I mean we are the nerd squad. I always thought that if there's one group of males that would value personality, intelligence etc above physical beauty it would be the nerds.
Of course there are handsome male players and casters, but also a bit less and in the end, who cares how they look? Nobody. I don't care if you're fat, ugly, awkward, because fellow nerds don't judge nerds about that, these traits don't matter.
But why do the girls on stage all have to be cute? Why do I get mostly "hot female gamers, sexy female gamers" links when I do a google search for "female gamers" I have nothing against Seltzer, Smix, Anna etc. I really appreciate them for trying to make e-sports a less male only environment. And besides that they are good at what they do too.
But why do only girls like them succeed? With above average looks. Why do they always have to dress hot?
Kpop is even worse. Those girls are all selected purely for looks. All the same hight and sizes. It doesn't even matter if they can sing, they can just moderate their voices.
It's the kind of sexism that doesn't belong with us nerds I think. We were always ignored by the cheerleader type of alpha girl, but there were always other girls, maybe more shy, less popular, but for me, usually more interesting, because they were more like me. They exist for sure but where are they in this community? Is it because they avoid the spotlight themself? Or is it because when they try to, they only get judged by their looks instead of who they are. Or because they get judged by their environment when they find out she plays games?
I think by always having non-nerd girls on stage we don't give our fellow nerd girls a real chance. I'm pretty sure there are girls out there that don't have the pop star look but a lot of game knowledge. There are plenty of female gamer leagues, surely one of them has casting skills too. Why don't tournament organisers scout her instead of the beauty pageant? I'd love to hear an insightful female voice.
Scarlett is like the first girl who fits the profile a bit, even if she's cute, it seems she's a real fellow gamer nerd at heart. And it took her a while to make the step in the public, even with such great skills. I hope she'll be an example for many girls/women. The amount of fans she got in a few days gives me hope!
And to you gamer nerd girl anywhere around the world, I love you and hope to see more of you.
Well, I am a woman, so let me tell you about my personal experience (which may or may not be what other 'nerd girls' have experienced as well).
I will sum it up like this: As a woman in the gaming community (and elsewhere too, but by very nature of the internetz it's more blatant here) you get harassed for your sex. It doesn't really matter if you are deemed attractive or plain, you are screwed either way.
When people on the internetz find you attractive, it's usually not positive. I myself have had multiple experiences of sexual harassment and cyber-stalking that got really disturbing. By sexual harassment, I don't mean a comment here or there either-- I mean guys who sent me nasty pictures, made new accounts whenever I blocked them to continue sending sexually explicit and degrading messages to me, etc. Those people were an exception, not a rule of course, but it's pretty impactful.
So let's now consider the general rule of treatment-- people who don't stalk and harass you like that. A lot of times these people are pretty friendly, but in the end I often have negative experiences with these guys too. They are really excited to see a girl they find somewhat attractive sharing an important interest with them, and decide they like you. This leads to well-meaning but often unwelcome advances. This doesn't sound so bad, except that one of the main draws of gaming for many people is the friendships and social component. It is often difficult for women to get this experience when people are more interested in gf than friend.
When people don't find you attractive though, it's equally depressing. People are ruthless on the internet. It's to be expected, but it doesn't make it right. The more you put yourself out there as a woman, the more critical people get of you. Women who enter into the public eye of the gaming community get a lot of harsh criticism, just like most public figures, but most of it has to do with their appearance. It doesn't matter that it's the internet and you don't know these people-- it still does psychological harm.
Beyond those things, there are a variety of reasons it's not fun to be a woman in this male-dominated community. I may talk to and play games with someone for quite a while before they find out I'm a woman. My experience has been that sometimes people who treated me well before immediately turn around and start treating me like shit as soon as they find out.
Lastly, the worst kind of treatment (and most common) I get from members of the community is people who don't believe me or other women when we talk about our negative experiences. I am often told by friends of mine as well as reading it over and over in discussions that the problem isn't real. This attitude is what allows the problem to continue. No one speaks out (often not even the women being harassed) to say that you shouldn't treat people like that.
I think there are more female gamers in the community than we see. I think a lot of them keep it mostly to themselves because of bad experiences or even just the general vibe of the community being hostile. A lot of time women who 'out' themselves are considered to be attention-whores (and tbh plenty of them are-- you know, the ones who are drop the words 'REAL LIVE FEMALE GAMER WITH TITS' every other line). In not wanting to be associated with that, maybe we make ourselves too invisible?
Anyway, I'm a 'nerd girl'. I'm not ugly, and I'm not Anna <3. Hi; nice to meet you sir!
So let's now consider the general rule of treatment-- people who don't stalk and harass you like that. A lot of times these people are pretty friendly, but in the end I often have negative experiences with these guys too. They are really excited to see a girl they find somewhat attractive sharing an important interest with them, and decide they like you. This leads to well-meaning but often unwelcome advances. This doesn't sound so bad, except that one of the main draws of gaming for many people is the friendships and social component. It is often difficult for women to get this experience when people are more interested in gf than friend.
Now I feel stupid for replying to your blog stating I could play and help you out with your practice T_T.... ; Anyways what you state is really.... wow. I know some parts of the community tend to be douches towards women, but seriously its hard to believe what you explain..
well actually its not, but you get what I mean. I know quiet a few woman who play Starcraft, from Silver to Masters, from Zerg to Terran and all of them are fun to play / talk with, but thats partly because you can also have a good conversation with a nerd girl. Its not like their whole life is centered around gaming. Obviously there are also friends (nerds) who I can talk with, but some guys really can only talk about games... and since gaming is only part of my life, I don't enjoy that as much.
RedJustice I hope insecure kids don't make you too much harm. It's not manly for Christ sake. Be assured treatment you wrote about is not tolerated on TL and dealt with severly by moderation
Don't feel stupid, I appreciated you wanting to help! I was going to PM everyone who answered that blog when I get out of class for the year (8 more days to go woot!) and ask about their availability. I wasn't avoiding talking to you or anything lol, I have school! If you were planning on hitting on me though, I'll just tell you no now, and we can skip to being friends. :D
Anway, that I guess reminds me I didn't emphasize enough-- I have had PLENTY of good experiences as well, and have some good guy friends I have met gaming. I am certainly frustrated by my bad experiences, but I am still here because of the good ones. It is just that the volume of bad experiences from myself and other women has been far too high for me to write it off as bad luck or coincidence. (So I feel the need to just make people aware when topics like this come up.)
EDIT:
beetlelisk: Thanks man. ^^ TL has definitely been one of the things that encouraged me to stick around. I have made some good friends here.
IOvEggY: Are you asking if I am crazy or Zandar? XD
Haha both! No but you I have found that gamer girls have some sort of bad experiences in the past that make them a little more "hard to handle" and thats why they play games(ive asked the girls before thats what they told me) or maybe its just the girls Ive picked out but 3 in a row pretty good odds.
Btw, even with me being male, I kind of have personal experience with the whole thing. My mother is best healer in a raid guild in a certain mmo. But nobody knows. She fears when they know her age or gender she'll be casted out. Skill wise she's always chosen first. Also nobody in her real life environment besides my father, brother and me really knows, she thinks she'll gets judged negatively when people find out and prefers not to speak about it. And yes, I do know plenty of gamer girls. And dated one too, which ended when we both moved to another game lol. And none of them are ugly or look like Anna Just normal girls and women really. Most of them playing mmo's though, don't know any personally playing sc2.
Btw:
If you were planning on hitting on me though, I'll just tell you no now, and we can skip to being friends. :D
Nah don't be afraid for that lol. That's totally not the reason I made this blog.
RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
No, but seriously (correct me if I'm wrong), I think by crazy you are referring to the behavior that often gets mentioned in TL girl blogs: a woman who can't be honest about what they want, is very dramatic, and needs/wants high emotional maintenance. In that respect, I would say definitely NOT; I often receive comments from people about how 'guy-like' I come across in my conversations. My personality is bluntly honest. Very bluntly honest. I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D
EDIT: Oh sorry Zandar, I meant that bit to Type|NarutO, not you. <3
Haemonculus: Your post actually means a lot to me. Thanks for telling your own experience, which is so similar to mine! ^^
On April 09 2012 21:50 RedJustice wrote: Ah well, I do wear flipflops in the snow...
No, but seriously (correct me if I'm wrong), I think by crazy you are referring to the behavior that often gets mentioned in TL girl blogs: a woman who can't be honest about what they want, is very dramatic, and needs/wants high emotional maintenance. In that respect, I would say definitely NOT; I often receive comments from people about how 'guy-like' I come across in my conversations. My personality is bluntly honest. Very bluntly honest. I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D
EDIT: Oh sorry Zandar, I meant that bit to Type|NarutO, not you. <3
Haemonculus: Your most actually means a lot to me. Thanks for telling your own experience, which is so similar to mine! ^^
I've read several of your blogs and I was aware that you're a girl, but I don't think that really mattered when it came down to the reception of the blog or the contents within it. Uh, what I mean is, I think in here TL many of us are mature enough to respect each other as 'gamers', not 'gamer boys / gamer girls'.
I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D
No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online.
If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around.
Today most things are getting so superficial that this kind of bullshit is starting to plague even "science". No kidding, female researchers are not what they used to be, getting more and more like Kpop dolls. And one would think at least in these areas people to not be as shallow.
By the way, Kpop is awesome, imo, but mostly because it brings many retro melodic traits that in the west have remained only in past tense, and there they are alive and sincere.
I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D
No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online.
If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around.
The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist.
It's just the "sex sells" thing really. It's the same reason that 95% of on-stage female personalities are attractive. Weathergirls, Newswomen, pundits, etc. There are notable exceptions. Hannah Storm stayed on long after her looks have faded, Oprah isn't much to look at. Barbara Walters is around. They've got to be so much better than their peers though, They're opposite people like Tyra Banks and Elizabeth Hasslebeck.
I have two "serious" gamer friends that are girls. Both are fairly attractive and extremely open about their games. I think they are around, but stick in their cliques
Could we please stop describing women who are in the spotlight as 'attention-whore' ? To find women saying that is even more depressing, I wonder how you (as in women in our community) expect the community to change if you aren't spear-leading the aforementioned changes.
Here are some free insights :
* Some people are drawn to be public figures, no matter their sex, gender and so on. Those often ends up being placed in social related position like casters, journalists, interviewers. I've rarely heard a man being accused of seeking attention even when an argument could be made he is. * Some people likes to look good, because they like fashion, being appreciated for their looks or simply for self-esteem and confidence. If you dislike that you are just jealous and envious.
Recently I've seen the pictures of Lani and lilsusie in the swimming pool/bubble bath. The picture was nothing out of the ordinary, just your everysummer pics of women in swimsuit. Both of them are quite attractive to say the least but them posting a picture of relaxing in a hotel is not a sign they want to show their figures and be praised.
PS : Tolerance is not a virtue, it's a perpetual fight against one's own misconceptions.
On April 09 2012 22:16 Otolia wrote: Could we please stop describing women who are in the spotlight as 'attention-whore' ? To find women saying that is even more depressing, I wonder how you (as in women in our community) expect the community to change if you aren't spear-leading the aforementioned changes.
Here are some free insights :
* Some people are drawn to be public figures, no matter their sex, gender and so on. Those often ends up being placed in social related position like casters, journalists, interviewers. I've rarely heard a man being accused of seeking attention even when an argument could be made he is. * Some people likes to look good, because they like fashion, being appreciated for their looks or simply for self-esteem and confidence. If you dislike that you are just jealous and envious.
Recently I've seen the pictures of Lani and lilsusie in the swimming pool/bubble bath. The picture was nothing out of the ordinary, just your everysummer pics of women in swimsuit. Both of them are quite attractive to say the least but them posting a picture of relaxing in a hotel is not a sign they want to show their figures and be praised.
PS : Tolerance is not a virtue, it's a perpetual fight against one's own misconceptions.
Ah sorry I didn't mean women in the spotlight with that. I meant the typical girl/woman who enters a guild and says every minute that's she's female and craves the attention to bizarre proportions. Actually it's not really that much gender related for me. I know some males as well who fit the description.
I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D
No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online.
If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around.
The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist.
On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote: RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called?
In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own.
Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun.
I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class.
I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D
No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online.
If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around.
The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist.
I want to 2nd this one as well.
Well I'm not one of those fucks. Remember KellyMilkies casting GSL issue? Look a this PM of mine to her: To: kellymilkies [ Profile | Buddy | Report ] Subject: I like your casting Date: 2/23/11 23:17 Don't let the insecure mysogynic tools to get to you. Stay strong and keep on going!
When something similar like that issue happens again, I will post similar PM to person in need
I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D
No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online.
If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around.
The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist.
I want to 2nd this one as well.
What would you change, if you could make suggestions? Without a doubt , at least to me, it will always be that women will be treated badly by the majority. A woman no matter how well she playes or what she does... will probably be not equal to a man for the majority.
This is very sad, but I feel the female part of the community can't do anything to win them round. The majority will alway be stupid and sexist... and the minority that does appreciate what women in the community do will always be treated sceptical due to the experience women make...
On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote: RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called?
In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own.
Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun.
I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class.
Nice to meet you.
Are you saying they should endure their mistreatment in silence? Fuck no dude.
I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D
No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online.
If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around.
The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist.
I want to 2nd this one as well.
What would you change, if you could make suggestions? Without a doubt , at least to me, it will always be that women will be treated badly by the majority. A woman no matter how well she playes or what she does... will probably be not equal to a man for the majority.
This is very sad, but I feel the female part of the community can't do anything to win them round. The majority will alway be stupid and sexist... and the minority that does appreciate what women in the community do will always be treated sceptical due to the experience women make...
Quiet sad;;
I think that those 65 pages of posts in Scarlett's fan club thread say a different story
On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote: RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called?
In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own.
Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun.
I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class.
Nice to meet you.
Are you saying they should endure their mistreatment in silene? Fuck no dude.
On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote: RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called?
In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own.
Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun.
I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class.
Nice to meet you.
Are you saying they should endure their mistreatment in silence? Fuck no dude.
I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D
No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online.
If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around.
The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist.
I want to 2nd this one as well.
What would you change, if you could make suggestions? Without a doubt , at least to me, it will always be that women will be treated badly by the majority. A woman no matter how well she playes or what she does... will probably be not equal to a man for the majority.
This is very sad, but I feel the female part of the community can't do anything to win them round. The majority will alway be stupid and sexist... and the minority that does appreciate what women in the community do will always be treated sceptical due to the experience women make...
Quiet sad;;
I think that those 65 pages of posts in Scarlett's fan club thread say a different story
Its a start, but 780 people the majority? Sadly not. The live report thread was a total mess with her being a MtF transgender. Lots of people don't even referred to HER as female. If I would have to spell one out, it would be VPCursed and I don't even want to post what he wrote to me via PM.
On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote: RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called?
In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own.
Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun.
I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class.
Nice to meet you.
Are you saying they should endure their mistreatment in silence? Fuck no dude.
On April 09 2012 22:41 Type|NarutO wrote:
On April 09 2012 22:29 Haemonculus wrote:
On April 09 2012 22:06 RedJustice wrote:
On April 09 2012 21:58 Zandar wrote:
I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D
No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online.
If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around.
The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist.
I want to 2nd this one as well.
What would you change, if you could make suggestions? Without a doubt , at least to me, it will always be that women will be treated badly by the majority. A woman no matter how well she playes or what she does... will probably be not equal to a man for the majority.
This is very sad, but I feel the female part of the community can't do anything to win them round. The majority will alway be stupid and sexist... and the minority that does appreciate what women in the community do will always be treated sceptical due to the experience women make...
Quiet sad;;
I think that those 65 pages of posts in Scarlett's fan club thread say a different story
Its a start, but 780 people the majority? Sadly not. The live report thread was a total mess with her being a MtF transgender. Lots of people don't even referred to HER as female. If I would have to spell one out, it would be VPCursed and I don't even want to post what he wrote to me via PM.
What can I say, mod actions speak for themselves. those people simply don't belong in the community.
On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote: RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called?
In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own.
Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun.
I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class.
Nice to meet you.
Are you saying they should endure their mistreatment in silence? Fuck no dude.
On April 09 2012 22:41 Type|NarutO wrote:
On April 09 2012 22:29 Haemonculus wrote:
On April 09 2012 22:06 RedJustice wrote:
On April 09 2012 21:58 Zandar wrote:
I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D
No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online.
If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around.
The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist.
I want to 2nd this one as well.
What would you change, if you could make suggestions? Without a doubt , at least to me, it will always be that women will be treated badly by the majority. A woman no matter how well she playes or what she does... will probably be not equal to a man for the majority.
This is very sad, but I feel the female part of the community can't do anything to win them round. The majority will alway be stupid and sexist... and the minority that does appreciate what women in the community do will always be treated sceptical due to the experience women make...
Quiet sad;;
I think that those 65 pages of posts in Scarlett's fan club thread say a different story
Its a start, but 780 people the majority? Sadly not. The live report thread was a total mess with her being a MtF transgender. Lots of people don't even referred to HER as female. If I would have to spell one out, it would be VPCursed and I don't even want to post what he wrote to me via PM.
A big problem is that "female" is a sex-linked term while "her" is gender linked. It's not quite clear, even to myself, a person who is studying to be a genetic biologist, if I am supposed to refer to a genetic male as a female for the sake of being polite. "female", as far as humans are concerned, denotes a person with XX for their 23rd chromosome pair. While "her" "she" "woman" etc denotes anyone who identifies with the gender typically assigned to females at birth.
Don't get me wrong, I'll call her what she wants to be called out of a decent respect for her, as I have for all peoples. But it's not without its complications.
On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote: RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called?
In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own.
Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun.
I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class.
Nice to meet you.
Are you saying they should endure their mistreatment in silence? Fuck no dude.
On April 09 2012 22:41 Type|NarutO wrote:
On April 09 2012 22:29 Haemonculus wrote:
On April 09 2012 22:06 RedJustice wrote:
On April 09 2012 21:58 Zandar wrote:
I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D
No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online.
If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around.
The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist.
I want to 2nd this one as well.
What would you change, if you could make suggestions? Without a doubt , at least to me, it will always be that women will be treated badly by the majority. A woman no matter how well she playes or what she does... will probably be not equal to a man for the majority.
This is very sad, but I feel the female part of the community can't do anything to win them round. The majority will alway be stupid and sexist... and the minority that does appreciate what women in the community do will always be treated sceptical due to the experience women make...
Quiet sad;;
I think that those 65 pages of posts in Scarlett's fan club thread say a different story
Its a start, but 780 people the majority? Sadly not. The live report thread was a total mess with her being a MtF transgender. Lots of people don't even referred to HER as female. If I would have to spell one out, it would be VPCursed and I don't even want to post what he wrote to me via PM.
A big problem is that "female" is a sex-linked term while "her" is gender linked. It's not quite clear, even to myself, a person who is studying to be a genetic biologist, if I am supposed to refer to a genetic male as a female for the sake of being polite. "female", as far as humans are concerned, denotes a person with XX for their 23rd chromosome pair. While "her" "she" "woman" etc denotes anyone who identifies with the gender typically assigned to females at birth.
Don't get me wrong, I'll call her what she wants to be called out of a decent respect for her, as I have for all peoples. But it's not without its complications.
If you are studying to be a genetic biologist you should know that a transgender is actually not physically equal to a man (in case of MtF as we have now), at least according to wiki and other sources it doesn't.
On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote: RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called?
In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own.
Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun.
I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class.
Nice to meet you.
Are you saying they should endure their mistreatment in silence? Fuck no dude.
On April 09 2012 22:41 Type|NarutO wrote:
On April 09 2012 22:29 Haemonculus wrote:
On April 09 2012 22:06 RedJustice wrote:
On April 09 2012 21:58 Zandar wrote:
I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D
No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online.
If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around.
The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist.
I want to 2nd this one as well.
What would you change, if you could make suggestions? Without a doubt , at least to me, it will always be that women will be treated badly by the majority. A woman no matter how well she playes or what she does... will probably be not equal to a man for the majority.
This is very sad, but I feel the female part of the community can't do anything to win them round. The majority will alway be stupid and sexist... and the minority that does appreciate what women in the community do will always be treated sceptical due to the experience women make...
Quiet sad;;
I think that those 65 pages of posts in Scarlett's fan club thread say a different story
Its a start, but 780 people the majority? Sadly not. The live report thread was a total mess with her being a MtF transgender. Lots of people don't even referred to HER as female. If I would have to spell one out, it would be VPCursed and I don't even want to post what he wrote to me via PM.
A big problem is that "female" is a sex-linked term while "her" is gender linked. It's not quite clear, even to myself, a person who is studying to be a genetic biologist, if I am supposed to refer to a genetic male as a female for the sake of being polite. "female", as far as humans are concerned, denotes a person with XX for their 23rd chromosome pair. While "her" "she" "woman" etc denotes anyone who identifies with the gender typically assigned to females at birth.
Don't get me wrong, I'll call her what she wants to be called out of a decent respect for her, as I have for all peoples. But it's not without its complications.
If you are studying to be a genetic biologist you should know that a transgender is actually not physically equal to a man (in case of MtF as we have now), at least according to wiki and other sources it doesn't.
But they don't suddenly change sexes, genetically speaking. She is stuck with her Y chromosome for life. That Y chromosome denotes a genetic male. While physically and socially, she is a woman. That's what I mean.
And I am certainly not trying to disrespect her when I say that. I'm just trying to assert that Sex and Gender are two different things, which people on both sides of the argument need to understand.
On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote: RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called?
In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own.
Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun.
I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class.
Nice to meet you.
Are you saying they should endure their mistreatment in silence? Fuck no dude.
On April 09 2012 22:41 Type|NarutO wrote:
On April 09 2012 22:29 Haemonculus wrote:
On April 09 2012 22:06 RedJustice wrote:
On April 09 2012 21:58 Zandar wrote:
I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D
No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online.
If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around.
The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist.
I want to 2nd this one as well.
What would you change, if you could make suggestions? Without a doubt , at least to me, it will always be that women will be treated badly by the majority. A woman no matter how well she playes or what she does... will probably be not equal to a man for the majority.
This is very sad, but I feel the female part of the community can't do anything to win them round. The majority will alway be stupid and sexist... and the minority that does appreciate what women in the community do will always be treated sceptical due to the experience women make...
Quiet sad;;
I think that those 65 pages of posts in Scarlett's fan club thread say a different story
Its a start, but 780 people the majority? Sadly not. The live report thread was a total mess with her being a MtF transgender. Lots of people don't even referred to HER as female. If I would have to spell one out, it would be VPCursed and I don't even want to post what he wrote to me via PM.
A big problem is that "female" is a sex-linked term while "her" is gender linked. It's not quite clear, even to myself, a person who is studying to be a genetic biologist, if I am supposed to refer to a genetic male as a female for the sake of being polite. "female", as far as humans are concerned, denotes a person with XX for their 23rd chromosome pair. While "her" "she" "woman" etc denotes anyone who identifies with the gender typically assigned to females at birth.
