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This thread is really spinning in circles honestly. It's much more of a "let's all mention stuff we don't like" rather than a "what do we do about wide skill gaps in tours" thread.
With regards to the whole having an advantage thing; yes. it is a nice advantage to be able to speak korean and live in Korea. It also doesn't really matter, at least is you go by any prior social precedent in sport or life. Some rich kid might grow up getting golf lessons from a professonal starting at age 4. He is still allowed to play high school golf when he is that age. A kid might have a dad that is a GM and coaches him well from a young age; said kid is not banned from playing in tournament for 12 year olds if he his 12 because of his GM dad. Kenyan runners are born with great genetics and at a high altitude which is great for long term aerobic adaptations; they are still allowed to come to US schools on scholarships, and compete in the NCAA or pro ranks.
Bottom line is that whether a player is advantaged or not doesn't matter. It's just how we accept, universally as a human species, that things work.
That said, there is one thing that is commonly done which are competitions divided by location or divided by skill. It's common to host tours for people of varying abilities. In other words you might handicap a golf tournament, or have tiered division in a race based on speed, or ELO divisions of a chess tournament.
Nina has already talked about regional concepts, and of course it would also be possible to have skill cap tournaments. I.e. you cannot enter if you're rank is above C on fish. I feel like it makes the most sense to talk about actual solutions for the perceived problem, but many people seem to be responding to or bringing up points that have nothing to do with a solution and spending time discussing why scan has an advantage or why Filthy didn't run his tournaments right...that's be hashed out to death, and is totally unhelpful in finding a working solution.
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On June 15 2017 04:54 L_Master wrote: This thread is really spinning in circles honestly. It's much more of a "let's all mention stuff we don't like" rather than a "what do we do about wide skill gaps in tours" thread.
With regards to the whole having an advantage thing; yes. it is a nice advantage to be able to speak korean and live in Korea. It also doesn't really matter, at least is you go by any prior social precedent in sport or life. Some rich kid might grow up getting golf lessons from a professonal starting at age 4. He is still allowed to play high school golf when he is that age. A kid might have a dad that is a GM and coaches him well from a young age; said kid is not banned from playing in tournament for 12 year olds if he his 12 because of his GM dad. Kenyan runners are born with great genetics and at a high altitude which is great for long term aerobic adaptations; they are still allowed to come to US schools on scholarships, and compete in the NCAA or pro ranks.
Bottom line is that whether a player is advantaged or not doesn't matter. It's just how we accept, universally as a human species, that things work.
That said, there is one thing that is commonly done which are competitions divided by location or divided by skill. It's common to host tours for people of varying abilities. In other words you might handicap a golf tournament, or have tiered division in a race based on speed, or ELO divisions of a chess tournament.
Nina has already talked about regional concepts, and of course it would also be possible to have skill cap tournaments. I.e. you cannot enter if you're rank is above C on fish. I feel like it makes the most sense to talk about actual solutions for the perceived problem, but many people seem to be responding to or bringing up points that have nothing to do with a solution and spending time discussing why scan has an advantage or why Filthy didn't run his tournaments right...that's be hashed out to death, and is totally unhelpful in finding a working solution. This is pretty much what I said in my post. I don't think it should matter where you are from but only your skill level. I think Scan's skill level is clearly a league above the top foreigners at this point and if tournament hosts want to have a competitive foreigner tournament, they should not include him. However, I also think tournament hosts should be able to decide whether or not they want a competitive tournament.
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On June 15 2017 04:10 iFU.pauline wrote: Really some need to understand that we foreign players aren't here to seek improvement to reach higher planes of existence. We are old and play mainly for fun.
Now I read shit and it seems some people have difficulties to understand that if you are born in Harlem NY and play basketball you are more likely to be much better at it that if you were born in Loudenvielle France. To those people, please stop posting, you obviously don't have the requirements to have an opinion anywhere close to decency.
Now the difference you have between NYC and Loudenvielle is the same you have between KoreanBW and ForeignBW. Scan comes from KoreanBW, he plays competitive starcraft. We don't. This is why the gap in skill is that big not you idiotic improvement argument, because if that was true, Korean would be the best at everything obviously.
