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I was just watching Effort's stream where he was himself obsing Flash vs Jaedong, and some interesting things happened that made me wonder about some spells:
- Flash blinded 3 of JD's lurkers on a ramp, that were guarded by mutas, then tried to move up the ramp M&M. Doesn't the muta vision make this a completely pointless move? Anyway he lost all of his army there. - At many points JD had to face a large amount of tanks (with 4-5 vults) and he used dark swarm with ultras. Isn't this pointless as well? Tanks deal only splash dmg so ultras will take the full hit anyway. Even if swarm does move the target area, ultras are so large it doesn't matter. It was only really affecting the damage from vultures, which was very little anyway (ultras are large, vults deal concussive, and there were few vults).
Side-note: while googling around, I saw this comment, is it true? Sounds like BS:
Most players don't know that if you stack 2 dark swarms on top of each other even spells/special attacks won't affect lurkers.
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I was watching a stream the other day, PvZ, and the guy turtled with dark archons. When he tried to mind control zerg's units, he splitted dark archons and casted one by one. The thing is, that if you select 12 DA and tell them to cast the spell, only one of them will cast it. Unlike storms, when you may cast up to 12 storms in 1 place by accident.
Probably, they play standart too much, and don't know some neat but useless things about the game.
I've seen the same happen on WC3 streams, when top players wouldn't know hotkeys for rarely-used units and heroes.
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Swarm is always useful, because it helps lings survive, also negates unsieged tanks and vultures. For the blind thing, Flash obviously knew that JD would have vision with mutas, maybe he didn't know about the mutas before commiting or thought he could break anyway
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On November 22 2017 22:33 ortseam wrote: Swarm is always useful, because it helps lings survive, also negates unsieged tanks and vultures. For the blind thing, Flash obviously knew that JD would have vision with mutas, maybe he didn't know about the mutas before commiting or thought he could break anyway It was only ultras + swarm, and about the mutas yeah he saw them 100% and scanned & attacked while they were there
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On November 22 2017 22:52 LG)Sabbath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 22:33 ortseam wrote: Swarm is always useful, because it helps lings survive, also negates unsieged tanks and vultures. For the blind thing, Flash obviously knew that JD would have vision with mutas, maybe he didn't know about the mutas before commiting or thought he could break anyway It was only ultras + swarm, and about the mutas yeah he saw them 100% and scanned & attacked while they were there who won that game ?
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Flash, he lost those MM but took 3 expos and won easily with mech after the ultra/swarm thing I mentioned
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I'm really confused about most of statements in this thread.
- Flash blind: I would have to see the game to understand if Flash didnt see it or maybe he was behind and just wanted to go for it, idk. - Swarm over ultras / lings vs tank / vulture: Swarm gives a huge boost to ultra/ling. As you said, the splash still does some damage, but it's nowhere close to getting a full hit from a tank. Also, when units approach the tanks under swarm, tank shoots will be ahead of them (and usually the 1st line), so units that are behind the 1st line will suffer no dmg - MC with Dark Archons: I'm quite sure that if you select multiple DAs and cast MC they will all cast the spell (if the target is at range when you cast it) - Casting multiple swarms: doesn't change the dmg output or mechanics of dark swarm. What it does though is limiting the vision, so it's much more difficult to for example irradiate the lurkers or to count how many lurkers are under it (for example for a firebat bust)
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"The thing is, that if you select 12 DA and tell them to cast the spell, only one of them will cast it."
Or that one da has 150 mana in the bank and the others don't
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On November 23 2017 00:05 kogeT wrote: - Swarm over ultras / lings vs tank / vulture: Swarm gives a huge boost to ultra/ling. As you said, the splash still does some damage, but it's nowhere close to getting a full hit from a tank. Also, when units approach the tanks under swarm, tank shoots will be ahead of them (and usually the 1st line), so units that are behind the 1st line will suffer no dmg I'm specifically talking about pure ultra vs pure tank, which is what the battle was like in the game. Ultras are large enough that the swarm shot displacement shouldn't help them, but I haven't tested it. Otherwise, tanks do 100% explosive splash dmg which is unaffected by swarm, only displaced.
