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Seems like even Bisu can't make it work against the top Zergs now.
Every time I see a Protoss do this, he just gets massively stomped by the opponent Zerg at the current top Korean level.
Maybe it's the map pool or the top Zergs like hero & ZerO knowing how to deal with it. but Sair/Reaver is becoming the SK Terran of Protoss builds (Zergs are exploiting the weakness of the build too well that it seems too sub-optimal and gimmicky).
It's funny how 4 Gate/2Archon timing is super strong vs the now popular 4 base/6 hatch style, but instead, people still opt to go for Sair/Reaver time and time again.
Nal_rA must be crying ._.
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+ Show Spoiler +Killer vs Sea.KH in SSL11. Sea goes double stargate into reavers and wins decisively.
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With so many Zergs going for hydra busts, I really don't see why this would be 'dead'.
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what happened to sk terran? ive been playing sc2 but i didnt think a huge cloud of science vessels could ever go out of style
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On July 26 2015 22:30 HyralGambit wrote: It's funny how 4 Gate/2Archon timing is super strong vs the now popular 4 base/6 hatch style, but instead, people still opt to go for Sair/Reaver time and time again. zealot proof zerg walls are quite good vs 2archon+zealot opening. zerg just needs to scout and stay in his base. The Bisu vs zero on Jade was not good example of sair/reaver imo.
On July 27 2015 06:14 Puyi wrote: what happened to sk terran? ive been playing sc2 but i didnt think a huge cloud of science vessels could ever go out of style vessels are still in the lategame, but switching bio into mech has become very popular. Mass tanks and vults are way stronger vs swarms and ultras than marines.
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I guess current 3 base meta is like simply very effective vs reaver sair tech for a few reasons. You'd need a good drop to delay the zerg, or hit a fine timing attack and have some luck that the zerg won't be prepared. Other than that It should be good on maps that allow an easy 3rd or allowing a 3rd within the initial wall-in (few maps like that). Else it's 2 base reaver vs 3 base eco zerg that's mostly quite safe, and 3 base without early pressure or incoming threat, is just plain comfortable.
I'm sure you can play it effectively till high ranks, but idk if you'd want to play it vs top players all the time.
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To be honest, it's very map specific. You shouldn't really sair/reaver on Jade...Maps like Bloody ridge, on the other hand, are very effective for this kind of play as you can secure the 4 bases in your corner side relatively easy with sairs and reavers as they are all close by air and have ramps.
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Japan11285 Posts
That KH game was the bomb, really liked his execution. If only...
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Bisutopia18993 Posts
Bisu made a really bad choice to sair/reaver on that map. He didn't have the economy to tech reavers and obtain objectives such as expansions and map control in that game. Also what DraW said ^.
I think the real issue, for Bisu at least, is that he doesn't have the high level zerg practice partners and coaching that he had with SKT. Sometimes it is really obvious he is uncertain about his decision making and makes mistakes he wouldn't have in the KESPA era.
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I just don't think it's really never been a mainstream strategy. Or should I say not the most popular used pvz strategy on land maps.However on paradoxx bisu does go reaver/sair into carriers.
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I`d like to see some webs.
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On July 28 2015 12:39 J-dawg wrote: I just don't think it's really never been a mainstream strategy. Or should I say not the most popular used pvz strategy on land maps.However on paradoxx bisu does go reaver/sair into carriers. If I remember correctly, maps like Andromeda made the style very popular for a time. Like Draw said, it's map-specific.
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On July 30 2015 16:47 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On July 28 2015 12:39 J-dawg wrote: I just don't think it's really never been a mainstream strategy. Or should I say not the most popular used pvz strategy on land maps.However on paradoxx bisu does go reaver/sair into carriers. If I remember correctly, maps like Andromeda made the style very popular for a time. Like Draw said, it's map-specific. Yeah, I was out of bw for 3 long years and I have forgot a lot. I think Andromeda was popular before I left bw in 2009 to 2012 anyways, either way I must of forgotten about reaver/sair being popular on that map. I do recall the ggplay vs stork game I think it was which he did go reaver/sair into carriers on that map as did many other gosu players.
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sair/reaver sucked since zerg started to use 3 hatch scourge builds. remember that game July vs Free on Andromeda? it's even worse now Zergs have perfected the fast 4th base style which is perfect for fighting sair/reaver, have gotten better at muta/scourge vs sairs, get +1 armor pre-emptively and so on... it's just how the game evolves
KH's 2 stargate sairs did crazy damage before the Reaver harass even started, I think Killer was just caught offguard
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On July 31 2015 18:19 Espers wrote: sair/reaver sucked since zerg started to use 3 hatch scourge builds. remember that game July vs Free on Andromeda? it's even worse now Zergs have perfected the fast 4th base style which is perfect for fighting sair/reaver, have gotten better at muta/scourge vs sairs, get +1 armor pre-emptively and so on... it's just how the game evolves
KH's 2 stargate sairs did crazy damage before the Reaver harass even started, I think Killer was just caught offguard Exactly, Killer was supply blocked for life, corsairs already won the game. With or without reaver, killer could do only buildings.
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Japan11285 Posts
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't 2 stargate a normal build to transition to sair-reaver? I've seen himself rA do it a few times I think.
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On July 31 2015 22:56 c3rberUs wrote: Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't 2 stargate a normal build to transition to sair-reaver? I've seen himself rA do it a few times I think.
in the past yes,now is more a counter to mutas,a way to take the air control with a follow up of 5 gateways zealots +1 in other cases dt build and expand etc.others also make 2 reavers but goes straight into templar archives.
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Sair/Reaver really belongs to Stork who was its best advocate and best player. No reason the strategy wouldn't work on ideal maps if they exist. There are probably some undiscovered transitions into sair/reaver that might make it more viable. If the opening is wrong the build isn't going to work.
Starcraft isn't Chess--there's a lot more academic work that could improve existing strategies and sair reaver is one.
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