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It is a shower thought game, how the not so used units and structures can be tweaked so they see more play without breaking the balance of the game, so I came up with:
Protoss:
Shield Batter - placed next to another structure, it will not allow small units like zerglings/marines to squeeze between the structures. It will add a strategical option for protosses with a fair trade off.
Scout - The vision range upgrade is exchanged for detection ability upgrade. Now scouts can see invisible units and provide alternative detection route for protoss.
Dark Archon - Its born with 85 initial energy, so its a better reactive unit vs mutalisks and carriers
Zerg:
Queen - can infest protoss gateways and they can produce infested zealots (same values as infested terrans) but without the ability to move the gateway around the map. So, this ability is not completely useless in ZvP match up.
Queen - Parasite can not be destroyed by medics. So it can be used in ZvT too.
Terran:
Medic - Restoration cost 150 and is a small AoE, like 1/4 of plague area so it can fight it off to some extend but on a high price.
Ghost - It comes with a researched invisibility upgrade. The unit is too costly anyway and has too many costly upgrades to become even remotely useful, so getting one of the upgrades for free might make it a more desirable option.
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I don‘t think it's useful for pvz(hydralisk rush),maybe reduce the photon cannon build time 1~2 seconds better?
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"Scout - The vision range upgrade is exchanged for detection ability upgrade. Now scouts can see invisible units and provide alternative detection route for protoss."
And that's how protoss has never build an observer again and killed all terrans with 2 base mass dragon/ carrier. :D
I also believe that units like ghost, DA, queen are very useful, it's just the pure mechanical complexity of the game that makes them very unpopular. I can totally see few queens casting parasite/broodling on different targets, ghosts lockingdown T/P units or DA maelstorminng, feedbacking and mind controlling whatever target shows up. Problem is it's just hard to do, because there are many other things to do at the same time.
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Dark archons should have some radiation like magic ability with long range that can use like irradiate to kill lurkers hydras and bio things. ~75 energy. Scouts , increased movement speed should be standard. Move disruption web from Corsair to scout. Shield battery- can uproot and walk around the map, and dig itself into strategic locations. ~25 energy.
Queen, replace brood ling and prasiite with a map vision ability, similar to Comsat scan, ~50 energy. Move plague to queen and combine with ensnare as just 1 ability with a new name. ~ 100 energy.
Ghost , upgrade to launch nuclear mussels without red giveaway indication. New ability to climb up and down terrain cliffs without drop ships. Defensive matrix ability moves from science vessel to ghost.
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On October 10 2018 19:43 Yanokabo wrote: Dark archons should have some radiation like magic ability with long range that can use like irradiate to kill lurkers hydras and bio things. ~75 energy. Scouts , increased movement speed should be standard. Move disruption web from Corsair to scout. Shield battery- can uproot and walk around the map, and dig itself into strategic locations. ~25 energy.
Queen, replace brood ling and prasiite with a map vision ability, similar to Comsat scan, ~50 energy. Move plague to queen and combine with ensnare as just 1 ability with a new name. ~ 100 energy.
Ghost , upgrade to launch nuclear mussels without red giveaway indication. New ability to climb up and down terrain cliffs without drop ships. Defensive matrix ability moves from science vessel to ghost.
What are you smoking. :D
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On October 10 2018 18:45 M2 wrote: Queen - can infest protoss gateways and they can produce infested zealots (same values as infested terrans) but without the ability to move the gateway around the map. So, this ability is not completely useless in ZvP match up. Protoss has zero units in their arsenal against Infested Terrans. Dragoons fire slowly, deal low damage, and often waste shots on a single unit. Templars aren't bad but they require energy and Infested Terrans are fast enough to run through storms. Reavers have terrible pathing for firing, and again tend to waste shots on a single unit. Besides, a gateway is much easier to find than a command center.
If you want to see how broken Infested Terrans are against Protoss, check out the map Holy World.
EDIT: also the ghost idea wouldn't work. Not for balance reasons necessarily, but because the game is coded that if you're invisible and have energy you lose it. Essentially the ghost will be invisible, but you can't use lockdown anymore. You can test this by giving dark templars energy in EUD.
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On October 10 2018 19:49 RWLabs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2018 18:45 M2 wrote: Queen - can infest protoss gateways and they can produce infested zealots (same values as infested terrans) but without the ability to move the gateway around the map. So, this ability is not completely useless in ZvP match up. Protoss has zero units in their arsenal against Infested Terrans. Dragoons fire slowly, deal low damage, and often waste shots on a single unit. Templars aren't bad but they require energy and Infested Terrans are fast enough to run through storms. Reavers have terrible pathing for firing, and again tend to waste shots on a single unit. Besides, a gateway is much easier to find than a command center. If you want to see how broken Infested Terrans are against Protoss, check out the map Holy World. EDIT: also the ghost idea wouldn't work. Not for balance reasons necessarily, but because the game is coded that if you're invisible and have energy you lose it. Essentially the ghost will be invisible, but you can't use lockdown anymore. You can test this by giving dark templars energy in EUD. I agree that inefsted terrans are very strong vs protoss, but the getaways placements will be decided by the protoss, additionally they cannot be moved around the map, so protoss should be able to destroy them most of the times after they get infested and zerg will have to invest in queens for this so it should be a fair trade off, additionally it will promote the queens usage.
