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I guess then I can just say have fun playing BW, maybe you find a way to win consistently vs 3 hatch hydra without knowing or even having an interest in knowing how to 1 rax expand properly.
May I attempt a translation to actual advice?
Your build is wrong, and correcting this will benefit you more now than getting into details about M&M vs. hydra.
As a high level player, I think you've forgotten the intermediate steps between novice and your position. See: Curse of Knowledge. Nobody opens the box (or downloads SC:RM) and immediately starts the Ayumi Build.
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The basicest of bullet points I've found (i'm 1600 so im probably closer to your level to help you out here) is: - Stay on top of upgrades. 3h hydra/hydra only styles generally rely on their upgrades being fast. If you fall behind in upgrades hydras soak up a lot of damage and you die. - Siege tanks have helped me handle this style a TON. Some people here said not to use them, but i think with our poor micro/macro its easier to do siege tanks. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ - drop a ton. i noticed a lot of the hydra ball has to stay together. lone hydras are easy to die to a drop if you get it down ebfore they snipe the ship.
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Yeah m8 you have some underlying problems if u cant beat 3hatch hydra, thats a build that only works against toss. You need m&m range upgrade rines, stim, +1 armor/ weapon, and a machine shop/ siege mode and literally just pack in and turtle. Zerg cant affect ur economy at all then and then u just overrun him off 2 base vs his 2 base or drop his main. gg.
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United States1430 Posts
The problem here isn't really how to deal with hydras. I suspect your opponent is a great measure better than you and that no matter what he did be it mass muta, mass ling, mass hydraling, that you'd lose. And an uninformed player would probably think "How do I deal with these specific unit compositions?" which would be missing the point entirely. Especially at lower levels you can win by simply hamfisting your way to victory by just making a ton of shit and having the most basic ideas of army control.
So it's not really a case of what to do specifically vs. hydras. And the way you "deal" with hydras as opposed to any other composition is that you simply roll it over. To make a comparison of just how unoptimal mass hydras are,compared to any other possible unit comp a zerg could make bar mass queens, hydras are like going 1:4 versus marine medic. Compared to lurkers and lings, that's more 1:1. Hydras are way more expensive than marines, do half damage to marines (5), have lower DPS by a lot compared to stimmed marines, and you need vastly more hydras than marines to even remotely take favorable engages, which is hard to imagine when marine medic is cheaper. Overall hydras just suck absolute balls in cost efficiency versus marine medic and almost any other unit comp would be better.
The only remotely possible time for hydras to do well vs. a Terran is a 3 hatch hydra all-in timing attack when Terran is still on a low marine count pre-marine range on only 1-2 barracks.
Also, I'm very confused as to why you wouldn't show the replay. What is the worst that could happen? Who knows, at the very least you'll get some advice that you like and you can filter out the rest. If you're scared about how "bad" your play will be viewed in the eyes of the commenters, don't be. This is a very passionate community that really looks to support, help people out, and give constructive criticism, if they ask.
There have also been a lot of people before who regard strategy or decision making as their main problem, while claiming to be decent players. However, people generally don't tend to be the best judges of themselves. You see the replay and they get supply blocked constantly, idle SCVs, hover money, etc etc. Maybe they don't even make beyond 10 SCVs while their opponent on the other hand does have proper mechanics and economic management. Is the problem then really about how to specifically deal with the unit composition of mass mutas or mass anything? Especially with a game like Brood War, unit compositions don't have as much emphasis as a game like Sc2. In fact, a game like Brood War especially emphasizes mechanics like no other.
So, by all means, you'd be doing yourself a big favor and maybe some folks who are reluctant and/or suspicious of what your true problems are. By providing that replay you give us vastly more agency to help you help yourself. If however you don't, then how much we can help you analyze the problem and improve is highly limited. But if having a more lighter brush on advice is what you desire, so be it.
