TvZ is basically unwatchable and unplayable in the current state of sc2. It's a joke of a matchup now.
The recent overlord speed buff and queen range buff have changed TvZ more than I think blizzard has intended and it's basically broken the matchup in my opinion. It wasn't at first evident after the buffs because many zergs were still playing how they normally played and we didn't really see the true problems. But now we're starting to realize Zerg can play extremely greedy every game vs Terran without risk, and since they will always see/scout with overlords at 6-7 minutes they can react to any possible Terran aggression or 1 or 2base allin. Especially if they just make a couple extra queens which zergs are already starting to do as a norm now. Many of the problems Zerg always had against Terran historically in sc2 was dealing with aggression and the various builds/options Terran had to throw at Zerg. Slowly things started getting worse/removed patch by patch. Banshees became easier to deflect with faster moving spores. 2rax and bunker rushing got harder with bigger maps and longer build times on bunker and rax. late game things that were good for Terran such as mules on gold, ghost snipe were removed or nerfed so much it became quite cost inefficient to consider anymore. These are just some of the bigger changes. All of this has added up to a point where the matchup just feels wrong now and isn't fun to watch, play or be involved with at all.
Zergs can just produce extra queens as a response to everything which doesn't even slow them down, plus having the extra queens serves more than just defensive purposes as well so it's not even a bad thing at all by forcing them. This makes allining from a terran perspective really risky without any chance of even damaging zerg to a point where it was worth it. There are extremely limited options now for Terran to slow a greedy Zerg down. The only games I'm really seeing Terran win consistently over the past few weeks are where Terran is allowed to do something extremely greedy or Zerg makes some really big mistakes either decision or tactical. I really hope Blizzard is watching and reviewing numbers (I'm sure they are) because it's pretty bad. Some of the best terrans I've been watching replays and vods of are doing extremely greedy builds vs zerg which are capable of keeping up with zerg (many super fast 3cc builds are quite good) but from the zergs perspective when they see or know the terran is doing a 3cc they have options to exploit that. They can either play even greedier or go for a build which can punish the terrans greed. Terran on the other hand can see the zergs greed and be playing with maphacks and still lose. As a Terran player when I'm working out any new build TvZ you have to ask the question "can it survive a roach ling bane allin, a roach ling allin, or any variation of bane ling allin?" Zerg does not ask those questions at all they simply just say "Make an extra couple spines/queens while continuing to pump drones." and you will always have overlords to spot for armies moving out. Terran will have hellions spotting but even these are repelled easier now that zerg is capable of pushing them around and back faster.
Some of the best terran players are playing 15cc builds quite often these days, Taeja and MKP come to mind, but these builds automatically lose to some zerg builds if they choose to coin flip, MKP lost to back to back 6pools the other day in TSL4 KR qualifier. When I was complaining about this one of my friends on skype said "well everyone knows MKP is one of the greediest mofos around." Why can zerg exploit the greediest terran mofo around but terran cant do the same to zerg anymore?
Most of these aggressive zerg builds don't even need to win the game and zerg can still get ahead. If terran does an equivalent build to a roach ling bane allin (hellion maraduer allin with scvs etc) the only way it might work is if zerg doesn't scout it, even if they scout it and it does some damage, terran is still behind if it doesn't win. In general we're still seeing Terrans beating Zerg in games but it's when zerg makes extremely bad moves or doesn't play/react properly to the terran player. When both sides play a "perfect" game I'm seeing zerg win most of the time. And we're not even seeing perfect games hardly at all from most players. We are not going to see Terran players winning any big championships anytime soon if they're playing vs zerg. Mark my words and please follow results on this but its been really bad already. Only two terrans in the top 16 of the recent TSL4 KR qualifier. I'm not saying all terrans are going to lose to zerg 100% of the time but it's going to be over 60% and late in tournaments I would not expect to see terrans winning at all as zergs become more comfortable with their autofree greed.
I've talked to lots of people about this from both sides, many zerg players are just telling terran players to micro better or figure out something new or play greedier, (pretty basic responses I get from many players who don't really have a deep understanding of the game) I'm scared about the "finding something new" path because if anything gets found new that helps SO much to change or skew balance back in terran favor it gets nerfed. Micro better is fine advice and definitely something terran players can work on to help in the matchup, but what if both players micro better? It almost feels like zerg players are telling terrans to just play 100x better than them to win which is what it feels like terran needs to do these days, is that good for a competitive game? If one player plays slightly better that player should win. It shouldn't require one of the players to make massive mistakes to lose games. I'm only seeing zerg lose with massive mistakes lately which is pretty sad.
Honestly Terran cant make a single mistake at any point in a TvZ or they're basically going to autolose all the while hoping their zerg opponent makes massive mistakes (sometimes takes 3-4 huge mistakes in 1 game for T to win) I mean zerg can literally throw away maxed armies and still be fine. what the fuck is this broodwar TvP all over again???
Terrans were dominating for a while in korea but it was more because it was easier for terran to abuse maps/positions and I always felt that some of the more skilled players that switched to sc2 at first were playing terran so it was hard to really judge results based purely off sc2 stats early on. I really felt things were fairly balanced before the queen/overlord buffs. As maps had gotten bigger there really didn't seem to be any blatant issues before the buffs, now it seems there ARE blatant issues in my opinion. Too early to tell still? Maybe for blizzard but not for me.
I agree with Sadistx, I find that using more Ravens has allowed me to either punch through the zerg lines or at the very worst open up some doors with unexpected harassment.
I think you should just practice more outside the 'norm' and you'll likely find more success.
I don't think it's a joke, I'm just not really sure what I'm supposed to be doing.
Comparing it to TvP: I FEEL like i have to do a lot of damage in the early and mid-game. I feel like I really have to slow the protoss the fuck down. I feel like I have to out-position him and then out-micro the shit out of him if I go for a late-game, ESPECIALLY if i haven't managed to do enough harass to get a serious edge in the early or mid-game. I feel like it's almost a better option to go for some really really aggressive all-ins in the early game always. I can bitch about templar being ezpz and protoss deathballs and warp-in being bullshit and out-remaxing INSIDE the terran base faster than the terran can all I want, but i at least comprehend what went wrong and what I needed to do to stop it. But I understand that that's what I'm supposed to be doing right now, and I know the reasoning behind it and know and understand when I need to do what and how.
Against zerg right now...I actually just don't know. What was intended as a buff to help zerg stay safe against run-bys has allowed zerg to effectively TAKE map control and actually keeps them REALLY REALLY safe from a lot more than I think it should. I don't think it's broken; maybe a little too strong, but even that I wouldn't rule on right now. It actually interests me; I'm not really pissed off by it yet, I just don't know what to do. Currently I'm doing a lot of early mid-game pushes or straight all-ins. Whether it's a three rax + hellion + stim timing thing with no medivacs, or the same thing with two (non-reactor) medivacs, or something feeling retarded and going for a 2 base 3 rax MMTM or fucking MMBT stim thing like it's TvP. If I go into a "normal" game though, I'm just not sure what to do. I feel like the best thing I can hope for is randomly scout a fast greater spire and just all-in as soon as it pops and hope to catch broodlords, because BEFORE that point the zerg can almost get away with anything and any tech they want (I feel); in short: they're too free to do whatever they want and I can't effectively punish it.
But again, I want to underline that I don't know that the queen buff is over-powered so much as I really just don't know how to deal with it yet, and what I'm supposed to be doing at what times, and to me it seems silly that all of that happened from 1 buff. Protoss got immortal range and it allowed them to use a lot more stuff and use immortals differently; and really it didn't, it just encouraged them to be more creative. The queen buff actually i feel did a whole whole lot. I wouldn't conclude that it's overpowered though; I just don't know what to do. Really though, I'm okay with that for a little while; it's kind of exciting.
And that's all that really needs to be said about late game TvZ. Zerg spams ultras, if you make an anti ultra army it dies to brood switch. If zerg spams broods you make vikings and die to ultra switch. The only general purpose unit that could keep the terran alive through these transitions is the marine, and fungal just melts them. Every single late game TvZ I've watched lately ends with the terran looking away for a split second at a critical moment and then his army melts.
Terran found the solution to this late game in the ghost, but snipe was nerfed to uselessness.
yeint, first you complain about fungals. then you complain about snipe nerf. you realize infestors take 2 snipes to kill after the "nerf" instead of 3 right?
On June 18 2012 07:29 yeint wrote: Fungals make me want to stab kittens.
And that's all that really needs to be said about late game TvZ. Zerg spams ultras, if you make an anti ultra army it dies to brood switch. If zerg spams broods you make vikings and die to ultra switch. The only general purpose unit that could keep the terran alive through these transitions is the marine, and fungal just melts them. Every single late game TvZ I've watched lately ends with the terran looking away for a split second at a critical moment and then his army melts.
Terran found the solution to this late game in the ghost, but snipe was nerfed to uselessness.
I'm unfamiliar with TvZ late-game, so please don't take this comment to be intentionally clueless or anything, but what is stopping the Terran player from simply making more Ghosts to make up for the decreased effectiveness of Snipe? Is it an issue with supply? Insufficient gas? Not enough time to pump out the Ghosts needed before the Zerg makes their move?
Anyone suggesting ravens against late game zerg is on crack. They're slow as shit, fragile, and HSM is useless against anything but unprotected broods.
On June 18 2012 07:29 yeint wrote: Fungals make me want to stab kittens.
And that's all that really needs to be said about late game TvZ. Zerg spams ultras, if you make an anti ultra army it dies to brood switch. If zerg spams broods you make vikings and die to ultra switch. The only general purpose unit that could keep the terran alive through these transitions is the marine, and fungal just melts them. Every single late game TvZ I've watched lately ends with the terran looking away for a split second at a critical moment and then his army melts.
Terran found the solution to this late game in the ghost, but snipe was nerfed to uselessness.
I'm unfamiliar with TvZ late-game, so please don't take this comment to be intentionally clueless or anything, but what is stopping the Terran player from simply making more Ghosts to make up for the decreased effectiveness of Snipe? Is it an issue with supply? Insufficient gas? Not enough time to pump out the Ghosts needed before the Zerg makes their move?
Ghosts build too slow and require too many tech lab rax. Also they're useless against cracklings. Pre-snipe-nerf it was possible to slowly build up ghosts but you'd see a lot of people die on the way there.
Note that I'm not commenting on my own play, I'm talking about what I see in tournaments. I'm nowhere near good enough for any balance issues to affect me personally.
On June 18 2012 07:29 yeint wrote: Fungals make me want to stab kittens.
And that's all that really needs to be said about late game TvZ. Zerg spams ultras, if you make an anti ultra army it dies to brood switch. If zerg spams broods you make vikings and die to ultra switch. The only general purpose unit that could keep the terran alive through these transitions is the marine, and fungal just melts them. Every single late game TvZ I've watched lately ends with the terran looking away for a split second at a critical moment and then his army melts.
Terran found the solution to this late game in the ghost, but snipe was nerfed to uselessness.
I'm unfamiliar with TvZ late-game, so please don't take this comment to be intentionally clueless or anything, but what is stopping the Terran player from simply making more Ghosts to make up for the decreased effectiveness of Snipe? Is it an issue with supply? Insufficient gas? Not enough time to pump out the Ghosts needed before the Zerg makes their move?
No terrans can get ghosts and lately I have been seeing ghosts again but not mass ton and it's used to emp/snipe infestors. infestors are what make the broodlord army so strong, if you can get rid of the infestors or take out the energy the broodlords aren't so scary anymore.
I have been seeing it on korea anyway lately and I imagine eventually terrans will realize that ghosts are still good you only need 3-5 again just to get rid emp/snipe infestors before engaging. Since terrans have tech labs anyway it's not like they have to go out of their way, instead of making 3-5 marauders you make 3-5 ghosts one time. I have found it a lot stronger then not getting them (I still think zvt is zerg favored, but not as bad as some people are saying).
On June 18 2012 07:31 aRRoSC2 wrote: yeint, first you complain about fungals. then you complain about snipe nerf. you realize infestors take 2 snipes to kill after the "nerf" instead of 3 right?
That's not the problem, the problem is snipe not being effective against Hive tech units anymore. Unlike in TvP (or HTs in PvZ), ghosts are utterly useless against the main army.
Terran builds too slowly and requires too much specialized infrastructure to afford a one trick pony unit.
What also sucks is how Z can go gasless FE, 4 queen, and either go fast third, or drop 3 gas and go into roach bane, and it's somewhat hard to tell the difference at times. Sure you can scan main, but you also have to know if the third has dropped yet or not, otherwise it could be third -> roach defense off 3 base.
I, too, have noticed recent issues in my TvZ as well. I'd like to bring attention to what you specifically said, "Zerg can do really greedy builds with no risk." While I believe that there is still some risk involved, the risk involved isn't nearly enough to discourage Zerg from being greedy. Recently I've had to rely on very gimmicky builds that revolve around starport tech in order to catch my opponents off guard.
The bright side to current TvZ: it has made me try some less-standard play, and on the off-chance I win with a standard build I feel that I thoroughly earned my victory. The darker side to current TvZ: Most of what I've understood behind risk/reward in the match-up isn't valid anymore, I feel as though if I don't have an immaculate opening I will certainly lose.
With any luck soon Terran can find (don't ask me how, through all my experimentation I've yet to find a timing/strategy against the current meta-game that has yielded consistent results) a way to combat this. Some people here have recommended Ravens, a unit I've wanted to use for a while, so it's worth a shot!
On June 18 2012 07:29 yeint wrote: Fungals make me want to stab kittens.
And that's all that really needs to be said about late game TvZ. Zerg spams ultras, if you make an anti ultra army it dies to brood switch. If zerg spams broods you make vikings and die to ultra switch. The only general purpose unit that could keep the terran alive through these transitions is the marine, and fungal just melts them. Every single late game TvZ I've watched lately ends with the terran looking away for a split second at a critical moment and then his army melts.
Terran found the solution to this late game in the ghost, but snipe was nerfed to uselessness.
I'm unfamiliar with TvZ late-game, so please don't take this comment to be intentionally clueless or anything, but what is stopping the Terran player from simply making more Ghosts to make up for the decreased effectiveness of Snipe? Is it an issue with supply? Insufficient gas? Not enough time to pump out the Ghosts needed before the Zerg makes their move?
All of the above. You also have the problem with zergs getting to hive tech in a better position nowadays because of the queen/ovie buff and just generally understanding timings/what they can get away with.
I've said from day 1 that if you have a race that depends on timing attacks to win, once people figure out the timings u will never win again. Having to rely on timing attacks is a horrible idea for a game/race and can leave you SEVERELY crippled by metagame shifts. Basically timing attacks make it feel like its not you who decide whether you win the game, but your opponent. If they know how to defend the timing attack theres basically nothing you can do to win the game and you are fucked.
On June 18 2012 07:43 Adersick wrote: I, too, have noticed recent issues in my TvZ as well. I'd like to bring attention to what you specifically said, "Zerg can do really greedy builds with no risk." While I believe that there is still some risk involved, the risk involved isn't nearly enough to discourage Zerg from being greedy. Recently I've had to rely on very gimmicky builds that revolve around starport tech in order to catch my opponents off guard.
The bright side to current TvZ: it has made me try some less-standard play, and on the off-chance I win with a standard build I feel that I thoroughly earned my victory. The darker side to current TvZ: Most of what I've understood behind risk/reward in the match-up isn't valid anymore, I feel as though if I don't have an immaculate opening I will certainly lose. With any luck soon Terran can find (don't ask me how, through all my experimentation I've yet to find a timing/strategy against the current meta-game that has yielded consistent results) a way to combat this. Some people here have recommended Ravens, a unit I've wanted to use for a while, so it's worth a shot!
I don't think so. In order to combat the greediness of the zerg you need to be greedy yourself. The problem is roach/bane/ling attacks are so fucking strong its retarded. You really need godly defense/zerg fucking up/or to have tanks. Problem is if you get tanks they put you behind and you get stuck in your base and zerg just drones drones drones anyway.
Its sick that the roach/bane/ling attacks aren't even all in.
On June 18 2012 07:29 yeint wrote: Fungals make me want to stab kittens.
And that's all that really needs to be said about late game TvZ. Zerg spams ultras, if you make an anti ultra army it dies to brood switch. If zerg spams broods you make vikings and die to ultra switch. The only general purpose unit that could keep the terran alive through these transitions is the marine, and fungal just melts them. Every single late game TvZ I've watched lately ends with the terran looking away for a split second at a critical moment and then his army melts.
Terran found the solution to this late game in the ghost, but snipe was nerfed to uselessness.
I'm unfamiliar with TvZ late-game, so please don't take this comment to be intentionally clueless or anything, but what is stopping the Terran player from simply making more Ghosts to make up for the decreased effectiveness of Snipe? Is it an issue with supply? Insufficient gas? Not enough time to pump out the Ghosts needed before the Zerg makes their move?
All of the above. You also have the problem with zergs getting to hive tech in a better position nowadays because of the queen/ovie buff and just generally understanding timings/what they can get away with.
I've said from day 1 that if you have a race that depends on timing attacks to win, once people figure out the timings u will never win again. Having to rely on timing attacks is a horrible idea for a game/race and can leave you SEVERELY crippled by metagame shifts.
tvz was the same way though in bw for example. Terran always had that marine timing they would do and it would force zergs to make lings or creep colonies to make them into sunkens. Terran was always on the attack, if he wasn't zerg would be just the same as in sc2 with defiler/ultra/ling and a lot more of it then if terran sat back with bio and did nothing.
Mech was a different story obviously, but same with sc2 if you go mech you don't push early like you do with bio. If you are going to go bio yes you have to put pressure or at least force units. I have found terrans doing a MM timing but not committing to be the most effective. Just forcing zerg to make units and then pulling back (unless you see you can kill him or something) is very effective.
On June 18 2012 07:29 yeint wrote: Fungals make me want to stab kittens.
And that's all that really needs to be said about late game TvZ. Zerg spams ultras, if you make an anti ultra army it dies to brood switch. If zerg spams broods you make vikings and die to ultra switch. The only general purpose unit that could keep the terran alive through these transitions is the marine, and fungal just melts them. Every single late game TvZ I've watched lately ends with the terran looking away for a split second at a critical moment and then his army melts.
Terran found the solution to this late game in the ghost, but snipe was nerfed to uselessness.
I'm unfamiliar with TvZ late-game, so please don't take this comment to be intentionally clueless or anything, but what is stopping the Terran player from simply making more Ghosts to make up for the decreased effectiveness of Snipe? Is it an issue with supply? Insufficient gas? Not enough time to pump out the Ghosts needed before the Zerg makes their move?
All of the above. You also have the problem with zergs getting to hive tech in a better position nowadays because of the queen/ovie buff and just generally understanding timings/what they can get away with.
I've said from day 1 that if you have a race that depends on timing attacks to win, once people figure out the timings u will never win again. Having to rely on timing attacks is a horrible idea for a game/race and can leave you SEVERELY crippled by metagame shifts.
tvz was the same way though in bw for example. Terran always had that marine timing they would do and it would force zergs to make lings or creep colonies to make them into sunkens. Terran was always on the attack, if he wasn't zerg would be just the same as in sc2 with defiler/ultra/ling and a lot more of it then if terran sat back with bio and did nothing.
Mech was a different story obviously, but same with sc2 if you go mech you don't push early like you do with bio. If you are going to go bio yes you have to put pressure or at least force units. I have found terrans doing a MM timing but not committing to be the most effective. Just forcing zerg to make units and then pulling back (unless you see you can kill him or something) is very effective.
TvZ outside of korea was a nightmare in BW except for idra......so ;D SC2 is turning into BW where the game is going to be balanced around the top korean terrans (maps in bw, patches in sc2) and its going to make the race unplayable for pretty much everyone else.
Ravens suck for tvz. Name a high level terran that uses them consistently and also wins tournaments. Also, only three terrans in the RO16 for Dreamhack?
On June 18 2012 07:29 yeint wrote: Fungals make me want to stab kittens.
And that's all that really needs to be said about late game TvZ. Zerg spams ultras, if you make an anti ultra army it dies to brood switch. If zerg spams broods you make vikings and die to ultra switch. The only general purpose unit that could keep the terran alive through these transitions is the marine, and fungal just melts them. Every single late game TvZ I've watched lately ends with the terran looking away for a split second at a critical moment and then his army melts.
Terran found the solution to this late game in the ghost, but snipe was nerfed to uselessness.
I'm unfamiliar with TvZ late-game, so please don't take this comment to be intentionally clueless or anything, but what is stopping the Terran player from simply making more Ghosts to make up for the decreased effectiveness of Snipe? Is it an issue with supply? Insufficient gas? Not enough time to pump out the Ghosts needed before the Zerg makes their move?
All of the above. You also have the problem with zergs getting to hive tech in a better position nowadays because of the queen/ovie buff and just generally understanding timings/what they can get away with.
I've said from day 1 that if you have a race that depends on timing attacks to win, once people figure out the timings u will never win again. Having to rely on timing attacks is a horrible idea for a game/race and can leave you SEVERELY crippled by metagame shifts.
tvz was the same way though in bw for example. Terran always had that marine timing they would do and it would force zergs to make lings or creep colonies to make them into sunkens. Terran was always on the attack, if he wasn't zerg would be just the same as in sc2 with defiler/ultra/ling and a lot more of it then if terran sat back with bio and did nothing.
Mech was a different story obviously, but same with sc2 if you go mech you don't push early like you do with bio. If you are going to go bio yes you have to put pressure or at least force units. I have found terrans doing a MM timing but not committing to be the most effective. Just forcing zerg to make units and then pulling back (unless you see you can kill him or something) is very effective.
TvZ outside of korea was a nightmare in BW except for idra......so ;D SC2 is turning into BW where the game is going to be balanced around the top korean terrans (maps in bw, patches in sc2) and its going to make the race unplayable for pretty much everyone else.
Well the game should be balanced at the highest levels, it might make it hard for foreign terrans to be good but this has been the case even when terran was op. Foreign terrans have never really (except a select few!) been able to do well in tournaments. Most terran tournament wins were korean terrans. I do think it's going to go downt hat path, terran is really strong if you have the apm, multi tasking, macro, etc but at the same time hardest to get really good with due to having to be good at all that.
Also I didn't know that terrans outside of korea in bw struggled as well, thanks for letting me know that is actually interesting to know. I didn't start following bw till june of 09 and was mainly proleague until TSL2, but I don't remember how foreign terrans did or anything.
Again I want to state I do agree zvt is zerg favored, but it's not impossible especially at lower levels, at higher levels it's an issue but at lower levels it's most likely you not balance that is why you are losing.
On June 18 2012 07:29 yeint wrote: Fungals make me want to stab kittens.
And that's all that really needs to be said about late game TvZ. Zerg spams ultras, if you make an anti ultra army it dies to brood switch. If zerg spams broods you make vikings and die to ultra switch. The only general purpose unit that could keep the terran alive through these transitions is the marine, and fungal just melts them. Every single late game TvZ I've watched lately ends with the terran looking away for a split second at a critical moment and then his army melts.
Terran found the solution to this late game in the ghost, but snipe was nerfed to uselessness.
I'm unfamiliar with TvZ late-game, so please don't take this comment to be intentionally clueless or anything, but what is stopping the Terran player from simply making more Ghosts to make up for the decreased effectiveness of Snipe? Is it an issue with supply? Insufficient gas? Not enough time to pump out the Ghosts needed before the Zerg makes their move?
All of the above. You also have the problem with zergs getting to hive tech in a better position nowadays because of the queen/ovie buff and just generally understanding timings/what they can get away with.
I've said from day 1 that if you have a race that depends on timing attacks to win, once people figure out the timings u will never win again. Having to rely on timing attacks is a horrible idea for a game/race and can leave you SEVERELY crippled by metagame shifts.
tvz was the same way though in bw for example. Terran always had that marine timing they would do and it would force zergs to make lings or creep colonies to make them into sunkens. Terran was always on the attack, if he wasn't zerg would be just the same as in sc2 with defiler/ultra/ling and a lot more of it then if terran sat back with bio and did nothing.
Mech was a different story obviously, but same with sc2 if you go mech you don't push early like you do with bio. If you are going to go bio yes you have to put pressure or at least force units. I have found terrans doing a MM timing but not committing to be the most effective. Just forcing zerg to make units and then pulling back (unless you see you can kill him or something) is very effective.
TvZ outside of korea was a nightmare in BW except for idra......so ;D SC2 is turning into BW where the game is going to be balanced around the top korean terrans (maps in bw, patches in sc2) and its going to make the race unplayable for pretty much everyone else.
Well the game should be balanced at the highest levels, it might make it hard for foreign terrans to be good but this has been the case even when terran was op. Foreign terrans have never really (except a select few!) been able to do well in tournaments. Most terran tournament wins were korean terrans. I do think it's going to go downt hat path, terran is really strong if you have the apm, multi tasking, macro, etc but at the same time hardest to get really good with due to having to be good at all that.
Again I want to state I do agree zvt is zerg favored, but it's not impossible especially at lower levels, at higher levels it's an issue but at lower levels it's most likely you not balance that is why you are losing.
I guess, do you think its issue if to win as terran you have to be 10x better than your opponent?
I think that's a problem as already mentioned in the blog. IMO thats pretty bullshit and makes the game not fun/enjoyable to play. Theres tons of situations in sc2 where as terran you can lose the game in a split second but you cant win it. Say TVP, you have to beat 3-4 warpins of the P army to win, but if you lose your army once its pretty much over. thats kinda bullshit.
On June 18 2012 07:51 blade55555 wrote: Again I want to state I do agree zvt is zerg favored, but it's not impossible especially at lower levels, at higher levels it's an issue but at lower levels it's most likely you not balance that is why you are losing.
I agree 100%, in fact TvZ is my best MU. But as to the higher levels, I'm just getting frustrated seeing TvZ after TvZ in tournaments end with melty green marines and three bases mined out.
Why did Blizzard buff Zerg last patch? TvZ was already agreed upon as the MOST balanced matchup back then and now it's right up there with TvP as the worse matchups.
On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote: TvZ is basically unwatchable and unplayable in the current state of sc2. It's a joke of a matchup now.
How can you say that. Terran just has to have perfect splits, never make mistakes, have about 3 times better mechanics and multitasking than the zerg, and it might be a close game. Don't you like challenges?
I, for one, am a high masters player in EU. I haven't won a single TvZ in 3 months that the zerg did not play outright stupidly or doesn't float 2000 minerals, which apparently is something common for masters zerg players.Also, if he did not notice the medivac that went through 3 overlords before going to his base, I might do some damage. For the last 3 months my winrate vZ is about 20%, vs P is about 33% and vs T about 84% with overall win rate about 50% I love playing vs Z and toss though as when I win I feel like a champ (although probably it's my opponent's mistake to let my pesky race win). Anyway, I liked your wall of a post text and don't worry, juggernauts like MVP and MKP will still beat tosses and zergs even when David Kim continues nerfing the shit out of terran for no reason but some secret pact with Idra and Naniwa. Korean juggernaut terrans will prevail no matter the odds. Always!
As for us, the ordinary players, I guess it doesn't hurt playing some ladder. We just have to learn to lose almost all the time and it will all be fine.
On June 18 2012 07:29 yeint wrote: Fungals make me want to stab kittens.
And that's all that really needs to be said about late game TvZ. Zerg spams ultras, if you make an anti ultra army it dies to brood switch. If zerg spams broods you make vikings and die to ultra switch. The only general purpose unit that could keep the terran alive through these transitions is the marine, and fungal just melts them. Every single late game TvZ I've watched lately ends with the terran looking away for a split second at a critical moment and then his army melts.
Terran found the solution to this late game in the ghost, but snipe was nerfed to uselessness.
I'm unfamiliar with TvZ late-game, so please don't take this comment to be intentionally clueless or anything, but what is stopping the Terran player from simply making more Ghosts to make up for the decreased effectiveness of Snipe? Is it an issue with supply? Insufficient gas? Not enough time to pump out the Ghosts needed before the Zerg makes their move?
No terrans can get ghosts and lately I have been seeing ghosts again but not mass ton and it's used to emp/snipe infestors. infestors are what make the broodlord army so strong, if you can get rid of the infestors or take out the energy the broodlords aren't so scary anymore.
I have been seeing it on korea anyway lately and I imagine eventually terrans will realize that ghosts are still good you only need 3-5 again just to get rid emp/snipe infestors before engaging. Since terrans have tech labs anyway it's not like they have to go out of their way, instead of making 3-5 marauders you make 3-5 ghosts one time. I have found it a lot stronger then not getting them (I still think zvt is zerg favored, but not as bad as some people are saying).
Dreamhack and GSTL would like to have a word with you!
I agree, ZvT favors Zerg at the moment. The overlord buff was very significant, it's almost impossible for terrans to hide their tech path now. Giving Zerg the ability to scout an opponent is a good thing though. The real problem is that Zerg is now able to go into the late game against Terran on an even footing. The late game scenario of ZvT is inherently broken. There really is no counter to BL infestor corruptor for Terran players. If I had a suggestion for balance it would be to change snipe damage close to what it used to be. Zerg and Terran seem to be even in the early and mid-game.
It's late game that's the problem. Most Code S Terrans with the exception of Polt play to win the game in the early to mid-game because of how bad TvZ is in the late game. Fix snipe, that's my balance suggestion.
You could try meching- as a Zerg I have more difficult time dealing with mech than other styles of play.
Otherwise I agree with you. Zerg is rather favored in TvZ right now...at least from my perspective in mid masters. The solution? I'm really not sure, because Zerg is pretty helpless against protoss right now. The only thing that works in terms of timings is the Stephano style roach max, which is pretty all in. Otherwise it's Broodlords, but Protoss can counter them very effectively with stalkers/mothership/archon.
My point is that perhaps Terran have to figure TvZ out, because simply nerfing Zerg just makes it harder for them to deal with Protoss. If you don't want to play Mech you could experiment with aggressive thirds and then laying down the pressure while taking your fourth and gearing up for the late game. Marineking has a lot of success with this and a lot of maps (Ohana and Antiga specifically... and also Cloud Kingdom comes to mind. Maybe the new map? )
In any case, the main issue at hand is that there needs to be a huge shift in style by T while Z plays like they have always played. In my opinion this is bad oversight and game design by Blizzard but there is not much we can do about that.
Good Luck and stay strong, all races had dark times.
Steel, wouldn't a snipe un-nerf be a perfect solution? It wouldn't affect any of the other TvX matchups at all, and it would not require nerfing the Z directly.
On June 18 2012 07:29 yeint wrote: Fungals make me want to stab kittens.
And that's all that really needs to be said about late game TvZ. Zerg spams ultras, if you make an anti ultra army it dies to brood switch. If zerg spams broods you make vikings and die to ultra switch. The only general purpose unit that could keep the terran alive through these transitions is the marine, and fungal just melts them. Every single late game TvZ I've watched lately ends with the terran looking away for a split second at a critical moment and then his army melts.
Terran found the solution to this late game in the ghost, but snipe was nerfed to uselessness.
I'm unfamiliar with TvZ late-game, so please don't take this comment to be intentionally clueless or anything, but what is stopping the Terran player from simply making more Ghosts to make up for the decreased effectiveness of Snipe? Is it an issue with supply? Insufficient gas? Not enough time to pump out the Ghosts needed before the Zerg makes their move?
No terrans can get ghosts and lately I have been seeing ghosts again but not mass ton and it's used to emp/snipe infestors. infestors are what make the broodlord army so strong, if you can get rid of the infestors or take out the energy the broodlords aren't so scary anymore.
I have been seeing it on korea anyway lately and I imagine eventually terrans will realize that ghosts are still good you only need 3-5 again just to get rid emp/snipe infestors before engaging. Since terrans have tech labs anyway it's not like they have to go out of their way, instead of making 3-5 marauders you make 3-5 ghosts one time. I have found it a lot stronger then not getting them (I still think zvt is zerg favored, but not as bad as some people are saying).
Dreamhack and GSTL would like to have a word with you!
Well I am not going to count dreamhack as there aren't that many korean terrans (who are way better then foreign terrans sad truth but truth non the less xD, foreign terrans have always been a tier below).
But also as with any new patch the race that gets it is going to look super good for 2-4 weeks. I remember in an MLG when rax before supply depo got changed to have to get supply depo vs rax. Idra won that mlg (I think that was the mlg with that patch?). Zergs did very well, terrans said they would never be able to win tvz again because you can't play macro. This was obviously disproven.
Now I was surprised at the queen buff to, I agreed with the overlord buff but the queen buff was really random. I do think right now obviously zerg is hardcore favored zvt, is it still going to be the same in 2 weeks? Maybe, maybe not. I have tried to not think about balance when another patch goes through since zerg got the infestor nerf or w/e. I remember being one of those zergs who said with the infestor nerf that zerg will never beat protoss and stuff like that.
I was obviously proven and many others hardcore wrong. I do imagine this will be reverted unless terrans figure something out which could happen, but I imagine it'll be reverted. Time will tell.
On June 18 2012 08:03 yeint wrote: Steel, wouldn't a snipe un-nerf be a perfect solution? It wouldn't affect any of the other TvX matchups at all, and it would not require nerfing the Z directly.
If snipe was un-nerfed then zvt would go back to how it was moving back then. Terran would go bio and sit back, get a ton of ghosts and snipe every high tier zerg unit thus making bl/ultra useless again. I don't know the best way to help terran out late game, but if snipe goes as strong as it was last game then it's going to go back to mass ghost and win.
On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote: TvZ is basically unwatchable and unplayable in the current state of sc2. It's a joke of a matchup now.
How can you say that. Terran just has to have perfect splits, never make mistakes, have about 3 times better mechanics and multitasking than the zerg, and it might be a close game. Don't you like challenges?
I, for one, am a high masters player in EU. I haven't won a single TvZ in 3 months that the zerg did not play outright stupidly or doesn't float 2000 minerals, which apparently is something common for masters zerg players.Also, if he did not notice the medivac that went through 3 overlords before going to his base, I might do some damage. For the last 3 months my winrate vZ is about 20%, vs P is about 33% and vs T about 84% with overall win rate about 50% I love playing vs Z and toss though as when I win I feel like a champ (although probably it's my opponent's mistake to let my pesky race win). Anyway, I liked your wall of a post text and don't worry, juggernauts like MVP and MKP will still beat tosses and zergs even when David Kim continues nerfing the shit out of terran for no reason but some secret pact with Idra and Naniwa. Korean juggernaut terrans will prevail no matter the odds. Always!
As for us, the ordinary players, I guess it doesn't hurt playing some ladder. We just have to learn to lose almost all the time and it will all be fine.
I agree with all of this rofl. When I win it vs P and Z it doesn't even feel good. I load up the replay and find out I was spending great and felt like I was microing fine and it turns out I only won because the Z or P had like 2k minerals or no upgrades or something ;\
I feel like this has always been the case, even for pvz. Hasn't zerg always had too much control the entire game? Whenever they don't see something coming its their own fault because it is certainly always possible to suicide overlords / lings and scatter lings / lords everywhere on the map + clutch queens and moving static defense ...
Well, can't say for sure yet as terrans always seems to manage a way to win, but this is probably gonna be the most difficult terran nerf/zerg buff to overcome in sc2 history. At least when something else was nerfed you'd get terrans making some new crazy early game builds, but now queens cover just about everything you can throw at them. Any sort of uncertainty and guessing game is gone from the zerg's POV and it's almost like playing with maphacks in that sense. So early game is gone, and mid game and late game was nerfed prior to this. I don't really see how raven helps here to stop the problems that came from all the prior nerfs/buffs. Stops creep a bit, but doesn't help the eco/late game.
While I am not a terran myself I do enjoy watching Fitzy play ZvT. His style is pretty unique end game, but it's starting to trend a bit more. And with the new buffs to queens and full time pro players picking up on it... I can see how there can be problems for terran. In my opinion a lot of the same issues that apply to how Terran plays early game apply to Protoss as well with the last patch.
The only "real" thing I've seen some Protoss players do to change the meta game a lot is not take 3/4th gases so it looks like an early rush, but just cannon expand a 3rd expo while walling your ramp to natural and just defend ur third. It's a completely different way to play the match up... but I think with how the adjustments to the game have come along people either need to start doing things like that.. or of course, it's going to be like running your head into a brick wall if they can just see what's coming and you do it anyway.
Though, I will add, I still find it incredibly tough as you noted that games vs Zerg, or well.. almost any race vs race in this game, can sometimes just instantly be over. Last night I was playing some practice games and finally realized why my mothership wasn't casting vortex when I told it to, even when casting inside the radius of the spell. If you are moving a mothership and tell it to vortex is takes like 2-3 in game seconds for it to slow down and then cast... This really really creates problems for double vortexing incredibly strong Z armies, and often just gets u neural parisited before the second one goes off if it's moving. And that's about your only hope vs 18 broods 16 infestors 10 corruptors 16 queens and 58472347394 spines. T_T
Snipe un-nerf isn't even necessary, it's the Queen buff that needs to be removed.
If you watched high-level tournaments before the Queen buff, TvZ was a great matchup - generally 50/50 all the time, exciting back and forth games, etc. For some reason, David Kim didn't like an even matchup though. :/
On June 18 2012 08:00 Torenhire wrote: No shock a zerg player has no rebuttal but an old blog lol
I think the point was that I've read this somewhere before
Yeah, who knows, who cares, every 2 months there's always something new to complain about in SC2, when they nerf zerg next there will be somehow a crazy new imba, or maybe every game will just be mmm again, who knows.
I don't expect much to be changed until HOTS is released. The tears will flow and the game will still be very boring in almost every lategame matchup. Archon toilets, inf/BL, colossi colossi colossi, choose your own misadventure.
On June 18 2012 08:03 blade55555 wrote: If snipe was un-nerfed then zvt would go back to how it was moving back then. Terran would go bio and sit back, get a ton of ghosts and snipe every high tier zerg unit thus making bl/ultra useless again. I don't know the best way to help terran out late game, but if snipe goes as strong as it was last game then it's going to go back to mass ghost and win.
I don't think that's a given since Z is stronger early game and the maps are far bigger now. I think it's fine for mass Ghosts to decimate Hive units because they're so terrible against midgame units, and if you balance via maps you can give Z a chance to come back with a big unit swell.
Since terran transitions take so long (no larva stockpiling, no warpin), I think it's absolutely necessary for them to have a single unit that can deal with both Hive units.
On June 18 2012 08:08 Itsmedudeman wrote: Well, can't say for sure yet as terrans always seems to manage a way to win, but this is probably gonna be the most difficult terran nerf/zerg buff to overcome in sc2 history. At least when something else was nerfed you'd get terrans making some new crazy early game builds, but now queens cover just about everything you can throw at them. Any sort of uncertainty and guessing game is gone from the zerg's POV and it's almost like playing with maphacks in that sense. So early game is gone, and mid game and late game was nerfed prior to this. I don't really see how raven helps here to stop the problems that came from all the prior nerfs/buffs. Stops creep a bit, but doesn't help the eco/late game.
Honestly I would rather have top terran players just keep losing and doing bad so the game designers can wake up. Every single terran unit has been utilized for some kind of aggressive opening to stop greedy droning, but the sad fact is that 5-6 queens and 2 spines beat every single kind of attack before ten minutes. No competent zerg loses to any kind of timing attack these days and if you don't succeed in killing a fair amount of drones you might as well just leave.
On June 18 2012 08:09 t.Swift wrote: Snipe un-nerf isn't even necessary, it's the Queen buff that needs to be removed.
If you watched high-level tournaments before the Queen buff, TvZ was a great matchup - generally 50/50 all the time, exciting back and forth games, etc. For some reason, David Kim didn't like an even matchup though. :/
I definitely agree because I find SC2 a lot better to watch if most games are decided in the midgame, with the occasional long game and the occasional quick game. Early game aggression is a lot more exciting than maxed army clashes.
But if their desire is to make the matchup balanced at all stages of the game, they need to fix lategame TvZ instead of making it harder for the game to get there.
Again, personally I think the game is far better to watch if getting to the lategame is the exception rather than the norm.
On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote: Why can zerg exploit the greediest terran mofo around but terran cant do the same to zerg anymore?
I don't know how I feel about the matchup but I really, really agree with this. As a terran I personally don't like how MKP plays because it's so greedy and exploitable, a lot of his builds don't seem to be able to hold a lot of zerg aggression. However on the flip side, after watching a certain someone open 3 hatch before the 5 minute mark with 9 queens, and 0 units other than drones and overlords, it's uncomfortable. The way I see it, the best builds are either sick timings, or some form of mech which aims to go super late game with max upgrades and a ton of ravens with hsm.
I would really like to see a raven speed buff. I mean, even faster acceleration. It's already a slow unit to begin with, which reminds me of the mother ship(bad); it should be a flying spell caster, not a mega game ender.
Luckyfool I was going to make a SC2 general section post about TvZ, but you beat me to it here. I may still make one, because I feel no pro is going to come out and say how bullshit it's become after the queen change. * bro hi five * for having the balls to make a post about it
On June 18 2012 07:29 yeint wrote: Fungals make me want to stab kittens.
And that's all that really needs to be said about late game TvZ. Zerg spams ultras, if you make an anti ultra army it dies to brood switch. If zerg spams broods you make vikings and die to ultra switch. The only general purpose unit that could keep the terran alive through these transitions is the marine, and fungal just melts them. Every single late game TvZ I've watched lately ends with the terran looking away for a split second at a critical moment and then his army melts.
Terran found the solution to this late game in the ghost, but snipe was nerfed to uselessness.
I'm unfamiliar with TvZ late-game, so please don't take this comment to be intentionally clueless or anything, but what is stopping the Terran player from simply making more Ghosts to make up for the decreased effectiveness of Snipe? Is it an issue with supply? Insufficient gas? Not enough time to pump out the Ghosts needed before the Zerg makes their move?
In the situation he described, ghosts work perfectly.
The blizz devs stated very clearly at MLG that their internal statistics are showing tvz to be "balanced" right now. Even it there really is something wrong, it will be months before they take action. Might as well dig your heels in and keeping fighting.
On June 18 2012 08:23 avilo wrote: Luckyfool I was going to make a SC2 general section post about TvZ, but you beat me to it here. I may still make one, because I feel no pro is going to come out and say how bullshit it's become after the queen change. * bro hi five * for having the balls to make a post about it
To be honest you have thought zerg was broken for like 2 years now. Anyone who takes your opinion on tvz balance is silly, while it is actually zerg favored this time, we can just go look at the past to see how many times you have said terran should never beat zerg and did over half the time at those periods of time, especially when non ladder maps were being used.
Oh yeah, I just thought I would add a tid bit here just to point out how bad it is right now. You guys remember how bad TvP lategame currently is still and how everyone was complaining so much (rightfully so) that it's too easy for Protoss?
Well, the reason you have not heard much TvP complaints in the past 1-2 weeks is not because those issues have gone away - the TvP lategame issues are still there nothing has been done to change them. It's because the TvZ match-up is in worse shape now than even TvP lategame, which really speaks for itself to be quite honest.
On June 18 2012 08:23 avilo wrote: Luckyfool I was going to make a SC2 general section post about TvZ, but you beat me to it here. I may still make one, because I feel no pro is going to come out and say how bullshit it's become after the queen change. * bro hi five * for having the balls to make a post about it
To be honest you have thought zerg was broken for like 2 years now. Anyone who takes your opinion on tvz balance is silly, while it is actually zerg favored this time, we can just go look at the past to see how many times you have said terran should never beat zerg and did over half the time at those periods of time, especially when non ladder maps were being used.
Stop talking a) mis-quoting/out of context stuff from me. I gave feedback in the beta and when things were crazy such as 1 SUPPLY ROACHES. Get your facts straight. And please, don't throw out random out of context shit from 2+ years ago.
b) There is a legitimate problem right now, with Terran lategame in general, but the TvZ is taking the forefront right now because of just how bad it is compared to even TvP lategame.
I feel like Zerg is a little favored in the matchup largely because Terran is having issues doing any inhibiting damage early-mid game with the recent queen range buff. That said, I also feel like Terrans are kind of in the same situation that a lot of Protoss were in a few months ago when the 11:30 200/200 roach bomb came into play, in that they are so comfortable with an antiquated and figured out playstyle that they're all having issues transitioning out of it.
I'm a master Z player, and it's fucking retarded how Terrans will still get 6-8 hellions out and think they're going to do any damage to the surplus of creep-spreading queens and good wall-ins that Zergs have started using. Reactored hellions have been an opening since GSL season 2, and it's feel and timings have been fleshed out and widely documented. We're sort of in the same situation that Zergs were in when mutaling/bling was being figured out and completely dissected. Time to start doing things a bit different, IMO.
All this said though, the queen range does need to be looked at.
On June 18 2012 07:31 aRRoSC2 wrote: yeint, first you complain about fungals. then you complain about snipe nerf. you realize infestors take 2 snipes to kill after the "nerf" instead of 3 right?
That's not the problem, the problem is snipe not being effective against Hive tech units anymore. Unlike in TvP (or HTs in PvZ), ghosts are utterly useless against the main army.
Terran builds too slowly and requires too much specialized infrastructure to afford a one trick pony unit.
You make a good point about the general utility of ghosts in TvZ, but I also feel that you're missing some nuances in this comparison; if your ghosts do great in PvT (EMP most Templars / Sentries and a big chunk of the army's shields), they'll give you a big advantage, but they won't destroy the Protoss because Protoss isn't crippled if he has no HTs with energy (they can always morph into Archons). On the other hand, Zerg usually invests a lot more supply and gas into Infestors than Protoss does on HTs vT, and Zerg relies on Infestor support much more heavily as well; if you manage to strip the Zerg army of all Infestor support in late game TvZ, Zerg is pretty horribly crippled, whether they are using Ultras that can never catch properly microed Terran units or slow Brood Lords that can't run away and have no hope of winning a straight up fight without Infestor support.
So yes, Ghosts are mostly only capable of countering Infestors in TvZ, but countering infestors can be just what T needs to win the game because infestors are so damn strong.
On a sidenote: After the Snipe nerf, are Ghosts still good vs. Mutas? I've never seen Ghost vs. Muta after the nerf.
In TvP you can at least do things to exploit a greedy protoss, and can hide builds with good turret positioning/scanning to snipe obs. plus there are lots of good timings for terran in that matchup in general.
On a side note, Dreamhack has just 3 terrans in the top 16, 2 of which have to play tvz right away tomorrow. I feel sorry for Keen and Brat_Ok.
On June 18 2012 08:37 Denzil wrote: Sounds like for the first time since Starcraft 2's inception Terrans aren't steamrolling everyone.
God forbid you need to change the way you play like Protoss had to and Zerg has had to.
Time to change.
Terrans have been changing the way they play after every nerf patch. Just because you, the mighty Denzil, don't acknowledge it, doesn't mean it hasn't been so in reality.
In fact, every time they did change their way, it got nerfed. So much so, that right now there are only 3 viable openings.
1 rax 3 cc and 15cc into whatever and cloak banshee, which is gimmicky as fuck.
And every one of those builds has an autoloss scenario if you didn't scout zerg perectly.
On June 18 2012 08:45 TERRANLOL wrote: You guys aren't excited for the impending patch? lol Terran hasn't been patched in forever. What will we get? a thor buff? THINK OF THE POSSIBILITIES
On June 18 2012 08:38 Bobo_XIII wrote: I feel like Zerg is a little favored in the matchup largely because Terran is having issues doing any inhibiting damage early-mid game with the recent queen range buff. That said, I also feel like Terrans are kind of in the same situation that a lot of Protoss were in a few months ago when the 11:30 200/200 roach bomb came into play, in that they are so comfortable with an antiquated and figured out playstyle that they're all having issues transitioning out of it.
I'm a master Z player, and it's fucking retarded how Terrans will still get 6-8 hellions out and think they're going to do any damage to the surplus of creep-spreading queens and good wall-ins that Zergs have started using. Reactored hellions have been an opening since GSL season 2, and it's feel and timings have been fleshed out and widely documented. We're sort of in the same situation that Zergs were in when mutaling/bling was being figured out and completely dissected. Time to start doing things a bit different, IMO.
All this said though, the queen range does need to be looked at.
I don't know what kind of players you're playing, but nobody that's not god-awful opens reactor hellions anymore. The only opener that involves hellions that you will see these days is 1rax fe into reactor hellion banshee, or 1raxfe/15cc into fast third with 4 hellions so that you can hope to scout an incoming allin.
TvZ is a complete joke these days, and most top terrans are just coinflipping (15cc into 3rd off 1/2rax for example), or praying that zerg gets supply blocked for half an hour and floats 2k/1k. Ravens seem like they have potential, but it takes 10 minutes to get a useful amount of them.
It's funny that I don't seem to be the only one that has a 30% winrate TvP and TvZ, yet I almost never lose TvT. I'm not sure what that actually means, but it's rather interesting.
As a top masters terran i just find it really hard with what i do if i try to play really greedy and it gets scouted (ols so fast zzzzz) they can counter me, do damage and drone up behind it to get ahead.
Currently TvZ as of late has become my worst matchup overnight i'm not complaining though i've been getting better with it because i've gone back to Marine Marauder Tank Ghost Viking mid-late game. Ghosts for the sole purpose of snipe for infestors (bonus damage to psyonic too good!) and nuke harass.
still with my tactics i mostly lose to high mobility flanks in my army (i have like mad slow stuff yo! >~>) or midgame all in attacks to stop my greediness or just a small mistake where i lose my army to like 30 banelings because i lag (my computer is really bad TT;)
Right now its not looking too good for Terran players because also TvP is extremely hard as well but hopfully we just keep fighting and figure out stuff.
As far as 2 base timings to throw off zerg players i kind of gave up on those builds now because they just don't really work. Queens are op and scouting is made way easier for zerg especially with the way the maps hard they easily tuck OLs away in every nook and cranny. TT;
On June 18 2012 08:38 Bobo_XIII wrote: I feel like Zerg is a little favored in the matchup largely because Terran is having issues doing any inhibiting damage early-mid game with the recent queen range buff. That said, I also feel like Terrans are kind of in the same situation that a lot of Protoss were in a few months ago when the 11:30 200/200 roach bomb came into play, in that they are so comfortable with an antiquated and figured out playstyle that they're all having issues transitioning out of it.
I'm a master Z player, and it's fucking retarded how Terrans will still get 6-8 hellions out and think they're going to do any damage to the surplus of creep-spreading queens and good wall-ins that Zergs have started using. Reactored hellions have been an opening since GSL season 2, and it's feel and timings have been fleshed out and widely documented. We're sort of in the same situation that Zergs were in when mutaling/bling was being figured out and completely dissected. Time to start doing things a bit different, IMO.
All this said though, the queen range does need to be looked at.
I don't know what kind of players you're playing, but nobody that's not god-awful opens reactor hellions anymore. The only opener that involves hellions that you will see these days is 1rax fe into reactor hellion banshee, or 1raxfe/15cc into fast third with 4 hellions so that you can hope to scout an incoming allin.
TvZ is a complete joke these days, and most top terrans are just coinflipping (15cc into 3rd off 1/2rax for example), or praying that zerg gets supply blocked for half an hour and floats 2k/1k. Ravens seem like they have potential, but it takes 10 minutes to get a useful amount of them.
It's funny that I don't seem to be the only one that has a 30% winrate TvP and TvZ, yet I almost never lose TvT. I'm not sure what that actually means, but it's rather interesting.
Yeah, you're right; I worded that poorly. You guys open a variant of early CC these days, but people are still really inclined to dump all their shit into hellions in some form or fashion immediately after
On June 18 2012 08:38 Bobo_XIII wrote: I feel like Zerg is a little favored in the matchup largely because Terran is having issues doing any inhibiting damage early-mid game with the recent queen range buff. That said, I also feel like Terrans are kind of in the same situation that a lot of Protoss were in a few months ago when the 11:30 200/200 roach bomb came into play, in that they are so comfortable with an antiquated and figured out playstyle that they're all having issues transitioning out of it.
I'm a master Z player, and it's fucking retarded how Terrans will still get 6-8 hellions out and think they're going to do any damage to the surplus of creep-spreading queens and good wall-ins that Zergs have started using. Reactored hellions have been an opening since GSL season 2, and it's feel and timings have been fleshed out and widely documented. We're sort of in the same situation that Zergs were in when mutaling/bling was being figured out and completely dissected. Time to start doing things a bit different, IMO.
All this said though, the queen range does need to be looked at.
I don't know what kind of players you're playing, but nobody that's not god-awful opens reactor hellions anymore. The only opener that involves hellions that you will see these days is 1rax fe into reactor hellion banshee, or 1raxfe/15cc into fast third with 4 hellions so that you can hope to scout an incoming allin.
TvZ is a complete joke these days, and most top terrans are just coinflipping (15cc into 3rd off 1/2rax for example), or praying that zerg gets supply blocked for half an hour and floats 2k/1k. Ravens seem like they have potential, but it takes 10 minutes to get a useful amount of them.
It's funny that I don't seem to be the only one that has a 30% winrate TvP and TvZ, yet I almost never lose TvT. I'm not sure what that actually means, but it's rather interesting.
Yeah, you're right; I worded that poorly. You guys open a variant of early CC these days, but people are still really inclined to dump all their shit into hellions in some form or fashion immediately after
Everything else does even less damage and does even less to barely control creep spread.
On June 18 2012 08:37 Denzil wrote: Sounds like for the first time since Starcraft 2's inception Terrans aren't steamrolling everyone.
God forbid you need to change the way you play like Protoss had to and Zerg has had to.
Time to change.
The first sentence isn't even correct on the foreigner scene.
You actually mean....the MVP and MMA's of the world aren't rolling Zergs anymore -- and keep in mind, this is talking about TvZ.
Other than Thorzain and maybe Kas or Select, there aren't many other foreign Terrans who have actually won playing management games against other notable Zerg players. Maps have changed drastically as well. Funny thing is, TvZ has been the worst matchup of almost every notable foreign Terran even with the shitty small maps of a year ago. I don't ever remember Thorzain, Kas, Lucifron, Sjow, Select, etc. having good, or at the very least, notable TvZ. The 'upsets' that those guys have scored over Koreans over the past two years have predominantly come against other Terrans and Protosses (bad Korean Protosses were a dime a dozen back then).
The asymmetrical balance that Blizzard so idiotically tries to enforce no longer really exists on maps like Daybreak.
For around a year all terran had to ever make was marines and medivacs and the occasional tank if it got that far in TvZ, don't you enjoy the idea of exploring the tech options you have available in the starport? I have heard ravens and sky terran late game with ghosts is pretty effective... Just saying. If people can't beat zergs because they can't play well enough to beat zergs, that just means that this game might not be shit after all and higher levels of play might be required to actually be good. Wouldn't it feel good if you won games because you knew 100% that you outplayed your opponent?
On June 18 2012 08:37 Denzil wrote: Sounds like for the first time since Starcraft 2's inception Terrans aren't steamrolling everyone.
God forbid you need to change the way you play like Protoss had to and Zerg has had to.
Time to change.
These types of comments I keep seeing are just idiotic comments. So just because of past imbalances, the game has to be balanced so that the other races now "OP"? The point of balance patches is to make every match-up balanced in the present regardless of the past.
And do you think Terrans never had to change up their style even when they were "OP"?
Also Protosses and Zergs had tons of help to the insane amount of Terran nerfs and map pool changes. Changing up their style would have never worked on a consistent basis when 1/1/1 and proxy 2 raxes into SCV rushes were the norm. Terrans would have found a different timing to abuse.
I don't even play Terran (Protoss for that matter) and mostly watch pro games. The fact of the matter is the queen change unnecessarily ruined a match-up which was for the most part fun to watch and balanced (overlord change was fine on its own, though). I don't really care if it would be balanced in say 2 months when Terrans have found a way to deal with it, I just think that it's a legitimate concern when Blizzard patches unnecessarily and the fix is counter-intuitive. It means as a viewer, I'll have to deal with 2 months of Terrans losing or really weird/bad TvZs (which were prior to this very good).
On June 18 2012 08:52 aike wrote: I like how this balance whine is in the "featured blogs"
Yeah, the material in it is not fit for featured blogs, and even worse, it's a balance whine in featured blogs ;/
It's my opinion which is why I post as a blog and not in general. Everything I say is subjective and just my personal opinion. Anyone is free to agree or disagree with it. If people see this purely as balance whining I don't really know what to say, they are issues I think are serious problems for the competitiveness of the game if people aren't allowed to talk about it then I'm not sure where we're headed in the future of this game.
Zerg needed help scouting. The OL patch, by itself, I think would have been a lot, if not too much. A speed buff that wasn't this fast may have been more optimal. Anyways...
...the queen range seems to be the real problem. You know something's broken when you are seeing 6,7 and 8 queens off of 3 bases sometimes. Why not? They are fast on creep, and when combined with lings can make a dangerous army. I started thinking it was broken when I started noticing it a lot in ZvZ. I don't know how many times now I've gone into my opponents natural with my roaches, ready for the roach war, and found their roaches backed up by 6 or 7 queens, with a gorgeous range and Xfusing the hell out of the roaches.
And why not? A zerg would be silly not to make a ton of these units now. You see huge packs of queens fighting off 4 gate pushes and marine pressure. It's too much. The unit has gone passed the balance point- it serves too many purposes and makes the game too hard to play. I am a Zerg, and I want to see Zergs like Idra and Ret and Stephano do better (yes even BETTER) but not like this... nothing maters when the race is just broken.
Something needs to be scaled back. And, I will restate once again, what I have said from the beginning in regards to Blizzard patching. FIX ONE THING. PER PATCH. ONE. That way it is easy to qantify what changed and what effects it had. With a buff to OL and to Queen, we get to debate endlessly about what the problem really is. Also, don't be affraid to revert changes. IMHO, keep OL speed and revert queen range immediately.
I think the results from Korean leagues speak for themselves. God of terran MVP:
Lately, there is talk of Zerg being OP.
There’s a reason I aimed only for third place. Lately, my win rate for TvZ and TvP are only at 30% or so. The only reason a Zerg or Protoss loses in a broadcasted match is because they don’t play their best. Unless those races make a mistake, it’s really hard for Terran to win. Until we come up with something new, it’ll continue to be hard for Terrans. Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg.
I agreed with you up to the TvP comment. Wasn't that historically the most balanced mu? I know it was hard to play at the lower levels but I certainly don't think it was anywhere near what TvZ is now
On June 18 2012 08:13 FinestHour wrote: [...] the sad fact is that 5-6 queens and 2 spines beat every single kind of attack before ten minutes. No competent zerg loses to any kind of timing attack these days and if you don't succeed in killing a fair amount of drones you might as well just leave.
5-6 queens and 2 spines? are you suggesting that the zerg investing 1100 minerals into purely defensive units should be insufficient to hold an all-in? if you made 7 bunkers and took a fast 3rd, would you be upset to lose to an all-in? probably.
ghost nerf was absolutely necessary. The idea that you could mass just ghosts and completely counter every zerg unit was horrible.
I can't find it now but someone else said that terran 'can't afford to be building ghosts because all they do is counter infestors' which is insane, because if you get rid of the infestors, you can kill any zerg composition with marine tank, including broods.
not that you ever as terran need to actually engage broods. for all you complaining about how the big maps favour zerg, think about trying to get your infestor brood force across one of them. NIGHTMARE. terran can drop 2 of your bases, while just walking his army around yours and countering.
fast 3rd base strats are the way to go. maybe it's just me, but i feel like every zvt i play i think at some point 'wow, i really hope he hasn't taken a 3rd yet because i'd have no way to pressure it with these lings, i'm just starting infestors and i can't really be aggressive until i have ultras'
but i hear that that is stupid, so i won't say that.
personally, i win most of my zvt, but i won most of the macro zvts i played before, i just died to hellion runbys more back then. I suck at zvp, so i think my MMR is dropped by my zvp to the point where i'm facing weaker terrans than i should.
I find that zvp feels to me the OP says tvz feels to him. No chance to pressure, no all-in for them to be scared of, forced to just try to be greedy and hope that i can predict and counter any all-in without sacrificing my chance to get to broods, which are just as clumsy and slow in zvp as they are in zvt.
I play terran aswell, but mvp also said that terran was the weakest race back when gsl was like 70-80% terrans. They do need to revert the zerg buffs pointless buffs that screwed the game up horribly
- Mid-game hellion harass, drops and runbys. This was popular for a short window then completely fell out of favor after a small nerf. They're still undeniably deadly. Imagine today's terrans' multi-tasking with marine drops applied to constant hellion pressure instead.