Don't get me wrong, I'll call her what she wants to be called out of a decent respect for her, as I have for all peoples. But it's not without its complications.
If you are studying to be a genetic biologist you should know that a transgender is actually not physically equal to a man (in case of MtF as we have now), at least according to wiki and other sources it doesn't.
But they don't suddenly change sexes, genetically speaking. She is stuck with her Y chromosome for life. That Y chromosome denotes a genetic male. While physically and socially, she is female. That's what I mean.
Are the chromosomes everything that is taking into consideration for gender? If their brain structure is actually 90% female, for a biologist its still a completely male person? I don't know, I see what you are talking about... but yeah =.= I think its more of a social thing anyways.
I think this blog more refers to the large female discrepancy between BW fangirls numbers and SC2's fangirls numbers. The majority of people in the crowds at proleague and OSL you could argue are girls/women. Part of that reason is, however, the cuteness factor of certain players, so that kind of cheapens those leagues. But, it's still more girls that understand the game, so that's good.
In "western" cultures it's still a stigma to watch/play video games (as Red Justice) so I think that's the main reason for the lack of girls. Being cute or not shouldn't stop anyone from playing. That's just an excuse, even though I understand the harassment Red Justice is talking about can hurt.
As far as Anna and other presenters go, don't you think the guys were dressed hot as well (im asking the girls)? I think it's a reverse stereotype "girl supporters" place on girls to say they can't dress well at an event just because our culture associates women presenters with sexuality. It's a vegas show. Everyone should try and look flashy and sexy.
I tend to think that sexism is kind of a shitty thing in general and try not to participate in it at all, but there is something I have to say that not everybody will be happy with.
Stereotypes exist for a reason. They are ignorant, offensive, and very often false, but they exist and were invented because people see relations in them. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that there is any scientific evidence to suggest black people are genetically predisposed to like fried chicken, but I will say that some (read: not all) girl gamers who've taken the spotlight have acted in a way that create these stereotypes.
It's a male-dominated vocal community (which is to say, more gamer girls exist than forums/etc would suggest.) When companies like Ubisoft hire the Frag Dolls to be their gamer marketing team, they reinforce the stereotype by using sex to get attention. Jessica Chobot gained her initial fame by licking a playstation controller (as opposed to her job, which she legitimately worked hard to gain.) G4 hosts are worshipped for posing in Maxim/Playboy. The PMS Clan, for years, sponsored casual players to travel to tournaments (CPL, old school MLG etc. I'm not talking about Flo) where they often secured last place, and then went on to do interviews about how cool they are for being girl gamers, in a clan that literally has a "no boys allowed" sticker on it. At one point, their brother clan, H2O, were also referred to as "Water boys" and PMS meant "Psychotic Man Slayers," (now "Pandoras Mighty Soldiers") which, needless to say, was equally sexist on their part.
It's unfortunate that sexism exists, but it doesn't only exist because guys are jerks. It also exists because certain individuals in the industry made it so. No, lulsusie wearing a bathing suit in a hot tub isn't the definition of "attention whore," I agree. However, in more extreme examples, there's certainly some connection.
I'm not justifying sexism by saying this, merely stating why it exists. I'm a guy and I think it's pretty disgraceful the way things are. In my years on the internet, I've made plenty of female friends whom don't fit the stereotypes whatsoever. It's unfortunate that they're subject to sexism despite that, and I wish there was something to do about it. However, I think those girls who are in the spotlight need to set a better example just as much as guys have to stop being assholes before anything can change.
People like Anna, Seltzer and Lilsusie are good examples of females in the spotlight who I think are helping combat sexism, by doing what they do without labeling themselves as a gender. Unfortunately, this problem has existed long before they came along, and it's going to be a bit uphill struggle for anything to change.
As for why they dress pretty on stage, while I doubt IPL is picking their dresses, I imagine they did have some kind of dress code. Smix rolled in to MLG with jeans and T-Shirt, after all, unlike IPL. I wouldn't necessarily blame the girls on that, and even if they did choose to dress up, that's their own call.
On April 09 2012 23:12 slytown wrote: I think this blog more refers to the large female discrepancy between BW fangirls numbers and SC2's fangirls numbers. The majority of people in the crowds at proleague and OSL you could argue are girls/women. Part of that reason is, however, the cuteness factor of certain players, so that kind of cheapens those leagues. But, it's still more girls that understand the game, so that's good.
In "western" cultures it's still a stigma to watch/play video games (as Red Justice) so I think that's the main reason for the lack of girls. Being cute or not shouldn't stop anyone from playing. That's just an excuse, even though I understand the harassment Red Justice is talking about can hurt.
As far as Anna and other presenters go, don't you think the guys were dressed hot as well (im asking the girls)? I think it's a reverse stereotype "girl supporters" place on girls to say they can't dress well at an event just because our culture associates women presenters with sexuality. It's a vegas show. Everyone should try and look flashy and sexy.
Dressing well and having to deal with people shouting "would bang, what a hot bitch!" is completely different from someone complimenting the looks of a woman. I for my part have stated at another event that Anna was looking gorgeous in her dress etc, but the majority of the people still take screenshots of girls in the audience wearing hot pants writing "I'd hit it" ...
I do like women just as much, but thats no reason to treat them like objects. Wow this sounds so... stupid, but thats just my opinion. -_-.
Okay this is one of those times where a response overshadows the blog. (sorry Zandar!)
It's an interesting topic, and something that I feel really does need to be addressed in the gaming community. Though I guess I never really thought about how many women might be out there and just not willing to reveal their gender.
On April 09 2012 21:20 RedJustice wrote: So let's now consider the general rule of treatment-- people who don't stalk and harass you like that. A lot of times these people are pretty friendly, but in the end I often have negative experiences with these guys too. They are really excited to see a girl they find somewhat attractive sharing an important interest with them, and decide they like you. This leads to well-meaning but often unwelcome advances. This doesn't sound so bad, except that one of the main draws of gaming for many people is the friendships and social component. It is often difficult for women to get this experience when people are more interested in gf than friend.
I think there's two issues here. First, it's rare for a nerds like us (the men) to find a partner in this world who share our general interests and hobbies. As it stands general culture is not too accepting of nerd culture, and most women would be turned away if they knew I could speak elvish and Klingon and spent hours watching Sci Fi and anime. It's rather annoying to have to hide who you are when socializing because knowing how to operate a class 9 warp drive with tricyclic input is considered weird. Sometimes it can actually be quite difficult.
It's no different than what anyone else wants in this world, to be accepted for who you are. But I think having such niech interests that are frowned upon by mainstream culture makes this incredibly difficult. So when nerd men meet someone who shares their interests and see the world as they do it's like finding the holy grail. (except without the eternal life thing)
The thing is, creepy behavior is not confined just to the nerd world. I've seen plenty of men irl act creepy and do some really inappropriate things. This comes from the fact that men are idiots, and lonely men are even bigger idiots when it comes to women. For some reason certain men think that if they throw themselves at women it will somehow cause them to fall for them, despite quite the opposite being true. And many women, likely feeling sorry for the guy, avoid giving them a straight "no" answer that would often times avert the situation. Unfortunatly, the internet just makes it all that much worse. It's by no means any excuse for that type of behavior, it's totally inappropriate but it does help explain it.
On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote: Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
This type of shit is rediculous. Granted some of it comes from immature 14 and 15 year olds, who have some excuse because everyone is an idiot at that age, but some of it comes from older individuals who have absolutely no excuse. Especially the "get back to the kitchen" stuff, it's not funny and never will be. The women of the internet should all band together and make these clowns feel horrible and inadequate, that would stop the internet sexism I think...
On April 09 2012 21:38 IOvEggY wrote: Ive actually dated 3 in a row and they looked like Anna in terms of prettyness Theyre more out there than you think.
Beware:they are usually more crazy than usual. Are you?(working on a theory)
In my experience I have to admit this is true. The two "gamer" girls I've known had some serious issues. Majorly self destructive and constantly doing crap to get attention. Hopefully that's not the case with all nerd girls.
In nanashin's chat on his stream for Proleague we type "qt" when we see a camera on a cute girl in the crowd or (and I do this a lot) type "kim ga eul so beautiful!" when she's on camera. If this was the only thing I did, I would be cheapening the league I think, but I talk mostly about the games so it's fine.
I don't look for a sexy body in a gamer girl (commentator, player, buddy, whatever). But I don't see at all how that relates to kpop... That's taking it way too far for my taste, considering most of the kpop scene, unlike the gaming one, is built around selling sex together with mediocre music. Since so many people like the end product, who are you to call it bad?
I wouldn't be surprised if gamers are the most sexist subculture in existence.
It varies between the social inept that stalk any girl that says so much as a greeting in guild chat to the white knights which call all women whores who even look at make-up.
I'd like to think TL has made great strides to reduce the level of sexism within the boards, at least compared to other gaming communities and where we were several years ago, but reading the posts of RedJustice, Haemonculus and others, I guess we still have a long way to go, especially with regards to the subversive stuff.
The idea of the attention whore as a major negative is silly to begin with. It surely exists, for both men and women, but that doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing. I view it as the entire reason for the Blog section.
With regards to calling people beautiful/cute/etc. I think there's a somewhat fine line between complimenting someone's looks respectfully and creepily, and given the lack of nuance in internet text, it's sometimes impossible to read the difference.
I've now 20 year old male, I started playing PC games around the time I was 8. I started getting into clans around 12. Since then, I've been in a countless number of them. Some, with horrible communities of sexist, annoying, pricks. Others, had nice communities of helping hands.
Being a male, I haven't experienced the sexism first hand to the same extent as the women I've played with over the years. (However,some socially awkward girl gamers are just as filthy, dirty, and disgusting as their counterparts.) Some girls, ENABLE. They're horrible. They giggle when a off-handed comment comes their way. They need to say "No" and be more direct.
These are males that are probably 14-19 years old, full of hormones and socially inexperienced.This is a ticking time bomb and I'm sorry that the females are the trigger that sets them off.
You can set them straight most the time. Be confident, know what you want, and say it. You're looking to game, have fun, and be in a supportive community. Not to be gawked at, teased, flirted with, and abused. If that doesn't happen, leave the community. Find another one.
DON'T innocently flirt. These are deprived males. Any signal, any slight glimpse, flicker, or tell that you may have an "interest" in the guy on more than a platonic level. Don't do it. Make sure the guy is stable enough to understand it's just an innocent joke.
Be a bit more blunt for a while. Take up a Head-Bitch mentality for a while and lighten up over time. Opening to the ones with sense. Keep hold of the people with sense.
Basically, don't join clans or communities with the intention of staying, give it a couple of weeks as a trial and see how evolved the community is.
What the girl looks like, how she dresses, the attention she wants, is all irrelevant. Their is nothing wrong with being an attention-whore if you want to be one. Not my style, i'd probably just ignore you.
These guys. don't have enough experience with the opposite gender to know what they LIKE, and what the DON'T LIKE, so they see BOOBS and get all excited because you having boobs means they must like you. Show off a bit of that horrible, vain, personality, be a head-bitch and make them learn their lesson instead.
The biggest tool you have available is that their is a countless number of gaming communities. You don't like one, hop to another. Let them learn, or not. They'll just be stuck in a sausage fest of a Ventrilo.
Final note: Keep tabs with cool people who you know just want platonic, chill times. Cut ties off with the other ones ASAP before they get any ideas. Oh, and if you're feeling evil and play item-based games just manipulate the shit out of the guys until they learn that some girls are bitches too. =P
TL;DR: Just like Real-Life you get a few close-knit friends you trust and say FU to everyone else. Don't settle for pervs, let them learn. Get good with the mute button. BE UPFRONT. You're here to play GAMES, not with their tiny dicks.
And then you could also go on about the enabling girls. They flirt, send pictures, and generally act like the girl who drank 3 too many, took a couple of triple-stacked MDMAs and do anything you tell them to. Socially awkward nerd girls are part of the problem. If the only girl a guy talks to regularly is some socially inexperienced, needy, low confidence trick , that does these things, it's going to give him unrealistic expectations of all women. You sane women have to deal with breaking down these conceptions the socially awkward side of your gender has also helped forge.
I actually pointed it out on Twitter, that only women, who are 'hot' and dress 'hot' get to be seen on stage (and got some nice shitstorm going for it too!); this last IPL4 being yet another example of that. I know these girls try to work hard and contribute, but let's face it, where are your typical nerdy girls? I personally am a bit sick of that stereotype, that all girls on stage have to look like princesses, instead of looking like your typical nerd.
I personally hate to admit I am a female, because most of us get judged by our looks, not on how much we love the game and stuff like that. And frankly, I don't give a damn about my appearance, I am not here to appease the male audience and I want to just enjoy the game. Not interested in that kind of spotlight, where I'd get finger pointed for being a girl. This totally shouldn't matter, to anyone.
From my experience, it is far better to just not even mention the gender; that way, I get treated normally, equally and get to play games w/o stupid and sexual reference jokes. The moment you go on ventrilo/skype/mumble (whatever), they usually react a bit odd. Why is that, I'm asking myself, and making sure that only few people actually know about my gender.
To bottom line it, it's both guys and girls being to be blamed, for this 'hot stereotype'. Most girls actually do care about how they look like and likewise, guys tend to care about that as well, sadly to the point, where it is often more important for them, than if said girl has actually any real interest in StarCraft 2. The only way to change is, to actually try and put an effort to simply accept, that there are girls, who actually enjoy the game and they are nerdy, and don't have to be worried about their looks either, without unnecessary finger pointing and commenting on how hot or ugly she is.
On April 09 2012 23:16 TheToast wrote: Okay this is one of those times where a response overshadows the blog. (sorry Zandar!)
No problem, I even agree lol
On April 10 2012 00:30 Jibba wrote: I'd like to think TL has made great strides to reduce the level of sexism within the boards, at least compared to other gaming communities
I do too.
and where we were several years ago, but reading the posts of RedJustice, Haemonculus and others, I guess we still have a long way to go, especially with regards to the subversive stuff.
Yep. Just wondering how. Besides tournament organisers, maybe sc2 celebrities like day9 could do something here. Occasionally invite a gaming girl/woman to their stream and things like that.
On April 10 2012 01:15 BabyToss! wrote: I actually pointed it out on Twitter, that only women, who are 'hot' and dress 'hot' get to be seen on stage (and got some nice shitstorm going for it too!); this last IPL4 being yet another example of that. I know these girls try to work hard and contribute, but let's face it, where are your typical nerdy girls? I personally am a bit sick of that stereotype, that all girls on stage have to look like princesses, instead of looking like your typical nerd.
I personally hate to admit I am a female, because most of us get judged by our looks, not on how much we love the game and stuff like that. And frankly, I don't give a damn about my appearance, I am not here to appease the male audience and I want to just enjoy the game. Not interested in that kind of spotlight, where I'd get finger pointed for being a girl. This totally shouldn't matter, to anyone.
You know what this part says about you ? You think you are not attractive. Maybe Anna and Rachel don't love the game as much as you do but they certainly have emotional ties to it. And that's why they are here on the stage not because they are pretty. They happen to be pretty because self-confidence is a big part of what makes someone gregarious (in the good sense of the term) and this is also (at different degrees) related to looks. You are blaming a something that happens in all kind of environment and thinks it is a mark of our community.
Isn't "typical nerd" as bad stereotype too ? Would you like to be described as living in your mom's basement ? Is that any better than the girl who got the job because she is allegedly pretty ? Because you are a nerd girl you can't enjoy getting dressed up in nice looking dresses ?
Yep. Just wondering how. Besides tournament organisers, maybe sc2 celebrities like day9 could do something here. Occasionally invite a gaming girl/woman to their stream and things like that.
No, that's the worst thing we could do is hype up girls because they're girls. Let them get their place through performance, and fame. Treat them the same.
On April 10 2012 01:36 Otolia wrote: Maybe Anna and Rachel don't love the game as much as you do but they certainly have emotional ties to it. And that's why they are here on the stage not because they are pretty. They happen to be pretty because self-confidence is a big part of what makes someone gregarious (in the good sense of the term) and this is also (at different degrees) related to looks.
Idk what fairy tail land you are living in, but I'd love to visit sometime.
I do have a lot of respect for Anna, she clearly works hard and has done a lot of work for esports. But lets be fair, she is where she is and got her job with EG because she is dating/marrying Incontrol. That's not to say she hasn't done great work and been a good embassador for the industry, but she got a fast track into it and her looks have certainly helped her.
Honestly though you really don't think looks don't matter you are crazy. Any job where one is facing the public looks are going to be weighed heavily. Women are judged even more critically. When's the last time you saw an overweight female news anchor or weatherperson? It's sad but it's true.
The reaction of some elements of this community to Scarlett is, I believe, good evidence that a lot of people are willing to judge people based on physical characteristics; instead of their gaming talent.
On April 10 2012 01:15 BabyToss! wrote: I actually pointed it out on Twitter, that only women, who are 'hot' and dress 'hot' get to be seen on stage (and got some nice shitstorm going for it too!); this last IPL4 being yet another example of that. I know these girls try to work hard and contribute, but let's face it, where are your typical nerdy girls? I personally am a bit sick of that stereotype, that all girls on stage have to look like princesses, instead of looking like your typical nerd.
I personally hate to admit I am a female, because most of us get judged by our looks, not on how much we love the game and stuff like that. And frankly, I don't give a damn about my appearance, I am not here to appease the male audience and I want to just enjoy the game. Not interested in that kind of spotlight, where I'd get finger pointed for being a girl. This totally shouldn't matter, to anyone.
You know what this part says about you ? You think you are not attractive. Maybe Anna and Rachel don't love the game as much as you do but they certainly have emotional ties to it. And that's why they are here on the stage not because they are pretty. They happen to be pretty because self-confidence is a big part of what makes someone gregarious (in the good sense of the term) and this is also (at different degrees) related to looks. You are blaming a something that happens in all kind of environment and thinks it is a mark of our community.
Isn't "typical nerd" as bad stereotype too ? Would you like to be described as living in your mom's basement ? Is that any better than the allegedly girl who got the job because she is pretty ? Because you are a nerd girl you can't enjoy getting dressed up in nice looking dresses ?
Well I don't agree with this at all. Where does she say she thinks she is not attractive? For all I know she is more attractive then these girls on stage, but doesn't care about her looks and just don't want to dress hot to please male gamers. Because she doesn't care about her looks as much as Anna or Rachel shouldn't mean shit. The majority of gamers don't care that much about their looks, so why should female gamers have to?
Yep. Just wondering how. Besides tournament organisers, maybe sc2 celebrities like day9 could do something here. Occasionally invite a gaming girl/woman to their stream and things like that.
No, that's the worst thing we could do is hype up girls because they're girls. Let them get their place through performance, and fame. Treat them the same.
Or do the both - invite a girl who performs well, like Scarlett, like make a daily in the place of the event like Day9 did a few times.
Yep. Just wondering how. Besides tournament organisers, maybe sc2 celebrities like day9 could do something here. Occasionally invite a gaming girl/woman to their stream and things like that.
No, that's the worst thing we could do is hype up girls because they're girls. Let them get their place through performance, and fame. Treat them the same.
Well he has guests from time to time but I don't think even 5% of these were female so lets treat them the same indeed! I see your point though and I agree that everyone should be treated equally. But it's not the case right now.
On April 10 2012 01:36 Otolia wrote: You know what this part says about you ? You think you are not attractive. Maybe Anna and Rachel don't love the game as much as you do but they certainly have emotional ties to it. And that's why they are here on the stage not because they are pretty. They happen to be pretty because self-confidence is a big part of what makes someone gregarious (in the good sense of the term) and this is also (at different degrees) related to looks. You are blaming a something that happens in all kind of environment and thinks it is a mark of our community.
Isn't "typical nerd" as bad stereotype too ? Would you like to be described as living in your mom's basement ? Is that any better than the allegedly girl who got the job because she is pretty ? Because you are a nerd girl you can't enjoy getting dressed up in nice looking dresses ?
That's the thing. I can't be bothered to dress in pretty dresses. In fact, my definition of looking pretty & elegant would be completelly different from your usual 'standard' - I'd choose to wear pant suits, if I really had to look formal, otherwise, wearing whatever is comfortable is what makes *me* feel good about myself. And, FYI, I don't live in my 'mom's basement'. I am married and have 8 years old kid, so again, your argument about 'nerd steroetypes' doesn't apply here.
I simply am tired and sick of the definition of what is 'pretty' & 'hot'. I mean, everyone has the right to have their own opinion on that, but there's sadly this stereotype (going both ways) about some sort of how woman should look like in the society. Something I don't give a damn about, btw. Many people just easily forget to be themselves, for the sake of some artifical 'society unwritten laws' because they are afraid of ridiculed, if they didn't conform to them. Being of the age I am, I am happy I grew out of that, and I sincerely wish more people, not just girls, but guys alike, will have that possibility one day as well.
Yep. Just wondering how. Besides tournament organisers, maybe sc2 celebrities like day9 could do something here. Occasionally invite a gaming girl/woman to their stream and things like that.
No, that's the worst thing we could do is hype up girls because they're girls. Let them get their place through performance, and fame. Treat them the same.
Well he has guests from time to time but I don't think even 5% of these were female so lets treat them the same indeed! I see your point though and I agree that everyone should be treated equally. But it's not the case right now.
It's certainly not the case, we're a long way from equality. We just have to keep treating them like us, and hopefully the trend gets popular. Males and Females.. We're both still human.
Also, older gamers. Be a role model. If a male is making discriminatory comments towards a female and she's requested for him to stop, speak up. Say something. A lot of times these males don't know HOW to act. Remember, a lot of gamers are escaping from something, and while this doesn't excuse their behavior you should make an attempt to teach them some proper conduct.
I think many males who joke online make sexually charged comments a lot of the times, whether a female is in the room or not. This is the normal thing for them. When a female comes into the room, he doesn't care. Which is perfectly fine. If he's requested to stop making those comments and doesn't. That's not fine.
It's all about respect. If someone doesn't like something you're doing and they ask you to please stop. You should. If you can't have a civil discussion, you shouldn't be talking anyways.
On April 10 2012 01:36 Otolia wrote: You know what this part says about you ? You think you are not attractive. Maybe Anna and Rachel don't love the game as much as you do but they certainly have emotional ties to it. And that's why they are here on the stage not because they are pretty. They happen to be pretty because self-confidence is a big part of what makes someone gregarious (in the good sense of the term) and this is also (at different degrees) related to looks. You are blaming a something that happens in all kind of environment and thinks it is a mark of our community.
Isn't "typical nerd" as bad stereotype too ? Would you like to be described as living in your mom's basement ? Is that any better than the allegedly girl who got the job because she is pretty ? Because you are a nerd girl you can't enjoy getting dressed up in nice looking dresses ?
That's the thing. I can't be bothered to dress in pretty dresses. In fact, my definition of looking pretty & elegant would be completelly different from your usual 'standard' - I'd choose to wear pant suits, if I really had to look formal, otherwise, wearing whatever is comfortable is what makes *me* feel good about myself. And, FYI, I don't live in my 'mom's basement'. I am married and have 8 years old kid, so again, your argument about 'nerd steroetypes' doesn't apply here.