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i'm going to plus 1 this andrew, tvz vs 3 hatch hydra doesn't fit into the same sentence. it is like saying you are having difficulty doing bio vs protoss, except in your case your "bio" is the terran race. there's a good number of things the zerg can do if he doesn't outright kill you with mass hydras, and that is because he's already getting away with his style and can do whatever he likes. luckily for him, the natural lurker transition is a stone's throw away.
do the basic builds well and you won't have an issue. watch a solid replay and see when you move out doing a 1 rax expand. i can't stress it enough, if you can't recite such a build order or know how many of which units you should have at a certain point, then that is exactly what you need to work on, no if's or buts.
i think the key for you is right here. If I try to leave base, he has mass hydra split into three groups and he just attacks from three sides simultaneously. make him build those sunkens, keep his drone count honest, tech up. or kill his hydras if that's all he's making. this bit sounds easy, but it is really as easy as it sounds when your early game stuff is spot on.
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don't believe ty2's lies, mass hydra is OP vs Terran.. he just wants to keep the b.o to himself
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SchAmToo: thanks, good point on the tank being possibly sub-optimal for a pro, but easier for our level
funnybananaman: thought about tending towards a turtle strategy also, but when I try this, he expands and has econ to overrun in later game
Ty2 and nanaoei: this is sobering, but you're probably right, there's probably more fundamental problems at fault
I really hate the direction blizzard took with this cloud crap but I managed to get a replay out. This is one of a few. After a few losses I got desperate and tried here to replace 2nd and 3rd rax with factories, hoping tanks could help me.
- At 12:00 I'm at 99 food vs. his 76 food and have a bad battle at 6o'clock - At 14:43 I'm at 107 food vs. his 88 food and have a bad battle at natural - At 16:50, I do ok, but he bounces back, re-engage at 17:25, I'm ok, nope 18:00 he overruns me again - At 20:30 I'm 138 food to his 114 and he has no trouble stopping my 4th base at 9o'clock
Please be gentle
HERE IS REPLAY. Patch 1.21.5.4261|enUS
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supply blocked at 60, at 84 you have like 30 scvs on 2 base on 84 supply do you have stim? i dont think you have stim, or you just never press the stim button
it looks like you're spending your money but its just cause you barely have scvs. Marine production is halted >50% of the time. And mnm without stim is not a viable strat.
then you don't leapfrog your tanks forward, but you move them in front of your mnm and let them sniped before you siege.
tldr; get stim, get scvs.
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United States1430 Posts
Thanks for taking our words into consideration and providing the replay. I'll be breaking my response into some specific problems I'm seeing, and then my advice on what you should take away and focus on. It might come off overwhelming at first, but just keep reading until the end where I'll make things simple/neat for you.
Problems:
+ Show Spoiler +1) Idling and not making SCVs. Before the 5 minute mark I counted 8 instances of this occurring, the largest one being between 3:18 - 3:29 with 11 seconds of no SCV making. For the rest of the game there are dozens of more SCV hiccups. Those "lost" SCVs not mining adds up to fewer resources to make more SCVs, other buildings, etc. Hundreds of resources are lost in a sense.
2) Transferring too many SCVs in the beginning. You have 8 SCVs in the natural and 8 SCVs in the main. That's a problem because the main base has 2 more mineral patches than the natural, so you're losing a few hundred minerals, which is a big deal in the early game.
3) Your +1 engie bay build is inefficient and has a lot of redundancies. You make a refinery too early, so by the time the engie bay finishes you have 176 gas. That's 76 gas that is redundant and 100 minerals on the refinery that could've been spent elsewhere at the time and 100 mins spent 10 seconds later. You also don't upgrade from the engie bay for over a minute later.
4) Lack of build strategy. There is some basic strategy that needs to be incorporated. Your play feels like you're winging it when I see you have 2 barracks and an engie bay, but follow that up w/ a factory and siege tanks. You want to have your build/strategy based on solid logic. Making 2 barracks and an engineering bay suggests you're going to have a lot of marines with upgrades. Usually that is followed up and complimented by an academy for stim/marine range/medics which makes your marines tremendously stronger. However, the unnecessary factory/siege tanks completely works against that. You have a lot of marines that are exponentially weaker, siege tanks w/ highly limited use, and you miss all sense of vital timing attacks to damage zerg early on.