- Thors, in general. 3/3 thors are extremely effective against both ultralisks and brood lords, even now you see good terrans making them instead of tanks in the late-game, but with bad upgrades. Don't forget about repair.
- Viking harass on overlords. Mutalisk play isn't as popular anymore. It takes 4 vikings two shots to kill an overlord. Deny their scouting, screw with their rallies, force the queens to defend them while you clean up creep. Scout.
- Ravens. Auto-turret: why not use these like forcefields? They form a solid wall, with upgrades they can easily absorb the 'shock' of ling-ultra engaging a tank line (tried this in-game and it works amazingly well, if you get the engi bay upgrades. it's like a mobile wall of depots). Seeker Missile: this one is iffy, but it's gaining ground and more terrans are using it to counter corruptors. Detection: creep spread is arguably the #1 problem for terrans right now, save scans and use banshees or hellions to clean it up and the zerg has a hell of a time replacing it. This makes lings dramatically weaker.
- BCs. They die fast to corruptors, but combined with thor splash and seeker missiles, I don't know. How would a zerg respond to max-upgrades thor-raven-battlecruiser? Just something to try.
Marine-tank-medivac is obviously dying, so naturally terrans will want a patch to make it good again. They've put thousands of hours of practice into these units, and changing styles is basically like changing races. But I think that before Blizzard jumps into action and band-aids the metagame, they should leave a long enough period for us to determine if a patch is really necessary.
Imagine how different Starcraft would be if Blizzard had just patched PvZ before Bisu came along.
Look... if you're having under 50% win ratio in your matchups, it's not balance, it's because you suck and you fell behind the curve of top competition.
Foreignor terrans wouldn't beat someone like DRG or Nestea very often in ZvT anyway. It's not because of balance, it's because they aren't as good as the other player.
TLPD graphs show that most matchups are DAMN close to 50%. And think about it this way.. a sample size is only so big. I
Imagine a bo5 series, where 3/5 games MVP decides to do a greedy macro style build, and is metagamed by his zerg opponent, and loses 0-3 for Terran. On the contrary, MMA is playing a simultaneous bo5 in professional play, where he tries an all in strategy three/5 games and wins 3-0 for Terran. Also, we have someone foreign terran player playing against a korean zerg in an online tournament. The terran tries his best but loses 1-2 in some very macro oriented games. ^^ Do you see where "win rates" don't mean shit? One terran tried macro play and got metagamed. Those count as losses. One terran all inned and won. Those are wins. One terran won and also lost, playing macro games. Im sure another terran lost 0-2 doing all ins. Add in every player's personal style, and skill gaps that happen in tournaments from easy/hard brackets... and your "TLPD winrates" don't mean jack shit.
You can take this further when certain progamers play other progamers. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses; some players study their opponent better than others; some are better or worse at exploiting weaknesses in certain situations, and some are slightly better or worse at exploiting advantages, etc....Wanna go further? Add "fate" into the equation....
As far as all of your personal ladder matches--> there's no golden rule that says you ever have to be 50% in any of your matchups. If you're 30% at TvZ, it's because you suck at it.
I personally lose constantly vs terran, despite your claims of "imbalance". I am high masters/ relatively high master on kor as well.
On June 18 2012 08:13 FinestHour wrote: [...] the sad fact is that 5-6 queens and 2 spines beat every single kind of attack before ten minutes. No competent zerg loses to any kind of timing attack these days and if you don't succeed in killing a fair amount of drones you might as well just leave.
5-6 queens and 2 spines? are you suggesting that the zerg investing 1100 minerals into purely defensive units should be insufficient to hold an all-in? if you made 7 bunkers and took a fast 3rd, would you be upset to lose to an all-in? probably.
ghost nerf was absolutely necessary. The idea that you could mass just ghosts and completely counter every zerg unit was horrible.
I can't find it now but someone else said that terran 'can't afford to be building ghosts because all they do is counter infestors' which is insane, because if you get rid of the infestors, you can kill any zerg composition with marine tank, including broods.
not that you ever as terran need to actually engage broods. for all you complaining about how the big maps favour zerg, think about trying to get your infestor brood force across one of them. NIGHTMARE. terran can drop 2 of your bases, while just walking his army around yours and countering.
fast 3rd base strats are the way to go. maybe it's just me, but i feel like every zvt i play i think at some point 'wow, i really hope he hasn't taken a 3rd yet because i'd have no way to pressure it with these lings, i'm just starting infestors and i can't really be aggressive until i have ultras'
but i hear that that is stupid, so i won't say that.
personally, i win most of my zvt, but i won most of the macro zvts i played before, i just died to hellion runbys more back then. I suck at zvp, so i think my MMR is dropped by my zvp to the point where i'm facing weaker terrans than i should.
I find that zvp feels to me the OP says tvz feels to him. No chance to pressure, no all-in for them to be scared of, forced to just try to be greedy and hope that i can predict and counter any all-in without sacrificing my chance to get to broods, which are just as clumsy and slow in zvp as they are in zvt.
Making a ton of bunkers as terran and playing absolutely defensive with no map presence and making a bunch of queens that hold off everything and contribute to insanely fast creep spread are completely different. Also the OP also wants to find a way to open with a macro style the doesn't straight up to die to a allin, which zerg is now totally safe from if he is competent at all. You seem to be missing the main points of the blog, I suggest you re-read it again.
On June 18 2012 08:13 FinestHour wrote: [...] the sad fact is that 5-6 queens and 2 spines beat every single kind of attack before ten minutes. No competent zerg loses to any kind of timing attack these days and if you don't succeed in killing a fair amount of drones you might as well just leave.
5-6 queens and 2 spines? are you suggesting that the zerg investing 1100 minerals into purely defensive units should be insufficient to hold an all-in? if you made 7 bunkers and took a fast 3rd, would you be upset to lose to an all-in? probably.
ghost nerf was absolutely necessary. The idea that you could mass just ghosts and completely counter every zerg unit was horrible.
I can't find it now but someone else said that terran 'can't afford to be building ghosts because all they do is counter infestors' which is insane, because if you get rid of the infestors, you can kill any zerg composition with marine tank, including broods.
not that you ever as terran need to actually engage broods. for all you complaining about how the big maps favour zerg, think about trying to get your infestor brood force across one of them. NIGHTMARE. terran can drop 2 of your bases, while just walking his army around yours and countering.
fast 3rd base strats are the way to go. maybe it's just me, but i feel like every zvt i play i think at some point 'wow, i really hope he hasn't taken a 3rd yet because i'd have no way to pressure it with these lings, i'm just starting infestors and i can't really be aggressive until i have ultras'
but i hear that that is stupid, so i won't say that.
personally, i win most of my zvt, but i won most of the macro zvts i played before, i just died to hellion runbys more back then. I suck at zvp, so i think my MMR is dropped by my zvp to the point where i'm facing weaker terrans than i should.
I find that zvp feels to me the OP says tvz feels to him. No chance to pressure, no all-in for them to be scared of, forced to just try to be greedy and hope that i can predict and counter any all-in without sacrificing my chance to get to broods, which are just as clumsy and slow in zvp as they are in zvt.
Making a ton of bunkers as terran and playing absolutely defensive with no map presence and making a bunch of queens that hold off everything and contribute to insanely fast creep spread are completely different. Also the OP also wants to find a way to open with a macro style the doesn't straight up to die to a allin, which zerg is now totally safe from if he is competent at all. You seem to be missing the main points of the blog, I suggest you re-read it again.
really? you read this as a strategy request blog?
there are two differences between queens and bunkers in this context, creep spread and salvage. throwing down bunkers is not exactly dooming terran to turtle, zerg just finally has a useful DEFENSIVE unit, but when i make 6-8 queens, i'm not getting my gas until 40ish supply in order to be able to afford the queens, each of which costs a ton of minerals. When i make queens 3 and 4, I could instead be building 6 drones for those minerals. Or a fast macro hatch/third. But i need those queens to not die to terran pressure. so going for that many queens delays my tech, upgrades and macro, but keeps me safe and allows me to spread creep.. honestly it seems to me that terran just wants a better way to deal with creep spread and none of this would be a problem.
queens, slow lings, slow banes and even infestors are all essentially defensive units, do you really think that there is no way for terran to take a fast 3rd against that? If it's a PF - or even an orbital defended by a few tanks and bunkers - zerg can't engage it before ultras.
can you not open with a fast 3rd cc, use it to stay close in workers while muling, then if you see the zerg going for lots of queens (as opposed to the 'dreaded' roach bane attack) just float it straight to your 3rd and put down a bunker or two?
EDIT: also
On June 18 2012 08:39 LuckyFool wrote: In TvP you can at least do things to exploit a greedy protoss, and can hide builds with good turret positioning/scanning to snipe obs. plus there are lots of good timings for terran in that matchup in general.
On a side note, Dreamhack has just 3 terrans in the top 16, 2 of which have to play tvz right away tomorrow. I feel sorry for Keen and Brat_Ok.
seriously? On another sidenote there are only 4 terrans in the current OSL.
On June 18 2012 10:33 sOAvoid wrote: zergs op nuff said terran never stood a chance in the beta even and they just keep nerfing terran like its unplayable now
When I read things like this, I get taken back to the days of AP Euro analyzing documents for bias.
I pioneered the STD bias analysis actually. Social Position Type of Document Dependability So, lets begin. S: Terran player who follows pro scene and actively tries to improve, collaborating and asking for advice from other players. T: Blog, meaning balance whine is allowed and both sides may not be presented equally. D: It doesn't matter if he didn't write the blog.
Therefore, I'd take what you say with a grain of salt. Actually, a few grains of salt. But it brings up valid concerns, although things like "if terran figures out new things to do, it will just get nerfed" are simple minded. I like the queen change because before zerg was a bit like riding a unicycle on a railing that leads to a downhill slope. Yeah, if you don't fall off the rail, you get to be on a downhill slope. But it was so easy to fall.
On June 18 2012 10:26 AhhBoxxah wrote: lol -_- really? This reminds me of BW-era luckyfool QQ......what shame.
o.o 'xactly.
I just can't wait for a Zerg player to write a guide on how to harvest Terran tears, because it's going in that direction. I don't, however, see why not being able to go ALL-IN is bad. All-ins should be very limited and very risky. This rewards players who have good mechanics and think strategically.
I think the 5 range queen buff is so crazy that I'm starting to wonder if it isn't a preparation for HotS and the healing reapers + transforming hellions...
so going for that many queens delays my tech, upgrades and macro, but keeps me safe and allows me to spread creep.. honestly it seems to me that terran just wants a better way to deal with creep spread and none of this would be a problem.
Creep lasts way way way too long indeed. Even if you clear it all, unless you can control that area until the creep dissipates (and you cant, because lings and queens will still have the speed boost so you cant actually stay there), they will send one queen out and re-creep it at the very edge again.
while it seems pretty broken right now at the highest level of play (65% win rate is never something to be thrilled about), i still eek out wins in mid masters by the usual -- strong timings, constant aggression, and drop play.
only problem i have with it is it takes dynamics away from what was clearly the most balanced matchup, and the most entertaining matchup to watch. tvz had a lot more action, the queen change forces players in to a macro / PvZ style, which generally sucks for watching.
the dynamics of how tvz functions was/is the most interesting part of sc2.
My terran game has never been my best. I always would do crazy builds with nukes and ravens but my Terran is only Plat level. So I can't say what should be done to help terrans other than maybe another patch. I understand people are still figuring things out but the points made about the queen and overlord changes are a much bigger deal than people thought when they first saw patch notes.
Maybe Terran players need to figure something new out but looking at the results from GESL and Dreamhack right now are pretty clear that Zergs are dominating. I'm going to focus on the round of 16 and round of 8 for GESL and group stage 3 for Dreamhack.
SlayerSClide loses 0-2 to xSixSleep, EGDemuslim loses 0-2 to MVPMonster, KawaiiLighT loses 0-2 to EmpireViOLet. MVPDream loses 1-2 to GoldenLighT, SlayersRyung loses 0-2 to MVPMonser. Out of the 5 TvZ that took place in the round of 16 and round of 8 only 1 terran players took a game off a zerg.
Puma loses 1-2 to Cytoplasm, BratOK(the champion of TvZ right now) wins 2-0 over Mini and 2-0 over Snute. But also loses 0-2 to Dimaga. Keen also did well taking out LiveZerg 2-0. Morrow lost 0-2 to Stephano and 0-2 to sLivko. Thorzain wins 2-1 over Ziktomini, Thorzain loses 0-2 to Protosser and 0-2 to Nerchio. So out of 10 TvZs Terran won 8 games better thanks to BratOK actually doing work this weekend. Both BratOK and Keen have a TvZ first round tomorrow we'll see if they continue doing well or get crushed under the might of the Swarm...
So overall Terrans have a 45% win rate in TvZ in these two tournaments... Yes 45% isn't a big deal and with only 2 tournaments to judge this by but it does shed some light on the fact Terrans are struggling in TvZ right now. I'm curious to see how this will go up or down over the next couple tournaments... I'm sure most people have seen the ladder win rates recently... and how skewed that is toward Zerg. Also it'll be interesting to see if BratOk can kepe doing work at Dreamhack. Maybe he will be the Terran hope in TvZ right now!
It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play.
On June 18 2012 10:56 Mutality wrote: It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play.
You didn't come up with anything. Give me a break. Zerg has received a ton of buffs since beta. Specifically the infestor.
I always did wonder why the last patch buffed Zerg so much. It wasn't like last summer when the 1-1-1 was killing Protosses left and right. Pre-patch, TvZ was looking like a pretty balanced and entertaining matchup, and it didn't seem to be fundamentally unbalanced.
This has been an issue for me as well of late. The trend I've noticed is the difficulty of Terran in keeping up with Zerg's greediness and thus trying to cutting corners, opening them up to a variety of all-ins. As a result, basically 75+% of Zergs on ladder are metagaming and just doing a roach/bane attack early. I want to figure out a way to take a no-gas quick 3rd in response, but with queens' insane range and epic creep spread, it's very difficult to scout what the Zerg is doing in Early game. Even if they take a quick third, it can easily transition to a delayed all-in/hatch cancel/extra production.
In the end, I think it will just come down to understanding the Zerg's new timings (which I feel are significantly stronger than they were previously). Combined with the easy-punish units (Infestor/Baneling) to take advantage of lower-level players' imperfect mechanics, the match-up is heavily Zerg favored at the moment.
Looking forward to revolutionary new strategic insight from the pro scene to emulate so I can finally beat these terrible Zergs in my league. QQ
I quit SC2 almost a year ago because of reasons like these. I still follow the scene, but I absolutely refuse to play ladder games anymore because Blizzard keeps fucking with the balance of the game just when the state of the game is settling down.
Terran has always been a historically squishy race, both in BW and SC2, relying on micro, timing, and/or massive numbers in order to win games.
Any form of micro terran has an easy counter in the form of a unit or a spell in the Zerg arsenal now. Micro only worked well in BW because it was more difficult to control a larger army when dealing with a small skirmish force (the reason why Boxer is reknown in the BW world) and the limit on larvae. With both of those constraints gone and the developing gameplay, there is no "real" micro that terrans have that can do or threaten severe damage to the zerg infrastructure. They will just simply rebuild quicker than you can sustain the harassment for, and there's no threat of an "invincible" force like the old marine/medic/firebat combo vs zerglings.
Any timing that terrans have do not work because of how well queen/spine turtling is, how inefficient the seige tank is in terms of time and investment, and how most masters can now multitask with the help of smart AI and infinite unit control. Not to mention that zerg can afford to throw away units to snipe the tanks and not worry about your supporting army at all. Or if you somehow get a lot of tanks, by the time you roll out with that army, you're going to be facing broodlords, ultras, and a way bigger army than you anticipated.
And you tell me if Terrans can max out before a zerg and how often a maxed terran army could beat a maxed zerg army with both races' best late game compositions.
Terrans have no more weapons against zerg except for extremely risky gameplay. Most of what luckyfool said is correct. We don't have anymore early game weapons that work, no mid game weapons other than mild harassment, and really weak late game options. Nerf the queen to 1 per hatch, nerf the larvae mechanic...nerf something. Terrans will not last long like this at all.
On June 18 2012 07:29 yeint wrote: Fungals make me want to stab kittens.
And that's all that really needs to be said about late game TvZ. Zerg spams ultras, if you make an anti ultra army it dies to brood switch. If zerg spams broods you make vikings and die to ultra switch. The only general purpose unit that could keep the terran alive through these transitions is the marine, and fungal just melts them. Every single late game TvZ I've watched lately ends with the terran looking away for a split second at a critical moment and then his army melts.
Terran found the solution to this late game in the ghost, but snipe was nerfed to uselessness.
I'm unfamiliar with TvZ late-game, so please don't take this comment to be intentionally clueless or anything, but what is stopping the Terran player from simply making more Ghosts to make up for the decreased effectiveness of Snipe? Is it an issue with supply? Insufficient gas? Not enough time to pump out the Ghosts needed before the Zerg makes their move?
All of the above. You also have the problem with zergs getting to hive tech in a better position nowadays because of the queen/ovie buff and just generally understanding timings/what they can get away with.
I've said from day 1 that if you have a race that depends on timing attacks to win, once people figure out the timings u will never win again. Having to rely on timing attacks is a horrible idea for a game/race and can leave you SEVERELY crippled by metagame shifts.
tvz was the same way though in bw for example. Terran always had that marine timing they would do and it would force zergs to make lings or creep colonies to make them into sunkens. Terran was always on the attack, if he wasn't zerg would be just the same as in sc2 with defiler/ultra/ling and a lot more of it then if terran sat back with bio and did nothing.
Mech was a different story obviously, but same with sc2 if you go mech you don't push early like you do with bio. If you are going to go bio yes you have to put pressure or at least force units. I have found terrans doing a MM timing but not committing to be the most effective. Just forcing zerg to make units and then pulling back (unless you see you can kill him or something) is very effective.
I personally don't play mech, since I am a no skill player (really I suck at SC2 lol). I personally play protoss, but I have dabbled in some terran play. Have you seen many ravens recently? This feels like the time Terran players told Protoss to find a new way to win after they started 1/1/1-ing, so along with a healthy immortal buff to make them less useless, Protoss developed a lot of warp prism harrass, early naturals and thirds to get more units out and even started using phoenix a lot more, could this be the case with Terran in this instance? I feel like there are a lot of underused Terran upgrades and units and structures, such as reapers, ravens, vikings and battlecruisers, have a place in the TvZ meta, but are rarely used. for instance, one way to take advantage of Zergs greedy nature would be to take advantage of the same principals that zerg does, if you can't harrass early becaue of map size, then neither can zerg really. I guess what I am asking is, is this similar to what the races have had to do in the past when it comes to evolving or is this insurmountable?
Anyone thinking ravens work in TvZ need to watch Stephano vs Puma (g2? at DH) and realize if the zerg doesnt scratch their balls for 15 minutes like Dimaga/Idra do all the time they basically roll over the terran minutes after their 8gas/10gas economy.
Sacrificing tech or whatever to drone hard with queens defending isnt even a detriment anymore seeing as can really delay your infestor tech with the increased defensive capabilities you've already invested in. Also, Zergs are doing more 2 base shoves nowadays which banshee fast third double ebay (super greedy) isn't the best idea to be caught with.
At least in TvP you can just snipe the observers blanket emp their army and basically snowball yourself to a victory. In TvZ you're just "less behind" in terms of economical/supply after you win a huge fight against a zerg who basically droned to 80 off 7+ queens and then teched straight Hive and there's nothing really you can do about it.
On June 18 2012 10:56 Mutality wrote: It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play.
Yeah, first you had to discover your Z and E keys, then you had to discover your T keys. Next it was F, and now early game it's a check if your Q key works. That's a whole lot of innovation!!!!
Also, mass battlecruisers with Yamato cannon is the clear answer to the Zerg problem.
On June 18 2012 10:56 Mutality wrote: It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play.
You didn't come up with anything. Give me a break. Zerg has received a ton of buffs since beta. Specifically the infestor.
Probably because they fucking needed them.
Look, I play Terran and Zerg and I'm master level. This is a pretty solid match up for both races and it's not particularly easy for either race, despite what some would suggest with their rants.
I feel that what's being said about Terran players needing to "learn new counters" is actually kind of true. TvZ has been stale as week-old shit for a long time now. It's one of the few match ups in the game that relies on essentially 3 units almost all of the time: marine, tank, medivac.
There are so many more options in our arsenal. I still see that ghosts are woefully underused vs. infestors, I feel that ravens are largely ignored by most players, and I think mech is hardly used at all - simply because the "old standard" is MMT.
I have bitched on this forum for ages about how shit I think tanks are. I think they're a fucking joke in SC2 and in HotS they'll be countered even more than they are now. For a long time I thought they were "required" in TvZ, as shitty as they are; but I now see, after a lot of practice, that they're not - and we do have options. I believe this issue with recent Zerg upgrades is the same sort of thing. We need to stop complaining and start thinking outside the box.
The best thing to do is just look for ways to deal with the changes while we wait for HotS. Then we can laugh at swarm hosts (they'll be shit) and curse at vipers (they'll be good) while we kick ass and chew bubblegum with our new toys.
On June 18 2012 10:56 Mutality wrote: It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play.
You didn't come up with anything. Give me a break. Zerg has received a ton of buffs since beta. Specifically the infestor.
There are so many more options in our arsenal. I still see that ghosts are woefully underused vs. infestors, I feel that ravens are largely ignored by most players, and I think mech is hardly used at all - simply because the "old standard" is MMT.
I have bitched on this forum for ages about how shit I think tanks are. I think they're a fucking joke in SC2 and in HotS they'll be countered even more than they are now. For a long time I thought they were "required" in TvZ, as shitty as they are; but I now see, after a lot of practice, that they're not - and we do have options. I believe this issue with recent Zerg upgrades is the same sort of thing. We need to stop complaining and start thinking outside the box.
Mech is and has been used quite often with varying degrees of success - to me, just qualitatively, I feel like it has been less successful overall than bio. The top Korean Terrans practice mech all the time -- MVP's said so in multiple interviews and has played mech a lot recently and in 2011 against Zerg, we see Happy using it a lot, Polt uses it quite a few times on his stream, MKP has done so many times in his games, etc. Bomber's been using Ravens recently, and got destroyed by Slivko, and beat an unsuspecting Stephano. I don't believe that it'll become standard once Zergs figure it out.
The only top TvZ player we've never seen use mech (at least not more than 2-3 times in televised matches) is MMA. And, guess what, for the longest time, he was the best TvZ player in the world.
I quit SC2 almost a year ago because of reasons like these. I still follow the scene, but I absolutely refuse to play ladder games anymore because Blizzard keeps fucking with the balance of the game just when the state of the game is settling down.
Terran has always been a historically squishy race, both in BW and SC2, relying on micro, timing, and/or massive numbers in order to win games.
Any form of micro terran has an easy counter in the form of a unit or a spell in the Zerg arsenal now. Micro only worked well in BW because it was more difficult to control a larger army when dealing with a small skirmish force (the reason why Boxer is reknown in the BW world) and the limit on larvae. With both of those constraints gone and the developing gameplay, there is no "real" micro that terrans have that can do or threaten severe damage to the zerg infrastructure. They will just simply rebuild quicker than you can sustain the harassment for, and there's no threat of an "invincible" force like the old marine/medic/firebat combo vs zerglings.
Any timing that terrans have do not work because of how well queen/spine turtling is, how inefficient the seige tank is in terms of time and investment, and how most masters can now multitask with the help of smart AI and infinite unit control. Not to mention that zerg can afford to throw away units to snipe the tanks and not worry about your supporting army at all. Or if you somehow get a lot of tanks, by the time you roll out with that army, you're going to be facing broodlords, ultras, and a way bigger army than you anticipated.
And you tell me if Terrans can max out before a zerg and how often a maxed terran army could beat a maxed zerg army with both races' best late game compositions.
Terrans have no more weapons against zerg except for extremely risky gameplay. Most of what luckyfool said is correct. We don't have anymore early game weapons that work, no mid game weapons other than mild harassment, and really weak late game options. Nerf the queen to 1 per hatch, nerf the larvae mechanic...nerf something. Terrans will not last long like this at all.
My problem with this queen buff is that queens never ever lose functionality in any stage of the game as zerg. Ever. You will never, ever, ever hear a pro say "oh yeah do early pressure to force queens" because queens are never something the zerg doesn't want
While before, against hellions, you could sometimes force roaches or a heavier investment into zerglings to clear out hellions, now its just Queenx6. Past the X minute mark whenever the zerg decides he's made enough drones and doesn't need his queens to defend, they just get moved to expansions. Roaches (and to a smaller extent lings) lost functionality as the firepower scaled in the lategame, because the ever-increasing numbers of marine/tank or hellion/tank/thor or whatever would mean they would have shorter and shorter lifespans-but now, defensive units become macro mechanics that can just be distributed as you take additional bases and build more macro hatches.
An extremely tough early defense force should not translate so well into lategame usefulness.
I agree. At this point it's fucking disgusting. It's gotten to a point where the bigger the map = the worse for terran, simply because of the fact that overlords can get anywhere (how the fuck do we stop all overlords from spreading out all over the map?) and mass queen(4-5) is now the norm off 2 base.The game design of making marines the be-all end-all unit for terran fucked this up so god damn bad to the point where early-mid game was the only time we had a chance. Now that's fucked up as well with the zerg buffs.
On June 18 2012 10:56 Mutality wrote: It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play.
You didn't come up with anything. Give me a break. Zerg has received a ton of buffs since beta. Specifically the infestor.
Probably because they fucking needed them.
Look, I play Terran and Zerg and I'm master level. This is a pretty solid match up for both races and it's not particularly easy for either race, despite what some would suggest with their rants.
Who cares about masters league when players like MVP and DRG say TvZ favours zerg? I mean pro gamers play at a higher level and know better than you.
I agree 100% with lucky here. Zerg and Protoss are able to reporduce there armies much quicker than Terran. I really think the current state of TvZ, means the terran must be aggressive early to be even in the mid game. And while watching a few dreamhack matches, I saw some roach baneling agression that didn't kill the terran, but decimated the natural and in some cases hurt the main. The zerg only has to make workers because there is no way the terran is moving out. The terran has to produce army and workers and infrasture. Thats a ton of money. I actually don't have any idea why zergs don't do this type of push every TvZ. Right now its like the 1/1/1 use to be to protoss.
Luckyfool amazing post, TvZ is a joke, only way to win is to get very fast 3cc up and go mass bio but you die if hive tech kicks in, terran can win only between 10min-16min mark its impossible to win other then that 6min and its stupidly hard to win in dat 6 min too
If you're winning with Ravens I'm inclined to believe that it's because it's out of the norm.
Yes. You might have greater success if your build is not standard, but it might not be because of the strategy it's simply the opponent's misread or poor execution or poor counter-strategy against it. Raven is slow, HSM has the range of a marauder, PDD is good but all air is ridiculously vulnerable to fungal growth anyways.
...Unless the new "Terran revolution" involves raven splitting (it's like splitting unstimmed marines vs a baneling with twice the radius!)
It was funny when Ghost went from 150/150 to 200/100. I suspect it was a veiled nerf since though gas is more valuable than minerals, it's not the case for ghosts in the situations they are used for - or for Terran in general. Early game ghost in TvT isn't quite as good (understatement) after the snipe nerf (read: can't snipe a marine lololol) and Terran is always looking for minerals, not gas. So the lack of a gas dump outside of the raven is still a big problem and will still be a problem going into HotS.
I wouldn't be surprised if the next balance patch is one involving ravens to "push" Terrans into using them in lategame matchups, much like how they "pushed" warp prism usage with a +60 shield buff or "pushed" fast protoss upgrades with a trivial (but in my biased view, extremely annoying and unnecessary) cost buff. ITS NOT LIKE THEIR GROUND UPGRADES DON'T WORK ON ROBO OR ANYTHING. HINT HINT
tl;dr
On June 18 2012 12:07 intrigue wrote: time for 60 hp scvs, quick-building bunkers, and the ability to make rax before depot! hehehe
On June 18 2012 10:56 Mutality wrote: It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play.
No no. No more of that. We learned how to play this game multiple times. Each time our race was nerfed, and when the other races couldn't "figure it out" they were given upgrade buffs/immortal buff (protoss) and queen range + overlord speed (zerg) and more.
Stop telling us to figure it out. We already did many, many times over.
I don't know why people even bother posting T concerns on teamliquid. The entire community would love nothing more than to see T disappear completely. If you're T and you're struggling, either quit, reroll, or just fight it out; don't bother posting here.
On June 18 2012 12:41 Fission wrote: I don't know why people even bother posting T concerns on teamliquid. The entire community would love nothing more than to see T disappear completely. If you're T and you're struggling, either quit, reroll, or just fight it out; don't bother posting here.
That's not true at all. Most zergs (before queen buff) enjoyed zvt because it was fun to play and entertaining. it still is but it's harder for terrans, I don't think most of the community wants terran gone. It might be some grudge from the past when terrans said the same things to zerg/toss when they were dominating for a long long time.
What I really want to see is the race distribution. For some reason we used to get those stats, but we don't anymore, and I'm really curious to see where T sits. I personally haven't played any T players in a couple days now, which is meaningless anecdotal evidence ofc, but w/e.
On June 18 2012 12:40 Ktk wrote: If you're winning with Ravens I'm inclined to believe that it's because it's out of the norm.
Yes. You might have greater success if your build is not standard, but it might not be because of the strategy it's simply the opponent's misread or poor execution or poor counter-strategy against it. Raven is slow, HSM has the range of a marauder, PDD is good but all air is ridiculously vulnerable to fungal growth anyways.
...Unless the new "Terran revolution" involves raven splitting (it's like splitting unstimmed marines vs a baneling with twice the radius!)
It was funny when Ghost went from 150/150 to 200/100. I suspect it was a veiled nerf since though gas is more valuable than minerals, it's not the case for ghosts in the situations they are used for - or for Terran in general. Early game ghost in TvT isn't quite as good (understatement) after the snipe nerf (read: can't snipe a marine lololol) and Terran is always looking for minerals, not gas. So the lack of a gas dump outside of the raven is still a big problem and will still be a problem going into HotS.
I wouldn't be surprised if the next balance patch is one involving ravens to "push" Terrans into using them in lategame matchups, much like how they "pushed" warp prism usage with a +60 shield buff or "pushed" fast protoss upgrades with a trivial (but in my biased view, extremely annoying and unnecessary) cost buff. ITS NOT LIKE THEIR GROUND UPGRADES DON'T WORK ON ROBO OR ANYTHING. HINT HINT
On June 18 2012 12:07 intrigue wrote: time for 60 hp scvs, quick-building bunkers, and the ability to make rax before depot! hehehe
Science vessel plz
Ravens are one of the few lategame things T has, but even those require a mistake on your opponent's part in terms of not splitting their units (sorta like PvZ vs vortex) and/or if the Zerg hits 1 fungal they autowin the game because you lose all your ravens/vikings or what not to fungal/corruptors.
I have quite a bit of experience lategame TvZ with ravens and the game always comes down "keep away from the fungal growth." And also when ravens are fungalled, they cannot cast HSM on broods because they're too far away.
But that's just one issue in the big picture. The queen buff has made it so Zerg can do whatever they want and you cannot even all-in them/damage them nowadays because overlord speed + more queens = more creep = more defense. People really underestimate the ability to kite queens with hellions or force Zerg to actually have to make units instead of only queens/creep tumors.
Since hellions can't do jack shit now to deny creep/queens, the game just ends up always going late and spiralling out of control, it just snowballs. There's a legitimate problem with the match-up that blizzard created with the last patch that needs to be addressed very soon.
It's funny how two range on a queen changed every fucken thing on a MU, but not for everyone. It's funny, because Blizzard just taken them ability to stay TOTALY unscouted, nothing else, and outcray happen. I'm high in masters. And until patch happend 80% of the terrans i played were ALWAYS abusing me at some point. 3cc off of 4 hellions and 3 marines in a bunker? check! Double engi before second barrack on two bases? check! banshee from two hellions and one bunker of marines? check! ... And then you always have to think about every stupid all in that terran can do to you on every point of the game. Now terrans can't abuse, and that is why the outcray comes from. That range buff SHULDN'T MADE MU UNPLAYABLE. But did... i think it's because hmm "every terran is/was till now a hack "
On June 18 2012 12:51 Sapp wrote: It's funny how two range on a queen changed every fucken thing on a MU, but not for everyone. It's funny, because Blizzard just taken them ability to stay TOTALY unscouted, nothing else, and outcray happen. I'm high in masters. And until patch happend 80% of the terrans i played were ALWAYS abusing me at some point. 3cc off of 4 hellions and 3 marines in a bunker? check! Double engi before second barrack on two bases? check! banshee from two hellions and one bunker of marines? check! ... And then you always have to think about every stupid all in that terran can do to you on every point of the game. Now terrans can't abuse, and that is why the outcray comes from. That range buff SHULDN'T MADE MU UNPLAYABLE. But did... i think it's because hmm "every terran is/was till now a hack "
Right, so the ideal state of the game is for terrans to be unable to attack you until lategame, where you 1a a massive hive tech army over and masturbate furiously over your ladder points?
On June 18 2012 12:51 Sapp wrote: It's funny how two range on a queen changed every fucken thing on a MU, but not for everyone. It's funny, because Blizzard just taken them ability to stay TOTALY unscouted, nothing else, and outcray happen. I'm high in masters. And until patch happend 80% of the terrans i played were ALWAYS abusing me at some point. 3cc off of 4 hellions and 3 marines in a bunker? check! Double engi before second barrack on two bases? check! banshee from two hellions and one bunker of marines? check! ... And then you always have to think about every stupid all in that terran can do to you on every point of the game. Now terrans can't abuse, and that is why the outcray comes from. That range buff SHULDN'T MADE MU UNPLAYABLE. But did... i think it's because hmm "every terran is/was till now a hack "
Right, so the ideal state of the game is for terrans to be unable to attack you until lategame, where you 1a a massive hive tech army over and masturbate furiously over your ladder points?
you fuc... DID I SAID SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
but okay... i'll play! so the ideal state of the game is for zerg to HAVE TO open something balanced in ETA and pray for terran to NOT do something that counters zergs build coompletly, while everything that terran wants to see is at the range of a scan?
IF! (AND I SAY "IF") the game is broken, it is broken in diffirent place. maybe space mariners are too weak? i don't know, but if STRATEGY game is about praying every game to god, for your strategy not to be completly countered, the game is bad!
People who think that ravens are the cure to TvZ are the same class of completely fucking retarded as those who thought nydus worms were the cure to ZvT back when it was horrible for zergs. The actual cures were balance changes, better maps and refinement of basic shit. Ravens are good at killing broods if you can turtle and get a bunch out with enough energy. This is a good strategy on metropolis because that is a map where it's super easy to do nothing but secure 5 bases and drop occasionally so you don't feel bad about doing nothing for 50 minutes. That's it. They tickle ultralisks and don't do much else. They're very expensive and take a long time to produce and build up energy for. If you get a bunch in preparation for broodlords and he goes ultralisks instead then you look extremely fucking stupid. And seeing as you have to start ravens well in time for broods, there's none of this scouting that'll help you.
TvZ right now feels awful as a terran currently. This isn't helped that being Australian my local scene is already full of bloody zergs already. Good ones. Anyway, it feels pretty awful, and that's mostly because of queens. I didn't mind a lot of the terran nerfs in the past, pretty much all of them really. Yea ghosts were kinda dumb with snipe. Gold bases were retarded. Blue flames were stupid. All good changes, and terrans soldiered on just fine because we were good players who didn't need things that stupid. Overlord change, yea ok zergs always felt uncomfortable early game dealing with 1 base plays they couldn't really see coming. Ok fine.
But queens are fucking imbalanced as they are now. A Zerg who sees you going 13 gas can get 2 queens and have no problem setting down creep. A zerg who sees you going 1 rax fe/14 CC can get 6 queens, 3 bases and 70 drones. If they lose drones to harassment they can just make more while the queen cleans it up. With 3 hatcheries and good injects they have all the larvae they need and with 2 saturated bases they have the money. Queens are a very strong defensive unit with no exploitable weaknesses. The only weaknesses they have are slow off creep, fat so they concave bad en masse and are psionic so they take 50 damage from ghost snipe. They are also a bit tricky to mass produce unlike roaches but that's ok you only need 6.
Apart from that they have roughly the same damage as roaches except they have more hp, don't have vulnerability to marauders, can attack air, can spread creep, can do injects, can heal things, don't cost gas, don't require much tech and fulfil the similar function to roaches which is keeping hellions away for cheap. Cheaper even. And unlike roaches again if you don't get much value out of them it's ok! If you make like 6 roaches when saturating 3 bases then you're stuck with this shitty unit that doesn't do much. If you make 3 additional queens then you can spread a shitload of creep and have leftover queens for when you make more hatcheries. There's pretty much no downside other then a vulnerability to mass marine/scv all in which I feel zergs will figure out soon (hint, use overlords to scout our gases. If no gas, make a baneling nest and get ready to freewin the terran) and the rest is upside; 3 saturated bases quick as you like and tons of creep. If the terran is greedy then it's probably ok since you're being pretty much as greedy as you can.
There's a lot of other things I could go on about as /whingyterran but queens are pretty much the biggest qualm I have with the mu. Either we get balance change or we get a revolutionist. Either way I hope we get one very soon.
On June 18 2012 10:56 Mutality wrote: It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play.
You didn't come up with anything. Give me a break. Zerg has received a ton of buffs since beta. Specifically the infestor.
You're right, zerg still makes muta and sits on lair until 5 base, and protoss maxes on collosi/stalker.
On June 18 2012 10:56 Mutality wrote: It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play.
You didn't come up with anything. Give me a break. Zerg has received a ton of buffs since beta. Specifically the infestor.
Yeah, and they were buffed because they were too strong..
Buffs are not like candy in kindergarden you moron, if blizzard is buffing something, that means that someone thinks that IT IS TOO WEAK. And you seem to think that if zerg get buffed that means that terran has to be buffedalso, just to be fair... this is bullshit, grow up.
On June 18 2012 13:13 iaguz wrote: People who think that ravens are the cure to TvZ are the same class of completely fucking retarded as those who thought nydus worms were the cure to ZvT back when it was horrible for zergs.
I dunno what people's fascination with "the thing" is. At least the Protoss' "thing" works like a charm >_<...
On the subject of Queens, I feel like nerfing them and Spawn Larvae is key to balancing Zerg, but I'm sure you know how much the race hinges on passive play. When Blizzard adds burrowed broodlords, I'm sure such a nerf could be compensated, but...this is Blizzard. We'll find out.
I swear we need someone to do a study on SCII from ALL leagues, with grandmaster and proleagues having the biggest sample size in regards of the state of the game, wins based on TIMINGS. See if Terrans are winning any TvP or TvZ past 10-15 minutes, see if Protoss are winning any PvT or PvZ past 10-15 minutes, and same for Zerg. Maybe then we'll have less of this stupid as fuck theorycrafting and more actual action taking place.
zerg lategame is Z favored... BL/Infestor max is too powerful. but the idea is to use timings to slow the zerg down and keep them from lots of bases... (4+).. ideally if you can keep him off a'lot of bases while you expand your self.. you should be able to hit him before he amasses too many corruputers/broods.. just make sure you're scanning properly for tech switches/tech timings... great thing about terrans is.. nothing can really handle our 2/2 marine/tank/medi pushes.. just set them up properly ; )
It's unfortunate that so many zergs have had the victim syndrome throughout the history of sc2 (largely because of balance being so terrible when the game first came out -- seriously, wasn't the roach supply changed to 2 like 1 month before the game came out? Fundamental changes like that should be settled in alpha! but I digress). The point is is that zergs need to stop being like idra and start being more like stephano, in other words stop complaning constantly and start recognizing how fucking powerful your race is.
On June 18 2012 13:30 EienShinwa wrote: I swear we need someone to do a study on SCII from ALL leagues, with grandmaster and proleagues having the biggest sample size in regards of the state of the game, wins based on TIMINGS. See if Terrans are winning any TvP or TvZ past 10-15 minutes, see if Protoss are winning any PvT or PvZ past 10-15 minutes, and same for Zerg. Maybe then we'll have less of this stupid as fuck theorycrafting and more actual action taking place.
Yes I agree. Unfortunately I don't know how much good that will do because blizzard has no problem with races being imbalanced at different times of the game.
On June 18 2012 12:51 Sapp wrote: It's funny how two range on a queen changed every fucken thing on a MU, but not for everyone. It's funny, because Blizzard just taken them ability to stay TOTALY unscouted, nothing else, and outcray happen. I'm high in masters. And until patch happend 80% of the terrans i played were ALWAYS abusing me at some point. 3cc off of 4 hellions and 3 marines in a bunker? check! Double engi before second barrack on two bases? check! banshee from two hellions and one bunker of marines? check! ... And then you always have to think about every stupid all in that terran can do to you on every point of the game. Now terrans can't abuse, and that is why the outcray comes from. That range buff SHULDN'T MADE MU UNPLAYABLE. But did... i think it's because hmm "every terran is/was till now a hack "
Right, so the ideal state of the game is for terrans to be unable to attack you until lategame, where you 1a a massive hive tech army over and masturbate furiously over your ladder points?
This made me lol.
I played a TvZ today on Entombed Valley. I scouted we had spawned cross-positions, and I immediately knew I had lost the game right there: I took a really fast 3rd CC and massed MMT off of 9 rax and 2 ports. He was taking his 4th base when I chose to push him with a really huge, 2/2 army. Then all the sudden I see he had creeped the map halfway through, and almost as fast as I realized that, I see a huge ball of lings/blings charging toward me. I split like fucking crazy and I die, he makes mutas, and I try a last attempt at killing his 4th. I manage to scare all his workers away, and die before my army even damages his hatchery to half its life. I gg when I see his mutas had obliterated my 3rd and were pissing in my main.
To me, playing TvZ feels like playing BW TvP and going bio.
A few things... I feel like it isn't the fact that queen's extra range makes them so much more useful. It's that because Blizzard gave them a buff, Zerg players have started to experiment with them more. It's like back when the Warp Prism could die if someone blew too hard on it. Sure, the buff in survivability was nice, but then we saw many Protoss experiment with them more, even when the survivability wasn't the issue. Point being, it isn't the buff that's changing the game so much, it's that players experiment with using these relatively underused units more, or using them in ways that were previously uncommon. Zergs now focus a LOT more on getting good creep spread.
It reminds me of BW TvZ, with the Terran army having to wait for a Science Vessel before venturing out too far to deal with the map control lurkers gave. Now that Zergs in SC2 are getting much better at creep spread and map control, what does the Terran need to do? That should be the question that Terrans ask themselves instead of blaming imbalance because Queens have a longer ground attack range.
In all honesty though, I too feel ZvT is unbalanced right now. I play Zerg. Terran either has to be much better than the Zerg, or Zerg needs to make mistakes for the Terran to win. However, I do think Terran has many unexplored builds that can trump current Zerg play...
I'm a random player who has always had the hardest time as Terran. However, I recognize from watching the pro level that terran has always had a huge upside when played extremely well. I still believe it does, even in TvZ.
Here's a few things that could use some testing from a player much better than me:
Pressure vZ 3-base: Try playing around with some marauder/ghost timings. Snipe queens with ghosts, 4 shots to kill, but it's almost instant so it'd be a very hard transfuse. If there's a huge clump of queens you could EMP, but snipe is generally preferred. Marauders do great against spines or roaches. Biggest worry would probably be lings, but ghosts 2-shot em so you just have to make sure that you get a good position and never get fully surrounded.
Gasless 3CC: Already safe except against major pressure, so the key is good scouting to check for those busts. What about building an extra barracks near the enemy and using it like zergs use a suicidal overlord? You'll need to learn the appropriate timing to check for that bust, but for 150 minerals you've got a suicide overlord with 1000 health (as opposed to 200) and 0.94 speed (as opposed to 0.59). Not too bad for 50 minerals more. Wouldn't scouting the occasional bust be a good investment of 150 minerals especially since you can save your scan for mules instead? After it does its scouting job you can send it back to base or to a repairing SCV for a later scout. You can also leave it just outside the creep spread as a spotter and it'll be safe until hydras/mutas/corruptors come out because it can run the same speed as a queen off creep. So find a good time to build a proxy rax (could be part of proxy rax pressure) and let it fly.
Just some very simple ideas from a middling player.
On June 18 2012 13:30 EienShinwa wrote: I swear we need someone to do a study on SCII from ALL leagues, with grandmaster and proleagues having the biggest sample size in regards of the state of the game, wins based on TIMINGS. See if Terrans are winning any TvP or TvZ past 10-15 minutes, see if Protoss are winning any PvT or PvZ past 10-15 minutes, and same for Zerg. Maybe then we'll have less of this stupid as fuck theorycrafting and more actual action taking place.
Check the recent David Kim interview from 6 minutes till about 6:30. He was specifically talking about PvT in it, but it turns out that they actually do look at stats across all timings.
On June 18 2012 14:31 EscPlan9 wrote: A few things... I feel like it isn't the fact that queen's extra range makes them so much more useful. It's that because Blizzard gave them a buff, Zerg players have started to experiment with them more. It's like back when the Warp Prism could die if someone blew too hard on it. Sure, the buff in survivability was nice, but then we saw many Protoss experiment with them more, even when the survivability wasn't the issue. Point being, it isn't the buff that's changing the game so much, it's that players experiment with using these relatively underused units more, or using them in ways that were previously uncommon. Zergs now focus a LOT more on getting good creep spread.
It reminds me of BW TvZ, with the Terran army having to wait for a Science Vessel before venturing out too far to deal with the map control lurkers gave. Now that Zergs in SC2 are getting much better at creep spread and map control, what does the Terran need to do? That should be the question that Terrans ask themselves instead of blaming imbalance because Queens have a longer ground attack range.
I feel that's a poor argument. When warp prisms were buffed they didn't change in use or function, they just became better at something you already used them for. It increased the chances that certain strategies would work, but they didn't fundamentally change the unit nor how other races viewed it, at least not too substantially.
The queen buff did fundamentally change TvZ because queens > hellions whereas before hellions > queens. This is pretty huge because nowadays zergs are going for really fast 3 bases and massing queens to defend harassment whilst they drone a ton, then pumping tons of units (generally lings) so they don't have to die to something the queens cannot handle. Prepatch if a zerg wanted to do that he'd have to get roaches first or an awful lot of lings but now they are doing it off of 6 queens which is an awful lot cheaper. They also get tons of delicious creep too!
TvZ has been pretty boring to watch. Zerg takes no damage and takes free 3rd as long as he has queens. I think they need to reintroduce maps like Taldarim altar where there are rocks at the third to really make this patch somewhat work out.
On June 18 2012 14:31 EscPlan9 wrote: A few things... I feel like it isn't the fact that queen's extra range makes them so much more useful. It's that because Blizzard gave them a buff, Zerg players have started to experiment with them more. It's like back when the Warp Prism could die if someone blew too hard on it. Sure, the buff in survivability was nice, but then we saw many Protoss experiment with them more, even when the survivability wasn't the issue. Point being, it isn't the buff that's changing the game so much, it's that players experiment with using these relatively underused units more, or using them in ways that were previously uncommon. Zergs now focus a LOT more on getting good creep spread.
It reminds me of BW TvZ, with the Terran army having to wait for a Science Vessel before venturing out too far to deal with the map control lurkers gave. Now that Zergs in SC2 are getting much better at creep spread and map control, what does the Terran need to do? That should be the question that Terrans ask themselves instead of blaming imbalance because Queens have a longer ground attack range.
I feel that's a poor argument. When warp prisms were buffed they didn't change in use or function, they just became better at something you already used them for. It increased the chances that certain strategies would work, but they didn't fundamentally change the unit nor how other races viewed it, at least not too substantially.
The queen buff did fundamentally change TvZ because queens > hellions whereas before hellions > queens. This is pretty huge because nowadays zergs are going for really fast 3 bases and massing queens to defend harassment whilst they drone a ton, then pumping tons of units (generally lings) so they don't have to die to something the queens cannot handle. Prepatch if a zerg wanted to do that he'd have to get roaches first or an awful lot of lings but now they are doing it off of 6 queens which is an awful lot cheaper. They also get tons of delicious creep too!
Prepatch a zerg with 4-6 queens would have beaten hellions as well. Zergs just do it more often now because "oh hey, the unit got a buff, let me experiment with it more" and it has made the top Zerg players start to unravel the true potential of the Queen.
On June 18 2012 14:53 RenSC2 wrote: Pressure vZ 3-base: Try playing around with some marauder/ghost timings. Snipe queens with ghosts, 4 shots to kill, but it's almost instant so it'd be a very hard transfuse. If there's a huge clump of queens you could EMP, but snipe is generally preferred.
That's absolutely ridiculous. They can just spam lings against marauder ghost, and you are now crippled economically and have spent all your gas on tech that's useless until infestors come out.
On June 18 2012 10:56 Mutality wrote: It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play.
You didn't come up with anything. Give me a break. Zerg has received a ton of buffs since beta. Specifically the infestor.
Probably because they fucking needed them.
Look, I play Terran and Zerg and I'm master level. This is a pretty solid match up for both races and it's not particularly easy for either race, despite what some would suggest with their rants.
Who cares about masters league when players like MVP and DRG say TvZ favours zerg? I mean pro gamers play at a higher level and know better than you.
I can find pro gamers that think ZvT favours Terran. Come on man, Terran has had it relatively easy for a long time in that MU - and I say this as a guy who spends equal amounts of time playing both races. I seriously think that Terran players just need to fucking adapt - and more than that, Blizzard needs to give them time to adapt rather than dish out some knee-jerk reaction to player complaint - like they have in the past.
For what it's worth, I didn't mention my league rank for any other reason than the fact that more often than not, on TL here, if you're below master and voice an opinion, people pop out of nowhere and shit all over you. Of course, the flip-side is that people here will shit all over you for mentioning too, so I guess there's that.
On June 18 2012 10:56 Mutality wrote: It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play.
You didn't come up with anything. Give me a break. Zerg has received a ton of buffs since beta. Specifically the infestor.
Probably because they fucking needed them.
Look, I play Terran and Zerg and I'm master level. This is a pretty solid match up for both races and it's not particularly easy for either race, despite what some would suggest with their rants.
Who cares about masters league when players like MVP and DRG say TvZ favours zerg? I mean pro gamers play at a higher level and know better than you.
I can find pro gamers that think ZvT favours Terran. Come on man, Terran has had it relatively easy for a long time in that MU - and I say this as a guy who spends equal amounts of time playing both races. I seriously think that Terran players just need to fucking adapt - and more than that, Blizzard needs to give them time to adapt rather than dish out some knee-jerk reaction to player complaint - like they have in the past.
For what it's worth, I didn't mention my league rank for any other reason than the fact that more often than not, on TL here, if you're below master and voice an opinion, people pop out of nowhere and shit all over you. Of course, the flip-side is that people here will shit all over you for mentioning too, so I guess there's that.
I challenge you to find me a single Terran pro-gamer that will say Terran has the advantage in TvZ.
On June 18 2012 14:31 EscPlan9 wrote: A few things... I feel like it isn't the fact that queen's extra range makes them so much more useful. It's that because Blizzard gave them a buff, Zerg players have started to experiment with them more. It's like back when the Warp Prism could die if someone blew too hard on it. Sure, the buff in survivability was nice, but then we saw many Protoss experiment with them more, even when the survivability wasn't the issue. Point being, it isn't the buff that's changing the game so much, it's that players experiment with using these relatively underused units more, or using them in ways that were previously uncommon. Zergs now focus a LOT more on getting good creep spread.
It reminds me of BW TvZ, with the Terran army having to wait for a Science Vessel before venturing out too far to deal with the map control lurkers gave. Now that Zergs in SC2 are getting much better at creep spread and map control, what does the Terran need to do? That should be the question that Terrans ask themselves instead of blaming imbalance because Queens have a longer ground attack range.
I feel that's a poor argument. When warp prisms were buffed they didn't change in use or function, they just became better at something you already used them for. It increased the chances that certain strategies would work, but they didn't fundamentally change the unit nor how other races viewed it, at least not too substantially.
The queen buff did fundamentally change TvZ because queens > hellions whereas before hellions > queens. This is pretty huge because nowadays zergs are going for really fast 3 bases and massing queens to defend harassment whilst they drone a ton, then pumping tons of units (generally lings) so they don't have to die to something the queens cannot handle. Prepatch if a zerg wanted to do that he'd have to get roaches first or an awful lot of lings but now they are doing it off of 6 queens which is an awful lot cheaper. They also get tons of delicious creep too!
Prepatch a zerg with 4-6 queens would have beaten hellions as well. Zergs just do it more often now because "oh hey, the unit got a buff, let me experiment with it more" and it has made the top Zerg players start to unravel the true potential of the Queen.
prepatch queens don't "beat" hellions at all wtf? nowadays i even see 3 queens in a line off creep running at my hellions to laugh at me they're a joke.
my biggest problem in the matchup is the fact that zerg can generally hold all forms of harassment with queens and drone to 80. Even if faced with harassment they can clean it up with queens and continue to drone. Any kind of all in / commitment to a push that a zerg scouts then he can just crush it and come out severely ahead and continue to drone to 70-80 and win later on and make it hell for terran to take a 3rd.
Hellion openings aren't viable considering the major use of hellions is to deny 3rd/ stop creep spread but now they can't really do either considering they trade hits with queens now instead of kiting.
OL placement and scouting is a lot easier (good thing) so any confident zerg should be able to scout any 2 base timing and hold with relative ease due to zerg reinforcement and then continue to drone
because of creep spread being crazy now any small push or 2 base timing is discouraged now and can be seen from really far away also giving zerg units swarm advantage because of creep increasing speed.
Its just wasn't well thought out on blizzards part. I don't' think they realized how much the queen buff would affect things zzz
generally i open quick 3rd most my TvZ matches but the thing is zerg players are metagaming that and roach baneling all inning and then would drone to 80 or they will drone to 80 and go heavy muta ling baneling knowing i won't be ready to take it yet because i've been cutting corners. Its just hard man, and not fun haha
Trying to find ways to deal with it currently but its just really really hard TT;
TL;DR I can't play greedy because zerg can scout it and make it hell/deny me but i can't punish zerg from playing greedy unless its an all in/really committed push and if it fails its guaranteed lose from there because they can just freely drone from there and go into late game with a huge lead.
On June 18 2012 14:53 RenSC2 wrote: Pressure vZ 3-base: Try playing around with some marauder/ghost timings. Snipe queens with ghosts, 4 shots to kill, but it's almost instant so it'd be a very hard transfuse. If there's a huge clump of queens you could EMP, but snipe is generally preferred. Marauders do great against spines or roaches. Biggest worry would probably be lings, but ghosts 2-shot em so you just have to make sure that you get a good position and never get fully surrounded.
Gasless 3CC: Already safe except against major pressure, so the key is good scouting to check for those busts. What about building an extra barracks near the enemy and using it like zergs use a suicidal overlord? You'll need to learn the appropriate timing to check for that bust, but for 150 minerals you've got a suicide overlord with 1000 health (as opposed to 200) and 0.94 speed (as opposed to 0.59). Not too bad for 50 minerals more. Wouldn't scouting the occasional bust be a good investment of 150 minerals especially since you can save your scan for mules instead? After it does its scouting job you can send it back to base or to a repairing SCV for a later scout. You can also leave it just outside the creep spread as a spotter and it'll be safe until hydras/mutas/corruptors come out because it can run the same speed as a queen off creep. So find a good time to build a proxy rax (could be part of proxy rax pressure) and let it fly.
That's absolutely ridiculous. They can just spam lings against marauder ghost, and you are now crippled economically and have spent all your gas on tech that's useless until infestors come out.
To be fair, I thought my second idea was the better one... largely because it's such a subtle change with far reaching consequences.
However, you're stating a scenario where your opponent is dumping all his larva into zerglings. He's essentially doing economic damage to himself. You will hopefully hit with some amount of suprise so that you can take out his 3rd and then retreat. If so, you already have the tech and some units ready for when your opponent goes infestor. If not, you can at least wedge yourself into the mineral fields and watch zerglings melt extremely inefficiently to ghost fire.
Meanwhile, you can save money on combat shield and stim for the time being so that gas can be dumped into ghosts or the other tech you want. You'll already have a significant number of tech labs to toss onto factories or starports as you move barracks to reactors. And as a terran in lategame, you're usually crunched for minerals, not gas anyways.
It needs testing by players better than me. It might not work at the highest levels, but it's definitely worth checking out. Maybe you'll have found the new meta-game, maybe not. It's not absolutely ridiculous. Getting stuck in the old meta-game and then crying about imbalance while Blizzard is forcing meta-game shifts is absolutely ridiculous.
ZvP is the worst matchup in the game by far, because of how gameplay starts at 5 minutes. You know how it is kind of hard to explain to someone what starcraft is in the first few seconds because nothing is happening but mining? Imagine this being 5 minutes long.... + Show Spoiler +
I also think Zerg can not lose a series against Protoss under any circumstance. The ones who do, do not have a strong enough understanding of the game.
The biggest fear I have coming in to the Zerg queen patch is that Terran metagame will shift towards 3CC passivity in every game. This will be another situation where gameplay starts at 5 minutes and it is just boring as hell.
I bring you 2 streamers, one match to watch, and one tournament run to follow:
Empire.Kas, TSLPolt, and NSHSculp vs StartaleCurious GSTL 2012, Brat_OK Dreamhack Summer 2012.
Empire.Kas has been doing 1 rax expand, into hellions, into banshee, into biotank, and NOT LOSING. I saw him play versus a grandmaster ladder champion (Alastor) literally 9 games in a row, where 7 games were THE SAME BUILD WITHOUT EVEN TRYING TO HIDE IT, and Kas won them all but one to some cool allin.
TSLPolt does much the same thing, he spices it up more, and still gets a decent winrate against Zerg. It is not glorious like Kas, but you will get a broader scope of possibility in the matchup.
NSHSculp opens 1 rax expand, into hellions with a 3rd CC quickly, and no cloak banshee harass. He metagames the Zerg queens being so far forward to spread creep that he runs them in by twos, and forces many many stupid lings to be made. Believe it or not, Queens might 1 shot your hellions, but they still are in fact slower on creep. I also reccommend a bunker rush to the zerg third base. The most fascinating thing is once he gets 60 workers, the aggression is ON. He moves out with a handful of marines, a medivac, and two tanks and just micros his HEART out. He forces so many units, gets so many cost efficient battles and is constantly macroing at home. He starts to do multi-pronged frontal assaults, with drops in the background. He micros PERFECTLY against banelings, infestors are fundamentally weak early on to this strategy, and mutalisks are fundamentally weak later, it is such a catch-all to lair tech. If he goes hatch-tech, just consolidate your forces! If hive, he has nothing!
Brat_OK has been dropping his way to fame. I have not paid much attention to his actual openers, but he has just been out-multitasking the zergs so hard. He knows how to pull apart lair tech, how to engage, killing creep spread and everything. He lost to DIMAGA in an unfortunate series that I might analyse later when replays come out.
The initial attack equalizes harvesters, while allowing you to get a third base up, 1-1 and infrastructure. ----- Also allows for much creep spread denial. Followed by a 1-1 double drop to keep the drone count equalized, or deny a fourth base. ----- Use the other parts of your bio to deny ling scouts, creep spread, overlord spread. Then a 2-2, 1-0 attack with marines and tanks, with medivac drops and taking a fourth behind yourself. ----- After this point, every 30 seconds send 4 marines on missions to a tower, to kill an overlord or a zergling, to kill creep tumours, SOMETHING for vision. ----- Also, once you have 2-2 you can really turn the heat on, you can CONSTANTLY attack until he has cracklings because your marines will suddenly get super efficient at this point.
The whole goal is to delay delay delay broodlord tech.
So what we have to micro 10x harder (subjective). so what our multitask is 10x harder (subjective). Our macro is harder (subjective). We have a hard time defending bases. We can't keep up with zerg macro.
THEN FUCKING PLAY BETTER AND BEAT THEM.
I dropped from high masters/gm to low masters, I'm not going to let this keep me away. Though for some reason Protoss just cheeses a LOT in this lower MMR.
Edit: Also worth mentioning, not all people might like the hyper aggression style that I just love.