Regarding Scan, it is ok he participates from time to time after all he is more than welcome, but we are starting to see blatant abuse and that's not cool. We find that inappropriate and it is killing the fun.
Doesn't playing hundreds or thousands of games every season on the fish server fall into the category of competitive gaming? How does joining a tournament where all players are welcome fall into the category of abuse?
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Basically I'd be thinking of having a draft of guidelines or recommendations that could be pinned to the top for future organizers to read. They could pick up some good information, and then make a decision from there as to how/if they would like to allocate any funds they might have.
That does three things:
1) Allows organizers who may or may not be familiar with the scene to make the most informed decision possible, including information about the feelings of top players/likely tour participants and viewers.
2) Prevents the same issue that happened with FilthyRake's cups, which is that there was so much anti-"good player" talk it came across as whiny (even if some of it were well stated, legitimate concerns; this comes off as whiny in the overwhelming doses seen in FilthyRake's thread)
3) Provides an outlet for future discussions of this topic as opinions change or evolve or new tournaments are hosted that doesn't clutter up the organizers thread with negativity.
Which again brings us back to the last question that needs answering; which is directed primarily at the top players, and asks "What do you guys want in a tour?" Do you want there to be a general skillcap? Should this exist for all tours, every other tour, or some other percentage?
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thedeadhaji
39471 Posts
> L_Master
You've reminded me that both high school and college sports generally group schools together in separate leagues based on their general strength.
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I think if every 2nd tournament was open to all players, there would be no complaints nor hatred. I should specify that Im talking about tours that happen every given period of time. I'm not recommanding anything yet if a one big tour took place.
That is my solution / sugestion. Let's hear others.
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On June 15 2017 05:39 Bonyth wrote: I think if every 2nd tournament was open to all players, there would be no complaints nor hatred. I should specify that Im talking about tours that happen every given period of time. I'm not recommanding anything yet if a one big tour took place.
That is my solution / sugestion. Let's hear others. Bracket A <> Bracket B
Backet B is composed of previous winners and Bracket A is composed of everyone else.
OR
Bracket A is composed of Foreigners, Bracket B is composed of Koreans (which is kind of silly if Bracket B only contains 1 player)
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On June 15 2017 05:39 Bonyth wrote: I think if every 2nd tournament was open to all players, there would be no complaints nor hatred. I should specify that Im talking about tours that happen every given period of time. I'm not recommanding anything yet if a one big tour took place.
That is my solution / sugestion. Let's hear others. I agree that there should be foreigner only tournaments. Just not every 2nd tournament held, as that should be up to the tournament organizers. So... you're suggesting that every single tournament organizer that holds a tournament in the future should have to make his 2nd tournament for foreigners only?
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On June 15 2017 01:34 2Pacalypse- wrote: If you guys want any chance to stop this thread from getting closed, then you need to stop making personal arguments. This thread should not be about "Scan vs rest of the world". There are some legitimate things to discuss on this topic, most of them are laid out in the original post. Focus on those things, instead of attacking each other for personal reasons.
i haven't posted in this thread so far, as i was pretty sure it would go down the drain very fast and was not worth the effort. So far i sadly have to say i feel confirmed. But i will use your appeal to say what my approach would be and what i believe is the best solution:
For TO's:
- Create a clear and unmistakable category for the tournaments you run. For instance "foreigners only" "amateurs only" or even "amateurs and pro-gaming affiliated players" Make it clear what you are basing your decision on, how you define your categories and then stick to it. However, be prepared to re-evaluate if need be.
- For players: Voice your concerns in a friendlier way. I think guys like Eon Tacz, Sziky and others intend to make a meaningful contribution, but the it comes off wrong.