5) Not having enough SCVs in general. A lot of the dozen of SCV hiccups really add up, and it shows. At the 9:30 mark you have 21 SCVs mining minerals when the average/decent player will already have upwards of 44. This is a problem of not building SCVs constantly.
Okay, and now for the takeaways.
+ Show Spoiler +There are 3 basic things every beginner should focus on 1) Constantly build workers 2) Don't hover money 3) Don't get supply blocked You have number 2 down but it's undercut by your poor resource gathering. Right now you should primarily focus on constantly building workers. Your game will improve tremendously and you'll be miles ahead of the competiton. I'd advise you to when looking at a replay, don't move the screen away from your command center. Just stare at it for the entire game and see how many times it goes dark or there's an idle SCV. You'll be surprised at yourself. Again, focus on constantly building workers. Second, you should focus on the order of buildings. You want to go 2 raxes, gas, academy, 1-2 more rax, then factory. That's beginner friendly. Just make sure that you don't hover money and only build a new building if all of your barracks/CCs, etc. are already building a unit. The order of buildings is all you need. For a later date If you're feeling more ambitious you can download a pro replay and copy what they do for the first 4 minutes supply by supply. I have one picked out for you here. + Show Spoiler +https://www.dropbox.com/s/i6yh0q8ytxo2gw4/2210%20Last%20vs%20momoka%40Z.rep?dl=0 On a side note, I notice you went for command center after barracks at 14 supply. That's pretty risky and zergs especially at lower levels will pool first so I'd discourage going for that and doing a safer 18 CC supply variant w/ 1-2 marines. Overall, the two main things I want you to focus on is constantly building workers and having a semblance of a build order. If you can, work on not getting supply blocked and spending your money as well.
That's pretty much my advice, but I'm going to add on one last big note. That note is about improving, which you've taken a significant big first step in by recognizing in the first place. You'd be surprised that many other beginners are completely blind to and stubborn about this. Forgive the length of my post.
+ Show Spoiler +Notice how I did not talk about army movements, micro, decision making, complex unit compositions, tactics, or overall strategy. What I did talk about were your fundamentals, i.e. spending money, making workers, and basic build order. That is because that is all that matters at your level.
Looking at that game, your opponent is actually similar in level to you and just a couple of leaps better. An uninformed and low level player would think that if they improved their army control, unit composition, decision making, grouping of units, engagements, tactics, they'd outplay their opponent that way.
While that may be true, at that level that kind of thinking is toxic and detrimental to improving your play. Ideas of decision making, tactics, micro, etc, are difficult to implement in the heat of a game, and which decision to choose or how to move your units in what ways is even more difficult and imprecise to know. However, the decision of having more resources, sending SCVs to mine, making workers, spending money; all of that is brain dead simple. And if you just did that, you'd have thousands more resources than your opponent who at your level has really horrible resource collection.
And for you there is so much room to easily improve. For high level players hyper optimizing would mean getting 20 marines instead of 18. For you, instead of having 4 marines to an opponent's 5 marines, some easy fixes makes that 10-12 marines. It's easier to spend 1-2 hours in singleplayer making sure you got a build down pat for the rest of your life then slowly toiling away trying to make great decisions in ladder games.
Your opponent is setting up little cool figurines on their table. Oh, superior decision making, tactics, micro, army control, unit comps. Then you come in with your macro figurine and shove all of his shit off the table w/ one sweep and just fucking dominate. That is StarCraft. Obviously an oversimplification, but at your level and especially against mass hydras (no offense), if you just have more shit, you will win no matter how good his micro is.