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On October 10 2018 19:46 kogeT wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2018 19:43 Yanokabo wrote: Dark archons should have some radiation like magic ability with long range that can use like irradiate to kill lurkers hydras and bio things. ~75 energy. Scouts , increased movement speed should be standard. Move disruption web from Corsair to scout. Shield battery- can uproot and walk around the map, and dig itself into strategic locations. ~25 energy.
Queen, replace brood ling and prasiite with a map vision ability, similar to Comsat scan, ~50 energy. Move plague to queen and combine with ensnare as just 1 ability with a new name. ~ 100 energy.
Ghost , upgrade to launch nuclear mussels without red giveaway indication. New ability to climb up and down terrain cliffs without drop ships. Defensive matrix ability moves from science vessel to ghost. What are you smoking. :D
The da ability would be a red energy fire type of graphic, looking kind of like feedback/maelstrom with flames too. Affects 1 unit at once with splash damage. Queen ability would be called infernal sight, and perhaps even allows Zerg to see researching abilities or making units in enemy structures in a fps type of sight while it’s active. I do feel pretty high right now so I’m coming up with extra smart ideas. Medic, restoration should be aoe, and actually medic should get defensive matrix and not ghost. Fits more with the medic unit identity of healer. Optical flare moved to science vessel. Ghost new ability called entrench, increasing hp + 100 and damage +25. Ghost goes to a prone position and increases its fire rate speed too so it can defend tanks and fortify positions better then vultures.~75 energy. Ghost could also have a ~200-~250 energy ability called killshot that can snipe units from up to like 50 hexes away, or maybe even entire maps range, doing a 200 -300 hp sniper shot, to help Terran break turtling late game opponents.
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Well, discussions like this are purely mental wanking, as none of them will probably ever be implemented because there are no balance patches to be coming, but…
On October 10 2018 18:45 M2 wrote: It is a shower thought game, how the not so used units and structures can be tweaked so they see more play without breaking the balance of the game, so I came up with:
Protoss:
Shield Batter - placed next to another structure, it will not allow small units like zerglings/marines to squeeze between the structures. It will add a strategical option for protosses with a fair trade off. A wall-against-everything-no-worries building (with few few HP though) that also insta-recharges the shields of all defending units nearby? Newbies who are bad with wall-ins would probably like that, but something tells me that this would be completely broken in more capable hands…
Scout - The vision range upgrade is exchanged for detection ability upgrade. Now scouts can see invisible units and provide alternative detection route for protoss. So Observers are now very fast and super tanky (so nevermind permanent cloaking, who needs that if you can just shrug off the shots?) and can attack (with some heavy punch against Ovies, Vessels…) and are effectively available only about 1 game minute after Observers (you can produce a Scout right away and pre-position it anywhere on the map you need it before the upgrade kicks in). Again, how is this not going to be completely imbalanced? Cheaper Scout upgrades and maybe a +attack range on the range upgrade is really all the would be needed to make it more viable (with its short range, high cost per unit and slow attack animation it loses out in every aspect against Mutas and Wraiths as far as harassment potential goes, some more attack range would help a lot with that).
Dark Archon - Its born with 85 initial energy, so its a better reactive unit vs mutalisks and carriers Just get the energy upgrade.
Zerg:
Queen - can infest protoss gateways and they can produce infested zealots (same values as infested terrans) but without the ability to move the gateway around the map. So, this ability is not completely useless in ZvP match up. Well, this would either end up basically never used anyway (how many CCs are actually being infested?) or completely broken (if you take over a Protoss base with multipe Gateways that would be a lot of Infested Terrans/Zealots, so you could start literally carpet bombing the Protoss with them).
Queen - Parasite can not be destroyed by medics. So it can be used in ZvT too. Meh. I mean, few Terrans even get the restoration upgrade, and if they do, just to get rid of Parasites, than you actually forced them to spend resources on that, which is already a win.
Terran:
Medic - Restoration cost 150 and is a small AoE, like 1/4 of plague area so it can fight it off to some extend but on a high price. Because Terran need help in TvZ…
Ghost - It comes with a researched invisibility upgrade. The unit is too costly anyway and has too many costly upgrades to become even remotely useful, so getting one of the upgrades for free might make it a more desirable option.
think to really make Ghosts more feasible you'd have to something with the Lockdown ability actually (maybe give it a slight AoE – although that would completely wreck air, so better not). What else do you want to do with them? As a fighting units they are mostly useless.
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These posts are great ! I always laugh a bit when I read them ! I can think of something that FBH said before: vultures to kill workers (probes and drones) in 3 shots, not 2! This is the only thing I propose ! Those with queen acting as a defiler + comsat station and a moving Shield Battery are great
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No offense anyone ! I enjoy them very very much !!