I simply am tired and sick of the definition of what is 'pretty' & 'hot'. I mean, everyone has the right to have their own opinion on that, but there's sadly this stereotype (going both ways) about some sort of how woman should look like in the society. Something I don't give a damn about, btw. Many people just easily forget to be themselves, for the sake of some artifical 'society unwritten laws' because they are afraid of ridiculed, if they didn't conform to them. Being of the age I am, I am happy I grew out of that, and I sincerely wish more people, not just girls, but guys alike, will have that possibility one day as well.
On April 10 2012 01:36 Otolia wrote: You know what this part says about you ? You think you are not attractive. Maybe Anna and Rachel don't love the game as much as you do but they certainly have emotional ties to it. And that's why they are here on the stage not because they are pretty. They happen to be pretty because self-confidence is a big part of what makes someone gregarious (in the good sense of the term) and this is also (at different degrees) related to looks. You are blaming a something that happens in all kind of environment and thinks it is a mark of our community.
Isn't "typical nerd" as bad stereotype too ? Would you like to be described as living in your mom's basement ? Is that any better than the allegedly girl who got the job because she is pretty ? Because you are a nerd girl you can't enjoy getting dressed up in nice looking dresses ?
That's the thing. I can't be bothered to dress in pretty dresses. In fact, my definition of looking pretty & elegant would be completelly different from your usual 'standard' - I'd choose to wear pant suits, if I really had to look formal, otherwise, wearing whatever is comfortable is what makes *me* feel good about myself. And, FYI, I don't live in my 'mom's basement'. I am married and have 8 years old kid, so again, your argument about 'nerd steroetypes' doesn't apply here.
I simply am tired and sick of the definition of what is 'pretty' & 'hot'. I mean, everyone has the right to have their own opinion on that, but there's sadly this stereotype (going both ways) about some sort of how woman should look like in the society. Something I don't give a damn about, btw. Many people just easily forget to be themselves, for the sake of some artifical 'society unwritten laws' because they are afraid of ridiculed, if they didn't conform to them. Being of the age I am, I am happy I grew out of that, and I sincerely wish more people, not just girls, but guys alike, will have that possibility one day as well.
My questions were entirely rhetorical and I was using you as a general form, not to describe you particularly. I was just attempting to show you that you have stereotypes too and you judged people too. I don't want to derail this thread into a debate on what is feminism so I'm not going to continue into that path.
My main point is : If you want the situation of women to get better in our community you'd better start supporting them, no matter how they looks. And you certainly have to stop describing them as attention-whore.
I kind of don't get why everyone feels the need to pidgeon-hole people. I feel like the "gamer" community has a propensity for taking up the "us vs. them" mentality. I'm a guy, I work out a lot, I play a lot of sports, but most of all I consider myself a gamer. I'm half here and half there. Why can't someone like Anna be the same? A girl could be a Miss USA contestant, attractive, active, and still consider herself a nerd, can't she?
That being said, towards the OP, I think in any walk of life, an attractive human being has a better chance of succeeding than an unattractive one, given similar skillsets and qualifications. I definitely think it's even worse for females. It's a nice thought to think "The gamer community shouldn't be like that" but the companies that sponsor the teams that are part of the "gamer community" want to make money, and having an attractive female player on the team is much more positive publicity for them. The chivalry of it all is nice, but e-sports and gaming is still a business first and foremost. Look in music, the majority of stars are fairly normalized and attractive, men and women. There are fewer .. "different looking" (Adele, for example) women than men, for sure, but the principle still applies.
Anyways, good read so far keep the debate rolling!
On April 10 2012 02:15 Leyra wrote: I kind of don't get why everyone feels the need to pidgeon-hole people. I feel like the "gamer" community has a propensity for taking up the "us vs. them" mentality. I'm a guy, I work out a lot, I play a lot of sports, but most of all I consider myself a gamer. I'm half here and half there. Why can't someone like Anna be the same? A girl could be a Miss USA contestant, attractive, active, and still consider herself a nerd, can't she?
That being said, towards the OP, I think in any walk of life, an attractive human being has a better chance of succeeding than an unattractive one, given similar skillsets and qualifications. I definitely think it's even worse for females. It's a nice thought to think "The gamer community shouldn't be like that" but the companies that sponsor the teams that are part of the "gamer community" want to make money, and having an attractive female player on the team is much more positive publicity for them. The chivalry of it all is nice, but e-sports and gaming is still a business first and foremost. Look in music, the majority of stars are fairly normalized and attractive, men and women. There are fewer .. "different looking" (Adele, for example) women than men, for sure, but the principle still applies.
Anyways, good read so far keep the debate rolling!
There is no problem with Anna at all and of course a goodlooking person can be a nerd too. The problem is the absence at e-sports events of the female gamer who doesn't look like she's often winning beautycontests.
On April 10 2012 02:15 Leyra wrote: I kind of don't get why everyone feels the need to pidgeon-hole people. I feel like the "gamer" community has a propensity for taking up the "us vs. them" mentality. I'm a guy, I work out a lot, I play a lot of sports, but most of all I consider myself a gamer. I'm half here and half there. Why can't someone like Anna be the same? A girl could be a Miss USA contestant, attractive, active, and still consider herself a nerd, can't she?
That being said, towards the OP, I think in any walk of life, an attractive human being has a better chance of succeeding than an unattractive one, given similar skillsets and qualifications. I definitely think it's even worse for females. It's a nice thought to think "The gamer community shouldn't be like that" but the companies that sponsor the teams that are part of the "gamer community" want to make money, and having an attractive female player on the team is much more positive publicity for them. The chivalry of it all is nice, but e-sports and gaming is still a business first and foremost. Look in music, the majority of stars are fairly normalized and attractive, men and women. There are fewer .. "different looking" (Adele, for example) women than men, for sure, but the principle still applies.
Anyways, good read so far keep the debate rolling!
I'd like to echo this posters sentiment, as the "gamer" community is already one that tends to have issues with appearance and self-esteem, gamer girls notwithstanding. While I can definitely attest to the sexism that occurs when female gamers make it known to their fellow gamers that they are indeed female, many of the women who complain about the implications of their gender being known tend to ignore the fact that the bulk of the male gaming community is also suffering discriminations based on attractiveness, hence the entire "nerd in the basement" stereotype. I'm not suggesting that these problems suffered by gamers in general are any sort of excuse for sexist actions, but the fact of the matter is that nerds suffer across the board in our society that places such a high amount of importance on surface level qualities, and oftentimes when gamers lash out at females in the gaming community their actions are spurred by previously disastrous interactions with women in general. For every awkward flirtatious message on bnet there has been almost certainly an infatuation shot down, a public humiliation, or flat out isolation. Don't get me wrong, there is a definite line and sometimes creepy weirdos cross it, but a lot of the awkward general reception of women in the community is endemic of our general societies issues of vanity. This is why I love totally shattering peoples stereotypes of gamers (I'm a powerlifter, former football player, and a strong sense of self-esteem) and I would only encourage female gamers to do the same; revel in difference, ignore the haters/weirdos, and do what love :D
On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote: RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called?
In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own.
Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun.
I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class.
Nice to meet you.
Are you saying they should endure their mistreatment in silence? Fuck no dude.
On April 09 2012 22:41 Type|NarutO wrote:
On April 09 2012 22:29 Haemonculus wrote:
On April 09 2012 22:06 RedJustice wrote:
On April 09 2012 21:58 Zandar wrote:
I dislike drama and poor communication, and so my relationships of all kinds tend to be free from that. I would consider myself very low maintenance compared to many other women I know; but of course, I am bias, so take it for what you will. :D
No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online.
If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around.
The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist.
I want to 2nd this one as well.
What would you change, if you could make suggestions? Without a doubt , at least to me, it will always be that women will be treated badly by the majority. A woman no matter how well she playes or what she does... will probably be not equal to a man for the majority.
This is very sad, but I feel the female part of the community can't do anything to win them round. The majority will alway be stupid and sexist... and the minority that does appreciate what women in the community do will always be treated sceptical due to the experience women make...
Quiet sad;;
I think that those 65 pages of posts in Scarlett's fan club thread say a different story
Its a start, but 780 people the majority? Sadly not. The live report thread was a total mess with her being a MtF transgender. Lots of people don't even referred to HER as female. If I would have to spell one out, it would be VPCursed and I don't even want to post what he wrote to me via PM.
A big problem is that "female" is a sex-linked term while "her" is gender linked. It's not quite clear, even to myself, a person who is studying to be a genetic biologist, if I am supposed to refer to a genetic male as a female for the sake of being polite. "female", as far as humans are concerned, denotes a person with XX for their 23rd chromosome pair. While "her" "she" "woman" etc denotes anyone who identifies with the gender typically assigned to females at birth.
Don't get me wrong, I'll call her what she wants to be called out of a decent respect for her, as I have for all peoples. But it's not without its complications.
If you are studying to be a genetic biologist you should know that a transgender is actually not physically equal to a man (in case of MtF as we have now), at least according to wiki and other sources it doesn't.
But they don't suddenly change sexes, genetically speaking. She is stuck with her Y chromosome for life. That Y chromosome denotes a genetic male. While physically and socially, she is a woman. That's what I mean.
And I am certainly not trying to disrespect her when I say that. I'm just trying to assert that Sex and Gender are two different things, which people on both sides of the argument need to understand.
You're kinda ignoring everything other than XX/XY. There are other combinations as well...
On April 10 2012 02:10 Otolia wrote:My questions were entirely rhetorical and I was using you as a general form, not to describe you particularly. I was just attempting to show you that you have stereotypes too and you judged people too. I don't want to derail this thread into a debate on what is feminism so I'm not going to continue into that path.
My main point is : If you want the situation of women to get better in our community you'd better start supporting them, no matter how they looks. And you certainly have to stop describing them as attention-whore.
Well, the difference between so called 'feminism' and fairness is, that I can see the argument from both sides, whereas most of today's 'feminists' just want advantages for themselves, at the cost of being unfair to the other gender. Sadly, there are women, who do use their looks to gain an attention & that is where my frustrations stem from. And yes, I believe that is sad. Appearance totally shouldn't matter in the game industry. We all are gamers, and we should be equal, with similar opportunities, where what you do in game gets you far than some meaningless appearance.
Some girls get more opportunities because of not their passion for the game, but because of the appearance. I knew one female Master Zerg, participating on MLG as well, and she got nowhere near any attention like say, Ailuj, purely because that Zerg player was, what you'd define as 'mediocre', when it comes to looks. But, that Zerg player is someone, I respect far more as a gamer, than say, a woman, who gets noticed because of her appearance. I am looking for StarCraft 2 content, not for model's fashion. There are girls who I know are hardworking and yet, nobody notices them. Partly, because they can't be bothered to be spotlighted either, as they are focusing on the game, rather than focusing at puny sexism problems which we see flying around all the time, each time SC2 & women are mentioned in the same topic.
I personally would like to see switch in attitude both in guys and girls alike.
Guys should accept the fact, that there are women who play and stop fingerpointing at them, as if they were extraterrestials, or making them merely an object of sexual jokes, just because there's a woman.
Equally, women should try to blend in more, to be part of the community and not stand out because they are women and they think they are 'special' because of that - ie these female-only tournaments - they only pinpoint the fact that women are 'worse' and can't compete with guys. There will always be a skill gap, if we don't try hard enough. And of course, stop trying to appeal to male audience by mere appearance to get some special treatment, be it in form of help you'd otherwise not get or whatever. This is exactly that kind of thing, which gives ALL women who play the mark of 'attention whore' - just seeing some women flirt with progamers makes me sick in my stomach, and yes, I've seen it happening.
So, the fault is on both sides; just food for thought.
I am curious about something... As females how do you feel about Anna and Seltzer and their current positions in starcraft. (Though i dont really count Seltzer in relation to Anna since she actually at least came from a gaming background).
How do you feel as a woman when you see jobs handed to people with little to no interest/experience in Starcraft 2 or any other game, yet they are paid to host these events and interview the players?
For the life of me, I cannot figure out why IGN has decided to throw out their female hostess's in the tiniest little proper prom dresses. Well... I know why they do. But I honestly feel like it is degrading to every single person in the room and on the stream.
It feels like "hey well throw some ass at them.. nerds are lonely/horny. They will love this..." When honestly its a more of an insult than anything. I would traid Catspajamas or dApollo or any other caster as a host, rather than seeing someone in a tight dress walk on stage and try to pretend like she was interested or understood the games.
(And honestly I think Catspajamas or Moletrap or someone similar, who just ooze love for SC2... would be a fantastic host. Because its easy to hype the crowd when you are hyped yourself. Much better than "Wow that game was good.." "Ok. How was it good?" "I mean... wow it was just ... wow .. it was so good I cant even tell you why.... /smile")
It is one of those things where as much as women want to be treated like men and equally etc (tho I am not arguing that you shouldnt...) They also want to keep things like advancement simply because of their gender and sex appeal.
Anna wouldnt be on stage if she wasnt a female and good looking. Period. I dont know Seltzer's background, but I doubt being a gorgeous female hasn't helped her get to where she is. I honestly didnt mind Megumi as a hostess, because I know that she actually comes from a SC2 background. I know she used her sexuality to get famous and get the attention needed to have opportunities like she is given at IPL. But at least she went Starcraft 2> Girl. She learned and played and focused on SC2 before focusing on getting attention as a female gamer.
I dont know its just one of those paradoxes imo because Women want to advance their opportunities because of their gender, and then want "Hey dont give me special treatment because I am a woman."
On April 09 2012 20:48 Zandar wrote: Kpop is even worse. Those girls are all selected purely for looks. All the same hight and sizes. It doesn't even matter if they can sing, they can just moderate their voices.
This isnt entierly true, if they can prove to be an investment with having a decent voice and dance routine then they get plastic surgery paid for. In fact A LOT of kpop artist have this done. My friend from Korea and I were actually talking about this the other day haha.
How do you feel as a woman when you see jobs handed to people with little to no interest/experience in Starcraft 2 or any other game, yet they are paid to host these events and interview the players?
It's a bit sad, if you ask me. Especially that they represent these women as 'candy-eyes' to male audience, effectivelly appealing to males only and disregarding the female audience with such move. Anna got the job because she is in relationship with iNcontroL and because she is pretty; although I don't know her enough to judge if she actually cares about SC2 & e-sports. But yes, you are right, initially, she's got ths opportunity through connections & her appearance. Is that fair? No. Is that fairly common in today's world? Sadly, yes.
I am not going to take this approach as a role model for myself. I am firm believer, that despite of world being full of unfainress, bias, society 'norms' and generally about 'business', we should be fair towards each other and do what we love, no matter what background we have, what gender we are or whatever puny thing...and the best thing I can do, is to make the change and to start with myself. Because in the reality, all we can influence is, this little corner of our world, ourselves and hope, that if we lead by example, some more people will follow; and even one person following a good example is a success for me.
It is an insult for me for women to be always portrayed in the sexual way, and I will always speak up against that. Women are not that and should be not treated as such.
These women are not being paid as casters, or handed jobs doing something like game design.
They're hosts, they're entertaining. They wear formal, expensive dresses because that's what we expect of a host of an event. That's why even total nerds like the casters wear jackets.
If there were a male host, I'd expect him to be tall, handsome, and in a tux. He'd be well-spoken, comfortable in front of a crowd, and personable.
Just like the female hosts.
These women weren't handed jobs, they're qualified for the position that they're performing. They have poise, grace, are calm in front of a crowd and a camera, and we're lucky that they can even make jokes about the games- the LoL host even did some impressions from the game.
The fact that they're attractive is just part of the business. You want the "face" of your organization to be someone attractive, but not intimidating. The fact that the audience of a gaming tournament is overwhelmingly male (I mean, c'mon, at least 80%) suggests that you have a female host. I'd prefer to have a male-female duo with a bit of chemistry to be honest (just like every major awards ceremony).
All this having been said, I've spent several weekends in bed with girlfriends watching MLG or IPL over the last couple years, and seen girls out at barcrafts. It can happen! I'm just still searching for the perfect gamergf- they're elusive.
*EDIT* We can debate attractiveness in the business community further if you like, but it is equally prevalent for both sexes in client-facing roles. Your sales and marketing people are almost universally more attractive than your engineers and accountants, because it is important that people like you at first impression in that role. Even in sports, a study was recently done that showed in the NFL, that attractive quarterbacks made more money than unattractive quarterbacks. That's as elite as Code S, and still showing favoritism towards attractiveness.
I'm not saying its fair, and I'm not saying that I'm the hottest dude evar cuz I do sales omfg! But I work out, keep myself fit, my hair and nails trimmed, etc because I have to in a client-facing role. Just like the female hosts do.
On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote: RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called?
In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own.
Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun.
I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class.
Nice to meet you.
Are you saying they should endure their mistreatment in silence? Fuck no dude.
On April 09 2012 22:41 Type|NarutO wrote:
On April 09 2012 22:29 Haemonculus wrote:
On April 09 2012 22:06 RedJustice wrote:
On April 09 2012 21:58 Zandar wrote: [quote]
No problem with that lol. In my experience, the real female gamers hate attention whores and drama queens even more than I do
[quote]
I'd like to think that that's a very vocal minority. The 14 year old kids that start sweating and become all shy and silent when standing next to a woman irl. Who compensate by trying to be the tough guy online.
If you saw the amount of hate chat in the channel during scarletts games and then saw her fanthread after that's a good indication. Sure there were bans needed in the thread but just a tiny fraction of the bans in the chat. So many more people in the community seem to love her than hate here, but from those chats you'd think it was the other way around.
The problem is not a vocal minority-- it is a invocal majority. The sexism is created by an atmosphere of permissiveness and implied encouragement of what the minority has to say. And in that, I think it is correct to say the community as an entity is pretty sexist.
I want to 2nd this one as well.
What would you change, if you could make suggestions? Without a doubt , at least to me, it will always be that women will be treated badly by the majority. A woman no matter how well she playes or what she does... will probably be not equal to a man for the majority.
This is very sad, but I feel the female part of the community can't do anything to win them round. The majority will alway be stupid and sexist... and the minority that does appreciate what women in the community do will always be treated sceptical due to the experience women make...
Quiet sad;;
I think that those 65 pages of posts in Scarlett's fan club thread say a different story
Its a start, but 780 people the majority? Sadly not. The live report thread was a total mess with her being a MtF transgender. Lots of people don't even referred to HER as female. If I would have to spell one out, it would be VPCursed and I don't even want to post what he wrote to me via PM.
A big problem is that "female" is a sex-linked term while "her" is gender linked. It's not quite clear, even to myself, a person who is studying to be a genetic biologist, if I am supposed to refer to a genetic male as a female for the sake of being polite. "female", as far as humans are concerned, denotes a person with XX for their 23rd chromosome pair. While "her" "she" "woman" etc denotes anyone who identifies with the gender typically assigned to females at birth.
Don't get me wrong, I'll call her what she wants to be called out of a decent respect for her, as I have for all peoples. But it's not without its complications.
If you are studying to be a genetic biologist you should know that a transgender is actually not physically equal to a man (in case of MtF as we have now), at least according to wiki and other sources it doesn't.
But they don't suddenly change sexes, genetically speaking. She is stuck with her Y chromosome for life. That Y chromosome denotes a genetic male. While physically and socially, she is a woman. That's what I mean.
And I am certainly not trying to disrespect her when I say that. I'm just trying to assert that Sex and Gender are two different things, which people on both sides of the argument need to understand.
You're kinda ignoring everything other than XX/XY. There are other combinations as well...
And if this were a discussion on the social treatment of genetically varied peoples, I would discuss them too. It's about females, which implies to some degree a standard XX. But even XXY or XYYY is still male.
While I don't have anything more in particular to contribute at this moment (I left a short post on page 1), I just wanted to say that the discussion here has so far been a fantastic read. So thanks to all the people that contributed, and especially to the OP who got it started!
@Crownlol - well, then my beef is, why woman's 'formal' always is making them look like so they are so revealing & thus, pointing them out as object of sexuality, for lack of better words? I mean, you can wear formal suit & pants as a woman and still be formal. This is kind of my peeve for quite a while. Just because it appeases the male audience? But what message it sends to the 'mortal' female gamers? Think about it. Isn't it something along the lines 'you have to be hot, in order to be even recognized'? How bad is that.. it makes me feel sick, personally.
On April 10 2012 03:25 BabyToss! wrote: @Crownlol - well, then my beef is, why woman's 'formal' always is making them look like so they are so revealing & thus, pointing them out as object of sexuality, for lack of better words? I mean, you can wear formal suit & pants as a woman and still be formal. This is kind of my peeve for quite a while. Just because it appeases the male audience? But what message it sends to the 'mortal' female gamers? Think about it. Isn't it something along the lines 'you have to be hot, in order to be even recognized'? How bad is that.. it makes me feel sick, personally.
Hosts of award shows in other venues are usually attractive male/female combos, or comedians. Men wear suits because they're "formal" and look nice. Women wear sparkly dresses and shit because they're "formal" and look nice. If you think women look better in a suit than they do in dresses, that's your right to think so, but the majority of the world disagrees with you. If you ask Anna if she wanted to wear a suit or a dress while hosting, she'd probably say a suit, because she thinks it's pretty, and likes to look pretty. (an assumption, because if I was asked to wear a suit or sweats while hosting, I'd say a suit, cause it makes me look baller.)
On April 10 2012 03:28 Leyra wrote: Hosts of award shows in other venues are usually attractive male/female combos, or comedians. Men wear suits because they're "formal" and look nice. Women wear sparkly dresses and shit because they're "formal" and look nice. If you think women look better in a suit than they do in dresses, that's your right to think so, but the majority of the world disagrees with you. If you ask Anna if she wanted to wear a suit or a dress while hosting, she'd probably say a suit, because she thinks it's pretty, and likes to look pretty. (an assumption, because if I was asked to wear a suit or sweats while hosting, I'd say a suit, cause it makes me look baller.)
Well, that's my beef with the whole 'formal' though. It encourages women to look revealing and thus, as some sort of sexual object. But, that is a problem of the society as a whole, rather than just SC2 & e-sports. But, it is still imo wrong in my eyes, and the women should be able to choose, even when on stage, on what they want to wear.
On April 10 2012 03:25 BabyToss! wrote: @Crownlol - well, then my beef is, why woman's 'formal' always is making them look like so they are so revealing & thus, pointing them out as object of sexuality, for lack of better words? I mean, you can wear formal suit & pants as a woman and still be formal. This is kind of my peeve for quite a while. Just because it appeases the male audience? But what message it sends to the 'mortal' female gamers? Think about it. Isn't it something along the lines 'you have to be hot, in order to be even recognized'? How bad is that.. it makes me feel sick, personally.
If anything, females have more portals because of their looks. A regular masters player wouldn't even get attention, while an attractive female has a chance. The males in the spotlight now are the top players, attractive ones, and the ones with entertaining personalities.