Edit: It's a point I didn't iterate strongly enough, but I'll put it down here now. Macro is by far the most important and impactful part of the game. It is also the easiest thing to improve upon.
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Wow Ty2, I'm completely humbled that you took so much time to explain things to a stranger like this. I will make your post my personal guidebook .
On Problems: 1) yes, indeed - I really don't know how to remember to do this without gaps ... once I tried to make a mental cycle of "bases,supply,produce,battle" and repeat it all game 2) didn't even know there were less patches at natural :/ 3) yes, need build 4) same 5) This is huge!, I had no idea I was less than 50% of where I should be. This figure hits hard, I need to improve.
On takeaways: 1) great idea, I'll review replays like this 2) yes actionable advice 2 raxes, gas, academy, 1-2 rax, factory, and have the replay to study 3) yes, looking for a mental model of sorts to remember to do this without gaps
And my final favorite bit:
It's easier to spend 1-2 hours in singleplayer making sure you got a build down pat for the rest of your life then slowly toiling away trying to make great decisions in ladder games.
Consider it done!
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Get a bunker at your natural as late as possible, then a second bunker as late as possible. Meanwhile mass marines and medics. You can add tanks if you want to, but vs pure hydralisks it's not necessary. Just sit on two bases and get a huge army, then push out. Hydralisks get worse the bigger the armies are. Leave some units in bunkers at home to prevent counter attacks.
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On July 20 2018 02:04 Cryoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 01:08 andrewl wrote:cryoc: You want some advice on how to play but you refuse to give any information about the game at hand and basically only complain how there is seemingly no way for you to win because your opponent counters everything? I am describing what is happening to me in game. Its tone carries my frustration, but I am NOT claiming that there's no way for me to win. I know that 3-hatch hydras don't trouble good players, which is why I came here to ask for help. There is no way you really can get good advice, including strategical advice, when we don't even know how you even started the game. I'm not good enough to follow strict build orders, but in these games I start with supply at 9/10, then the same SCV builds 1 barracks, then at 14 I am building command center, supply, marine. That's when I lose sight of a build and just get academy/ebay/5rax as money comes in. I guess then I can just say have fun playing BW, maybe you find a way to win consistently vs 3 hatch hydra without knowing or even having an interest in knowing how to 1 rax expand properly.
Cryoc, please stop trash talking people with that attachment to learn build orders as the first priority of improving our owns gameplay, because its bad advice on this level. I neither do know how to 1 rax expand properly and still have even score in tournament matches against you.
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On July 21 2018 18:15 radley wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2018 02:04 Cryoc wrote:On July 20 2018 01:08 andrewl wrote:cryoc: You want some advice on how to play but you refuse to give any information about the game at hand and basically only complain how there is seemingly no way for you to win because your opponent counters everything? I am describing what is happening to me in game. Its tone carries my frustration, but I am NOT claiming that there's no way for me to win. I know that 3-hatch hydras don't trouble good players, which is why I came here to ask for help. There is no way you really can get good advice, including strategical advice, when we don't even know how you even started the game. I'm not good enough to follow strict build orders, but in these games I start with supply at 9/10, then the same SCV builds 1 barracks, then at 14 I am building command center, supply, marine. That's when I lose sight of a build and just get academy/ebay/5rax as money comes in. I guess then I can just say have fun playing BW, maybe you find a way to win consistently vs 3 hatch hydra without knowing or even having an interest in knowing how to 1 rax expand properly. Cryoc, please stop trash talking people with that attachment to learn build orders as the first priority of improving our owns gameplay, because its bad advice on this level. I neither do know how to 1 rax expand properly and still have even score in tournament matches against you. You know my comment wasn't directed at 1 rax expand in particular but rather that this guy refused to even consider that his macro might be the main issue of his problem vs hydra opening? And to have good macro includes to have your opening down. And I doubt that your "lack" of knowledge regarding 1 rax expand is even close to andrewls knowledge, I mean he doesn't even build his first supply and CC at the correct timing.
