[G] Terran vs Terran
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
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Highgamer
1346 Posts
Very nice introduction to some basic TvT-build orders and game-plans. Even though I knew most of this already, it's nice to read some of the parts that I had only a vague concept off written down in orderly fashion. TvT needs more love. It's a technical, complicated matchup and it's a lot of work playing it, but awesome once you start to understand how it unfolds. | ||
chaosTheory_14cc
Canada1270 Posts
As an aside, doesn't anyone use the term endgame anymore? I feel like it sounds better to catergorize the game into 4 stages (early, mid, late, end) or still 3 stages (considering lategame as more of a "later midgame") than it is to come with all these different lategame terms (late-lategame, super-lategame, true-lategame, etc. I've seen so many). | ||
Jealous
9972 Posts
On December 03 2018 01:00 chaosTheory_14cc wrote: I agree, TvT is amazing and easily has the most complex and interesting positional play. Though that's also probably why it's harder to appreciate over the other match ups , especially those more visceral and tactical in nature. Great guide. As an aside, doesn't anyone use the term endgame anymore? I feel like it sounds better to catergorize the game into 4 stages (early, mid, late, end) or still 3 stages (considering lategame as more of a "later midgame") than it is to come with all these different lategame terms (late-lategame, super-lategame, true-lategame, etc. I've seen so many). I think "endgame" has a different connotation in common parlance than just the last stage of a game. | ||
ScottFiore
6 Posts
Hey all, here's a framework for pretty standard TvT off of factory expand. I wrote this for CPL but thought it might come in handy for other players. Vulture Expand 9 depot 12 rax 12 gas (scout at 13 or 14) 16 depot 16 fac (2 off gas) 20 cc (2 on gas) 20 vult 23 depot shop fac (~26) - Turrets are very important at this stage of the game. Mash them out (0 supply 75 mineral goliaths...) - Focus on the 50%+ map split. Every tank push should be deliberately cutting off specific bases, or freeing up space for your own bases. Don't try to break unbreakable tank lines - Use your scans to determine weaknesses in your opponent's tank lines. 5+ bases is basically maphack - Move toward 3-3-3-3. Vessels are good in general for d-matrix and detection. Late-Late game (30~35+ minutes): - As map begins to mine out (maybe 1~3 bases left), transition to BC (should be 3-3-3-3 or close to it at this point). Slowly yamato down whatever you can. Don't waste minerals Other good resources: https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/513064-tvt-axiom-build-order https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/459245-tvt-list-of-vods-sorted-by-opening-build Most of this already,is nice to read, I had only a vague concept off written down in orderly fashion. TvT needs more love. It's a technical, complicated matchup and it's a lot of work playing it, but awesome once you start to understand how it unfolds. | ||
fazek42
Hungary438 Posts
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Shady Sands
United States4021 Posts
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rand0MPrecisi0n
313 Posts
In conclusion, I'd advise in favor of watching pro-replays, and trying to understand why things go a certain way, instead of following advice blindly. I may also have said wrong things so a better Terran can come in and point it out if they feel like it. | ||
Dead9
United States4725 Posts
i should probably try to be more explicit on the order of everything but it's more of a rough guideline. i didn't want to write a whole essay about tvt 1. +1 isn't recommended early in either case. it comes after 5 facs in both followups. the little ticks are just roughly in order, it's not 'get all these upgrades and then go into 5 fact' it's 'get all these upgrades in this order as you go up to 5fact' and yes flash says to start +1 as 3rd starts in his newbie tvt guide. this is slightly earlier but not by that much (+1 starts around when all 5 facs finish, 3rd starts less than a minute later in most cases) i personally like the slightly earlier +1 (and it's not uncommon on pro vods) but timing it as the 3rd starts might be a better rule of thumb 2. the mines timing is definitely correct. you will already be building vults by the time mines start. in fact at this point 3rd 4th 5th facs should be going up or about to go up 3. extra machine shops is definitely correct as well, you should trying to transition to 100% tank/wraith. the '/gol' was supposed to mean 'slow down/stop vult production' rather than 'mass gols at this point of the game' 4. this is a simplification of lategame... obviously you want to yamato the most expensive units possible | ||
Dead9
United States4725 Posts
i'm working on updating liquipedia with with more information if you'd like to contribute (see link below), but it's probably not going to be done any time soon https://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/539661-liquipedia-strat-update | ||
rand0MPrecisi0n
313 Posts