Some women enjoy getting made up and into dresses. If that's not you, it's not you. Attractiveness is universal. It's MUCH easier to look, and be drawn to an attractive person. Which is needed for viewership. I've seen women that are very attractive in a suit that's fitted properly.
Looks are an advantage. Personality another. Skill is undeniable. If a female was qualified for Code S, everyone would notice no matter how attractive. I don't even know all the males qualified for Code S right now.
While being 'hot' gets you recognized much quicker, it's no different than the male personalities that have arisen. We all have a couple male players in mind that get more attention than their skills are worth.
A quickly rising competitive minded female gamer gets much more attention than the male counterpart at the same level of skill. So while attractive girls do have more exposure than the more homely looking, they still get more attention overall than the males in the same situation currently.
Well, that's my beef with the whole 'formal' though. It encourages women to look revealing and thus, as some sort of sexual object. But, that is a problem of the society as a whole, rather than just SC2 & e-sports. But, it is still imo wrong in my eyes, and the women should be able to choose, even when on stage, on what they want to wear.
I agree to some extent. If they're being paid, they should wear what their employer pays them to wear, as long as it's not culturally offensive. But ask any guy how they want to perform an award show, in sweats or in a suit, and 99% is gonna say in a suit, cause it looks good. Most people like looking good, cause it makes them feel good. Women are the same, they wear what people think looks good, because they want to feel good. It's not as simple as saying "society makes them wear it" imo, it's the women themselves too. You look good, you feel good, you feel good, you look good. It's a circle, lol
"Formalwear" has been established for decades, and isn't generally too super revealing. A good formal dress should have proper materials and cut, etc, and a good one should accentuate whatever your best features are independent of your dress size. Yes, the ones these girls are wearing for this event are more on the sexy side (and if I'd worked as hard as them for that physique, I'd show it too), but they don't have to be. Although, this gets into the area of what is "looking good" vs "looking sexy", since they coincide quite a bit.
If you're looking at a guy in a suit, should it be fitted and tailored properly, so that his shoulders looks strong and his waist looks trim? Of course. However, this is easy for guys. "Looking good" in a professional sense also happens to be pretty sexy to most women.
Personally, I'd prefer to see red-carpet type dresses on female hosts. Yes, it's attractive, but they shouldn't be objectified. Just glamorous I guess.
At least in my experience, and I can't say I know how all types of women will act, most girls go for the same type of effect when they want to look great. They do their hair, their makeup, and get a nice expensive outfit that shows off whatever features they're most proud of (or least embarrassed of- I swear, even the most beautiful women have body issues. But that is a whole different discussion, fashion industry).
tl,dr; I have no problem with women getting all fancied up for hosting roles, but the limit should be at objectification. Event hosts? Great. Booth babes? Objects.
On April 10 2012 03:36 Leyra wrote: I agree to some extent. If they're being paid, they should wear what their employer pays them to wear, as long as it's not culturally offensive. But ask any guy how they want to perform an award show, in sweats or in a suit, and 99% is gonna say in a suit, cause it looks good. Most people like looking good, cause it makes them feel good. Women are the same, they wear what people think looks good, because they want to feel good. It's not as simple as saying "society makes them wear it" imo, it's the women themselves too. You look good, you feel good, you feel good, you look good. It's a circle, lol
Well, the thing is; it's more about the fact that women usually do care about what people tell about them, and they are much more critized, when it comes to their appearance, so they try to appease others. I've seen it happening, that one woman would gossip the other on how she looks, critically, and this is part of why women try to look good, in what the society sees as nice 'normally'. There is this 'normalization' and labelling in the society, and trying to say it's not there is rather blind statement. I know I was made to wear certain stuff and do certain stuff, because I was a female when I was young. And trust me, I hardly found it fair. I wanted to find my own way, which I eventually did.
I learnt to do what I love, learnt to wear what makes *me* feel good about myself and to feel some sort of self-worth. And I wish that today's society would be able to accept that people are unique beings and wouldn't label them based on gender or anything else. But, I guess that won't be the case, if we all keep excusing this whole what is 'normal' and 'formal' today, rather than looking at individuals.
Man these conversations seem so bizarre. Who cares about pretty dresses? Dress in what you feel like. And if you want to look good, dress in whatever makes you look good. It's not like pantsuits don't look good. Its not like girls can't pull off the cargo pants/tank top look. Sheesh.
And NoMicro gave that long post on how you should/should not act as a girl on the Internet? Geez, not helping. Just be yourself. Be funny, be kind, be manner. Why should you blend in if you're trying to be noticed? Why are people overthinking this?
This is exactly the community to show off your personality (although I definitely would not be a negative person while on stream as that seems to generate haters).
On April 10 2012 04:12 DoubleReed wrote: Man these conversations seem so bizarre. Who cares about pretty dresses? Dress in what you feel like. And if you want to look good, dress in whatever makes you look good. It's not like pantsuits don't look good. Its not like girls can't pull off the cargo pants/tank top look. Sheesh.
And NoMicro gave that long post on how you should/should not act as a girl on the Internet? Geez, not helping. Just be yourself. Be funny, be kind, be manner. Why should you blend in if you're trying to be noticed? Why are people overthinking this?
My post wasn't about not being yourself. It was about being yourself, but acting with proper respect towards others. I think you missed the point a little. I was getting across a point about equality. Be whoever you are, but if being who are towards someone bothers them and they ask you to stop. You do. Find someone else to joke with that has similar ideals and joke away.
On April 10 2012 04:12 DoubleReed wrote: Man these conversations seem so bizarre. Who cares about pretty dresses? Dress in what you feel like. And if you want to look good, dress in whatever makes you look good. It's not like pantsuits don't look good. Its not like girls can't pull off the cargo pants/tank top look. Sheesh.
And NoMicro gave that long post on how you should/should not act as a girl on the Internet? Geez, not helping. Just be yourself. Be funny, be kind, be manner. Why should you blend in if you're trying to be noticed? Why are people overthinking this?
My post wasn't about not being yourself. It was about being yourself, but acting with proper respect towards others. I think you missed the point a little. I was getting across a point about equality. Be whoever you are, but if being who are towards someone bothers them and they ask you to stop. You do. Find someone else to joke with that has similar ideals and joke away.
Having a few close-knit friends and FU to everyone else? I dunno. If I was a girl this is the sort of advice that would convince me to participate in the community less rather than more. Downright terrifying.
Come on, the way to be welcoming of women is be positive and excited. I want this community to be egalitarian. I don't want women to be scared of streaming or showing off their personality.
On April 10 2012 04:12 DoubleReed wrote: Man these conversations seem so bizarre. Who cares about pretty dresses? Dress in what you feel like. And if you want to look good, dress in whatever makes you look good. It's not like pantsuits don't look good. Its not like girls can't pull off the cargo pants/tank top look. Sheesh.
And NoMicro gave that long post on how you should/should not act as a girl on the Internet? Geez, not helping. Just be yourself. Be funny, be kind, be manner. Why should you blend in if you're trying to be noticed? Why are people overthinking this?
My post wasn't about not being yourself. It was about being yourself, but acting with proper respect towards others. I think you missed the point a little. I was getting across a point about equality. Be whoever you are, but if being who are towards someone bothers them and they ask you to stop. You do. Find someone else to joke with that has similar ideals and joke away.
Having a few close-knit friends and FU to everyone else? I dunno. If I was a girl this is the sort of advice that would convince me to participate in the community less rather than more.
Come on, the way to be welcoming of women is be positive and excited. I want this community to be egalitarian. I don't want women to be scared of streaming or showing off their personality.
Oh, sorry I see your point now. I tried to give a very black and white situation for a very complicated manner. I was trying to say that some personalities simply don't clash. By all means, girls should be themselves, get out there, expose their personalities to the community. We shouldn't welcome them for being females, we should welcome them for their constructive input and varied personalities.
"Come on, the way to be welcoming of women is be positive and excited" I agree with this, but it applies to males as well. If you're positive and excited towards someone of course they'll enjoy the reception! Just make sure you're positive and excited for a reason other than them just being a woman.
On April 10 2012 04:31 NoMicro wrote: We shouldn't welcome them for being females, we should welcome them for their constructive input and varied personalities.
@babytoss i think the dress/image thing (particularly in formalwear etc) is a societal issue rather than a gaming one. Not to say we shouldn't and can't try to address the issue that women are valued primarily for their appearance, but that is something that is wrong with the world, not specific to the SC2 community.
If we could get TL to the place where Anna's wardrobe is our biggest sexism concern i think we'd have made a HUGE change to this community.
I think it's moving forward (or I hope it is) through all the little problems. Things like the kellymilkies stuff, and now scarlett's arrival on the scene are opening alot of people's eyes to issues like casual sexism. I hope that for every person banned others are understanding how unacceptable behaviour like that is.
On April 10 2012 04:51 kerpal wrote: @babytoss i think the dress/image thing (particularly in formalwear etc) is a societal issue rather than a gaming one. Not to say we shouldn't and can't try to address the issue that women are valued primarily for their appearance, but that is something that is wrong with the world, not specific to the SC2 community.
If we could get TL to the place where Anna's wardrobe is our biggest sexism concern i think we'd have made a HUGE change to this community.
I think it's moving forward (or I hope it is) through all the little problems. Things like the kellymilkies stuff, and now scarlett's arrival on the scene are opening alot of people's eyes to issues like casual sexism. I hope that for every person banned others are understanding how unacceptable behaviour like that is.
That's what I pointed out in one of my later posts - that this whole 'formal' wardrobe is a society issue. However, we are gamers, and we could make a difference, if we tried enough. If we all dismiss the issue as 'society' issue, then sure, it will go on. However, if we start with ourselves, we may, in the end, make some difference. That's what I am talking about mostly and I wish it'd actually sink in and more people followed the suit, so to speak. We won't make difference in the course of days, weeks, months, perhaps, but there's always that starting point and it will break sooner or later, if enough people realize this.
The 'issue' with Scarlett - I was truly apalled by show of immaturity of so many people. Who are we to judge others... we all are unique human beings and should be better than labelling people based on sex/gender or whatever bullcrap. The society might influenced us, but in the end, we all do posses free will and can make decisions on our own. The thing is - who has the actual balls to step up, no matter what the society thinks, and do what is more fair, even at the cost of being disliked by 'sheeps'? From my experience in life - not many. Something to think about.
Ohman, lots of stuff to respond to here. I suppose I'll start with Jibba: + Show Spoiler +
On April 10 2012 00:30 Jibba wrote: I'd like to think TL has made great strides to reduce the level of sexism within the boards, at least compared to other gaming communities and where we were several years ago, but reading the posts of RedJustice, Haemonculus and others, I guess we still have a long way to go, especially with regards to the subversive stuff.
The idea of the attention whore as a major negative is silly to begin with. It surely exists, for both men and women, but that doesn't necessarily make it a bad thing. I view it as the entire reason for the Blog section.
With regards to calling people beautiful/cute/etc. I think there's a somewhat fine line between complimenting someone's looks respectfully and creepily, and given the lack of nuance in internet text, it's sometimes impossible to read the difference.
You're spot on that TL has made great improvements. I do consider TL to be a relative haven from sexism when compared to the general gaming community. Compared to reddit for example, TL is great. Compared to being the only girl in a warhammer shop, TL is fantastic. But you're right that we can always strive for better. "It could be worse" is not a valid vindication for anything in my opinion.
Which brings me to Chargelot and his rendition of the classic "Yes, but" argument. + Show Spoiler +
If a jew tells people he is jewish, what will happen to him? If a german (think COD, BF) says he's german, what will he be called?
In a sense, everyone has to roll with the punches. Even if you're a white male 20 year old atheist from a wealthy family with a similarly described and objectively beautiful and intelligent female fiance, people will find something about you and use it against you. Sexism is just one of the billion isms that plague the internet, and all of the gaming communities in the world, even our own.
Does that make it right? Absolutely not. But you're not alone in the fact that you're being called out and offended. We're all on the business side of that gun.
I am: White male. 20 Years old. Semi-Christian (it's long/confusing) Overweight (working on it though!) American. Lower ("working") class.
Nice to meet you.
"Sure it sucks that women are discriminated against, but so are X, Y, and Z!" "Yes the gaming culture is kinda sexist, but so is this other group of people!" "Yes, but X community has some good aspects too! It's not fair to not talk about that!"
When the subject of sexism comes up, and men change the subject, it trivializes sexism.
When the topic of sexism comes up, and men change the subject to something that's about them, it conveys the message that whatever men want to talk about is more important than sexism. It conveys the message that you are the ones that really matter, and that any harm done to you (and forgive my relative lack of sympathy for your hardships experienced as a young while male), and that any injustice done to you is more important than sexism. I'm not trying to claim in any way that women are the only discriminated against group on the internet. I'm trying to explain that bringing up other minority groups and implying their resilience to such treatment does nothing productive for the conversation.
I am: White female. 25 years old. Pagan/Atheist (it's long and confusing) Thin but not in shape, (working on it) American. Middle Class.
On April 09 2012 23:14 Nokarot wrote: I tend to think that sexism is kind of a shitty thing in general and try not to participate in it at all, but there is something I have to say that not everybody will be happy with.
Stereotypes exist for a reason. They are ignorant, offensive, and very often false, but they exist and were invented because people see relations in them. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that there is any scientific evidence to suggest black people are genetically predisposed to like fried chicken, but I will say that some (read: not all) girl gamers who've taken the spotlight have acted in a way that create these stereotypes.
It's a male-dominated vocal community (which is to say, more gamer girls exist than forums/etc would suggest.) When companies like Ubisoft hire the Frag Dolls to be their gamer marketing team, they reinforce the stereotype by using sex to get attention. Jessica Chobot gained her initial fame by licking a playstation controller (as opposed to her job, which she legitimately worked hard to gain.) G4 hosts are worshipped for posing in Maxim/Playboy. The PMS Clan, for years, sponsored casual players to travel to tournaments (CPL, old school MLG etc. I'm not talking about Flo) where they often secured last place, and then went on to do interviews about how cool they are for being girl gamers, in a clan that literally has a "no boys allowed" sticker on it. At one point, their brother clan, H2O, were also referred to as "Water boys" and PMS meant "Psychotic Man Slayers," (now "Pandoras Mighty Soldiers") which, needless to say, was equally sexist on their part.
It's unfortunate that sexism exists, but it doesn't only exist because guys are jerks. It also exists because certain individuals in the industry made it so. No, lulsusie wearing a bathing suit in a hot tub isn't the definition of "attention whore," I agree. However, in more extreme examples, there's certainly some connection.
I'm not justifying sexism by saying this, merely stating why it exists. I'm a guy and I think it's pretty disgraceful the way things are. In my years on the internet, I've made plenty of female friends whom don't fit the stereotypes whatsoever. It's unfortunate that they're subject to sexism despite that, and I wish there was something to do about it. However, I think those girls who are in the spotlight need to set a better example just as much as guys have to stop being assholes before anything can change.
People like Anna, Seltzer and Lilsusie are good examples of females in the spotlight who I think are helping combat sexism, by doing what they do without labeling themselves as a gender. Unfortunately, this problem has existed long before they came along, and it's going to be a bit uphill struggle for anything to change.
As for why they dress pretty on stage, while I doubt IPL is picking their dresses, I imagine they did have some kind of dress code. Smix rolled in to MLG with jeans and T-Shirt, after all, unlike IPL. I wouldn't necessarily blame the girls on that, and even if they did choose to dress up, that's their own call.
I'm no fan of the fragdolls or PMS clan but I'd be hesitant to say that they're the reason people assume or expect me to play a healer/support in team games. Sure there are women, (even here on TL) who seemingly go to great lengths to sexualize themselves, and while they're certainly not helping the image of the female gamer, it just seems silly to imply that they're the *cause* of sexism in gaming. I think what LilSusie and Smix do is fantastic for the community and the image of women in gaming.
Regardless, this is another faulty argument used often to not necessarily justify, but explain away sexism/racism or any other type of prejudice/discrimination. ("I have nothing wrong with gays, but why do some of them have to be so flamboyant?" as if the actions of those few are reason to be suspect of all gays) Claiming that those in the public eye are to blame by setting a bad example is not helpful. You've created a standard or set of behaviors that you expect "proper" (for lack of a better term) women to adhere to. You bring up examples of some girls not conforming to this standard as a reason that the rest may not be taken seriously.
Nok's post is quite tame compared to NoMicro's though. + Show Spoiler +
On April 10 2012 00:53 NoMicro wrote: I've now 20 year old male, I started playing PC games around the time I was 8. I started getting into clans around 12. Since then, I've been in a countless number of them. Some, with horrible communities of sexist, annoying, pricks. Others, had nice communities of helping hands.
Being a male, I haven't experienced the sexism first hand to the same extent as the women I've played with over the years. (However,some socially awkward girl gamers are just as filthy, dirty, and disgusting as their counterparts.) Some girls, ENABLE. They're horrible. They giggle when a off-handed comment comes their way. They need to say "No" and be more direct.
These are males that are probably 14-19 years old, full of hormones and socially inexperienced.This is a ticking time bomb and I'm sorry that the females are the trigger that sets them off.
You can set them straight most the time. Be confident, know what you want, and say it. You're looking to game, have fun, and be in a supportive community. Not to be gawked at, teased, flirted with, and abused. If that doesn't happen, leave the community. Find another one.
DON'T innocently flirt. These are deprived males. Any signal, any slight glimpse, flicker, or tell that you may have an "interest" in the guy on more than a platonic level. Don't do it. Make sure the guy is stable enough to understand it's just an innocent joke.
Be a bit more blunt for a while. Take up a Head-Bitch mentality for a while and lighten up over time. Opening to the ones with sense. Keep hold of the people with sense.
Basically, don't join clans or communities with the intention of staying, give it a couple of weeks as a trial and see how evolved the community is.
What the girl looks like, how she dresses, the attention she wants, is all irrelevant. Their is nothing wrong with being an attention-whore if you want to be one. Not my style, i'd probably just ignore you.
These guys. don't have enough experience with the opposite gender to know what they LIKE, and what the DON'T LIKE, so they see BOOBS and get all excited because you having boobs means they must like you. Show off a bit of that horrible, vain, personality, be a head-bitch and make them learn their lesson instead.
The biggest tool you have available is that their is a countless number of gaming communities. You don't like one, hop to another. Let them learn, or not. They'll just be stuck in a sausage fest of a Ventrilo.
Final note: Keep tabs with cool people who you know just want platonic, chill times. Cut ties off with the other ones ASAP before they get any ideas. Oh, and if you're feeling evil and play item-based games just manipulate the shit out of the guys until they learn that some girls are bitches too. =P
TL;DR: Just like Real-Life you get a few close-knit friends you trust and say FU to everyone else. Don't settle for pervs, let them learn. Get good with the mute button. BE UPFRONT. You're here to play GAMES, not with their tiny dicks.
And then you could also go on about the enabling girls. They flirt, send pictures, and generally act like the girl who drank 3 too many, took a couple of triple-stacked MDMAs and do anything you tell them to. Socially awkward nerd girls are part of the problem. If the only girl a guy talks to regularly is some socially inexperienced, needy, low confidence trick , that does these things, it's going to give him unrealistic expectations of all women. You sane women have to deal with breaking down these conceptions the socially awkward side of your gender has also helped forge.
Shifting blame to the victims much? Not only have you created your own ideas of how women "should" act, and reasoned that not following such expectations is the reason why they are marginalized, but you even go on to explain exactly how we should act, as if we're clueless in how we contribute to our own marginalization. I don't think you're even aware of how arrogant and privileged you come off as. I'd love to have this conversation face to face, lol. (Your advice is shit, by the way. Do you know what kind of reaction a girl will get if she announces her presence in a new community by saying "I'm here to game! Don't hit on me!" hint: we'll be reading blog posts about attention whoring GAMER GURLLZZ twice as often)
"These are deprived males." Do men not find this insulting? You suggest that they are completely incapable of controlling their own behavior, emotions, and reactions, (and you even imply that they cannot even understand their own emotions), and thus women should behave a certain way to make it easier on them? Your future posts are somewhat redeeming, but your main point still boils down to "men are this way, so women should act that way to make it easy on them," assuming that men are the constant which cannot or should not be expected to change, and that women need to modify themselves to "fit" into their world.
What did you expect? "Welcome, sonny"? "Make yourself at home"? "Marry my daughter"? You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons.
Teehee, I quoted Mel Brooks and made a racism analogy at the same time.
The 'issue' with Scarlett - I was truly apalled by show of immaturity of so many people. Who are we to judge others... we all are unique human beings and should be better than labelling people based on sex/gender or whatever bullcrap. The society might influenced us, but in the end, we all do posses free will and can make decisions on our own. The thing is - who has the actual balls to step up, no matter what the society thinks, and do what is more fair, even at the cost of being disliked by 'sheeps'? From my experience in life - not many. Something to think about.
The rampant e-thuggery at Scarlett's expense was disgusting to me. She comes out, plays a brilliant tournament, and uneducated 12yo's just spewed hate all over their monitors.
To that end, if you're listening Scarlett: Haters gonna hate! Strut around all this week like the queen of the world, you earned it.
@BabyToss - Looking for someone to stand up against norms, this is the place to do it. I'm outspokenly anti-theist, I mock pop culture in front of pretty plastic girls in bars, and I care zero for regular sports. More and more society is becoming much more educated, liberal, and open-minded. Megusta.
It's kind of stupid to label people based on gender, but at the same time, I find a girl willing to publicly admit that she's a gamer incredibly attractive and brave. I think most guys do. Breaking molds is often refreshing and charming. Then again, girls probably aren't super turned on when I tell them I really don't give a shit about major sports. If you say to a girl "yeah, I'm gunna spend the weekend getting drunk and watching football with the guys" most girls think "awwww, he's SUCH a guy!". Whereas, if I were to say "I'm going to play at least 20hours of starcraft while watching it on TV with my friends" many girls think "what a loser".
I've heard it time and again from both men and women that "oversexualized" girls make it more difficult on the rest of the female gaming community because they lower male expectations, but the problem with that is 1) it's still viewing the entire scene through the same paradigm of men vs. women, which immediately hamstrings the discussion and prevents much progress and 2) if people's judgements of an entire group are based upon the actions of a few, then that's entirely on the people doing the judgement. Fuck them.
It's the same as that blog last week about how gamers should grow up because of others' negative perceptions of us - that's their fault for being judgmental pricks. People should be who they want to be and whether that's flamboyant, conservative, outgoing, shy, etc. it usually doesn't have much of an impact on their moral character or the type of community member they are. I may make fun of the number of sparkles on Anna's dress and ask if I can buy a vowel, but that dress doesn't affect how I think of her as a community member.
On April 09 2012 20:48 Zandar wrote: Kpop is even worse. Those girls are all selected purely for looks. All the same hight and sizes. It doesn't even matter if they can sing, they can just moderate their voices.
Although I have responded already, I will add something I just realized. Since this is a blog about sexism etc. I don't care what you call it, and you're taking the side with women... don't you find it just a little inappropriate to go ahead and say something like this? I mean there are actually good and awesome singers in KPOP, at least in my opinion.