Regarding Haveatyou!: I would advocate for compromise here like others did. Restrict access for "pro gaming affiliated players" like Scan and Sonstar to every second event and use the Chinese rule. (offracing in every even game of a boX. In COSL a korean Pro has to pick a offrace against the chinese player in the 2nd 4th and potential 6th game of a bo7)
For Schamtoo and filthy: i know your mad and feel frustrated about the whole event. I think it's not about invalidating your experience as a TO in other games, that's pretty amazing. But Broodwar, esp. foreign scene these days has it's specifics and sometimes you need to adjust. There's a ton of experienced TO's lurking in this thread that will gladly offer advice and help. I recommend Gecko's post about specifica as i overall very much agree with his analysis.
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In the spirit of constructive suggestions mine would be to introduce a cap on the number of weeks one player can win a weekly title before they cant join more in that tour or a cooldown before they can join them again. If the issue is that one player is dominating everyone else week after week this would help solve it.
Ultimately I still believe the tournament organizer is the authority on the tournament rules and petitioning or complaining about the format of the tournament until the organizer feels harassed or annoyed is not helpful to anybody.
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I think that you shouldn't ban koreans from the scenes. However if you want to host tournaments with region lock that would most probably be fine too. Personally I think hosting tournaments for lower skill groups only could be fun too sadly if the number of players is too small those won't be very successful tournaments.
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What would this ban even achieve? It would be a short term "solution" without it even being a solution and create an even longer term problem. Dont get me wrong, national and continental tournaments are fine, but banning one country because they are "too good" sounds lame and lazy.
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On June 15 2017 05:48 Cele wrote: For TO's:
- Create a clear and unmistakable category for the tournaments you run. For instance "foreigners only" "amateurs only" or even "amateurs and pro-gaming affiliated players" Make it clear what you are basing your decision on, how you define your categories and then stick to it. However, be prepared to re-evaluate if need be. Or they can do whatever they want. They can be as clear or as vague as they want. As long as they aren't committing fraud or otherwise breaking the law it's not your call. The only thing they need to evaluate is what they want. It's not their responsibility to cater to anybody but themselves.
On June 15 2017 05:48 Cele wrote: - For players: Voice your concerns in a friendlier way. I think guys like Eon Tacz, Sziky and others intend to make a meaningful contribution, but the it comes off wrong. Or they can do whatever they want. They can be as rude and selfish as they like. They have no right to any conditions either way. It doesn't mean a damn thing how meaningful your contribution is. It's not your house. If you like a tournament play in it. If not don't.
On June 15 2017 05:48 Cele wrote:Regarding Haveatyou!: I would advocate for compromise here like others did. Restrict access for "pro gaming affiliated players" like Scan and Sonstar to every second event and use the Chinese rule. (offracing in every even game of a boX. In COSL a korean Pro has to pick a offrace against the chinese player in the 2nd 4th and potential 6th game of a bo7) No. This is actually the worst attitude in this thread. People are literally showing up with their own cupcakes to hand out and people are actually arguing with them about and who should get them. Then people come along with this kind of opinion, like the people handing out cupcakes should compromise with the people telling them how to hand them out differently. Fuck that. It's insane. Get your own cupcakes and then you can decide how to share them. Not before.
On June 15 2017 05:48 Cele wrote:For Schamtoo and filthy: i know your mad and feel frustrated about the whole event. I think it's not about invalidating your experience as a TO in other games, that's pretty amazing. But Broodwar, esp. foreign scene these days has it's specifics and sometimes you need to adjust. There's a ton of experienced TO's lurking in this thread that will gladly offer advice and help. I recommend Gecko's post about specifica as i overall very much agree with his analysis. This is so arrogant it blows my mind, honestly. "Hey, thanks for the free cupcakes but maybe next time make them better? I know some people who can do that."
Like, if you want to have detached "What's the best way of running tournaments?" discussions go nuts. But stop fucking acting like any person or tournament has any obligation to listen or compromise.
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On June 15 2017 06:00 404AlphaSquad wrote: What would this ban even achieve? It would be a short term "solution" without it even being a solution and create an even longer term problem. Dont get me wrong, national and continental tournaments are fine, but banning one country because they are "too good" sounds lame and lazy.
Again, I think couching it as a national ban would be the incorrect approach. You'd either want to frame it as a regional tournament OR as a tournament with a max skill cap.