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On July 21 2018 20:13 Cryoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 18:15 radley wrote:On July 20 2018 02:04 Cryoc wrote:On July 20 2018 01:08 andrewl wrote:cryoc: You want some advice on how to play but you refuse to give any information about the game at hand and basically only complain how there is seemingly no way for you to win because your opponent counters everything? I am describing what is happening to me in game. Its tone carries my frustration, but I am NOT claiming that there's no way for me to win. I know that 3-hatch hydras don't trouble good players, which is why I came here to ask for help. There is no way you really can get good advice, including strategical advice, when we don't even know how you even started the game. I'm not good enough to follow strict build orders, but in these games I start with supply at 9/10, then the same SCV builds 1 barracks, then at 14 I am building command center, supply, marine. That's when I lose sight of a build and just get academy/ebay/5rax as money comes in. I guess then I can just say have fun playing BW, maybe you find a way to win consistently vs 3 hatch hydra without knowing or even having an interest in knowing how to 1 rax expand properly. Cryoc, please stop trash talking people with that attachment to learn build orders as the first priority of improving our owns gameplay, because its bad advice on this level. I neither do know how to 1 rax expand properly and still have even score in tournament matches against you. You know my comment wasn't directed at 1 rax expand in particular but rather that this guy refused to even consider that his macro might be the main issue of his problem vs hydra opening? And to have good macro includes to have your opening down. And I doubt that your "lack" of knowledge regarding 1 rax expand is even close to andrewls knowledge, I mean he doesn't even build his first supply and CC at the correct timing. you told OP he made you "angry" by not asking for help correctly. what did you expect? do you think "i'm angry at you because i think you're being stupid" is how you get people to listen to you? if your goal is for him to take your advice then simply be respectful!
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On July 20 2018 00:37 Cryoc wrote:
Honestly this post including your OP makes me angry. You want some advice on how to play but you refuse to give any information about the game at hand and basically only complain how there is seemingly no way for you to win because your opponent counters everything? Why even bother asking for help in the first place then? There is no way you really can get good advice, including strategical advice, when we don't even know how you even started the game.
Cryoc didn't tell him he was stupid, he was complaining for good reasons. There is nothing wrong with telling s.o. that you're angry if you have good reasons, no? That hurts your feelings?
Mostly, Cryoc (and not only he) seemed to dislike how the guy didn't want to post a replay even after being asked to in several follow up posts. He left us in the dark about his actual skill, telling us he tried all kinds of things - well, if you don't know how to try them, they won't work obviously. OP is typical for s.o. who didn't practice or look up stuff properly. (I still tried to help him btw, I'm not saying he's stupid or an a-hole or anything) Now we can discuss about how properly means something different to different people, or how not everyone has to play this game super try-hard, but as we have learned now - unsurprisingly - the problem stems from the fact that OP didn't even know or care about the basics of basics of BW (like "build workers"... "not get supply blocked"). From the problems outlined in the OP, one could expect that this was the case. The tone was rather aggressive ("What the f*** do I do?"). The post was also ignoring the quality standards for posts that ask for help.
Now he posted a replay, he got the help he needed in the form he prefers, Cryoc let out his righteous anger, all is fine on earth.