Consider this performance by IU. And I'm not saying she's a briliant singer or anything, I hardly know anything about the matter, but still. + Show Spoiler +
She's a hardworking singer and she had it rough in the beginnings (actually partly because of her looks since she was chubby back then).
And then someone (you) comes along and says all Kpop girls are rubbish singers that only got to where they are thanks to their looks. Doesn't that strike you as ironic? All that is needed here is to have respect for other people and you just proved you can be as ignorant as the people you're "attacking" in OP.
I'm not saying this to make you look like a hypocrite, but because if you filter out trolling, this ignorance is IMO the key thing that's causing all this mess and that's something we should all work on (me included). Don't judge people or their work if you don't know the whole story and even then, don't ever throw everyone in the same bag. I think that's the core of the problem here.
When the topic of sexism comes up, and men change the subject to something that's about them, it conveys the message that whatever men want to talk about is more important than sexism. It conveys the message that you are the ones that really matter, and that any harm done to you (and forgive my relative lack of sympathy for your hardships experienced as a young while male), and that any injustice done to you is more important than sexism. I'm not trying to claim in any way that women are the only discriminated against group on the internet. I'm trying to explain that bringing up other minority groups and implying their resilience to such treatment does nothing productive for the conversation.
Hey, thanks Haemonculus, I was hoping we'd get to this part of the conversation.
I am:
26 year old white male Educated and well-spoken with non-regional diction From an upper-middle class family with two loving parents in one of the most successful areas on the planet In shape Atheist
With the exception of my total hate for religion of all kinds, let me admit something that I just came to realize about myself. I have been given every single advantage that anyone can possibly have. Until recently, I had been under the impression that the world is an even playing field, at least in this day and age! There's certainly no workplace discrimination anymore, right!?
Wow, was I wrong. Sexism and racism absolutely do still exist, and it isn't just relegated to the deep south. I made a friend in college that had a significantly better resume than me, and I find better jobs, easier, to this day. Why? Not because he's black, but because of where he grew up he still "talks black", with the half-southern/ half-street sound (by the way, did anyone guess he was black from the first sentence?).
Which brings me to my point, Haemo. I completely agree that changing the subject when a tough issue comes up completely trivializes the issue. My question is, if you know the game is twisted, do you play the game? Knowing that women are more evaluated on looks in a professional environment, do you wear something with just a touch of hotness to interviews? If you had an accent, would you take lessons to fix it? Knowing that women can have equal success compared to men as executives- but only in a few specializations (Marketing, HR, Advertising- the "glass elevator")- do you go into those specializations?
On April 10 2012 05:44 Crownlol wrote: Which brings me to my point, Haemo. I completely agree that changing the subject when a tough issue comes up completely trivializes the issue. My question is, if you know the game is twisted, do you play the game? Knowing that women are more evaluated on looks in a professional environment, do you wear something with just a touch of hotness to interviews? If you had an accent, would you take lessons to fix it? Knowing that women can have equal success compared to men as executives- but only in a few specializations (Marketing, HR, Advertising- the "glass elevator")- do you go into those specializations?
Actually, every interview I've ever been to has been with another woman. But yes, I suppose I do play the game to some extent, (I need a job for money and all that jazz). I wouldn't say I go out of my way to look "hot" for an interview, but I dress as professionally as I can, with clothes that are flattering, and I certainly put a lot more effort into my hair/makeup than I would ever do on a normal day. I may dislike the system, but we're still all bound by it in one form or another.
Mmkay, wow. Honestly, I have yet to read every single thing that's been said in this thread so far, just saw it on BabyToss's twitter feed and thought I would throw in my two cents. From what I've glanced at, seems like the age-old stereotyping of the sexes, but I will come back and form a better response later once I've had a chance to read everything.
I am a female gamer. I have been pretty much since I could walk and talk. Unlike most people I didn't start with console gaming but rather with computer games; my dad has been very into programming since I was little so he shared his interests with his kids. I could go into the whole backstory about what games I started out with, what genres I played and what are my faves etc., but that's not the point here. I'm just here to say that I've been a gamer my entire life and I feel no more special about it than anyone else because I happen to be differently-gendered to the majority of gamers.
I'm not any different from any of you. I have poor hygeine and eating habits and sit infront of the computer all day every day with a hunch in my back and my hand forming a raptor claw position over my $10 mouse clicking away at whatever I might be doing in a game or just surfing the web. My hair has split ends and I let my nails get long and I've worn makeup maybe three times in my whole life. I get pimples and occaisionally my nose runs and I cough and sneeze like anyone else. I'm human, I'm not more special or different from any of you because I happened to be born without a Y chromosome. I have a whole family of gamers and had I been born a guy I would've turned out probably exactly the same. For a large part of the people that call themselves nerds I share the same lifestyle simply because I always have. Really, I am absolutely nothing special, and the only way you'd know that I was a girl online was because I just told you so. Ohyeah, and I poop too.
Since I am not special or different from the nerd population in any way, as just established, I have no desire to be treated like I'm special or different in any way. Anytime I am it's a put off and oftentimes ruins my ability to do what I enjoy, which is gaming and watching gaming streams. I'm not here to be pretty or put on a pedestal or garner support from drooling fanboys. I'm not a model, I'm not interested in that lifestyle in any way. I was never the popular girl in school, I mostly kept to myself and I'm the same as an adult, I'm very introverted. I'm here because, unsurprisingly enough, this is the stuff that interests me. I'm here because I love videogames, I love Starcraft and I love watching Day9 and the pro tournaments. I'm here because this is the natural progression to my interests that I've always had.
On April 09 2012 20:48 Zandar wrote: Kpop is even worse. Those girls are all selected purely for looks. All the same hight and sizes. It doesn't even matter if they can sing, they can just moderate their voices.
Although I have responded already, I will add something I just realized. Since this is a blog about sexism etc. I don't care what you call it, and you're taking the side with women... don't you find it just a little inappropriate to go ahead and say something like this? I mean there are actually good and awesome singers in KPOP, at least in my opinion.
Consider this performance by IU. And I'm not saying she's a briliant singer or anything, I hardly know anything about the matter, but still. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6gJqgXsSuM
She's a hardworking singer and she had it rough in the beginnings (actually partly because of her looks since she was chubby back then).
And then someone (you) comes along and says all Kpop girls are rubbish singers that only got to where they are thanks to their looks. Doesn't that strike you as ironic? All that is needed here is to have respect for other people and you just proved you can be as ignorant as the people you're "attacking" in OP.
I'm not saying this to make you look like a hypocrite, but because if you filter out trolling, this ignorance is IMO the key thing that's causing all this mess and that's something we should all work on (me included). Don't judge people or their work if you don't know the whole story and even then, don't ever throw everyone in the same bag. I think that's the core of the problem here.
Stratos has a point. Ignorance is the cause of many things. I can't really add something to his post. It's pretty accurate. I think ignorance coupled with a social image situations is what causes this problem.
If all the girls on the stage of e-sports would be a little chubby and overall a little less pretty. You would have many more people strengthening the stereotype of gaming. "Look! The only girls that play games are chubbier! There are no "NORMAL" girls in gaming". In that sense, it is only good that there are beautiful girls to deny that stereotyping and give e-sports a little better chance to go mainstream. But denying all the other girls, who are definitely out there in far greater numbers than post people realize, is not OK. (and of course sexism is NOT OK at all)
I don't write much at forums and such, mostly because I am horribly bad at expressing myself. This thread tho is filled with people who actually discuss the subject and not just throw away some one-liners so I will try to write my view of a part of the matter.
When I was younger and started to play games online I was insecure and depressed and wanted attention. I didn't start play games or games online to get attention but I noticed that I could get it when I got out there. I'm not proud of it, never were but I didn't understand what I was doing to myself and other gamers until years later.
Every day all of us, male and females, are told by commercials and society that we should look good, if we don't then we arnt worth as much as the beautiful people. So of course there will be girls who are "attention-whores". They are insecure and sees an opportunity to get the attention that they can't get irl. Most of these girls are young, just like I was, and they will probably grow out of it.
I have joined a group on facebook that is for women who likes to play games and wants to get to know other female gamers. Groups like this have made me dare to get out of hiding, I don't pretend I'm a guy anymore but instead I am honest with being female and I feel better about myself. No one should have to hide that they are a women just because of ignorant people who has nothing better to do then to be mean to other people. But sadly it is sometimes hard to not get depressed and feel bashed on even tho you know they are wrong.
Ah well, I hope you guys get my point. Thanks for starting an awesome discussion!
I am: White female. 29 Years old. Atheist. Normal weight. Swedish Middle class (I guess?).
On April 10 2012 00:53 NoMicro wrote: I've now 20 year old male, I started playing PC games around the time I was 8. I started getting into clans around 12. Since then, I've been in a countless number of them. Some, with horrible communities of sexist, annoying, pricks. Others, had nice communities of helping hands.
Being a male, I haven't experienced the sexism first hand to the same extent as the women I've played with over the years. (However,some socially awkward girl gamers are just as filthy, dirty, and disgusting as their counterparts.) Some girls, ENABLE. They're horrible. They giggle when a off-handed comment comes their way. They need to say "No" and be more direct.
These are males that are probably 14-19 years old, full of hormones and socially inexperienced.This is a ticking time bomb and I'm sorry that the females are the trigger that sets them off.
You can set them straight most the time. Be confident, know what you want, and say it. You're looking to game, have fun, and be in a supportive community. Not to be gawked at, teased, flirted with, and abused. If that doesn't happen, leave the community. Find another one.
DON'T innocently flirt. These are deprived males. Any signal, any slight glimpse, flicker, or tell that you may have an "interest" in the guy on more than a platonic level. Don't do it. Make sure the guy is stable enough to understand it's just an innocent joke.
Be a bit more blunt for a while. Take up a Head-Bitch mentality for a while and lighten up over time. Opening to the ones with sense. Keep hold of the people with sense.
Basically, don't join clans or communities with the intention of staying, give it a couple of weeks as a trial and see how evolved the community is.
What the girl looks like, how she dresses, the attention she wants, is all irrelevant. Their is nothing wrong with being an attention-whore if you want to be one. Not my style, i'd probably just ignore you.
These guys. don't have enough experience with the opposite gender to know what they LIKE, and what the DON'T LIKE, so they see BOOBS and get all excited because you having boobs means they must like you. Show off a bit of that horrible, vain, personality, be a head-bitch and make them learn their lesson instead.
The biggest tool you have available is that their is a countless number of gaming communities. You don't like one, hop to another. Let them learn, or not. They'll just be stuck in a sausage fest of a Ventrilo.
Final note: Keep tabs with cool people who you know just want platonic, chill times. Cut ties off with the other ones ASAP before they get any ideas. Oh, and if you're feeling evil and play item-based games just manipulate the shit out of the guys until they learn that some girls are bitches too. =P
TL;DR: Just like Real-Life you get a few close-knit friends you trust and say FU to everyone else. Don't settle for pervs, let them learn. Get good with the mute button. BE UPFRONT. You're here to play GAMES, not with their tiny dicks.
And then you could also go on about the enabling girls. They flirt, send pictures, and generally act like the girl who drank 3 too many, took a couple of triple-stacked MDMAs and do anything you tell them to. Socially awkward nerd girls are part of the problem. If the only girl a guy talks to regularly is some socially inexperienced, needy, low confidence trick , that does these things, it's going to give him unrealistic expectations of all women. You sane women have to deal with breaking down these conceptions the socially awkward side of your gender has also helped forge.
Shifting blame to the victims much? Not only have you created your own ideas of how women "should" act, and reasoned that not following such expectations is the reason why they are marginalized, but you even go on to explain exactly how we should act, as if we're clueless in how we contribute to our own marginalization. I don't think you're even aware of how arrogant and privileged you come off as. I'd love to have this conversation face to face, lol. (Your advice is shit, by the way. Do you know what kind of reaction a girl will get if she announces her presence in a new community by saying "I'm here to game! Don't hit on me!" hint: we'll be reading blog posts about attention whoring GAMER GURLLZZ twice as often)
"These are deprived males." Do men not find this insulting? You suggest that they are completely incapable of controlling their own behavior, emotions, and reactions, (and you even imply that they cannot even understand their own emotions), and thus women should behave a certain way to make it easier on them? Your future posts are somewhat redeeming, but your main point still boils down to "men are this way, so women should act that way to make it easy on them," assuming that men are the constant which cannot or should not be expected to change, and that women need to modify themselves to "fit" into their world.
For one, I'd love to have this conversation face-to-face as well. I'd learn something. That's why I put my opinions up here. They get broken down and I come out with stronger, more solid opinions. Your responses only help. Laughing at my thoughts is kind of an asshole thing to do though.
That said, my post is about treating people with the same amount of respect no matter the gender. Some girls love making off handed sexual comments, and some males get creeped out at the mention of a penis. I wasn't trying to say girls have to "play by guy rules". I was trying to say, -everyone- both genders need to realize that some people have differing personalities and that you should respect that difference. If you're asked to stop talking to someone, you do that. You don't continue making lewd comments.
An asshole will be an asshole no matter the gender they're talking to. I did kind of suggest the men were incapable of thought, that's my fault. I'll make it clear that men should not be excused from comments. They should have to deal with what they say.
Girls can fit right into our community very nicely as they are. Don't change yourself, be snarky, be optimistic, prissy, preppy, pessimistic whatever you are. Bring your personal light to the table for the community to see. T
Oh, and it's not like you'd go into the chat and be all "Stop HITTING on ME!" you just politely turn them down, like I've had done to me several times at the bar. He doesn't get the hint? Mute. I'm not sure what else you can do after this if he keeps persisting. After that, it's not your fault and it's a lack of understanding, and respect on his part.
I think I've made light of the circumstances that women encounter, I know it can be extremely difficult. Especially when 8 of 10 members of a guild you're in is great. You shouldn't have to set up and sail ship because of one, or two disrespectful individuals. They should learn proper conduct.
Sexism, intolerance, lack of respect. Those are all problems we face as a society at large, and not just in gaming. I hope we can get a positive trend going on in the gaming community that can extend even further outward.
And I learned I need to practice on getting my point across in a more direct manner, yay!
When I played World of Warcraft there were about 10 women in a server of 200-500 (I would say about 200 spoke spanish exclusively so we can ignore them.) There were only 3 that were really hot, the rest were average and everyone got equal respect. The people who were douches based on sex alone were basically outlawed from the guild system, consisting of 4 guilds basically. edit, english speaking. There were plenty 'taco guilds'
As far as I know there was no hard feelings between men and women on that server unless you brought up nasty memories for the girls. There were 2 rape victims, and 1 evisceration victim on that server I think.
I don't really feel like I'm contributing to the discussion, but hey this is my experience. I don't think I've played with a single woman in starcraft.
NoMicro wrote: Sexism, intolerance, lack of respect. Those are all problems we face as a society at large, and not just in gaming. I hope we can get a positive trend going on in the gaming community that can extend even further outward.
NoMicro wrote: Socially awkward nerd girls are part of the problem. If the only girl a guy talks to regularly is some socially inexperienced, needy, low confidence trick , that does these things, it's going to give him unrealistic expectations of all women. You sane women have to deal with breaking down these conceptions the socially awkward side of your gender has also helped forge.
If you want to stop prejudice, you need to change the way people think. You cannot simply make every single person on the planet the same so that everyone's expectations always meet reality.
If we can learn to judge every single person as an individual and never assume anything just because we've seen at someone else with the same gender/race/face/voice/hairstyle/boobs/car, then there is no "problem" with people being different in a community.
The only problem with this approach is that if you truly go by it, you will most likely find yourself unable to really hate on anyone, which is something we as humans apparently deeply desire to do.
NoMicro wrote: Sexism, intolerance, lack of respect. Those are all problems we face as a society at large, and not just in gaming. I hope we can get a positive trend going on in the gaming community that can extend even further outward.
NoMicro wrote: Socially awkward nerd girls are part of the problem. If the only girl a guy talks to regularly is some socially inexperienced, needy, low confidence trick , that does these things, it's going to give him unrealistic expectations of all women. You sane women have to deal with breaking down these conceptions the socially awkward side of your gender has also helped forge.
If you want to stop prejudice, you need to change the way people think. You cannot simply make every single person on the planet the same so that everyone's expectations always meet reality.
If we can learn to judge every single person as an individual and never assume anything just because we've seen at someone else with the same gender/race/face/voice/hairstyle/boobs/car, then there is no "problem" with people being different in a community.
The only problem with this approach is that if you truly go by it, you will most likely find yourself unable to really hate on anyone, which is something we as humans apparently deeply desire to do.
I'm getting a bit self-conscious with how much my post is being picked apart, but I think it's really helping to bring out some of the subtleties in this problem. I've long since realized everyone is different. From having 2 Otaku sisters, and a younger brother that cosplays once a year while I'm more a sports minded individual. The only difference I can see of women is that I'm innately attracted to them to an extent. (Putting aside physical differences)
That said, some people I don't get along with. I don't like how they act, their morals, or just don't find them all too interesting.
It's fine to not like somebody because you don't like them. Don't have to talk to them. It's not fine to treat them differently because of their gender.
Not sure why girls on the internet wouldn't want guys to hit on them? It's not really any different than in real life. If you're an average looking girl guys are going to treat you differently in a flirtatious manner.
from my experience hanging out with nerds anime clubs/conventions/etc. nerds are VERY sexist and judgmental of girls looks, they only have low standards when it comes to girls they know irl
Few sad points. Same effect happens anywhere when you put immature, sexually frustrated men with a very low women proportions. Thing will only change when the repartition will be closer to 50% or the age average get higher as well as internet anonymous isnt here to cover your face and behaviour.
On April 10 2012 06:19 Peachpuff wrote: I don't write much at forums and such, mostly because I am horribly bad at expressing myself. This thread tho is filled with people who actually discuss the subject and not just throw away some one-liners so I will try to write my view of a part of the matter.
When I was younger and started to play games online I was insecure and depressed and wanted attention. I didn't start play games or games online to get attention but I noticed that I could get it when I got out there. I'm not proud of it, never were but I didn't understand what I was doing to myself and other gamers until years later.
Every day all of us, male and females, are told by commercials and society that we should look good, if we don't then we arnt worth as much as the beautiful people. So of course there will be girls who are "attention-whores". They are insecure and sees an opportunity to get the attention that they can't get irl. Most of these girls are young, just like I was, and they will probably grow out of it.
I have joined a group on facebook that is for women who likes to play games and wants to get to know other female gamers. Groups like this have made me dare to get out of hiding, I don't pretend I'm a guy anymore but instead I am honest with being female and I feel better about myself. No one should have to hide that they are a women just because of ignorant people who has nothing better to do then to be mean to other people. But sadly it is sometimes hard to not get depressed and feel bashed on even tho you know they are wrong.
Ah well, I hope you guys get my point. Thanks for starting an awesome discussion!
I am: White female. 29 Years old. Atheist. Normal weight. Swedish Middle class (I guess?).
welcome! (although obv you've been here almost a year)
If you have the desire to contribute in any way then you are helping build TL, I hope you continue to contribute to any discussion you're interested in. It occurs to me that part of guys trouble with girls online is that we don't see enough contribution from girls like yourselves to the general discussion. Not to blame obviously, it is a well known fact that groups of guys will be less crude and juvenile when there are girls around. Perhaps on a forum where there was known to be a higher proportion of vocally female posters guys would clean up their act? I dare to hope for the sake of my gender! Of course there will be immaturity, but PM Haemonculus and the hammer-cav will be there in no time i'm sure and TL will be a better place for that.
(meant as encouragement to continue coming "out of hiding" not sure how well it worked)
I am: White male 22 Christian Sporty English Middle class
On April 10 2012 07:29 Xyik wrote: Not sure why girls on the internet wouldn't want guys to hit on them? It's not really any different than in real life. If you're an average looking girl guys are going to treat you differently in a flirtatious manner.
But I have no interest in anyone hitting on me, irl or online.
On April 10 2012 08:46 Haemonculus wrote: Haha yeah I did the mini-bio thing sarcastically in reply to chargelot and it turned into quite the trend. My bad.
I like it tho. Makes it feel more personal in a sort of way!
On April 10 2012 07:29 Xyik wrote: Not sure why girls on the internet wouldn't want guys to hit on them? It's not really any different than in real life. If you're an average looking girl guys are going to treat you differently in a flirtatious manner.
But I have no interest in anyone hitting on me, irl or online.
tell people you're a dude... that eliminates like 80% of it
On April 10 2012 07:29 Xyik wrote: Not sure why girls on the internet wouldn't want guys to hit on them? It's not really any different than in real life. If you're an average looking girl guys are going to treat you differently in a flirtatious manner.
But I have no interest in anyone hitting on me, irl or online.
tell people you're a dude... that eliminates like 80% of it
also
24/M/USA(Columbus!) sup ladies and laddies
and we've come full circle back to 'girls should just fit in'
On April 10 2012 07:29 Xyik wrote: Not sure why girls on the internet wouldn't want guys to hit on them? It's not really any different than in real life. If you're an average looking girl guys are going to treat you differently in a flirtatious manner.
Because how's this irl scenario:
You (I am assuming you're a male, but you can just flip it if not, it applies to anyone) are somewhere with very few males for whatever reason, and want to make friends. You start approaching the women around you, and are met with a lot of 'interest'. This is very flattering at the start, but you don't actually want to date any of them (or maybe there is one you are interested in, but not ALL of them). You hope that they will be friends with you anyway, but when they are rejected, the great majority of them get angry and don't want to talk to you anymore, or ignore your rejection and continue to hit on you to the point of harassment. That gets pretty lonely after a while, js. :/
On April 10 2012 05:17 Haemonculus wrote:And Nokarot, t.t; + Show Spoiler +
On April 09 2012 23:14 Nokarot wrote: I tend to think that sexism is kind of a shitty thing in general and try not to participate in it at all, but there is something I have to say that not everybody will be happy with.
Stereotypes exist for a reason. They are ignorant, offensive, and very often false, but they exist and were invented because people see relations in them. I'm not going to sit here and tell you that there is any scientific evidence to suggest black people are genetically predisposed to like fried chicken, but I will say that some (read: not all) girl gamers who've taken the spotlight have acted in a way that create these stereotypes.
It's a male-dominated vocal community (which is to say, more gamer girls exist than forums/etc would suggest.) When companies like Ubisoft hire the Frag Dolls to be their gamer marketing team, they reinforce the stereotype by using sex to get attention. Jessica Chobot gained her initial fame by licking a playstation controller (as opposed to her job, which she legitimately worked hard to gain.) G4 hosts are worshipped for posing in Maxim/Playboy. The PMS Clan, for years, sponsored casual players to travel to tournaments (CPL, old school MLG etc. I'm not talking about Flo) where they often secured last place, and then went on to do interviews about how cool they are for being girl gamers, in a clan that literally has a "no boys allowed" sticker on it. At one point, their brother clan, H2O, were also referred to as "Water boys" and PMS meant "Psychotic Man Slayers," (now "Pandoras Mighty Soldiers") which, needless to say, was equally sexist on their part.