"No Koreans" tour sounds obnoxious, has a bad vibe, and isn't what you're really opposed to anyway.
Better things would be:
"EU Cup" "NA Cup"
"F-C Fish Tour"
They accomplish similar things; but are more descriptive and fair to the situation. The concern isn't koreans, scan, or any combination. It's just simply players that are too strong. If NonY showed back up and was suddenly S on fish, everyone would be clamoring for a ban just the same. Likewise, nobody cares if an F rank fish korean player shows up.
On June 15 2017 05:38 thedeadhaji wrote: > L_Master
You've reminded me that both high school and college sports generally group schools together in separate leagues based on their general strength.
They do...in a bizarre way. The general concept makes sense, in that bigger schools are likely to have more students and thus a larger, deeper talent base to draw from. However, sometimes much smaller schools happen to have a really good team and destroy their own division. Realistically, that's what it's intended to do, and is probably the best way to handle it; but I must say it's a fairly imprecise method.
That said, it definitely goes along with the motif of having tiered competition.
@Lachrymose - I agree with you. It's the organizers choice. But we've more or less established that people are on board with that. You'll obviously have a few dissenters no matter what, but the discussion has moved on to thinking about the best set of "recommend solutions" to pitch to tournament organizers about what viewers and players want. Just rehashing the old topic is not constructive at this point.
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Regional tours, conceptually, sound great. I do worry the numbers would be a little small. NA/SA + EU + Asia could possibly work, I imagine anything else would be too small.
Skill limited still makes the most sense in my eyes, both logistically and because it's what I sense that really is the main concern. Individual tours should probably defer to a cap of C or B on fish (until we have ELO based ranks from BW: R anyway). For a tour series, most players seem pretty open to an alternating format of a C/B capped tour, and an "open" tour, with the open tour occurring once every two or three iterations.
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On June 13 2017 21:10 esReveR wrote: It seems like most of your reasoning for Koreans having an advantage is knowing the Korean language, and thus being able to learn from the best. I think it's more because of the cultural difference in which Koreans tend to give their all to whatever their passion is. However, the language problem is fairly easily addressed. Korean language is relatively easy to learn when compared to overly-complicated languages like English. I just started learning it on my own (for unrelated reasons). There's no reason people can't spend a little bit of time each week learning Korean, if they really want to commit to being in top form.
That being said, I don't feel like penalizing people like Scan for being Korean and playing there is necessarily fair. Some tournaments that ban Koreans aren't a bad thing, but any amateur tourney with a larger prize pool should probably stay open for all (minus the actual professionals). It's not because of that. Koreans are much better, even the amateurs because in that country the game was professionalized and very popular, it's known that the bigger the player base is, the highest the level of the average and top players is, and it won't change even if you learn Korean like you said. Let me give you an example: South American Soccer vs Asian Soccer. it's well known that the best soccer players and national teams have always been from south america, and that's not because we have been born with superior genes to play soccer or anything ridiculous like that. it's because soccer is incredible popular here, everyone plays it, and since the player base is so huge you can play everywhere, there are always people from all skill levels to play with, thus everyone learns quickly and you get support if you want to be really good at it, and that's why the overall skill is much better than Asian players, which countries aren't that much into soccer, and even if some of them try to be as good as the south americans, there is still that huge gap of cultural difference, which is much more supportive in south america for soccer. so even after many decades of asians playing soccer they are still not even close to south america skill level. The same thing applies for broodwar.
Edit: So having this in mind i believe it's not fair to allow koreans to play at foreigner tournaments. but what could be cool though would be to have 5 region lock tournaments for amateurs, Europe, Asia, North America, South America, and Korea. and once a year all the best players from each region would play in 1 big tournament. If SC remastered brings a lot of new players that could be very possible, but for now as the player base is so tiny everywhere except Korea, the best would be to ban Korea from foreigner tournaments
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On June 15 2017 07:04 MymSlorm wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2017 21:10 esReveR wrote: It seems like most of your reasoning for Koreans having an advantage is knowing the Korean language, and thus being able to learn from the best. I think it's more because of the cultural difference in which Koreans tend to give their all to whatever their passion is. However, the language problem is fairly easily addressed. Korean language is relatively easy to learn when compared to overly-complicated languages like English. I just started learning it on my own (for unrelated reasons). There's no reason people can't spend a little bit of time each week learning Korean, if they really want to commit to being in top form.
