if you think the raven is the problem. It's the swarmhost that is the first level that forces Terran into the only response possible that allows us to fight against free units.
Swarmhosts are not necessary vs mech in the first place - the viper alone allows Zerg to fight against turtle meching Terrans.
Despite any "Protoss OP" talk and disregarding TvP...Protoss has similar issues against the swarm host - you cannot trade vespene gas units like collosus, sentries, stalkers, archons....against free units. You will just lose the game very slowly. So Protoss does the same thing Mech Terran does - you have to basically sit there and turtle until you have mass tempest/templar + mothership in order to actually advance or make a dent into swarmhosts.
The swarmhost is the root of the issue because Terran and Protoss cannot trade vespene gas units over and over versus free units. What ends up happening is it forces the game to stalemates and long 1 hr turtle games because it puts a halt to any unit trading interactions that should occur in a high paced RTS like SC2.
That is the root of the issue - you cannot trade units vs swarmhosts ever or you lose. Versus things like mass roach/hydra, mass ling/muta, etc. you can trade units with the Zerg because you know those units take up resources and larva. Swarmhost locusts don't even cost energy.
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He should run for office, not many people can so so little in so many words.
Starbow is a wonderful alternative that's being so utterly ignored.
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