Go 3 CC, make 4 hellions and then tanks. I don't remember what tourney, look for MMA vs Violet on Antiga. Go play defensive, and make Ravens. And don't complain when your air gets fungaled. Don't complain when you die to some bust before you get critical mass ravens. Split your ravens, to make them more effective. Tech slightly slower each time you get busted until you know what it takes to stay alive long enough to make enough ravens. I want to mention that Raven Viking BC Thor SCV is actually unbeatable. Zerg CAN NOT defeat this composition and you will win the game. This composition is your gg button, if you like turtling, figure out how to make it. If you like attacking, do what I'm trying to do.
I've given this some thought and the conclusion I came to was an early starport with a seige opening to hold off roach baneling busts. Been a little inspired by BW PvZ where they use corsairs to take out overlords.
Most zergs I've come across deal with two base banshee seige tech openings by making maybe two spore crawlers and an overseer. What I'm going to do is throw a viking or two in with my banshees solely for the purpose of munting that overseer and killing off any and all overlords around the map. If I'm lucky I can even get a few extra drone kills/a spore kill with the vikings. I'm going to try and force the zerg into spire tech to deal with my handful of vikings/banshees rather than just going straight into infestors.
This'll time with an armory and my third being taken (hopefully having denied his with banshess for a while) and by this point I should be prepared for any muta followup with plenty of marines. I still need to time this out, but I really feel that a lot of the control a zerg has over the game is due to the combination of overlord spread and creep spread.
It's just an idea, but is it one worth pursuing? Once a zerg loses control over the sky they basically can't stop drops. Yes I know once they make a few mutas I surrender control for a bit, but if they're making mutas and I'm making marines and they haven't been able to break my front, I'm probably going to be at an advantage.
On June 18 2012 14:53 RenSC2 wrote: Pressure vZ 3-base: Try playing around with some marauder/ghost timings. Snipe queens with ghosts, 4 shots to kill, but it's almost instant so it'd be a very hard transfuse. If there's a huge clump of queens you could EMP, but snipe is generally preferred. Marauders do great against spines or roaches. Biggest worry would probably be lings, but ghosts 2-shot em so you just have to make sure that you get a good position and never get fully surrounded.
Gasless 3CC: Already safe except against major pressure, so the key is good scouting to check for those busts. What about building an extra barracks near the enemy and using it like zergs use a suicidal overlord? You'll need to learn the appropriate timing to check for that bust, but for 150 minerals you've got a suicide overlord with 1000 health (as opposed to 200) and 0.94 speed (as opposed to 0.59). Not too bad for 50 minerals more. Wouldn't scouting the occasional bust be a good investment of 150 minerals especially since you can save your scan for mules instead? After it does its scouting job you can send it back to base or to a repairing SCV for a later scout. You can also leave it just outside the creep spread as a spotter and it'll be safe until hydras/mutas/corruptors come out because it can run the same speed as a queen off creep. So find a good time to build a proxy rax (could be part of proxy rax pressure) and let it fly.
That's absolutely ridiculous. They can just spam lings against marauder ghost, and you are now crippled economically and have spent all your gas on tech that's useless until infestors come out.
To be fair, I thought my second idea was the better one... largely because it's such a subtle change with far reaching consequences.
I did like your second idea by the way.
However, you're stating a scenario where your opponent is dumping all his larva into zerglings. He's essentially doing economic damage to himself. You will hopefully hit with some amount of suprise so that you can take out his 3rd and then retreat. If so, you already have the tech and some units ready for when your opponent goes infestor. If not, you can at least wedge yourself into the mineral fields and watch zerglings melt extremely inefficiently to ghost fire.
Larva damage for a three hatch zerg is far too negligible to warrant teching to ghosts. Also, how do you deny scouting with a tiny marine count?
Meanwhile, you can save money on combat shield and stim for the time being so that gas can be dumped into ghosts or the other tech you want. You'll already have a significant number of tech labs to toss onto factories or starports as you move barracks to reactors. And as a terran in lategame, you're usually crunched for minerals, not gas anyways.
The problem is not the lategame, it's the mid-game. Grats, you killed his fast third, but you now have no tanks or medivacs.
It needs testing by players better than me. It might not work at the highest levels, but it's definitely worth checking out. Maybe you'll have found the new meta-game, maybe not. It's not absolutely ridiculous. Getting stuck in the old meta-game and then crying about imbalance while Blizzard is forcing meta-game shifts is absolutely ridiculous.
It's fundamentally flawed. You can't counter a fast third hatch with a ghost timing without crippling yourself in the midgame.
Ok so pre-patch the Queen range was 3. Post patch it's 5. The obvious solution here is to just compromise and make it 4, then the matchup will once again be perfectly balanced :D
And I really am curious to start seeing new styles out of Terrans. All I see right now is Bio/Medivac or Marine/Tank/Medivac and it is beyond boring. And truthfully unless the Terran macros and/or drops their hearts out, it's easier for the zerg to win. So Bring on the new strategies creative Terrans, I can't wait for them!
its pretty simple, the matchup is retardedly broken atm, I watch kr terrans lose to trash na zergs all the time. But that doesn't mean if you lose a tvz its not your fault(because most people on tl suck). It just so happens that the skill ceiling for zerg reaches a point where they have sufficient creep spread and macro to be able to 1 a their way to victory with very simple infestor control and as usual the terran cant make mistakes, has to play very clean
On June 18 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote: Ok so pre-patch the Queen range was 3. Post patch it's 5. The obvious solution here is to just compromise and make it 4, then the matchup will once again be perfectly balanced :D
And I really am curious to start seeing new styles out of Terrans. All I see right now is Bio/Medivac or Marine/Tank/Medivac and it is beyond boring. And truthfully unless the Terran macros and/or drops their hearts out, it's easier for the zerg to win. So Bring on the new strategies creative Terrans, I can't wait for them!
What, unlike the uber-creative Zerg compositions of Infestor+whatever?
I don't understand the complaint about marine/tank/medivac. Those are the backbone units of Terran. Mech is untenable because of how slow it is. Any other army composition is silly, gimmicky nonsense.
TvZ was by far the most liked matchup in competitive SC2 for the past year or so, once we regularly saw healthy midgames.
Marine/tank/medivac makes for micro-intensive, drop-intensive play. The more marine-heavy a style, the more tempo-based the games are. "Creative" sounds like gimmicky semi-all ins with risky tech, or passively building up to some late game miracle composition.
On June 18 2012 17:18 ArcticMuse wrote: Why was this featured...
Because authors are featured, not the individual threads? It's like asking why is Destiny featured because one time you saw him stream 2 hours of building a computer on Newegg.
On June 18 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote: Ok so pre-patch the Queen range was 3. Post patch it's 5. The obvious solution here is to just compromise and make it 4, then the matchup will once again be perfectly balanced :D
And I really am curious to start seeing new styles out of Terrans. All I see right now is Bio/Medivac or Marine/Tank/Medivac and it is beyond boring. And truthfully unless the Terran macros and/or drops their hearts out, it's easier for the zerg to win. So Bring on the new strategies creative Terrans, I can't wait for them!
What, unlike the uber-creative Zerg compositions of Infestor+whatever?
I don't understand the complaint about marine/tank/medivac. Those are the backbone units of Terran. Mech is untenable because of how slow it is. Any other army composition is silly, gimmicky nonsense.
TvZ was by far the most liked matchup in competitive SC2 for the past year or so, once we regularly saw healthy midgames.
Marine/tank/medivac makes for micro-intensive, drop-intensive play. The more marine-heavy a style, the more tempo-based the games are. "Creative" sounds like gimmicky semi-all ins with risky tech, or passively building up to some late game miracle composition.
Mech is SO boring to watch it's not even funny.
I think you mean the current tvz pvz and tvp are SO boring to watch its not even funny. The mirrors are the best matchup to spectate atm (which is quite sad considering they were hated so much at the start) The non-mirror matchups are either blob vs blob or some stupid timing attack (zvp is almost always timing from p) and tvz will probably go in that direction as well. The patch essentially made tvz the same as pvz, where zerg gets completely free third and just chills on drones for the early game. Marine tank vs ling bane muta was the only point in sc2 where there was that "back and forth" element to the game(ignore mirror matchups). It is now completely non existant and the games come down to one big battle 90% of the time. Econ doesn't even play a large factor once the game reaches stalemate positions in lategame where both are maxed. Winner of battle wins the game, so exciting!
I hope alot of progamers switch from T> protoss or zerg. Some are allready doing it. Should really send a signal to Blizzard abaut their balance policy. TvZ went from the best matchup in the game to a zergfest.
Yeah queen buff was definitely silly. It's like saying "well shit ffe is the only opening protoss does pvz so it's clearly op. Gotta change that...from now on you need a stargate to make photon cannons." I don't really mind the overlord buff though, i think the less ways players have to die in silly ways (ie they miss scouting somethig), the better for the game.
Terrans need to adjust. Blizzard sayed "sorry you are too good with hellions we need to give the others more advantage". Pre 5 range queen you can say Terrans have a good early game and Zerg have a good lategame and 98% were fine. Now Z have the early T3 feeling high hp long range spellcaster Queen, a midgame with 2 2 upgrades at the 12 minute mark and still T3 units which are just better.
At the moment i play some sort of 1 rax expand --> 3 fax hellions --> Mech --> hidden BC´s to max out. I´m fine with that but it sucks really hard that i have only the choise to be a league better, to scv allin or to make a gimicky build and hope that my zerg friend never scouts.
All I know is TvZ is no longer enjoyable for me to watch at all. Used to be a great, dynamic, back and forth matchup, but now it seems as if Terrans are just frequently getting crushed. I don't think Terrans have suddenly gotten worse or that Zergs have suddenly gotten better either - Blizzard just nerfed one of the most standard openers out of existence and now Zerg are able to hold off almost every Terran all-in with 6 Queen builds.
Almost every ZvT I've watched recently my friend and I always see the insane creep spread at about 8 minutes and wonder if this is what blizzard had intended. Kinda reminds me of the season Nestea learned to use tumors
The problem with TvZ If left uncheked in the first 10 minutes, zerg will win in lategame. Risk free builds for Zerg against Terran all ins Great aggressive options for Zerg against Terran macro builds.
Terran has no good aggressive options anymore and no way to pressure the zerg if going for a macro builds, whilst zerg can do both. I don't mind because I just switched to Zerg after playing Terran for 1.5 years. I got bored from Terran.
On June 18 2012 08:03 yeint wrote: Steel, wouldn't a snipe un-nerf be a perfect solution? It wouldn't affect any of the other TvX matchups at all, and it would not require nerfing the Z directly.
I don't know man, Snipe was pretty strong...like blade said some maps were just unwinnable because the position for terran was too strong-can snipe with ghosts and stim marine, and can use emp to make sure you don't get fungalled. Maybe it was a map issue but unless Zerg was way, way ahead it was near impossible to win. The main problem wasn't broodlords though, it was ultras, with EMP and snipe they were useless and could just be kited all day.
Maybe a small snipe buff could be considered, but not like it was before I don't think. But I don't think thats the point, Zerg can get too far ahead early on and that's why Terran can't deal with their late game...
On June 18 2012 19:31 Recognizable wrote: The problem with TvZ If left uncheked in the first 10 minutes, zerg will win in lategame. Risk free builds for Zerg against Terran all ins Great aggressive options for Zerg against Terran macro builds.
Terran has no good aggressive options anymore and no way to pressure the zerg if going for a macro builds, whilst zerg can do both. I don't mind because I just switched to Zerg after playing Terran for 1.5 years. I got bored from Terran.
yeah, maybe a small exaggeration but that's what i mean- the old pressure builds do not work anymore, especially against the muta-less style. Terran has so many units and options however, and I don't think everything has been explored yet.
I honestly think fungal is far, far too strong. I don't for a minute think they will or even should make such a drastic change at this point, but definitely in HotS.
I don't know what Blizzard is thinking with the ability. It's far too high damage to also be a full duration root. Either make it a front loaded, undodgeable storm, or a somewhat longer duration no-damage root (perhaps lower energy cost for this). It should be an ability that prevents micro, not the highest DPS source in a lategame Zerg army.
Casters in general should be situational, not a swiss army knife unit that's pivotal from minute 10 to minute 60.
On June 18 2012 07:41 Jerubaal wrote: I'm trying to figure out why this is a featured blog. Is it because of the poster? Or because of general entertainment value?
this ! usually i really enjoy the featured blogs but this just seems silly...i mean sure the recent buffs helped zergs quite a bit but i think ur statements are to extreme...especially saying the matchup isnt worth watching anymore...TvZ has always been my favorite matchup to watch and still is. maybe even more since the patch because u dont see terran win with just hellions anymore but the game goes into the very exciting lategame more often.
On June 18 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote: Ok so pre-patch the Queen range was 3. Post patch it's 5. The obvious solution here is to just compromise and make it 4, then the matchup will once again be perfectly balanced :D
And I really am curious to start seeing new styles out of Terrans. All I see right now is Bio/Medivac or Marine/Tank/Medivac and it is beyond boring. And truthfully unless the Terran macros and/or drops their hearts out, it's easier for the zerg to win. So Bring on the new strategies creative Terrans, I can't wait for them!
What, unlike the uber-creative Zerg compositions of Infestor+whatever?
I don't understand the complaint about marine/tank/medivac. Those are the backbone units of Terran. Mech is untenable because of how slow it is. Any other army composition is silly, gimmicky nonsense.
TvZ was by far the most liked matchup in competitive SC2 for the past year or so, once we regularly saw healthy midgames.
Marine/tank/medivac makes for micro-intensive, drop-intensive play. The more marine-heavy a style, the more tempo-based the games are. "Creative" sounds like gimmicky semi-all ins with risky tech, or passively building up to some late game miracle composition.
Mech is SO boring to watch it's not even funny.
uber-creative Zerg compositions of Infestor+whatever
What other lair tech units are effective vs Terran? Hydras? No. Roaches? No. Mutas? Not anymore. Corrupters? What?? Its like telling terran not to make tanks the core. It's their best unit.
"Creative" sounds like gimmicky semi-all ins with risky tech, or passively building up to some late game miracle composition.
So basically... no one should ever need to try new strategies. Good defense. Who wants a dynamic game anyways?
Mech is SO boring to watch it's not even funny
1. This is your opinion. 2. If it works and wins the professionals money, who gives a damn about the spectators.
On June 18 2012 20:48 galtdunn wrote: What other lair tech units are effective vs Terran? Hydras? No. Roaches? No. Mutas? Not anymore. Corrupters? What?? Its like telling terran not to make tanks the core. It's their best unit.
Mutas. Speed banes.
So basically... no one should ever need to try new strategies. Good defense. Who wants a dynamic game anyways?
Style is not synonymous with strategy. There are two viable styles of TvZ, bio armies (with tank support) or mech armies. Anything else, like sky terran, is untenable gimmicky nonsense. None of this is strategy.
Strategy is timing, map control and information control. There is nothing "dynamic" or strategic about constant balance changes. Obviously strategies can and should (and do) change, but two years into the game is not the time to say "hey change the entire composition, marines bore me."
2. If it works and wins the professionals money, who gives a damn about the spectators.
The only reason anyone gives them money is because spectators watch them play.
On June 18 2012 18:47 RemarK wrote: All I know is TvZ is no longer enjoyable for me to watch at all. Used to be a great, dynamic, back and forth matchup, but now it seems as if Terrans are just frequently getting crushed. I don't think Terrans have suddenly gotten worse or that Zergs have suddenly gotten better either - Blizzard just nerfed one of the most standard openers out of existence and now Zerg are able to hold off almost every Terran all-in with 6 Queen builds.
If you are waiting till Zerg has 6 Queens then you are waiting too long. Think about openers that can hit earlier like gas before rax into reactor hellion which makes hellions arrive to z base before queens even pop out. Also OP says that bunker rushes are harder to do but not impossible, maybe that's what we should see more in the metagame shift into macro games. I don't believe it will ever be easy for zerg to defend against Maka rax into multiple scvs marine bunkers rush. Not many terrans think about putting first bunkers outside of vision range to cover next bunkers that are closer to the hatch in the nat.
On June 18 2012 20:12 yeint wrote: I honestly think fungal is far, far too strong. I don't for a minute think they will or even should make such a drastic change at this point, but definitely in HotS.
I don't know what Blizzard is thinking with the ability. It's far too high damage to also be a full duration root. Either make it a front loaded, undodgeable storm, or a somewhat longer duration no-damage root (perhaps lower energy cost for this). It should be an ability that prevents micro, not the highest DPS source in a lategame Zerg army.
Casters in general should be situational, not a swiss army knife unit that's pivotal from minute 10 to minute 60.
Don't you have Ghosts to deal with Infestors? With energy upgrade 2 Ghosts can snipe 3 Infestors or cloak and kill many more or EMP and also make many more clumped Infestors useless. And that can be done just with 75 starter energy, think about not letting Ghosts to die and refill with energy for more snipes and EMPs.
I can't imagine making the game boring by changing it into a blob fest with no enjoyable spells to watch. Also consider that SC2 has already weaker spells than BW.
How does Terran macro / late game go? I don't play SC2, but you'd think you could basically do what you do in BW, which is get 200/200 off 3 bases of mech and slowly crawl across the map never really leaving defensive positions for long and dropping like 50 mules at every new base with just a tonne of factories to rebuild whatever you lose.
Stephano's build is easy and optomized, from what I heard. Now Terran just needs an optomized equivilent to get them into the late game on even footing. Well, with heart of the swarm coming I suppose it doesn't matter for much longer.
On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote: I'm scared about the "finding something new" path because if anything gets found new that helps SO much to change or skew balance back in terran favor it gets nerfed.
This is what happens when you try to satisfy a bunch of whiners playing a game.
I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game.
But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better.
Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is.
Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke.
Hi, terran player here. My friend was telling me about these units the other day. The banshee, raven, thor and battlecruiser. I mean, they sound cool and all. But I still think I should be able to defeat zerg's T3 with my T1 bio. I guess I'm just lazy. See, I'd basically been getting free wins for the last year and a half with my T1 units. And now I'm being asked to actually explore new ideas and leave my comfort zone? I'm not too keen that.
The Queen buff pretty much showed what whe already knew from TvP: Terran lategame isn't that good. While some Terrans I know still have a decent winrate with lategame ravens and sky terran in general, I understand that it's probably to gimmicky to be standard (at least in it's current form).
Edit: I'm also not sure what I'm doing wrong in ZvT as I still regulary get owned by Hellion elevators :/ ( <--- not a high level Zerg)
If anyone's following Dream Hack, the final standings are 3/16 terrans and now two of those are already knocked out for the ro8. (and I would say Hero is favored against Taeja too, meaning it'd be 0/8 terrans left). And of course for the last Korean TSL qualifier, terran did spectacularly bad as well. I think Terran can only really win if they take advantage of timings and preparation.
On June 18 2012 21:31 Narw wrote: TvZ is fine, OP is a joke.
wow you sure won me over
I made a post that is appropriate to the "content" that is presented here. This is nothing more than bunch of whinning, it can't be treated seriously and it dosn't deserve any serious answers.
On June 18 2012 22:01 jdsowa wrote: Hi, terran player here. My friend was telling me about these units the other day. The banshee, raven, thor and battlecruiser. I mean, they sound cool and all. But I still think I should be able to defeat zerg's T3 with my T1 bio. I guess I'm just lazy. See, I'd basically been getting free wins for the last year and a half with my T1 units. And now I'm being asked to actually explore new ideas and leave my comfort zone? I'm not too keen that.
On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote: I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game.
But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro, because it's Jinro) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better.
Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is.
Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke.
That most likely worked because nerchio had almost no vision of the right side of the map. With proper scouting it would have been no problem to fend off those small attacks with groups of zerglings. The bottom line is that brat_ok was only able to put up a fight because he had superior multitasking and nerchio made a mistake.
On June 18 2012 21:31 Narw wrote: TvZ is fine, OP is a joke.
wow you sure won me over
I made a post that is appropriate to the "content" that is presented here. This is nothing more then bunch of whinning, it can't be treated seriously and it dosn't deserve any serious answers.
Agreed. I'm still wondering why this blog is featured. It's just a balance whine at its finest.
On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote: I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game.
But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro, because it's Jinro) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better.
Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is.
Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke.
That most likely worked because nerchio had almost no vision of the right side of the map. With proper scouting it would have been no problem to fend off those small attacks with groups of zerglings. The bottom line is that brat_ok was only able to put up a fight because he had superior multitasking and nerchio made a mistake.
Why do you think it's okay to devalue the results of a match like that? BratOK played really well, and he almost came back from a serious disadvantage with some really good drops and multitask, but Nerchio's macro, early-game control, and late-game crisis management and decision making allowed him to win in the end. The zerg won, but the game was not a joke. It was a good game where the player who played better won.
On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote: I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game.
But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better.
I completely and utterly agree with you.
When I lose it's because I played like shit. I don't personally find TvZ to be frustrating at all.
My complaint is as a spectator. Really really good terrans are playing really really good zergs and the games are horrible dreck.
On June 18 2012 21:31 Narw wrote: TvZ is fine, OP is a joke.
wow you sure won me over
I made a post that is appropriate to the "content" that is presented here. This is nothing more then bunch of whinning, it can't be treated seriously and it dosn't deserve any serious answers.
Agreed. I'm still wondering why this blog is featured. It's just a balance whine at its finest.
They feature authors, not their individual posts. Any post that a featured blogger makes is put in the sidebar, ordered chronologically by last post made in it. Why is this so hard to understand?
On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote: I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game.
But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better.
Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is.
Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke.
I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts.
If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience.
On June 18 2012 22:01 jdsowa wrote: Hi, terran player here. My friend was telling me about these units the other day. The banshee, raven, thor and battlecruiser. I mean, they sound cool and all. But I still think I should be able to defeat zerg's T3 with my T1 bio. I guess I'm just lazy. See, I'd basically been getting free wins for the last year and a half with my T1 units. And now I'm being asked to actually explore new ideas and leave my comfort zone? I'm not too keen that.
Because tanks and medivacs don't exist. Also Zerg never uses lings and roaches and banelings in the late game.
Also, face it, any unit with the word "cruiser" in its name is BW fan service at this point and isn't viable in much of anything.
Do you really think you added anything of value to this conversation with your nonsensical strawman?
On June 18 2012 13:13 iaguz wrote: People who think that ravens are the cure to TvZ are the same class of completely fucking retarded as those who thought nydus worms were the cure to ZvT back when it was horrible for zergs. The actual cures were balance changes, better maps and refinement of basic shit. Ravens are good at killing broods if you can turtle and get a bunch out with enough energy. This is a good strategy on metropolis because that is a map where it's super easy to do nothing but secure 5 bases and drop occasionally so you don't feel bad about doing nothing for 50 minutes. That's it. They tickle ultralisks and don't do much else. They're very expensive and take a long time to produce and build up energy for. If you get a bunch in preparation for broodlords and he goes ultralisks instead then you look extremely fucking stupid. And seeing as you have to start ravens well in time for broods, there's none of this scouting that'll help you.
TvZ right now feels awful as a terran currently. This isn't helped that being Australian my local scene is already full of bloody zergs already. Good ones. Anyway, it feels pretty awful, and that's mostly because of queens. I didn't mind a lot of the terran nerfs in the past, pretty much all of them really. Yea ghosts were kinda dumb with snipe. Gold bases were retarded. Blue flames were stupid. All good changes, and terrans soldiered on just fine because we were good players who didn't need things that stupid. Overlord change, yea ok zergs always felt uncomfortable early game dealing with 1 base plays they couldn't really see coming. Ok fine.
But queens are fucking imbalanced as they are now. A Zerg who sees you going 13 gas can get 2 queens and have no problem setting down creep. A zerg who sees you going 1 rax fe/14 CC can get 6 queens, 3 bases and 70 drones. If they lose drones to harassment they can just make more while the queen cleans it up. With 3 hatcheries and good injects they have all the larvae they need and with 2 saturated bases they have the money. Queens are a very strong defensive unit with no exploitable weaknesses. The only weaknesses they have are slow off creep, fat so they concave bad en masse and are psionic so they take 50 damage from ghost snipe. They are also a bit tricky to mass produce unlike roaches but that's ok you only need 6.
Apart from that they have roughly the same damage as roaches except they have more hp, don't have vulnerability to marauders, can attack air, can spread creep, can do injects, can heal things, don't cost gas, don't require much tech and fulfil the similar function to roaches which is keeping hellions away for cheap. Cheaper even. And unlike roaches again if you don't get much value out of them it's ok! If you make like 6 roaches when saturating 3 bases then you're stuck with this shitty unit that doesn't do much. If you make 3 additional queens then you can spread a shitload of creep and have leftover queens for when you make more hatcheries. There's pretty much no downside other then a vulnerability to mass marine/scv all in which I feel zergs will figure out soon (hint, use overlords to scout our gases. If no gas, make a baneling nest and get ready to freewin the terran) and the rest is upside; 3 saturated bases quick as you like and tons of creep. If the terran is greedy then it's probably ok since you're being pretty much as greedy as you can.
There's a lot of other things I could go on about as /whingyterran but queens are pretty much the biggest qualm I have with the mu. Either we get balance change or we get a revolutionist. Either way I hope we get one very soon.
Oh my god thank you. If I hear "make ravens man" one more time I'll slit my throat.
On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote: I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game.
But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better.
Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is.
Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke.
I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts.
If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience.
Aren't 3cc and 15cc supposed to lose to busts? It's a greedy build versus an allin before the extra economy makes you safe.
One thing I've noticed is that terrans who lose to busts tend to lose to busts when they don't have tanks or good simcity. This has only been in the streams I've watched (Idra has been up on these types of busts recently.) Confirm/deny?
On June 18 2012 21:31 Narw wrote: TvZ is fine, OP is a joke.
wow you sure won me over
I made a post that is appropriate to the "content" that is presented here. This is nothing more then bunch of whinning, it can't be treated seriously and it dosn't deserve any serious answers.
Agreed. I'm still wondering why this blog is featured. It's just a balance whine at its finest.
They feature authors, not their individual posts. Any post that a featured blogger makes is put in the sidebar, ordered chronologically by last post made in it. Why is this so hard to understand?
Yes I do. They certainly featured the wrong person. If you wanna post a lengthy balance whine, you can be a featured poster (whiner) on the bnet forums.
On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote: I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game.
But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro, because it's Jinro) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better.
Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is.
Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke.
That most likely worked because nerchio had almost no vision of the right side of the map. With proper scouting it would have been no problem to fend off those small attacks with groups of zerglings. The bottom line is that brat_ok was only able to put up a fight because he had superior multitasking and nerchio made a mistake.
Why do you think it's okay to devalue the results of a match like that? BratOK played really well, and he almost came back from a serious disadvantage with some really good drops and multitask, but Nerchio's macro, early-game control, and late-game crisis management and decision making allowed him to win in the end. The zerg won, but the game was not a joke. It was a good game where the player who played better won.
I think we should step back from discussing that game in this thread, so here is my last response on that topic + Show Spoiler +
I never said, that that game was a joke, and i don't believe it was, and I do not think i devalue the results of the match with pointing out why a certain tactic worked well and almost enabled brat_ok to make a comeback. Both Nerchio and Brat_ok are great players and both played well, the situation you have been pointing out and trying to make an example of just wasn't a good choice in my opinion.
On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote: I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game.
But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro, because it's Jinro) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better.
Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is.
Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke.
That most likely worked because nerchio had almost no vision of the right side of the map. With proper scouting it would have been no problem to fend off those small attacks with groups of zerglings. The bottom line is that brat_ok was only able to put up a fight because he had superior multitasking and nerchio made a mistake.
Why do you think it's okay to devalue the results of a match like that? BratOK played really well, and he almost came back from a serious disadvantage with some really good drops and multitask, but Nerchio's macro, early-game control, and late-game crisis management and decision making allowed him to win in the end. The zerg won, but the game was not a joke. It was a good game where the player who played better won.
I think we should step back from discussing that game in this thread, so here is my last response on that topic + Show Spoiler +
I never said, that that game was a joke, and i don't believe it was, and I do not think i devalue the results of the match with pointing out why a certain tactic worked well and almost enabled brat_ok to make a comeback. Both Nerchio and Brat_ok are great players and both played well, the situation you have been pointing out and trying to make an example of just wasn't a good choice in my opinion.
Agree, here's my last post on the topic as well + Show Spoiler +
The point I was trying to make is that TvZ is not an unwinnable MU or a MU where you have to outplay your opponent by an absurd amount to win, and that it's dynamic and tense, even when one side or the other wins. The tactic that BratOK used is not a particularly uncommon one, I see it all the time, and it's HOW you come back against a zerg with an eco advantage towards the lategame. You don't have to wait for your opponent to screw up for it to work, you can force it. That's all I'm saying - it's not a dead MU where one side steamrolls the other after a lose timer goes off or anything.
On June 18 2012 21:30 sluggaslamoo wrote: Nothing wrong with the buffs.
It just made light of a big gaping hole in the Terran race that we already knew existed since BETA.
What hole are you talking about? Terran's strength always was in early-mid game aggressive builds.
That's the gaping hole.
Its silly to think 1 and 2 base aggression can last forever. Eventually pros will figure out how to defend everything.
Flash broke BW in the same way that Overlord Speed and Queen range catalysed the evolution of defensive gameplay. Eventually pros will combine the list of extremely subtle hints and work out the exact build you are doing. Flash can go CC first against Protoss knowing that he knows exactly what build you are doing and where to scout it, even if its a proxy robo. Luckily Protoss can stand toe-to-toe with Terran late-game by being extra-greedy themselves, this is not the same for TvZ in SC2. There is no such thing as Terran greed, really.
Zerg was destined to be the strongest race simply due to spawn larva, I guess even Artosis thought this and that's why Idra picked Zerg, it was just a matter of how long.
All races should be good at being greedy and have strong late game compositions.
On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote: I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game.
But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better.
Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is.
Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke.
I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts.
If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience.
you know you can scan with terran right? the only way zerg can scout is with overlords. you can still shoot an overlord. you can not shoot a scan. Are you really suggesting that zerg shouldn't be allowed to scout?
terran doesn't HAVE TO make hellions to see an all in coming. terran probably has the easiest time scouting of any race. I think you dont get why people open hellions in the first place. Hint : scouting info is only a bonus. The reason people make hellions was in your post. You keep the zerg in his base, while you have map control. hellions beat lings therefore zerg can't have lings on the map.
you make it sound like medivac tech is so high up in the tech tree and takes forever to get. It isn't.
also dont compare apples with pears. what does having creep spread or ling speed as a zerg player have to do with anything terran or anything you said for that matter?
On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote: I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game.
But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better.
Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is.
Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke.
I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts.
If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience.
Wait, you are going hellions and speedlings lock you in the base?
On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote: I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game.
But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better.
Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is.
Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke.
I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts.
If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience.
Aren't 3cc and 15cc supposed to lose to busts? It's a greedy build versus an allin before the extra economy makes you safe.
One thing I've noticed is that terrans who lose to busts tend to lose to busts when they don't have tanks or good simcity. This has only been in the streams I've watched (Idra has been up on these types of busts recently.) Confirm/deny?
If you make tanks blindly you are *unreal* far behind vs a zerg who takes a 3rd and drones. He'll have 70 drones, a 3rd, 4 lings, and you still can't take your 3rd because you don't know how many lings he actually has.
On June 18 2012 21:31 Narw wrote: TvZ is fine, OP is a joke.
wow you sure won me over
I made a post that is appropriate to the "content" that is presented here. This is nothing more then bunch of whinning, it can't be treated seriously and it dosn't deserve any serious answers.
Agreed. I'm still wondering why this blog is featured. It's just a balance whine at its finest.
They feature authors, not their individual posts. Any post that a featured blogger makes is put in the sidebar, ordered chronologically by last post made in it. Why is this so hard to understand?
Yes I do. They certainly featured the wrong person. If you wanna post a lengthy balance whine, you can be a featured poster (whiner) on the bnet forums.
Do you not realize what a blog is? Even if this particular post is of substandard quality, that doesn't mean the rest of his posts are not worthy of being featured.
Blogs are personal posts, and people are allowed to speak their mind about their subjective opinions about matchups.
You, on the other hand, are being insulting and adding nothing of value to the conversation. Why is "balance whine" so bad, but all the ridiculous "make ravens and BCs your tier 1 a mover" non-comments aren't?
On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote: I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game.
But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better.
Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is.
Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke.
I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts.
If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience.
Wait, you are going hellions and speedlings lock you in the base?
On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote: I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game.
But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better.
Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is.
Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke.
I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts.
If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience.
Aren't 3cc and 15cc supposed to lose to busts? It's a greedy build versus an allin before the extra economy makes you safe.
One thing I've noticed is that terrans who lose to busts tend to lose to busts when they don't have tanks or good simcity. This has only been in the streams I've watched (Idra has been up on these types of busts recently.) Confirm/deny?
If you make tanks blindly you are *unreal* far behind vs a zerg who takes a 3rd and drones. He'll have 70 drones, a 3rd, 4 lings, and you still can't take your 3rd because you don't know how many lings he actually has.
Pretty much what jinro said. Tanks are a good unit, but when you make tanks in response to a zerg going super fast 3 hatch 70 drones then you're doing the Wrong Thing. Sadly a zerg who makes a 3rd hatchery and shows you a few extra queens can actually still be a zerg who wants to roach/bane you out of existence (see: a lot of unhappy terrans in GSL/GSTL) so it's sort of a case of get tanks and survive annoying timings, or get tanks and lose because of zerg economy.
Which has given me a bit of fuel for thought in my own play as far as openings go, but it's still a rather frustrating situation.
Try Hellion fe into bancheeze with stealth then get a raven while building and armory and 2nd factory for thors and transition into mech. Check Lyyna thread for mech tips and late game winning scenarios.
As a Zerg player I think it's pretty tough for Terran, honestly. For the first time I think Zerg really is favoured in this matchup. All I can say is that we have to wait a reasonnable amount of time before we can say it's really imbalanced. Obviously when you get nerfed there's a moment when players haven't adapted and lose, we see this everytime.
And die straight up to a roach/bling bust?no thx and by the time your mech army is strong enough,he stomps you with hivetech. You have to do dmg no matter what,and tell me,when was the last time you saw a cloakshee do dmg to a zerg? (2 port banshee is a cheese in my opinion,and the last time i saw it was Cloud,a year ago)
Your argument seems to be that TvZ isn't as fun to play or watch because it's harder and riskier for Terran to all in. That claim in and of itself is ridiculous and counter-intuitive. All-ins are supposed to be do-or-die, extremely risky plays. And in what twisted world is it more fun to watch successful all-ins over sick, edge-of-seat macro games?
Next you talk a lot about greed. You talk about how much greed zergs can 'get away with' simply by making a few extra spines and queens. You assert that Terran can't get away without any greed because of the myriad of zerg all-ins that are so potent against Terran. You neglect to mention, however any kinds of Terran aggression that can hit a Zerg off of two bases. Look at Polt's bio/hellion aggression that killed so many zergs in Anaheim, which transitions perfectly easily into a standard marine/tank play. You assert that Terran's can't play greedily but Zergs can, but that's crap. In particular:
On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote: Some of the best terran players are playing 15cc builds quite often these days, Taeja and MKP come to mind, but these builds automatically lose to some zerg builds if they choose to coin flip, MKP lost to back to back 6pools the other day in TSL4 KR qualifier. When I was complaining about this one of my friends on skype said "well everyone knows MKP is one of the greediest mofos around." Why can zerg exploit the greediest terran mofo around but terran cant do the same to zerg anymore?
A 15 hatch isn't as greedy as a 15 cc. Not by a longshot. Opening 15 CC against a 15 hatch, all else equal, puts the Terran way ahead. A 15 CC is closer to a 3-base before pool in terms of greed. That a Terran can punish a 3-hatch before pool play is without question.
I don't understand why you think this matchup is broken. The only people hurt by these nerfs are people who play extremely gimmicky and abusively. These patches didn't hurt macro terrans in the slightest, nor did it hurt aggressive terrans who don't all-in. Just because Banshees don't automatically get 5+ drones regardless of how the Zerg prepares doesn't mean that Banshees lose all of their utility.Just because Zerg can be aggressive doesn't mean Terran can't take economic risks and get away with it.
Your argument essentially defeats itself in this:
On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote: Honestly Terran cant make a single mistake at any point in a TvZ or they're basically going to autolose all the while hoping their zerg opponent makes massive mistakes (sometimes takes 3-4 huge mistakes in 1 game for T to win)
This is the mentality of someone who's bad at a matchup and doesn't want to admit it. It's a feeling of helplessness that leads one to redirect one's own failures on a cosmic, beyond-one's-control source. I feel the exact same way about TvP. But asserting that zerg necessarily has to make massive mistakes in order to lose is such a defeatist notion. StarCraft II is getting to the point wherein the better player wins. Patches aren't changing which race is inherently better than the others, but rather they are eliminating the ways in which worse players can beat better players by abusing a certain mechanic that's way easier to execute than to defend.
On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote: I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game.
But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better.
Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is.
Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke.
I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts.
If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience.
Aren't 3cc and 15cc supposed to lose to busts? It's a greedy build versus an allin before the extra economy makes you safe.
One thing I've noticed is that terrans who lose to busts tend to lose to busts when they don't have tanks or good simcity. This has only been in the streams I've watched (Idra has been up on these types of busts recently.) Confirm/deny?
If you make tanks blindly you are *unreal* far behind vs a zerg who takes a 3rd and drones. He'll have 70 drones, a 3rd, 4 lings, and you still can't take your 3rd because you don't know how many lings he actually has.
I see - thank you for the knowledge bomb! Kinda seems like the solution to this problem is more information, knowing when zerg is doing what. How that information is acquired, I've not a clue since Terran can't scout with hellion aggression as easily.
Overall it sounds like the core problem is that terrans are having a hard time being safe from this particular roach/baneling bust without a blind counter, since hellion aggression is not as effective as it used to be (resulting in a diminished ability to scout with aggression) causing them to turn to more eco-oriented solutions, causing zerg to refine the roach/ling/baneling bust. It reminds me a bit of when protoss was having a hard time vs the threat of 1/1/1. It seems like more of a metagame issue than anything, to be honest - or are terrans also thinking that the mid/late game are difficult to win without massively outplaying your opponent?
TvZ was the best matchup to spectate, the matchup that made me hope in sc2. Since the patch, no non mirror matchup is watchable anymore. At the exact moment blizzard is hoping to capt the broodwar audience, they make their game horrible to watch. Dat decision making.
On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote: I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game.
But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better.
Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is.
Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke.
I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts.
If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience.
you know you can scan with terran right? the only way zerg can scout is with overlords. you can still shoot an overlord. you can not shoot a scan. Are you really suggesting that zerg shouldn't be allowed to scout?
terran doesn't HAVE TO make hellions to see an all in coming. terran probably has the easiest time scouting of any race. I think you dont get why people open hellions in the first place. Hint : scouting info is only a bonus. The reason people make hellions was in your post. You keep the zerg in his base, while you have map control. hellions beat lings therefore zerg can't have lings on the map.
you make it sound like medivac tech is so high up in the tech tree and takes forever to get. It isn't.
also dont compare apples with pears. what does having creep spread or ling speed as a zerg player have to do with anything terran or anything you said for that matter?
The scan argument is getting old. No Terran is going to give up his early game MULEs to have a % chance at scouting an obscure metagame all-in that occurs 5% of ZvT's when in actuality they're losing 95% of their games due to the Zerg's explosive economy and production.
Insinuating that he's saying Zerg should be forbidden from scouting is overreacting a bit and taking his words out of context to stir drama, don't do that, it serves no purpose in a discussion besides making it impossible.
Your talk about the hellion is a bit out of place, hellion openers have become largely ineffective because of the Queen range icnrease, which is what the op presents as a problem in the current state of the TvZ matchup. Saying that hellion scouting is a "nice bonus" only proves that you're the one who has no idea of the hellions purpose in TvZ. You can't contain a Zerg who's building queens anymore because the units have the same range, Zerg doesn't have to build zerglings, only drones, that's the point. Queens with spinecrawlers just gives Zerg such a disproportionate amount of safety versus agressive Terran play despite the fact that they're only producing drones. And it's not like the extra Queens are dead weight since they can deal damage, spread creep faster than hellions can kill it and transfuse for clutch defense.
Medivacs are relatively high on the Terran tech tree, what's your point?
He's saying creep spread combined with speedlings gives you complete map vision and the highest speed force in the game. You've probably not experienced what it's like to move out with a Terran army, but there's no escape once you leave your base vs mass speedling infestor. You can't move out see you have an inferior army and back up to your base. Once you leave you've committed your entire army, making it hard to do any pressure besides all-ins, hellion (now mostly ineffective) and medivac harass (which all rely on Zerg failing to a certain extent).
Watch some high level replays from the Terran perspective to get an idea of how little vision they have in comparision to Zerg.
On June 18 2012 08:45 TERRANLOL wrote: You guys aren't excited for the impending patch? lol Terran hasn't been patched in forever. What will we get? a thor buff? THINK OF THE POSSIBILITIES
Salvage nerf revert.
omg
on topic: TvZ used to be the best matchup to play and to watch. Now it sukcs
On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote: I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game.
But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better.
Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is.
Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke.
I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts.
If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience.
you know you can scan with terran right? the only way zerg can scout is with overlords. you can still shoot an overlord. you can not shoot a scan. Are you really suggesting that zerg shouldn't be allowed to scout?
terran doesn't HAVE TO make hellions to see an all in coming. terran probably has the easiest time scouting of any race. I think you dont get why people open hellions in the first place. Hint : scouting info is only a bonus. The reason people make hellions was in your post. You keep the zerg in his base, while you have map control. hellions beat lings therefore zerg can't have lings on the map.
you make it sound like medivac tech is so high up in the tech tree and takes forever to get. It isn't.
also dont compare apples with pears. what does having creep spread or ling speed as a zerg player have to do with anything terran or anything you said for that matter?
The scan argument is getting old. No Terran is going to give up his early game MULEs to have a % chance at scouting an obscure metagame all-in that occurs 5% of ZvT's when in actuality they're losing 95% of their games due to the Zerg's explosive economy and production.
Insinuating that he's saying Zerg should be forbidden from scouting is overreacting a bit and taking his words out of context to stir drama, don't do that, it serves no purpose in a discussion besides making it impossible.
Your talk about the hellion is a bit out of place, hellion openers have become largely ineffective because of the Queen range icnrease, which is what the op presents as a problem in the current state of the TvZ matchup. Saying that hellion scouting is a "nice bonus" only proves that you're the one who has no idea of the hellions purpose in TvZ. You can't contain a Zerg who's building queens anymore because the units have the same range, Zerg doesn't have to build zerglings, only drones, that's the point. Queens with spinecrawlers just gives Zerg such a disproportionate amount of safety versus agressive Terran play despite the fact that they're only producing drones. And it's not like the extra Queens are dead weight since they can deal damage, spread creep faster than hellions can kill it and transfuse for clutch defense.
Medivacs are relatively high on the Terran tech tree, what's your point?
He's saying creep spread combined with speedlings gives you complete map vision and the highest speed force in the game. You've probably not experienced what it's like to move out with a Terran army, but there's no escape once you leave your base vs mass speedling infestor. You can't move out see you have an inferior army and back up to your base. Once you leave you've committed your entire army, making it hard to do any pressure besides all-ins, hellion (now mostly ineffective) and medivac harass (which all rely on Zerg failing to a certain extent).
Watch some high level replays from the Terran perspective to get an idea of how little vision they have in comparision to Zerg.
Maybe this is silly, but if terrans have a difficult time using hellions to get information, have any of you ever considered proxying a rax and floating it to get information? It takes an absurdly long time to kill with only queens, and you should easily be able to count drones / tech / timings to figure out if you need to play greedy or safe. Plus it's actually cheaper than making 4 hellions and a reactor, and you don't have to waste a mule.
May well be silly, but I feel like it's not entirely absurd.
The inability to bunker rush early game due to the queen range is just silly now! like seriously, I could build 3 bunkers with marine support, the zerg just a-moves his ling while then focusing down the scvs with his sniper queens.
Pisses me off so much that zerg can drone for 7 minutes straight and then go for a 12 minute hive
On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote: I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game.
But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better.
Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is.
Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke.
I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts.
If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience.
you know you can scan with terran right? the only way zerg can scout is with overlords. you can still shoot an overlord. you can not shoot a scan. Are you really suggesting that zerg shouldn't be allowed to scout?
terran doesn't HAVE TO make hellions to see an all in coming. terran probably has the easiest time scouting of any race. I think you dont get why people open hellions in the first place. Hint : scouting info is only a bonus. The reason people make hellions was in your post. You keep the zerg in his base, while you have map control. hellions beat lings therefore zerg can't have lings on the map.
you make it sound like medivac tech is so high up in the tech tree and takes forever to get. It isn't.
also dont compare apples with pears. what does having creep spread or ling speed as a zerg player have to do with anything terran or anything you said for that matter?
The scan argument is getting old. No Terran is going to give up his early game MULEs to have a % chance at scouting an obscure metagame all-in that occurs 5% of ZvT's when in actuality they're losing 95% of their games due to the Zerg's explosive economy and production.
Insinuating that he's saying Zerg should be forbidden from scouting is overreacting a bit and taking his words out of context to stir drama, don't do that, it serves no purpose in a discussion besides making it impossible.
Your talk about the hellion is a bit out of place, hellion openers have become largely ineffective because of the Queen range icnrease, which is what the op presents as a problem in the current state of the TvZ matchup. Saying that hellion scouting is a "nice bonus" only proves that you're the one who has no idea of the hellions purpose in TvZ. You can't contain a Zerg who's building queens anymore because the units have the same range, Zerg doesn't have to build zerglings, only drones, that's the point. Queens with spinecrawlers just gives Zerg such a disproportionate amount of safety versus agressive Terran play despite the fact that they're only producing drones. And it's not like the extra Queens are dead weight since they can deal damage, spread creep faster than hellions can kill it and transfuse for clutch defense.
Medivacs are relatively high on the Terran tech tree, what's your point?
He's saying creep spread combined with speedlings gives you complete map vision and the highest speed force in the game. You've probably not experienced what it's like to move out with a Terran army, but there's no escape once you leave your base vs mass speedling infestor. You can't move out see you have an inferior army and back up to your base. Once you leave you've committed your entire army, making it hard to do any pressure besides all-ins, hellion (now mostly ineffective) and medivac harass (which all rely on Zerg failing to a certain extent).
Watch some high level replays from the Terran perspective to get an idea of how little vision they have in comparision to Zerg.
Maybe this is silly, but if terrans have a difficult time using hellions to get information, have any of you ever considered proxying a rax and floating it to get information? It takes an absurdly long time to kill with only queens, and you should easily be able to count drones / tech / timings to figure out if you need to play greedy or safe. Plus it's actually cheaper than making 4 hellions and a reactor, and you don't have to waste a mule.
May well be silly, but I feel like it's not entirely absurd.
I feel like it'd be pretty easy for zerg to hide their drone count from a floating rax. But it is probably the cheapest reliable scout that terran has.
On June 18 2012 23:34 eu.exodus wrote: terran doesn't HAVE TO make hellions to see an all in coming. terran probably has the easiest time scouting of any race.
That made me laugh. Unfortunately, my friend, terran is not zerg and we don't have 60 workers by the 7-th minute mark, so when we are scanning, we are actually sacrificing economy because being 20 workers behind AND scanning is not fun at all
You aren't sacrificing anything by having creep spread all over the map, or by having overlords at the angles of the map. And I wish to see a terran that will consistently make vikings to clean up overlords vs a zerg that has muta, or actually, since infestors counter everything, one fungal and three infested terran, and no viking. Consider that you deny scouting with BOTH your tech paths (both muta and infestor provide crazy map control and are direct counters to what terran has to do to deny you scouting - raven, small groups of marines, viking) So you just deny scouting for free and get scouting for free (overlords are flying scout and supply depots, creep spread costs only energy and you make queens anyway for production). That is it. You get scouting for free and deny scouting for free. Yet terran has the easiest time scouting of any race. I am still laughing. Zerg lunacy has no ends.
Also, just as an experiment. Pick any random pro game in TvZ. Fast forward to minute 12. Check terran vision and check zerg vision. I bet you zerg is going to have about twice the vision that terran has. How is it terran having easy time scouting?
On June 18 2012 23:34 eu.exodus wrote: terran doesn't HAVE TO make hellions to see an all in coming. terran probably has the easiest time scouting of any race.
That made me laugh. Unfortunately, my friend, terran is not zerg and we don't have 60 workers by the 7-th minute mark, so when we are scanning, we are actually sacrificing economy because being 20 workers behind AND scanning is not fun at all
You aren't sacrificing anything by having creep spread all over the map, or by having overlords at the angles of the map. And I wish to see a terran that will consistently make vikings to clean up overlords vs a zerg that has muta, or actually, since infestors counter everything, one fungal and three infested terran, and no viking. Consider that you deny scouting with BOTH your tech paths (both muta and infestor provide crazy map control and are direct counters to what terran has to do to deny you scouting - raven, small groups of marines, viking) So you just deny scouting for free and get scouting for free (overlords are flying scout and supply depots, creep spread costs only energy and you make queens anyway for production). That is it. You get scouting for free and deny scouting for free. Yet terran has the easiest time scouting of any race. I am still laughing. Zerg lunacy has no ends.
Just go early 3CC mech and 1 scan is nothing. If you don't like mech GET 3CC'S ANYWAYS!!!! If your going to sit back and do nothing (like most terranes do) you might as well have the third cc. Those 400 minerals pay for themselves quickly and easily (allowing you to get 60 workers far more rapidly I might add)
I agree wholeheartedly. Especially about the 6 pool comment; I'm still astonished this horseshit coinflip hasn't been patched out of the game already. Just make it require 2 overlords on the field. I kinda don't mind zerg being a lot more resilient early game than before, but this is combined with insanely strong lategame making things totally broken. Infestors and hive tech units are straight up too damn good.
They should definitely revert snipe nerf for starters.
idunno, overlords seem better for scouting to me. but I play protoss so what would i know?
I think the Zerg buffs may be affecting PvZ a bit too, the creep spread makes proxy pylons for early aggression a bit harder, and those 10-15 seconds that the extra creep site buys the Zerg for making units throws off quite a few early timing attacks as well.
Queens are way too good now. They have the same range as a marine, and actually MORE dps. I shit you not. Before, you could exploit Zerg either with their lack of mobility or squishiness/larva cost. However, queens have neither of those problems. Moreover, they were essentially recyclable because you could always use them for something afterwards.
Zergs had basically three options to defend against earlygame aggression: 1. Zerglings. A significant larva cost, plus they're melee-only and quite squishy. 2. Spines. Losing a few drones, 150 minerals total for each one, can't be repositioned fast. 3. Queens.
Now its basically: 1. Zerglings. Make one or two pairs for scouting I guess. But why bother when you can make queens? 2. Spines. Make one at your nat or third I guess. But why bother when you can make queens? 3. Queens.
I'm beginning to agree with the snipe change to a degree, though I still feel its a little too good against Protoss. Perhaps making it so snipe does 1/2 damage to shields would help with that. (Don't complain, you still have EMP). Still, I'd like to see Ravens used more-- Terrans have the extra gas anyways.
Making a ton of bunkers as terran and playing absolutely defensive with no map presence and making a bunch of queens that hold off everything and contribute to insanely fast creep spread are completely different. Also the OP also wants to find a way to open with a macro style the doesn't straight up to die to a allin, which zerg is now totally safe from if he is competent at all. You seem to be missing the main points of the blog, I suggest you re-read it again. [/QUOTE] really? you read this as a strategy request blog?
queens, slow lings, slow banes and even infestors are all essentially defensive units, do you really think that there is no way for terran to take a fast 3rd against that? If it's a PF - or even an orbital defended by a few tanks and bunkers - zerg can't engage it before ultras.
i see your a zerg so let me tell this to u, do u REALLY think its ok for terran to take PF as 3rd CC ? =free win to zerg here yo i would RLY like to see zerg nerfed,after all my games and from what i seen,it seems hopeless for terran to win any tourneys or win against zerg overall, it requires ALOT of skill,macro,micro,structures from terran side to keep up,while zerg can have fast 3rd, build 4,5 queens and defend it ez against hellion harrass or something like that,like ppl say, zerg just needs to A-move into terran army, drop some EZPZ fungals and win every engagement, also dont forget that zerg's tech switching is million times faster than terran's,like...zerg starts with ling/bane,infestor, terran answers with marine/tank, and that zerg comp does alot of damage,and while that zerg is making a ultra cavern,and when his ling/bane dies (IF it dies) he just spams like 10-15 ultras that pop at once,and ofc terran has to switch to mass marauders and good zergs always know that,and when terran has like equal numbers of marines and marauders, by that time zerg has prob spamed shit lots of corrupters that are gona turn into shit lots of broodlords after his ultra army dies (IF it dies,again), and good terrans should know that,but when they have lots of medivacs,marines,tanks,marauders,theres just not that many supply left to take down the corrupters AND the broodlords,and terran also has to make air upgrades but most terrans would start em AFTER the broodlords are poped, and ofc most times vikings get fungaled aswell and die,so i pretty much want zerg to get nerfed so terran still has a chance of winning
On June 19 2012 03:05 ticklishmusic wrote: I'm beginning to agree with the snipe change to a degree, though I still feel its a little too good against Protoss. Perhaps making it so snipe does 1/2 damage to shields would help with that. (Don't complain, you still have EMP). Still, I'd like to see Ravens used more-- Terrans have the extra gas anyways.
Errm, where is Snipe really relevant in TvP except against HT's (which receive 50 dmg instead of 40 pre-patch anyway)? Against Zealots? But I agree on the main topic, though, Zergs playing insanely greedy nowadays by just going Queens seems to be way too riskless for me, if it doesn't cut into the Zerg's economy...
On June 19 2012 03:05 ticklishmusic wrote: I'm beginning to agree with the snipe change to a degree, though I still feel its a little too good against Protoss. Perhaps making it so snipe does 1/2 damage to shields would help with that. (Don't complain, you still have EMP).
Wait WHAT? How would that possibly be balanced when 50 energy on 1 ht completely negates 1 ghost for the next minute while it makes snipe incapable of killing anything? why would you ever choose snipe over emp if they both deal shield damage and only 2 units have more than 200 shield?
No offense but I haven't heard a balance idea so terrible since someone suggested that hellions should be able to attack while moving.
Making a ton of bunkers as terran and playing absolutely defensive with no map presence and making a bunch of queens that hold off everything and contribute to insanely fast creep spread are completely different. Also the OP also wants to find a way to open with a macro style the doesn't straight up to die to a allin, which zerg is now totally safe from if he is competent at all. You seem to be missing the main points of the blog, I suggest you re-read it again.
really? you read this as a strategy request blog?
queens, slow lings, slow banes and even infestors are all essentially defensive units, do you really think that there is no way for terran to take a fast 3rd against that? If it's a PF - or even an orbital defended by a few tanks and bunkers - zerg can't engage it before ultras.
i see your a zerg so let me tell this to u, do u REALLY think its ok for terran to take PF as 3rd CC ? =free win to zerg here yo i would RLY like to see zerg nerfed,after all my games and from what i seen,it seems hopeless for terran to win any tourneys or win against zerg overall, it requires ALOT of skill,macro,micro,structures from terran side to keep up,while zerg can have fast 3rd, build 4,5 queens and defend it ez against hellion harrass or something like that,like ppl say, zerg just needs to A-move into terran army, drop some EZPZ fungals and win every engagement, also dont forget that zerg's tech switching is million times faster than terran's,like...zerg starts with ling/bane,infestor, terran answers with marine/tank, and that zerg comp does alot of damage,and while that zerg is making a ultra cavern,and when his ling/bane dies (IF it dies) he just spams like 10-15 ultras that pop at once,and ofc terran has to switch to mass marauders and good zergs always know that,and when terran has like equal numbers of marines and marauders, by that time zerg has prob spamed shit lots of corrupters that are gona turn into shit lots of broodlords after his ultra army dies (IF it dies,again), and good terrans should know that,but when they have lots of medivacs,marines,tanks,marauders,theres just not that many supply left to take down the corrupters AND the broodlords,and terran also has to make air upgrades but most terrans would start em AFTER the broodlords are poped, and ofc most times vikings get fungaled aswell and die,so i pretty much want zerg to get nerfed so terran still has a chance of winning
Again, what is wrong with using ghosts against infestors?
I rarely agree with luckyfool, but today is that day. TvZ as we know it is no longer balanced, zerg gets a free third base and that alone is enough to tip the scales for me. I'm not so sure yet about the scouting of the overlords being too powerful, as it can be denied with marines if you're really on top of your game (but it's still going to see something).
Playing mech however, is still roughly the same if you open really greedy ad focus on denying intel as opposed to denying their third. If terran were given ghosts back, I'd say that yes, we still have options and possiblities to win (especially if they fixed snipe so that it wouldn't bug up every 2 seconds).
TvZ is currently in this state: If zerg doesn't make a big mistake (or 2 or 3), they win, no matter how good the terran player is playing.
WOW what a terran rage. U make mass bio and try and do insane micro/macro and wonder why you can't keep up. Terran players need to start abusing mass queen strats and getting those timings.
Hint:queens aren't free, if I make 4 or 5 queens off the start i'm not all inning you. So don't rant as if Zerg can all in whenever on a whim, because it doesn't work like that.
Also 1 base thor + repair beats mass queen spine.
Here are a few more tips for u noob terrans out there who complain about their race. 1. HUNT FOR OVIES, most zerg have bad pathing for ovies and if u snipe them early it denies scouting and puts the zerg behind. 2. make a few marines always, and leave one in a bunker at ur expo and bring the rest to ur main to DENY scouting, brilliant i know. 3. always make hellions and be active, or go some type of 2 rax, both of these will minimize all ins and allow u a lot of control in the early game
Making a ton of bunkers as terran and playing absolutely defensive with no map presence and making a bunch of queens that hold off everything and contribute to insanely fast creep spread are completely different. Also the OP also wants to find a way to open with a macro style the doesn't straight up to die to a allin, which zerg is now totally safe from if he is competent at all. You seem to be missing the main points of the blog, I suggest you re-read it again.
really? you read this as a strategy request blog?
queens, slow lings, slow banes and even infestors are all essentially defensive units, do you really think that there is no way for terran to take a fast 3rd against that? If it's a PF - or even an orbital defended by a few tanks and bunkers - zerg can't engage it before ultras.
i see your a zerg so let me tell this to u, do u REALLY think its ok for terran to take PF as 3rd CC ? =free win to zerg here yo i would RLY like to see zerg nerfed,after all my games and from what i seen,it seems hopeless for terran to win any tourneys or win against zerg overall, it requires ALOT of skill,macro,micro,structures from terran side to keep up,while zerg can have fast 3rd, build 4,5 queens and defend it ez against hellion harrass or something like that,like ppl say, zerg just needs to A-move into terran army, drop some EZPZ fungals and win every engagement, also dont forget that zerg's tech switching is million times faster than terran's,like...zerg starts with ling/bane,infestor, terran answers with marine/tank, and that zerg comp does alot of damage,and while that zerg is making a ultra cavern,and when his ling/bane dies (IF it dies) he just spams like 10-15 ultras that pop at once,and ofc terran has to switch to mass marauders and good zergs always know that,and when terran has like equal numbers of marines and marauders, by that time zerg has prob spamed shit lots of corrupters that are gona turn into shit lots of broodlords after his ultra army dies (IF it dies,again), and good terrans should know that,but when they have lots of medivacs,marines,tanks,marauders,theres just not that many supply left to take down the corrupters AND the broodlords,and terran also has to make air upgrades but most terrans would start em AFTER the broodlords are poped, and ofc most times vikings get fungaled aswell and die,so i pretty much want zerg to get nerfed so terran still has a chance of winning
Again, what is wrong with using ghosts against infestors?
the fact that the infestors are bulky and do not take as much AoE from EMP is one thing.
i think it was also mentioned previously how useless ghosts become against crackling army even after you take care of the infestors
i sadly have to agree, tvz sucks to watch now seems so onesided and used to be such an amazing matchup to watch, however its only the queen buff i disagree with i think it was completly retarded and blizz clearly didnt test it at all, however i think the overlord buff was great and was needed for sure, i miss the constant back and forth of tvz
I've been having trouble both TvP and TvZ lately, too, but this is a little heavy in QQ for my taste. All the same I have been getting frustrated in both matchups to the point of giving up and playing with random gimmicks. 1 rax reaper expand into 2 rax double reaper production holds up the Zerg's third base pretty well.