It's unfortunate that sexism exists, but it doesn't only exist because guys are jerks. It also exists because certain individuals in the industry made it so. No, lulsusie wearing a bathing suit in a hot tub isn't the definition of "attention whore," I agree. However, in more extreme examples, there's certainly some connection.
I'm not justifying sexism by saying this, merely stating why it exists. I'm a guy and I think it's pretty disgraceful the way things are. In my years on the internet, I've made plenty of female friends whom don't fit the stereotypes whatsoever. It's unfortunate that they're subject to sexism despite that, and I wish there was something to do about it. However, I think those girls who are in the spotlight need to set a better example just as much as guys have to stop being assholes before anything can change.
People like Anna, Seltzer and Lilsusie are good examples of females in the spotlight who I think are helping combat sexism, by doing what they do without labeling themselves as a gender. Unfortunately, this problem has existed long before they came along, and it's going to be a bit uphill struggle for anything to change.
As for why they dress pretty on stage, while I doubt IPL is picking their dresses, I imagine they did have some kind of dress code. Smix rolled in to MLG with jeans and T-Shirt, after all, unlike IPL. I wouldn't necessarily blame the girls on that, and even if they did choose to dress up, that's their own call.
I'm no fan of the fragdolls or PMS clan but I'd be hesitant to say that they're the reason people assume or expect me to play a healer/support in team games. Sure there are women, (even here on TL) who seemingly go to great lengths to sexualize themselves, and while they're certainly not helping the image of the female gamer, it just seems silly to imply that they're the *cause* of sexism in gaming. I think what LilSusie and Smix do is fantastic for the community and the image of women in gaming.
Regardless, this is another faulty argument used often to not necessarily justify, but explain away sexism/racism or any other type of prejudice/discrimination. ("I have nothing wrong with gays, but why do some of them have to be so flamboyant?" as if the actions of those few are reason to be suspect of all gays) Claiming that those in the public eye are to blame by setting a bad example is not helpful. You've created a standard or set of behaviors that you expect "proper" (for lack of a better term) women to adhere to. You bring up examples of some girls not conforming to this standard as a reason that the rest may not be taken seriously.
q_q the only one who responded to my wall of text. At least someone read it.
I'm not saying that those in the spotlight "cause" the sexism in gaming, I'm saying that some of them reinforce it. They aren't to blame, but they play their part. I cherry picked my examples for a reason. It's obvious that only a minority of those in the spotlight have a negative impact on the whole, but when they represent a nonvocal majority of women, it's easy to see how prejudice continues to exist.
Does that justify it? No way, guys can be sex-hungry, stereotypical jerks, but so long as something like Fragdolls exists, it's pretty safe to say they're doing more harm than good when it comes to sexism. Are they to blame? No. If I'd blame anything, its a combination of internet anonymity, mob mentality and bandwagoning of those men who are too uneducated or hateful to see what they're doing, not to mention all the sexism that still exists outside of gaming. However, when the mob begs for sexualizing women gamers and certain organizations respond by performing that service for the sake of sales, publicity, etc, it reinforces it nonetheless.
That said, I'm well aware that Ubisoft is a male-dominated company who are paying the Frag Dolls' bills. As much as I believe women have to take a stand to get rid of sexism, so do men. "Sex sells" and businesses are sure to take advantage of that when all they're doing is contributing to the problem. Unfortunately, so long as money is involved, I don't foresee that changing. It's shitty, but I think the only real hope for getting rid of sexism is for more women to set a better example, because men aren't going to grow up any time soon. I wish they would, though.
On April 10 2012 04:51 kerpal wrote: @babytoss i think the dress/image thing (particularly in formalwear etc) is a societal issue rather than a gaming one. Not to say we shouldn't and can't try to address the issue that women are valued primarily for their appearance, but that is something that is wrong with the world, not specific to the SC2 community.
If we could get TL to the place where Anna's wardrobe is our biggest sexism concern i think we'd have made a HUGE change to this community.
I think it's moving forward (or I hope it is) through all the little problems. Things like the kellymilkies stuff, and now scarlett's arrival on the scene are opening alot of people's eyes to issues like casual sexism. I hope that for every person banned others are understanding how unacceptable behaviour like that is.
The 'issue' with Scarlett - I was truly apalled by show of immaturity of so many people. Who are we to judge others...
Who are we to judge others indeed. I actually saw your twitter during the first day of IPL 4 and it looked like you were doing plenty of judging of the female hosts to me and not a lot of what you said was nice.
There's no denying that a lot of dudes on the net are creepy and sexist to female gamers. I don't know how you change that because it's a maturity issue and a lot of gamers aren't mature. At least when it comes to online interaction as people act differently online, than in person due to the anonymity.
Guys can be bad online, but I also think female gamers can be just as bad or worse than males, but in their cases it doesn't result in sexism to other female gamers, but instead just straight up hate, calling female hosts attention whores and stuff.
There's no doubt in addition to anna's looks being associated with eg helps with opportunities, but that's life in general and not just a gaming issue. It's sometimes who you know and not what you know that gets you jobs.
Megumixbear has streamed for over a year and actually plays the game a lot and she still got hate, so it's a no win situation. You can be like anna and not play much and people hate and say she doesn't play the game or you can be like megumi and play the game a lot and still get hate.
Megumi has streamed for 26 hours or so straight before and not one of those gimmick 24 charity streams, but just streamed that long because she felt like it. She's put a lot of her own money into running her bear cups and sending out bearpacks around the world, which isn't cheap considering international shipping rates. She's put in a lot of time and effort into the game and has worked for the opportunities shes gets herself because she has no company behind her like Anna does. Does being good looking help? Of course it does, but it also shouldn't overshadow all she's done and she definitely shouldn't be called an attention whore because she is far from that.
I thought she did a fine job at IPL 4 and she was the first female interviewer that I can recall that actually asked gameplay related questions instead of just the usual how do you feel about winning or how far do you think you'll go in the tournament. She got some good answers out of mkp and others relating to the games they just played and their decision making. It was nice to see some people acknowledge that and give her credit, but was also disheartening to see some people ignore that or try to discredit her by saying she was getting fed questions to her through her ear piece.
While it's easier for good looking women to get opportunities in the scene, it's also harder to earn peoples respect because they are women. People are always questioning why the women are there and constantly trying to scrutinize them in order to find flaws.
People like anna, rachel and megumi are involved in the scene at least and aren't just some random booth babes hired to do hosting. Don't blame them for wearing dresses when that's the dress code given to them by IPL. I don't really have a problem with women hosting events and hope to see more in the future.
I've often heard people say 2GD is one of the best hosts. I'm not going to dispute that because he does know how to work a crowd. However, I've also noticed a lot of his humour stems from making sexual overtones or jokes with his female co-hosts like I saw during one tourney. Now, I ask myself, why do people pretend to be against sexism, while at the same time applaud 2GD for making sexual jokes all the time while hosting? It gets laughs out of people, but aren't the most mature jokes around, but the gaming community likes those kinds of jokes I guess.
@Canucklehead - Like I said, I am simply frustrated with the stereotype around women I get to see. Trying to excuse it with the fact, that it's how it goes in life (regarding on who you know and how you look like) is weak and I would've think that we are better than that. What I said on twitter was my pure frustration; and also note, that my twitter is a way to vent without need to suger coat things and I write there even when upset; I won't be nice about things, if I don't like them. Again, I'll say what I think, because I am not out there to appease crowds, I am out there to do what I enjoy and share it with those who enjoy it as well. Even if it means saying nasty things born out of pure frustration; sometimes being nice about things just doesn't get the message across.
It's a fact, that some women do use their looks to gain attention and whatever opportunities and it's also a fact, that this is exactly, what causes people to have no respect for 'female' gamers. (Putting into markers, as for me, there's no such thing as 'male' or 'female' gamer, we all are just gamers, period.)
And yes, the flaws are on both female and male side; there's no point in singling out one or the another. But, again, excusing some 'trends' as flaws of society is weak, lame and we should be better than that. All I really have to say about it, as I'd be repeating myself in what I've already said in this thread.
I came here looking for an interesting discussion, but mostly this labelling of women (specifically the women in the SC2 community) as "attractive" or "unattractive" is making me uncomfortable. To be fair, it bothers me when fans call male progamers ugly or fat and use that as either some sort of standard for their gameplay or subvert it in the same way (I believe hon_Sin is still best known as "the fat kid who beat Bisu that one game"), but it seems to happen a lot less, especially considering the proportion of men to women in this community.
On the plus side - I'm pleasantly surprised at the number of women posters here with gender neutral handles. In an environment where first judgements are often made on your username (in the same way that first judgements in face-to-face interactions are made based on a cursory assessment of your physical appearance, including your gender), indicating your gender in your handle can make a huge difference to how you are received. There also seems to be this weird tendency to call girls by their first names once you know them - so, Anna, Susie, Rachel, as opposed to Sean, Nick and Dan.
I'm trying to post this in a mature way instead of an asshole type of way. I'm 28 so take it as from that view point rather than a teenager.
I think society is changing big time and gaming is becoming more and more acceptable compared to what it used to be. Jocks during my time wouldn't be caught dead playing ANY type of video game but nowadays no one has problem saying they play games like Call of Duty, Madden, or Halo. It's when you mention games like WoW or Starcraft, that you're back into that nerdy category. Now onto females..
If a female is naturally beautiful, she will have so many friends and opportunities that prevent her from even getting into video games. Then when they are so popular, they will also start looking down on people who play video games. That's why the majority of females(and males) that are gamers, are average to ugly looking, or socially inept.
So when people like Anna, Rachel, Smix(omgloveher), are starting to take over main stage with interviews and stuff. They are getting tons of hate because now these hot girls are invading OUR culture. Hopefully the majority of the community learns to respect them for their passion of e-sports but when IPL throws them up on stage wearing short dresses to try and sell us sex, it's gonna always be a fighting situtation.
I think in the end, it's life. Attractive PEOPLE always have the edge over average looking people. Professional starcraft is a business. For interview type jobs, they just need an attractive female who is known by the community and has basic knowledge of gaming. Sometimes no knowledge as Lindsay Sporer demonstrated and actually was pretty well recieved.
But for a professional gamer type side, if a girl steps up with her skills, it doesn't matter what she looks like. I don't think Scarlet is the true savior for this(since her controversy) but hopefully a girl will come around and win a major title.
tldr; i have no idea what i wrote but in about 10 years, I think gaming will be widely more acceptable in society and a lot more female gamers.
On April 10 2012 10:55 BabyToss! wrote: @Canucklehead - Like I said, I am simply frustrated with the stereotype around women I get to see. Trying to excuse it with the fact, that it's how it goes in life (regarding on who you know and how you look like) is weak and I would've think that we are better than that. What I said on twitter was my pure frustration; and also note, that my twitter is a way to vent without need to suger coat things and I write there even when upset; I won't be nice about things, if I don't like them. Again, I'll say what I think, because I am not out there to appease crowds, I am out there to do what I enjoy and share it with those who enjoy it as well. Even if it means saying nasty things born out of pure frustration; sometimes being nice about things just doesn't get the message across.
It's a fact, that some women do use their looks to gain attention and whatever opportunities and it's also a fact, that this is exactly, what causes people to have no respect for 'female' gamers. (Putting into markers, as for me, there's no such thing as 'male' or 'female' gamer, we all are just gamers, period.)
And yes, the flaws are on both female and male side; there's no point in singling out one or the another. But, again, excusing some 'trends' as flaws of society is weak, lame and we should be better than that. All I really have to say about it, as I'd be repeating myself in what I've already said in this thread.
Well, I'm not going to say going with social trends is necessarily right because the status quo will never change without people willing to change it. However, I was more being realistic about the situation. Expecting the gaming scene to change these things is idealistic and unrealistic. In a utopia world, sure your way of thinking is correct, but it's not something I see happening any time soon. Sure you can call it weak and lame, but I just call it being realistic.
Also, there's no denying some women use their looks solely to get ahead, but I think you like to paint all women with the same brush just because they wear a dress on stage and you can't look past the dress to see the women wearing it. From your posts, you do admittedly have an anti dress bias, which in turn results in a negative opinion of women who wear dresses.
On April 10 2012 11:31 Canucklehead wrote: Well, I'm not going to say going with social trends is necessarily right because the status quo will never change without people willing to change it. However, I was more being realistic about the situation. Expecting the gaming scene to change these things is idealistic and unrealistic. In a utopia world, sure your way of thinking is correct, but it's not something I see happening any time soon. Sure you can call it weak and lame, but I just call it being realistic.
Also, there's no denying some women use their looks solely to get ahead, but I think you like to paint all women with the same brush just because they wear a dress on stage and you can't look past the dress to see the women wearing it. From your posts, you do admittedly have an anti dress bias, which in turn results in a negative opinion of women who wear dresses.
And that is exactly the problem - people accepting 'trends' as 'reality', instead of trying to make a difference. Yes, making a difference is much more effort and it's gonna get you haters, but in my eyes, that's far more worth of doing, than just dismissing everything as 'normal' or 'realistic'.
I personally would not wear a dress if they paid me to do it, as it's not my style, yes. However, my real beef with all this dress issue is, that it's portraied as something common and something all women should adhere to, to be candy-eyes for male audience during a StarCraft 2 tournament or any big occassion, really. I want to see diversity and, well, more interested in content, than seeing some half-naked someone; no offence. These events need to stop sending to 'mortal' women a message, that they need to be pretty in order to even have shot at anything. That is all I am trying to say; regardless of if I hate dresses or not.
On April 10 2012 11:30 Alaz wrote: If a female is naturally beautiful, she will have so many friends and opportunities that prevent her from even getting into video games. Then when they are so popular, they will also start looking down on people who play video games. That's why the majority of females(and males) that are gamers, are average to ugly looking, or socially inept.
So when people like Anna, Rachel, Smix(omgloveher), are starting to take over main stage with interviews and stuff. They are getting tons of hate because now these hot girls are invading OUR culture. Hopefully the majority of the community learns to respect them for their passion of e-sports but when IPL throws them up on stage wearing short dresses to try and sell us sex, it's gonna always be a fighting situtation.
I find this hypothesis disturbing, not least for its assumption that video games are something people do only when they have no other opportunities.
On April 10 2012 11:31 Canucklehead wrote: Well, I'm not going to say going with social trends is necessarily right because the status quo will never change without people willing to change it. However, I was more being realistic about the situation. Expecting the gaming scene to change these things is idealistic and unrealistic. In a utopia world, sure your way of thinking is correct, but it's not something I see happening any time soon. Sure you can call it weak and lame, but I just call it being realistic.
Also, there's no denying some women use their looks solely to get ahead, but I think you like to paint all women with the same brush just because they wear a dress on stage and you can't look past the dress to see the women wearing it. From your posts, you do admittedly have an anti dress bias, which in turn results in a negative opinion of women who wear dresses.
And that is exactly the problem - people accepting 'trends' as 'reality', instead of trying to make a difference. Yes, making a difference is much more effort and it's gonna get you haters, but in my eyes, that's far more worth of doing, than just dismissing everything as 'normal' or 'realistic'.
Well, I think trying to make a difference is a noble cause, but I think you are misconstruing that as the reason for attracting haters. It's about the delivery of the message to try to change things, which attracted hate. You can be respectful about it or not be respectful about it like you were on twitter. The message wasn't the reason for the hate. The way the message was delivered was the reason for it.
On April 10 2012 11:56 Canucklehead wrote: Well, I think trying to make a difference is a noble cause, but I think you are misconstruing that as the reason for attracting haters. It's about the delivery of the message to try to change things, which attracted hate. You can be respectful about it or not be respectful about it like you were on twitter. The message wasn't the reason for the hate. The way the message was delivered was the reason for it.
The thing is, everyone who goes 'against the flow' or 'standards' gets haters, no matter if you are nice about stuff or not. That is an undeniable truth, just look through the history, for some extreme examples, where people were burnt at stake, executed, etc. Today's society is sadly not much different, except you just can't burn someone because they have different opinion. People are too content with stereotypes and concerned with appeasing the society and its 'norms'. People are often concerned for their own popularity, rather than actually trying to make a difference.
You can keep bringing up my Twitter anger, sure, I don't really care. What I wrote was born out of long term frustration with the situation; and some of it was inappropriate, but I still believe that all the organizers should stop feeding us with candy-eyes women and would offer us some sort of diversity and more content instead; without all this 'let's please the average teenager male' kind of message. I'm not singling out anyone; it's what I see in general and yes, tired of it; both as a gamer and spectator.
Besides the twitter thing which people seem pretty hung up on XD:
I am sort of disturbed by the number of posts that seem to indicate many of the women who are public figures differ drastically in appearance from a 'real' or 'average' female gamer. Do people actually buy into the stereotype that all women who play this game are overweight, pimply, greasy, and ugly? I'm pretty sure the female gaming population is similar to the males. A few who fit the stereotype, most who are just normal looking people--not ravishingly hot, but not bad looking by any means-- some pretty people, and a few exceptionally attractive ones. I understand that on stage wearing little cocktail dresses they look a lot different than most of us at home, but when you ignore the clothes and just look at the girls, I find them pretty relateable (not like movie-stars or anything who sometimes spend hundreds of thousands a year on their appearance).
I honestly don't think any of the female presenters represent a problem-- the male presenters were in suits, and to not have the women dress up in some way would be very out of place. There is no problem with choosing dresses either, since when people get dressed up they want to look and feel their best, and many women prefer a dress. For me the problem was the lack of other kinds of women; there is great diversity in the males represented there (because there are so many of them, lol), but so few women, and almost all the ones we see are in that formal role.
On April 10 2012 16:17 RedJustice wrote: Besides the twitter thing which people seem pretty hung up on XD:
I am sort of disturbed by the number of posts that seem to indicate many of the women who are public figures differ drastically in appearance from a 'real' or 'average' female gamer. Do people actually buy into the stereotype that all women who play this game are overweight, pimply, greasy, and ugly? I'm pretty sure the female gaming population is similar to the males. A few who fit the stereotype, most who are just normal looking people--not ravishingly hot, but not bad looking by any means-- some pretty people, and a few exceptionally attractive ones. I understand that on stage wearing little cocktail dresses they look a lot different than most of us at home, but when you ignore the clothes and just look at the girls, I find them pretty relateable (not like movie-stars or anything who sometimes spend hundreds of thousands a year on their appearance).
I honestly don't think any of the female presenters represent a problem-- the male presenters were in suits, and to not have the women dress up in some way would be very out of place. There is no problem with choosing dresses either, since when people get dressed up they want to look and feel their best, and many women prefer a dress. For me the problem was the lack of other kinds of women; there is great diversity in the males represented there (because there are so many of them, lol), but so few women, and almost all the ones we see are in that formal role.
I was actually thinking that myself. As much as TL is all about nerd pride and nerd chills, one of the fastest ways to rile up our community is to hear nerd stereotypes from an outside community. Anyone remember the outrage over the Halo talk show Behind the Crosshairs and our unstylish dorkyness? Heck, Kennigit was challenging them to squats or something. But do we embrace the same stereotype about gamer girls as well?
On April 10 2012 10:55 BabyToss! wrote: What I said on twitter was my pure frustration; and also note, that my twitter is a way to vent without need to suger coat things and I write there even when upset; I won't be nice about things, if I don't like them. Again, I'll say what I think, because I am not out there to appease crowds, I am out there to do what I enjoy and share it with those who enjoy it as well. Even if it means saying nasty things born out of pure frustration; sometimes being nice about things just doesn't get the message across.
That is exactly what these males are doing. To them the gaming community is a place where they can be themselves and vent their frustration and say whatever they want. Who are you to require things of others that you don't even require of yourself? Why should these males sugar coat things just to appease female gamers? Isn't it their right to choose their friends and act however they feel? On the other hand it isn't a right to get welcomed wherever you go.
Of course it would be better if everyone were respectful of each other on the internet but that will never happen just as how bullying at school will never stop. Why are girls more targeted than guys then? Because friendship is a lot more complicated over the sex boundaries. Some can handle that but many can't. These people still play games though and there is nothing you can say or do which would remove their problems with the opposite sex, it is real and it is there. What you are basically asking is for these guys to not only get shut out from social interactions in the real world but they should also be robbed of their online respite just because you want to be a part of it. Of course you could say that as it is it isn't fair to the girls, but remember that these communities weren't built by or for girls. If you want to have the same thing then you got to build your own community instead of trying to change already existing ones.
About scantily clad girls as hostesses, I pose the question: Would you rather that there were no girls shown at all? Because there are roughly no girls as competent and experienced as the top guys in gaming.
On April 10 2012 18:10 Klockan3 wrote: That is exactly what these males are doing. To them the gaming community is a place where they can be themselves and vent their frustration and say whatever they want. Who are you to require things of others that you don't even require of yourself? Why should these males sugar coat things just to appease female gamers? Isn't it their right to choose their friends and act however they feel? On the other hand it isn't a right to get welcomed wherever you go.
Of course it would be better if everyone were respectful of each other on the internet but that will never happen just as how bullying at school will never stop. Why are girls more targeted than guys then? Because friendship is a lot more complicated over the sex boundaries. Some can handle that but many can't. These people still play games though and there is nothing you can say or do which would remove their problems with the opposite sex, it is real and it is there. What you are basically asking is for these guys to not only get shut out from social interactions in the real world but they should also be robbed of their online respite just because you want to be a part of it. Of course you could say that as it is it isn't fair to the girls, but remember that these communities weren't built by or for girls. If you want to have the same thing then you got to build your own community instead of trying to change already existing ones.
About scantily clad girls as hostesses, I pose the question: Would you rather that there were no girls shown at all? Because there are roughly no girls as competent and experienced as the top guys in gaming.
Oh, wow, this is the most narrow-minded post which was posted in last couple of pages. Again, it's so much easier to hung on what's 'normal' and 'usual', rather than try to change, and it seems that you are even okay with how things are. Can't say if serious or just trolling. Just had to bold some of your sentences, which kind of make me shake my head in disbelief.
I really hope that people get to be more open-minded than you - because you know, the difference between me and you is, that I know I can be rough around the edges, but I am also capable of reasoning and not just discarding everything, which is happening as something, which won't change, because it's oh so 'normal', and therefore, not prone to actual change. Everyone can choose - as far as I know, we all have free will, or am I mistaken? It's not about appeasing at this point, it's about common courtesy, which you seem to not believe into.
It's a paradox, that some guys want to see more women interested in StarCraft 2 and yet, when they see them, all they fill them into, is calling them names or turning them into objects of sexuality. So, really. Make up your mind already. Though, it's not like that the women will stop playing, if they enjoy the game, and we will just go back to hidding ourselves; wonder if that is what you want.
To your last question - if women are shown as mere objects and things of sexuality, then I'd rather that there would be none shown. It's sending wrong message to all 'female' gamers, that they basically have to be the same way, in order to even get anywhere in gaming industry. Like I said, I personally don't care about some candy-eye women, hell even man. I want content and StarCraft 2.