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zerg and protoss trade hydras for dragoons
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Russian Federation42 Posts
queen broodling 125 energy to deal with late game tank turtle camping
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I use ghosts on regular basis in every terran matchup. The only thing they are missing is lockdown working also on biological units, so that they could be used to deal with mass ultras when playing SK Terran. But still their range is useful when pushing against lurkers. Would be nice if nuke worked on burrowed units just like on unburrowed, so that you can destroy wide spreaded lurkers under swarm. but this is related to nuke and splash damage mechanics.
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On October 10 2018 19:14 Rovant1c wrote: I don‘t think it's useful for pvz(hydralisk rush),maybe reduce the photon cannon build time 1~2 seconds better? that would break everything, like cannon rush vs. 12 hatch for example
or 12 nex vs. overpool
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On October 11 2018 06:09 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2018 19:14 Rovant1c wrote: I don‘t think it's useful for pvz(hydralisk rush),maybe reduce the photon cannon build time 1~2 seconds better? that would break everything, like cannon rush vs. 12 hatch for example or 12 nex vs. overpool
maybe 12 nex should be viable against overpool? and why would 1-2 seconds make cannon rushes that much more viable? generally when a cannon rush works it is not because the cannons finished 1 or 2 seconds too quickly; it is because drone maneuvers were poor or cannon placement allowed for it and were not accounted for by zerg no?
edit: to my first point, that 12 nex should be viable against overpool, is what needs to be addressed about pvz-- it is too easy for zerg to be greedy and keep protoss in the dark meanwhile protoss has to either play perfectly on even terms or play way too safe and fall behind no matter what. this is what the discussion is
edit2: when is the last time you saw a good zerg lose to a cannon rush even on good cannon rush maps? link??
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I think the only real common sense change, something no one can disagree with, is to give scouts their (+2) upgrades and Devourers their (+3) upgrades because they're pretty far left of the dps scaling curve for no discernable reason (these fixes would still put them behind the carrier, corsair, and valkyrie, among others, in upgrade efficacy)
the rest of the units are just designed for slower game speeds and lower unit counts and would need radical redesigning to make work. if restoration autocasted like heal does, if devourers could attack both ground and air, if nukes had a reasonable supply requirement, if ensnare was a reasonably easy transition out of spire ZvZ, etc. I would start smalller and then start asking questions about those units if they still sucked in the new meta.
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On October 11 2018 09:33 Mirabel_ wrote: I think the only real common sense change, something no one can disagree with, is to give scouts their (+2) upgrades and Devourers their (+3) upgrades because they're pretty far left of the dps scaling curve for no discernable reason (these fixes would still put them behind the carrier, corsair, and valkyrie, among others, in upgrade efficacy)
the rest of the units are just designed for slower game speeds and lower unit counts and would need radical redesigning to make work. if restoration autocasted like heal does, if devourers could attack both ground and air, if nukes had a reasonable supply requirement, if ensnare was a reasonably easy transition out of spire ZvZ, etc. I would start smalller and then start asking questions about those units if they still sucked in the new meta.
What do you mean by that? As in +3 or +2 attack and armor right out of the gate? That’s be very imba I think. I think vulture needs a buff of some kind, maybe just 5hp, or 4 mines instead of 3. Ghost could be all out replaced as a unit, if nukes can’t be 4 supply instead of 8 no point in really having them. Maybe a “seal team” type of trooper unit, drops nukes and made from barracks like other infantry. Ghost had its own game in sc ghost and if they weren’t gonna develop that into a full fledged game at least pay attention to the ghosts shortcomings of sc1. I liked the ghost “Snipe” ability of sc2, so for more of a anti bio style perhaps make a “poison” shot type of ability that can freeze a unit like an ultralisk, let’s say, that gives Terran fits, and insta-posions it so it dies in a short lifespan time. ~ 150 energy.
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I would simply make hydra movement speed and atk range upgrades much longer or more expensive one or the other so that in PvZ hydra busts are less strong and more all in than they have been. By doing this it doesn't affect the other 2 match up balance. Because no one builds hydras in ZvZ and ZvT hydras aren't really used except against mech builds.
It seems like zergs can still get away with these aggressive builds by forcing protoss to get cannons and block/suicide probes to survive that it just evens out. If an aggressive strategy loses it should be punished if defended successfully but that window is so thin, this concept of high risk and high reward has always been the case in broodwar in every match up and game except in PvZ where zerg can do something high reward hydra bust and win but don't outright lose serious advantage if it doesn't pan out.
And the ZvT match up I'd simply make queens start with more energy and perhaps cheaper for some queen strategy against bio. It may make sense for zergs to make queen muta to snipe bio armies traveling across the map.
I think if you change the unused units too drastically to the point where they are actually used it may shift the meta and create potential balance problems, which will create another issue where other units have to be changed to compensate. So I'm down for changing the unused units if that means we get patches periodically to change the meta every so often.
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