I think next I'm going to rush ghosts on two base, build 8-9 ghost academies, and start nuke pushing into his natural with a fresh nuke every 7 or 8 seconds so he doesn't have time to rush his army out and kill the ghost. If I start stockpiling gas early I can maybe keep up that push for a minute and kill his natural's hatchery before I run out of gas (figuratively and literally). The ghosts will also be convenient for sniping queens (they're psionic, remember?).
Just go early 3CC mech and 1 scan is nothing. If you don't like mech GET 3CC'S ANYWAYS!!!! If your going to sit back and do nothing (like most terranes do) you might as well have the third cc. Those 400 minerals pay for themselves quickly and easily (allowing you to get 60 workers far more rapidly I might add)
I am a masters terran player in EU and I guarantee you with 3CC opening vs 3 hatch opening, zerg can reach 60 workers before terran has reached 39 AND have a creep spread, AND have a map presence.
As for sitting back as a terran, unfortunately, this is a luxury that only zergs and tosses can afford. I don't know if you are in par with recent Blizzard announcements, but actually it is evident that if terran sits and does nothing, he is getting behind compared to a zerg/toss that does nothing . So I severely doubt that sitting back is what terrans do. Maybe at your league it is the case but then this league is below gold.
Thank you for also enlightening me that a 3cc opening might be good. However:
1. Terran gives map control for basically 6-7 minutes. For that time zerg can be either 6-exping or prepping for bane roach bust. There is NO WAY, I guarantee you, NO WAY, terran can guess what zerg is doing without wasting at least 3 scans.
2. If scouted which is basically super easy and equivalent to one overlord, 3cc gives zerg two options - droning like crazy, which actually will put terran's opening behind, or prepping for a high eco roach bane ling bust which, as we see in every match in recent months, is devastating and can't be stopped without tanks. Hence the 23% win rate of terran in GSL and GSTL
3. Before giving advice to a masters terran player, please provide information about your league and some sample replays where you play terran with the said opening and also provide minute marks at which we can check economy of terran compared to zerg.
Thank you for your reply. I am looking forward to the replays.
Making a ton of bunkers as terran and playing absolutely defensive with no map presence and making a bunch of queens that hold off everything and contribute to insanely fast creep spread are completely different. Also the OP also wants to find a way to open with a macro style the doesn't straight up to die to a allin, which zerg is now totally safe from if he is competent at all. You seem to be missing the main points of the blog, I suggest you re-read it again.
really? you read this as a strategy request blog?
queens, slow lings, slow banes and even infestors are all essentially defensive units, do you really think that there is no way for terran to take a fast 3rd against that? If it's a PF - or even an orbital defended by a few tanks and bunkers - zerg can't engage it before ultras.
i see your a zerg so let me tell this to u, do u REALLY think its ok for terran to take PF as 3rd CC ? =free win to zerg here yo i would RLY like to see zerg nerfed,after all my games and from what i seen,it seems hopeless for terran to win any tourneys or win against zerg overall, it requires ALOT of skill,macro,micro,structures from terran side to keep up,while zerg can have fast 3rd, build 4,5 queens and defend it ez against hellion harrass or something like that,like ppl say, zerg just needs to A-move into terran army, drop some EZPZ fungals and win every engagement, also dont forget that zerg's tech switching is million times faster than terran's,like...zerg starts with ling/bane,infestor, terran answers with marine/tank, and that zerg comp does alot of damage,and while that zerg is making a ultra cavern,and when his ling/bane dies (IF it dies) he just spams like 10-15 ultras that pop at once,and ofc terran has to switch to mass marauders and good zergs always know that,and when terran has like equal numbers of marines and marauders, by that time zerg has prob spamed shit lots of corrupters that are gona turn into shit lots of broodlords after his ultra army dies (IF it dies,again), and good terrans should know that,but when they have lots of medivacs,marines,tanks,marauders,theres just not that many supply left to take down the corrupters AND the broodlords,and terran also has to make air upgrades but most terrans would start em AFTER the broodlords are poped, and ofc most times vikings get fungaled aswell and die,so i pretty much want zerg to get nerfed so terran still has a chance of winning
Again, what is wrong with using ghosts against infestors?
the fact that the infestors are bulky and do not take as much AoE from EMP is one thing.
i think it was also mentioned previously how useless ghosts become against crackling army even after you take care of the infestors
So how many Infestors can be hit, 4-6? That's still enough, we are talking 200/100 for a ghost making 400/600 to 600/900 resources of units useless, how it's not a good trade? And what's more it's pretty easy calculation - would you rather have a dozen of marines in red after a fungal which means 600 minerals nearly lost for nothing or make a Ghost for 200/100 to prevent that? Multiply that by amount of Infestors that can be hit by an EMP and it suddenly becomes 50-60 marines getting their hps down to red or using a single ghost. People keep whining about Infestor's and Fungals so I keep asking what is wrong with Ghosts that they aren't mentioned at all.
On June 19 2012 04:04 Fog-of-War wrote: WOW what a terran rage. U make mass bio and try and do insane micro/macro and wonder why you can't keep up. Terran players need to start abusing mass queen strats and getting those timings.
Hint:queens aren't free, if I make 4 or 5 queens off the start i'm not all inning you. So don't rant as if Zerg can all in whenever on a whim, because it doesn't work like that.
Also 1 base thor + repair beats mass queen spine.
Here are a few more tips for u noob terrans out there who complain about their race. 1. HUNT FOR OVIES, most zerg have bad pathing for ovies and if u snipe them early it denies scouting and puts the zerg behind. 2. make a few marines always, and leave one in a bunker at ur expo and bring the rest to ur main to DENY scouting, brilliant i know. 3. always make hellions and be active, or go some type of 2 rax, both of these will minimize all ins and allow u a lot of control in the early game
I see your region and I am already sceptical. But of course, everybody is due respect, regardless of region. Therefore I would kindly ask you to provide replays where you successfully execute 1, 2 and 3 and also information about your current league.
On June 19 2012 03:05 ticklishmusic wrote: overlord: 1 larva, 100 minerals. Scan: 240 minerals or 8 supply
idunno, overlords seem better for scouting to me. but I play protoss so what would i know?
Scan is free. Also it's instant. And it won't die to a single marine. You trade energy for information or energy for money. AND YOU CAN COMPLAIN ABOUT IT BEING BAD
Making a ton of bunkers as terran and playing absolutely defensive with no map presence and making a bunch of queens that hold off everything and contribute to insanely fast creep spread are completely different. Also the OP also wants to find a way to open with a macro style the doesn't straight up to die to a allin, which zerg is now totally safe from if he is competent at all. You seem to be missing the main points of the blog, I suggest you re-read it again.
really? you read this as a strategy request blog?
queens, slow lings, slow banes and even infestors are all essentially defensive units, do you really think that there is no way for terran to take a fast 3rd against that? If it's a PF - or even an orbital defended by a few tanks and bunkers - zerg can't engage it before ultras.
i see your a zerg so let me tell this to u, do u REALLY think its ok for terran to take PF as 3rd CC ? =free win to zerg here yo i would RLY like to see zerg nerfed,after all my games and from what i seen,it seems hopeless for terran to win any tourneys or win against zerg overall, it requires ALOT of skill,macro,micro,structures from terran side to keep up,while zerg can have fast 3rd, build 4,5 queens and defend it ez against hellion harrass or something like that,like ppl say, zerg just needs to A-move into terran army, drop some EZPZ fungals and win every engagement, also dont forget that zerg's tech switching is million times faster than terran's,like...zerg starts with ling/bane,infestor, terran answers with marine/tank, and that zerg comp does alot of damage,and while that zerg is making a ultra cavern,and when his ling/bane dies (IF it dies) he just spams like 10-15 ultras that pop at once,and ofc terran has to switch to mass marauders and good zergs always know that,and when terran has like equal numbers of marines and marauders, by that time zerg has prob spamed shit lots of corrupters that are gona turn into shit lots of broodlords after his ultra army dies (IF it dies,again), and good terrans should know that,but when they have lots of medivacs,marines,tanks,marauders,theres just not that many supply left to take down the corrupters AND the broodlords,and terran also has to make air upgrades but most terrans would start em AFTER the broodlords are poped, and ofc most times vikings get fungaled aswell and die,so i pretty much want zerg to get nerfed so terran still has a chance of winning
Again, what is wrong with using ghosts against infestors?
the fact that the infestors are bulky and do not take as much AoE from EMP is one thing.
i think it was also mentioned previously how useless ghosts become against crackling army even after you take care of the infestors
So how many Infestors can be hit, 4-6? That's still enough, we are talking 200/100 for a ghost making 400/600 to 600/900 resources of units useless, how it's not a good trade? And what's more it's pretty easy calculation - would you rather have a dozen of marines in red after a fungal which means 600 minerals nearly lost for nothing or make a Ghost for 200/100 to prevent that? Multiply that by amount of Infestors that can be hit by an EMP and it suddenly becomes 50-60 marines getting their hps down to red or using a single ghost. People keep whining about Infestor's and Fungals so I keep asking what is wrong with Ghosts that they aren't mentioned at all.
oh, also forgot to mention. cloaked ghosts die pretty fast to fungals and speedlings
On June 19 2012 00:50 mbr2321 wrote: Your argument seems to be that TvZ isn't as fun to play or watch because it's harder and riskier for Terran to all in. That claim in and of itself is ridiculous and counter-intuitive. All-ins are supposed to be do-or-die, extremely risky plays. And in what twisted world is it more fun to watch successful all-ins over sick, edge-of-seat macro games?
Next you talk a lot about greed. You talk about how much greed zergs can 'get away with' simply by making a few extra spines and queens. You assert that Terran can't get away without any greed because of the myriad of zerg all-ins that are so potent against Terran. You neglect to mention, however any kinds of Terran aggression that can hit a Zerg off of two bases. Look at Polt's bio/hellion aggression that killed so many zergs in Anaheim, which transitions perfectly easily into a standard marine/tank play. You assert that Terran's can't play greedily but Zergs can, but that's crap. In particular:
On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote: Some of the best terran players are playing 15cc builds quite often these days, Taeja and MKP come to mind, but these builds automatically lose to some zerg builds if they choose to coin flip, MKP lost to back to back 6pools the other day in TSL4 KR qualifier. When I was complaining about this one of my friends on skype said "well everyone knows MKP is one of the greediest mofos around." Why can zerg exploit the greediest terran mofo around but terran cant do the same to zerg anymore?
A 15 hatch isn't as greedy as a 15 cc. Not by a longshot. Opening 15 CC against a 15 hatch, all else equal, puts the Terran way ahead. A 15 CC is closer to a 3-base before pool in terms of greed. That a Terran can punish a 3-hatch before pool play is without question.
I don't understand why you think this matchup is broken. The only people hurt by these nerfs are people who play extremely gimmicky and abusively. These patches didn't hurt macro terrans in the slightest, nor did it hurt aggressive terrans who don't all-in. Just because Banshees don't automatically get 5+ drones regardless of how the Zerg prepares doesn't mean that Banshees lose all of their utility.Just because Zerg can be aggressive doesn't mean Terran can't take economic risks and get away with it.
On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote: Honestly Terran cant make a single mistake at any point in a TvZ or they're basically going to autolose all the while hoping their zerg opponent makes massive mistakes (sometimes takes 3-4 huge mistakes in 1 game for T to win)
This is the mentality of someone who's bad at a matchup and doesn't want to admit it. It's a feeling of helplessness that leads one to redirect one's own failures on a cosmic, beyond-one's-control source. I feel the exact same way about TvP. But asserting that zerg necessarily has to make massive mistakes in order to lose is such a defeatist notion. StarCraft II is getting to the point wherein the better player wins. Patches aren't changing which race is inherently better than the others, but rather they are eliminating the ways in which worse players can beat better players by abusing a certain mechanic that's way easier to execute than to defend.
On June 19 2012 03:05 Drowsy wrote: I agree wholeheartedly. Especially about the 6 pool comment; I'm still astonished this horseshit coinflip hasn't been patched out of the game already. Just make it require 2 overlords on the field. I kinda don't mind zerg being a lot more resilient early game than before, but this is combined with insanely strong lategame making things totally broken. Infestors and hive tech units are straight up too damn good.
They should definitely revert snipe nerf for starters.
Wait so now terrans have a hard time against 6 pools? When they can have a full wall by the time lings get there, literally making it an insta-loss for zerg, and thus a HUGE gamble in any game?
This blog should just be removed imo. People are coming here just to add in the tears or tell terrans that the matchup is not broken when they don't understand anything about the matchup, or suggest stupid things. Rofl when people are still saying scan is good after two years...
On June 19 2012 05:08 KawaiiRice wrote: This blog should just be removed imo. People are coming here just to add in the tears or tell terrans that the matchup is not broken when they don't understand anything about the matchup, or suggest stupid things. Rofl when people are still saying scan is good after two years...
What someone needs to do is make a very informed blog in the general SC2 section perfectly illustrating the problem before it takes another 2 months for them to revert the TvZ changes or buff Terran lategame.
At this point it's unplayable, and I'm sure Terrans right now are all considering either race change, customs, or d3 until HOTS comes out or a patch.
On June 19 2012 03:05 Drowsy wrote: I agree wholeheartedly. Especially about the 6 pool comment; I'm still astonished this horseshit coinflip hasn't been patched out of the game already. Just make it require 2 overlords on the field. I kinda don't mind zerg being a lot more resilient early game than before, but this is combined with insanely strong lategame making things totally broken. Infestors and hive tech units are straight up too damn good.
They should definitely revert snipe nerf for starters.
Wait so now terrans have a hard time against 6 pools? When they can have a full wall by the time lings get there, literally making it an insta-loss for zerg, and thus a HUGE gamble in any game?
Indeed. The 6 pool argument is one of the stupidest arguments I've ever seen on TL. There has never been anything that is more bad vs a standard opening than 6 pool in sc2. If terran makes barracks before cc it loses 100% of the time regardless of micro. To even call it a coin flip suggests that it has a 50/50 chance of suceeding which is ridiculous in itself.
If you want to talk about coin flips then terran can proxy 2 rax bunker rush and that opening has a FAR greater chance of succeeding than 6 pool would ever have. If you don't think so then you're incredibly biased. Holding off a proxy 2 rax requires scouting it, pulling about 90% of your workers and microing well against the marines and scvs. Holding off a 6 pool requires you to rally your marine inside your base and bring 3 scvs to repair the wall.
Terran finally has to work to beat a zerg (not just rely on coinflipping with 1 base all ins) and they all just start complaining. How about you try to adapt mech+ravens+vikings or tankless bio instead of playing 4 month old strategies and whining about imba?
On June 18 2012 07:50 FinestHour wrote: Ravens suck for tvz. Name a high level terran that uses them consistently and also wins tournaments. Also, only three terrans in the RO16 for Dreamhack?
Look at the top 16 for MLG, an obviously much harder tournament than Dreamhack. Don't try to turn the happenings of one tournaments RO16 into an argument.
Just go early 3CC mech and 1 scan is nothing. If you don't like mech GET 3CC'S ANYWAYS!!!! If your going to sit back and do nothing (like most terranes do) you might as well have the third cc. Those 400 minerals pay for themselves quickly and easily (allowing you to get 60 workers far more rapidly I might add)
I am a masters terran player in EU and I guarantee you with 3CC opening vs 3 hatch opening, zerg can reach 60 workers before terran has reached 39 AND have a creep spread, AND have a map presence.
As for sitting back as a terran, unfortunately, this is a luxury that only zergs and tosses can afford. I don't know if you are in par with recent Blizzard announcements, but actually it is evident that if terran sits and does nothing, he is getting behind compared to a zerg/toss that does nothing . So I severely doubt that sitting back is what terrans do. Maybe at your league it is the case but then this league is below gold.
Thank you for also enlightening me that a 3cc opening might be good. However:
1. Terran gives map control for basically 6-7 minutes. For that time zerg can be either 6-exping or prepping for bane roach bust. There is NO WAY, I guarantee you, NO WAY, terran can guess what zerg is doing without wasting at least 3 scans.
2. If scouted which is basically super easy and equivalent to one overlord, 3cc gives zerg two options - droning like crazy, which actually will put terran's opening behind, or prepping for a high eco roach bane ling bust which, as we see in every match in recent months, is devastating and can't be stopped without tanks. Hence the 23% win rate of terran in GSL and GSTL
3. Before giving advice to a masters terran player, please provide information about your league and some sample replays where you play terran with the said opening and also provide minute marks at which we can check economy of terran compared to zerg.
Thank you for your reply. I am looking forward to the replays.
OK let's theorycraft then shall we? We keep on talking about zerg making nothing but queens and drones. What is good against queens? Marines. So we need to figure out a marine timing that hits zerg and punishes for greediness. I would say pump first 125 gas into tech lab and stim and 170 later attack with a pack of marines. Queens can be made only 1 at a time at a hatch and it takes 50 seconds to make one so we are talking 5-7 queens as defence. Definitely more than enough marines can be made during that time. There has to be a timing attack to explore as a terran.
Making a ton of bunkers as terran and playing absolutely defensive with no map presence and making a bunch of queens that hold off everything and contribute to insanely fast creep spread are completely different. Also the OP also wants to find a way to open with a macro style the doesn't straight up to die to a allin, which zerg is now totally safe from if he is competent at all. You seem to be missing the main points of the blog, I suggest you re-read it again.
really? you read this as a strategy request blog?
queens, slow lings, slow banes and even infestors are all essentially defensive units, do you really think that there is no way for terran to take a fast 3rd against that? If it's a PF - or even an orbital defended by a few tanks and bunkers - zerg can't engage it before ultras.
i see your a zerg so let me tell this to u, do u REALLY think its ok for terran to take PF as 3rd CC ? =free win to zerg here yo i would RLY like to see zerg nerfed,after all my games and from what i seen,it seems hopeless for terran to win any tourneys or win against zerg overall, it requires ALOT of skill,macro,micro,structures from terran side to keep up,while zerg can have fast 3rd, build 4,5 queens and defend it ez against hellion harrass or something like that,like ppl say, zerg just needs to A-move into terran army, drop some EZPZ fungals and win every engagement, also dont forget that zerg's tech switching is million times faster than terran's,like...zerg starts with ling/bane,infestor, terran answers with marine/tank, and that zerg comp does alot of damage,and while that zerg is making a ultra cavern,and when his ling/bane dies (IF it dies) he just spams like 10-15 ultras that pop at once,and ofc terran has to switch to mass marauders and good zergs always know that,and when terran has like equal numbers of marines and marauders, by that time zerg has prob spamed shit lots of corrupters that are gona turn into shit lots of broodlords after his ultra army dies (IF it dies,again), and good terrans should know that,but when they have lots of medivacs,marines,tanks,marauders,theres just not that many supply left to take down the corrupters AND the broodlords,and terran also has to make air upgrades but most terrans would start em AFTER the broodlords are poped, and ofc most times vikings get fungaled aswell and die,so i pretty much want zerg to get nerfed so terran still has a chance of winning
Again, what is wrong with using ghosts against infestors?
the fact that the infestors are bulky and do not take as much AoE from EMP is one thing.
i think it was also mentioned previously how useless ghosts become against crackling army even after you take care of the infestors
So how many Infestors can be hit, 4-6? That's still enough, we are talking 200/100 for a ghost making 400/600 to 600/900 resources of units useless, how it's not a good trade? And what's more it's pretty easy calculation - would you rather have a dozen of marines in red after a fungal which means 600 minerals nearly lost for nothing or make a Ghost for 200/100 to prevent that? Multiply that by amount of Infestors that can be hit by an EMP and it suddenly becomes 50-60 marines getting their hps down to red or using a single ghost. People keep whining about Infestor's and Fungals so I keep asking what is wrong with Ghosts that they aren't mentioned at all.
For 10 perfect clumped up infestors you need just 2 emps. But you're not gonna pull that off in a game, 6 emps should be enough though. (Remember you need to EMP twice if the infestor has more than 175 energy.)
I'll try it in my next game, turtle untill they've got that composition and see what will happen.
Also I'm wondering, are 3/3 cracklings cost effective against a ghost/marauder/medivac army?
Making a ton of bunkers as terran and playing absolutely defensive with no map presence and making a bunch of queens that hold off everything and contribute to insanely fast creep spread are completely different. Also the OP also wants to find a way to open with a macro style the doesn't straight up to die to a allin, which zerg is now totally safe from if he is competent at all. You seem to be missing the main points of the blog, I suggest you re-read it again.
really? you read this as a strategy request blog?
queens, slow lings, slow banes and even infestors are all essentially defensive units, do you really think that there is no way for terran to take a fast 3rd against that? If it's a PF - or even an orbital defended by a few tanks and bunkers - zerg can't engage it before ultras.
i see your a zerg so let me tell this to u, do u REALLY think its ok for terran to take PF as 3rd CC ? =free win to zerg here yo i would RLY like to see zerg nerfed,after all my games and from what i seen,it seems hopeless for terran to win any tourneys or win against zerg overall, it requires ALOT of skill,macro,micro,structures from terran side to keep up,while zerg can have fast 3rd, build 4,5 queens and defend it ez against hellion harrass or something like that,like ppl say, zerg just needs to A-move into terran army, drop some EZPZ fungals and win every engagement, also dont forget that zerg's tech switching is million times faster than terran's,like...zerg starts with ling/bane,infestor, terran answers with marine/tank, and that zerg comp does alot of damage,and while that zerg is making a ultra cavern,and when his ling/bane dies (IF it dies) he just spams like 10-15 ultras that pop at once,and ofc terran has to switch to mass marauders and good zergs always know that,and when terran has like equal numbers of marines and marauders, by that time zerg has prob spamed shit lots of corrupters that are gona turn into shit lots of broodlords after his ultra army dies (IF it dies,again), and good terrans should know that,but when they have lots of medivacs,marines,tanks,marauders,theres just not that many supply left to take down the corrupters AND the broodlords,and terran also has to make air upgrades but most terrans would start em AFTER the broodlords are poped, and ofc most times vikings get fungaled aswell and die,so i pretty much want zerg to get nerfed so terran still has a chance of winning
Again, what is wrong with using ghosts against infestors?
the fact that the infestors are bulky and do not take as much AoE from EMP is one thing.
i think it was also mentioned previously how useless ghosts become against crackling army even after you take care of the infestors
So how many Infestors can be hit, 4-6? That's still enough, we are talking 200/100 for a ghost making 400/600 to 600/900 resources of units useless, how it's not a good trade? And what's more it's pretty easy calculation - would you rather have a dozen of marines in red after a fungal which means 600 minerals nearly lost for nothing or make a Ghost for 200/100 to prevent that? Multiply that by amount of Infestors that can be hit by an EMP and it suddenly becomes 50-60 marines getting their hps down to red or using a single ghost. People keep whining about Infestor's and Fungals so I keep asking what is wrong with Ghosts that they aren't mentioned at all.
oh, also forgot to mention. cloaked ghosts die pretty fast to fungals and speedlings
Then you keep your marines close by to aid ghosts in need. And I think it's still a fair trade to sacrifice 1 Ghost for making 4-6 Infestors useless. Or bring 3+ spread out ghosts so zerg has no chance at fungaling them all before they cast EMPs. Sacrifice 1 or 2 and run back with the rest to reuse them later.
On June 18 2012 07:50 FinestHour wrote: Ravens suck for tvz. Name a high level terran that uses them consistently and also wins tournaments. Also, only three terrans in the RO16 for Dreamhack?
Look at the top 16 for MLG, an obviously much harder tournament than Dreamhack. Don't try to turn the happenings of one tournaments RO16 into an argument.
Where the winner says Zerg will beat terran unless the z makes a mistake? And top 4 Zerg at gigabyte
Also golden was neural parasiting ravens and reverse hsm/turreting mvpdream at gigabyte. What a trash unit
Making a ton of bunkers as terran and playing absolutely defensive with no map presence and making a bunch of queens that hold off everything and contribute to insanely fast creep spread are completely different. Also the OP also wants to find a way to open with a macro style the doesn't straight up to die to a allin, which zerg is now totally safe from if he is competent at all. You seem to be missing the main points of the blog, I suggest you re-read it again.
really? you read this as a strategy request blog?
queens, slow lings, slow banes and even infestors are all essentially defensive units, do you really think that there is no way for terran to take a fast 3rd against that? If it's a PF - or even an orbital defended by a few tanks and bunkers - zerg can't engage it before ultras.
i see your a zerg so let me tell this to u, do u REALLY think its ok for terran to take PF as 3rd CC ? =free win to zerg here yo i would RLY like to see zerg nerfed,after all my games and from what i seen,it seems hopeless for terran to win any tourneys or win against zerg overall, it requires ALOT of skill,macro,micro,structures from terran side to keep up,while zerg can have fast 3rd, build 4,5 queens and defend it ez against hellion harrass or something like that,like ppl say, zerg just needs to A-move into terran army, drop some EZPZ fungals and win every engagement, also dont forget that zerg's tech switching is million times faster than terran's,like...zerg starts with ling/bane,infestor, terran answers with marine/tank, and that zerg comp does alot of damage,and while that zerg is making a ultra cavern,and when his ling/bane dies (IF it dies) he just spams like 10-15 ultras that pop at once,and ofc terran has to switch to mass marauders and good zergs always know that,and when terran has like equal numbers of marines and marauders, by that time zerg has prob spamed shit lots of corrupters that are gona turn into shit lots of broodlords after his ultra army dies (IF it dies,again), and good terrans should know that,but when they have lots of medivacs,marines,tanks,marauders,theres just not that many supply left to take down the corrupters AND the broodlords,and terran also has to make air upgrades but most terrans would start em AFTER the broodlords are poped, and ofc most times vikings get fungaled aswell and die,so i pretty much want zerg to get nerfed so terran still has a chance of winning
Again, what is wrong with using ghosts against infestors?
the fact that the infestors are bulky and do not take as much AoE from EMP is one thing.
i think it was also mentioned previously how useless ghosts become against crackling army even after you take care of the infestors
So how many Infestors can be hit, 4-6? That's still enough, we are talking 200/100 for a ghost making 400/600 to 600/900 resources of units useless, how it's not a good trade? And what's more it's pretty easy calculation - would you rather have a dozen of marines in red after a fungal which means 600 minerals nearly lost for nothing or make a Ghost for 200/100 to prevent that? Multiply that by amount of Infestors that can be hit by an EMP and it suddenly becomes 50-60 marines getting their hps down to red or using a single ghost. People keep whining about Infestor's and Fungals so I keep asking what is wrong with Ghosts that they aren't mentioned at all.
oh, also forgot to mention. cloaked ghosts die pretty fast to fungals and speedlings
Then you keep your marines close by to aid ghosts in need. And I think it's still a fair trade to sacrifice 1 Ghost for making 4-6 Infestors useless. Or bring 3+ spread out ghosts so zerg has no chance at fungaling them all before they cast EMPs. Sacrifice 1 or 2 and run back with the rest to reuse them later.
You can only hit infestors if the Zerg screws up his position. You are lucky to hit one infestor... Let alone multiple rofl
Making a ton of bunkers as terran and playing absolutely defensive with no map presence and making a bunch of queens that hold off everything and contribute to insanely fast creep spread are completely different. Also the OP also wants to find a way to open with a macro style the doesn't straight up to die to a allin, which zerg is now totally safe from if he is competent at all. You seem to be missing the main points of the blog, I suggest you re-read it again.
really? you read this as a strategy request blog?
queens, slow lings, slow banes and even infestors are all essentially defensive units, do you really think that there is no way for terran to take a fast 3rd against that? If it's a PF - or even an orbital defended by a few tanks and bunkers - zerg can't engage it before ultras.
i see your a zerg so let me tell this to u, do u REALLY think its ok for terran to take PF as 3rd CC ? =free win to zerg here yo i would RLY like to see zerg nerfed,after all my games and from what i seen,it seems hopeless for terran to win any tourneys or win against zerg overall, it requires ALOT of skill,macro,micro,structures from terran side to keep up,while zerg can have fast 3rd, build 4,5 queens and defend it ez against hellion harrass or something like that,like ppl say, zerg just needs to A-move into terran army, drop some EZPZ fungals and win every engagement, also dont forget that zerg's tech switching is million times faster than terran's,like...zerg starts with ling/bane,infestor, terran answers with marine/tank, and that zerg comp does alot of damage,and while that zerg is making a ultra cavern,and when his ling/bane dies (IF it dies) he just spams like 10-15 ultras that pop at once,and ofc terran has to switch to mass marauders and good zergs always know that,and when terran has like equal numbers of marines and marauders, by that time zerg has prob spamed shit lots of corrupters that are gona turn into shit lots of broodlords after his ultra army dies (IF it dies,again), and good terrans should know that,but when they have lots of medivacs,marines,tanks,marauders,theres just not that many supply left to take down the corrupters AND the broodlords,and terran also has to make air upgrades but most terrans would start em AFTER the broodlords are poped, and ofc most times vikings get fungaled aswell and die,so i pretty much want zerg to get nerfed so terran still has a chance of winning
Again, what is wrong with using ghosts against infestors?
the fact that the infestors are bulky and do not take as much AoE from EMP is one thing.
i think it was also mentioned previously how useless ghosts become against crackling army even after you take care of the infestors
So how many Infestors can be hit, 4-6? That's still enough, we are talking 200/100 for a ghost making 400/600 to 600/900 resources of units useless, how it's not a good trade? And what's more it's pretty easy calculation - would you rather have a dozen of marines in red after a fungal which means 600 minerals nearly lost for nothing or make a Ghost for 200/100 to prevent that? Multiply that by amount of Infestors that can be hit by an EMP and it suddenly becomes 50-60 marines getting their hps down to red or using a single ghost. People keep whining about Infestor's and Fungals so I keep asking what is wrong with Ghosts that they aren't mentioned at all.
For 10 perfect clumped up infestors you need just 2 emps. But you're not gonna pull that off in a game, 6 emps should be enough though. (Remember you need to EMP twice if the infestor has more than 175 energy.)
I'll try it in my next game, turtle untill they've got that composition and see what will happen.
Also I'm wondering, are 3/3 cracklings cost effective against a ghost/marauder/medivac army?
I believe it's 100 energy not 175. Good luck in your games, have a fun EMP hunting. Also no idea if cracklings are cost effective against that combo but why would you go nearly pure marauder against lings?
On June 19 2012 05:33 etofok wrote: If zerg spots any sort of 'early stim timing attack' he simply places A spine and you will die to 5 queens w/ lings under spine and being on creep.
But we keep on talking about pure queen drone so far. IF, if zerg spots that attack he may prepare. Do not let him scout it and it's not that hard when he like 2-4 lings on the map and maybe 2 overlords. Keep the majority of marines hidden, kill scouts with the rest. Also if there is a threat of lings deflecting the attack then after stim make a fac and a reactor with the next 150 gas and attack with marine hellion. Guys we need to start somewhere to address the problem.
On June 18 2012 07:50 FinestHour wrote: Ravens suck for tvz. Name a high level terran that uses them consistently and also wins tournaments. Also, only three terrans in the RO16 for Dreamhack?
Look at the top 16 for MLG, an obviously much harder tournament than Dreamhack. Don't try to turn the happenings of one tournaments RO16 into an argument.
Where the winner says Zerg will beat terran unless the z makes a mistake? And top 4 Zerg at gigabyte
Also golden was neural parasiting ravens and reverse hsm/turreting mvpdream at gigabyte. What a trash unit
And yet again, where are the ghosts when we are talking about infestors? I may not know shit but I think Raven has a potential to explore.
Making a ton of bunkers as terran and playing absolutely defensive with no map presence and making a bunch of queens that hold off everything and contribute to insanely fast creep spread are completely different. Also the OP also wants to find a way to open with a macro style the doesn't straight up to die to a allin, which zerg is now totally safe from if he is competent at all. You seem to be missing the main points of the blog, I suggest you re-read it again.
really? you read this as a strategy request blog?
queens, slow lings, slow banes and even infestors are all essentially defensive units, do you really think that there is no way for terran to take a fast 3rd against that? If it's a PF - or even an orbital defended by a few tanks and bunkers - zerg can't engage it before ultras.
i see your a zerg so let me tell this to u, do u REALLY think its ok for terran to take PF as 3rd CC ? =free win to zerg here yo i would RLY like to see zerg nerfed,after all my games and from what i seen,it seems hopeless for terran to win any tourneys or win against zerg overall, it requires ALOT of skill,macro,micro,structures from terran side to keep up,while zerg can have fast 3rd, build 4,5 queens and defend it ez against hellion harrass or something like that,like ppl say, zerg just needs to A-move into terran army, drop some EZPZ fungals and win every engagement, also dont forget that zerg's tech switching is million times faster than terran's,like...zerg starts with ling/bane,infestor, terran answers with marine/tank, and that zerg comp does alot of damage,and while that zerg is making a ultra cavern,and when his ling/bane dies (IF it dies) he just spams like 10-15 ultras that pop at once,and ofc terran has to switch to mass marauders and good zergs always know that,and when terran has like equal numbers of marines and marauders, by that time zerg has prob spamed shit lots of corrupters that are gona turn into shit lots of broodlords after his ultra army dies (IF it dies,again), and good terrans should know that,but when they have lots of medivacs,marines,tanks,marauders,theres just not that many supply left to take down the corrupters AND the broodlords,and terran also has to make air upgrades but most terrans would start em AFTER the broodlords are poped, and ofc most times vikings get fungaled aswell and die,so i pretty much want zerg to get nerfed so terran still has a chance of winning
Again, what is wrong with using ghosts against infestors?
the fact that the infestors are bulky and do not take as much AoE from EMP is one thing.
i think it was also mentioned previously how useless ghosts become against crackling army even after you take care of the infestors
So how many Infestors can be hit, 4-6? That's still enough, we are talking 200/100 for a ghost making 400/600 to 600/900 resources of units useless, how it's not a good trade? And what's more it's pretty easy calculation - would you rather have a dozen of marines in red after a fungal which means 600 minerals nearly lost for nothing or make a Ghost for 200/100 to prevent that? Multiply that by amount of Infestors that can be hit by an EMP and it suddenly becomes 50-60 marines getting their hps down to red or using a single ghost. People keep whining about Infestor's and Fungals so I keep asking what is wrong with Ghosts that they aren't mentioned at all.
oh, also forgot to mention. cloaked ghosts die pretty fast to fungals and speedlings
Then you keep your marines close by to aid ghosts in need. And I think it's still a fair trade to sacrifice 1 Ghost for making 4-6 Infestors useless. Or bring 3+ spread out ghosts so zerg has no chance at fungaling them all before they cast EMPs. Sacrifice 1 or 2 and run back with the rest to reuse them later.
You can only hit infestors if the Zerg screws up his position. You are lucky to hit one infestor... Let alone multiple rofl
Give me examples please. Either VODs or reps and I am pretty sure it can be proven Terran didn't try hard enough.
Mvpdream had Viking raven and ghost and got smashed in every big fight. Raven is utter trash and relies on the Zerg having a seizure during the game and clumping every bl for you and not even fungaling ravens as they approach. I've seen some of goldens reps where mma would try hsming with 8+ ravens and kill NOTHING because units are actually (gasp) spread or ravens got fungaled and targeted, or bl got transfused.
How the fk does terrans effort change the fact that there are bls and overseers hovering over infestors
It's extremely difficult to assemble an effective army to win an engagement against late game Zerg armies with the ghost having been patched as it was. Late game TvZ is devolving into constantly running around his army killing hatcheries while clinging on at home, with very little else. Seeker Missile is strong but is not a reliable spell in the same way storm and fungal are, for reasons which should be obvious - and add to this the difficulty of transitioning to Ravens, which involves waiting until they have 125 energy, and hoping that if you trade armies you don't get run over by his reinforcements while you rebuild and recharge.
It's also unavoidable (to me, at least, after playing both races in Masters) that managing an army consisting of bio, tanks, maybe some vikings, and ravens (not to mention drops trying to kill hatcheries and whatever tech) is significantly more difficult than typical Zerg late game armies.
On June 19 2012 03:05 Drowsy wrote: I agree wholeheartedly. Especially about the 6 pool comment; I'm still astonished this horseshit coinflip hasn't been patched out of the game already. Just make it require 2 overlords on the field. I kinda don't mind zerg being a lot more resilient early game than before, but this is combined with insanely strong lategame making things totally broken. Infestors and hive tech units are straight up too damn good.
They should definitely revert snipe nerf for starters.
On June 19 2012 05:59 KawaiiRice wrote: Mvpdream had Viking raven and ghost and got smashed in every big fight. Raven is utter trash and relies on the Zerg having a seizure during the game and clumping every bl for you and not even fungaling ravens as they approach. I've seen some of goldens reps where mma would try hsming with 8+ ravens and kill NOTHING because units are actually (gasp) spread or ravens got fungaled and targeted, or bl got transfused.
I guess Ravens are not meant to be an anti brood lord unit. I wonder about using ravens against lings, banes and mutas though. And not like hsming from 1000 miles away but flying with them close enough to the targeted units so right after launching hsms, hsms get their acceleration and actually kill stuff.
How the fk does terrans effort change the fact that there are bls and overseers hovering over infestors
I'm guessing there is a possibility to draw brood lord attention and fire with some (suicidal) units and coming from a different angle with spread out ghosts to emp infestors.
edit
On June 19 2012 06:06 KawaiiRice wrote: It would be interesting if hsm had more range than fungal and a faster travel time... Still doesn't fix midgame but lategame might be viable then..
I really don't believe ravens are supposed to target bls, small and middle sized units rather but the only middle sized units are infestors and those wont let ravens to get close by fungaling them :/
On June 18 2012 07:50 FinestHour wrote: Ravens suck for tvz. Name a high level terran that uses them consistently and also wins tournaments. Also, only three terrans in the RO16 for Dreamhack?
Look at the top 16 for MLG, an obviously much harder tournament than Dreamhack. Don't try to turn the happenings of one tournaments RO16 into an argument.
all the players at dreamhack fought for their place in the bracket. MLG's players are majorly seeded.
This beetlelisk guy is quite the character. Such theorycrafting is inane and simply trying to divert the attention that the actual problem that needs to be addressed. All of your questions have already been answered by progamers and higher league individuals, therefore I just don't understand your reason for continuing to grasp at straws.
On June 19 2012 07:00 EienShinwa wrote: This beetlelisk guy is quite the character. Such theorycrafting is inane and simply trying to divert the attention that the actual problem that needs to be addressed. All of your questions have already been answered by progamers and higher league individuals, therefore I just don't understand your reason for continuing to grasp at straws.
Lol what questions and what answers? I believe to be the first to asking my questions so how can they already be answered? And how am I diverting the attention??? I am diving directly into specifics of the problem, am I not?
On June 19 2012 03:05 ticklishmusic wrote: I'm beginning to agree with the snipe change to a degree, though I still feel its a little too good against Protoss. Perhaps making it so snipe does 1/2 damage to shields would help with that. (Don't complain, you still have EMP).
Wait WHAT? How would that possibly be balanced when 50 energy on 1 ht completely negates 1 ghost for the next minute while it makes snipe incapable of killing anything? why would you ever choose snipe over emp if they both deal shield damage and only 2 units have more than 200 shield?
No offense but I haven't heard a balance idea so terrible since someone suggested that hellions should be able to attack while moving.
No offense, but saying no offense makes me facepalm.
I was referring to reversing the ghost nerf-- it was in the post right above mine though unfortunately I didn't make that clear. 25 dmg + 25 vs psionic makes it almost useless as I'm sure most people will agree.
I would like to see ghosts do their regular old 40 damage again so they could be viable against Zerg, but the half shield damage would make it so they didn't just completely rape HT/zealot by spamming a single button. I think it would make T think a little bit about what spells they wanted to spam on P a little more. It's not much of a fix, but hopefully it would give T a unit which could do something against Z while not making it too good against P as it used to be.
I also want to point out that EMPing a HT makes it completely useless for a minute as well, and that sniping it makes it useless forever. Plus, HT move slower than ghosts and are much more of an investment given they're T3 and Protoss being a more gas heavy race in general. If you want to complain about feedback'd ghosts, I'll complain about how EMP makes P deathballs ~70% less effective b/c no energy and no shields.
If its really that terribad a suggestion, please, make a better one.
I see a lot of posts about ravens, so I'm just going to put my own insight into this. I've experimented with raven builds before on a masters level acc and here are my conclusions: 1. super super super weak early game. I've experimented with bunkers, banshees, seige timings for defense but nothing worked against any sort of ling bling, ling bling roach, or heavy roach ling aggression before 9minutes. because of the high gas cost of ravens and starports, ideally you want to get up to three bases before production. Unlike protoss which has forcefields to defend, terran simply cannot handle the zerg agression right now with their current arsenal. Bunkers need repairing which delays mining and puts scvs at a high risk. banshees and tanks both delay ravens too much and are produced too slowly if going for a raven composition. 2. Ravens seem only to work during mid game. They are never all that good against a direct engagement but rather flying around all the bases and dropping auto turrets seem to be the best use for them. At around mid game you should have about 5-10 of these flying around harassing as much as possible while building up towards the perfect sky terran army. ravens are good against mutas if zerg chooses to use them to defend and can avoid corruptors. Only major concern is mass spores to shut down your harass, but if that occurs just save energy for a pdd or 2 then fly in and drop mass turrets. 3. during late mid game to early late game ravens become rather useless. ravens need to get to within 2 range usually for a HSM to go off properly, but this is easily countered by fungals. The drop low range for auto turrets is also shut down the same way. Any competent zerg player should be able to shut down ravens at this point. 4. if somehow you made it to super late game through insane harass or major fail on the zerg's part then you've won. Nothing beats battlecruiser banshee viking raven composition. mutas don't hit bcs hard enough, and are shut down by ravens PDD. Corrupters are also shut down by PDD and correct viking counts. Hydras are shut down by PDD and HSMs. Fungals dont kill bcs fast enough and bcs can easily yamato infestors before they get close enough. Overall I don't think ravens will be viable until some terran out there figures a way to defend perfectly without spending too much resources to delay your first raven past the 15min mark....or if ravens were buffed to actually do their job better withou't being shut down so easily
On June 19 2012 07:00 EienShinwa wrote: This beetlelisk guy is quite the character. Such theorycrafting is inane and simply trying to divert the attention that the actual problem that needs to be addressed. All of your questions have already been answered by progamers and higher league individuals, therefore I just don't understand your reason for continuing to grasp at straws.
Lol what questions and what answers? I believe to be the first to asking my questions so how can they already be answered? And how am I diverting the attention??? I am diving directly into specifics of the problem, am I not?
Most of your questions like getting ghosts to emp infestors and potential to use ravens in the TvZ mu are nonsensical. It's already been proven that it's gimmicky, not standard, and most importantly not very feasible to effectively use those units to their supposed maximum potential when they can be abused so easily.
Ghosts are incredibly slow and emp is very hard to use on infestors when there are lings, banelings, and ultralisks in front of them. Even if you cloak, the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3 and then all your ghosts will be insta-killed because he'll know and fungal. To tell us that we should split ghosts and take our time sniping all of your 8-10 infestors is fucking ridiculous. Additionally, you're just relying on luck that he will keep all his infestors clumped together if you think you'll get them all the first round. Why must we rely on luck? All this proves is that Terran must play exponentially better than the Zerg, who is a moving with his army and keeping all his infestors together to mass fungal the terran's army. Why are we required to outplay Zerg by trying to emp all your infestors with 1-2 ghosts at a time, while keeping up with macro cycles, not getting supply blocked, making more buildings, expanding, etc? Granted, you're also doing the same, but imagine trying to use 1-2 burrowed infestors at a time to get rid of tank siege line positions. Do you understand why it's so illogical? Ravens are in a similar situation, when that even if they launch heat seeker missiles into groups of infestors and zerglings, because of the insanely slow speed of the HSM and of the raven, you'll be incredibly lucky to hit more than 1 if not 1. Then they'll just get fungaled and killed. Unless you ask we should do the same thing you suggested with the ghost. I already explained that above.The thing that is most important to note is that both of these spell casters for terran only have projectile spells that are slower than the other races' spells and are not cost efficient due to the fact that the apm required to skillfully and efficiently use them is just insane.
It's also completely bullshit that people are commenting that terran should rely on ghosts and ravens more, but that's fucking stupid. Why must we rely entirely on these two spellcasters to win us the game?Terran is fundamentally different from Zerg and Protoss in that we can't make units instantaneously. Getting ravens and ghosts early for us doesn't help us, it fucking hurts us. We need those extra marines, marauders, medivacs, and vikings to fucking attack early like the retarded ass game designers at Blizzard want. Take a moment to understand this sentence: The longer the game goes on, the fucking harder it is for us to win.
On June 19 2012 07:13 DTK920 wrote: I see a lot of posts about ravens, so I'm just going to put my own insight into this. I've experimented with raven builds before on a masters level acc and here are my conclusions: 1. super super super weak early game. I've experimented with bunkers, banshees, seige timings for defense but nothing worked against any sort of ling bling, ling bling roach, or heavy roach ling aggression before 9minutes. because of the high gas cost of ravens and starports, ideally you want to get up to three bases before production. Unlike protoss which has forcefields to defend, terran simply cannot handle the zerg agression right now with their current arsenal. Bunkers need repairing which delays mining and puts scvs at a high risk. banshees and tanks both delay ravens too much and are produced too slowly if going for a raven composition. 2. Ravens seem only to work during mid game. They are never all that good against a direct engagement but rather flying around all the bases and dropping auto turrets seem to be the best use for them. At around mid game you should have about 5-10 of these flying around harassing as much as possible while building up towards the perfect sky terran army. ravens are good against mutas if zerg chooses to use them to defend and can avoid corruptors. Only major concern is mass spores to shut down your harass, but if that occurs just save energy for a pdd or 2 then fly in and drop mass turrets. 3. during late mid game to early late game ravens become rather useless. ravens need to get to within 2 range usually for a HSM to go off properly, but this is easily countered by fungals. The drop low range for auto turrets is also shut down the same way. Any competent zerg player should be able to shut down ravens at this point. 4. if somehow you made it to super late game through insane harass or major fail on the zerg's part then you've won. Nothing beats battlecruiser banshee viking raven composition. mutas don't hit bcs hard enough, and are shut down by ravens PDD. Corrupters are also shut down by PDD and correct viking counts. Hydras are shut down by PDD and HSMs. Fungals dont kill bcs fast enough and bcs can easily yamato infestors before they get close enough. Overall I don't think ravens will be viable until some terran out there figures a way to defend perfectly without spending too much resources to delay your first raven past the 15min mark....or if ravens were buffed to actually do their job better withou't being shut down so easily
agree with you completely, but there aren't too many maps this is viable on, as well as the points that you listed
On June 19 2012 07:00 EienShinwa wrote: This beetlelisk guy is quite the character. Such theorycrafting is inane and simply trying to divert the attention that the actual problem that needs to be addressed. All of your questions have already been answered by progamers and higher league individuals, therefore I just don't understand your reason for continuing to grasp at straws.
Lol what questions and what answers? I believe to be the first to asking my questions so how can they already be answered? And how am I diverting the attention??? I am diving directly into specifics of the problem, am I not?
Most of your questions like getting ghosts to emp infestors and potential to use ravens in the TvZ mu are nonsensical. It's already been proven that it's gimmicky, not standard, and most importantly not very feasible to effectively use those units to their supposed maximum potential when they can be abused so easily.
I don't see using ghosts to be proven as impossible or "not feasible" in this thread, even though I asked for VODs or replays. I don't know how using Ravens against lings, banes and mutas is nonsensical as I don't believe they were ever used to do that, instead they were always used as anti brood lord weapon. We simply don't have the data to state that.
Ghosts are incredibly slow and emp is very hard to use on infestors when there are lings, banelings, and ultralisks in front of them. Even if you cloak, the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3 and then all your ghosts will be insta-killed because he'll know and fungal.
That's why I keep on saying to spread out ghosts. Also give me an example of "the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3" in the form of a VOD or a replay. And also by the time you have ghosts you sure do have medivacs so there is anything needed to bypass zerg fighting units and reach the infestors with EMPs, either by ground or air, in medivacs.
To tell us that we should split ghosts and take our time sniping all of your 8-10 infestors is fucking ridiculous.
I haven't ever said to snipe and I don't see how it's ridiculous.
Additionally, you're just relying on luck that he will keep all his infestors clumped together if you think you'll get them all the first round. Why must we rely on luck?
What luck are you talking about? It's only natural that they are clumped because units in SC2 naturally get clumped when being moved around. And Infestors are being clumped because good players keep them on a different hot key. Since so many people in this thread are completely missing the anti-caster role of the ghost I guess zergs don't really feel the need to spread out their infestors when there is not a single ghost on the field in most of their games, so they get used to it and never spread their Infestors.
All this proves is that Terran must play exponentially better than the Zerg,
You haven't proven anything.
[the Zerg] who is a moving with his army and keeping all his infestors together to mass fungal the terran's army. Why are we required to outplay Zerg by trying to emp all your infestors with 1-2 ghosts at a time, while keeping up with macro cycles, not getting supply blocked, making more buildings, expanding, etc?
This is ridiculous, it's like saying zerg doesn't have to do the same or even more in terms of expanding.
Granted, you're also doing the same, but imagine trying to use 1-2 burrowed infestors at a time to get rid of tank siege line positions. Do you understand why it's so illogical? Ravens are in a similar situation, when that even if they launch heat seeker missiles into groups of infestors and zerglings, because of the insanely slow speed of the HSM and of the raven, you'll be incredibly lucky to hit more than 1 if not 1.
That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away.
Then they'll just get fungaled and killed. Unless you ask we should do the same thing you suggested with the ghost. I already explained that above.The thing that is most important to note is that both of these spell casters for terran only have projectile spells that are slower than the other races' spells and are not cost efficient due to the fact that the apm required to skillfully and efficiently use them is just insane.
Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane.
It's also completely bullshit that people are commenting that terran should rely on ghosts and ravens more, but that's fucking stupid. Why must we rely entirely on these two spellcasters to win us the game?
I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier.
Terran is fundamentally different from Zerg and Protoss in that we can't make units instantaneously.
Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too.
Getting ravens and ghosts early for us doesn't help us, it fucking hurts us. We need those extra marines, marauders, medivacs, and vikings to fucking attack early like the retarded ass game designers at Blizzard want.
I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP.
Take a moment to understand this sentence: The longer the game goes on, the fucking harder it is for us to win.
There is nothing to understand, there is a lot to prove to be correct.
Have you ever even played terran? It's really not that hard to at least sympathize with how insanely difficult it is to play the race late game. If every TOP LEVEL terran is saying that you have to play exponentially better than your zerg opponent to win, that's as close to proof that a statement like that is going to get.
On June 18 2012 08:13 FinestHour wrote: [...] the sad fact is that 5-6 queens and 2 spines beat every single kind of attack before ten minutes. No competent zerg loses to any kind of timing attack these days and if you don't succeed in killing a fair amount of drones you might as well just leave.
5-6 queens and 2 spines? are you suggesting that the zerg investing 1100 minerals into purely defensive units should be insufficient to hold an all-in? if you made 7 bunkers and took a fast 3rd, would you be upset to lose to an all-in? probably.
7 full bunkers is 2100 minerals, and to cover two expansions it's only 3/4 each, one or either of which could still fail to stop an allin thanks to banelings' splash
There's nothing to "prove". Why do you want people to present empirical evidence as to why something does or does not work or what favors who when anyone who has watched and followed the game for the past 2 months could easily verify that zergs are favored in the later stages of the game. Hell, blizzard practically admitted to designing the game this way in an interview. It's like arguing vs someone who has never heard about starcraft 2 before. Hey guess what, if you micro every single unit perfectly then you'll beat someone else. But what has that proven? Nothing but the fact that someone else played way better than another player. You can't provide a replay of something "not" working because you can always point out mistakes from a micro perspective. Oh, they didn't emp every single infestor! Get back to me when he does that! Or let's say a heat seeker missile hits a clump of broodlords. Yeah, then goes the counter argument that they never should have been hit in the first place.
In any case, any sort of adaptation has its limits. We'll find out soon enough. But we may as well buff marine range by 5 and tell everyone else to "adapt" and explore hydras.
On June 19 2012 00:50 mbr2321 wrote: Your argument seems to be that TvZ isn't as fun to play or watch because it's harder and riskier for Terran to all in. That claim in and of itself is ridiculous and counter-intuitive. All-ins are supposed to be do-or-die, extremely risky plays. And in what twisted world is it more fun to watch successful all-ins over sick, edge-of-seat macro games?
Next you talk a lot about greed. You talk about how much greed zergs can 'get away with' simply by making a few extra spines and queens. You assert that Terran can't get away without any greed because of the myriad of zerg all-ins that are so potent against Terran. You neglect to mention, however any kinds of Terran aggression that can hit a Zerg off of two bases. Look at Polt's bio/hellion aggression that killed so many zergs in Anaheim, which transitions perfectly easily into a standard marine/tank play. You assert that Terran's can't play greedily but Zergs can, but that's crap. In particular:
On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote: Some of the best terran players are playing 15cc builds quite often these days, Taeja and MKP come to mind, but these builds automatically lose to some zerg builds if they choose to coin flip, MKP lost to back to back 6pools the other day in TSL4 KR qualifier. When I was complaining about this one of my friends on skype said "well everyone knows MKP is one of the greediest mofos around." Why can zerg exploit the greediest terran mofo around but terran cant do the same to zerg anymore?
A 15 hatch isn't as greedy as a 15 cc. Not by a longshot. Opening 15 CC against a 15 hatch, all else equal, puts the Terran way ahead. A 15 CC is closer to a 3-base before pool in terms of greed. That a Terran can punish a 3-hatch before pool play is without question.
I don't understand why you think this matchup is broken. The only people hurt by these nerfs are people who play extremely gimmicky and abusively. These patches didn't hurt macro terrans in the slightest, nor did it hurt aggressive terrans who don't all-in. Just because Banshees don't automatically get 5+ drones regardless of how the Zerg prepares doesn't mean that Banshees lose all of their utility.Just because Zerg can be aggressive doesn't mean Terran can't take economic risks and get away with it.
On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote: Honestly Terran cant make a single mistake at any point in a TvZ or they're basically going to autolose all the while hoping their zerg opponent makes massive mistakes (sometimes takes 3-4 huge mistakes in 1 game for T to win)
This is the mentality of someone who's bad at a matchup and doesn't want to admit it. It's a feeling of helplessness that leads one to redirect one's own failures on a cosmic, beyond-one's-control source. I feel the exact same way about TvP. But asserting that zerg necessarily has to make massive mistakes in order to lose is such a defeatist notion. StarCraft II is getting to the point wherein the better player wins. Patches aren't changing which race is inherently better than the others, but rather they are eliminating the ways in which worse players can beat better players by abusing a certain mechanic that's way easier to execute than to defend.
This is my favorite post from this whole thread.
dawwwwwwww thanks. It's nice to be appreciated. The funny thing is I play terran too xD
I thought crying about imbalance was banned on TL. Also, most of your whining seems to come down to (TLDR) "I don't scout vs Z but they do scout me and I lose. Why did I lose TL, Zerg is OP, DUH."
funny how all the "advice" for terran players in this thread are coming from zerg players who have no understanding about the viability of anything they're saying.
On June 19 2012 09:35 JoeSchmoe wrote: funny how all the "advice" for terran players in this thread are coming from zerg players who have no understanding about the viability of anything they're saying.
probably because that is the only advice being given in this thread. The rest of the posts are Terrans crying over how imbalanced this game is now.
Holy Fucking shi- now you're just giving out fucking excuses in the form of asking for empirical evidence. You're LITERALLY grabbing at straws at this point. You've been theorycrafting this entire time and yet when someone tries to prove you wrong, you simply cry "show me a vod". There were many things in your response that made me scoff in disbelief at how ignorant or unknowing you are in TvZ, but I'll focus on the major ones that irked me.
That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away.
Think about it. WHAT fucking zerg will let a terran let a raven let alone ravens near enough their army to release flying bombs that move at 0.5 speed with a shitty range? Are you that desperate to defend your claim that ravens have potential, that you actually believe a zerg will let ravens near their masses of lings, ultras, infestors, etc?
Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane.
I don't know if you actually tried EMPing fucking anything, but in SCII, units move, believe it or not. And Zerg moves the fucking fastest. It's hard enough to try and emp Protoss while they are moving around and not lose ghosts uselessly, but Zerg? The major problem here is the amount of DPS that SCII units do. As a result of this, trying to emp infestors behind enemy lines is not worth the risk the rewards may bring. Even if you EMP the infestors, it doesn't mean you can kill all the cracklings + ultras + banelings, or kill all the cracklings+banelings+broodlords. To say that you can EMP or snipe any amount of infestors while zerglings move at the speed of light and fungal will instantly catch ghosts is easier said than done. It's fucking near impossible. Ever try EMPing the Protoss army before engagement? Because units move so fucking fast, the skill to accurately EMP units on target due to the fact that EMP is a projectile is incredibly difficult. This is an excuse, yes, but I hope you know how hard it is to EMP on constantly moving units when your ghosts are fucking slow as shit. You don't even know half of it if you haven't played Terran before.
I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier.
Do you know why people use tanks at all? Tanks believe it or not, still are effective in TvZ until broodlords. And they can actually, you know, kill shit while the only use for ghosts is to EMP infestors. Now think about this, commit a large amount of resources for the CHANCE, a fucking CHANCE, to not even kill but EMP infestors or have tanks that GUARANTEE some kills, whether this be target firing infestors, killing masses of lings, or barraging utralisks.
Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too.
I hope you're trolling or your ability to make any sort of claims go right out the fucking window.
I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP.
I don't think you understand this from a Terran perspective. Making ghosts in TvZ is not a credible option, it's a fucking risk. You aren't guaranteed to EMP ANY infestors let alone kill them with ghosts. And to get all the upgrades necessary is a HUGE risk you are taking just to take care of infestors. Getting those ghosts leaves you in a do-or-die situation. You can get those magical EMPs that get EVERY SINGLE infestor, or you miss one or two and get steamrolled, because you spent your resources on those ghosts that could have gone to extra marines, marauders, medivacs, tanks, etc. And even if you EMP every infestor, that doesn't guarantee jack shit - he can still have more units than you because you stupidly spent all that money on ghosts.
You're completely over reacting and dismissing nukes. Everyone said Ultras and Nydus were shit; now it's being incorporated and no one is saying "Wow, what dodgy gimmicky play to use ultras!"
Ghosts are not useless. Ghosts are no longer end all OP units that stop ultras, brood lords and even banelings. Your spell casting unit can do all kinds of neat shit and still be of use in a fight.
On June 19 2012 09:26 Gako wrote: I thought crying about imbalance was banned on TL. Also, most of your whining seems to come down to (TLDR) "I don't scout vs Z but they do scout me and I lose. Why did I lose TL, Zerg is OP, DUH."
Not unless there is a solid statement to be made. And trust me, people know damn well that Terran is having major problems. It's not a mistep from TL.net. They check every single post, nevermind thread.
I'm with you OP. Terran has been nerfed to the ground. Look at Dreamhack Terran participation and results lol.
On June 19 2012 05:08 KawaiiRice wrote: This blog should just be removed imo. People are coming here just to add in the tears or tell terrans that the matchup is not broken when they don't understand anything about the matchup, or suggest stupid things. Rofl when people are still saying scan is good after two years...
What someone needs to do is make a very informed blog in the general SC2 section perfectly illustrating the problem before it takes another 2 months for them to revert the TvZ changes or buff Terran lategame.
At this point it's unplayable, and I'm sure Terrans right now are all considering either race change, customs, or d3 until HOTS comes out or a patch.
As a Master Terran, I have done 2 of the ones, suggested by avilo (customs and diablo 3)... Been playing Terran since the beginning.
On June 19 2012 00:50 mbr2321 wrote: Your argument seems to be that TvZ isn't as fun to play or watch because it's harder and riskier for Terran to all in. That claim in and of itself is ridiculous and counter-intuitive. All-ins are supposed to be do-or-die, extremely risky plays. And in what twisted world is it more fun to watch successful all-ins over sick, edge-of-seat macro games?