'get all these upgrades in this order as you go up to 5fact' It doesn't work that way though. The upgrades cost the same gas that you need to make factories. You either do one first or the other. the mines timing is definitely correct. you will already be building vults by the time mines start. in fact at this point 3rd 4th 5th facs should be going up or about to go up If you start Siege together with Goliaths, as suggested, it will finish together with your second round of Goliaths. That means you'll have two factories, with one add-on. Mines take the same time as a Factory does, so if you start mines now, and another add-on, assuming you keep making Tanks you'll have zero Vultures when they finish. You'll also delay your extra Factories because of it. Don't believe me though, go in a game and test it if you want. If you start making Vultures instead, then I can see it, although I'm not sure how good it is to invest in Siege mode if you're only going to have two Tanks. I can see you have good intentions but the execution is lacking. I agree that there are few decent guides in english, keyword here being 'decent'. As far as liquipedia goes it's unlikely I'll contribute much, but here's something I noticed: Against more aggressive builds such as Fact Port or 2 Fact, 1 Fact FE needs to hold on long enough that their economic advantage kicks in. Often an early Armory is added to produce Goliaths, as they are reliable all-around units in small skirmishes. As far as I know, against 2 Fact you should add a Starport, get Siege and make continuous Tanks. Goliaths are weak at contain breaking, which is the most likely scenario you'll find yourself in. A Wraith, on the other hand, can deny the floating Rax, and force the opponent into making Turrets (delays his expo), or Goliaths (weakens his contain). Goliaths are not even able to deal with the Rax because, without range upgrade, they'll just get shot by the opponents Tanks instead. Here's Flash vs Sea for the ASL Season 2 Ro16, where Flash defends a Rax Double vs proxy 2 Fact. | ||
Dead9
United States4725 Posts
2. see 1. it's something like 2 gol > siege > 2 gol > +1-2 fac > mines (while pumping vults) > +2-1 fac > addon > ion, but i kind of just do whatever at that point 3. you have to get armory if you don't know their build because going fact cc port vs 2port or fact port is an immediate loss... there are a lot of different ways to break a contain, and the easiest is to mass up some goliaths, pull some SCVs, and mow it down. wraith is a fine answer too but it takes a lot more control than simply a moving goliath/scv edit: oh i wrote "As you get gas: " for gol/tank, that's not really accurate. i'll fix it later | ||
Dead9
United States4725 Posts
you have a bunker and way more minerals to work with relative to fac fe and nobody is going to go ebay vs 1 port wraith that is super game losing | ||
rand0MPrecisi0n
313 Posts
On December 10 2018 04:06 Dead9 wrote: 1. that's the order you get the upgrades in, not "get these ASAP". i probably should have been more explicit, i'll edit it later 2. see 1. it's something like 2 gol > siege > 2 gol > +1-2 fac > mines (while pumping vults) > +2-1 fac > addon > ion, but i kind of just do whatever at that point 3. you have to get armory if you don't know their build because going fact cc port vs 2port or fact port is an immediate loss... there are a lot of different ways to break a contain, and the easiest is to mass up some goliaths, pull some SCVs, and mow it down. wraith is a fine answer too but it takes a lot more control than simply a moving goliath/scv edit: oh i wrote "As you get gas: " for gol/tank, that's not really accurate. i'll fix it later I can see you just kinda do whatever by the lack of thoroughness in your guide. It's funny that someone that "just does whatever" that early into the game wants to write guides about how to play TvT from top to bottom. No wonder most resources in english are bad. Regardless, it seems like you have it figured out, so I'll just let you be. The reason I posted wasn't to help you but to warn people that this guide is wrong, so they should follow at their own risk. There's enough blind leading the blind in this forum as is. | ||
Dead9
United States4725 Posts
i wrote this for CPL as a general framework, i have more or this stuff but i haven't posted any of it because they're not actual guides. i only put this one up because we have zero modern resources for tvt | ||
Dead9
United States4725 Posts
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Highgamer
1346 Posts
But what you wrote is a good start for people who just want to read a short guide on TvT to get started, have some guidelines and orientation. They will play better with this advice than without it, probably well enough to get C or B rank with some dedicated practice. Not everyone wants to or has the time to sit down to study pro-replays to become a semi-progamer. We can have guides on TL that don't aim only at A/S-rank-players who still want to improve in very detailed aspects of the game. Guides with "perfect" information quickly become too complex to be practical for casual players or for committed, but not overly committed players. You don't have to feel guilty to look for rather general advice then. | ||
Falling
Canada10904 Posts
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