On April 10 2012 18:10 Klockan3 wrote: What you are basically asking is for these guys to not only get shut out from social interactions in the real world but they should also be robbed of their online respite just because you want to be a part of it. Of course you could say that as it is it isn't fair to the girls, but remember that these communities weren't built by or for girls. If you want to have the same thing then you got to build your own community instead of trying to change already existing ones.
I'm having some great trouble responding to this calmly to be honest, but I'll do my best. If you want to start a new gaming "community" for guys only then by all means go ahead. Apart from what you've said, which I dare to disagree with, what gives you the right to speak for the community in the first place? I don't remember giving you my vote.
On April 10 2012 18:10 Klockan3 wrote: That is exactly what these males are doing. To them the gaming community is a place where they can be themselves and vent their frustration and say whatever they want. Who are you to require things of others that you don't even require of yourself? Why should these males sugar coat things just to appease female gamers? Isn't it their right to choose their friends and act however they feel? On the other hand it isn't a right to get welcomed wherever you go.
Of course it would be better if everyone were respectful of each other on the internet but that will never happen just as how bullying at school will never stop. Why are girls more targeted than guys then? Because friendship is a lot more complicated over the sex boundaries. Some can handle that but many can't. These people still play games though and there is nothing you can say or do which would remove their problems with the opposite sex, it is real and it is there. What you are basically asking is for these guys to not only get shut out from social interactions in the real world but they should also be robbed of their online respite just because you want to be a part of it. Of course you could say that as it is it isn't fair to the girls, but remember that these communities weren't built by or for girls. If you want to have the same thing then you got to build your own community instead of trying to change already existing ones.
About scantily clad girls as hostesses, I pose the question: Would you rather that there were no girls shown at all? Because there are roughly no girls as competent and experienced as the top guys in gaming.
Oh, wow, this is the most narrow-minded post which was posted in last couple of pages.
No, I am not narrow minded. I am arguing the point which doesn't see much light here, unlike you I can see the merits of the arguments from both sides and I think that this discussion was a bit too one sided.
On April 10 2012 18:46 BabyToss! wrote: Again, it's so much easier to hung on what's 'normal' and 'usual', rather than try to change, and it seems that you are even okay with how things are. Can't say if serious or just trolling. Just had to bold some of your sentences, which kind of make me shake my head in disbelief.
I am not hung up about what is normal and usual, I am hung up about things that will never change. Utopia isn't possible. As long as romance and sex is as revered as it is today man-woman interaction will always be problematic.
On April 10 2012 18:46 BabyToss! wrote:I really hope that people get to be more open-minded than you - because you know, the difference between me and you is, that I know I can be rough around the edges, but I am also capable of reasoning and not just discarding everything, which is happening as something, which won't change, because it's oh so 'normal', and therefore, not prone to actual change. Everyone can choose - as far as I know, we all have free will, or am I mistaken? It's not about appeasing at this point, it's about common courtesy, which you seem to not believe into.
You know what I hate about arguing with girls? That the instant you are arguing against them they think that you are some kind of chauvinistic pig. I believe in common courtesy, I am one of the most respectful persons there is. The difference between me and you is exactly that, you just respect yourself and people similar to yourself, I can go beyond that and respect people who are not at all like me.
And about free will, are you saying that a shy guy could just go up and talk to women because he got free will? Note that I didn't say that it is okay for people to slander others on internet or call them names, but things like girls requiring to be treated like one of the boys by everyone they meet is plainly impossible. People will try to date her, will try to be nice and give her privileges and if they get turned down they will shy away. That will never ever change unless society's view on romantic relationships changes drastically.
Lastly, individuals got free will and can be held responsible for what they do, large groups of people don't.
On April 10 2012 18:46 BabyToss! wrote:It's a paradox, that some guys want to see more women interested in StarCraft 2 and yet, when they see them, all they fill them into, is calling them names or turning them into objects of sexuality. So, really. Make up your mind already. Though, it's not like that the women will stop playing, if they enjoy the game, and we will just go back to hidding ourselves; wonder if that is what you want.
These are not the same people, please think for a moment before you write things.
On April 10 2012 18:46 BabyToss! wrote:To your last question - if women are shown as mere objects and things of sexuality, then I'd rather that there would be none shown. It's sending wrong message to all 'female' gamers, that they basically have to be the same way, in order to even get anywhere in gaming industry. Like I said, I personally don't care about some candy-eye women, hell even man. I want content and StarCraft 2.
Why do you think that women can't think for themselves? Don't they got, oh what did you call it, free will? And yes you do care about eye-candy women, you explicitly don't want them there which means that you care.
On April 10 2012 18:10 Klockan3 wrote: What you are basically asking is for these guys to not only get shut out from social interactions in the real world but they should also be robbed of their online respite just because you want to be a part of it. Of course you could say that as it is it isn't fair to the girls, but remember that these communities weren't built by or for girls. If you want to have the same thing then you got to build your own community instead of trying to change already existing ones.
I'm having some great trouble responding to this calmly to be honest, but I'll do my best. If you want to start a new gaming "community" for guys only then by all means go ahead. Apart from what you've said, which I dare to disagree with, what gives you the right to speak for the community in the first place? I don't remember giving you my vote.
I am obviously not speaking on behalf of you or anyone else, but I didn't say that I did either. I didn't say that girls aren't welcome, I said that if girls want to get into these communities they can't expect to get treated like guys. If they have a problem with that they should create their own communities or suck it up. Guys hit on girls, nothing anyone do or say will ever change that.
@Klockan3 - no, I do not respect people, who try to dismiss everything as 'utopia' and accept things as they are, because it's, after all, how it was for millenia, so why change it, right? Some of your stuff said by you makes me want to go rough again, so I guess that I'll just stay away from even discussing with you. Because especially the last thing, where you said that the girls cannot expect to be treated like guys (which in this community equals being treated equally, without any stupid comments or being hit on) is such a bull, that I just have nothing polite to say about that. These are otherwise very civilized forums, so I'll restrain myself from saying what I really think about your opinions.
On April 10 2012 19:43 BabyToss! wrote: @Klockan3 - no, I do not respect people, who try to dismiss everything as 'utopia' and accept things as they are
Which is why we will never have a proper discussion. If you don't respect your opponent then you shouldn't argue. You will only get outraged because he/she is capable of thinking differently than you.
Edit: The point is that you haven't at all tried to tell me how you would get guys to stop hitting on girls. I argue that it is impossible. The drive to court and mate with the other sex is one of the strongest drives we have. It wont go away just because you want it to.
On April 10 2012 19:58 Klockan3 wrote: Which is why we will never have a proper discussion. If you don't respect your opponent then you shouldn't argue. You will only get outraged because he/she is capable of thinking differently than you.
Well, I'd be only repeating myself anyways, as I've already shared my bit in this topic; I am not here to convert the likes like you, I'm here to perhaps show there's something more than just accepting the 'standards' as they are, because that's how it was for who knows how long, to others, who are perhaps more receptive and willing to make a difference.
You know, with this logic, it used to be common to burn women on stake as witches, because it fit agenda of certain groups! It even used to be common for women to be a property of men. So, why don't we continue with that, right? This is very exagerrated example, yes, but I think, as an image, how absurd thinking 'let's not even try to change things, after all, it's norm' it should be enough.
On April 10 2012 19:43 BabyToss! wrote: @Klockan3 - no, I do not respect people, who try to dismiss everything as 'utopia' and accept things as they are
Which is why we will never have a proper discussion. If you don't respect your opponent then you shouldn't argue. You will only get outraged because he/she is capable of thinking differently than you.
Edit: The point is that you haven't at all tried to tell me how you would get guys to stop hitting on girls. I argue that it is impossible. The drive to court and mate with the other sex is one of the strongest drives we have. It wont go away just because you want it to.
Please tell me you're not reducing sexual harassment down to some biological imperative.
On April 10 2012 20:21 khaydarin9 wrote: Please tell me you're not reducing sexual harassment down to some biological imperative.
I was actually wondering, if he is trying to downgrade guys to mere pile of hormones by his posts. If I were a guy, I'd be highly offended by his statements. Just saying. I know many guys, who are quite intelligent and far better than that; so no, it's not like the guys can't make their decision on how to treat a fellow gamer, who happens to be a female. Thank you for pointing it out, though.
On April 10 2012 19:58 Klockan3 wrote: Which is why we will never have a proper discussion. If you don't respect your opponent then you shouldn't argue. You will only get outraged because he/she is capable of thinking differently than you.
Well, I'd be only repeating myself anyways, as I've already shared my bit in this topic; I am not here to convert the likes like you, I'm here to perhaps show there's something more than just accepting the 'standards' as they are, because that's how it was for who knows how long, to others, who are perhaps more receptive and willing to make a difference.
You know, with this logic, it used to be common to burn women on stake as witches, because it fit agenda of certain groups! It even used to be common for women to be a property of men. So, why don't we continue with that, right? This is very exagerrated example, yes, but I think, as an image, how absurd thinking 'let's not even try to change things, after all, it's norm' it should be enough.
I know that the argument "It has always been like this" is a bad argument, but as you would have noticed if you actually read what I said I am not using that argument. And then the argument "You can't say that just because it has never been done before it isn't possible" is even more ridiculous in most of the cases. Like I could argue that we should get every elementary school kids to jump 2 meters high in gym class and meet every counterargument with "You can't say that just because it has never been done before it isn't possible".
Can you agree that males to develop romantic feelings for females? Can you agree that it is possible for this to happen online? Now, how would you stop guys from developing feelings from girls? When you answered that question please accept a professorship in psychology and the nobel peace prize. I can very easily explain how to stop people from burning women and how to rewrite the law so that women aren't property of men. But preventing guys from developing feelings for gals isn't as trivial.
On April 10 2012 19:43 BabyToss! wrote: @Klockan3 - no, I do not respect people, who try to dismiss everything as 'utopia' and accept things as they are
Which is why we will never have a proper discussion. If you don't respect your opponent then you shouldn't argue. You will only get outraged because he/she is capable of thinking differently than you.
Edit: The point is that you haven't at all tried to tell me how you would get guys to stop hitting on girls. I argue that it is impossible. The drive to court and mate with the other sex is one of the strongest drives we have. It wont go away just because you want it to.
Please tell me you're not reducing sexual harassment down to some biological imperative.
I am not talking about sexual harassment, read my post. PM'ing a girl saying you love her is not sexual harassment. Giving a girl free stuff because you hope to hook up with her is not sexual harassment.
On April 10 2012 20:21 khaydarin9 wrote: Please tell me you're not reducing sexual harassment down to some biological imperative.
I was actually wondering, if he is trying to downgrade guys to mere pile of hormones by his posts. If I were a guy, I'd be highly offended by his statements. Just saying. I know many guys, who are quite intelligent and far better than that; so no, it's not like the guys can't make their decision on how to treat a fellow gamer, who happens to be a female. Thank you for pointing it out, though.
Individuals and groups differ quite a lot psychologically. For an individual it is just a choice, for the group it isn't.
@Klockan3 For guys to be able to be friends with women, it's quite simple, really. Accept them as part of the community, as equals and then, you'll see them as fellow gamers, rather than something to hit on. You are justt rying to excuse this whole 'romantic clichee' with some sort of reasoning, when there's really none. Nobody is making you to act in this way and please don't tell me it's psychological; it's all up to what the society brainwashed into us, because it's something 'common' and 'norm' and it's up to us to either accept it (bad) or make up our own mind. (good).
I've had mostly male friends through my life and it worked for me even better than friendships with women. Just saying.
On April 10 2012 18:10 Klockan3 wrote: What you are basically asking is for these guys to not only get shut out from social interactions in the real world but they should also be robbed of their online respite just because you want to be a part of it. Of course you could say that as it is it isn't fair to the girls, but remember that these communities weren't built by or for girls. If you want to have the same thing then you got to build your own community instead of trying to change already existing ones.
I'm having some great trouble responding to this calmly to be honest, but I'll do my best. If you want to start a new gaming "community" for guys only then by all means go ahead. Apart from what you've said, which I dare to disagree with, what gives you the right to speak for the community in the first place? I don't remember giving you my vote.
I am obviously not speaking on behalf of you or anyone else, but I didn't say that I did either. I didn't say that girls aren't welcome, I said that if girls want to get into these communities they can't expect to get treated like guys. If they have a problem with that they should create their own communities or suck it up. Guys hit on girls, nothing anyone do or say will ever change that.
Of course you were talking on our behalf when you said "If you want x.. don't ask our community, but start your own".
And you're doing it again just a few comments above.+ Show Spoiler +
"The point is that you haven't at all tried to tell me how you would get guys to stop hitting on girls. I argue that it is impossible. The drive to court and mate with the other sex is one of the strongest drives we have. It wont go away just because you want it to"
Seriously, stop it. It's not cool by any means. Speak for yourself and stop using others (or at least me) to support your own personal opinions.
On April 10 2012 19:58 Klockan3 wrote: Which is why we will never have a proper discussion. If you don't respect your opponent then you shouldn't argue. You will only get outraged because he/she is capable of thinking differently than you.
Well, I'd be only repeating myself anyways, as I've already shared my bit in this topic; I am not here to convert the likes like you, I'm here to perhaps show there's something more than just accepting the 'standards' as they are, because that's how it was for who knows how long, to others, who are perhaps more receptive and willing to make a difference.
You know, with this logic, it used to be common to burn women on stake as witches, because it fit agenda of certain groups! It even used to be common for women to be a property of men. So, why don't we continue with that, right? This is very exagerrated example, yes, but I think, as an image, how absurd thinking 'let's not even try to change things, after all, it's norm' it should be enough.
I know that the argument "It has always been like this" is a bad argument, but as you would have noticed if you actually read what I said I am not using that argument. And then the argument "You can't say that just because it has never been done before it isn't possible" is even more ridiculous in most of the cases. Like I could argue that we should get every elementary school kids to jump 2 meters high in gym class and meet every counterargument with "You can't say that just because it has never been done before it isn't possible".
Can you agree that males to develop romantic feelings for females? Can you agree that it is possible for this to happen online? Now, how would you stop guys from developing feelings from girls? When you answered that question please accept a professorship in psychology and the nobel peace prize. I can very easily explain how to stop people from burning women and how to rewrite the law so that women aren't property of men. But preventing guys from developing feelings for gals isn't as trivial.
On April 10 2012 19:43 BabyToss! wrote: @Klockan3 - no, I do not respect people, who try to dismiss everything as 'utopia' and accept things as they are
Which is why we will never have a proper discussion. If you don't respect your opponent then you shouldn't argue. You will only get outraged because he/she is capable of thinking differently than you.
Edit: The point is that you haven't at all tried to tell me how you would get guys to stop hitting on girls. I argue that it is impossible. The drive to court and mate with the other sex is one of the strongest drives we have. It wont go away just because you want it to.
Please tell me you're not reducing sexual harassment down to some biological imperative.
I am not talking about sexual harassment, read my post. PM'ing a girl saying you love her is not sexual harassment. Giving a girl free stuff because you hope to hook up with her is not sexual harassment.
On April 10 2012 20:21 khaydarin9 wrote: Please tell me you're not reducing sexual harassment down to some biological imperative.
I was actually wondering, if he is trying to downgrade guys to mere pile of hormones by his posts. If I were a guy, I'd be highly offended by his statements. Just saying. I know many guys, who are quite intelligent and far better than that; so no, it's not like the guys can't make their decision on how to treat a fellow gamer, who happens to be a female. Thank you for pointing it out, though.
Individuals and groups differ quite a lot psychologically. For an individual it is just a choice, for the group it isn't.
PMing a girl saying that you love her when it's not warranted is harassment. Hitting on girls in an environment where it's not warranted is harassment.
Okay... getting away from the bizarre ideas of Klockan...
The thing is, everyone who goes 'against the flow' or 'standards' gets haters, no matter if you are nice about stuff or not. That is an undeniable truth, just look through the history, for some extreme examples, where people were burnt at stake, executed, etc. Today's society is sadly not much different, except you just can't burn someone because they have different opinion. People are too content with stereotypes and concerned with appeasing the society and its 'norms'. People are often concerned for their own popularity, rather than actually trying to make a difference.
This is where I disagree. I think you'll find that this simply isn't true, especially on the internets, especially on teamliquid.
Real life isn't high school. People are interested in actual people with actual interests and actual quirks and actual styles. Most people when they aren't interested, just leave.
I honestly think you could go on stream and dress like a emo or goth or whatever and not get too many haters, as long as you're not negative on stream. This whole idea "I must fit into society's norms!" is downright silly. Being kind and polite is society's norms. You probably are already fitting into society's norms.
I mean seriously, look at Sheth's stream. You can make the argument "oh he's a guy he doesn't have to care about his looks," but we all know that's bullshit. The man is pretty big. You know how many fat jokes go on in his chat? Almost zero. Why? Because he's kind and nice and helpful and funny.
On April 10 2012 20:36 BabyToss! wrote: @Klockan3 For guys to be able to be friends with women, it's quite simple, really. Accept them as part of the community, as equals and then, you'll see them as fellow gamers, rather than something to hit on. You are justt rying to excuse this whole 'romantic clichee' with some sort of reasoning, when there's really none. Nobody is making you to act in this way and please don't tell me it's psychological; it's all up to what the society brainwashed into us, because it's something 'common' and 'norm' and it's up to us to either accept it (bad) or make up our own mind. (good).
So dogs humping each other is just something society got them into? You can't argue that it isn't natural to try to pursue romantic interests. Sending a message is about the most harmless thing you can do in that regard, how would you get guys to stop doing that without totally castrating them?
On April 10 2012 20:36 BabyToss! wrote: I've had mostly male friends through my life and it worked for me even better than friendships with women. Just saying.
I never said it wasn't possible, I said that it was more problematic than same sex friendship. People are all different and to some these issues might be smaller than the issues they have with their own sex but those are exceptions.
On April 10 2012 18:10 Klockan3 wrote: What you are basically asking is for these guys to not only get shut out from social interactions in the real world but they should also be robbed of their online respite just because you want to be a part of it. Of course you could say that as it is it isn't fair to the girls, but remember that these communities weren't built by or for girls. If you want to have the same thing then you got to build your own community instead of trying to change already existing ones.
I'm having some great trouble responding to this calmly to be honest, but I'll do my best. If you want to start a new gaming "community" for guys only then by all means go ahead. Apart from what you've said, which I dare to disagree with, what gives you the right to speak for the community in the first place? I don't remember giving you my vote.
I am obviously not speaking on behalf of you or anyone else, but I didn't say that I did either. I didn't say that girls aren't welcome, I said that if girls want to get into these communities they can't expect to get treated like guys. If they have a problem with that they should create their own communities or suck it up. Guys hit on girls, nothing anyone do or say will ever change that.
Of course you were talking on our behalf when you said "If you want x.. don't ask our community, but start your own".
Read my post again, I didn't say that.
On April 10 2012 20:45 Stratos wrote: And you're doing it again just a few comments above.+ Show Spoiler +
"The point is that you haven't at all tried to tell me how you would get guys to stop hitting on girls. I argue that it is impossible. The drive to court and mate with the other sex is one of the strongest drives we have. It wont go away just because you want it to"
Seriously, stop it. It's not cool by any means. Speak for yourself and stop using others (or at least me) to support your own personal opinions.
How is that talking for the community? There I talked about every living species in existence.
On April 10 2012 19:58 Klockan3 wrote: Which is why we will never have a proper discussion. If you don't respect your opponent then you shouldn't argue. You will only get outraged because he/she is capable of thinking differently than you.
Well, I'd be only repeating myself anyways, as I've already shared my bit in this topic; I am not here to convert the likes like you, I'm here to perhaps show there's something more than just accepting the 'standards' as they are, because that's how it was for who knows how long, to others, who are perhaps more receptive and willing to make a difference.
You know, with this logic, it used to be common to burn women on stake as witches, because it fit agenda of certain groups! It even used to be common for women to be a property of men. So, why don't we continue with that, right? This is very exagerrated example, yes, but I think, as an image, how absurd thinking 'let's not even try to change things, after all, it's norm' it should be enough.
I know that the argument "It has always been like this" is a bad argument, but as you would have noticed if you actually read what I said I am not using that argument. And then the argument "You can't say that just because it has never been done before it isn't possible" is even more ridiculous in most of the cases. Like I could argue that we should get every elementary school kids to jump 2 meters high in gym class and meet every counterargument with "You can't say that just because it has never been done before it isn't possible".
Can you agree that males to develop romantic feelings for females? Can you agree that it is possible for this to happen online? Now, how would you stop guys from developing feelings from girls? When you answered that question please accept a professorship in psychology and the nobel peace prize. I can very easily explain how to stop people from burning women and how to rewrite the law so that women aren't property of men. But preventing guys from developing feelings for gals isn't as trivial.
On April 10 2012 20:21 khaydarin9 wrote:
On April 10 2012 19:58 Klockan3 wrote:
On April 10 2012 19:43 BabyToss! wrote: @Klockan3 - no, I do not respect people, who try to dismiss everything as 'utopia' and accept things as they are
Which is why we will never have a proper discussion. If you don't respect your opponent then you shouldn't argue. You will only get outraged because he/she is capable of thinking differently than you.
Edit: The point is that you haven't at all tried to tell me how you would get guys to stop hitting on girls. I argue that it is impossible. The drive to court and mate with the other sex is one of the strongest drives we have. It wont go away just because you want it to.
Please tell me you're not reducing sexual harassment down to some biological imperative.
I am not talking about sexual harassment, read my post. PM'ing a girl saying you love her is not sexual harassment. Giving a girl free stuff because you hope to hook up with her is not sexual harassment.
On April 10 2012 20:23 BabyToss! wrote:
On April 10 2012 20:21 khaydarin9 wrote: Please tell me you're not reducing sexual harassment down to some biological imperative.
I was actually wondering, if he is trying to downgrade guys to mere pile of hormones by his posts. If I were a guy, I'd be highly offended by his statements. Just saying. I know many guys, who are quite intelligent and far better than that; so no, it's not like the guys can't make their decision on how to treat a fellow gamer, who happens to be a female. Thank you for pointing it out, though.
Individuals and groups differ quite a lot psychologically. For an individual it is just a choice, for the group it isn't.
PMing a girl saying that you love her when it's not warranted is harassment. Hitting on girls in an environment where it's not warranted is harassment.
So, when is it warranted PM'ing girls saying that you love them? And who decided that games are not an environment where it is warranted to hit on people? It is a social activity where you meet people, to me it seems like a situation where people could hook up. And in fact, people are hooking up through online gaming. So why wouldn't it be warranted? Of course if the same person do it over and over it becomes harassment, but just once is harmless.
Klockan3 once again trying to make guys look like primitive beings who just think with their peen more than anything else, because comment like 'so dogs are trying to hump each other because of society'. Human beings are far more complex than that, here's the news. There's no need to 'castrate' guys, wow, you truly have 'interesting' opinions. Once again, there's more to life than just sex and hitting on opposite sex. Maybe that concept is new to you, I do not know, but just because it's 'natural', it doesn't mean it's right, and as intelligent beings, we should know better than that. Which, most of us do. Luckily.