Next you talk a lot about greed. You talk about how much greed zergs can 'get away with' simply by making a few extra spines and queens. You assert that Terran can't get away without any greed because of the myriad of zerg all-ins that are so potent against Terran. You neglect to mention, however any kinds of Terran aggression that can hit a Zerg off of two bases. Look at Polt's bio/hellion aggression that killed so many zergs in Anaheim, which transitions perfectly easily into a standard marine/tank play. You assert that Terran's can't play greedily but Zergs can, but that's crap. In particular:
On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote: Some of the best terran players are playing 15cc builds quite often these days, Taeja and MKP come to mind, but these builds automatically lose to some zerg builds if they choose to coin flip, MKP lost to back to back 6pools the other day in TSL4 KR qualifier. When I was complaining about this one of my friends on skype said "well everyone knows MKP is one of the greediest mofos around." Why can zerg exploit the greediest terran mofo around but terran cant do the same to zerg anymore?
A 15 hatch isn't as greedy as a 15 cc. Not by a longshot. Opening 15 CC against a 15 hatch, all else equal, puts the Terran way ahead. A 15 CC is closer to a 3-base before pool in terms of greed. That a Terran can punish a 3-hatch before pool play is without question.
I don't understand why you think this matchup is broken. The only people hurt by these nerfs are people who play extremely gimmicky and abusively. These patches didn't hurt macro terrans in the slightest, nor did it hurt aggressive terrans who don't all-in. Just because Banshees don't automatically get 5+ drones regardless of how the Zerg prepares doesn't mean that Banshees lose all of their utility.Just because Zerg can be aggressive doesn't mean Terran can't take economic risks and get away with it.
Your argument essentially defeats itself in this:
On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote: Honestly Terran cant make a single mistake at any point in a TvZ or they're basically going to autolose all the while hoping their zerg opponent makes massive mistakes (sometimes takes 3-4 huge mistakes in 1 game for T to win)
This is the mentality of someone who's bad at a matchup and doesn't want to admit it. It's a feeling of helplessness that leads one to redirect one's own failures on a cosmic, beyond-one's-control source. I feel the exact same way about TvP. But asserting that zerg necessarily has to make massive mistakes in order to lose is such a defeatist notion. StarCraft II is getting to the point wherein the better player wins. Patches aren't changing which race is inherently better than the others, but rather they are eliminating the ways in which worse players can beat better players by abusing a certain mechanic that's way easier to execute than to defend.
Quote DRG ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge."
Quote MVP "Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg."
"I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist."
"I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything. "
Quote Supernova "It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. "
so MVP and supernova are defeatists now.
There are 4 options right now.
Terran figures something out and it gets patched because its too strong (happens every few months) Terrans figure something out and it doesn't get patched (hasnt happened yet) Blizzard patches the game and fixes the problem (happens occasionally) Blizzard makes bunkers build faster (hasn't happened yet)
On June 19 2012 10:03 Probe1 wrote: You're completely over reacting and dismissing nukes. Everyone said Ultras and Nydus were shit; now it's being incorporated and no one is saying "Wow, what dodgy gimmicky play to use ultras!"
Ghosts are not useless. Ghosts are no longer end all OP units that stop ultras, brood lords and even banelings. Your spell casting unit can do all kinds of neat shit and still be of use in a fight.
Ultras are still shit, it's just that they can be gotten in a safer manner thanks to terrans getting shit on, so you end up with a.advantage and if o really don't want to micro brood lord investor then you can just ultra ling investor and a move with de cent success unless you are playing someone who is a lot better than you.
I find it kind of odd how strongly people say this is a pointless balance whine when basically every pro player and top korean interviewed and noteable player that's posted in this thread has said they feel there is currently an issue. (notable players who've posted in here agreeing are Jinro, KawaiiRice, QuanticHawk(ZERG PLAYER) to name a few)
Sure maybe I went a little far and exaggerated a few points a bit much but I really feel strongly about the issue. I want this game to be the best it can be.
I think it's too soon to come to any reasonable conclusions about TvZ. From my limited/lower skill perspective it seems like there is room for terran to re-think their strategies and update their late game (more raven? more nuke? something else) before OMG ZERG IMBA is a conclusion.
On June 19 2012 12:01 Bigtony wrote: I think it's too soon to come to any reasonable conclusions about TvZ. From my limited/lower skill perspective it seems like there is room for terran to re-think their strategies and update their late game (more raven? more nuke? something else) before OMG ZERG IMBA is a conclusion.
Well, from my higher skill (unless you are a solid GM player/pro) perspective I'll disagree :<
I'm still curious as to which units zerg can build instantaneously as was stated previously. As far as I know protoss has the quickest unit build out of gateway and it's still not instant.
Even though I haven't played much lately so I don't totally know if Z is actually overpowered in this matchup now, but I have to say, I find it very hard to have sympathy for the terrans considering how horribly broken ZvT was in favor of the terrans for the first year and a half or so that the game was out
On June 19 2012 00:50 mbr2321 wrote: Your argument seems to be that TvZ isn't as fun to play or watch because it's harder and riskier for Terran to all in. That claim in and of itself is ridiculous and counter-intuitive. All-ins are supposed to be do-or-die, extremely risky plays. And in what twisted world is it more fun to watch successful all-ins over sick, edge-of-seat macro games?
Next you talk a lot about greed. You talk about how much greed zergs can 'get away with' simply by making a few extra spines and queens. You assert that Terran can't get away without any greed because of the myriad of zerg all-ins that are so potent against Terran. You neglect to mention, however any kinds of Terran aggression that can hit a Zerg off of two bases. Look at Polt's bio/hellion aggression that killed so many zergs in Anaheim, which transitions perfectly easily into a standard marine/tank play. You assert that Terran's can't play greedily but Zergs can, but that's crap. In particular:
On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote: Some of the best terran players are playing 15cc builds quite often these days, Taeja and MKP come to mind, but these builds automatically lose to some zerg builds if they choose to coin flip, MKP lost to back to back 6pools the other day in TSL4 KR qualifier. When I was complaining about this one of my friends on skype said "well everyone knows MKP is one of the greediest mofos around." Why can zerg exploit the greediest terran mofo around but terran cant do the same to zerg anymore?
A 15 hatch isn't as greedy as a 15 cc. Not by a longshot. Opening 15 CC against a 15 hatch, all else equal, puts the Terran way ahead. A 15 CC is closer to a 3-base before pool in terms of greed. That a Terran can punish a 3-hatch before pool play is without question.
I don't understand why you think this matchup is broken. The only people hurt by these nerfs are people who play extremely gimmicky and abusively. These patches didn't hurt macro terrans in the slightest, nor did it hurt aggressive terrans who don't all-in. Just because Banshees don't automatically get 5+ drones regardless of how the Zerg prepares doesn't mean that Banshees lose all of their utility.Just because Zerg can be aggressive doesn't mean Terran can't take economic risks and get away with it.
Your argument essentially defeats itself in this:
On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote: Honestly Terran cant make a single mistake at any point in a TvZ or they're basically going to autolose all the while hoping their zerg opponent makes massive mistakes (sometimes takes 3-4 huge mistakes in 1 game for T to win)
This is the mentality of someone who's bad at a matchup and doesn't want to admit it. It's a feeling of helplessness that leads one to redirect one's own failures on a cosmic, beyond-one's-control source. I feel the exact same way about TvP. But asserting that zerg necessarily has to make massive mistakes in order to lose is such a defeatist notion. StarCraft II is getting to the point wherein the better player wins. Patches aren't changing which race is inherently better than the others, but rather they are eliminating the ways in which worse players can beat better players by abusing a certain mechanic that's way easier to execute than to defend.
Quote DRG ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge."
Quote MVP "Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg."
"I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist."
"I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything. "
Quote Supernova "It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. "
so MVP and supernova are defeatists now.
There are 4 options right now.
Terran figures something out and it gets patched because its too strong (happens every few months) Terrans figure something out and it doesn't get patched (hasnt happened yet) Blizzard patches the game and fixes the problem (happens occasionally) Blizzard makes bunkers build faster (hasn't happened yet)
On June 19 2012 13:59 Josealtron wrote: Even though I haven't played much lately so I don't totally know if Z is actually overpowered in this matchup now, but I have to say, I find it very hard to have sympathy for the terrans considering how horribly broken ZvT was in favor of the terrans for the first year and a half or so that the game was out
The problem is, terran players never asked to be overpowered. Since shit keeps getting nerfed from their perspective, its really demotivating.
On June 19 2012 00:50 mbr2321 wrote: Your argument seems to be that TvZ isn't as fun to play or watch because it's harder and riskier for Terran to all in. That claim in and of itself is ridiculous and counter-intuitive. All-ins are supposed to be do-or-die, extremely risky plays. And in what twisted world is it more fun to watch successful all-ins over sick, edge-of-seat macro games?
Next you talk a lot about greed. You talk about how much greed zergs can 'get away with' simply by making a few extra spines and queens. You assert that Terran can't get away without any greed because of the myriad of zerg all-ins that are so potent against Terran. You neglect to mention, however any kinds of Terran aggression that can hit a Zerg off of two bases. Look at Polt's bio/hellion aggression that killed so many zergs in Anaheim, which transitions perfectly easily into a standard marine/tank play. You assert that Terran's can't play greedily but Zergs can, but that's crap. In particular:
On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote: Some of the best terran players are playing 15cc builds quite often these days, Taeja and MKP come to mind, but these builds automatically lose to some zerg builds if they choose to coin flip, MKP lost to back to back 6pools the other day in TSL4 KR qualifier. When I was complaining about this one of my friends on skype said "well everyone knows MKP is one of the greediest mofos around." Why can zerg exploit the greediest terran mofo around but terran cant do the same to zerg anymore?
A 15 hatch isn't as greedy as a 15 cc. Not by a longshot. Opening 15 CC against a 15 hatch, all else equal, puts the Terran way ahead. A 15 CC is closer to a 3-base before pool in terms of greed. That a Terran can punish a 3-hatch before pool play is without question.
I don't understand why you think this matchup is broken. The only people hurt by these nerfs are people who play extremely gimmicky and abusively. These patches didn't hurt macro terrans in the slightest, nor did it hurt aggressive terrans who don't all-in. Just because Banshees don't automatically get 5+ drones regardless of how the Zerg prepares doesn't mean that Banshees lose all of their utility.Just because Zerg can be aggressive doesn't mean Terran can't take economic risks and get away with it.
Your argument essentially defeats itself in this:
On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote: Honestly Terran cant make a single mistake at any point in a TvZ or they're basically going to autolose all the while hoping their zerg opponent makes massive mistakes (sometimes takes 3-4 huge mistakes in 1 game for T to win)
This is the mentality of someone who's bad at a matchup and doesn't want to admit it. It's a feeling of helplessness that leads one to redirect one's own failures on a cosmic, beyond-one's-control source. I feel the exact same way about TvP. But asserting that zerg necessarily has to make massive mistakes in order to lose is such a defeatist notion. StarCraft II is getting to the point wherein the better player wins. Patches aren't changing which race is inherently better than the others, but rather they are eliminating the ways in which worse players can beat better players by abusing a certain mechanic that's way easier to execute than to defend.
Quote DRG ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge."
Quote MVP "Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg."
"I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist."
"I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything. "
Quote Supernova "It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. "
so MVP and supernova are defeatists now.
There are 4 options right now.
Terran figures something out and it gets patched because its too strong (happens every few months) Terrans figure something out and it doesn't get patched (hasnt happened yet) Blizzard patches the game and fixes the problem (happens occasionally) Blizzard makes bunkers build faster (hasn't happened yet)
Just ebay block the zerg natural and no 6 queen build. Pretty much every tournament map nowadays is 2 player, so on all of these ebay block will solve all your problems!
I play random. I think nerfing the queen range 1 unit would help. The overlord speed seems fine. On the big maps, it was very difficult to know what was going on, especially protoss timings can be scary more than anything for me. For my overall mmr, my TvZ has always been complete and utter crap and my ZvT is probably my easiest matchup. Playing ZvT was VERY frustrating to get 2 rax+bunker rushed, or cloak banshee BS, even the blue flame hellion runbys, all very very annoying, but it kind of had to have a way for the terran to get some free drone kills or you'd never be able to take a 3rd because the zerg would have such an economic advantage that they could saturate 3 bases and still have enough units to deny your 3rd and you have to hope you can kill them on 2 base before they get any good units. That was my high diamond 1v1 random experience anyway. As far as the highest level, it seems foreign terrans are getting absolutely mauled (see Summer Dreamhack). A few top korean terrans can hang with the top zergs but it's definitely very simple ZvT at lower skill levels.
I switched from Master Zerg to Terran around season 5. Zerg always gave me problems which was strange because you would think I know the race so well.
Recently, Zerg have been kicking my ass. I watch people like ForGG and MVP to see what they are doing and try to emulate it on ladder. Unfortunately, ForGG seems to open with the same cheesy build every game that only works if Zerg has taken a fast third and has no evo chambers or lair tech on the way - counting on massing hellions and popping out a few cloakshees to hold the Z down while you transition to mass bio medivac and take your own third. It works about 1/3 of the time, wins me a few easy ones, but usually just gets me steamrolled with ling roach into gg.
I thought it was just me, but it turns out a lot of terran are struggling with Zerg? Anyone know blizzard's reasoning behind the queen buff?
On June 19 2012 03:05 ticklishmusic wrote: overlord: 1 larva, 100 minerals. Scan: 240 minerals or 8 supply
idunno, overlords seem better for scouting to me. but I play protoss so what would i know?
Can't shoot down a scan before it reaches what it wants to see. You also don't have to pre-prepare a scan by putting it in position beforehand.
On June 19 2012 16:14 dGHaiL wrote: I thought it was just me, but it turns out a lot of terran are struggling with Zerg? Anyone know blizzard's reasoning behind the queen buff?
I think unfortunately it's because massing hellions and winning was way easier than defending mass hellions at the lower levels.
On June 19 2012 00:50 mbr2321 wrote: Your argument seems to be that TvZ isn't as fun to play or watch because it's harder and riskier for Terran to all in. That claim in and of itself is ridiculous and counter-intuitive. All-ins are supposed to be do-or-die, extremely risky plays. And in what twisted world is it more fun to watch successful all-ins over sick, edge-of-seat macro games?
Next you talk a lot about greed. You talk about how much greed zergs can 'get away with' simply by making a few extra spines and queens. You assert that Terran can't get away without any greed because of the myriad of zerg all-ins that are so potent against Terran. You neglect to mention, however any kinds of Terran aggression that can hit a Zerg off of two bases. Look at Polt's bio/hellion aggression that killed so many zergs in Anaheim, which transitions perfectly easily into a standard marine/tank play. You assert that Terran's can't play greedily but Zergs can, but that's crap. In particular:
On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote: Some of the best terran players are playing 15cc builds quite often these days, Taeja and MKP come to mind, but these builds automatically lose to some zerg builds if they choose to coin flip, MKP lost to back to back 6pools the other day in TSL4 KR qualifier. When I was complaining about this one of my friends on skype said "well everyone knows MKP is one of the greediest mofos around." Why can zerg exploit the greediest terran mofo around but terran cant do the same to zerg anymore?
A 15 hatch isn't as greedy as a 15 cc. Not by a longshot. Opening 15 CC against a 15 hatch, all else equal, puts the Terran way ahead. A 15 CC is closer to a 3-base before pool in terms of greed. That a Terran can punish a 3-hatch before pool play is without question.
I don't understand why you think this matchup is broken. The only people hurt by these nerfs are people who play extremely gimmicky and abusively. These patches didn't hurt macro terrans in the slightest, nor did it hurt aggressive terrans who don't all-in. Just because Banshees don't automatically get 5+ drones regardless of how the Zerg prepares doesn't mean that Banshees lose all of their utility.Just because Zerg can be aggressive doesn't mean Terran can't take economic risks and get away with it.
Your argument essentially defeats itself in this:
On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote: Honestly Terran cant make a single mistake at any point in a TvZ or they're basically going to autolose all the while hoping their zerg opponent makes massive mistakes (sometimes takes 3-4 huge mistakes in 1 game for T to win)
This is the mentality of someone who's bad at a matchup and doesn't want to admit it. It's a feeling of helplessness that leads one to redirect one's own failures on a cosmic, beyond-one's-control source. I feel the exact same way about TvP. But asserting that zerg necessarily has to make massive mistakes in order to lose is such a defeatist notion. StarCraft II is getting to the point wherein the better player wins. Patches aren't changing which race is inherently better than the others, but rather they are eliminating the ways in which worse players can beat better players by abusing a certain mechanic that's way easier to execute than to defend.
Quote DRG ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge."
Quote MVP "Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg."
"I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist."
"I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything. "
Quote Supernova "It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. "
so MVP and supernova are defeatists now.
There are 4 options right now.
Terran figures something out and it gets patched because its too strong (happens every few months) Terrans figure something out and it doesn't get patched (hasnt happened yet) Blizzard patches the game and fixes the problem (happens occasionally) Blizzard makes bunkers build faster (hasn't happened yet)
Quote DRG ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge."
Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so!
Quote MVP "Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg."
I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race).
"I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist."
There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all.
"I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything. "
So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease?
Quote Supernova "It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. "
Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken.
On June 19 2012 07:00 EienShinwa wrote: This beetlelisk guy is quite the character. Such theorycrafting is inane and simply trying to divert the attention that the actual problem that needs to be addressed. All of your questions have already been answered by progamers and higher league individuals, therefore I just don't understand your reason for continuing to grasp at straws.
Lol what questions and what answers? I believe to be the first to asking my questions so how can they already be answered? And how am I diverting the attention??? I am diving directly into specifics of the problem, am I not?
Ghosts are incredibly slow and emp is very hard to use on infestors when there are lings, banelings, and ultralisks in front of them. Even if you cloak, the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3 and then all your ghosts will be insta-killed because he'll know and fungal. To tell us that we should split ghosts and take our time sniping all of your 8-10 infestors is fucking ridiculous. Additionally, you're just relying on luck that he will keep all his infestors clumped together if you think you'll get them all the first round. Why must we rely on luck? All this proves is that Terran must play exponentially better than the Zerg, who is a moving with his army and keeping all his infestors together to mass fungal the terran's army.
If the infestors are clumped together, it only takes 1 or 2 EMP to get rid of all their energy. A cloaked ghost can do that easily. If the infestors are split apart, why is it unfair to split apart your ghosts as well? He took time to split apart his infestors, it's only fair you be required to split apart your ghosts so they don't get mass fungal'd.
On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote:
Why are we required to outplay Zerg by trying to emp all your infestors with 1-2 ghosts at a time, while keeping up with macro cycles, not getting supply blocked, making more buildings, expanding, etc? Granted, you're also doing the same, but imagine trying to use 1-2 burrowed infestors at a time to get rid of tank siege line positions. Do you understand why it's so illogical?
Why are you bitching about having to EMP the infestors when Zerg also has to fungal the Terran army? Ghosts and Infestors are both required spellcasters in modern day TvZ. You're the one being illogical here.
On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote:
Ravens are in a similar situation, when that even if they launch heat seeker missiles into groups of infestors and zerglings, because of the insanely slow speed of the HSM and of the raven, you'll be incredibly lucky to hit more than 1 if not 1. Then they'll just get fungaled and killed. Unless you ask we should do the same thing you suggested with the ghost. I already explained that above.The thing that is most important to note is that both of these spell casters for terran only have projectile spells that are slower than the other races' spells and are not cost efficient due to the fact that the apm required to skillfully and efficiently use them is just insane.
Your post makes it obvious you've never tried to use HSM and ravens properly. Sure, ONE HSM is slow and depends on luck to get a good splash damage off, but when people use Ravens in TvZ, they use lots of them. Many Ravens = Many HSM. Many HSM = Much more chance of getting devastating splash damage off of Z army.
You're like a Zerg player complaining about how hard it is to get a good baneling splash off of MMM when you only make 1-3 banelings. If you make that little, of course it's gonna be difficult to get a good splash off.
On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote:
It's also completely bullshit that people are commenting that terran should rely on ghosts and ravens more, but that's fucking stupid. Why must we rely entirely on these two spellcasters to win us the game?Terran is fundamentally different from Zerg and Protoss in that we can't make units instantaneously. Getting ravens and ghosts early for us doesn't help us, it fucking hurts us. We need those extra marines, marauders, medivacs, and vikings to fucking attack early like the retarded ass game designers at Blizzard want. Take a moment to understand this sentence: The longer the game goes on, the fucking harder it is for us to win.
Your post is so ignorant and biased that it shows how shallow your thinking level is. So you're peeved that T has to rely on ghosts and raven more but do you not see how Zerg has to rely on infestor? Have you ever faced Z who didn't use infestors? Isn't it much less threatening to fight him that way? Same point here, T without raven and ghosts is much less threatening to Zerg. Yes, both Raven and Ghosts are gas-heavy, but the blunt of Terran army is Marines which is purely minerals. Zerg has to spend gas on Broodlords (huge hunk of gas), Banelings, Mutas/Corruptor (If T goes raven which T should). Okay, we can cancel out Mutas/Corruptor if you count in Medivacs. But Broodlord + Baneling gas over Marines. See what you're bitching about makes no sense?
Quote DRG ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge."
Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so!
Quote MVP "Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg."
I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race).
"I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist."
There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all.
"I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything. "
So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease?
Quote Supernova "It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. "
Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken.
why do you think your opinion about these great players matters at all , keep it to yourself buddy. i know you are zerg and you think that if blizzard sees those opinions your race will get hard again and yes it might be true but you don't need to cry when zerg is imbalanced
On June 19 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote: On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote: + Show Spoiler +
Quote DRG ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge."
Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so!
Quote MVP "Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg."
I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race).
"I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist."
There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all.
"I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything. "
So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease?
Quote Supernova "It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. "
Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken.
Reading your attempt to construe those comments in a way that they do not say exactly what they say felt like reading the comments of a drug user in denial. Warped reality at its finest.
I'm only around gold/plat level so I have a lot of problems in my game. I'll occasionally forget to macro when I go in for an engagement and such so when I usually lose my army, I don't have as many units at home, etc... but TvZ is just brutal. Early game, it's fine but once infestors are out, I rarely win the game unless my opponent makes a mistake like once I had one accidently queue commands with his burrowed infestors and only had one infested marine pop so I scanned and took out like 20 of them lol. I still also need to incorporate more ghosts into my game to try and snipe or emp but that's once my macro is up to par.
On June 19 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote: On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote: + Show Spoiler +
Quote DRG ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge."
Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so!
Quote MVP "Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg."
I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race).
"I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist."
There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all.
"I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything. "
So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease?
Quote Supernova "It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. "
Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken.
Reading your attempt to construe those comments in a way that they do not say exactly what they say felt like reading the comments of a drug user in denial. Warped reality at its finest.
Or what I said actually made perfect sense, if not exactly the most professional tone... I said nothing that isn't true or accurate.
If you complain about the OL buff, you're crazy. If you defend the Queen buff, you're crazy. If you enjoy reading terran flavored balance whine for a change, you're just like me.
If the infestors are clumped together, it only takes 1 or 2 EMP to get rid of all their energy. A cloaked ghost can do that easily. If the infestors are split apart, why is it unfair to split apart your ghosts as well? He took time to split apart his infestors, it's only fair you be required to split apart your ghosts so they don't get mass fungal'd.
EMP had it's radius nerfed. Infestors can get what, 200 energy? Infestors are pretty big too. That's way more than 1-2 EMP's. Zerg can counter ghosts cloaking with 1-2 overseers and keeping their Infestors near the rear. Also, it's not fair to compare splitting ghosts and infestors. Terran needs to micro every unit, otherwise he loses.
Zerg: -1A -Keep infestors in back -FUNGAL -Infested Terran -???
That's too much Terran micro, even for 300APM pro's.
On June 19 2012 17:02 GhostOwl wrote: Why are you bitching about having to EMP the infestors when Zerg also has to fungal the Terran army? Ghosts and Infestors are both required spellcasters in modern day TvZ. You're the one being illogical here.
Infestors are great in every matchup and against pretty much any unit. Ghosts are an anti-spellcaster. Snipe is agreed to be trash in TvZ. Ghosts are trash as a fighting unit. EMP is only good vs infestors. I personally love the infestor and think it's the best spellcaster in the game. So insanely powerful and easy to use.
On June 19 2012 17:02 GhostOwl wrote: Your post makes it obvious you've never tried to use HSM and ravens properly. Sure, ONE HSM is slow and depends on luck to get a good splash damage off, but when people use Ravens in TvZ, they use lots of them. Many Ravens = Many HSM. Many HSM = Much more chance of getting devastating splash damage off of Z army.
You're like a Zerg player complaining about how hard it is to get a good baneling splash off of MMM when you only make 1-3 banelings. If you make that little, of course it's gonna be difficult to get a good splash off.
Your post is so ignorant and biased that it shows how shallow your thinking level is. So you're peeved that T has to rely on ghosts and raven more but do you not see how Zerg has to rely on infestor? Have you ever faced Z who didn't use infestors? Isn't it much less threatening to fight him that way? Same point here, T without raven and ghosts is much less threatening to Zerg. Yes, both Raven and Ghosts are gas-heavy, but the blunt of Terran army is Marines which is purely minerals. Zerg has to spend gas on Broodlords (huge hunk of gas), Banelings, Mutas/Corruptor (If T goes raven which T should). Okay, we can cancel out Mutas/Corruptor if you count in Medivacs. But Broodlord + Baneling gas over Marines. See what you're bitching about makes no sense?
Ravens might be good. They are definitely a late-game unit though. They are a supply efficient unit but not a resource efficient one until all the upgrades are researched and at full energy. Getting them before lategame means Terran has a shitload of useless flying units and a very weak ground army.
On top of that, T needs multiple starports with techlabs.
I think a lot of it stems from the initial "problem" that zergs had a very hard time busting Ts and Ps in defensive position together with the larva mechanic meaning you make either workers or units. As such, zergs couldnt really make units with the idea that "well, if I cant use them right now to defend or attack (cant defend because no attack incoming, cant attack because opponent has too strong of a defensive position), I can at least use them later". That didnt really work for zergs the way it does for P/T, because they keep building units continously. If a P/T plays safe and makes lots of units, but no attacks come, that often means a possibility to turn on the pressure back to the opponent with those units. Meaning making units isnt (relatively, of course, obviously overdefending a not coming attack can be bad for all races) as much of a loss for them.
So that led to a situation where the only (?) way to play zerg was to play the macro style while making as few units as possible. And with that style largely being the main objective of zergs for the last year or more, Blizz kinda had to balance around the idea that this is how zerg "is meant" to be played.
Had the situation been that all races had equal possibilities to bust opponents early/mid game, I think this situation might not have happened in the first place. Then zergs could make units more freely. Because every unit made wouldnt be a lost worker, it would be a possibility to cause damage. Thats not the case right now. Right now every unit is a lost worker until the fight happen.
Maybe Im overanalyzing things, but thats how I've felt about it at least.
i honestly believe, it shouldn't matter what is better than what. starcraft is apart of strategy and tactic development. everything cannot stay the same, lets just say it does it for years, it will be boring. CHANGES have to occur to create entertainment, balanced and unbalanced.
players will come up with new strats and use of units in many complex ways. it's okay, its a thinking game. you love strategy, be apart of it and love it.
On June 19 2012 07:00 EienShinwa wrote: This beetlelisk guy is quite the character. Such theorycrafting is inane and simply trying to divert the attention that the actual problem that needs to be addressed. All of your questions have already been answered by progamers and higher league individuals, therefore I just don't understand your reason for continuing to grasp at straws.
Lol what questions and what answers? I believe to be the first to asking my questions so how can they already be answered? And how am I diverting the attention??? I am diving directly into specifics of the problem, am I not?
Ghosts are incredibly slow and emp is very hard to use on infestors when there are lings, banelings, and ultralisks in front of them. Even if you cloak, the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3 and then all your ghosts will be insta-killed because he'll know and fungal. To tell us that we should split ghosts and take our time sniping all of your 8-10 infestors is fucking ridiculous. Additionally, you're just relying on luck that he will keep all his infestors clumped together if you think you'll get them all the first round. Why must we rely on luck? All this proves is that Terran must play exponentially better than the Zerg, who is a moving with his army and keeping all his infestors together to mass fungal the terran's army.
If the infestors are clumped together, it only takes 1 or 2 EMP to get rid of all their energy. A cloaked ghost can do that easily. If the infestors are split apart, why is it unfair to split apart your ghosts as well? He took time to split apart his infestors, it's only fair you be required to split apart your ghosts so they don't get mass fungal'd. + Show Spoiler +
On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote:
Why are we required to outplay Zerg by trying to emp all your infestors with 1-2 ghosts at a time, while keeping up with macro cycles, not getting supply blocked, making more buildings, expanding, etc? Granted, you're also doing the same, but imagine trying to use 1-2 burrowed infestors at a time to get rid of tank siege line positions. Do you understand why it's so illogical?
Why are you bitching about having to EMP the infestors when Zerg also has to fungal the Terran army? Ghosts and Infestors are both required spellcasters in modern day TvZ. You're the one being illogical here.
On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote:
Ravens are in a similar situation, when that even if they launch heat seeker missiles into groups of infestors and zerglings, because of the insanely slow speed of the HSM and of the raven, you'll be incredibly lucky to hit more than 1 if not 1. Then they'll just get fungaled and killed. Unless you ask we should do the same thing you suggested with the ghost. I already explained that above.The thing that is most important to note is that both of these spell casters for terran only have projectile spells that are slower than the other races' spells and are not cost efficient due to the fact that the apm required to skillfully and efficiently use them is just insane.
Your post makes it obvious you've never tried to use HSM and ravens properly. Sure, ONE HSM is slow and depends on luck to get a good splash damage off, but when people use Ravens in TvZ, they use lots of them. Many Ravens = Many HSM. Many HSM = Much more chance of getting devastating splash damage off of Z army.
You're like a Zerg player complaining about how hard it is to get a good baneling splash off of MMM when you only make 1-3 banelings. If you make that little, of course it's gonna be difficult to get a good splash off.
On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote:
It's also completely bullshit that people are commenting that terran should rely on ghosts and ravens more, but that's fucking stupid. Why must we rely entirely on these two spellcasters to win us the game?Terran is fundamentally different from Zerg and Protoss in that we can't make units instantaneously. Getting ravens and ghosts early for us doesn't help us, it fucking hurts us. We need those extra marines, marauders, medivacs, and vikings to fucking attack early like the retarded ass game designers at Blizzard want. Take a moment to understand this sentence: The longer the game goes on, the fucking harder it is for us to win.
Your post is so ignorant and biased that it shows how shallow your thinking level is. So you're peeved that T has to rely on ghosts and raven more but do you not see how Zerg has to rely on infestor? Have you ever faced Z who didn't use infestors? Isn't it much less threatening to fight him that way? Same point here, T without raven and ghosts is much less threatening to Zerg. Yes, both Raven and Ghosts are gas-heavy, but the blunt of Terran army is Marines which is purely minerals. Zerg has to spend gas on Broodlords (huge hunk of gas), Banelings, Mutas/Corruptor (If T goes raven which T should). Okay, we can cancel out Mutas/Corruptor if you count in Medivacs. But Broodlord + Baneling gas over Marines. See what you're bitching about makes no sense?
Look I play random on my second account and this is just bullshit. You can't EMP 6-10 infestors with one ghost.
MKP vs Symbol from GSL Ro32... I dont know much about SC2 but its clearly a little lop sided when you have the 2nd winningest player in SC2 get completely owned in a TvZ when it looks like he's not even able to do anything in the game, kills the lair and apparently that doesn't do anything at all
On June 19 2012 07:00 EienShinwa wrote: This beetlelisk guy is quite the character. Such theorycrafting is inane and simply trying to divert the attention that the actual problem that needs to be addressed. All of your questions have already been answered by progamers and higher league individuals, therefore I just don't understand your reason for continuing to grasp at straws.
Lol what questions and what answers? I believe to be the first to asking my questions so how can they already be answered? And how am I diverting the attention??? I am diving directly into specifics of the problem, am I not?
Ghosts are incredibly slow and emp is very hard to use on infestors when there are lings, banelings, and ultralisks in front of them. Even if you cloak, the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3 and then all your ghosts will be insta-killed because he'll know and fungal. To tell us that we should split ghosts and take our time sniping all of your 8-10 infestors is fucking ridiculous. Additionally, you're just relying on luck that he will keep all his infestors clumped together if you think you'll get them all the first round. Why must we rely on luck? All this proves is that Terran must play exponentially better than the Zerg, who is a moving with his army and keeping all his infestors together to mass fungal the terran's army.
If the infestors are clumped together, it only takes 1 or 2 EMP to get rid of all their energy. A cloaked ghost can do that easily. If the infestors are split apart, why is it unfair to split apart your ghosts as well? He took time to split apart his infestors, it's only fair you be required to split apart your ghosts so they don't get mass fungal'd. + Show Spoiler +
On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote:
Why are we required to outplay Zerg by trying to emp all your infestors with 1-2 ghosts at a time, while keeping up with macro cycles, not getting supply blocked, making more buildings, expanding, etc? Granted, you're also doing the same, but imagine trying to use 1-2 burrowed infestors at a time to get rid of tank siege line positions. Do you understand why it's so illogical?
Why are you bitching about having to EMP the infestors when Zerg also has to fungal the Terran army? Ghosts and Infestors are both required spellcasters in modern day TvZ. You're the one being illogical here.
On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote:
Ravens are in a similar situation, when that even if they launch heat seeker missiles into groups of infestors and zerglings, because of the insanely slow speed of the HSM and of the raven, you'll be incredibly lucky to hit more than 1 if not 1. Then they'll just get fungaled and killed. Unless you ask we should do the same thing you suggested with the ghost. I already explained that above.The thing that is most important to note is that both of these spell casters for terran only have projectile spells that are slower than the other races' spells and are not cost efficient due to the fact that the apm required to skillfully and efficiently use them is just insane.
Your post makes it obvious you've never tried to use HSM and ravens properly. Sure, ONE HSM is slow and depends on luck to get a good splash damage off, but when people use Ravens in TvZ, they use lots of them. Many Ravens = Many HSM. Many HSM = Much more chance of getting devastating splash damage off of Z army.
You're like a Zerg player complaining about how hard it is to get a good baneling splash off of MMM when you only make 1-3 banelings. If you make that little, of course it's gonna be difficult to get a good splash off.
On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote:
It's also completely bullshit that people are commenting that terran should rely on ghosts and ravens more, but that's fucking stupid. Why must we rely entirely on these two spellcasters to win us the game?Terran is fundamentally different from Zerg and Protoss in that we can't make units instantaneously. Getting ravens and ghosts early for us doesn't help us, it fucking hurts us. We need those extra marines, marauders, medivacs, and vikings to fucking attack early like the retarded ass game designers at Blizzard want. Take a moment to understand this sentence: The longer the game goes on, the fucking harder it is for us to win.
Your post is so ignorant and biased that it shows how shallow your thinking level is. So you're peeved that T has to rely on ghosts and raven more but do you not see how Zerg has to rely on infestor? Have you ever faced Z who didn't use infestors? Isn't it much less threatening to fight him that way? Same point here, T without raven and ghosts is much less threatening to Zerg. Yes, both Raven and Ghosts are gas-heavy, but the blunt of Terran army is Marines which is purely minerals. Zerg has to spend gas on Broodlords (huge hunk of gas), Banelings, Mutas/Corruptor (If T goes raven which T should). Okay, we can cancel out Mutas/Corruptor if you count in Medivacs. But Broodlord + Baneling gas over Marines. See what you're bitching about makes no sense?
Look I play random on my second account and this is just bullshit. You can't EMP 6-10 infestors with one ghost.
Not to mention the fact that when you do emp them, they instantly start running/spreading.
On June 18 2012 20:12 yeint wrote: I honestly think fungal is far, far too strong. I don't for a minute think they will or even should make such a drastic change at this point, but definitely in HotS.
I don't know what Blizzard is thinking with the ability. It's far too high damage to also be a full duration root. Either make it a front loaded, undodgeable storm, or a somewhat longer duration no-damage root (perhaps lower energy cost for this). It should be an ability that prevents micro, not the highest DPS source in a lategame Zerg army.
Casters in general should be situational, not a swiss army knife unit that's pivotal from minute 10 to minute 60.
i couldnt agree more with a statement. fungal is the most boring, silly to watch and overpowered spell in this game. it takes absolutely no effort to aim because the zerg player has just no influence on whether it will be a "good" or a "bad" fungal, the only factor is, "is the terran player watching his army?". for the same reason i actually dont like to go infestors when i sometimes offrace .. they are slow disgusting maggots and theres just no way you can determine to use them decently. it is in my humble opinion just random. this is by the way disregarding the fact that watching a whole army melt in 3 fungals is also the most boring thing an observer could imagine (at least if the observer is me). you can at least "dodge" storms.
infestors are also the main reason why zvt is the most shitty matchup to play right now. as this seems the proper place for terran players in this forum to complain and rage i just had to add my little rant. dont consider it useful or thought over. thank you.
edit: ah and besides it feels so incredibly funny to kill 30 drones early game and still be behind in lategame - or just lose to a random combination of mass t1 amove into your base because you (DARE YOU) built a third cc before the 15 minute mark.
On June 19 2012 07:00 EienShinwa wrote: This beetlelisk guy is quite the character. Such theorycrafting is inane and simply trying to divert the attention that the actual problem that needs to be addressed. All of your questions have already been answered by progamers and higher league individuals, therefore I just don't understand your reason for continuing to grasp at straws.
Lol what questions and what answers? I believe to be the first to asking my questions so how can they already be answered? And how am I diverting the attention??? I am diving directly into specifics of the problem, am I not?
Ghosts are incredibly slow and emp is very hard to use on infestors when there are lings, banelings, and ultralisks in front of them. Even if you cloak, the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3 and then all your ghosts will be insta-killed because he'll know and fungal. To tell us that we should split ghosts and take our time sniping all of your 8-10 infestors is fucking ridiculous. Additionally, you're just relying on luck that he will keep all his infestors clumped together if you think you'll get them all the first round. Why must we rely on luck? All this proves is that Terran must play exponentially better than the Zerg, who is a moving with his army and keeping all his infestors together to mass fungal the terran's army.
If the infestors are clumped together, it only takes 1 or 2 EMP to get rid of all their energy. A cloaked ghost can do that easily. If the infestors are split apart, why is it unfair to split apart your ghosts as well? He took time to split apart his infestors, it's only fair you be required to split apart your ghosts so they don't get mass fungal'd. + Show Spoiler +
On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote:
Why are we required to outplay Zerg by trying to emp all your infestors with 1-2 ghosts at a time, while keeping up with macro cycles, not getting supply blocked, making more buildings, expanding, etc? Granted, you're also doing the same, but imagine trying to use 1-2 burrowed infestors at a time to get rid of tank siege line positions. Do you understand why it's so illogical?
Why are you bitching about having to EMP the infestors when Zerg also has to fungal the Terran army? Ghosts and Infestors are both required spellcasters in modern day TvZ. You're the one being illogical here.
On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote:
Ravens are in a similar situation, when that even if they launch heat seeker missiles into groups of infestors and zerglings, because of the insanely slow speed of the HSM and of the raven, you'll be incredibly lucky to hit more than 1 if not 1. Then they'll just get fungaled and killed. Unless you ask we should do the same thing you suggested with the ghost. I already explained that above.The thing that is most important to note is that both of these spell casters for terran only have projectile spells that are slower than the other races' spells and are not cost efficient due to the fact that the apm required to skillfully and efficiently use them is just insane.
Your post makes it obvious you've never tried to use HSM and ravens properly. Sure, ONE HSM is slow and depends on luck to get a good splash damage off, but when people use Ravens in TvZ, they use lots of them. Many Ravens = Many HSM. Many HSM = Much more chance of getting devastating splash damage off of Z army.
You're like a Zerg player complaining about how hard it is to get a good baneling splash off of MMM when you only make 1-3 banelings. If you make that little, of course it's gonna be difficult to get a good splash off.
On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote:
It's also completely bullshit that people are commenting that terran should rely on ghosts and ravens more, but that's fucking stupid. Why must we rely entirely on these two spellcasters to win us the game?Terran is fundamentally different from Zerg and Protoss in that we can't make units instantaneously. Getting ravens and ghosts early for us doesn't help us, it fucking hurts us. We need those extra marines, marauders, medivacs, and vikings to fucking attack early like the retarded ass game designers at Blizzard want. Take a moment to understand this sentence: The longer the game goes on, the fucking harder it is for us to win.
Your post is so ignorant and biased that it shows how shallow your thinking level is. So you're peeved that T has to rely on ghosts and raven more but do you not see how Zerg has to rely on infestor? Have you ever faced Z who didn't use infestors? Isn't it much less threatening to fight him that way? Same point here, T without raven and ghosts is much less threatening to Zerg. Yes, both Raven and Ghosts are gas-heavy, but the blunt of Terran army is Marines which is purely minerals. Zerg has to spend gas on Broodlords (huge hunk of gas), Banelings, Mutas/Corruptor (If T goes raven which T should). Okay, we can cancel out Mutas/Corruptor if you count in Medivacs. But Broodlord + Baneling gas over Marines. See what you're bitching about makes no sense?
Look I play random on my second account and this is just bullshit. You can't EMP 6-10 infestors with one ghost.
Not to mention the fact that when you do emp them, they instantly start running/spreading.
Yeah pretty much.
{edited out wrote it wrong don't give a fuck about expressing the viewpoint}
Honestly, who's surprised? Blizzard's balance philosophy since WoW has been "taking turns" (So the OP and UP stuff gets swapped around so that everyone can experience overpoweredness at some point). I think that's how it's been in SC2 thus far, as well.
It's in my opinion clear that Terran is in a tough spot right now. Ravens, are they the solution? I really don't think so. Perhaps something like Viking harrass? Terran has numerous options, there should be something in there..
What would people think about changing Fungal into an AoE ability like storm, that dealt damage and slowed units by 50%? Maybe make it have a projectile as well instead of instant cast. Make it damage for more than currently, but it'd change so that it can be run out of and accidentally run into.
This would greatly improve the game in my opinion, at least worth a try. You could use it to zone areas, control escapes etc. instead of just clicking the center of the army every single time. Could also circle the army with it and allow banes to hit etc.
On June 19 2012 22:33 Shikyo wrote: Honestly, who's surprised? Blizzard's balance philosophy since WoW has been "taking turns" (So the OP and UP stuff gets swapped around so that everyone can experience overpoweredness at some point). I think that's how it's been in SC2 thus far, as well.
It's in my opinion clear that Terran is in a tough spot right now. Ravens, are they the solution? I really don't think so. Perhaps something like Viking harrass? Terran has numerous options, there should be something in there..
Last time I saw viking harrass must be back in beta. Terran has numerous options? Like viking harrass? I don't even...
I think the problem is that Terrans don't really have a catch-all solution to the ways Zerg can tech. Unlike Protoss, who have to wait traditionally switching from high templar to colossi, (I believe TvP is pretty balanced even with some of the recent complaints that Protoss is favored), Zerg can tech switch instantly by spamming corruptors -> brood lords or spamming ultralisks. This switch used to be okay for the Terran to deal with because Zergs couldn't play too greedily early on or else they'd die/equalize to early pressure. Now that the queen buff has been introduced, Zerg can literally hold off most pressures with 6 queens and 4 lings, allowing them to safely get to the late-game with zero problems to their production.
And you might say "Oh, well it's fair that Terran doesn't have one solution to all Zerg attacks," but when you factor in the way production cycles work, (in which Terran has to wait after they 200/200 and trade armies, and Zerg insta-remaxes with spare larva), Terran really does need some way to always be cost efficient against Zerg in order for the late game to be fair.
The problem I see is that currently all the suggestions of "make ravens pl0x" or "make ghosts pl0x," are simply pushing the issue aside too easily. People have tried these strategies before, (and they failed, hence why people don't try these strategies any more unless they're at a much higher skill level than their opponent), and while Ravens work great against un-microed corruptors/broodlords/infestors, they do nothing against ultralisks, (mind you that's still unmicroed; with micro even ravens won't save you from broodlords). Ghosts work the same way: you might be able to be cost-efficient against infestors, but lings and ultralisks will kill you. Vikings are obviously useful against corruptors and broodlords, but are easily picked apart by infestors and are completely useless against utralisks. Marines typically fulfill the role of catch-all unit, but they instantly melt to fungals/banelings, (and later they just die to cracklings under fungals unless you have 12+ medivacs, in which case you're not going to have enough of your other tech to survive anything else. They're also pretty worthless against ultralisks if the Zerg is at all competent). Plus, you need a heavy tank/marauder count against the ultralisks, and that's simply too much production, (not even gas, since Zerg is typically more gas heavy; though anyone going raven/ghost/marauder/marine/tank/viking is out of their minds) to be reasonable for the Terran to produce.
tl;dr, let's put it this way: when Zerg gets their instant re-max of 100-120-ish supply off of five hatcheries, that's the equivalent of fifty-sixty barracks reproducing their units. While I don't think this mechanic is necessarily unfair, Terran needs to have an answer to the immediate tech-switch that Zerg can do. The infamous game between Nestea/Mvp at Blizzard Cup, in which Mvp created his ridiculous ghost/tank defense against everything would be the extreme version of what I'm saying. Terrans need a lite-version of that in order at least stay alive vs. Zerg's double/triple tech-switch.
That or you can simply give queens maybe 4 range instead of 5, so they don't insta-halt any and all pressure.
On June 20 2012 00:19 Johnnyboy13 wrote: I thought balance discussion wasnt allowed on teamliquid????? Can someone please close this trash of a thread.
This is a blog started by a GM player, if you don't like the discussion don't open the blog. Now kindly GTFO.
The Viking harass thing caught my eye, until i realized 6 queens would just murder the fuck out of them in air or landed. Thought maybe a split Viking/Hellion in multiple locations could function like drop play, but then why not just drop marines?
Are Marauders the answer? Like 4 tech lab'd Rax Marauders with Medivacs and reactor Hellions? Could be a mean 10minute push, but GL against mutas.
This beetlelisk guy is quite the character. Such theorycrafting is inane and simply trying to divert the attention that the actual problem that needs to be addressed. All of your questions have already been answered by progamers and higher league individuals, therefore I just don't understand your reason for continuing to grasp at straws.
Lol what questions and what answers? I believe to be the first to asking my questions so how can they already be answered? And how am I diverting the attention??? I am diving directly into specifics of the problem, am I not?
Most of your questions like getting ghosts to emp infestors and potential to use ravens in the TvZ mu are nonsensical. It's already been proven that it's gimmicky, not standard, and most importantly not very feasible to effectively use those units to their supposed maximum potential when they can be abused so easily.
I don't see using ghosts to be proven as impossible or "not feasible" in this thread, even though I asked for VODs or replays. I don't know how using Ravens against lings, banes and mutas is nonsensical as I don't believe they were ever used to do that, instead they were always used as anti brood lord weapon. We simply don't have the data to state that.
Ghosts are incredibly slow and emp is very hard to use on infestors when there are lings, banelings, and ultralisks in front of them. Even if you cloak, the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3 and then all your ghosts will be insta-killed because he'll know and fungal.
That's why I keep on saying to spread out ghosts. Also give me an example of "the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3" in the form of a VOD or a replay. And also by the time you have ghosts you sure do have medivacs so there is anything needed to bypass zerg fighting units and reach the infestors with EMPs, either by ground or air, in medivacs.
Additionally, you're just relying on luck that he will keep all his infestors clumped together if you think you'll get them all the first round. Why must we rely on luck?
What luck are you talking about? It's only natural that they are clumped because units in SC2 naturally get clumped when being moved around. And Infestors are being clumped because good players keep them on a different hot key. Since so many people in this thread are completely missing the anti-caster role of the ghost I guess zergs don't really feel the need to spread out their infestors when there is not a single ghost on the field in most of their games, so they get used to it and never spread their Infestors.
[the Zerg] who is a moving with his army and keeping all his infestors together to mass fungal the terran's army. Why are we required to outplay Zerg by trying to emp all your infestors with 1-2 ghosts at a time, while keeping up with macro cycles, not getting supply blocked, making more buildings, expanding, etc?
This is ridiculous, it's like saying zerg doesn't have to do the same or even more in terms of expanding.
Granted, you're also doing the same, but imagine trying to use 1-2 burrowed infestors at a time to get rid of tank siege line positions. Do you understand why it's so illogical? Ravens are in a similar situation, when that even if they launch heat seeker missiles into groups of infestors and zerglings, because of the insanely slow speed of the HSM and of the raven, you'll be incredibly lucky to hit more than 1 if not 1.
That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away.
Then they'll just get fungaled and killed. Unless you ask we should do the same thing you suggested with the ghost. I already explained that above.The thing that is most important to note is that both of these spell casters for terran only have projectile spells that are slower than the other races' spells and are not cost efficient due to the fact that the apm required to skillfully and efficiently use them is just insane.
Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane.
It's also completely bullshit that people are commenting that terran should rely on ghosts and ravens more, but that's fucking stupid. Why must we rely entirely on these two spellcasters to win us the game?
I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier.
Terran is fundamentally different from Zerg and Protoss in that we can't make units instantaneously.
Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too.
Getting ravens and ghosts early for us doesn't help us, it fucking hurts us. We need those extra marines, marauders, medivacs, and vikings to fucking attack early like the retarded ass game designers at Blizzard want.
I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP.
Take a moment to understand this sentence: The longer the game goes on, the fucking harder it is for us to win.
There is nothing to understand, there is a lot to prove to be correct.
Why would I build such an expensive, slow unit that I have to upgrade the HSM and wait till it has 125 energy just to shot a HSM missle at the fastest unit in the game (lings) and banelings and mutas? There is no way that the HSM will hit lings, mutas, or bane before they die. There is also a delay on the animation before it starts accelerating and during this animation, the raven is unable to move and this is usually when they die. Dont forget that by firing your HSM close, it will also have the potetntial to kill the raven and without a high raven count....raven are not that good. It to much of a risk....it like saying, you should take your infestor and go infront of a marine bio army and then fungal them so they cant run away from you (a bit over exaggerated though)
The AOE on fungal is like 4-5 EMP. It is also instant.....pretty damn hard to split your ghost and from what i remember, fungal has a bigger range then emp too.
Well..Zerg only has the queen as their AA unit for up to 10 minutes...lol spores. Don't get me started. So the queen can deflect banshees, hellions, and tiny groups of marines. Zerg can only build one unit for one purpose, Terran can still make 3 for every one..
On June 20 2012 01:51 DarKcS wrote: Well..Zerg only has the queen as their AA unit for up to 10 minutes...lol spores. Don't get me started. So the queen can deflect banshees, hellions, and tiny groups of marines. Zerg can only build one unit for one purpose, Terran can still make 3 for every one..
I don't even understand what you're trying to say... I'll take 1 unit as a response to 3 over 3 different options ALL day...
No matter which style of Terran you play, you have 1 solution to all of those styles [Queens]. Where is the benefit in being able to make 3 different units when 1 of your opponents units handles them easily.
I actually would like to see either more options explored or more options made viable for Terran, though I do think the Overlord speed and Queen buffs were correct decisions. I'm not really sure what I could add to this thread that hasn't been covered already.
The one thing I have been considering I'm not nearly qualified enough to know if it'd be a good idea so I'll share it and maybe a map maker can test it if they think it's a good idea or something. So yeah, I was wondering what it would be like to have some mineral and gas patches on the thirds entombed similar to the new Protoss Oracle ability. Like 2-3 mineral patches available (or none if that turns out better) until you destroy the entombs which health tweaked according to balance requirements. It's kinda like a compromise on rocks where you can place the Hatch and you can begin mining, you can begin additional larva generation and you'll have creep to begin placing Spores and micro'ing Queens so you're not instantly shut down by cloaked units or flyers. Also means Lings can produce a difference faster and over time but maybe still take the ame time overall for optimal mining, rather than nibbling for an hour to even start taking the third.
I'm a Gold league Zerg so I tend to try to avoid giving any opinions on balance as I'm not good enough at even the basics of the game to have ever won or lost due to balance but I'd still be interested to see what impact that suggestion would have. I think it'd maybe provide a little delay that could balance things out but if anyone better than I wants to tell me I'm wrong then fair enough.
On June 20 2012 02:36 Iyerbeth wrote: I actually would like to see either more options explored or more options made viable for Terran, though I do think the Overlord speed and Queen buffs were correct decisions. I'm not really sure what I could add to this thread that hasn't been covered already.
The one thing I have been considering I'm not nearly qualified enough to know if it'd be a good idea so I'll share it and maybe a map maker can test it if they think it's a good idea or something. So yeah, I was wondering what it would be like to have some mineral and gas patches on the thirds entombed similar to the new Protoss Oracle ability. Like 2-3 mineral patches available (or none if that turns out better) until you destroy the entombs which health tweaked according to balance requirements. It's kinda like a compromise on rocks where you can place the Hatch and you can begin mining, you can begin additional larva generation and you'll have creep to begin placing Spores and micro'ing Queens so you're not instantly shut down by cloaked units or flyers. Also means Lings can produce a difference faster and over time but maybe still take the ame time overall for optimal mining, rather than nibbling for an hour to even start taking the third.
I'm a Gold league Zerg so I tend to try to avoid giving any opinions on balance as I'm not good enough at even the basics of the game to have ever won or lost due to balance but I'd still be interested to see what impact that suggestion would have. I think it'd maybe provide a little delay that could balance things out but if anyone better than I wants to tell me I'm wrong then fair enough.
That wouldn't really solve much, the Terran would face the same problems the zerg would. Mining wise, at least.
Quote DRG ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge."
Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so!
Quote MVP "Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg."
I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race).
"I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist."
There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all.
"I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything. "
So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease?
Quote Supernova "It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. "
Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken.
Trying to downtalk top notch Korean pros = big fail
On June 20 2012 02:36 Iyerbeth wrote: I actually would like to see either more options explored or more options made viable for Terran, though I do think the Overlord speed and Queen buffs were correct decisions. I'm not really sure what I could add to this thread that hasn't been covered already.
The one thing I have been considering I'm not nearly qualified enough to know if it'd be a good idea so I'll share it and maybe a map maker can test it if they think it's a good idea or something. So yeah, I was wondering what it would be like to have some mineral and gas patches on the thirds entombed similar to the new Protoss Oracle ability. Like 2-3 mineral patches available (or none if that turns out better) until you destroy the entombs which health tweaked according to balance requirements. It's kinda like a compromise on rocks where you can place the Hatch and you can begin mining, you can begin additional larva generation and you'll have creep to begin placing Spores and micro'ing Queens so you're not instantly shut down by cloaked units or flyers. Also means Lings can produce a difference faster and over time but maybe still take the ame time overall for optimal mining, rather than nibbling for an hour to even start taking the third.
I'm a Gold league Zerg so I tend to try to avoid giving any opinions on balance as I'm not good enough at even the basics of the game to have ever won or lost due to balance but I'd still be interested to see what impact that suggestion would have. I think it'd maybe provide a little delay that could balance things out but if anyone better than I wants to tell me I'm wrong then fair enough.
That wouldn't really solve much, the Terran would face the same problems the zerg would. Mining wise, at least.
Well Zerg typically hate rocks since it forces attack units. Terran have a much easier time clearing rocks. It's a very interesting idea. Thing like gas less/1gas 3rds haven't really been explored in sc2 either.
Now that the Queen has a range of 5, I want to know if the PTR has ever tried the 'Reaper speed' without Factory required. It would slightly help the Terran with a heavy bio composition early game, transitioning into Seige Tank||Raven after the 3rd base is saturated. Does anyone recall if the D-8 charge could remove a Creep Tumor?
I was recently watching a game where a Terran expanded then did a 2 Medivac, 2 SCV, 14 Marine, 8 Hellion push. It did fairly well against 4 Queen, but I know 6 Queen would squash it.
The few TvZ I have won is when my opponent decides to do Stephano~like Roach, Zergling aggression. If I hold with just a bio composition, I can push and punish my opponent.
On June 20 2012 00:19 Johnnyboy13 wrote: I thought balance discussion wasnt allowed on teamliquid????? Can someone please close this trash of a thread.
User was warned for this post
There's actually a designated balance discussion thread. Needless whining and complaining isn't allowed, but discussion is.
GUYS I JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT COULD BE A A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT SEEKER MISSILE WILL HIT WHERE AN UNIT DIES?? MAKE 5 RAVENS SEEKER MISSILE A FAST UNIT, AND SUICIDE THEM INTO ZERG'S ARMY! IT EVEN WORKS WITH CLOAKED UNITS (BANSHEES COMES TO MIND)....
Ok I'm not saying this unit cannot be fungalled, or such... BUT this provides a "infinite" range seeker missile! I tried in the unit tester, make a hellion run under the ravens, mass HSM the hellions and run into a blob of enemies.... Insta gib from a seeker missile casted like 20+ range away!!
On June 20 2012 03:51 xTrim wrote: GUYS I JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT COULD BE A A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT SEEKER MISSILE WILL HIT WHERE AN UNIT DIES?? MAKE 5 RAVENS SEEKER MISSILE A FAST UNIT, AND SUICIDE THEM INTO ZERG'S ARMY! IT EVEN WORKS WITH CLOAKED UNITS (BANSHEES COMES TO MIND)....
Ok I'm not saying this unit cannot be fungalled, or such... BUT this provides a "infinite" range seeker missile! I tried in the unit tester, make a hellion run under the ravens, mass HSM the hellions and run into a blob of enemies.... Insta gib from a seeker missile casted like 20+ range away!!
Interesting but it doesnt really solve the BL deathball though. Since this idea revolves around HSM on a fast unit like hellion but the BL has a sick range and will destroy everything before it even get the chance to get close. It might work with a flying unit though but it can still be risky but interesting
On June 19 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote: On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
Quote DRG ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge."
Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so!
Quote MVP "Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg."
I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race).
"I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist."
There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all.
"I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything. "
So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease?
Quote Supernova "It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. "
Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken.
Trying to downtalk top notch Korean pros = big fail
Downtalk? As in pretend I know more then they do? I don't and I will never say I do. Nothing I said is unreasonable. People such as every Terran in this thread, protosses, zergs, INCLUDING koreans much of the time think their race is the weakest. And some of those statements are just silly. I commented how I saw it.
On June 19 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote: On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
Quote DRG ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge."
Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so!
Quote MVP "Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg."
I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race).
"I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist."
There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all.
"I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything. "
So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease?
Quote Supernova "It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. "
Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken.
Trying to downtalk top notch Korean pros = big fail
Downtalk? As in pretend I know more then they do? I don't and I will never say I do. Nothing I said is unreasonable. People such as every Terran in this thread, protosses, zergs, INCLUDING koreans much of the time think their race is the weakest. And some of those statements are just silly. I commented how I saw it.
Just aboud everything you said was unreasonable at best. You clearly lack any sort of thorough understanding on the topic. TL should really open up a subforum that you have to link your bnet account to so that scrubleague theorycraft allstars can only read and not be heard.
On June 20 2012 03:51 xTrim wrote: GUYS I JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT COULD BE A A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT SEEKER MISSILE WILL HIT WHERE AN UNIT DIES?? MAKE 5 RAVENS SEEKER MISSILE A FAST UNIT, AND SUICIDE THEM INTO ZERG'S ARMY! IT EVEN WORKS WITH CLOAKED UNITS (BANSHEES COMES TO MIND)....
Ok I'm not saying this unit cannot be fungalled, or such... BUT this provides a "infinite" range seeker missile! I tried in the unit tester, make a hellion run under the ravens, mass HSM the hellions and run into a blob of enemies.... Insta gib from a seeker missile casted like 20+ range away!!
Interesting but it doesnt really solve the BL deathball though. Since this idea revolves around HSM on a fast unit like hellion but the BL has a sick range and will destroy everything before it even get the chance to get close. It might work with a flying unit though but it can still be risky but interesting
brood lords cannot outrun seeker missiles; so no worries.
On June 19 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote: On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
Quote DRG ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge."
Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so!
Quote MVP "Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg."
I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race).
"I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist."
There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all.
"I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything. "
So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease?
Quote Supernova "It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. "
Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken.
Trying to downtalk top notch Korean pros = big fail
Downtalk? As in pretend I know more then they do? I don't and I will never say I do. Nothing I said is unreasonable. People such as every Terran in this thread, protosses, zergs, INCLUDING koreans much of the time think their race is the weakest. And some of those statements are just silly. I commented how I saw it.