That being said, I don't feel like penalizing people like Scan for being Korean and playing there is necessarily fair. Some tournaments that ban Koreans aren't a bad thing, but any amateur tourney with a larger prize pool should probably stay open for all (minus the actual professionals). It's not because of that. Koreans are much better, even the amateurs because in that country the game was professionalized and very popular, it's known that the bigger the player base is, the highest the level of the average and top players is, and it won't change even if you learn Korean like you said. Let me give you an example: South American Soccer vs Asian Soccer. it's well known that the best soccer players and national teams have always been from south america, and that's not because we have been born with superior genes to play soccer or anything ridiculous like that. it's because soccer is incredible popular here, everyone plays it, and since the player base is so huge you can play everywhere, there are always people from all skill levels to play with, thus everyone learns quickly and you get support if you want to be really good at it, and that's why the overall skill is much better than Asian players, which countries aren't that much into soccer, and even if some of them try to be as good as the south americans, there is still that huge gap of cultural difference, which is much more supportive in south america for soccer. so even after many decades of asians playing soccer they are still not even close to south america skill level. The same thing applies for broodwar
....
We've moved past that point of discussion, it's been hashed to death. Please try not to respond to people just because you really feel the need to rebut the point. Solutions at this point, solutions.
Bonyth and a few others have laid down some good thoughts. Would also be curious to hear from guys like Eon, TrutacZ, etc.
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On June 15 2017 07:13 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2017 07:04 MymSlorm wrote:On June 13 2017 21:10 esReveR wrote: It seems like most of your reasoning for Koreans having an advantage is knowing the Korean language, and thus being able to learn from the best. I think it's more because of the cultural difference in which Koreans tend to give their all to whatever their passion is. However, the language problem is fairly easily addressed. Korean language is relatively easy to learn when compared to overly-complicated languages like English. I just started learning it on my own (for unrelated reasons). There's no reason people can't spend a little bit of time each week learning Korean, if they really want to commit to being in top form.
That being said, I don't feel like penalizing people like Scan for being Korean and playing there is necessarily fair. Some tournaments that ban Koreans aren't a bad thing, but any amateur tourney with a larger prize pool should probably stay open for all (minus the actual professionals). It's not because of that. Koreans are much better, even the amateurs because in that country the game was professionalized and very popular, it's known that the bigger the player base is, the highest the level of the average and top players is, and it won't change even if you learn Korean like you said. Let me give you an example: South American Soccer vs Asian Soccer. it's well known that the best soccer players and national teams have always been from south america, and that's not because we have been born with superior genes to play soccer or anything ridiculous like that. it's because soccer is incredible popular here, everyone plays it, and since the player base is so huge you can play everywhere, there are always people from all skill levels to play with, thus everyone learns quickly and you get support if you want to be really good at it, and that's why the overall skill is much better than Asian players, which countries aren't that much into soccer, and even if some of them try to be as good as the south americans, there is still that huge gap of cultural difference, which is much more supportive in south america for soccer. so even after many decades of asians playing soccer they are still not even close to south america skill level. The same thing applies for broodwar .... We've moved past that point of discussion, it's been hashed to death. Please try not to respond to people just because you really feel the need to rebut the point. Solutions at this point, solutions. Bonyth and a few others have laid down some good thoughts. Would also be curious to hear from guys like Eon, TrutacZ, etc. sorry but i didn't felt like spending an hour to read everything, i was just giving a response to him, and in fact i edited my comment to add something else, which i don't know if have already been typed by someone else, but there it is
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Germany3128 Posts
Still really interested into BD's Team Foreign Allstars vs Team Ajae series. Will the foreigners cancel their participation? Or will players like trutaCz play against strong Koreans the moment they get some sure money. Will they follow everything they wrote in this thread? Or will they play the series?
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