@DoubleReed - you must've misinterpreted my posts, as I'm taking arms and going against 'norms' and 'stereotypes', quite vocally so as well. This whole topic is about some stereotypes happening in e-sports/StarCraft 2 regarding women, the 'dress code' and stuff like that; and I honestly can't stand that crap, especially with the trend we get to see lately. I said I wanted diversity but also good content, rather than seeing pretty people (no matter if guy or girl). Hope that clarifies...
On April 10 2012 20:59 BabyToss! wrote: Klockan3 once again trying to make guys look like primitive beings who just think with their peen more than anything else, because comment like 'so dogs are trying to hump each other because of society'. Human beings are far more complex than that, here's the news. There's no need to 'castrate' guys, wow, you truly have 'interesting' opinions. Once again, there's more to life than just sex and hitting on opposite sex. Maybe that concept is new to you, I do not know, but just because it's 'natural', it doesn't mean it's right, and as intelligent beings, we should know better than that. Which, most of us do. Luckily.
Meh, can't argue with plebeians. Sure go on with your crusade with your white knights, I don't care. I was just trying to add some common sense to this whole discussion instead of letting it just developing into the usual rant about how everyone should get treated equally in every situation ever. But you guys obviously don't want a serious discussion about the subject. It must be so nice and easy to have a world were everything is black and white, since I am not white I must be black. Obviously.
Now you will probably be happy to hear that I will stop posting in this topic, I can't discuss with people who are as narrow minded as you.
On April 10 2012 21:11 Klockan3 wrote: Meh, can't argue with plebeians. Sure go on with your crusade with your white knights, I don't care. I was just trying to add some common sense to this whole discussion instead of letting it just developing into the usual rant about how everyone should get treated equally in every situation ever. But you guys obviously don't want a serious discussion about the subject. It must be so nice and easy to have a world were everything is black and white, since I am not white I must be black. Obviously.
Now you will probably be happy to hear that I will stop posting in this topic, I can't discuss with people who are as narrow minded as you.
Oh, wow... wanting everyone to be treated equally is oh so wrong... nah, nothing nice to say to someone like you. I hope that people with similar mindset won't be in majority though, for the sake of all of us. You did not add common sense, you added a lot of primitive clichees and frankly, you are one of the most narrow-minded persons in this thread. Because if you have to argue against people having equal chances and equal treatment, then well... glad you are out.
On April 10 2012 19:58 Klockan3 wrote: Which is why we will never have a proper discussion. If you don't respect your opponent then you shouldn't argue. You will only get outraged because he/she is capable of thinking differently than you.
Well, I'd be only repeating myself anyways, as I've already shared my bit in this topic; I am not here to convert the likes like you, I'm here to perhaps show there's something more than just accepting the 'standards' as they are, because that's how it was for who knows how long, to others, who are perhaps more receptive and willing to make a difference.
You know, with this logic, it used to be common to burn women on stake as witches, because it fit agenda of certain groups! It even used to be common for women to be a property of men. So, why don't we continue with that, right? This is very exagerrated example, yes, but I think, as an image, how absurd thinking 'let's not even try to change things, after all, it's norm' it should be enough.
I know that the argument "It has always been like this" is a bad argument, but as you would have noticed if you actually read what I said I am not using that argument. And then the argument "You can't say that just because it has never been done before it isn't possible" is even more ridiculous in most of the cases. Like I could argue that we should get every elementary school kids to jump 2 meters high in gym class and meet every counterargument with "You can't say that just because it has never been done before it isn't possible".
Can you agree that males to develop romantic feelings for females? Can you agree that it is possible for this to happen online? Now, how would you stop guys from developing feelings from girls? When you answered that question please accept a professorship in psychology and the nobel peace prize. I can very easily explain how to stop people from burning women and how to rewrite the law so that women aren't property of men. But preventing guys from developing feelings for gals isn't as trivial.
On April 10 2012 20:21 khaydarin9 wrote:
On April 10 2012 19:58 Klockan3 wrote:
On April 10 2012 19:43 BabyToss! wrote: @Klockan3 - no, I do not respect people, who try to dismiss everything as 'utopia' and accept things as they are
Which is why we will never have a proper discussion. If you don't respect your opponent then you shouldn't argue. You will only get outraged because he/she is capable of thinking differently than you.
Edit: The point is that you haven't at all tried to tell me how you would get guys to stop hitting on girls. I argue that it is impossible. The drive to court and mate with the other sex is one of the strongest drives we have. It wont go away just because you want it to.
Please tell me you're not reducing sexual harassment down to some biological imperative.
I am not talking about sexual harassment, read my post. PM'ing a girl saying you love her is not sexual harassment. Giving a girl free stuff because you hope to hook up with her is not sexual harassment.
On April 10 2012 20:23 BabyToss! wrote:
On April 10 2012 20:21 khaydarin9 wrote: Please tell me you're not reducing sexual harassment down to some biological imperative.
I was actually wondering, if he is trying to downgrade guys to mere pile of hormones by his posts. If I were a guy, I'd be highly offended by his statements. Just saying. I know many guys, who are quite intelligent and far better than that; so no, it's not like the guys can't make their decision on how to treat a fellow gamer, who happens to be a female. Thank you for pointing it out, though.
Individuals and groups differ quite a lot psychologically. For an individual it is just a choice, for the group it isn't.
PMing a girl saying that you love her when it's not warranted is harassment. Hitting on girls in an environment where it's not warranted is harassment.
So, when is it warranted PM'ing girls saying that you love them? And who decided that games are not an environment where it is warranted to hit on people? It is a social activity where you meet people, to me it seems like a situation where people could hook up. And in fact, people are hooking up through online gaming. So why wouldn't it be warranted? Of course if the same person do it over and over it becomes harassment, but just once is harmless.
Normally I disapprove of people giving relationship advice in any context, let alone on the internet, but I am going to break my own rule this once to tell you this: if she's not your girlfriend, or relative, or a close friend, it's probably not OK to PM her and tell her that you love her.
Also some general advice: it doesn't have to happen more than once. Saying inappropriate things to a person or about a person in, say, a workplace once could have legal ramifications.
You consider gaming to be a social activity just like any other? Go right ahead - but make sure you treat others with the same etiquette and respect that you would if you were all in a bar, or a book club, or a party, etc.
EDIT: Yes, calling people who disagree with you plebes is absolutely indicative of someone who is the epitome of respect for others T_T
Hahaha damnit I just woke up and saw all this but I've got to run to work...
Klockan3, LOL: "You don't know what it was like growing up nerdy! Womens were so mean to us! We can't help it! We're just so socially awkward and horny by nature and nothing can change us so just learn to put up with our shit! Waahhhhhh!!! Get out of our one safe place!!"
Community doesn't need people like you Klockan. Women are 50% of the general population. Just because you're sexually attracted to them does not negate etiquette. PMing a stranger that you love them is stalkerish and creepy. I don't really care how you justify being stalkerish and creepy.
It's not like women never interact with men without objectification. Grow up, plebeian (lol).
On April 10 2012 05:17 Haemonculus wrote: "These are deprived males." Do men not find this insulting? You suggest that they are completely incapable of controlling their own behavior, emotions, and reactions, (and you even imply that they cannot even understand their own emotions) [...]
On April 10 2012 20:23 BabyToss! wrote: I was actually wondering, if he is trying to downgrade guys to mere pile of hormones by his posts. If I were a guy, I'd be highly offended by his statements.
Guys tend to be pretty realistic about this kind of stuff so this isn't really insulting. While exeggarated and loaded, these descriptions are unfortunately very precise. Take a one month tour through TL girl blogs for a good sample of just how incapable guys are with handling their own and other's emotions.
On April 10 2012 05:17 Haemonculus wrote: "These are deprived males." Do men not find this insulting? You suggest that they are completely incapable of controlling their own behavior, emotions, and reactions, (and you even imply that they cannot even understand their own emotions) [...]
On April 10 2012 20:23 BabyToss! wrote: I was actually wondering, if he is trying to downgrade guys to mere pile of hormones by his posts. If I were a guy, I'd be highly offended by his statements.
Guys tend to be pretty realistic about this kind of stuff so this isn't really insulting. While exeggarated and loaded, these descriptions are unfortunately very precise. Take a one month tour through TL girl blogs for a good sample of just how incapable guys are with handling their own and other's emotions.
Haha, and isn't it hilarious that women are considered the emotional, hysterical ones? Oh yes men are so logical.
And yes I do find it insulting and no that shit isn't realistic at all. All you're really saying is that men are more sexist than women.
I don't think he's saying it's intrinsic. I think he's just speaking to the lowest common denominator and in this case, because of where we are, the proof happens to lie in a bunch of silly girl blogs by boys. But there's girls like that too.
lol at babytoss being the one to argue that guys are able to think with more than their dicks, normally that's something guys are eager to assert and girls are unconvinced .
goodbye klockan, your contributions will be missed.
why, just the other day, a strange man approximately 8 years older than me who i had never talked to before asked me to add him on skype and for my facebook, after calling me "my unichan" in some skype group for a game (i know one person in there) my bad for putting my real name and picture on my skype profile why so many guys think this is the way to go about meeting females online i will never understand
On April 10 2012 22:51 unichan wrote: why, just the other day, a strange man approximately 8 years older than me who i had never talked to before asked me to add him on skype and for my facebook, after calling me "my unichan" in some skype group for a game (i know one person in there) my bad for putting my real name and picture on my skype profile why so many guys think this is the way to go about meeting females online i will never understand
Well only a troll or a socially awkward/creepy guy would do something like that. And neither of those would probably approach a girl directly irl. Just pointing out this doesn't necessarily say much about the gaming/online community. It might just be the anonymity that arms people who would otherwise stay quiet in a corner. Not saying that such a behaviour is okay, by the way.
No, actually those people sometimes approach you irl. -.- (maybe I am really unlucky t.t)
However, I'd like to pull one point of discussion out of our dear plebeian friend's post: 'white-knighting'. A deragatory term more often than not used to describe a guy who said something along the lines of: "don't be an ass to her", "treat women with respect", etcetc. I think there is a context where this word can be used appropriately, but I have never seen it used there. Every context I've seen it used in, you could easily replace it with "being a decent human being". It pisses me off that guys are actively discouraging each other from treating women better; I wish this word would stop being used.
On April 10 2012 23:52 RedJustice wrote: No, actually those people sometimes approach you irl. -.- (maybe I am really unlucky t.t)
However, I'd like to pull one point of discussion out of our dear plebeian friend's post: 'white-knighting'. A deragatory term more often than not used to describe a guy who said something along the lines of: "don't be an ass to her", "treat women with respect", etcetc. I think there is a context where this word can be used appropriately, but I have never seen it used there. Every context I've seen it used in, you could easily replace it with "being a decent human being". It pisses me off that guys are actively discouraging each other from treating women better; I wish this word would stop being used.
It's used fairly accurately quite often, due to the above noted nature of your 'stereotypical nerd'(noting that stereotypes a) exist for a reason, because they are true for some number of a population and b) that they are nonetheless not indicative of an entire population), a lot of those 'decent comments' tend to be far more loaded in their context.
Anyhow, while Klockan has an interesting way of wording what he is saying(and yes it is in some form insulting), he is saying some true things. Men on the whole don't do everything in life to hook up, have sex, have children; they do however unavoidably do things in this context when faced with a woman that makes them think of such things(no it isn't uncontrollable). You're never going to eliminate getting hit on, even if it isn't the primary concern of an activity. Any activity that blends males and females together will inevitably lead to romantic interaction. This doesn't mean it has to be overt harassment, and no, most men won't go instantly into a deep romantic stage where they send 'I love you' PMs and penis pictures, but it's impossible to avoid some of it happening(lowest common denominators and whatnot)
.I don't believe(maybe wrongly) anyone here thinks that society is ever going to remove harmless(and unfortunately sometimes harmful, but clearly a minority case there) flirtation between sexes though, so I'm not sure why he took it that far; that topic, though related, is quite distantly removed from a discussion about female appearances on stage at a gaming event and the sexism that implies with regards to gaming in general.
Also, Haemonculus y u no post in LoL forum no more?
On April 10 2012 07:29 Xyik wrote: Not sure why girls on the internet wouldn't want guys to hit on them? It's not really any different than in real life. If you're an average looking girl guys are going to treat you differently in a flirtatious manner.
But I have no interest in anyone hitting on me, irl or online.
Yeah those guys suck!
Wanna get a drink some time and talk about how much those guys suck?
Oh I didn't respond to you earlier BabyToss. You were decrying on how society doesn't properly accept people who don't fit in. What I was trying to say is that they actually do. There's nothing to stand up for.
Seriously, it's easy to come up with inhibitions and fear. But in this community I would honestly just say to go for it.
On April 11 2012 00:26 red_ wrote: Anyhow, while Klockan has an interesting way of wording what he is saying(and yes it is in some form insulting), he is saying some true things. Men on the whole don't do everything in life to hook up, have sex, have children; they do however unavoidably do things in this context when faced with a woman that makes them think of such things(no it isn't uncontrollable). You're never going to eliminate getting hit on, even if it isn't the primary concern of an activity. Any activity that blends males and females together will inevitably lead to romantic interaction. This doesn't mean it has to be overt harassment, and no, most men won't go instantly into a deep romantic stage where they send 'I love you' PMs and penis pictures, but it's impossible to avoid some of it happening(lowest common denominators and whatnot)
Maybe we're going to have to write this off as another one of those ridiculous fundamental differences between men and women, because I really don't think it's true that any activity that blends males and females together will lead to romantic interaction.
But maybe that's because I have a FRIENDZONE ... haha ...
Well you are bringing up people popular in the sc2 community. You are generally famous for:
a) Being good at the game or... b) Being a personality (usually through casting) like Day[9], Tastosis, and Totalbiscuit for example
Not a single girl is good enough to be famous for reason a) despite the threshold for a decent girl being popular for skill is likely quite lower than it is for a guy. There also aren't any women with personalities that are as developed and well-known as the males in the community. So, if the girl's job is a presenter on stage in Las Vegas of course they're going to want someone attractive. In Smix's case it was due to her tangible skill (translating) and Anna has previously worked with the community and is fairly known to at least the TL crowd.
I really don't think there's much sexism... it's a male dominated field. And I don't see what K-Pop has to do with it, of course they are chosen for their looks, it's the market's fault that it works so don't blame anyone but the general South Korean public I guess.
Sorry to take a page one comment, but it interests me:
On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote: RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
I don't think these experiences are limited to the gaming community, are they? Online anonymity as a whole breeds racism, sexism, any kind of ism you can think of. Sometimes I think it's just teenagers testing their boundaries and what they can get away with on the internet, sometimes I think it doesn't matter what age they are, they're just horrible people showing their true colours in the one place they think they won't be reprimanded. Which is why TL and the people you've come to know show a much greater concern. It's stops being anonymous when you come to identify yourself with your online ID, and the consequences of what happens to that ID are a reality. That's not to say that the people who've been on this site are secretly racist or sexist, but at least as much to say that the internet doesn't function as an outlet for 'politically incorrect' opinions anymore, which might only be appealing for people who can actually get along with human beings of various backgrounds.
All that to say that I think the general online experience with anonymous users (youtube comments, 4chan, low post count on any forum) is pretty horrible. For everyone person with a witty one liner, there's 100 arguing about Nazis, saying the n word, or otherwise recording their nugatory thoughts for all the internet to see. I realise that your point is about the female experience specifically, and I don't want to degrade that, but I believe (misanthropic as I am) that it goes beyond the gaming community.
On April 11 2012 00:26 red_ wrote: Anyhow, while Klockan has an interesting way of wording what he is saying(and yes it is in some form insulting), he is saying some true things. Men on the whole don't do everything in life to hook up, have sex, have children; they do however unavoidably do things in this context when faced with a woman that makes them think of such things(no it isn't uncontrollable). You're never going to eliminate getting hit on, even if it isn't the primary concern of an activity. Any activity that blends males and females together will inevitably lead to romantic interaction. This doesn't mean it has to be overt harassment, and no, most men won't go instantly into a deep romantic stage where they send 'I love you' PMs and penis pictures, but it's impossible to avoid some of it happening(lowest common denominators and whatnot)
Maybe we're going to have to write this off as another one of those ridiculous fundamental differences between men and women, because I really don't think it's true that any activity that blends males and females together will lead to romantic interaction.
But maybe that's because I have a FRIENDZONE ... haha ...
It's pretty much a matter of statistics. You are in an incredibly easy position to say 'no, I can separate this from that' but that doesn't make it any less true on the whole.
When men and women do things together, there are men and women within that population that will find someone worth NOT friendzoning(men do it too, don't feel too special), and whether the feelings are mutual or not, there are people that will act upon them(and the vast majority will act upon them in a respectful way, the internet just brings out more disrespect in general so you see it played out differently here).
It's not that fundamental a difference either, the behavior is plenty visible in female dominated fields(go ask a male cheerleader).
On April 09 2012 21:50 Haemonculus wrote: RedJustice's words pretty solidly reflect my own thoughts. Especially the part about female gamer's negative experiences not being taken seriously. I'm not sure what's more annoying, the actual sexism you run into, or that you're expected to just roll with the punches and take it.
Or the ever lovely, "Well just don't tell anyone you're female! Clearly by mentioning your gender, you wanted this attention!" Again, as if this is just some inherent part of the gaming culture that you're just supposed to accept, and even censor yourself to appease instead of anyone even considering that perhaps the culture itself needs to change a bit. Sure, I'll just not stream, or never talk, or not show up to live events, or whatever makes you comfortable, -.-;
Sometimes the sexism is very blunt. I used to get "wow she's hot" or "wow she's fugly", or "get back to the kitchen" comments pretty much daily when I used to stream. Sometimes the sexism is really subtle. People assume X Y and Z about you, simply because you're female.
Now all that said, there are plenty of great guys in the community as well. I've met plenty of awesome friends over the net and in games who couldn't care less that I'm female, and take me seriously as a person and gamer. Those folks are awesome, but the community at large tends to still be pretty sexist overall.
I don't think these experiences are limited to the gaming community, are they? Online anonymity as a whole breeds racism, sexism, any kind of ism you can think of. Sometimes I think it's just teenagers testing their boundaries and what they can get away with on the internet, sometimes I think it doesn't matter what age they are, they're just horrible people showing their true colours in the one place they think they won't be reprimanded. Which is why TL and the people you've come to know show a much greater concern. It's stops being anonymous when you come to identify yourself with your online ID, and the consequences of what happens to that ID are a reality. That's not to say that the people who've been on this site are secretly racist or sexist, but at least as much to say that the internet doesn't function as an outlet for 'politically incorrect' opinions anymore, which might only be appealing for people who can actually get along with human beings of various backgrounds.
All that to say that I think the general online experience with anonymous users (youtube comments, 4chan, low post count on any forum) is pretty horrible. For everyone person with a witty one liner, there's 100 arguing about Nazis, saying the n word, or otherwise recording their nugatory thoughts for all the internet to see. I realise that your point is about the female experience specifically, and I don't want to degrade that, but I believe (misanthropic as I am) that it goes beyond the gaming community.
I agree with that to an extent, but my personal experiences with the internet is that I have never had a similar experience online anywhere outside the gaming community. Elsewhere on the internet I have seen plenty of assholes, more people willing to vocalize their sexism than I meet irl, etc, but nothing like what I have encountered in the gaming community (and even then, for example, my experience with the Starcraft community has been worse than with some other games). It is difficult for me to describe it as anything other than an atmosphere of hostility towards females over the entire community, which doesn't seem to be matched by hostility towards any other group except LGBT people. In other places on the internetz I most often encounter people of every 'ism', who aren't really targeting females specifically. Whereas in other places, I have felt I can block a few people and happily go about my business, within the gaming community I often feel the only 'solution' is being born male.
The hostility I perceive through my experiences seems like an innate part of the community, mostly reinforced by what I referred to earlier as the invocal majority. I have yet to resolve my desire to be part of this community with my experience that it is impossible to be fully part of it as myself.
On April 09 2012 20:48 Zandar wrote: I mean we are the nerd squad. I always thought that if there's one group of males that would value personality, intelligence etc above physical beauty it would be the nerds.
Of course there are handsome male players and casters, but also a bit less and in the end, who cares how they look? Nobody. I don't care if you're fat, ugly, awkward, because fellow nerds don't judge nerds about that, these traits don't matter.
But why do the girls on stage all have to be cute? Why do I get mostly "hot female gamers, sexy female gamers" links when I do a google search for "female gamers" I have nothing against Seltzer, Smix, Anna etc. I really appreciate them for trying to make e-sports a less male only environment. And besides that they are good at what they do too.
But why do only girls like them succeed? With above average looks. Why do they always have to dress hot?
Kpop is even worse. Those girls are all selected purely for looks. All the same hight and sizes. It doesn't even matter if they can sing, they can just moderate their voices.
It's the kind of sexism that doesn't belong with us nerds I think. We were always ignored by the cheerleader type of alpha girl, but there were always other girls, maybe more shy, less popular, but for me, usually more interesting, because they were more like me. They exist for sure but where are they in this community? Is it because they avoid the spotlight themself? Or is it because when they try to, they only get judged by their looks instead of who they are. Or because they get judged by their environment when they find out she plays games?
I think by always having non-nerd girls on stage we don't give our fellow nerd girls a real chance. I'm pretty sure there are girls out there that don't have the pop star look but a lot of game knowledge. There are plenty of female gamer leagues, surely one of them has casting skills too. Why don't tournament organisers scout her instead of the beauty pageant? I'd love to hear an insightful female voice.
Scarlett is like the first girl who fits the profile a bit, even if she's cute, it seems she's a real fellow gamer nerd at heart. And it took her a while to make the step in the public, even with such great skills. I hope she'll be an example for many girls/women. The amount of fans she got in a few days gives me hope!
And to you gamer nerd girl anywhere around the world, I love you and hope to see more of you.
You have a pretty unique view of the gaming community, thinking that we're a bunch of people that like personality over looks. What made you think this? And nobody cares about handsome male casters and players because the people who watch them in tourneys and such are mostly male. If there were mostly female audience, then of course looks will matter for male casters and players.
To skip all the crap. Perhaps you haven't found the right crowd. Screw the over the top generations or what you coin as friends or by association. I'm sorry but most people you meet in life are nothing more than acquaintances. This doesn't mean you cannot be friendly with them, but if you are going to take chatrooms and all the crap you see in the community seriously than yeah, you are just going to get down on yourself.
You get hit on. So be it. If people want to be stupid. Let them be stupid on their own time and don't give them your time.
Stand-up for yourself. You want change and other geeky women to take the limelight well you got to do more than just posting a blog about your frustrations.
So, I'm like at a university right now. How likely am I to find a random girl who likes video games if I just go out and flirt with every girl I see in class or otherwise? I guess it would be nice to have a girl who shares the same video game interests as me, let alone a girl who would be willing to watch live BW or SC2 with me. But how likely is it for me to find one that would be willing to do so? Or how likely would it for me to find a girl who would at least accept my interests in video games and Starcraft without rolling her eyes too much and having my interests be detrimental to my chances?