Just aboud everything you said was unreasonable at best. You clearly lack any sort of thorough understanding on the topic. TL should really open up a subforum that you have to link your bnet account to so that scrubleague theorycraft allstars can only read and not be heard.
You aren't explaining what parts are unreasonable. Just because you don't agree does not make what I said wrong. Also, I'm low masters, no I'm not a complete idiot. Get of your TL "I'm anonymously better than you" high-horse please.
On June 19 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote: On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
Quote DRG ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge."
Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so!
Quote MVP "Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg."
I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race).
"I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist."
There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all.
"I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything. "
So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease?
Quote Supernova "It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. "
Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken.
Trying to downtalk top notch Korean pros = big fail
Downtalk? As in pretend I know more then they do? I don't and I will never say I do. Nothing I said is unreasonable. People such as every Terran in this thread, protosses, zergs, INCLUDING koreans much of the time think their race is the weakest. And some of those statements are just silly. I commented how I saw it.
Just aboud everything you said was unreasonable at best. You clearly lack any sort of thorough understanding on the topic. TL should really open up a subforum that you have to link your bnet account to so that scrubleague theorycraft allstars can only read and not be heard.
You aren't explaining what parts are unreasonable. Just because you don't agree does not make what I said wrong. Also, I'm low masters, no I'm not a complete idiot. Get of your TL "I'm anonymously better than you" high-horse please.
Low masters is total scrub league compared to the calibur of play thats being discussed. When did I ever say that I am better than you ? Nowhere. The only thing I pointed out was that you have no idea what you are talking about, and it is laughable that you would even comment on what code S players have to say about the matchup. Especially when you do so in such a manner that implies you have some insight into it that they themselves have not considered/tried before.
I'm not going to go through and highlight your idiocy piece by piece just so that you can form some circular arguement that goes nowhere. You kind of proved my point when you cited being low masters as some sort of validation to your ramblings.
ah the balance QQ in this is amazing. TvZ as i see it today 1. zerg favored when zerg gets ahead in economy (thats the way its supposed to be) 2. zerg has map control early to mid game (thats how it always used to be before helions become popular) 3. zerg is ultilizing its entire tech tree (ok minus hydras cause lets be honest current hydras are a joke) 4. zerg is opting to force late game where it is the strongest with infestor play 5. Terran is not utilizing their tech tree to their fullest 6. terran is not exploiting the weakness of infestors 7. Terran havnt evolved the meta game to change with the patch at all levels. 8. ghost are needed to deal with late game zerg how do expect to win agaisnt an army with spell casters without anything designed to handle them 9 terran need to take map control mid-late game hive tech is super slow from zerg 10. terrans win out 99% of low econ games thats my thoughts i dont know how "balanced" the match up is atm its impossible to say terrans arent adapting to zergs play we have seen many zergs lose to terrans at recent mlg's and gsl its definatly not unwinnable
On June 19 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote: On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
Quote DRG ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge."
Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so!
Quote MVP "Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg."
I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race).
"I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist."
There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all.
"I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything. "
So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease?
Quote Supernova "It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. "
Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken.
Trying to downtalk top notch Korean pros = big fail
Downtalk? As in pretend I know more then they do? I don't and I will never say I do. Nothing I said is unreasonable. People such as every Terran in this thread, protosses, zergs, INCLUDING koreans much of the time think their race is the weakest. And some of those statements are just silly. I commented how I saw it.
Just aboud everything you said was unreasonable at best. You clearly lack any sort of thorough understanding on the topic. TL should really open up a subforum that you have to link your bnet account to so that scrubleague theorycraft allstars can only read and not be heard.
You aren't explaining what parts are unreasonable. Just because you don't agree does not make what I said wrong. Also, I'm low masters, no I'm not a complete idiot. Get of your TL "I'm anonymously better than you" high-horse please.
This is a professional SC2 site. I don't believe it's unreasonable to invest credibility in the opinions of professional SC2 players here. If your position is really "Just because you don't agree does not make what I said wrong" then you shouldn't so easily disregard the opinions of several professionals (including arguably one of the top Zergs in the world right now), or imply they are wrong (particularly on a professional SC2 site). I hope you see why this is hypocritical and unreasonable now that (to quote you) the shoe is on the other foot.
On June 20 2012 05:31 psychotics wrote: ah the balance QQ in this is amazing. TvZ as i see it today 1. zerg favored when zerg gets ahead in economy (thats the way its supposed to be) 2. zerg has map control early to mid game (thats how it always used to be before helions become popular) 3. zerg is ultilizing its entire tech tree (ok minus hydras cause lets be honest current hydras are a joke) 4. zerg is opting to force late game where it is the strongest with infestor play 5. Terran is not utilizing their tech tree to their fullest 6. terran is not exploiting the weakness of infestors 7. Terran havnt evolved the meta game to change with the patch at all levels. 8. ghost are needed to deal with late game zerg how do expect to win agaisnt an army with spell casters without anything designed to handle them 9 terran need to take map control mid-late game hive tech is super slow from zerg 10. terrans win out 99% of low econ games thats my thoughts i dont know how "balanced" the match up is atm its impossible to say terrans arent adapting to zergs play we have seen many zergs lose to terrans at recent mlg's and gsl its definatly not unwinnable
1. The matchup is zerg favoured when both players have the same economy. This is because infestor ling is much more cost efficiënt then muta ling bling.
2. Yes, true, and I don't see the point you are trying to make.
3. Zergs use their entire tech tree indeed. Every unit besides the hydra is viable. Good for zergs.
4. Zergs are not only aiming for the lategame. You should watch tournaments. Zergs are roach ling bling busting their opponents hard, and with success. They are also 2 base ling bling busting, also with success. Then there are midgame timings which zergs exploit too. My point: zergs have early, mid and late game strenghts atm.
5. Terrans are damn hard utilizing their tech tree to their fullest. The sad thing is that a lot of tech is just not viable. - battlecruisers are a joke (the combination of corruptor infestor is amazing against it) - ravens need 125 energy for 1 hsm. You need 2 hsm's to kill 1 broodlord (unless they clump up = zerg mistake). You lose your raven if it casts hsm. - ghosts are only good at emping / sniping infestors, and every terran knows how impossible it is to emp / snipe even half of the infestors
6. Terrans do exploit the weakness of the infestor. They use marauders to target fire them. They spread out. What else are they supposed to do?
7. There is no evolving possible. Terrans are limited by their buildorders, because of possible zerg allins. Terrans are limited by unit compositions, because very few compositions are okay against zerg (see how I wrote okay: you still need a ton of micro, and even then it's hard to trade cost efficiënt). There is not much to explore. Do you really think terran progamers need so long to figure out the sollutions?
8. Ghosts are indeed needed against infestors, but they are not game winning. You will have opportunities to snipe / emp some infestors, but at the end some fungals will go off, and you die.
9. That's the whole problem: terran try to take mapcontrol, but infestors are so damn good at defending, that by the time the terran killed 1 hatchery, hive is done. The terran will be forced to retreat. The zerg will take more bases. And then what? Imagine the zerg went broodlord infestor. I never saw a terran unit composition that trades cost efficiently with this (expect clumped up broodlords vs mass raven with hsm).
On June 20 2012 05:31 psychotics wrote: ah the balance QQ in this is amazing. TvZ as i see it today 1. zerg favored when zerg gets ahead in economy (thats the way its supposed to be) 2. zerg has map control early to mid game (thats how it always used to be before helions become popular) 3. zerg is ultilizing its entire tech tree (ok minus hydras cause lets be honest current hydras are a joke) 4. zerg is opting to force late game where it is the strongest with infestor play 5. Terran is not utilizing their tech tree to their fullest 6. terran is not exploiting the weakness of infestors 7. Terran havnt evolved the meta game to change with the patch at all levels. 8. ghost are needed to deal with late game zerg how do expect to win agaisnt an army with spell casters without anything designed to handle them 9 terran need to take map control mid-late game hive tech is super slow from zerg 10. terrans win out 99% of low econ games thats my thoughts i dont know how "balanced" the match up is atm its impossible to say terrans arent adapting to zergs play we have seen many zergs lose to terrans at recent mlg's and gsl its definatly not unwinnable
1. The matchup is zerg favoured when both players have the same economy. This is because infestor ling is much more cost efficiënt then muta ling bling.
2. Yes, true, and I don't see the point you are trying to make.
3. Zergs use their entire tech tree indeed. Every unit besides the hydra is viable. Good for zergs.
4. Zergs are not only aiming for the lategame. You should watch tournaments. Zergs are roach ling bling busting their opponents hard, and with success. They are also 2 base ling bling busting, also with success. Then there are midgame timings which zergs exploit too. My point: zergs have early, mid and late game strenghts atm.
5. Terrans are damn hard utilizing their tech tree to their fullest. The sad thing is that a lot of tech is just not viable. - battlecruisers are a joke (the combination of corruptor infestor is amazing against it) - ravens need 125 energy for 1 hsm. You need 2 hsm's to kill 1 broodlord (unless they clump up = zerg mistake). You lose your raven if it casts hsm. - ghosts are only good at emping / sniping infestors, and every terran knows how impossible it is to emp / snipe even half of the infestors
6. Terrans do exploit the weakness of the infestor. They use marauders to target fire them. They spread out. What else are they supposed to do?
7. There is no evolving possible. Terrans are limited by their buildorders, because of possible zerg allins. Terrans are limited by unit compositions, because very few compositions are okay against zerg (see how I wrote okay: you still need a ton of micro, and even then it's hard to trade cost efficiënt). There is not much to explore. Do you really think terran progamers need so long to figure out the sollutions?
8. Ghosts are indeed needed against infestors, but they are not game winning. You will have opportunities to snipe / emp some infestors, but at the end some fungals will go off, and you die.
9. That's the whole problem: terran try to take mapcontrol, but infestors are so damn good at defending, that by the time the terran killed 1 hatchery, hive is done. The terran will be forced to retreat. The zerg will take more bases. And then what? Imagine the zerg went broodlord infestor. I never saw a terran unit composition that trades cost efficiently with this (expect clumped up broodlords vs mass raven with hsm).
My point is terran has options ghost deal with infestors Ravens help with the air v air battle (PDD not HSM although sure if u get one off great but PDD is better all around) i have watched probally more tournaments then u have haha been watching almost every major tournament since opens season 1 of GSL. terran has an advantage mid game against infestor play. ive seen many tournaments where 1 medvac drop just wins the terran the game vs zerg. ghost should be used to snipe the infestors not mauraders is my point. sure early in the game use small groups of units to try and snag a infestor but once u get past 3 bases u really should add ghost if u are facing infestor play.
Terrans are limited by their build orders true but not because of possible allins any more then all the other races. terrans are in my opinion to set in their ways and until they start adapting to the changes they will have trouble. look at the evolution of zergs play from open season 1 till now its not much different then how terrans are now. they need to change their ways to deal with things or they need to wait for a patch/HotS lol just my thoughts. terran play is too stagnant at the moment and needs someone to come along and re-inspire them
Congrats MarineKing. Your 3rd place is the best Terran result in 8 events this month. Honorable mention to Beasty for being the only other Terran to make a semifinal.
Congrats MarineKing. Your 3rd place is the best Terran result in 8 events this month. Honorable mention to Beasty for being the only other Terran to make a semifinal.
On June 19 2012 09:48 EienShinwa wrote: Holy Fucking shi- now you're just giving out fucking excuses in the form of asking for empirical evidence. You're LITERALLY grabbing at straws at this point. You've been theorycrafting this entire time and yet when someone tries to prove you wrong, you simply cry "show me a vod". There were many things in your response that made me scoff in disbelief at how ignorant or unknowing you are in TvZ, but I'll focus on the major ones that irked me.
If the current state of zerg being favoured over terran is so prevalent then it should not be a problem to illustrate a point of view with evidence. Especially when I'm asking KawaiiRice that plays each day and thus has dozens of replays to give.
That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away.
Think about it. WHAT fucking zerg will let a terran let a raven let alone ravens near enough their army to release flying bombs that move at 0.5 speed with a shitty range? Are you that desperate to defend your claim that ravens have potential, that you actually believe a zerg will let ravens near their masses of lings, ultras, infestors, etc?
Zerg can't run away from Ravens forever, in fact it would silly to see whole zerg army running away after seeing like one incoming raven. You just agreed ravens have the power necessary to make them cost efficient, even taking into account the need to wait until 125 energy and 2 upgrades - energy and HSM. BTW who said it's the ravens that have to try to fly close enough? Zerg can also be the attacker and in that case units get close enough by themselves.
Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane.
I don't know if you actually tried EMPing fucking anything, but in SCII, units move, believe it or not. And Zerg moves the fucking fastest. It's hard enough to try and emp Protoss while they are moving around and not lose ghosts uselessly, but Zerg? The major problem here is the amount of DPS that SCII units do. As a result of this, trying to emp infestors behind enemy lines is not worth the risk the rewards may bring. Even if you EMP the infestors, it doesn't mean you can kill all the cracklings + ultras + banelings, or kill all the cracklings+banelings+broodlords. To say that you can EMP or snipe any amount of infestors while zerglings move at the speed of light and fungal will instantly catch ghosts is easier said than done. It's fucking near impossible. Ever try EMPing the Protoss army before engagement? Because units move so fucking fast, the skill to accurately EMP units on target due to the fact that EMP is a projectile is incredibly difficult. This is an excuse, yes, but I hope you know how hard it is to EMP on constantly moving units when your ghosts are fucking slow as shit. You don't even know half of it if you haven't played Terran before.
I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period.
I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier.
Do you know why people use tanks at all? Tanks believe it or not, still are effective in TvZ until broodlords. And they can actually, you know, kill shit while the only use for ghosts is to EMP infestors. Now think about this, commit a large amount of resources for the CHANCE, a fucking CHANCE, to not even kill but EMP infestors or have tanks that GUARANTEE some kills, whether this be target firing infestors, killing masses of lings, or barraging utralisks.
There is no need to commit large amount of resources to take care of infestors. If tanks would as good as you are saying then there wouldn't be people here whining about fungal being op.
Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too.
I hope you're trolling or your ability to make any sort of claims go right out the fucking window.
You are definitely not making any sense here. Do you know what word instantaneously means? Maybe you meant something different but used a wrong word?
I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP.
I don't think you understand this from a Terran perspective. Making ghosts in TvZ is not a credible option, it's a fucking risk. You aren't guaranteed to EMP ANY infestors let alone kill them with ghosts. And to get all the upgrades necessary is a HUGE risk you are taking just to take care of infestors. Getting those ghosts leaves you in a do-or-die situation. You can get those magical EMPs that get EVERY SINGLE infestor, or you miss one or two and get steamrolled, because you spent your resources on those ghosts that could have gone to extra marines, marauders, medivacs, tanks, etc. And even if you EMP every infestor, that doesn't guarantee jack shit - he can still have more units than you because you stupidly spent all that money on ghosts.
You aren't talking from a perspective of a competent terran player, you are talking from a perspective a whiner and your claim is a blown out of proportion whine. I strongly believe you simply gave up on using ghosts after few fails when using them which were a result of mistakes or wrong conclusions on your part.
This beetlelisk guy is quite the character. Such theorycrafting is inane and simply trying to divert the attention that the actual problem that needs to be addressed. All of your questions have already been answered by progamers and higher league individuals, therefore I just don't understand your reason for continuing to grasp at straws.
Lol what questions and what answers? I believe to be the first to asking my questions so how can they already be answered? And how am I diverting the attention??? I am diving directly into specifics of the problem, am I not?
Most of your questions like getting ghosts to emp infestors and potential to use ravens in the TvZ mu are nonsensical. It's already been proven that it's gimmicky, not standard, and most importantly not very feasible to effectively use those units to their supposed maximum potential when they can be abused so easily.
I don't see using ghosts to be proven as impossible or "not feasible" in this thread, even though I asked for VODs or replays. I don't know how using Ravens against lings, banes and mutas is nonsensical as I don't believe they were ever used to do that, instead they were always used as anti brood lord weapon. We simply don't have the data to state that.
Ghosts are incredibly slow and emp is very hard to use on infestors when there are lings, banelings, and ultralisks in front of them. Even if you cloak, the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3 and then all your ghosts will be insta-killed because he'll know and fungal.
That's why I keep on saying to spread out ghosts. Also give me an example of "the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3" in the form of a VOD or a replay. And also by the time you have ghosts you sure do have medivacs so there is anything needed to bypass zerg fighting units and reach the infestors with EMPs, either by ground or air, in medivacs.
To tell us that we should split ghosts and take our time sniping all of your 8-10 infestors is fucking ridiculous.
I haven't ever said to snipe and I don't see how it's ridiculous.
Additionally, you're just relying on luck that he will keep all his infestors clumped together if you think you'll get them all the first round. Why must we rely on luck?
What luck are you talking about? It's only natural that they are clumped because units in SC2 naturally get clumped when being moved around. And Infestors are being clumped because good players keep them on a different hot key. Since so many people in this thread are completely missing the anti-caster role of the ghost I guess zergs don't really feel the need to spread out their infestors when there is not a single ghost on the field in most of their games, so they get used to it and never spread their Infestors.
All this proves is that Terran must play exponentially better than the Zerg,
You haven't proven anything.
[the Zerg] who is a moving with his army and keeping all his infestors together to mass fungal the terran's army. Why are we required to outplay Zerg by trying to emp all your infestors with 1-2 ghosts at a time, while keeping up with macro cycles, not getting supply blocked, making more buildings, expanding, etc?
This is ridiculous, it's like saying zerg doesn't have to do the same or even more in terms of expanding.
Granted, you're also doing the same, but imagine trying to use 1-2 burrowed infestors at a time to get rid of tank siege line positions. Do you understand why it's so illogical? Ravens are in a similar situation, when that even if they launch heat seeker missiles into groups of infestors and zerglings, because of the insanely slow speed of the HSM and of the raven, you'll be incredibly lucky to hit more than 1 if not 1.
That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away.
Then they'll just get fungaled and killed. Unless you ask we should do the same thing you suggested with the ghost. I already explained that above.The thing that is most important to note is that both of these spell casters for terran only have projectile spells that are slower than the other races' spells and are not cost efficient due to the fact that the apm required to skillfully and efficiently use them is just insane.
Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane.
It's also completely bullshit that people are commenting that terran should rely on ghosts and ravens more, but that's fucking stupid. Why must we rely entirely on these two spellcasters to win us the game?
I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier.
Terran is fundamentally different from Zerg and Protoss in that we can't make units instantaneously.
Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too.
Getting ravens and ghosts early for us doesn't help us, it fucking hurts us. We need those extra marines, marauders, medivacs, and vikings to fucking attack early like the retarded ass game designers at Blizzard want.
I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP.
Take a moment to understand this sentence: The longer the game goes on, the fucking harder it is for us to win.
There is nothing to understand, there is a lot to prove to be correct.
Why would I build such an expensive, slow unit that I have to upgrade the HSM and wait till it has 125 energy just to shot a HSM missle at the fastest unit in the game (lings) and banelings and mutas? There is no way that the HSM will hit lings, mutas, or bane before they die. There is also a delay on the animation before it starts accelerating and during this animation, the raven is unable to move and this is usually when they die. Dont forget that by firing your HSM close, it will also have the potetntial to kill the raven and without a high raven count....raven are not that good. It to much of a risk....it like saying, you should take your infestor and go infront of a marine bio army and then fungal them so they cant run away from you (a bit over exaggerated though)
The AOE on fungal is like 4-5 EMP. It is also instant.....pretty damn hard to split your ghost and from what i remember, fungal has a bigger range then emp too.
During the HSM animation of accelerating raven is unable to move? What are you talking about? HSM can't kill a raven because raven has 140 hit points and HSM deals up to 100 damage and raven by standing at the edge of explosion would definitely take way less damage.
The radius of fungal is 2 and EMP's is 1,5. This means aoe of fungal is less than 2 EMPs. I don't know what is hard about splitting 3 to 5 ghosts. EMP's range is 10, Fungal's is 9.
On June 19 2012 09:48 EienShinwa wrote: Holy Fucking shi- now you're just giving out fucking excuses in the form of asking for empirical evidence. You're LITERALLY grabbing at straws at this point. You've been theorycrafting this entire time and yet when someone tries to prove you wrong, you simply cry "show me a vod". There were many things in your response that made me scoff in disbelief at how ignorant or unknowing you are in TvZ, but I'll focus on the major ones that irked me.
If the current state of zerg being favoured over terran is so prevalent then it should not be a problem to illustrate a point of view with evidence. Especially when I'm asking KawaiiRice that plays each day and thus has dozens of replays to give.
That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away.
Think about it. WHAT fucking zerg will let a terran let a raven let alone ravens near enough their army to release flying bombs that move at 0.5 speed with a shitty range? Are you that desperate to defend your claim that ravens have potential, that you actually believe a zerg will let ravens near their masses of lings, ultras, infestors, etc?
Zerg can't run away from Ravens forever, in fact it would silly to see whole zerg army running away after seeing like one incoming raven. You just agreed ravens have the power necessary to make them cost efficient, even taking into account the need to wait until 125 energy and 2 upgrades - energy and HSM. BTW who said it's the ravens that have to try to fly close enough? Zerg can also be the attacker and in that case units get close enough by themselves.
Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane.
I don't know if you actually tried EMPing fucking anything, but in SCII, units move, believe it or not. And Zerg moves the fucking fastest. It's hard enough to try and emp Protoss while they are moving around and not lose ghosts uselessly, but Zerg? The major problem here is the amount of DPS that SCII units do. As a result of this, trying to emp infestors behind enemy lines is not worth the risk the rewards may bring. Even if you EMP the infestors, it doesn't mean you can kill all the cracklings + ultras + banelings, or kill all the cracklings+banelings+broodlords. To say that you can EMP or snipe any amount of infestors while zerglings move at the speed of light and fungal will instantly catch ghosts is easier said than done. It's fucking near impossible. Ever try EMPing the Protoss army before engagement? Because units move so fucking fast, the skill to accurately EMP units on target due to the fact that EMP is a projectile is incredibly difficult. This is an excuse, yes, but I hope you know how hard it is to EMP on constantly moving units when your ghosts are fucking slow as shit. You don't even know half of it if you haven't played Terran before.
I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period.
I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier.
Do you know why people use tanks at all? Tanks believe it or not, still are effective in TvZ until broodlords. And they can actually, you know, kill shit while the only use for ghosts is to EMP infestors. Now think about this, commit a large amount of resources for the CHANCE, a fucking CHANCE, to not even kill but EMP infestors or have tanks that GUARANTEE some kills, whether this be target firing infestors, killing masses of lings, or barraging utralisks.
There is no need to commit large amount of resources to take care of infestors. If tanks would as good as you are saying then there wouldn't be people here whining about fungal being op.
Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too.
I hope you're trolling or your ability to make any sort of claims go right out the fucking window.
You are definitely not making any sense here. Do you know what word instantaneously means? Maybe you meant something different but used a wrong word?
I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP.
I don't think you understand this from a Terran perspective. Making ghosts in TvZ is not a credible option, it's a fucking risk. You aren't guaranteed to EMP ANY infestors let alone kill them with ghosts. And to get all the upgrades necessary is a HUGE risk you are taking just to take care of infestors. Getting those ghosts leaves you in a do-or-die situation. You can get those magical EMPs that get EVERY SINGLE infestor, or you miss one or two and get steamrolled, because you spent your resources on those ghosts that could have gone to extra marines, marauders, medivacs, tanks, etc. And even if you EMP every infestor, that doesn't guarantee jack shit - he can still have more units than you because you stupidly spent all that money on ghosts.
You aren't talking from a perspective of a competent terran player, you are talking from a perspective a whiner and your claim is a blown out of proportion whine. I strongly believe you simply gave up on using ghosts after few fails when using them which were a result of mistakes or wrong conclusions on your part.
This beetlelisk guy is quite the character. Such theorycrafting is inane and simply trying to divert the attention that the actual problem that needs to be addressed. All of your questions have already been answered by progamers and higher league individuals, therefore I just don't understand your reason for continuing to grasp at straws.
Lol what questions and what answers? I believe to be the first to asking my questions so how can they already be answered? And how am I diverting the attention??? I am diving directly into specifics of the problem, am I not?
Most of your questions like getting ghosts to emp infestors and potential to use ravens in the TvZ mu are nonsensical. It's already been proven that it's gimmicky, not standard, and most importantly not very feasible to effectively use those units to their supposed maximum potential when they can be abused so easily.
I don't see using ghosts to be proven as impossible or "not feasible" in this thread, even though I asked for VODs or replays. I don't know how using Ravens against lings, banes and mutas is nonsensical as I don't believe they were ever used to do that, instead they were always used as anti brood lord weapon. We simply don't have the data to state that.
Ghosts are incredibly slow and emp is very hard to use on infestors when there are lings, banelings, and ultralisks in front of them. Even if you cloak, the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3 and then all your ghosts will be insta-killed because he'll know and fungal.
That's why I keep on saying to spread out ghosts. Also give me an example of "the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3" in the form of a VOD or a replay. And also by the time you have ghosts you sure do have medivacs so there is anything needed to bypass zerg fighting units and reach the infestors with EMPs, either by ground or air, in medivacs.
To tell us that we should split ghosts and take our time sniping all of your 8-10 infestors is fucking ridiculous.
I haven't ever said to snipe and I don't see how it's ridiculous.
Additionally, you're just relying on luck that he will keep all his infestors clumped together if you think you'll get them all the first round. Why must we rely on luck?
What luck are you talking about? It's only natural that they are clumped because units in SC2 naturally get clumped when being moved around. And Infestors are being clumped because good players keep them on a different hot key. Since so many people in this thread are completely missing the anti-caster role of the ghost I guess zergs don't really feel the need to spread out their infestors when there is not a single ghost on the field in most of their games, so they get used to it and never spread their Infestors.
All this proves is that Terran must play exponentially better than the Zerg,
You haven't proven anything.
[the Zerg] who is a moving with his army and keeping all his infestors together to mass fungal the terran's army. Why are we required to outplay Zerg by trying to emp all your infestors with 1-2 ghosts at a time, while keeping up with macro cycles, not getting supply blocked, making more buildings, expanding, etc?
This is ridiculous, it's like saying zerg doesn't have to do the same or even more in terms of expanding.
Granted, you're also doing the same, but imagine trying to use 1-2 burrowed infestors at a time to get rid of tank siege line positions. Do you understand why it's so illogical? Ravens are in a similar situation, when that even if they launch heat seeker missiles into groups of infestors and zerglings, because of the insanely slow speed of the HSM and of the raven, you'll be incredibly lucky to hit more than 1 if not 1.
That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away.
Then they'll just get fungaled and killed. Unless you ask we should do the same thing you suggested with the ghost. I already explained that above.The thing that is most important to note is that both of these spell casters for terran only have projectile spells that are slower than the other races' spells and are not cost efficient due to the fact that the apm required to skillfully and efficiently use them is just insane.
Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane.
It's also completely bullshit that people are commenting that terran should rely on ghosts and ravens more, but that's fucking stupid. Why must we rely entirely on these two spellcasters to win us the game?
I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier.
Terran is fundamentally different from Zerg and Protoss in that we can't make units instantaneously.
Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too.
Getting ravens and ghosts early for us doesn't help us, it fucking hurts us. We need those extra marines, marauders, medivacs, and vikings to fucking attack early like the retarded ass game designers at Blizzard want.
I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP.
Take a moment to understand this sentence: The longer the game goes on, the fucking harder it is for us to win.
There is nothing to understand, there is a lot to prove to be correct.
Why would I build such an expensive, slow unit that I have to upgrade the HSM and wait till it has 125 energy just to shot a HSM missle at the fastest unit in the game (lings) and banelings and mutas? There is no way that the HSM will hit lings, mutas, or bane before they die. There is also a delay on the animation before it starts accelerating and during this animation, the raven is unable to move and this is usually when they die. Dont forget that by firing your HSM close, it will also have the potetntial to kill the raven and without a high raven count....raven are not that good. It to much of a risk....it like saying, you should take your infestor and go infront of a marine bio army and then fungal them so they cant run away from you (a bit over exaggerated though)
The AOE on fungal is like 4-5 EMP. It is also instant.....pretty damn hard to split your ghost and from what i remember, fungal has a bigger range then emp too.
During the HSM animation of accelerating raven is unable to move? What are you talking about? HSM can't kill a raven because raven has 140 hit points and HSM deals up to 100 damage and raven by standing at the edge of explosion would definitely take way less damage.
The radius of fungal is 2 and EMP's is 1,5. This means aoe of fungal is less than 2 EMPs. I don't know what is hard about splitting 3 to 5 ghosts. EMP's range is 10, Fungal's is 9.
I'll bite on a few of those points.
I like working off empirical evidence, it's generally the best way to go. There are exceptions though, such as when one is unable to analyze said data. In this case, one needs to trust the people that are able to do so. If you analyze a replay of a pro and a pro analyzes the replay, I trust the pro. What you want to do is have pro players provide the replays they analyze for you to scrutinize. But people do not accept your ability to analyze them, and thus it does not make sense to ask that. In fact, it's somewhat insulting to question the analysis of a pro from your perspective. And this made people upset.
Yet, here's something. Ravens were used in the games between Symbol and MKP, you could analyze those for us and see whether that creates discussion.
On another other point:
Ravens dying because they are immobile while they cast HSM - they do not die to the HSM itself, but get killed because they cannot run away from the Z forces about to kill them.
I'll leave the actual gameplay analysis to the many pros/better players than I.
On June 19 2012 09:48 EienShinwa wrote: Holy Fucking shi- now you're just giving out fucking excuses in the form of asking for empirical evidence. You're LITERALLY grabbing at straws at this point. You've been theorycrafting this entire time and yet when someone tries to prove you wrong, you simply cry "show me a vod". There were many things in your response that made me scoff in disbelief at how ignorant or unknowing you are in TvZ, but I'll focus on the major ones that irked me.
If the current state of zerg being favoured over terran is so prevalent then it should not be a problem to illustrate a point of view with evidence. Especially when I'm asking KawaiiRice that plays each day and thus has dozens of replays to give.
That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away.
Think about it. WHAT fucking zerg will let a terran let a raven let alone ravens near enough their army to release flying bombs that move at 0.5 speed with a shitty range? Are you that desperate to defend your claim that ravens have potential, that you actually believe a zerg will let ravens near their masses of lings, ultras, infestors, etc?
Zerg can't run away from Ravens forever, in fact it would silly to see whole zerg army running away after seeing like one incoming raven. You just agreed ravens have the power necessary to make them cost efficient, even taking into account the need to wait until 125 energy and 2 upgrades - energy and HSM. BTW who said it's the ravens that have to try to fly close enough? Zerg can also be the attacker and in that case units get close enough by themselves.
Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane.
I don't know if you actually tried EMPing fucking anything, but in SCII, units move, believe it or not. And Zerg moves the fucking fastest. It's hard enough to try and emp Protoss while they are moving around and not lose ghosts uselessly, but Zerg? The major problem here is the amount of DPS that SCII units do. As a result of this, trying to emp infestors behind enemy lines is not worth the risk the rewards may bring. Even if you EMP the infestors, it doesn't mean you can kill all the cracklings + ultras + banelings, or kill all the cracklings+banelings+broodlords. To say that you can EMP or snipe any amount of infestors while zerglings move at the speed of light and fungal will instantly catch ghosts is easier said than done. It's fucking near impossible. Ever try EMPing the Protoss army before engagement? Because units move so fucking fast, the skill to accurately EMP units on target due to the fact that EMP is a projectile is incredibly difficult. This is an excuse, yes, but I hope you know how hard it is to EMP on constantly moving units when your ghosts are fucking slow as shit. You don't even know half of it if you haven't played Terran before.
I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period.
I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier.
Do you know why people use tanks at all? Tanks believe it or not, still are effective in TvZ until broodlords. And they can actually, you know, kill shit while the only use for ghosts is to EMP infestors. Now think about this, commit a large amount of resources for the CHANCE, a fucking CHANCE, to not even kill but EMP infestors or have tanks that GUARANTEE some kills, whether this be target firing infestors, killing masses of lings, or barraging utralisks.
There is no need to commit large amount of resources to take care of infestors. If tanks would as good as you are saying then there wouldn't be people here whining about fungal being op.
Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too.
I hope you're trolling or your ability to make any sort of claims go right out the fucking window.
You are definitely not making any sense here. Do you know what word instantaneously means? Maybe you meant something different but used a wrong word?
I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP.
I don't think you understand this from a Terran perspective. Making ghosts in TvZ is not a credible option, it's a fucking risk. You aren't guaranteed to EMP ANY infestors let alone kill them with ghosts. And to get all the upgrades necessary is a HUGE risk you are taking just to take care of infestors. Getting those ghosts leaves you in a do-or-die situation. You can get those magical EMPs that get EVERY SINGLE infestor, or you miss one or two and get steamrolled, because you spent your resources on those ghosts that could have gone to extra marines, marauders, medivacs, tanks, etc. And even if you EMP every infestor, that doesn't guarantee jack shit - he can still have more units than you because you stupidly spent all that money on ghosts.
You aren't talking from a perspective of a competent terran player, you are talking from a perspective a whiner and your claim is a blown out of proportion whine. I strongly believe you simply gave up on using ghosts after few fails when using them which were a result of mistakes or wrong conclusions on your part.
This beetlelisk guy is quite the character. Such theorycrafting is inane and simply trying to divert the attention that the actual problem that needs to be addressed. All of your questions have already been answered by progamers and higher league individuals, therefore I just don't understand your reason for continuing to grasp at straws.
Lol what questions and what answers? I believe to be the first to asking my questions so how can they already be answered? And how am I diverting the attention??? I am diving directly into specifics of the problem, am I not?
Most of your questions like getting ghosts to emp infestors and potential to use ravens in the TvZ mu are nonsensical. It's already been proven that it's gimmicky, not standard, and most importantly not very feasible to effectively use those units to their supposed maximum potential when they can be abused so easily.
I don't see using ghosts to be proven as impossible or "not feasible" in this thread, even though I asked for VODs or replays. I don't know how using Ravens against lings, banes and mutas is nonsensical as I don't believe they were ever used to do that, instead they were always used as anti brood lord weapon. We simply don't have the data to state that.
Ghosts are incredibly slow and emp is very hard to use on infestors when there are lings, banelings, and ultralisks in front of them. Even if you cloak, the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3 and then all your ghosts will be insta-killed because he'll know and fungal.
That's why I keep on saying to spread out ghosts. Also give me an example of "the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3" in the form of a VOD or a replay. And also by the time you have ghosts you sure do have medivacs so there is anything needed to bypass zerg fighting units and reach the infestors with EMPs, either by ground or air, in medivacs.
To tell us that we should split ghosts and take our time sniping all of your 8-10 infestors is fucking ridiculous.
I haven't ever said to snipe and I don't see how it's ridiculous.
Additionally, you're just relying on luck that he will keep all his infestors clumped together if you think you'll get them all the first round. Why must we rely on luck?
What luck are you talking about? It's only natural that they are clumped because units in SC2 naturally get clumped when being moved around. And Infestors are being clumped because good players keep them on a different hot key. Since so many people in this thread are completely missing the anti-caster role of the ghost I guess zergs don't really feel the need to spread out their infestors when there is not a single ghost on the field in most of their games, so they get used to it and never spread their Infestors.
All this proves is that Terran must play exponentially better than the Zerg,
You haven't proven anything.
[the Zerg] who is a moving with his army and keeping all his infestors together to mass fungal the terran's army. Why are we required to outplay Zerg by trying to emp all your infestors with 1-2 ghosts at a time, while keeping up with macro cycles, not getting supply blocked, making more buildings, expanding, etc?
This is ridiculous, it's like saying zerg doesn't have to do the same or even more in terms of expanding.
Granted, you're also doing the same, but imagine trying to use 1-2 burrowed infestors at a time to get rid of tank siege line positions. Do you understand why it's so illogical? Ravens are in a similar situation, when that even if they launch heat seeker missiles into groups of infestors and zerglings, because of the insanely slow speed of the HSM and of the raven, you'll be incredibly lucky to hit more than 1 if not 1.
That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away.
Then they'll just get fungaled and killed. Unless you ask we should do the same thing you suggested with the ghost. I already explained that above.The thing that is most important to note is that both of these spell casters for terran only have projectile spells that are slower than the other races' spells and are not cost efficient due to the fact that the apm required to skillfully and efficiently use them is just insane.
Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane.
It's also completely bullshit that people are commenting that terran should rely on ghosts and ravens more, but that's fucking stupid. Why must we rely entirely on these two spellcasters to win us the game?
I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier.
Terran is fundamentally different from Zerg and Protoss in that we can't make units instantaneously.
Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too.
Getting ravens and ghosts early for us doesn't help us, it fucking hurts us. We need those extra marines, marauders, medivacs, and vikings to fucking attack early like the retarded ass game designers at Blizzard want.
I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP.
Take a moment to understand this sentence: The longer the game goes on, the fucking harder it is for us to win.
There is nothing to understand, there is a lot to prove to be correct.
Why would I build such an expensive, slow unit that I have to upgrade the HSM and wait till it has 125 energy just to shot a HSM missle at the fastest unit in the game (lings) and banelings and mutas? There is no way that the HSM will hit lings, mutas, or bane before they die. There is also a delay on the animation before it starts accelerating and during this animation, the raven is unable to move and this is usually when they die. Dont forget that by firing your HSM close, it will also have the potetntial to kill the raven and without a high raven count....raven are not that good. It to much of a risk....it like saying, you should take your infestor and go infront of a marine bio army and then fungal them so they cant run away from you (a bit over exaggerated though)
The AOE on fungal is like 4-5 EMP. It is also instant.....pretty damn hard to split your ghost and from what i remember, fungal has a bigger range then emp too.
During the HSM animation of accelerating raven is unable to move? What are you talking about? HSM can't kill a raven because raven has 140 hit points and HSM deals up to 100 damage and raven by standing at the edge of explosion would definitely take way less damage.
The radius of fungal is 2 and EMP's is 1,5. This means aoe of fungal is less than 2 EMPs. I don't know what is hard about splitting 3 to 5 ghosts. EMP's range is 10, Fungal's is 9.
I'll bite on a few of those points.
I like working off empirical evidence, it's generally the best way to go. There are exceptions though, such as when one is unable to analyze said data. In this case, one needs to trust the people that are able to do so. If you analyze a replay of a pro and a pro analyzes the replay, I trust the pro. What you want to do is have pro players provide the replays they analyze for you to scrutinize. But people do not accept your ability to analyze them, and thus it does not make sense to ask that. In fact, it's somewhat insulting to question the analysis of a pro from your perspective. And this made people upset.
All I did was ask for replays, since that hasn't happened I wasn't able to disagree with a pro's or anybody's analysis.
Yet, here's something. Ravens were used in the games between Symbol and MKP, you could analyze those for us and see whether that creates discussion.
On another other point:
Ravens dying because they are immobile while they cast HSM - they do not die to the HSM itself, but get killed because they cannot run away from the Z forces about to kill them.
I'll leave the actual gameplay analysis to the many pros/better players than I.
If you could give me a link to the game I would be very grateful. The only thing used that can kill a raven in a tvz is corruptors and this means terran didn't have enough vikings to protect ravens.
edit: it's 2AM so I'm going to sleep, see you guys tomorrow.
On June 19 2012 09:48 EienShinwa wrote: Holy Fucking shi- now you're just giving out fucking excuses in the form of asking for empirical evidence. You're LITERALLY grabbing at straws at this point. You've been theorycrafting this entire time and yet when someone tries to prove you wrong, you simply cry "show me a vod". There were many things in your response that made me scoff in disbelief at how ignorant or unknowing you are in TvZ, but I'll focus on the major ones that irked me.
If the current state of zerg being favoured over terran is so prevalent then it should not be a problem to illustrate a point of view with evidence. Especially when I'm asking KawaiiRice that plays each day and thus has dozens of replays to give.
That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away.
Think about it. WHAT fucking zerg will let a terran let a raven let alone ravens near enough their army to release flying bombs that move at 0.5 speed with a shitty range? Are you that desperate to defend your claim that ravens have potential, that you actually believe a zerg will let ravens near their masses of lings, ultras, infestors, etc?
Zerg can't run away from Ravens forever, in fact it would silly to see whole zerg army running away after seeing like one incoming raven. You just agreed ravens have the power necessary to make them cost efficient, even taking into account the need to wait until 125 energy and 2 upgrades - energy and HSM. BTW who said it's the ravens that have to try to fly close enough? Zerg can also be the attacker and in that case units get close enough by themselves.
Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane.
I don't know if you actually tried EMPing fucking anything, but in SCII, units move, believe it or not. And Zerg moves the fucking fastest. It's hard enough to try and emp Protoss while they are moving around and not lose ghosts uselessly, but Zerg? The major problem here is the amount of DPS that SCII units do. As a result of this, trying to emp infestors behind enemy lines is not worth the risk the rewards may bring. Even if you EMP the infestors, it doesn't mean you can kill all the cracklings + ultras + banelings, or kill all the cracklings+banelings+broodlords. To say that you can EMP or snipe any amount of infestors while zerglings move at the speed of light and fungal will instantly catch ghosts is easier said than done. It's fucking near impossible. Ever try EMPing the Protoss army before engagement? Because units move so fucking fast, the skill to accurately EMP units on target due to the fact that EMP is a projectile is incredibly difficult. This is an excuse, yes, but I hope you know how hard it is to EMP on constantly moving units when your ghosts are fucking slow as shit. You don't even know half of it if you haven't played Terran before.
I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period.
I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier.
Do you know why people use tanks at all? Tanks believe it or not, still are effective in TvZ until broodlords. And they can actually, you know, kill shit while the only use for ghosts is to EMP infestors. Now think about this, commit a large amount of resources for the CHANCE, a fucking CHANCE, to not even kill but EMP infestors or have tanks that GUARANTEE some kills, whether this be target firing infestors, killing masses of lings, or barraging utralisks.
There is no need to commit large amount of resources to take care of infestors. If tanks would as good as you are saying then there wouldn't be people here whining about fungal being op.
Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too.
I hope you're trolling or your ability to make any sort of claims go right out the fucking window.
You are definitely not making any sense here. Do you know what word instantaneously means? Maybe you meant something different but used a wrong word?
I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP.
I don't think you understand this from a Terran perspective. Making ghosts in TvZ is not a credible option, it's a fucking risk. You aren't guaranteed to EMP ANY infestors let alone kill them with ghosts. And to get all the upgrades necessary is a HUGE risk you are taking just to take care of infestors. Getting those ghosts leaves you in a do-or-die situation. You can get those magical EMPs that get EVERY SINGLE infestor, or you miss one or two and get steamrolled, because you spent your resources on those ghosts that could have gone to extra marines, marauders, medivacs, tanks, etc. And even if you EMP every infestor, that doesn't guarantee jack shit - he can still have more units than you because you stupidly spent all that money on ghosts.
You aren't talking from a perspective of a competent terran player, you are talking from a perspective a whiner and your claim is a blown out of proportion whine. I strongly believe you simply gave up on using ghosts after few fails when using them which were a result of mistakes or wrong conclusions on your part.
This beetlelisk guy is quite the character. Such theorycrafting is inane and simply trying to divert the attention that the actual problem that needs to be addressed. All of your questions have already been answered by progamers and higher league individuals, therefore I just don't understand your reason for continuing to grasp at straws.
Lol what questions and what answers? I believe to be the first to asking my questions so how can they already be answered? And how am I diverting the attention??? I am diving directly into specifics of the problem, am I not?
Most of your questions like getting ghosts to emp infestors and potential to use ravens in the TvZ mu are nonsensical. It's already been proven that it's gimmicky, not standard, and most importantly not very feasible to effectively use those units to their supposed maximum potential when they can be abused so easily.
I don't see using ghosts to be proven as impossible or "not feasible" in this thread, even though I asked for VODs or replays. I don't know how using Ravens against lings, banes and mutas is nonsensical as I don't believe they were ever used to do that, instead they were always used as anti brood lord weapon. We simply don't have the data to state that.
Ghosts are incredibly slow and emp is very hard to use on infestors when there are lings, banelings, and ultralisks in front of them. Even if you cloak, the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3 and then all your ghosts will be insta-killed because he'll know and fungal.
That's why I keep on saying to spread out ghosts. Also give me an example of "the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3" in the form of a VOD or a replay. And also by the time you have ghosts you sure do have medivacs so there is anything needed to bypass zerg fighting units and reach the infestors with EMPs, either by ground or air, in medivacs.
To tell us that we should split ghosts and take our time sniping all of your 8-10 infestors is fucking ridiculous.
I haven't ever said to snipe and I don't see how it's ridiculous.
Additionally, you're just relying on luck that he will keep all his infestors clumped together if you think you'll get them all the first round. Why must we rely on luck?
What luck are you talking about? It's only natural that they are clumped because units in SC2 naturally get clumped when being moved around. And Infestors are being clumped because good players keep them on a different hot key. Since so many people in this thread are completely missing the anti-caster role of the ghost I guess zergs don't really feel the need to spread out their infestors when there is not a single ghost on the field in most of their games, so they get used to it and never spread their Infestors.
All this proves is that Terran must play exponentially better than the Zerg,
You haven't proven anything.
[the Zerg] who is a moving with his army and keeping all his infestors together to mass fungal the terran's army. Why are we required to outplay Zerg by trying to emp all your infestors with 1-2 ghosts at a time, while keeping up with macro cycles, not getting supply blocked, making more buildings, expanding, etc?
This is ridiculous, it's like saying zerg doesn't have to do the same or even more in terms of expanding.
Granted, you're also doing the same, but imagine trying to use 1-2 burrowed infestors at a time to get rid of tank siege line positions. Do you understand why it's so illogical? Ravens are in a similar situation, when that even if they launch heat seeker missiles into groups of infestors and zerglings, because of the insanely slow speed of the HSM and of the raven, you'll be incredibly lucky to hit more than 1 if not 1.
That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away.
Then they'll just get fungaled and killed. Unless you ask we should do the same thing you suggested with the ghost. I already explained that above.The thing that is most important to note is that both of these spell casters for terran only have projectile spells that are slower than the other races' spells and are not cost efficient due to the fact that the apm required to skillfully and efficiently use them is just insane.
Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane.
It's also completely bullshit that people are commenting that terran should rely on ghosts and ravens more, but that's fucking stupid. Why must we rely entirely on these two spellcasters to win us the game?
I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier.
Terran is fundamentally different from Zerg and Protoss in that we can't make units instantaneously.
Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too.
Getting ravens and ghosts early for us doesn't help us, it fucking hurts us. We need those extra marines, marauders, medivacs, and vikings to fucking attack early like the retarded ass game designers at Blizzard want.
I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP.
Take a moment to understand this sentence: The longer the game goes on, the fucking harder it is for us to win.
There is nothing to understand, there is a lot to prove to be correct.
Why would I build such an expensive, slow unit that I have to upgrade the HSM and wait till it has 125 energy just to shot a HSM missle at the fastest unit in the game (lings) and banelings and mutas? There is no way that the HSM will hit lings, mutas, or bane before they die. There is also a delay on the animation before it starts accelerating and during this animation, the raven is unable to move and this is usually when they die. Dont forget that by firing your HSM close, it will also have the potetntial to kill the raven and without a high raven count....raven are not that good. It to much of a risk....it like saying, you should take your infestor and go infront of a marine bio army and then fungal them so they cant run away from you (a bit over exaggerated though)
The AOE on fungal is like 4-5 EMP. It is also instant.....pretty damn hard to split your ghost and from what i remember, fungal has a bigger range then emp too.
During the HSM animation of accelerating raven is unable to move? What are you talking about? HSM can't kill a raven because raven has 140 hit points and HSM deals up to 100 damage and raven by standing at the edge of explosion would definitely take way less damage.
The radius of fungal is 2 and EMP's is 1,5. This means aoe of fungal is less than 2 EMPs. I don't know what is hard about splitting 3 to 5 ghosts. EMP's range is 10, Fungal's is 9.
I'll bite on a few of those points.
I like working off empirical evidence, it's generally the best way to go. There are exceptions though, such as when one is unable to analyze said data. In this case, one needs to trust the people that are able to do so. If you analyze a replay of a pro and a pro analyzes the replay, I trust the pro. What you want to do is have pro players provide the replays they analyze for you to scrutinize. But people do not accept your ability to analyze them, and thus it does not make sense to ask that. In fact, it's somewhat insulting to question the analysis of a pro from your perspective. And this made people upset.
All I did was ask for replays, since that hasn't happened I wasn't able to disagree with a pro's or anybody's analysis.
Yet, here's something. Ravens were used in the games between Symbol and MKP, you could analyze those for us and see whether that creates discussion.
On another other point:
Ravens dying because they are immobile while they cast HSM - they do not die to the HSM itself, but get killed because they cannot run away from the Z forces about to kill them.
I'll leave the actual gameplay analysis to the many pros/better players than I.
If you could give me a link to the game I would be very grateful. The only thing used that can kill a raven in a tvz is corruptors and this means terran didn't have enough vikings to protect ravens.
edit: it's 2AM so I'm going to sleep, see you guys tomorrow.
There a small delay when the HSM come out of the Raven, the raven cant move. No zerg going to watch you fly your raven on top of his army with such a slow unit and let you do such thing. He can just magic box mutas and your raven useless. Going raven isnt a good idea in general because if they have infestor or mutas and you miss control them, then you just lost your raven count and then your pretty much screwed. Raven can be powerful if the number get high but any zerg with a brain will shut it down with ease. Watch MKP vs Symbol like someone said, it show how raven are kinda bad
I think zerg macro is really scary. I think the queen range buff is fine since winning tvz with some all in can be boring and just stupid. But Zerg could have some nerfs.. :D
1. Infestor fungal could use a nerf tbh. It's an all purpose spell that basically kills everything. If it immobilizes and damages the unit until 1 hp (but does not actually kill the unit), it would make more sense...
2. As mentioned in Genius' interview, spawning 3 larva with queen inject would be nice, but with an upgrade from evo chamber for the queen to spawn 5 larva (the default one now).
On June 20 2012 11:08 stalife wrote: I think zerg macro is really scary. I think the queen range buff is fine since winning tvz with some all in can be boring and just stupid. But Zerg could have some nerfs.. :D
1. Infestor fungal could use a nerf tbh. It's an all purpose spell that basically kills everything. If it immobilizes and damages the unit until 1 hp (but does not actually kill the unit), it would make more sense...
I think Terrans would be fine it it kills units and does the same damage, but just slows units down by the same magnitude as conc shells instead of immobilizing (50%). That way, players with good reaction times and micro can still spread their units and mitigate the followup fungals.
Edit: Or, keep the same damage and immobilization, but speed boosting abilities such as blink, stim, and charge can break the root (fungal still does the same DOT after being broken, of course). Btw, seems like it would be natural for a concept like this to appear in a post-WoW Blizzard game, since WoW was full of this kind of shit.
Zerg can't run away from Ravens forever, in fact it would silly to see whole zerg army running away after seeing like one incoming raven. You just agreed ravens have the power necessary to make them cost efficient, even taking into account the need to wait until 125 energy and 2 upgrades - energy and HSM. BTW who said it's the ravens that have to try to fly close enough? Zerg can also be the attacker and in that case units get close enough by themselves.
Did you really just say that? Did you really say that Zerg will eventually force a fight when it's known that Terran MUST be on the aggression to be equal to Zerg? How can you even say that if you play ZvT? I think you're ridiculous for thinking that a Zerg WOULDN'T run his army from HSM. But the thing is, they will You know why? From a competent Zerg standpoint, you will just get more bases and eventually just steamroll him. There's no need for a Zerg to attack. If you think a Zerg will attack with a "Fuck it" attitude into a terran army with a group of ravens over it, you are either playing at Bronze level or fucking retarded. When the hell did I agree ravens have the potential to be cost efficient? Are you twisting my words?
I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period.
The point I was trying to make might be hard for a Zerg player to understand how hard it is to actually get perfect EMPs, but I'll try. When you are trying to EMP units, your ghosts and his energy units are constantly moving around. As you select a spot to EMP, your enemy units are still moving. What you have to do is guess where his moving units will go and EMP that location, because the EMP is a fucking projectile.Because EMP is a projectile, you have a delay from the time you select the area to be EMP'd and the EMP itself. It's hard to explain to a Zerg who gets EZPZ instant fungal hits. I recommend you try EMPing something on the unit tester and you'll understand what I mean. Oh, and your advice is absolute dog shit. It doesn't even make sense. It's like me telling you to use overlords to place infestors in strategic locations where the Terran army is not at so you can get fungals. No, fuck you. It shouldn't be that much more harder for us just to have a CHANCE at EMPing your infestors while you just drag your infestors along behind your army. I'm just astonished at how stupidly you're trying to make ghosts look effective in TvZ. Ghosts aren't anti-spellcaster units. They ARE spellcaster units, holy shit. How fucking stupid would it be if the only use for ghosts is a counter. They should have an offensive capability, because they are FUCKING SPELLCASTERS LIKE YOUR INFESTORS. Jesus.
You are definitely not making any sense here. Do you know what word instantaneously means? Maybe you meant something different but used a wrong word?
I was hoping you wouldn't take it literally, but to many Terrans, Zerg and Protoss macro seems pretty instantaneous compared to our macro. I also guess you don't know what a hyperbole is. For Protoss, you can warp in x amount of units for x amount of warp gates almost instantly. ANYWHERE you have a pylon. Fucking anywhere. For Zerg, you can click sz on your hatcheries and hold it down for 3 seconds. Then u get x amount of larva used times 2 amount of zerglings instantly once they hatch. For us, they pop out one at a time from the barracks, factory, starport, or command center. One. at a fucking time.
You aren't talking from a perspective of a competent terran player, you are talking from a perspective a whiner and your claim is a blown out of proportion whine. I strongly believe you simply gave up on using ghosts after few fails when using them which were a result of mistakes or wrong conclusions on your part.
Do you see how your confirmation bias already makes all my points invalid to you? You think I'm just whining when I'm explaining to you the flaws in your opinions and suggestions. Why do you not even consider to take in what I say and just regurgitate your shit that every single person in this thread is saying "shut the fuck up" to? Why can't you even consider to see this from the Terran perspective instead of the Zerg's? I know you don't want to get nerfed or Terran to get buffed, but the things you say just make you sound fucking ignorant. And also, even though you ask for vods while ignoring the opinions of all pros who SAY that TvZ is imbalanced, why do you try to pin an anecdotal accusation in my face? Why do you care about my experiences in failure when you ignore the anecdotal opinions of so many more qualified progamers? Why are you such a fucking hypocrite? And fyi, you aren't even Terran. Please don't talk to me about taking it from a "competent terran's perspective" when you aren't even trying to see it from our perspective. I'd think you'd say the same thing if I did it to you about Zerg.
All that being said, Terran players have a right to bitch,moan, and complain about until this shit gets fixed. Protoss did it, Zerg certainly did it, and we sure as fucking hell should be able to as well without getting a backlash from the other races saying that the game is balanced and there should be no buffs or nerfs. Fuck that mentality. Change is progress and inevitable like you said. Terran players have been trying much harder than Zerg or Protoss to find new ingenious ways to play because of everything that happened. And yet you still have the balls to bitch about us bitching. This game is still a balance in progress. Like you said, change is inevitable.
and dont forget the other shit use of OP infestors, ''terran having siege tanks ? NP im just gona burrow my infestors and drop shit loads of infested terrans around em and then im gona A=move my maggot army in and fap while i see terran's army melting'' (im terran btw )
Marineking 2:1 YuGiOh--YuGiOh wins only with a bane bust when MarineKing didnt have a simcity wall? wtf? MarineKing against Symbol --> Use of Ravens in game 1 by MarineKing... I think it has tons of potential to rape zerg armies. Thors also do very well against Broods AND Ultralisks instead of Tanks and don't need to be sieged. TvZ isn't dead, bro.
Assuming for the sake of argument there's a genuine problem, I can't be the only one to have seen this coming a mile away. It's an inevitable consequence of Zerg's weird racial design.
Think about how the value of investing into economy, tech and army varies over the course of a game and in different situations. What does Zerg's graph look like? Everything except economy is really, really poor value for money for a lot longer than with the other two races and in many more situations, right? So Zergs always need to be able to invest in economy regardless of which option their opponents choose.
How can they survive to do this? It can't really be lings because lings have had to be weakened to compensate for the larva mechanic. It can't be gas units because that precludes investing in economy. It can only be queens, spine and spore crawlers. And that's exactly where we've ended up: all Zergs need to make is queens and spines because that's all they can reasonably be expected to make because everything else is a terrible investment.
Nor is HotS going to fix anything. Zerg still won't have anything worth teching to on less than three bases or any units worth building early on. They'll still need to survive using queens and spines.
Zerg can't run away from Ravens forever, in fact it would silly to see whole zerg army running away after seeing like one incoming raven. You just agreed ravens have the power necessary to make them cost efficient, even taking into account the need to wait until 125 energy and 2 upgrades - energy and HSM. BTW who said it's the ravens that have to try to fly close enough? Zerg can also be the attacker and in that case units get close enough by themselves.
Did you really just say that? Did you really say that Zerg will eventually force a fight when it's known that Terran MUST be on the aggression to be equal to Zerg? How can you even say that if you play ZvT? I think you're ridiculous for thinking that a Zerg WOULDN'T run his army from HSM. But the thing is, they will You know why? From a competent Zerg standpoint, you will just get more bases and eventually just steamroll him. There's no need for a Zerg to attack. If you think a Zerg will attack with a "Fuck it" attitude into a terran army with a group of ravens over it, you are either playing at Bronze level or fucking retarded. When the hell did I agree ravens have the potential to be cost efficient? Are you twisting my words?
You contradict yourself multiple times. 1st of all you say that I am ridiculous for thinking that zerg wouldn't run away from HSM and yet you deny the fact that would mean that ravens are cost efficient. When you are saying zerg has to run from HSM you are basically saying ravens are good enough. If terran must be on the aggression and yet zerg runs away from ravens then terran is free to do whatever he wants - make more expansions himself to be on equal or better economical footing with zerg and/or kill zerg bases. Terran has to be aggressive only in early and mid game, later the winner is the one who wins engagements and has better economy.
I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period.
The point I was trying to make might be hard for a Zerg player to understand how hard it is to actually get perfect EMPs, but I'll try. When you are trying to EMP units, your ghosts and his energy units are constantly moving around. As you select a spot to EMP, your enemy units are still moving. What you have to do is guess where his moving units will go and EMP that location, because the EMP is a fucking projectile.Because EMP is a projectile, you have a delay from the time you select the area to be EMP'd and the EMP itself. It's hard to explain to a Zerg who gets EZPZ instant fungal hits. I recommend you try EMPing something on the unit tester and you'll understand what I mean. Oh, and your advice is absolute dog shit. It doesn't even make sense. It's like me telling you to use overlords to place infestors in strategic locations where the Terran army is not at so you can get fungals. No, fuck you. It shouldn't be that much more harder for us just to have a CHANCE at EMPing your infestors while you just drag your infestors along behind your army. I'm just astonished at how stupidly you're trying to make ghosts look effective in TvZ. Ghosts aren't anti-spellcaster units. They ARE spellcaster units, holy shit. How fucking stupid would it be if the only use for ghosts is a counter. They should have an offensive capability, because they are FUCKING SPELLCASTERS LIKE YOUR INFESTORS. Jesus.
Ghost sight range is 11, EMP range is 10 which means you are talking nonsense because as soon as terran sees spellcaster units he gets ready to EMP and after about one second of a ghost moving closer to the targets there is no need to guess where those targeted spellcasters will move, EMP hits split second later after an order to do it. For the sake of trying to be right you are talking nonsense again by giving examples from a zerg stand point that completely miss the meaning of what I wrote. Zerg drags infestors along behind his army? Move the ghosts behind the zerg army where the infestors are, move them around and use medivacs in case of terrain, like cliffs, blocking the path. There is nothing hard about doing this. Ghosts are anti spellcaster spellcasters, the nature of EMP and snipe explains it more than enough. You are talking nonsense yet again - they are spellcasters but "they should have an offensive capability"? If so then what are they exactly, placeholder units for something better because blizz is retarded?
You are definitely not making any sense here. Do you know what word instantaneously means? Maybe you meant something different but used a wrong word?