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- MC with Dark Archons: I'm quite sure that if you select multiple DAs and cast MC they will all cast the spell (if the target is at range when you cast it) No, not really. If the target is far away, they will all move to it, but only one of them (the closest to the target) will cast the spell. So if you have a group of DAs against their carriers, don't think and just spam C click C click C click. No spell will be casted twice upon the same unit, only once. This is probably because you cannot cast MC on your own units, and the spell itself works immediately.
This is also true about Feedback, but only if the enemy caster has enow energy to die from it. It you select 12 archons and cast FB on a full energy ht, only one will cast the spell...
I know one more thing about DAs and their spells, but it is probably the most useless fact about the entire game, and hard to explain too, so I won't bother >.<
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On November 23 2017 00:46 LG)Sabbath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2017 00:05 kogeT wrote: - Swarm over ultras / lings vs tank / vulture: Swarm gives a huge boost to ultra/ling. As you said, the splash still does some damage, but it's nowhere close to getting a full hit from a tank. Also, when units approach the tanks under swarm, tank shoots will be ahead of them (and usually the 1st line), so units that are behind the 1st line will suffer no dmg I'm specifically talking about pure ultra vs pure tank, which is what the battle was like in the game. Ultras are large enough that the swarm shot displacement shouldn't help them, but I haven't tested it. Otherwise, tanks do 100% explosive splash dmg which is unaffected by swarm, only displaced.
You are wrong. Swarm is saving a lot of HP for ultras despite their size.
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On November 23 2017 04:46 kogeT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2017 00:46 LG)Sabbath wrote:On November 23 2017 00:05 kogeT wrote: - Swarm over ultras / lings vs tank / vulture: Swarm gives a huge boost to ultra/ling. As you said, the splash still does some damage, but it's nowhere close to getting a full hit from a tank. Also, when units approach the tanks under swarm, tank shoots will be ahead of them (and usually the 1st line), so units that are behind the 1st line will suffer no dmg I'm specifically talking about pure ultra vs pure tank, which is what the battle was like in the game. Ultras are large enough that the swarm shot displacement shouldn't help them, but I haven't tested it. Otherwise, tanks do 100% explosive splash dmg which is unaffected by swarm, only displaced. You are wrong. Swarm is saving a lot of HP for ultras despite their size. Mind explaining how that's calculated?
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On November 23 2017 00:46 LG)Sabbath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2017 00:05 kogeT wrote: - Swarm over ultras / lings vs tank / vulture: Swarm gives a huge boost to ultra/ling. As you said, the splash still does some damage, but it's nowhere close to getting a full hit from a tank. Also, when units approach the tanks under swarm, tank shoots will be ahead of them (and usually the 1st line), so units that are behind the 1st line will suffer no dmg I'm specifically talking about pure ultra vs pure tank, which is what the battle was like in the game. Ultras are large enough that the swarm shot displacement shouldn't help them, but I haven't tested it. Otherwise, tanks do 100% explosive splash dmg which is unaffected by swarm, only displaced.
I have just tested it. Swarm helps the utlralisk a lot....The shot displacement still works so if you are targeting one ultralisk alone.. As tanks tend to fire the leading ultralisk this will benefit even if you are talking about pure ultralisks.
Now please tell me more about DAs! Thanks for letting us know about the MC trick btw.. stealing carriers now a lot easier!
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On November 22 2017 21:31 LG)Sabbath wrote:
- At many points JD had to face a large amount of tanks (with 4-5 vults) and he used dark swarm with ultras. Isn't this pointless as well? Tanks deal only splash dmg so ultras will take the full hit anyway. Even if swarm does move the target area, ultras are so large it doesn't matter. It was only really affecting the damage from vultures, which was very little anyway (ultras are large, vults deal concussive, and there were few vults).
On November 23 2017 00:46 LG)Sabbath wrote:
I'm specifically talking about pure ultra vs pure tank, which is what the battle was like in the game. Ultras are large enough that the swarm shot displacement shouldn't help them, but I haven't tested it. Otherwise, tanks do 100% explosive splash dmg which is unaffected by swarm, only displaced.