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On July 21 2018 21:58 brickrd wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 20:13 Cryoc wrote:On July 21 2018 18:15 radley wrote:On July 20 2018 02:04 Cryoc wrote:On July 20 2018 01:08 andrewl wrote:cryoc: You want some advice on how to play but you refuse to give any information about the game at hand and basically only complain how there is seemingly no way for you to win because your opponent counters everything? I am describing what is happening to me in game. Its tone carries my frustration, but I am NOT claiming that there's no way for me to win. I know that 3-hatch hydras don't trouble good players, which is why I came here to ask for help. There is no way you really can get good advice, including strategical advice, when we don't even know how you even started the game. I'm not good enough to follow strict build orders, but in these games I start with supply at 9/10, then the same SCV builds 1 barracks, then at 14 I am building command center, supply, marine. That's when I lose sight of a build and just get academy/ebay/5rax as money comes in. I guess then I can just say have fun playing BW, maybe you find a way to win consistently vs 3 hatch hydra without knowing or even having an interest in knowing how to 1 rax expand properly. Cryoc, please stop trash talking people with that attachment to learn build orders as the first priority of improving our owns gameplay, because its bad advice on this level. I neither do know how to 1 rax expand properly and still have even score in tournament matches against you. You know my comment wasn't directed at 1 rax expand in particular but rather that this guy refused to even consider that his macro might be the main issue of his problem vs hydra opening? And to have good macro includes to have your opening down. And I doubt that your "lack" of knowledge regarding 1 rax expand is even close to andrewls knowledge, I mean he doesn't even build his first supply and CC at the correct timing. you told OP he made you "angry" by not asking for help correctly. what did you expect? do you think "i'm angry at you because i think you're being stupid" is how you get people to listen to you? if your goal is for him to take your advice then simply be respectful! My tone could have been better, I guess. I will ignore future OP with such a mindset.
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The "What the f*** do I do?" was from simple frustration, not aggression.
I did not post properly, it should have been in strategy forum and started with [H] and my future posts will follow the guideline.
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On July 22 2018 02:22 andrewl wrote: The "What the f*** do I do?" was from simple frustration, not aggression.
I did not post properly, it should have been in strategy forum and started with [H] and my future posts will follow the guideline.
Also, if you can, please let us know how it goes the next times you play with your friend. And if you have quick questions, the "simple questions simple answers" thread in the strategy section has a lot of really great advice. Good luck!
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On July 22 2018 02:22 andrewl wrote: The "What the f*** do I do?" was from simple frustration, not aggression.
I did not post properly, it should have been in strategy forum and started with [H] and my future posts will follow the guideline.
FYI the players giving you advice in this thread are very very good and well known in the community (not talking about myself here, I didn't analyse your replay).
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On July 21 2018 20:13 Cryoc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2018 18:15 radley wrote:On July 20 2018 02:04 Cryoc wrote:On July 20 2018 01:08 andrewl wrote:cryoc: You want some advice on how to play but you refuse to give any information about the game at hand and basically only complain how there is seemingly no way for you to win because your opponent counters everything? I am describing what is happening to me in game. Its tone carries my frustration, but I am NOT claiming that there's no way for me to win. I know that 3-hatch hydras don't trouble good players, which is why I came here to ask for help. There is no way you really can get good advice, including strategical advice, when we don't even know how you even started the game. I'm not good enough to follow strict build orders, but in these games I start with supply at 9/10, then the same SCV builds 1 barracks, then at 14 I am building command center, supply, marine. That's when I lose sight of a build and just get academy/ebay/5rax as money comes in. I guess then I can just say have fun playing BW, maybe you find a way to win consistently vs 3 hatch hydra without knowing or even having an interest in knowing how to 1 rax expand properly. Cryoc, please stop trash talking people with that attachment to learn build orders as the first priority of improving our owns gameplay, because its bad advice on this level. I neither do know how to 1 rax expand properly and still have even score in tournament matches against you. You know my comment wasn't directed at 1 rax expand in particular but rather that this guy refused to even consider that his macro might be the main issue of his problem vs hydra opening? And to have good macro includes to have your opening down. And I doubt that your "lack" of knowledge regarding 1 rax expand is even close to andrewls knowledge, I mean he doesn't even build his first supply and CC at the correct timing.
You know my comment wasn't directed at your 1 comment in this particular thread, but was written taking into mind that you do these is similar threads on daily basis. You always stick with and whine everything on bad build orders. Which is in fact hurting players being on rank like 1500 and lower. Hurting a lot. It's not a level when you learn build orders. And no, macro has nothing to builders, it's totally different thing, related to gameplay mechanics. But in fact it has much bigger priority to learn/train than your build orders.
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