I was hoping you wouldn't take it literally, but to many Terrans, Zerg and Protoss macro seems pretty instantaneous compared to our macro. I also guess you don't know what a hyperbole is. For Protoss, you can warp in x amount of units for x amount of warp gates almost instantly. ANYWHERE you have a pylon. Fucking anywhere. For Zerg, you can click sz on your hatcheries and hold it down for 3 seconds. Then u get x amount of larva used times 2 amount of zerglings instantly once they hatch. For us, they pop out one at a time from the barracks, factory, starport, or command center. One. at a fucking time.
Yep, you are talking nonsense again and you don't know what word instantaneously means. Saying a unit is made instantaneously would mean it takes less than 5 seconds for the unit to be done after issuing an order to make the unit. Saying "instantly once they hatch" doesn't make any sense. The closest to making units instantly is only warping warp gate units. And BTW you can also hold down the hot key for any terran unit and instantaneously queue of production facility is filled with units or in the case of more production facilities all of them are ordered to make such a unit. The only difference is for zerg the units spawn from larvae, for terran they come from buildings.
You aren't talking from a perspective of a competent terran player, you are talking from a perspective a whiner and your claim is a blown out of proportion whine. I strongly believe you simply gave up on using ghosts after few fails when using them which were a result of mistakes or wrong conclusions on your part.
Do you see how your confirmation bias already makes all my points invalid to you? You think I'm just whining when I'm explaining to you the flaws in your opinions and suggestions. Why do you not even consider to take in what I say and just regurgitate your shit that every single person in this thread is saying "shut the fuck up" to? Why can't you even consider to see this from the Terran perspective instead of the Zerg's? I know you don't want to get nerfed or Terran to get buffed, but the things you say just make you sound fucking ignorant. And also, even though you ask for vods while ignoring the opinions of all pros who SAY that TvZ is imbalanced, why do you try to pin an anecdotal accusation in my face? Why do you care about my experiences in failure when you ignore the anecdotal opinions of so many more qualified progamers? Why are you such a fucking hypocrite? And fyi, you aren't even Terran. Please don't talk to me about taking it from a "competent terran's perspective" when you aren't even trying to see it from our perspective. I'd think you'd say the same thing if I did it to you about Zerg.
No, it's your bias that form whines, it's not even close to explaining why am I wrong. I didn't tell anyone to "shut the fuck up", likewise no one told me to do it. Yes, I definitely can't see this from a perspective of a whiner who can't use his brain to move his ghosts around instead of clinging helplessly to blob army mentality which makes him aggressively attack any suggestion to separate any unit from his army in order to gain tactical advantage. I have confidence in and I always support blizz devs buffing or nerfing anything but my mentality is to constantly seek solution until that happens. I'd like to remind you that we keep on talking about the ghost usage which is only a part and not entire TvZ problem. This means I am not disregarding the entirety of pro opinions, I didn't even quote majority of terran pros who posted in this thread. I don't see anything wrong in asking for VODs or replays, like I said if the problem is as prevalent as people here describe it then it should not be a problem to give examples. Your opinions come from you personal experience and only failures accompanied by ignorance to strive to perform better can explain your approach. The only anecdotal opinion on the topic at hand (using ghosts against infestors) came from KawaiiRice and for some reason he is disinterested at showing how exactly it looked like which is a shame and what I don't understand. No, you are a hypocrite. By trying to see it from your perspective you mean people unwilling to do any change at their own and just waiting for higher power to change things, so yes I will never look at the problem of ghost from your perspective.
All that being said, Terran players have a right to bitch,moan, and complain about until this shit gets fixed. Protoss did it, Zerg certainly did it, and we sure as fucking hell should be able to as well without getting a backlash from the other races saying that the game is balanced and there should be no buffs or nerfs. Fuck that mentality. Change is progress and inevitable like you said. Terran players have been trying much harder than Zerg or Protoss to find new ingenious ways to play because of everything that happened. And yet you still have the balls to bitch about us bitching. This game is still a balance in progress. Like you said, change is inevitable.
I definitely don't think I am bitching about you bitching, perhaps if you will write your next posts in the same manner I will start to bitch. If Blizzard decides there is a need for buffs and/or nerfs then so be it. Era of terran dominance was definitely longer than current era of protoss and zerg dominance so you have no right to say that "terran players have been trying much harder than Zerg or Protoss to find new ingenious ways to play because of everything that happened".
You aren't explaining what parts are unreasonable. Just because you don't agree does not make what I said wrong. Also, I'm low masters, no I'm not a complete idiot. Get of your TL "I'm anonymously better than you" high-horse please.
Low masters is total scrub league compared to the calibur of play thats being discussed. When did I ever say that I am better than you ? Nowhere. The only thing I pointed out was that you have no idea what you are talking about, and it is laughable that you would even comment on what code S players have to say about the matchup. Especially when you do so in such a manner that implies you have some insight into it that they themselves have not considered/tried before.
I'm not going to go through and highlight your idiocy piece by piece just so that you can form some circular arguement that goes nowhere. You kind of proved my point when you cited being low masters as some sort of validation to your ramblings.
What a great discussion thread. I'm happy some of us know what the true problem is: low-masters players on TL.
You contradict yourself multiple times. 1st of all you say that I am ridiculous for thinking that zerg wouldn't run away from HSM and yet you deny the fact that would mean that ravens are cost efficient. When you are saying zerg has to run from HSM you are basically saying ravens are good enough. If terran must be on the aggression and yet zerg runs away from ravens then terran is free to do whatever he wants - make more expansions himself to be on equal or better economical footing with zerg and/or kill zerg bases. Terran has to be aggressive only in early and mid game, later the winner is the one who wins engagements and has better economy.
Yes, a Zerg player would run away from HSM. It's common sense, that you would move your army away from the missile, until it runs out of gas thus effectively wasting the energy of the ravens. I don't think you understand what cost efficient means. If you think 100/200 per raven as well as 300/300 for research, simply to make your enemy move a few meters away is cost efficient you don't know what you're talking about.
i.e using 10 marines to kill 5 sentries is cost efficient.
I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period.
There actually is a delay for when the EMP hits. The infestor is not a slow unit. A competent zerg always has his infestors tucked behind his army. Your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic unless your opponent has terrible unit control.
Ghost sight range is 11, EMP range is 10 which means you are talking nonsense because as soon as terran sees spellcaster units he gets ready to EMP and after about one second of a ghost moving closer to the targets there is no need to guess where those targeted spellcasters will move, EMP hits split second later after an order to do it. For the sake of trying to be right you are talking nonsense again by giving examples from a zerg stand point that completely miss the meaning of what I wrote. Zerg drags infestors along behind his army? Move the ghosts behind the zerg army where the infestors are, move them around and use medivacs in case of terrain, like cliffs, blocking the path. There is nothing hard about doing this. Ghosts are anti spellcaster spellcasters, the nature of EMP and snipe explains it more than enough. You are talking nonsense yet again - they are spellcasters but "they should have an offensive capability"? If so then what are they exactly, placeholder units for something better because blizz is retarded?
There actually is something hard about this. You aren't factoring the amount of micro and multitask required to control two areas. It's not the same as dropping a base. Microing your army away from infestors, while trying to emp them at the same time? It's not difficult for a zerg player to simply fungal medivac they see near their army, not to mention you can't unload or reload units when a medivac is fungaled. Once again your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic. Terran players aren't incompetent like you're trying to make them out to be.
There are tons of Terran players out there with amazing multitask and micro, yet they don't bother with what you're saying for good reason.
Yep, you are talking nonsense again and you don't know what word instantaneously means. Saying a unit is made instantaneously would mean it takes less than 5 seconds for the unit to be done after issuing an order to make the unit. Saying "instantly once they hatch" doesn't make any sense. The closest to making units instantly is only warping warp gate units. And BTW you can also hold down the hot key for any terran unit and instantaneously queue of production facility is filled with units or in the case of more production facilities all of them are ordered to make such a unit. The only difference is for zerg the units spawn from larvae, for terran they come from buildings.
Yes he is wrong with the context in which he used instanteous, however let me clarify what I believe he was trying to say. The production cycle can start immediately as zerg can instantly create eggs, however there is still a timer for when the units hatch.
No, it's your bias that form whines, it's not even close to explaining why am I wrong. I didn't tell anyone to "shut the fuck up", likewise no one told me to do it. Yes, I definitely can't see this from a perspective of a whiner who can't use his brain to move his ghosts around instead of clinging helplessly to blob army mentality which makes him aggressively attack any suggestion to separate any unit from his army in order to gain tactical advantage. I have confidence in and I always support blizz devs buffing or nerfing anything but my mentality is to constantly seek solution until that happens. I'd like to remind you that we keep on talking about the ghost usage which is only a part and not entire TvZ problem. This means I am not disregarding the entirety of pro opinions, I didn't even quote majority of terran pros who posted in this thread. I don't see anything wrong in asking for VODs or replays, like I said if the problem is as prevalent as people here describe it then it should not be a problem to give examples. Your opinions come from you personal experience and only failures accompanied by ignorance to strive to perform better can explain your approach. The only anecdotal opinion on the topic at hand (using ghosts against infestors) came from KawaiiRice and for some reason he is disinterested at showing how exactly it looked like which is a shame and what I don't understand. No, you are a hypocrite. By trying to see it from your perspective you mean people unwilling to do any change at their own and just waiting for higher power to change things, so yes I will never look at the problem of ghost from your perspective.
You are correct. The fact of the matter is you don't understand how the terran race works, nor do you understand the mechanics, yet you are trying to debate with someone who is obviously flustered with the current state of TvZ and he is simply mad because you don't understand where he is coming from, hence why his posts have changed tune and become more aggressive.
I mean, telling people they aren't willing to change? The vast majority of pros here have been stating their opinions on how Ravens don't cut it, and you are still adamant about proving them wrong. You not seeing how big of a change the queen buff is to the match-up just goes to show how little you know about TvZ on the terran side of things.
I definitely don't think I am bitching about you bitching, perhaps if you will write your next posts in the same manner I will start to bitch. If Blizzard decides there is a need for buffs and/or nerfs then so be it. Era of terran dominance was definitely longer than current era of protoss and zerg dominance so you have no right to say that "terran players have been trying much harder than Zerg or Protoss to find new ingenious ways to play because of everything that happened".
So because Terran was overpowered for a long period of time, it means it's okay for Zerg and Protoss to be overpowered as well. I'm not sure if you know this, but in WC3 the same balance issues applied. One race would be overpowered for a while, then another and so on.
I suppose you won't mind if Terran becomes overpowered again over a short while? I don't understand how you can even say something like that, and be expected to be taken seriously. Educate yourself.
I don't give a fuck anymore. Someone take over for me debating with beetlelisk. Thanks KonohaFlash. And I was wrong in the context of which I used the word "instantaneously". But that doesn't really have anything to do with the conversation.
You contradict yourself multiple times. 1st of all you say that I am ridiculous for thinking that zerg wouldn't run away from HSM and yet you deny the fact that would mean that ravens are cost efficient. When you are saying zerg has to run from HSM you are basically saying ravens are good enough. If terran must be on the aggression and yet zerg runs away from ravens then terran is free to do whatever he wants - make more expansions himself to be on equal or better economical footing with zerg and/or kill zerg bases. Terran has to be aggressive only in early and mid game, later the winner is the one who wins engagements and has better economy.
Yes, a Zerg player would run away from HSM. It's common sense, that you would move your army away from the missile, until it runs out of gas thus effectively wasting the energy of the ravens. I don't think you understand what cost efficient means. If you think 100/200 per raven as well as 300/300 for research, simply to make your enemy move a few meters away is cost efficient you don't know what you're talking about.
i.e using 10 marines to kill 5 sentries is cost efficient.
I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast. It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost.
I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period.
There actually is a delay for when the EMP hits. The infestor is not a slow unit. A competent zerg always has his infestors tucked behind his army. Your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic unless your opponent has terrible unit control.
Ghost sight range is 11, EMP range is 10 which means you are talking nonsense because as soon as terran sees spellcaster units he gets ready to EMP and after about one second of a ghost moving closer to the targets there is no need to guess where those targeted spellcasters will move, EMP hits split second later after an order to do it. For the sake of trying to be right you are talking nonsense again by giving examples from a zerg stand point that completely miss the meaning of what I wrote. Zerg drags infestors along behind his army? Move the ghosts behind the zerg army where the infestors are, move them around and use medivacs in case of terrain, like cliffs, blocking the path. There is nothing hard about doing this. Ghosts are anti spellcaster spellcasters, the nature of EMP and snipe explains it more than enough. You are talking nonsense yet again - they are spellcasters but "they should have an offensive capability"? If so then what are they exactly, placeholder units for something better because blizz is retarded?
There actually is something hard about this. You aren't factoring the amount of micro and multitask required to control two areas. It's not the same as dropping a base. Microing your army away from infestors, while trying to emp them at the same time? It's not difficult for a zerg player to simply fungal medivac they see near their army, not to mention you can't unload or reload units when a medivac is fungaled. Once again your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic. Terran players aren't incompetent like you're trying to make them out to be.
There are tons of Terran players out there with amazing multitask and micro, yet they don't bother with what you're saying for good reason.
Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight. You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled. This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality. The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this.
Yep, you are talking nonsense again and you don't know what word instantaneously means. Saying a unit is made instantaneously would mean it takes less than 5 seconds for the unit to be done after issuing an order to make the unit. Saying "instantly once they hatch" doesn't make any sense. The closest to making units instantly is only warping warp gate units. And BTW you can also hold down the hot key for any terran unit and instantaneously queue of production facility is filled with units or in the case of more production facilities all of them are ordered to make such a unit. The only difference is for zerg the units spawn from larvae, for terran they come from buildings.
Yes he is wrong with the context in which he used instanteous, however let me clarify what I believe he was trying to say. The production cycle can start immediately as zerg can instantly create eggs, however there is still a timer for when the units hatch.
Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races.
No, it's your bias that form whines, it's not even close to explaining why am I wrong. I didn't tell anyone to "shut the fuck up", likewise no one told me to do it. Yes, I definitely can't see this from a perspective of a whiner who can't use his brain to move his ghosts around instead of clinging helplessly to blob army mentality which makes him aggressively attack any suggestion to separate any unit from his army in order to gain tactical advantage. I have confidence in and I always support blizz devs buffing or nerfing anything but my mentality is to constantly seek solution until that happens. I'd like to remind you that we keep on talking about the ghost usage which is only a part and not entire TvZ problem. This means I am not disregarding the entirety of pro opinions, I didn't even quote majority of terran pros who posted in this thread. I don't see anything wrong in asking for VODs or replays, like I said if the problem is as prevalent as people here describe it then it should not be a problem to give examples. Your opinions come from you personal experience and only failures accompanied by ignorance to strive to perform better can explain your approach. The only anecdotal opinion on the topic at hand (using ghosts against infestors) came from KawaiiRice and for some reason he is disinterested at showing how exactly it looked like which is a shame and what I don't understand. No, you are a hypocrite. By trying to see it from your perspective you mean people unwilling to do any change at their own and just waiting for higher power to change things, so yes I will never look at the problem of ghost from your perspective.
You are correct. The fact of the matter is you don't understand how the terran race works, nor do you understand the mechanics, yet you are trying to debate with someone who is obviously flustered with the current state of TvZ and he is simply mad because you don't understand where he is coming from, hence why his posts have changed tune and become more aggressive.
I mean, telling people they aren't willing to change? The vast majority of pros here have been stating their opinions on how Ravens don't cut it, and you are still adamant about proving them wrong. You not seeing how big of a change the queen buff is to the match-up just goes to show how little you know about TvZ on the terran side of things.
Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted. I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore.
I definitely don't think I am bitching about you bitching, perhaps if you will write your next posts in the same manner I will start to bitch. If Blizzard decides there is a need for buffs and/or nerfs then so be it. Era of terran dominance was definitely longer than current era of protoss and zerg dominance so you have no right to say that "terran players have been trying much harder than Zerg or Protoss to find new ingenious ways to play because of everything that happened".
So because Terran was overpowered for a long period of time, it means it's okay for Zerg and Protoss to be overpowered as well. I'm not sure if you know this, but in WC3 the same balance issues applied. One race would be overpowered for a while, then another and so on.
I suppose you won't mind if Terran becomes overpowered again over a short while? I don't understand how you can even say something like that, and be expected to be taken seriously. Educate yourself.
LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered?
It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen. My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
On June 21 2012 06:17 EienShinwa wrote: I don't give a fuck anymore. Someone take over for me debating with beetlelisk. Thanks KonohaFlash. And I was wrong in the context of which I used the word "instantaneously". But that doesn't really have anything to do with the conversation.
You contradict yourself multiple times. 1st of all you say that I am ridiculous for thinking that zerg wouldn't run away from HSM and yet you deny the fact that would mean that ravens are cost efficient. When you are saying zerg has to run from HSM you are basically saying ravens are good enough. If terran must be on the aggression and yet zerg runs away from ravens then terran is free to do whatever he wants - make more expansions himself to be on equal or better economical footing with zerg and/or kill zerg bases. Terran has to be aggressive only in early and mid game, later the winner is the one who wins engagements and has better economy.
Yes, a Zerg player would run away from HSM. It's common sense, that you would move your army away from the missile, until it runs out of gas thus effectively wasting the energy of the ravens. I don't think you understand what cost efficient means. If you think 100/200 per raven as well as 300/300 for research, simply to make your enemy move a few meters away is cost efficient you don't know what you're talking about.
i.e using 10 marines to kill 5 sentries is cost efficient.
I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast. It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost.
I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period.
There actually is a delay for when the EMP hits. The infestor is not a slow unit. A competent zerg always has his infestors tucked behind his army. Your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic unless your opponent has terrible unit control.
Ghost sight range is 11, EMP range is 10 which means you are talking nonsense because as soon as terran sees spellcaster units he gets ready to EMP and after about one second of a ghost moving closer to the targets there is no need to guess where those targeted spellcasters will move, EMP hits split second later after an order to do it. For the sake of trying to be right you are talking nonsense again by giving examples from a zerg stand point that completely miss the meaning of what I wrote. Zerg drags infestors along behind his army? Move the ghosts behind the zerg army where the infestors are, move them around and use medivacs in case of terrain, like cliffs, blocking the path. There is nothing hard about doing this. Ghosts are anti spellcaster spellcasters, the nature of EMP and snipe explains it more than enough. You are talking nonsense yet again - they are spellcasters but "they should have an offensive capability"? If so then what are they exactly, placeholder units for something better because blizz is retarded?
There actually is something hard about this. You aren't factoring the amount of micro and multitask required to control two areas. It's not the same as dropping a base. Microing your army away from infestors, while trying to emp them at the same time? It's not difficult for a zerg player to simply fungal medivac they see near their army, not to mention you can't unload or reload units when a medivac is fungaled. Once again your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic. Terran players aren't incompetent like you're trying to make them out to be.
There are tons of Terran players out there with amazing multitask and micro, yet they don't bother with what you're saying for good reason.
Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight. You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled. This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality. The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this.
Yep, you are talking nonsense again and you don't know what word instantaneously means. Saying a unit is made instantaneously would mean it takes less than 5 seconds for the unit to be done after issuing an order to make the unit. Saying "instantly once they hatch" doesn't make any sense. The closest to making units instantly is only warping warp gate units. And BTW you can also hold down the hot key for any terran unit and instantaneously queue of production facility is filled with units or in the case of more production facilities all of them are ordered to make such a unit. The only difference is for zerg the units spawn from larvae, for terran they come from buildings.
Yes he is wrong with the context in which he used instanteous, however let me clarify what I believe he was trying to say. The production cycle can start immediately as zerg can instantly create eggs, however there is still a timer for when the units hatch.
Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races.
No, it's your bias that form whines, it's not even close to explaining why am I wrong. I didn't tell anyone to "shut the fuck up", likewise no one told me to do it. Yes, I definitely can't see this from a perspective of a whiner who can't use his brain to move his ghosts around instead of clinging helplessly to blob army mentality which makes him aggressively attack any suggestion to separate any unit from his army in order to gain tactical advantage. I have confidence in and I always support blizz devs buffing or nerfing anything but my mentality is to constantly seek solution until that happens. I'd like to remind you that we keep on talking about the ghost usage which is only a part and not entire TvZ problem. This means I am not disregarding the entirety of pro opinions, I didn't even quote majority of terran pros who posted in this thread. I don't see anything wrong in asking for VODs or replays, like I said if the problem is as prevalent as people here describe it then it should not be a problem to give examples. Your opinions come from you personal experience and only failures accompanied by ignorance to strive to perform better can explain your approach. The only anecdotal opinion on the topic at hand (using ghosts against infestors) came from KawaiiRice and for some reason he is disinterested at showing how exactly it looked like which is a shame and what I don't understand. No, you are a hypocrite. By trying to see it from your perspective you mean people unwilling to do any change at their own and just waiting for higher power to change things, so yes I will never look at the problem of ghost from your perspective.
You are correct. The fact of the matter is you don't understand how the terran race works, nor do you understand the mechanics, yet you are trying to debate with someone who is obviously flustered with the current state of TvZ and he is simply mad because you don't understand where he is coming from, hence why his posts have changed tune and become more aggressive.
I mean, telling people they aren't willing to change? The vast majority of pros here have been stating their opinions on how Ravens don't cut it, and you are still adamant about proving them wrong. You not seeing how big of a change the queen buff is to the match-up just goes to show how little you know about TvZ on the terran side of things.
Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted. I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore.
I definitely don't think I am bitching about you bitching, perhaps if you will write your next posts in the same manner I will start to bitch. If Blizzard decides there is a need for buffs and/or nerfs then so be it. Era of terran dominance was definitely longer than current era of protoss and zerg dominance so you have no right to say that "terran players have been trying much harder than Zerg or Protoss to find new ingenious ways to play because of everything that happened".
So because Terran was overpowered for a long period of time, it means it's okay for Zerg and Protoss to be overpowered as well. I'm not sure if you know this, but in WC3 the same balance issues applied. One race would be overpowered for a while, then another and so on.
I suppose you won't mind if Terran becomes overpowered again over a short while? I don't understand how you can even say something like that, and be expected to be taken seriously. Educate yourself.
LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered?
It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen. My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
I'm glad that you're trying to find solutions here, but really, they're rather ridiculous. Sacrificing a raven to, if zerg isn't having a brain aneurysm, to bring a broodlord or two down to half health seems rather silly. Same thing for your medivac infestor idea. It might work in a sandbox/perfect world, but it won't work in an actual game. If Zerg just f-clicks your medivac instead of move commanding into range, only 1 infestor will go in range to fungal. Congrats, now you just lost a medivac and several ghosts for nothing. Not only that, ghosts won't help you do shit in an actual battle beyond "Holy shit I hope he's bad and doesn't know what spreading is."
You contradict yourself multiple times. 1st of all you say that I am ridiculous for thinking that zerg wouldn't run away from HSM and yet you deny the fact that would mean that ravens are cost efficient. When you are saying zerg has to run from HSM you are basically saying ravens are good enough. If terran must be on the aggression and yet zerg runs away from ravens then terran is free to do whatever he wants - make more expansions himself to be on equal or better economical footing with zerg and/or kill zerg bases. Terran has to be aggressive only in early and mid game, later the winner is the one who wins engagements and has better economy.
Yes, a Zerg player would run away from HSM. It's common sense, that you would move your army away from the missile, until it runs out of gas thus effectively wasting the energy of the ravens. I don't think you understand what cost efficient means. If you think 100/200 per raven as well as 300/300 for research, simply to make your enemy move a few meters away is cost efficient you don't know what you're talking about.
i.e using 10 marines to kill 5 sentries is cost efficient.
I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast. It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost.
I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period.
There actually is a delay for when the EMP hits. The infestor is not a slow unit. A competent zerg always has his infestors tucked behind his army. Your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic unless your opponent has terrible unit control.
Ghost sight range is 11, EMP range is 10 which means you are talking nonsense because as soon as terran sees spellcaster units he gets ready to EMP and after about one second of a ghost moving closer to the targets there is no need to guess where those targeted spellcasters will move, EMP hits split second later after an order to do it. For the sake of trying to be right you are talking nonsense again by giving examples from a zerg stand point that completely miss the meaning of what I wrote. Zerg drags infestors along behind his army? Move the ghosts behind the zerg army where the infestors are, move them around and use medivacs in case of terrain, like cliffs, blocking the path. There is nothing hard about doing this. Ghosts are anti spellcaster spellcasters, the nature of EMP and snipe explains it more than enough. You are talking nonsense yet again - they are spellcasters but "they should have an offensive capability"? If so then what are they exactly, placeholder units for something better because blizz is retarded?
There actually is something hard about this. You aren't factoring the amount of micro and multitask required to control two areas. It's not the same as dropping a base. Microing your army away from infestors, while trying to emp them at the same time? It's not difficult for a zerg player to simply fungal medivac they see near their army, not to mention you can't unload or reload units when a medivac is fungaled. Once again your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic. Terran players aren't incompetent like you're trying to make them out to be.
There are tons of Terran players out there with amazing multitask and micro, yet they don't bother with what you're saying for good reason.
Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight. You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled. This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality. The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this.
Yep, you are talking nonsense again and you don't know what word instantaneously means. Saying a unit is made instantaneously would mean it takes less than 5 seconds for the unit to be done after issuing an order to make the unit. Saying "instantly once they hatch" doesn't make any sense. The closest to making units instantly is only warping warp gate units. And BTW you can also hold down the hot key for any terran unit and instantaneously queue of production facility is filled with units or in the case of more production facilities all of them are ordered to make such a unit. The only difference is for zerg the units spawn from larvae, for terran they come from buildings.
Yes he is wrong with the context in which he used instanteous, however let me clarify what I believe he was trying to say. The production cycle can start immediately as zerg can instantly create eggs, however there is still a timer for when the units hatch.
Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races.
No, it's your bias that form whines, it's not even close to explaining why am I wrong. I didn't tell anyone to "shut the fuck up", likewise no one told me to do it. Yes, I definitely can't see this from a perspective of a whiner who can't use his brain to move his ghosts around instead of clinging helplessly to blob army mentality which makes him aggressively attack any suggestion to separate any unit from his army in order to gain tactical advantage. I have confidence in and I always support blizz devs buffing or nerfing anything but my mentality is to constantly seek solution until that happens. I'd like to remind you that we keep on talking about the ghost usage which is only a part and not entire TvZ problem. This means I am not disregarding the entirety of pro opinions, I didn't even quote majority of terran pros who posted in this thread. I don't see anything wrong in asking for VODs or replays, like I said if the problem is as prevalent as people here describe it then it should not be a problem to give examples. Your opinions come from you personal experience and only failures accompanied by ignorance to strive to perform better can explain your approach. The only anecdotal opinion on the topic at hand (using ghosts against infestors) came from KawaiiRice and for some reason he is disinterested at showing how exactly it looked like which is a shame and what I don't understand. No, you are a hypocrite. By trying to see it from your perspective you mean people unwilling to do any change at their own and just waiting for higher power to change things, so yes I will never look at the problem of ghost from your perspective.
You are correct. The fact of the matter is you don't understand how the terran race works, nor do you understand the mechanics, yet you are trying to debate with someone who is obviously flustered with the current state of TvZ and he is simply mad because you don't understand where he is coming from, hence why his posts have changed tune and become more aggressive.
I mean, telling people they aren't willing to change? The vast majority of pros here have been stating their opinions on how Ravens don't cut it, and you are still adamant about proving them wrong. You not seeing how big of a change the queen buff is to the match-up just goes to show how little you know about TvZ on the terran side of things.
Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted. I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore.
I definitely don't think I am bitching about you bitching, perhaps if you will write your next posts in the same manner I will start to bitch. If Blizzard decides there is a need for buffs and/or nerfs then so be it. Era of terran dominance was definitely longer than current era of protoss and zerg dominance so you have no right to say that "terran players have been trying much harder than Zerg or Protoss to find new ingenious ways to play because of everything that happened".
So because Terran was overpowered for a long period of time, it means it's okay for Zerg and Protoss to be overpowered as well. I'm not sure if you know this, but in WC3 the same balance issues applied. One race would be overpowered for a while, then another and so on.
I suppose you won't mind if Terran becomes overpowered again over a short while? I don't understand how you can even say something like that, and be expected to be taken seriously. Educate yourself.
LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered?
It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen. My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
rofl@EMP before the fight. Are you kidding me? I didn't know it was that simple. Damn what valuable insight, I guess everyone who has ever played terran just completely disregarded EMPing everything before the fight.
You contradict yourself multiple times. 1st of all you say that I am ridiculous for thinking that zerg wouldn't run away from HSM and yet you deny the fact that would mean that ravens are cost efficient. When you are saying zerg has to run from HSM you are basically saying ravens are good enough. If terran must be on the aggression and yet zerg runs away from ravens then terran is free to do whatever he wants - make more expansions himself to be on equal or better economical footing with zerg and/or kill zerg bases. Terran has to be aggressive only in early and mid game, later the winner is the one who wins engagements and has better economy.
Yes, a Zerg player would run away from HSM. It's common sense, that you would move your army away from the missile, until it runs out of gas thus effectively wasting the energy of the ravens. I don't think you understand what cost efficient means. If you think 100/200 per raven as well as 300/300 for research, simply to make your enemy move a few meters away is cost efficient you don't know what you're talking about.
i.e using 10 marines to kill 5 sentries is cost efficient.
I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast. It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost.
I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period.
There actually is a delay for when the EMP hits. The infestor is not a slow unit. A competent zerg always has his infestors tucked behind his army. Your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic unless your opponent has terrible unit control.
Ghost sight range is 11, EMP range is 10 which means you are talking nonsense because as soon as terran sees spellcaster units he gets ready to EMP and after about one second of a ghost moving closer to the targets there is no need to guess where those targeted spellcasters will move, EMP hits split second later after an order to do it. For the sake of trying to be right you are talking nonsense again by giving examples from a zerg stand point that completely miss the meaning of what I wrote. Zerg drags infestors along behind his army? Move the ghosts behind the zerg army where the infestors are, move them around and use medivacs in case of terrain, like cliffs, blocking the path. There is nothing hard about doing this. Ghosts are anti spellcaster spellcasters, the nature of EMP and snipe explains it more than enough. You are talking nonsense yet again - they are spellcasters but "they should have an offensive capability"? If so then what are they exactly, placeholder units for something better because blizz is retarded?
There actually is something hard about this. You aren't factoring the amount of micro and multitask required to control two areas. It's not the same as dropping a base. Microing your army away from infestors, while trying to emp them at the same time? It's not difficult for a zerg player to simply fungal medivac they see near their army, not to mention you can't unload or reload units when a medivac is fungaled. Once again your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic. Terran players aren't incompetent like you're trying to make them out to be.
There are tons of Terran players out there with amazing multitask and micro, yet they don't bother with what you're saying for good reason.
Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight. You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled. This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality. The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this.
Yep, you are talking nonsense again and you don't know what word instantaneously means. Saying a unit is made instantaneously would mean it takes less than 5 seconds for the unit to be done after issuing an order to make the unit. Saying "instantly once they hatch" doesn't make any sense. The closest to making units instantly is only warping warp gate units. And BTW you can also hold down the hot key for any terran unit and instantaneously queue of production facility is filled with units or in the case of more production facilities all of them are ordered to make such a unit. The only difference is for zerg the units spawn from larvae, for terran they come from buildings.
Yes he is wrong with the context in which he used instanteous, however let me clarify what I believe he was trying to say. The production cycle can start immediately as zerg can instantly create eggs, however there is still a timer for when the units hatch.
Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races.
No, it's your bias that form whines, it's not even close to explaining why am I wrong. I didn't tell anyone to "shut the fuck up", likewise no one told me to do it. Yes, I definitely can't see this from a perspective of a whiner who can't use his brain to move his ghosts around instead of clinging helplessly to blob army mentality which makes him aggressively attack any suggestion to separate any unit from his army in order to gain tactical advantage. I have confidence in and I always support blizz devs buffing or nerfing anything but my mentality is to constantly seek solution until that happens. I'd like to remind you that we keep on talking about the ghost usage which is only a part and not entire TvZ problem. This means I am not disregarding the entirety of pro opinions, I didn't even quote majority of terran pros who posted in this thread. I don't see anything wrong in asking for VODs or replays, like I said if the problem is as prevalent as people here describe it then it should not be a problem to give examples. Your opinions come from you personal experience and only failures accompanied by ignorance to strive to perform better can explain your approach. The only anecdotal opinion on the topic at hand (using ghosts against infestors) came from KawaiiRice and for some reason he is disinterested at showing how exactly it looked like which is a shame and what I don't understand. No, you are a hypocrite. By trying to see it from your perspective you mean people unwilling to do any change at their own and just waiting for higher power to change things, so yes I will never look at the problem of ghost from your perspective.
You are correct. The fact of the matter is you don't understand how the terran race works, nor do you understand the mechanics, yet you are trying to debate with someone who is obviously flustered with the current state of TvZ and he is simply mad because you don't understand where he is coming from, hence why his posts have changed tune and become more aggressive.
I mean, telling people they aren't willing to change? The vast majority of pros here have been stating their opinions on how Ravens don't cut it, and you are still adamant about proving them wrong. You not seeing how big of a change the queen buff is to the match-up just goes to show how little you know about TvZ on the terran side of things.
Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted. I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore.
I definitely don't think I am bitching about you bitching, perhaps if you will write your next posts in the same manner I will start to bitch. If Blizzard decides there is a need for buffs and/or nerfs then so be it. Era of terran dominance was definitely longer than current era of protoss and zerg dominance so you have no right to say that "terran players have been trying much harder than Zerg or Protoss to find new ingenious ways to play because of everything that happened".
So because Terran was overpowered for a long period of time, it means it's okay for Zerg and Protoss to be overpowered as well. I'm not sure if you know this, but in WC3 the same balance issues applied. One race would be overpowered for a while, then another and so on.
I suppose you won't mind if Terran becomes overpowered again over a short while? I don't understand how you can even say something like that, and be expected to be taken seriously. Educate yourself.
LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered?
It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen. My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
I'm glad that you're trying to find solutions here, but really, they're rather ridiculous. Sacrificing a raven to, if zerg isn't having a brain aneurysm, to bring a broodlord or two down to half health seems rather silly. Same thing for your medivac infestor idea. It might work in a sandbox/perfect world, but it won't work in an actual game. If Zerg just f-clicks your medivac instead of move commanding into range, only 1 infestor will go in range to fungal. Congrats, now you just lost a medivac and several ghosts for nothing. Not only that, ghosts won't help you do shit in an actual battle beyond "Holy shit I hope he's bad and doesn't know what spreading is."
First of all I don't think that ravens are meant to fire HSMs at brood lords. Second, flying close enough with a raven so it gets caught in the blast (just to prevent units running away from HSMs) doesn't mean sacrificing it because HSM deals up to 100 damage and much less at the edge of explosion, and raven has 140 hit points. Wait I don't get it, 1 infestor fungals a medivac so the medivac is lost? It can still unload the ghosts and player can move them away 1 by 1 so all of them don't get caught in the next fungal, and most of all it doesn't have to fly in range of a fungal to unload those ghosts. The thing about ghosts is they don't have to do anything other than EMPing infestors because thanks to EMP being AoE terran doesn't have to spend as much resources to counter infestors as zerg is spending on infestors. In my testing I hit not 4 not 6 but 9 infestors with a single EMP. The average is 4 to 6 infestors being hit which means ideally there is a need for a ghost each 4 to 6 infestors zerg makes. And let's face it: zergs do not spread their infestors.
You contradict yourself multiple times. 1st of all you say that I am ridiculous for thinking that zerg wouldn't run away from HSM and yet you deny the fact that would mean that ravens are cost efficient. When you are saying zerg has to run from HSM you are basically saying ravens are good enough. If terran must be on the aggression and yet zerg runs away from ravens then terran is free to do whatever he wants - make more expansions himself to be on equal or better economical footing with zerg and/or kill zerg bases. Terran has to be aggressive only in early and mid game, later the winner is the one who wins engagements and has better economy.
Yes, a Zerg player would run away from HSM. It's common sense, that you would move your army away from the missile, until it runs out of gas thus effectively wasting the energy of the ravens. I don't think you understand what cost efficient means. If you think 100/200 per raven as well as 300/300 for research, simply to make your enemy move a few meters away is cost efficient you don't know what you're talking about.
i.e using 10 marines to kill 5 sentries is cost efficient.
I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast. It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost.
I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period.
There actually is a delay for when the EMP hits. The infestor is not a slow unit. A competent zerg always has his infestors tucked behind his army. Your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic unless your opponent has terrible unit control.
Ghost sight range is 11, EMP range is 10 which means you are talking nonsense because as soon as terran sees spellcaster units he gets ready to EMP and after about one second of a ghost moving closer to the targets there is no need to guess where those targeted spellcasters will move, EMP hits split second later after an order to do it. For the sake of trying to be right you are talking nonsense again by giving examples from a zerg stand point that completely miss the meaning of what I wrote. Zerg drags infestors along behind his army? Move the ghosts behind the zerg army where the infestors are, move them around and use medivacs in case of terrain, like cliffs, blocking the path. There is nothing hard about doing this. Ghosts are anti spellcaster spellcasters, the nature of EMP and snipe explains it more than enough. You are talking nonsense yet again - they are spellcasters but "they should have an offensive capability"? If so then what are they exactly, placeholder units for something better because blizz is retarded?
There actually is something hard about this. You aren't factoring the amount of micro and multitask required to control two areas. It's not the same as dropping a base. Microing your army away from infestors, while trying to emp them at the same time? It's not difficult for a zerg player to simply fungal medivac they see near their army, not to mention you can't unload or reload units when a medivac is fungaled. Once again your advice makes sense, but it's not realistic. Terran players aren't incompetent like you're trying to make them out to be.
There are tons of Terran players out there with amazing multitask and micro, yet they don't bother with what you're saying for good reason.
Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight. You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled. This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality. The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this.
Yep, you are talking nonsense again and you don't know what word instantaneously means. Saying a unit is made instantaneously would mean it takes less than 5 seconds for the unit to be done after issuing an order to make the unit. Saying "instantly once they hatch" doesn't make any sense. The closest to making units instantly is only warping warp gate units. And BTW you can also hold down the hot key for any terran unit and instantaneously queue of production facility is filled with units or in the case of more production facilities all of them are ordered to make such a unit. The only difference is for zerg the units spawn from larvae, for terran they come from buildings.
Yes he is wrong with the context in which he used instanteous, however let me clarify what I believe he was trying to say. The production cycle can start immediately as zerg can instantly create eggs, however there is still a timer for when the units hatch.
Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races.
No, it's your bias that form whines, it's not even close to explaining why am I wrong. I didn't tell anyone to "shut the fuck up", likewise no one told me to do it. Yes, I definitely can't see this from a perspective of a whiner who can't use his brain to move his ghosts around instead of clinging helplessly to blob army mentality which makes him aggressively attack any suggestion to separate any unit from his army in order to gain tactical advantage. I have confidence in and I always support blizz devs buffing or nerfing anything but my mentality is to constantly seek solution until that happens. I'd like to remind you that we keep on talking about the ghost usage which is only a part and not entire TvZ problem. This means I am not disregarding the entirety of pro opinions, I didn't even quote majority of terran pros who posted in this thread. I don't see anything wrong in asking for VODs or replays, like I said if the problem is as prevalent as people here describe it then it should not be a problem to give examples. Your opinions come from you personal experience and only failures accompanied by ignorance to strive to perform better can explain your approach. The only anecdotal opinion on the topic at hand (using ghosts against infestors) came from KawaiiRice and for some reason he is disinterested at showing how exactly it looked like which is a shame and what I don't understand. No, you are a hypocrite. By trying to see it from your perspective you mean people unwilling to do any change at their own and just waiting for higher power to change things, so yes I will never look at the problem of ghost from your perspective.
You are correct. The fact of the matter is you don't understand how the terran race works, nor do you understand the mechanics, yet you are trying to debate with someone who is obviously flustered with the current state of TvZ and he is simply mad because you don't understand where he is coming from, hence why his posts have changed tune and become more aggressive.
I mean, telling people they aren't willing to change? The vast majority of pros here have been stating their opinions on how Ravens don't cut it, and you are still adamant about proving them wrong. You not seeing how big of a change the queen buff is to the match-up just goes to show how little you know about TvZ on the terran side of things.
Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted. I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore.
I definitely don't think I am bitching about you bitching, perhaps if you will write your next posts in the same manner I will start to bitch. If Blizzard decides there is a need for buffs and/or nerfs then so be it. Era of terran dominance was definitely longer than current era of protoss and zerg dominance so you have no right to say that "terran players have been trying much harder than Zerg or Protoss to find new ingenious ways to play because of everything that happened".
So because Terran was overpowered for a long period of time, it means it's okay for Zerg and Protoss to be overpowered as well. I'm not sure if you know this, but in WC3 the same balance issues applied. One race would be overpowered for a while, then another and so on.
I suppose you won't mind if Terran becomes overpowered again over a short while? I don't understand how you can even say something like that, and be expected to be taken seriously. Educate yourself.
LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered?
It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen. My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
rofl@EMP before the fight. Are you kidding me? I didn't know it was that simple. Damn what valuable insight, I guess everyone who has ever played terran just completely disregarded EMPing everything before the fight.
I don't know why are you being sarcastic but I see you have nothing to prove this as a wrong approach to the ghost problem.
On June 21 2012 06:17 EienShinwa wrote: I don't give a fuck anymore. Someone take over for me debating with beetlelisk. Thanks KonohaFlash. And I was wrong in the context of which I used the word "instantaneously". But that doesn't really have anything to do with the conversation.
Try new things, maybe it's worth it.
Come at me people.
You're just flamebaiting. You hardly seem interested in a reasonable discussion.
On June 21 2012 06:17 EienShinwa wrote: I don't give a fuck anymore. Someone take over for me debating with beetlelisk. Thanks KonohaFlash. And I was wrong in the context of which I used the word "instantaneously". But that doesn't really have anything to do with the conversation.
Try new things, maybe it's worth it.
Come at me people.
You're just flamebaiting. You hardly seem interested in a reasonable discussion.
Yeah and my long as fuck responses clearly show that.
On June 21 2012 11:16 Burns wrote: I feel like with the beta of HotS comming out soon, even if there are severe balance changes that need to be made, blizzard wont make them
Dustin Browder said they would be patching WoL even after HotS came out. Also hots beta is coming but there is no set date for the release so there's still lot's of time to analyze the situation and patch if needed.
I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast. It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost.
Your focus on the ghost doesn't make sense to be honest. You call the ghost anti-spell caster, yet high templar have feedback, storm which can reveal cloaked/burrowed units, as well as infestors that can fungal that reveals both cloaked and burrowed units. Obviously they aren't on the same level as the Ghost, in that regard, but they still have the tools necessary to be "anti-spellcaster" as you like to call it.
Terran players have been using ghosts for a very long time. We saw them being used plenty before the infestor buff. We still saw them in TvZ even after the Snipe nerf, yet they just weren't pulling their weight in late-game TvZ as they had before.
There is a reason Terran players don't make them as much as they used to. If you can't understand that, and still think the top korean pros need to "explore the ghost" you are delusional.
Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight. You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled. This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality. The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this.
I misspoke. You can't load units once they are fungalled is correct. Diverting the Zerg(drop) isn't going to make him remove his infestors from the rest of his main army. Not to mention if you even EMP 2-3 infestors with your first emp, you will learn from this mistake and create overseers.
I forget what GSL season it was, but there was a game between Byun and Leenock where he went with the ghost play you're talking about. Byun did some amazing ghost play, and got lots of emps off, but it just didn't cut it. Leenock just made overseers and fungalled his ghosts to death.
Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races.
No? Zerg can stockpile larvae in the late-game and create as many units as they have larvae and resources, Protoss can warp units pertaining to their gateway count, and Terran can only make 1 unit at a time per barracks. What exactly are you talking about when you say it is true for all the races?
Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted. I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore.
There is a very limited potential with the raven, other than clearing creep in the mid-game, or using slow HSM to hope your opponent doesn't spread out their BL/Infestor/Corrupter army.
Avilo already said Ravens are bad, as with every other pro. I don't care if you aren't talking about the queen buff. It is the exact reason the match-up has changed considerably. This is simply because of the design philosophy of the game. Blizzard has said multiple times, Terran needs to use their early-midgame advantage to damage their opponent's economy, so they can proceed into the late-game comfortably.
LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered?
It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen. My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
My reading comprehension is perfectly fine. I like how you use the argument that Terran hasn't had enough time to explore their units, even though they literally have to play with their entire army tiers for each match-up. I would much rather trust the pros who have been playing for years, and take comments from MVP(GM Zerg and Terran on Korea),Supernova, MMA, MKP over someone such as yourself, who consistently tries to flamebait and essentialy can't support any of his statements without having to say "explore your race"
I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast. It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost.
Your focus on the ghost doesn't make sense to be honest. You call the ghost anti-spell caster, yet high templar have feedback, storm which can reveal cloaked/burrowed units, as well as infestors that can fungal that reveals both cloaked and burrowed units. Obviously they aren't on the same level as the Ghost, in that regard, but they still have the tools necessary to be "anti-spellcaster" as you like to call it.
Terran players have been using ghosts for a very long time. We saw them being used plenty before the infestor buff. We still saw them in TvZ even after the Snipe nerf, yet they just weren't pulling their weight in late-game TvZ as they had before.
There is a reason Terran players don't make them as much as they used to. If you can't understand that, and still think the top korean pros need to "explore the ghost" you are delusional.
Storm revealing cloaked/burrowed units is a news to me, Liquipedia doesn't mention it. I don't know why are you mentioning other spellcasters, is it wrong if HT can also be called an anti - spellcaster unit because of feedback? I think I would rather call the HT just a spellcaster as storm is the primary ability and feedback secondary while 2 of 3 ghost's abilities aim spellcasters. I don't know where are we going with this semantics though.
I would like to know the reason why ghosts aren't used as much in TvZ and I don't find it to be delusional that ghosts are underused and should be used more.
Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight. You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled. This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality. The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this.
I misspoke. You can't load units once they are fungalled is correct. Diverting the Zerg(drop) isn't going to make him remove his infestors from the rest of his main army. Not to mention if you even EMP 2-3 infestors with your first emp, you will learn from this mistake and create overseers.
I forget what GSL season it was, but there was a game between Byun and Leenock where he went with the ghost play you're talking about. Byun did some amazing ghost play, and got lots of emps off, but it just didn't cut it. Leenock just made overseers and fungalled his ghosts to death.
Even if you divert zerg's attention you still approach infestors from the side that has less units around infestors. The average number of infestors hit by an EMP is 4-6 and goes up to 9. Test it yourself. We aren't talking about cloaking ghosts yet so what's the point in making overseers?
I'd like to see that game, I have access to pirated GSL games so maybe I will find it.
Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races.
No? Zerg can stockpile larvae in the late-game and create as many units as they have larvae and resources, Protoss can warp units pertaining to their gateway count, and Terran can only make 1 unit at a time per barracks. What exactly are you talking about when you say it is true for all the races?
We are delving into semantics again. Only protoss warping in units is the closest to making unit instantaneously. We can say that zerg late game past being maxed out point has unit production advantage (but still can't make units instantaneously) and it's not that high as zerg units are weaker and zerg still has to make more hatcheries to really abuse the amount of larvae. Both protoss and terran can make only 1 unit per production building at the same time so don't try to word it like terran is harmed by design please.
Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted. I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore.
There is a very limited potential with the raven, other than clearing creep in the mid-game, or using slow HSM to hope your opponent doesn't spread out their BL/Infestor/Corrupter army.
Avilo already said Ravens are bad, as with every other pro. I don't care if you aren't talking about the queen buff. It is the exact reason the match-up has changed considerably. This is simply because of the design philosophy of the game. Blizzard has said multiple times, Terran needs to use their early-midgame advantage to damage their opponent's economy, so they can proceed into the late-game comfortably.
Avilo said in his HotS blog he wishes for raven buff to happen so he still sees a potential in this unit. I also remember his guide that focuses on using ravens so I guess there is more to it than just hoping zerg doesn't spread his corruptors.
Yes terran has to be aggressive in early - midgame so we will see how things develope, whether it's someone revolutionizing the TvZ metagame or a new patch. That's everything I'm going to say about the queen buff and it doesn't show in any way that TvZ lategame has nothing to improve. People whined about infestors so I jumped on the topic of using ghost and I'm going to remain solely on that topic.
LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered?
It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen. My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
My reading comprehension is perfectly fine. I like how you use the argument that Terran hasn't had enough time to explore their units, even though they literally have to play with their entire army tiers for each match-up. I would much rather trust the pros who have been playing for years, and take comments from MVP(GM Zerg and Terran on Korea),Supernova, MMA, MKP over someone such as yourself, who consistently tries to flamebait and essentialy can't support any of his statements without having to say "explore your race"
Your reading comprehension is not ok if you jump to conclusions that have no relation to reality for the sole reason of attempting to gain a moral high ground. I don't know how can you say it's "perfectly fine" when I proved you wrong about you trying to guess my approach. We are talking about eras of races being overpowered, it's only true that terran didn't have to try as hard when it was the overpowered race for the longest period of time. If consider yourself flamebaited then feel free to do it, I don't care. I haven't had a chance to prove missplay in pro games yet, so far I was attacking commoners for their approach.
I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast. It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost.
Your focus on the ghost doesn't make sense to be honest. You call the ghost anti-spell caster, yet high templar have feedback, storm which can reveal cloaked/burrowed units, as well as infestors that can fungal that reveals both cloaked and burrowed units. Obviously they aren't on the same level as the Ghost, in that regard, but they still have the tools necessary to be "anti-spellcaster" as you like to call it.
Terran players have been using ghosts for a very long time. We saw them being used plenty before the infestor buff. We still saw them in TvZ even after the Snipe nerf, yet they just weren't pulling their weight in late-game TvZ as they had before.
There is a reason Terran players don't make them as much as they used to. If you can't understand that, and still think the top korean pros need to "explore the ghost" you are delusional.
Storm revealing cloaked/burrowed units is a news to me, Liquipedia doesn't mention it. I don't know why are you mentioning other spellcasters, is it wrong if HT can also be called an anti - spellcaster unit because of feedback? I think I would rather call the HT just a spellcaster as storm is the primary ability and feedback secondary while 2 of 3 ghost's abilities aim spellcasters. I don't know where are we going with this semantics though.
I would like to know the reason why ghosts aren't used as much in TvZ and I don't find it to be delusional that ghosts are underused and should be used more.
Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight. You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled. This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality. The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this.
I misspoke. You can't load units once they are fungalled is correct. Diverting the Zerg(drop) isn't going to make him remove his infestors from the rest of his main army. Not to mention if you even EMP 2-3 infestors with your first emp, you will learn from this mistake and create overseers.
I forget what GSL season it was, but there was a game between Byun and Leenock where he went with the ghost play you're talking about. Byun did some amazing ghost play, and got lots of emps off, but it just didn't cut it. Leenock just made overseers and fungalled his ghosts to death.
Even if you divert zerg's attention you still approach infestors from the side that has less units around infestors. The average number of infestors hit by an EMP is 4-6 and goes up to 9. Test it yourself. We aren't talking about cloaking ghosts yet so what's the point in making overseers?
I'd like to see that game, I have access to pirated GSL games so maybe I will find it.
Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races.
No? Zerg can stockpile larvae in the late-game and create as many units as they have larvae and resources, Protoss can warp units pertaining to their gateway count, and Terran can only make 1 unit at a time per barracks. What exactly are you talking about when you say it is true for all the races?
We are delving into semantics again. Only protoss warping in units is the closest to making unit instantaneously. We can say that zerg late game past being maxed out point has unit production advantage (but still can't make units instantaneously) and it's not that high as zerg units are weaker and zerg still has to make more hatcheries to really abuse the amount of larvae. Both protoss and terran can make only 1 unit per production building at the same time so don't try to word it like terran is harmed by design please.
Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted. I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore.
There is a very limited potential with the raven, other than clearing creep in the mid-game, or using slow HSM to hope your opponent doesn't spread out their BL/Infestor/Corrupter army.
Avilo already said Ravens are bad, as with every other pro. I don't care if you aren't talking about the queen buff. It is the exact reason the match-up has changed considerably. This is simply because of the design philosophy of the game. Blizzard has said multiple times, Terran needs to use their early-midgame advantage to damage their opponent's economy, so they can proceed into the late-game comfortably.
Avilo said in his HotS blog he wishes for raven buff to happen so he still sees a potential in this unit. I also remember his guide that focuses on using ravens so I guess there is more to it than just hoping zerg doesn't spread his corruptors.
Yes terran has to be aggressive in early - midgame so we will see how things develope, whether it's someone revolutionizing the TvZ metagame or a new patch. That's everything I'm going to say about the queen buff and it doesn't show in any way that TvZ lategame has nothing to improve. People whined about infestors so I jumped on the topic of using ghost and I'm going to remain solely on that topic.
LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered?
It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen. My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
My reading comprehension is perfectly fine. I like how you use the argument that Terran hasn't had enough time to explore their units, even though they literally have to play with their entire army tiers for each match-up. I would much rather trust the pros who have been playing for years, and take comments from MVP(GM Zerg and Terran on Korea),Supernova, MMA, MKP over someone such as yourself, who consistently tries to flamebait and essentialy can't support any of his statements without having to say "explore your race"
Your reading comprehension is not ok if you jump to conclusions that have no relation to reality for the sole reason of attempting to gain a moral high ground. I don't know how can you say it's "perfectly fine" when I proved you wrong about you trying to guess my approach. We are talking about eras of races being overpowered, it's only true that terran didn't have to try as hard when it was the overpowered race for the longest period of time. If consider yourself flamebaited then feel free to do it, I don't care. I haven't had a chance to prove missplay in pro games yet, so far I was attacking commoners for their approach.
Why would you not cloak your ghosts? I don't even know what to say. Still saying my reading comprehension is low, yet not once have I jumped to conclusions in this topic. All i have done is refute your claims why you continue to provide your anecdotal evidence, if you can even call it that.
You not knowing storm reveals cloaked units, once again shows your limited knowledge in the game, and the fact you need to cite liquipedia shows how little you know about the overall game, and really shouldn't comment and tell Terran's what they should try to expand on to better play in TvZ.
I don't feel flamebaited, all I see is your pathetic attempts at flamebaiting others, which you did succeed in doing. Why would I care about what someone like you has to say about balance?
i love the fact that this is only a blog so people can simply type whatever they want. even so i learnt so much by reading from all these detailed arguments. i feel sad because there are people who doesnt stand in our shoe and yet still telling us what to do. i feel like commenting on this blog because im a terran i feel all yall out there and for those who dont feel me why dont u try and experience it to see how us terrans feel. those who feels like this is a whine blog, ur not feeling it bro. however anybody has the right to feel anything and we can alway not give a crap about how someone feels. untill then terran and zerg cant come to an agreement otherwise there wouldnt be TvZ. both Z and T has their own feels to the matchup so who gives a crap about how other race feels. untill then keeps up with yo games terran chaos borns from order and order borns from chaos. change will come. luckyfool i feel u bro.
On June 21 2012 15:09 boomudead1 wrote: i love the fact that this is only a blog so people can simply type whatever they want. even so i learnt so much by reading from all these detailed arguments. i feel sad because there are people who doesnt stand in our shoe and yet still telling us what to do. i feel like commenting on this blog because im a terran i feel all yall out there and for those who dont feel me why dont u try and experience it to see how us terrans feel. those who feels like this is a whine blog, ur not feeling it bro. however anybody has the right to feel anything and we can alway not give a crap about how someone feels. untill then terran and zerg cant come to an agreement otherwise there wouldnt be TvZ. both Z and T has their own feels to the matchup so who gives a crap about how other race feels. untill then keeps up with yo games terran chaos borns from order and order borns from chaos. change will come. luckyfool i feel u bro.
Blizzard and the community care. TvZ simply hasn't been as entertaining as it was pre-patch. It's really boring seeing DRG just roll over every single terran.
I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast. It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost.
Your focus on the ghost doesn't make sense to be honest. You call the ghost anti-spell caster, yet high templar have feedback, storm which can reveal cloaked/burrowed units, as well as infestors that can fungal that reveals both cloaked and burrowed units. Obviously they aren't on the same level as the Ghost, in that regard, but they still have the tools necessary to be "anti-spellcaster" as you like to call it.
Terran players have been using ghosts for a very long time. We saw them being used plenty before the infestor buff. We still saw them in TvZ even after the Snipe nerf, yet they just weren't pulling their weight in late-game TvZ as they had before.
There is a reason Terran players don't make them as much as they used to. If you can't understand that, and still think the top korean pros need to "explore the ghost" you are delusional.
Storm revealing cloaked/burrowed units is a news to me, Liquipedia doesn't mention it. I don't know why are you mentioning other spellcasters, is it wrong if HT can also be called an anti - spellcaster unit because of feedback? I think I would rather call the HT just a spellcaster as storm is the primary ability and feedback secondary while 2 of 3 ghost's abilities aim spellcasters. I don't know where are we going with this semantics though.
I would like to know the reason why ghosts aren't used as much in TvZ and I don't find it to be delusional that ghosts are underused and should be used more.
Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight. You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled. This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality. The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this.
I misspoke. You can't load units once they are fungalled is correct. Diverting the Zerg(drop) isn't going to make him remove his infestors from the rest of his main army. Not to mention if you even EMP 2-3 infestors with your first emp, you will learn from this mistake and create overseers.
I forget what GSL season it was, but there was a game between Byun and Leenock where he went with the ghost play you're talking about. Byun did some amazing ghost play, and got lots of emps off, but it just didn't cut it. Leenock just made overseers and fungalled his ghosts to death.
Even if you divert zerg's attention you still approach infestors from the side that has less units around infestors. The average number of infestors hit by an EMP is 4-6 and goes up to 9. Test it yourself. We aren't talking about cloaking ghosts yet so what's the point in making overseers?
I'd like to see that game, I have access to pirated GSL games so maybe I will find it.
Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races.
No? Zerg can stockpile larvae in the late-game and create as many units as they have larvae and resources, Protoss can warp units pertaining to their gateway count, and Terran can only make 1 unit at a time per barracks. What exactly are you talking about when you say it is true for all the races?
We are delving into semantics again. Only protoss warping in units is the closest to making unit instantaneously. We can say that zerg late game past being maxed out point has unit production advantage (but still can't make units instantaneously) and it's not that high as zerg units are weaker and zerg still has to make more hatcheries to really abuse the amount of larvae. Both protoss and terran can make only 1 unit per production building at the same time so don't try to word it like terran is harmed by design please.
Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted. I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore.
There is a very limited potential with the raven, other than clearing creep in the mid-game, or using slow HSM to hope your opponent doesn't spread out their BL/Infestor/Corrupter army.
Avilo already said Ravens are bad, as with every other pro. I don't care if you aren't talking about the queen buff. It is the exact reason the match-up has changed considerably. This is simply because of the design philosophy of the game. Blizzard has said multiple times, Terran needs to use their early-midgame advantage to damage their opponent's economy, so they can proceed into the late-game comfortably.
Avilo said in his HotS blog he wishes for raven buff to happen so he still sees a potential in this unit. I also remember his guide that focuses on using ravens so I guess there is more to it than just hoping zerg doesn't spread his corruptors.
Yes terran has to be aggressive in early - midgame so we will see how things develope, whether it's someone revolutionizing the TvZ metagame or a new patch. That's everything I'm going to say about the queen buff and it doesn't show in any way that TvZ lategame has nothing to improve. People whined about infestors so I jumped on the topic of using ghost and I'm going to remain solely on that topic.
LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered?
It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen. My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
My reading comprehension is perfectly fine. I like how you use the argument that Terran hasn't had enough time to explore their units, even though they literally have to play with their entire army tiers for each match-up. I would much rather trust the pros who have been playing for years, and take comments from MVP(GM Zerg and Terran on Korea),Supernova, MMA, MKP over someone such as yourself, who consistently tries to flamebait and essentialy can't support any of his statements without having to say "explore your race"
Your reading comprehension is not ok if you jump to conclusions that have no relation to reality for the sole reason of attempting to gain a moral high ground. I don't know how can you say it's "perfectly fine" when I proved you wrong about you trying to guess my approach. We are talking about eras of races being overpowered, it's only true that terran didn't have to try as hard when it was the overpowered race for the longest period of time. If consider yourself flamebaited then feel free to do it, I don't care. I haven't had a chance to prove missplay in pro games yet, so far I was attacking commoners for their approach.