Maybe you shouldn't post stuff as if it was a fact if you're not sure about it... but at least add "I think" or "From what I know"... that should be a given for any situation you're in... unless you intend to deceive people...
And maybe you should change your above posts so that people won't get confused in the future.
Can we agree that:
Sieged tanks do not deal only splash damage, nor do they deal explosive splash damage. They deal explosive damage on the hit-location, and they deal radial splash damage around that hit-location (would be neat if someone could confirm that the splash is not also explosive, Liquidpedia isn't specific here).
Swarm-displacements works perfectly fine even on large units like ultras.
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I read 3 other full threads and reposted things I read there, it's obviously still my opinion, no need to get offended. Also my other post said that I haven't tested it, read again.
On November 23 2017 05:06 HaFnium wrote: I have just tested it. Swarm helps the utlralisk a lot....The shot displacement still works so if you are targeting one ultralisk alone.. As tanks tend to fire the leading ultralisk this will benefit even if you are talking about pure ultralisks.
Now please tell me more about DAs! Thanks for letting us know about the MC trick btw.. stealing carriers now a lot easier! Thank you, I'm still at work so wasn't able to test it myself yet 😊
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I'm not offended, I just try to keep this forum clean of confusing posts.
At the bottom line, there are 2-3 posts in this thread here where you state wrong stuff without relativising it (see your first post about tank damage and ultra-swarm-hit-displacement e.g.)... why not just edit them visibly quickly?
The other thing would just be a nice bonus. It's just a sign of a lack of care for your language (and for your readers) if you say "something is the case" - and then relativise it... just don't say it's the case in the first place or indicate that you're not sure. You use the indicative if you're sure about something - or you have to make clear that you're not beforehand, otherwise there's a fraction in the logical structure of your sentence + Show Spoiler +something like that, it's just improper use of the forms and means that language offers us... ... It's just misleading to say, e.g., "Napoleon was german, but I'm not sure about it"....Better would be to indicate that it's a proposition: "I think Napoleon was german, but..."
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sounds like flash made a mistake or was not in range to see the mutas providing vision for the mm, and swarming ultras vs tank + vult is very good in almost every situation, tanks only deal splash vs ultras under swarm so if ur ultras r spread they will take very little damage
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On November 22 2017 21:31 LG)Sabbath wrote:Side-note: while googling around, I saw this comment, is it true? Sounds like BS: Show nested quote +Most players don't know that if you stack 2 dark swarms on top of each other even spells/special attacks won't affect lurkers.
This is BS, swarm doesn't stack and a spell like storm or yamato will affect units underneath it.
This guy might have gotten confused because if you burrow under a swarm, they are immune to splash damage. So burrowed lurker under swarm takes no damage from a tank.
HOWEVER, if you stacked another lurker on top of a lurker under swarm, one of them will die due to splash received from a tank shot hitting the lurker on top of it.
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On November 23 2017 08:06 razorsuKe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2017 21:31 LG)Sabbath wrote:Side-note: while googling around, I saw this comment, is it true? Sounds like BS: Most players don't know that if you stack 2 dark swarms on top of each other even spells/special attacks won't affect lurkers. This is BS, swarm doesn't stack and a spell like storm or yamato will affect units underneath it. This guy might have gotten confused because if you burrow under a swarm, they are immune to splash damage. So burrowed lurker under swarm takes no damage from a tank. HOWEVER, if you stacked another lurker on top of a lurker under swarm, one of them will die due to splash received from a tank shot hitting the lurker on top of it. Yeah sounded like BS, just tried it anyway and it's BS
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Norway28260 Posts
just entering to say that shall_burn is right about DA's and that swarm with ultra vs tank gives you a huge boost compared to just ultra.
And that Sabbath is right overall, a lot of players, even top ones, sometimes lack knowledge about rarely used spells and abilities. I'm pretty certain Flash knew that the mutas would still supply vision for the lurkers, though.
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