Why would you not cloak your ghosts? I don't even know what to say. Still saying my reading comprehension is low, yet not once have I jumped to conclusions in this topic. All i have done is refute your claims why you continue to provide your anecdotal evidence, if you can even call it that.
You said that I by talking about eras of races being overpowered, meant that it is ok, which I said not and did not mean. This the proof number 1 of your reading comprehension not being ok. The proof number 2 is you jumping to conclusions again and thinking I'm against cloaking ghosts which I also didn't say. I said we aren't talking about ghosts being cloaked yet. The problem about cloaking is it requires waiting for the ghost to have more energy so it has enough energy to 1) become cloaked which takes 25e 2) to reach it's targets while being cloaked which takes 0,9 energy / second and 3) cast an EMP. Terran wants to be aggressive which means units made are being instantly sent to the front lines so not always ghost may have enough energy to do steps 1), 2) and 3). Cloaking is of course desired by terran to use but further complicates already complicated matter of using ghosts. In an actual desire of mine to show respect to terran players you accuse me of having not I try to take the problem step by step instead of jumping right away to advanced micro solutions that aren't seen to be used and thus would require anyone trying to address my point to at very least be careful and skeptical.
And while I'm talking about using cloaked ghost I think Taeja showed a great way to EMP before engaging against StarTale_AcE, today. IMO terrans should take the example of using ghosts from the way they play TvP. In the engagement I'm talking about Taeja didn't send ghosts alone but by just a few squares ahead of the rest of the forces, cast EMPs and immediately engaged with the rest of his forces while pulling ghosts back. This allowed him to be able to immediately aid ghosts in case they are revealed and attacked. I am guessing terran attempting to EMP infestors in TvZ has an advantage because EMP has 10 range while fungal has 9 and EMP disables several spellcasters at once so especially coupling this with cloak gives terran upper hand and element of surprise which can be used to cast more EMPs than zerg casts fungals.
You not knowing storm reveals cloaked units, once again shows your limited knowledge in the game, and the fact you need to cite liquipedia shows how little you know about the overall game, and really shouldn't comment and tell Terran's what they should try to expand on to better play in TvZ.
The fact is you pulled that knowledge right out of your ass as I tested this and confirmed that storm doesn't reveal shit. Fail at reading comprehension proof number 3: confirming something by going to number 1 source for StarCraft knowledge doesn't mean showing lack of knowledge. You disregarding Liquipedia does show ignorance on your part though.
I don't feel flamebaited, all I see is your pathetic attempts at flamebaiting others, which you did succeed in doing. Why would I care about what someone like you has to say about balance?
You reply to me so you do care. You twist the meaning of my words 3 times, show ignorance and pull non existing facts out of your ass to try to discredit me so who is flamebaiting who here? Me 5:0 you, right here, right now.
On June 20 2012 03:51 xTrim wrote: GUYS I JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT COULD BE A A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT SEEKER MISSILE WILL HIT WHERE AN UNIT DIES?? MAKE 5 RAVENS SEEKER MISSILE A FAST UNIT, AND SUICIDE THEM INTO ZERG'S ARMY! IT EVEN WORKS WITH CLOAKED UNITS (BANSHEES COMES TO MIND)....
Ok I'm not saying this unit cannot be fungalled, or such... BUT this provides a "infinite" range seeker missile! I tried in the unit tester, make a hellion run under the ravens, mass HSM the hellions and run into a blob of enemies.... Insta gib from a seeker missile casted like 20+ range away!!
User was temp banned for this post.
I liked the idea a LOT... For instance PDD and seeker missile the PDD? It doesnt get insta owned by corruptors?
And i don't get it why the poster was banned.. It at least adds new meat to the discussion....
On June 20 2012 03:51 xTrim wrote: GUYS I JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT COULD BE A A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT SEEKER MISSILE WILL HIT WHERE AN UNIT DIES?? MAKE 5 RAVENS SEEKER MISSILE A FAST UNIT, AND SUICIDE THEM INTO ZERG'S ARMY! IT EVEN WORKS WITH CLOAKED UNITS (BANSHEES COMES TO MIND)....
Ok I'm not saying this unit cannot be fungalled, or such... BUT this provides a "infinite" range seeker missile! I tried in the unit tester, make a hellion run under the ravens, mass HSM the hellions and run into a blob of enemies.... Insta gib from a seeker missile casted like 20+ range away!!
User was temp banned for this post.
I liked the idea a LOT... For instance PDD and seeker missile the PDD? It doesnt get insta owned by corruptors?
And i don't get it why the poster was banned.. It at least adds new meat to the discussion....
Prolly was banned for abusing bold text and caps lock.
On June 20 2012 03:51 xTrim wrote: GUYS I JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT COULD BE A A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT SEEKER MISSILE WILL HIT WHERE AN UNIT DIES?? MAKE 5 RAVENS SEEKER MISSILE A FAST UNIT, AND SUICIDE THEM INTO ZERG'S ARMY! IT EVEN WORKS WITH CLOAKED UNITS (BANSHEES COMES TO MIND)....
Ok I'm not saying this unit cannot be fungalled, or such... BUT this provides a "infinite" range seeker missile! I tried in the unit tester, make a hellion run under the ravens, mass HSM the hellions and run into a blob of enemies.... Insta gib from a seeker missile casted like 20+ range away!!
User was temp banned for this post.
I liked the idea a LOT... For instance PDD and seeker missile the PDD? It doesnt get insta owned by corruptors?
And i don't get it why the poster was banned.. It at least adds new meat to the discussion....
Prolly was banned for abusing bold text and caps lock.
On June 20 2012 03:51 xTrim wrote: GUYS I JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT COULD BE A A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT SEEKER MISSILE WILL HIT WHERE AN UNIT DIES?? MAKE 5 RAVENS SEEKER MISSILE A FAST UNIT, AND SUICIDE THEM INTO ZERG'S ARMY! IT EVEN WORKS WITH CLOAKED UNITS (BANSHEES COMES TO MIND)....
Ok I'm not saying this unit cannot be fungalled, or such... BUT this provides a "infinite" range seeker missile! I tried in the unit tester, make a hellion run under the ravens, mass HSM the hellions and run into a blob of enemies.... Insta gib from a seeker missile casted like 20+ range away!!
User was temp banned for this post.
I liked the idea a LOT... For instance PDD and seeker missile the PDD? It doesnt get insta owned by corruptors?
And i don't get it why the poster was banned.. It at least adds new meat to the discussion....
Prolly was banned for abusing bold text and caps lock.
On June 20 2012 03:51 xTrim wrote: GUYS I JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT COULD BE A A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT SEEKER MISSILE WILL HIT WHERE AN UNIT DIES?? MAKE 5 RAVENS SEEKER MISSILE A FAST UNIT, AND SUICIDE THEM INTO ZERG'S ARMY! IT EVEN WORKS WITH CLOAKED UNITS (BANSHEES COMES TO MIND)....
Ok I'm not saying this unit cannot be fungalled, or such... BUT this provides a "infinite" range seeker missile! I tried in the unit tester, make a hellion run under the ravens, mass HSM the hellions and run into a blob of enemies.... Insta gib from a seeker missile casted like 20+ range away!!
User was temp banned for this post.
I liked the idea a LOT... For instance PDD and seeker missile the PDD? It doesnt get insta owned by corruptors?
And i don't get it why the poster was banned.. It at least adds new meat to the discussion....
Prolly was banned for abusing bold text and caps lock.
wouldnt taht be worth only a warning or such?
Only if your post count is greater than or equal to 1000.
On June 20 2012 03:51 xTrim wrote: GUYS I JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT COULD BE A A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT SEEKER MISSILE WILL HIT WHERE AN UNIT DIES?? MAKE 5 RAVENS SEEKER MISSILE A FAST UNIT, AND SUICIDE THEM INTO ZERG'S ARMY! IT EVEN WORKS WITH CLOAKED UNITS (BANSHEES COMES TO MIND)....
Ok I'm not saying this unit cannot be fungalled, or such... BUT this provides a "infinite" range seeker missile! I tried in the unit tester, make a hellion run under the ravens, mass HSM the hellions and run into a blob of enemies.... Insta gib from a seeker missile casted like 20+ range away!!
User was temp banned for this post.
I liked the idea a LOT... For instance PDD and seeker missile the PDD? It doesnt get insta owned by corruptors?
And i don't get it why the poster was banned.. It at least adds new meat to the discussion....
Prolly was banned for abusing bold text and caps lock.
wouldnt taht be worth only a warning or such?
Only if your post count is greater than or equal to 1000.
yeah you have to be a high post count user and/or a veteran to have chance at being treated more kindly BUT HEY let's talk about this in the ABL Discussion thread in TL Community and remain on topic here.
I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast. It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost.
Your focus on the ghost doesn't make sense to be honest. You call the ghost anti-spell caster, yet high templar have feedback, storm which can reveal cloaked/burrowed units, as well as infestors that can fungal that reveals both cloaked and burrowed units. Obviously they aren't on the same level as the Ghost, in that regard, but they still have the tools necessary to be "anti-spellcaster" as you like to call it.
Terran players have been using ghosts for a very long time. We saw them being used plenty before the infestor buff. We still saw them in TvZ even after the Snipe nerf, yet they just weren't pulling their weight in late-game TvZ as they had before.
There is a reason Terran players don't make them as much as they used to. If you can't understand that, and still think the top korean pros need to "explore the ghost" you are delusional.
Storm revealing cloaked/burrowed units is a news to me, Liquipedia doesn't mention it. I don't know why are you mentioning other spellcasters, is it wrong if HT can also be called an anti - spellcaster unit because of feedback? I think I would rather call the HT just a spellcaster as storm is the primary ability and feedback secondary while 2 of 3 ghost's abilities aim spellcasters. I don't know where are we going with this semantics though.
I would like to know the reason why ghosts aren't used as much in TvZ and I don't find it to be delusional that ghosts are underused and should be used more.
Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight. You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled. This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality. The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this.
I misspoke. You can't load units once they are fungalled is correct. Diverting the Zerg(drop) isn't going to make him remove his infestors from the rest of his main army. Not to mention if you even EMP 2-3 infestors with your first emp, you will learn from this mistake and create overseers.
I forget what GSL season it was, but there was a game between Byun and Leenock where he went with the ghost play you're talking about. Byun did some amazing ghost play, and got lots of emps off, but it just didn't cut it. Leenock just made overseers and fungalled his ghosts to death.
Even if you divert zerg's attention you still approach infestors from the side that has less units around infestors. The average number of infestors hit by an EMP is 4-6 and goes up to 9. Test it yourself. We aren't talking about cloaking ghosts yet so what's the point in making overseers?
I'd like to see that game, I have access to pirated GSL games so maybe I will find it.
Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races.
No? Zerg can stockpile larvae in the late-game and create as many units as they have larvae and resources, Protoss can warp units pertaining to their gateway count, and Terran can only make 1 unit at a time per barracks. What exactly are you talking about when you say it is true for all the races?
We are delving into semantics again. Only protoss warping in units is the closest to making unit instantaneously. We can say that zerg late game past being maxed out point has unit production advantage (but still can't make units instantaneously) and it's not that high as zerg units are weaker and zerg still has to make more hatcheries to really abuse the amount of larvae. Both protoss and terran can make only 1 unit per production building at the same time so don't try to word it like terran is harmed by design please.
Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted. I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore.
There is a very limited potential with the raven, other than clearing creep in the mid-game, or using slow HSM to hope your opponent doesn't spread out their BL/Infestor/Corrupter army.
Avilo already said Ravens are bad, as with every other pro. I don't care if you aren't talking about the queen buff. It is the exact reason the match-up has changed considerably. This is simply because of the design philosophy of the game. Blizzard has said multiple times, Terran needs to use their early-midgame advantage to damage their opponent's economy, so they can proceed into the late-game comfortably.
Avilo said in his HotS blog he wishes for raven buff to happen so he still sees a potential in this unit. I also remember his guide that focuses on using ravens so I guess there is more to it than just hoping zerg doesn't spread his corruptors.
Yes terran has to be aggressive in early - midgame so we will see how things develope, whether it's someone revolutionizing the TvZ metagame or a new patch. That's everything I'm going to say about the queen buff and it doesn't show in any way that TvZ lategame has nothing to improve. People whined about infestors so I jumped on the topic of using ghost and I'm going to remain solely on that topic.
LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered?
It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen. My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
My reading comprehension is perfectly fine. I like how you use the argument that Terran hasn't had enough time to explore their units, even though they literally have to play with their entire army tiers for each match-up. I would much rather trust the pros who have been playing for years, and take comments from MVP(GM Zerg and Terran on Korea),Supernova, MMA, MKP over someone such as yourself, who consistently tries to flamebait and essentialy can't support any of his statements without having to say "explore your race"
Your reading comprehension is not ok if you jump to conclusions that have no relation to reality for the sole reason of attempting to gain a moral high ground. I don't know how can you say it's "perfectly fine" when I proved you wrong about you trying to guess my approach. We are talking about eras of races being overpowered, it's only true that terran didn't have to try as hard when it was the overpowered race for the longest period of time. If consider yourself flamebaited then feel free to do it, I don't care. I haven't had a chance to prove missplay in pro games yet, so far I was attacking commoners for their approach.
Why would you not cloak your ghosts? I don't even know what to say. Still saying my reading comprehension is low, yet not once have I jumped to conclusions in this topic. All i have done is refute your claims why you continue to provide your anecdotal evidence, if you can even call it that.
You said that I by talking about eras of races being overpowered, meant that it is ok, which I said not and did not mean. This the proof number 1 of your reading comprehension not being ok. The proof number 2 is you jumping to conclusions again and thinking I'm against cloaking ghosts which I also didn't say. I said we aren't talking about ghosts being cloaked yet. The problem about cloaking is it requires waiting for the ghost to have more energy so it has enough energy to 1) become cloaked which takes 25e 2) to reach it's targets while being cloaked which takes 0,9 energy / second and 3) cast an EMP. Terran wants to be aggressive which means units made are being instantly sent to the front lines so not always ghost may have enough energy to do steps 1), 2) and 3). Cloaking is of course desired by terran to use but further complicates already complicated matter of using ghosts. In an actual desire of mine to show respect to terran players you accuse me of having not I try to take the problem step by step instead of jumping right away to advanced micro solutions that aren't seen to be used and thus would require anyone trying to address my point to at very least be careful and skeptical.
And while I'm talking about using cloaked ghost I think Taeja showed a great way to EMP before engaging against StarTale_AcE, today. IMO terrans should take the example of using ghosts from the way they play TvP. In the engagement I'm talking about Taeja didn't send ghosts alone but by just a few squares ahead of the rest of the forces, cast EMPs and immediately engaged with the rest of his forces while pulling ghosts back. This allowed him to be able to immediately aid ghosts in case they are revealed and attacked. I am guessing terran attempting to EMP infestors in TvZ has an advantage because EMP has 10 range while fungal has 9 and EMP disables several spellcasters at once so especially coupling this with cloak gives terran upper hand and element of surprise which can be used to cast more EMPs than zerg casts fungals.
You not knowing storm reveals cloaked units, once again shows your limited knowledge in the game, and the fact you need to cite liquipedia shows how little you know about the overall game, and really shouldn't comment and tell Terran's what they should try to expand on to better play in TvZ.
The fact is you pulled that knowledge right out of your ass as I tested this and confirmed that storm doesn't reveal shit. Fail at reading comprehension proof number 3: confirming something by going to number 1 source for StarCraft knowledge doesn't mean showing lack of knowledge. You disregarding Liquipedia does show ignorance on your part though.
I don't feel flamebaited, all I see is your pathetic attempts at flamebaiting others, which you did succeed in doing. Why would I care about what someone like you has to say about balance?
You reply to me so you do care. You twist the meaning of my words 3 times, show ignorance and pull non existing facts out of your ass to try to discredit me so who is flamebaiting who here? Me 5:0 you, right here, right now.
This is too funny. The fact you still think storm and fungal doesn't reveal units just goes to show you really don't play this game at a high level. You used a unit testeer? Oh you mean the tester that allows you to see both sides units regardless of cloak and burrow?
This is seriously too funny. That is why I said there is no reason for me to care about what you have to say.
All you do is establish a viewpoint from watching VoDs, not knowing the actual mechanics of each respective race, and you still think you can talk about balance.
5:0 what? You're trying to say you're beating me in a debate, when your reading comprehension is a joke? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Psionic_Storm http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Fungal_Growth The best part about this, is the very fact you flat out stated fungal and storm don't affect cloaked and burrowed units, then cited liquipedia as well. You have zero credibility or knowledge of the game outside of your "VoDs" Leave the balance talk to the people in high master and beyond.
I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast. It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost.
Your focus on the ghost doesn't make sense to be honest. You call the ghost anti-spell caster, yet high templar have feedback, storm which can reveal cloaked/burrowed units, as well as infestors that can fungal that reveals both cloaked and burrowed units. Obviously they aren't on the same level as the Ghost, in that regard, but they still have the tools necessary to be "anti-spellcaster" as you like to call it.
Terran players have been using ghosts for a very long time. We saw them being used plenty before the infestor buff. We still saw them in TvZ even after the Snipe nerf, yet they just weren't pulling their weight in late-game TvZ as they had before.
There is a reason Terran players don't make them as much as they used to. If you can't understand that, and still think the top korean pros need to "explore the ghost" you are delusional.
Storm revealing cloaked/burrowed units is a news to me, Liquipedia doesn't mention it. I don't know why are you mentioning other spellcasters, is it wrong if HT can also be called an anti - spellcaster unit because of feedback? I think I would rather call the HT just a spellcaster as storm is the primary ability and feedback secondary while 2 of 3 ghost's abilities aim spellcasters. I don't know where are we going with this semantics though.
I would like to know the reason why ghosts aren't used as much in TvZ and I don't find it to be delusional that ghosts are underused and should be used more.
Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight. You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled. This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality. The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this.
I misspoke. You can't load units once they are fungalled is correct. Diverting the Zerg(drop) isn't going to make him remove his infestors from the rest of his main army. Not to mention if you even EMP 2-3 infestors with your first emp, you will learn from this mistake and create overseers.
I forget what GSL season it was, but there was a game between Byun and Leenock where he went with the ghost play you're talking about. Byun did some amazing ghost play, and got lots of emps off, but it just didn't cut it. Leenock just made overseers and fungalled his ghosts to death.
Even if you divert zerg's attention you still approach infestors from the side that has less units around infestors. The average number of infestors hit by an EMP is 4-6 and goes up to 9. Test it yourself. We aren't talking about cloaking ghosts yet so what's the point in making overseers?
I'd like to see that game, I have access to pirated GSL games so maybe I will find it.
Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races.
No? Zerg can stockpile larvae in the late-game and create as many units as they have larvae and resources, Protoss can warp units pertaining to their gateway count, and Terran can only make 1 unit at a time per barracks. What exactly are you talking about when you say it is true for all the races?
We are delving into semantics again. Only protoss warping in units is the closest to making unit instantaneously. We can say that zerg late game past being maxed out point has unit production advantage (but still can't make units instantaneously) and it's not that high as zerg units are weaker and zerg still has to make more hatcheries to really abuse the amount of larvae. Both protoss and terran can make only 1 unit per production building at the same time so don't try to word it like terran is harmed by design please.
Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted. I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore.
There is a very limited potential with the raven, other than clearing creep in the mid-game, or using slow HSM to hope your opponent doesn't spread out their BL/Infestor/Corrupter army.
Avilo already said Ravens are bad, as with every other pro. I don't care if you aren't talking about the queen buff. It is the exact reason the match-up has changed considerably. This is simply because of the design philosophy of the game. Blizzard has said multiple times, Terran needs to use their early-midgame advantage to damage their opponent's economy, so they can proceed into the late-game comfortably.
Avilo said in his HotS blog he wishes for raven buff to happen so he still sees a potential in this unit. I also remember his guide that focuses on using ravens so I guess there is more to it than just hoping zerg doesn't spread his corruptors.
Yes terran has to be aggressive in early - midgame so we will see how things develope, whether it's someone revolutionizing the TvZ metagame or a new patch. That's everything I'm going to say about the queen buff and it doesn't show in any way that TvZ lategame has nothing to improve. People whined about infestors so I jumped on the topic of using ghost and I'm going to remain solely on that topic.
LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered?
It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen. My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
My reading comprehension is perfectly fine. I like how you use the argument that Terran hasn't had enough time to explore their units, even though they literally have to play with their entire army tiers for each match-up. I would much rather trust the pros who have been playing for years, and take comments from MVP(GM Zerg and Terran on Korea),Supernova, MMA, MKP over someone such as yourself, who consistently tries to flamebait and essentialy can't support any of his statements without having to say "explore your race"
Your reading comprehension is not ok if you jump to conclusions that have no relation to reality for the sole reason of attempting to gain a moral high ground. I don't know how can you say it's "perfectly fine" when I proved you wrong about you trying to guess my approach. We are talking about eras of races being overpowered, it's only true that terran didn't have to try as hard when it was the overpowered race for the longest period of time. If consider yourself flamebaited then feel free to do it, I don't care. I haven't had a chance to prove missplay in pro games yet, so far I was attacking commoners for their approach.
Why would you not cloak your ghosts? I don't even know what to say. Still saying my reading comprehension is low, yet not once have I jumped to conclusions in this topic. All i have done is refute your claims why you continue to provide your anecdotal evidence, if you can even call it that.
You said that I by talking about eras of races being overpowered, meant that it is ok, which I said not and did not mean. This the proof number 1 of your reading comprehension not being ok. The proof number 2 is you jumping to conclusions again and thinking I'm against cloaking ghosts which I also didn't say. I said we aren't talking about ghosts being cloaked yet. The problem about cloaking is it requires waiting for the ghost to have more energy so it has enough energy to 1) become cloaked which takes 25e 2) to reach it's targets while being cloaked which takes 0,9 energy / second and 3) cast an EMP. Terran wants to be aggressive which means units made are being instantly sent to the front lines so not always ghost may have enough energy to do steps 1), 2) and 3). Cloaking is of course desired by terran to use but further complicates already complicated matter of using ghosts. In an actual desire of mine to show respect to terran players you accuse me of having not I try to take the problem step by step instead of jumping right away to advanced micro solutions that aren't seen to be used and thus would require anyone trying to address my point to at very least be careful and skeptical.
And while I'm talking about using cloaked ghost I think Taeja showed a great way to EMP before engaging against StarTale_AcE, today. IMO terrans should take the example of using ghosts from the way they play TvP. In the engagement I'm talking about Taeja didn't send ghosts alone but by just a few squares ahead of the rest of the forces, cast EMPs and immediately engaged with the rest of his forces while pulling ghosts back. This allowed him to be able to immediately aid ghosts in case they are revealed and attacked. I am guessing terran attempting to EMP infestors in TvZ has an advantage because EMP has 10 range while fungal has 9 and EMP disables several spellcasters at once so especially coupling this with cloak gives terran upper hand and element of surprise which can be used to cast more EMPs than zerg casts fungals.
You not knowing storm reveals cloaked units, once again shows your limited knowledge in the game, and the fact you need to cite liquipedia shows how little you know about the overall game, and really shouldn't comment and tell Terran's what they should try to expand on to better play in TvZ.
The fact is you pulled that knowledge right out of your ass as I tested this and confirmed that storm doesn't reveal shit. Fail at reading comprehension proof number 3: confirming something by going to number 1 source for StarCraft knowledge doesn't mean showing lack of knowledge. You disregarding Liquipedia does show ignorance on your part though.
I don't feel flamebaited, all I see is your pathetic attempts at flamebaiting others, which you did succeed in doing. Why would I care about what someone like you has to say about balance?
You reply to me so you do care. You twist the meaning of my words 3 times, show ignorance and pull non existing facts out of your ass to try to discredit me so who is flamebaiting who here? Me 5:0 you, right here, right now.
This is too funny. The fact you still think storm and fungal doesn't reveal units just goes to show you really don't play this game at a high level. You used a unit testeer? Oh you mean the tester that allows you to see both sides units regardless of cloak and burrow?
And there goes the proof of ignorance number 2: unit testers allow to pick and change the vision given by units. Also proof of a fail at reading comprehension number 4: I never said fungal doesn't reveal cloaked units. Why would someone have to play at a high level to check basic stuff like that?
This is seriously too funny. That is why I said there is no reason for me to care about what you have to say.
What is really funny is you thinking you it's funny when you are completely, utterly wrong in everything you say. Your ignorance is astounding.
All you do is establish a viewpoint from watching VoDs, not knowing the actual mechanics of each respective race, and you still think you can talk about balance.
Proof of a fail at reading comprehension number 5: using ghosts is only a part of playing TvZ, as such it can't be enough to fix any imbalance if it exists. As such I could never imply I am talking about balance. At most I was talking about fighting the odds and that only blizzard patching proofs imbalance at the end, everything before that is a talk. I repeat: we aren't talking about general TvZ mechanics here, if you imply that, we are talking about using ghosts, only.
It's 8:0 now, don't go psychological projection on me when you have no idea what you are talking about in any part of your post. Proof of ignorance number 3: you link me to the storm article without reading it. It says that storm affects cloaked and burrowed units, it doesn't say anywhere that it reveals them. So it's 9:0 now.
The best part about this, is the very fact you flat out stated fungal and storm don't affect cloaked and burrowed units, then cited liquipedia as well. You have zero credibility or knowledge of the game outside of your "VoDs" Leave the balance talk to the people in high master and beyond.
LOL hahahahah you are a joke. Should I count stating the same thing twice (storm reveals cloaked units) and accusing me of something I didn't as 11:0? Maybe not.
Try harder, you are bad at trying.
edit: oh and you edited in this:
Leave the balance talk to the people in high master and beyond.
Very quick example of a person most definitely knowledgeable enough about the game who is not in HM is Chill:
On June 19 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote: On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
Quote DRG ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge."
Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so!
Quote MVP "Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg."
I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race).
"I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist."
There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all.
"I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything. "
So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease?
Quote Supernova "It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. "
Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken.
Trying to downtalk top notch Korean pros = big fail
Downtalk? As in pretend I know more then they do? I don't and I will never say I do. Nothing I said is unreasonable. People such as every Terran in this thread, protosses, zergs, INCLUDING koreans much of the time think their race is the weakest. And some of those statements are just silly. I commented how I saw it.
Just aboud everything you said was unreasonable at best. You clearly lack any sort of thorough understanding on the topic. TL should really open up a subforum that you have to link your bnet account to so that scrubleague theorycraft allstars can only read and not be heard.
You aren't explaining what parts are unreasonable. Just because you don't agree does not make what I said wrong. Also, I'm low masters, no I'm not a complete idiot. Get of your TL "I'm anonymously better than you" high-horse please.
When both zergs and terrans are pretty much in agreement that TvZ is, at best, incredibly hard right now, yes, you are being a bit unreasonable with the extent to which you are downplaying their statements lol
The average number of infestors hit by an EMP is 4-6 and goes up to 9
You are insane, unless you burrow stack 9 infestors you can't even physically fit them inside the radius of 1 emp lol
On June 19 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote: On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:
Quote DRG ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge."
Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so!
Quote MVP "Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg."
I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race).
"I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist."
There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all.
"I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything. "
So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease?
Quote Supernova "It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. "
Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken.
Trying to downtalk top notch Korean pros = big fail
Downtalk? As in pretend I know more then they do? I don't and I will never say I do. Nothing I said is unreasonable. People such as every Terran in this thread, protosses, zergs, INCLUDING koreans much of the time think their race is the weakest. And some of those statements are just silly. I commented how I saw it.
Just aboud everything you said was unreasonable at best. You clearly lack any sort of thorough understanding on the topic. TL should really open up a subforum that you have to link your bnet account to so that scrubleague theorycraft allstars can only read and not be heard.
You aren't explaining what parts are unreasonable. Just because you don't agree does not make what I said wrong. Also, I'm low masters, no I'm not a complete idiot. Get of your TL "I'm anonymously better than you" high-horse please.
When both zergs and terrans are pretty much in agreement that TvZ is, at best, incredibly hard right now, yes, you are being a bit unreasonable with the extent to which you are downplaying their statements lol
The average number of infestors hit by an EMP is 4-6 and goes up to 9
You are insane, unless you burrow stack 9 infestors you can't even physically fit them inside the radius of 1 emp lol
I will check this again now, this a result I got once. OH BTW infestors don't have to fit in the EMP area, they get hit even if the area just touches them. That explains how so many infestors that take area larger than that of an EMP get hit. It's true for all spells.
If you stack the infestors as tight as humanly possible, and get an absolute perfect hit you will get 9, but if zerg stacks them that tightly he's retarded.
On June 23 2012 01:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote: If you stack the infestors as tight as humanly possible, and get an absolute perfect hit you will get 9, but if zerg stacks them that tightly he's retarded.
I had to shoot a PM so I haven't started the testing yet. The thing is units naturally clump actually THAT tightly, game reduces separate spaces between them to zero as long as at least one unit steps out of magic box when the group is ordered to move. That's why I don't think it's that impossible to get such perfect hits, especially when infestors are moving and because of that, won't spread out after being hit by the first EMP. That's why I think EMPing in the TvP manner, i.e. right before engagement is the best way in TvZ too.
edit: while I'm at it I will test the minimal amount of infestors breaking the magic box too.
On June 23 2012 01:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote: If you stack the infestors as tight as humanly possible, and get an absolute perfect hit you will get 9, but if zerg stacks them that tightly he's retarded.
Jinro,
Wait ratio does the ghost need to hit to make the EMP worth it, do you think? The ghost is a pricey unit and what ratio of ghosts to infestors would be effective?
On June 23 2012 01:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote: If you stack the infestors as tight as humanly possible, and get an absolute perfect hit you will get 9, but if zerg stacks them that tightly he's retarded.
Jinro,
Wait ratio does the ghost need to hit to make the EMP worth it, do you think? The ghost is a pricey unit and what ratio of ghosts to infestors would be effective?
Infestor costs about as much as a Ghost (100/150 250 resources vs 200/100 300 resources) and you can hit 4-6 Infestors on average with each EMP so 4 to 6 times less ghosts than zerg has infestors, in my honest opinion. Sorry for chiming in.
On June 23 2012 01:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote: If you stack the infestors as tight as humanly possible, and get an absolute perfect hit you will get 9, but if zerg stacks them that tightly he's retarded.
Jinro,
Wait ratio does the ghost need to hit to make the EMP worth it, do you think? The ghost is a pricey unit and what ratio of ghosts to infestors would be effective?
Infestor costs about as much as a Ghost (100/150 250 resources vs 200/100 300 resources) and you can hit 4-6 Infestors on average with each EMP so 4 to 6 times less ghosts than zerg has infestors, in my honest opinion. Sorry for chiming in.
I like the fact that this discussion uses facts, the unit tester and screenshots, yet I think there is some miscommunication that I cannot quite place.
I can accept the calculation and findings above, and yet believe that ghosts are not cost efficient. Here are a few things that are crucial to the conclusions but which have not yet been explicated.
a) The Ghost has a 40 second build time and requires a tech lab. As the number of simultaneous ghosts being made is limited by the number of tech-lab rax, the production of ghosts has a larger opportunity cost than the infestor that can be mass-produced. b) 1 EMP is insufficient. To get rid of fungal, a ghost must land 2 EMP's, halving all the calculations above. c) Regular movement. Unlike air units, infestors do not clump up. Most of the time when a Z moves his army around, the infestors form a line. Thus, the only time we are talking about clumped up infestors (4-6 as you said), is when the Z has move-commanded all his infestors to one location, and they have arrived to re-clump. This also needs fewer units to be around, so that they do not interfere with clumping. It would be interesting to watch some random replays just to observe general infestor behaviour in this regard. d) The ghost is not a useful fighting unit. So the cost effectiveness of the ghost should be measured in terms of its limited utility. I won't say anything about it myself, it's not obvious, but what if the ghost does what it's supposed to do, and zero infestors remain to the Zerg. Wouldn't the supply and costs reduce the effectiveness of the Z army, just like vikings do when air units are no longer on the field? This observation ought to figure in the cost effectiveness calculations.
The last point is unfortunate to Beetlelisk, but Jinro plays the game for a living, and probably has a ton of personal experience of the interaction between the ghost and the infestor. I would love to hear more from him (and other pros) to learn myself, but I would advocate taking a pro's experience as valuable data until they themselves or other pros point out deficiencies in the experience.
Magic box for ground units is definitely smaller than for air units and is about this big:
11 Infestors fit in it without breaking it:
Someone has to do a detailed magic box article on Liquipedia.
On June 23 2012 01:58 Plansix wrote:
On June 23 2012 01:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote: If you stack the infestors as tight as humanly possible, and get an absolute perfect hit you will get 9, but if zerg stacks them that tightly he's retarded.
Jinro,
Wait ratio does the ghost need to hit to make the EMP worth it, do you think? The ghost is a pricey unit and what ratio of ghosts to infestors would be effective?
Infestor costs about as much as a Ghost (100/150 250 resources vs 200/100 300 resources) and you can hit 4-6 Infestors on average with each EMP so 4 to 6 times less ghosts than zerg has infestors, in my honest opinion. Sorry for chiming in.
I like the fact that this discussion uses facts, the unit tester and screenshots, yet I think there is some miscommunication that I cannot quite place.
I can accept the calculation and findings above, and yet believe that ghosts are not cost efficient. Here are a few things that are crucial to the conclusions but which have not yet been explicated.
a) The Ghost has a 40 second build time and requires a tech lab. As the number of simultaneous ghosts being made is limited by the number of tech-lab rax, the production of ghosts has a larger opportunity cost than the infestor that can be mass-produced.
1 Ghost also costs as much as 4 marines in minerals alone but takes less then a half of production cycle time needed for marines. Marines are being made in 25 seconds, 2 marines is 50 seconds so more than production of a ghost takes. How many ghosts would a barracks produce throughout entire game? Divide the tech lab cost by that amount for each ghost - 4 ghosts would mean their actual cost is 212,5 minerals instead of 200. Now subtract the cost of barracks saved thanks to production of ghosts taking less time than production of marines for the same cost. I may be wrong though , and production of ghosts would require more rax and tech labs than standard TvZ bio production because is my example of marines true and they are the unit being cut to make ghosts? Question is what gas unit has to be cut to allow for production of a ghost. 1 Medivac (and 2 marines)? Nearly 1 Siege Tank (and 1 marine, 125gas for a tank, that's why "nearly")?
This shows the problem of the ghost doesn't lie in micro only but also touches the problem of managing resources. But it all comes down to the Ghost being worthy enough.
b) 1 EMP is insufficient. To get rid of fungal, a ghost must land 2 EMP's, halving all the calculations above.
This is true for infestors with more than 100 energy but is this what you meant? If yes then by that time ghosts also have more energy for EMP. What is left is clicking fast enough :/
c) Regular movement. Unlike air units, infestors do not clump up. Most of the time when a Z moves his army around, the infestors form a line. Thus, the only time we are talking about clumped up infestors (4-6 as you said), is when the Z has move-commanded all his infestors to one location, and they have arrived to re-clump. This also needs fewer units to be around, so that they do not interfere with clumping. It would be interesting to watch some random replays just to observe general infestor behaviour in this regard.
This is very true and something I've missed. I think it comes down to if infestor line is at least 2 infestors wide and different positioning of ghosts... yeah I will definitely observe their movement in games I am going to watch.
d) The ghost is not a useful fighting unit. So the cost effectiveness of the ghost should be measured in terms of its limited utility. I won't say anything about it myself, it's not obvious, but what if the ghost does what it's supposed to do, and zero infestors remain to the Zerg. Wouldn't the supply and costs reduce the effectiveness of the Z army, just like vikings do when air units are no longer on the field? This observation ought to figure in the cost effectiveness calculations.
I guess as long as they do their job they are fine because it takes less ghosts for terran to produce to nullify infestors zerg produces, thanks to EMP being AoE. I mean, imagine number of marines saved with no fungals around. Too bad that snipe was nerfed to oblivion, blizzard should listen to Qxc :/
The last point is unfortunate to Beetlelisk, but Jinro plays the game for a living, and probably has a ton of personal experience of the interaction between the ghost and the infestor. I would love to hear more from him (and other pros) to learn myself, but I would advocate taking a pro's experience as valuable data until they themselves or other pros point out deficiencies in the experience.
So far I was addressing whines or regular posters, I think only KawaiiRice posted about ghosts not being worthy of being made, so far. Maybe I should tone down and starting more of an asking than stating that ghost should be used more, there is a reason it's not being used. But what is the reason? I would also love to hear more from Jinro, too bad that LuckyFool won't take his stance even after I PMed him.
I'm just wondering Beetlelisk, what rank are you? Please respond. And also, how long have you been playing and do you have any achievements placed in this game? Just want to see if you dodge with a "rank does not matter" statement.
I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast. It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost.
Your focus on the ghost doesn't make sense to be honest. You call the ghost anti-spell caster, yet high templar have feedback, storm which can reveal cloaked/burrowed units, as well as infestors that can fungal that reveals both cloaked and burrowed units. Obviously they aren't on the same level as the Ghost, in that regard, but they still have the tools necessary to be "anti-spellcaster" as you like to call it.
Terran players have been using ghosts for a very long time. We saw them being used plenty before the infestor buff. We still saw them in TvZ even after the Snipe nerf, yet they just weren't pulling their weight in late-game TvZ as they had before.
There is a reason Terran players don't make them as much as they used to. If you can't understand that, and still think the top korean pros need to "explore the ghost" you are delusional.
Storm revealing cloaked/burrowed units is a news to me, Liquipedia doesn't mention it. I don't know why are you mentioning other spellcasters, is it wrong if HT can also be called an anti - spellcaster unit because of feedback? I think I would rather call the HT just a spellcaster as storm is the primary ability and feedback secondary while 2 of 3 ghost's abilities aim spellcasters. I don't know where are we going with this semantics though.
I would like to know the reason why ghosts aren't used as much in TvZ and I don't find it to be delusional that ghosts are underused and should be used more.
Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight. You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled. This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality. The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this.
I misspoke. You can't load units once they are fungalled is correct. Diverting the Zerg(drop) isn't going to make him remove his infestors from the rest of his main army. Not to mention if you even EMP 2-3 infestors with your first emp, you will learn from this mistake and create overseers.
I forget what GSL season it was, but there was a game between Byun and Leenock where he went with the ghost play you're talking about. Byun did some amazing ghost play, and got lots of emps off, but it just didn't cut it. Leenock just made overseers and fungalled his ghosts to death.
Even if you divert zerg's attention you still approach infestors from the side that has less units around infestors. The average number of infestors hit by an EMP is 4-6 and goes up to 9. Test it yourself. We aren't talking about cloaking ghosts yet so what's the point in making overseers?
I'd like to see that game, I have access to pirated GSL games so maybe I will find it.
Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races.
No? Zerg can stockpile larvae in the late-game and create as many units as they have larvae and resources, Protoss can warp units pertaining to their gateway count, and Terran can only make 1 unit at a time per barracks. What exactly are you talking about when you say it is true for all the races?
We are delving into semantics again. Only protoss warping in units is the closest to making unit instantaneously. We can say that zerg late game past being maxed out point has unit production advantage (but still can't make units instantaneously) and it's not that high as zerg units are weaker and zerg still has to make more hatcheries to really abuse the amount of larvae. Both protoss and terran can make only 1 unit per production building at the same time so don't try to word it like terran is harmed by design please.
Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted. I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore.
There is a very limited potential with the raven, other than clearing creep in the mid-game, or using slow HSM to hope your opponent doesn't spread out their BL/Infestor/Corrupter army.
Avilo already said Ravens are bad, as with every other pro. I don't care if you aren't talking about the queen buff. It is the exact reason the match-up has changed considerably. This is simply because of the design philosophy of the game. Blizzard has said multiple times, Terran needs to use their early-midgame advantage to damage their opponent's economy, so they can proceed into the late-game comfortably.
Avilo said in his HotS blog he wishes for raven buff to happen so he still sees a potential in this unit. I also remember his guide that focuses on using ravens so I guess there is more to it than just hoping zerg doesn't spread his corruptors.
Yes terran has to be aggressive in early - midgame so we will see how things develope, whether it's someone revolutionizing the TvZ metagame or a new patch. That's everything I'm going to say about the queen buff and it doesn't show in any way that TvZ lategame has nothing to improve. People whined about infestors so I jumped on the topic of using ghost and I'm going to remain solely on that topic.
LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered?
It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen. My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
My reading comprehension is perfectly fine. I like how you use the argument that Terran hasn't had enough time to explore their units, even though they literally have to play with their entire army tiers for each match-up. I would much rather trust the pros who have been playing for years, and take comments from MVP(GM Zerg and Terran on Korea),Supernova, MMA, MKP over someone such as yourself, who consistently tries to flamebait and essentialy can't support any of his statements without having to say "explore your race"
Your reading comprehension is not ok if you jump to conclusions that have no relation to reality for the sole reason of attempting to gain a moral high ground. I don't know how can you say it's "perfectly fine" when I proved you wrong about you trying to guess my approach. We are talking about eras of races being overpowered, it's only true that terran didn't have to try as hard when it was the overpowered race for the longest period of time. If consider yourself flamebaited then feel free to do it, I don't care. I haven't had a chance to prove missplay in pro games yet, so far I was attacking commoners for their approach.
Why would you not cloak your ghosts? I don't even know what to say. Still saying my reading comprehension is low, yet not once have I jumped to conclusions in this topic. All i have done is refute your claims why you continue to provide your anecdotal evidence, if you can even call it that.
You said that I by talking about eras of races being overpowered, meant that it is ok, which I said not and did not mean. This the proof number 1 of your reading comprehension not being ok. The proof number 2 is you jumping to conclusions again and thinking I'm against cloaking ghosts which I also didn't say. I said we aren't talking about ghosts being cloaked yet. The problem about cloaking is it requires waiting for the ghost to have more energy so it has enough energy to 1) become cloaked which takes 25e 2) to reach it's targets while being cloaked which takes 0,9 energy / second and 3) cast an EMP. Terran wants to be aggressive which means units made are being instantly sent to the front lines so not always ghost may have enough energy to do steps 1), 2) and 3). Cloaking is of course desired by terran to use but further complicates already complicated matter of using ghosts. In an actual desire of mine to show respect to terran players you accuse me of having not I try to take the problem step by step instead of jumping right away to advanced micro solutions that aren't seen to be used and thus would require anyone trying to address my point to at very least be careful and skeptical.
And while I'm talking about using cloaked ghost I think Taeja showed a great way to EMP before engaging against StarTale_AcE, today. IMO terrans should take the example of using ghosts from the way they play TvP. In the engagement I'm talking about Taeja didn't send ghosts alone but by just a few squares ahead of the rest of the forces, cast EMPs and immediately engaged with the rest of his forces while pulling ghosts back. This allowed him to be able to immediately aid ghosts in case they are revealed and attacked. I am guessing terran attempting to EMP infestors in TvZ has an advantage because EMP has 10 range while fungal has 9 and EMP disables several spellcasters at once so especially coupling this with cloak gives terran upper hand and element of surprise which can be used to cast more EMPs than zerg casts fungals.
You not knowing storm reveals cloaked units, once again shows your limited knowledge in the game, and the fact you need to cite liquipedia shows how little you know about the overall game, and really shouldn't comment and tell Terran's what they should try to expand on to better play in TvZ.
The fact is you pulled that knowledge right out of your ass as I tested this and confirmed that storm doesn't reveal shit. Fail at reading comprehension proof number 3: confirming something by going to number 1 source for StarCraft knowledge doesn't mean showing lack of knowledge. You disregarding Liquipedia does show ignorance on your part though.
I don't feel flamebaited, all I see is your pathetic attempts at flamebaiting others, which you did succeed in doing. Why would I care about what someone like you has to say about balance?
You reply to me so you do care. You twist the meaning of my words 3 times, show ignorance and pull non existing facts out of your ass to try to discredit me so who is flamebaiting who here? Me 5:0 you, right here, right now.
This is too funny. The fact you still think storm and fungal doesn't reveal units just goes to show you really don't play this game at a high level. You used a unit testeer? Oh you mean the tester that allows you to see both sides units regardless of cloak and burrow?
This is seriously too funny. That is why I said there is no reason for me to care about what you have to say.
All you do is establish a viewpoint from watching VoDs, not knowing the actual mechanics of each respective race, and you still think you can talk about balance.
5:0 what? You're trying to say you're beating me in a debate, when your reading comprehension is a joke? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Psionic_Storm http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Fungal_Growth The best part about this, is the very fact you flat out stated fungal and storm don't affect cloaked and burrowed units, then cited liquipedia as well. You have zero credibility or knowledge of the game outside of your "VoDs" Leave the balance talk to the people in high master and beyond.
Please test things before making fun of others for their lack of knowledge. Psionic storm does not reveal cloak, but can damage cloaked units. Beetlelisk was right on that one. For anyone confused who wants confirmation, fungal growth does reveal cloak.
You then go on to say to leave the balance talk to "high master and beyond". What a terribly stupid statement. Should the drone-rush or 6pool to GM guy have more say on balance than some random gold player? How about Impa the infamous GM maphacker who proxy 2-gated his way to GM? Some "high master" people don't even know that psionic storm doesn't reveal cloak, and we're supposed to trust their opinions on balance? Hell, I've heard fully fledged pros say some mistaken things about the simple mechanics of the game. Executing one build very well can get you into GM, but it doesn't make you any smarter about balance.
You should trust what is said based on the merit of what is being said, not on the league of the person saying it.
As for pro player comments. Do you remember what Nestea said about the Zerg race in GSL 2012 Season 1 during the Ro16 group selections? He said something along the lines that Zerg has no way to beat Protoss, so his best hope was to pick another Zerg and he picked DRG. He lost to DRG and then DRG went on to win the tournament by going through Parting and Genius (two protosses).
Pro players whine about balance and say things are impossible all the time. Even really smart ones. All we've seen here is a bunch of Terrans saying that vsZ is too hard after about one month of a new patch. Think they might be a bit biased? DRG's comments amount to: "If I play perfectly, I feel like I will win." That's just a healthy attitude to have, not a comment on balance, no matter what race you play.
As for ghost vs Infestor, I too think it has been very underexplored. Terrans used to use mass ghosts well in TvZ in a certain way (mass snipe), but I've never really seen ghosts used in small amounts to supplement an army vsZ. You don't need to eliminate infestors and all fungals in order for ghosts to be effective. Even if you can just emp two infestors with one ghost, you've really helped your chances out greatly. Wouldn't you gladly trade two marines worth of supply for two less fungal growths and a chance of removing 5+ fungals? What about 4 marines for 4-10 fungals gone? There's an upper limit to your ghost numbers and mass ghosts would be pretty stupid, but a small handful of ghosts can really knock out one of Zerg's biggest threats and allow decently spread vikings to destroy the corrupters and BLs. All it takes is one 150/50 tech building and a 1+ barracks with tech labs. That is not exactly a huge infrastructure to toss 3-5 ghosts into your army.
Not sure why people would argue against pros about whether or not its easy to emp infestors .. unless you do it consistently yourself who are you to say it is viable? People need to analyze the complete picture before making statements, for example even though a ghost and infestor have a similar resource cost, which unit is easier to replace? To make ghosts, terran has to sacrifice reactors, and the cost of a barracks just to make one unit is half the cost of a hatchery which can produce 3+ units at a time.
People are also underestimating how much time terran has to accomplish this maneuver. With only 1 range up on the infestor, its not easy to get hits before fungals land. Keep in mind the terran is sieging / unsieging tanks, stimming marines, spreading vs banelings, etc, while zerg mainly just a-moves lings, while microing banes and infestors. Zerg also generally has more map control which makes it hard to do tricky things like flank with ghosts or have superior positioning.
Not to say terrans shouldn't be using ghosts more.
Thank you RenSC2 for taking your time to alone think about Ghosts in TvZ.
On June 23 2012 04:20 EienShinwa wrote: I'm just wondering Beetlelisk, what rank are you? Please respond. And also, how long have you been playing and do you have any achievements placed in this game? Just want to see if you dodge with a "rank does not matter" statement.
I have to say I hoped this question would never come. I am platinum 99% zerg, was diamond in seasons 1, and 4. I am playing basically since the release, with a few months break between end 2010 and mid 2011. If by achievements you mean won tournaments then I have none, zero. As I said in my previous post, on this point onward I will be asking terrans to get interested in using Ghosts in TvZ instead of stating this as something lacking in the gameplay and metagame.
I would very much like to dodge this question. At least LuckyFool told me in a PM I made a lot of good points.
On June 23 2012 05:06 Xyik wrote: Not sure why people would argue against pros about whether or not its easy to emp infestors .. unless you do it consistently yourself who are you to say it is viable? People need to analyze the complete picture before making statements, for example even though a ghost and infestor have a similar resource cost, which unit is easier to replace? To make ghosts, terran has to sacrifice reactors, and the cost of a barracks just to make one unit is half the cost of a hatchery which can produce 3+ units at a time.
People are also underestimating how much time terran has to accomplish this maneuver. With only 1 range up on the infestor, its not easy to get hits before fungals land. Keep in mind the terran is sieging / unsieging tanks, stimming marines, spreading vs banelings, etc, while zerg mainly just a-moves lings, while microing banes and infestors. Zerg also generally has more map control which makes it hard to do tricky things like flank with ghosts or have superior positioning.
Not to say terrans shouldn't be using ghosts more.
Not to mention, think about what Zerg units a Ghost is actually effective against. One. The infestor (in theory). OK fine, two, but seriously, queen?
Now think about what Terran units an Infestor is effective against. All of them?
The infestor is seriously a stupid (yet unfortunately necessary) unit in the current state of the game. I literally can't think of a point in a game where a zerg would regret investing in infestors. No matter what Terran composition shows up in your game, having infestors is going to be great.
Edit:
My point being that investing in infestors is always a good choice, whereas investing in ghosts can be a gamble; and this investment is a hidden cost that's hard to measure (unlike mineral/gas/production).
This ghost or raven talk is pointless anyway, it has nothing to do with the problem.
The problem is, that before the patch, TvZ had reached a point of a very fragile stability. The game was basically so close that skill was all that mattered. It was basically a broodwar matchup, like some fairy blessed the matchup and made all components fit perfectly and give a perfect matchup.
Terran had to do damage early, damage that could be done with just 4 hellions threatening, NOT ATTACKING, just threatening, and delaying the creep by a few minutes, or delaying the 3rd by a few minutes. The zerg could make some roaches to scare or kill those hellions, or lings to try and surround the hellions, the point being that the zerg had to spend larva, minerals, sometime gas, and that was enough for both races to enter the midgame on equal footings.
This is just miraculous that both races found builds that were perfectly balanced in term of setting up the game with safety and efficiency. The stars have to align for such a number of factors be able to produce such a perfect result. Sometime the terran would allin, sometime the zerg would allin, but this didn't worked often enough to deviate from standard openings, while still allowing mind games.
Using ghosts or ravens won't solve the problem of entering midgame with creep in your natural and 3 bases vs 5 or 6. This patch has destroyed the one beautiful thing that sc2 managed to produce, which was TvZ games.
On June 23 2012 05:06 Xyik wrote: Not sure why people would argue against pros about whether or not its easy to emp infestors .. unless you do it consistently yourself who are you to say it is viable? People need to analyze the complete picture before making statements, for example even though a ghost and infestor have a similar resource cost, which unit is easier to replace? To make ghosts, terran has to sacrifice reactors, and the cost of a barracks just to make one unit is half the cost of a hatchery which can produce 3+ units at a time.
If I'm not mistaken so far only KawaiiRice is officially against ghosts. At the same time we can say that zerg units are weaker so it all comes down to who has the better economy and by how much.
People are also underestimating how much time terran has to accomplish this maneuver. With only 1 range up on the infestor, its not easy to get hits before fungals land. Keep in mind the terran is sieging / unsieging tanks, stimming marines, spreading vs banelings, etc, while zerg mainly just a-moves lings, while microing banes and infestors. Zerg also generally has more map control which makes it hard to do tricky things like flank with ghosts or have superior positioning.
Not to say terrans shouldn't be using ghosts more.
Yeah but there is less ghosts needed than there is infestors so even if 1 or 2 are being fungaled the rest is casting EMPs, assuming they are spread out. it's not hard to spread out up to 4-5 ghosts. Maybe micro is easier for zerg (by how much? 1 click every 15+ seconds?) but macro for sure isn't - just compare injecting larvae to every hatchery available every 25 energy and spamming mules on one mineral line every 50 energy. And there is also the creep spread. Maybe tricky flanking with ghosts isn't necessary, maybe EMPing can be done right before engaging in most cases?
On June 23 2012 05:06 Xyik wrote: Not sure why people would argue against pros about whether or not its easy to emp infestors .. unless you do it consistently yourself who are you to say it is viable? People need to analyze the complete picture before making statements, for example even though a ghost and infestor have a similar resource cost, which unit is easier to replace? To make ghosts, terran has to sacrifice reactors, and the cost of a barracks just to make one unit is half the cost of a hatchery which can produce 3+ units at a time.
People are also underestimating how much time terran has to accomplish this maneuver. With only 1 range up on the infestor, its not easy to get hits before fungals land. Keep in mind the terran is sieging / unsieging tanks, stimming marines, spreading vs banelings, etc, while zerg mainly just a-moves lings, while microing banes and infestors. Zerg also generally has more map control which makes it hard to do tricky things like flank with ghosts or have superior positioning.
Not to say terrans shouldn't be using ghosts more.
Not to mention, think about what Zerg units a Ghost is actually effective against. One. The infestor (in theory). OK fine, two, but seriously, queen?
Now think about what Terran units an Infestor is effective against. All of them?
The infestor is seriously a stupid (yet unfortunately necessary) unit in the current state of the game. I literally can't think of a point in a game where a zerg would regret investing in infestors. No matter what Terran composition shows up in your game, having infestors is going to be great.
Edit:
My point being that investing in infestors is always a good choice, whereas investing in ghosts can be a gamble; and this investment is a hidden cost that's hard to measure (unlike mineral/gas/production).
OK but perhaps with ghost you can render those good against everything infestors useless? We have to see ghosts in actual gameplay to say how big of gamble is using them and why.
On June 23 2012 05:32 MrCon wrote: This ghost or raven talk is pointless anyway, it has nothing to do with the problem.
The problem is, that before the patch, TvZ had reached a point of a very fragile stability. The game was basically so close that skill was all that mattered. It was basically a broodwar matchup, like some fairy blessed the matchup and made all components fit perfectly and give a perfect matchup.
Terran had to do damage early, damage that could be done with just 4 hellions threatening, NOT ATTACKING, just threatening, and delaying the creep by a few minutes, or delaying the 3rd by a few minutes. The zerg could make some roaches to scare or kill those hellions, or lings to try and surround the hellions, the point being that the zerg had to spend larva, minerals, sometime gas, and that was enough for both races to enter the midgame on equal footings.
This is just miraculous that both races found builds that were perfectly balanced in term of setting up the game with safety and efficiency. The stars have to align for such a number of factors be able to produce such a perfect result. Sometime the terran would allin, sometime the zerg would allin, but this didn't worked often enough to deviate from standard openings, while still allowing mind games.
Using ghosts or ravens won't solve the problem of entering midgame with creep in your natural and 3 bases vs 5 or 6. This patch has destroyed the one beautiful thing that sc2 managed to produce, which was TvZ games.
OK, I accept that with no problem, except the OP says about general TvZ problem and not just the queen buff. People started whining about infestors so ghost was brought up as designed countermeasure. And no pro said so far WHY it's not being used exactly.
On June 23 2012 05:17 beetlelisk wrote: Thank you RenSC2 for taking your time to alone think about Ghosts in TvZ.
I'm sorry but this is a thoroughly ridiculous thing to say. So someone who affirms your perspective has taken the time to think about ghosts in TvZ (as you believe you have), but the Terrans you're talking to (including Jinro himself ffs) haven't taken the time to think about ghosts in TvZ? Ridiculous and arrogant.
oh god. just watch mvp streaming rite now. he play god damn well but still lose to zerg. i dont even know how he cud emp infester like how people been saying. too much u gotta do at once already just to stay alive. i cant even think of ways for him to cut resources to invest in some ghost and risking medivacs to snipe infesters. wellmaybe but. a pack of lings can simply overun the army. there just wasnt any infester running around for free emp. he even managed traded well throughout the game and securing the 4th. but BL+Utlsk just rolls him out. u people out there telling terrans to use ghost. might work but really just try to play terran for yourself and see how it is.
On June 23 2012 16:55 boomudead1 wrote: oh god. just watch mvp streaming rite now. he play god damn well but still lose to zerg. i dont even know how he cud emp infester like how people been saying. too much u gotta do at once already just to stay alive. i cant even think of ways for him to cut resources to invest in some ghost and risking medivacs to snipe infesters. wellmaybe but. a pack of lings can simply overun the army. there just wasnt any infester running around for free emp. he even managed traded well throughout the game and securing the 4th. but BL+Utlsk just rolls him out. u people out there telling terrans to use ghost. might work but really just try to play terran for yourself and see how it is.
Saw that game. The Zerg played godawful. He did not snipe infestors because the Zerg sent his first 10 to their death by move-commanding burrowed infestors into a scan+bio ball clearing creep... after that Mvp killed 3 bases, was up 3 base to 2, but still got rolled in the end.
On June 23 2012 05:17 beetlelisk wrote: Thank you RenSC2 for taking your time to alone think about Ghosts in TvZ.
I'm sorry but this is a thoroughly ridiculous thing to say. So someone who affirms your perspective has taken the time to think about ghosts in TvZ (as you believe you have), but the Terrans you're talking to (including Jinro himself ffs) haven't taken the time to think about ghosts in TvZ? Ridiculous and arrogant.
Like half of the people I've been discussing with here were disregarding ghosts completely, pros didn't bother posting about ghosts and the only who did - KawaiiRice - also disregarded them without much detail put into his posts. All Jinro posted about was how possible it is to hit up to 9 infestors with a single EMP. I still haven't read pros reasoning against the ghosts and saying what is the reason exactly for not using them. Everything else said between me and other posters here is a speculation.
On June 23 2012 16:55 boomudead1 wrote: oh god. just watch mvp streaming rite now. he play god damn well but still lose to zerg. i dont even know how he cud emp infester like how people been saying. too much u gotta do at once already just to stay alive. i cant even think of ways for him to cut resources to invest in some ghost and risking medivacs to snipe infesters. wellmaybe but. a pack of lings can simply overun the army. there just wasnt any infester running around for free emp. he even managed traded well throughout the game and securing the 4th. but BL+Utlsk just rolls him out. u people out there telling terrans to use ghost. might work but really just try to play terran for yourself and see how it is.
Saw that game. The Zerg played godawful. He did not snipe infestors because the Zerg sent his first 10 to their death by move-commanding burrowed infestors into a scan+bio ball clearing creep... after that Mvp killed 3 bases, was up 3 base to 2, but still got rolled in the end.
I don't think ghosts are that viable against infestors unless you catch them alone or wandering the map without detection. And that doesn't seem very likely against a decent opponent. There's too much theorycrafting in this topic IMO
The problem isn't with ghosts it's how the BL/infestor army works. Ghosts can't get in range of the infestors without being vulnerable to BL attacks. Infestors don't have to worry about siege tanks because once there are more than a handful of BL out having tanks in siege mode is suicide.
On June 24 2012 03:51 SnipedSoul wrote: The problem isn't with ghosts it's how the BL/infestor army works. Ghosts can't get in range of the infestors without being vulnerable to BL attacks. Infestors don't have to worry about siege tanks because once there are more than a handful of BL out having tanks in siege mode is suicide.
There a whole mid game before brood lords come in to play though. And ghosts can always be cloaked to safely approach infestor/BL army.
On June 24 2012 03:51 SnipedSoul wrote: The problem isn't with ghosts it's how the BL/infestor army works. Ghosts can't get in range of the infestors without being vulnerable to BL attacks. Infestors don't have to worry about siege tanks because once there are more than a handful of BL out having tanks in siege mode is suicide.
There a whole mid game before brood lords come in to play though. And ghosts can always be cloaked to safely approach infestor/BL army.
You don't need ghosts to deal with infestors before BL are out. Siege tanks are just fine against infestors if they are in siege mode. The problem is that once BL are out you can't have tanks in siege mode or you'll just blow yourself up with splash damage.
What zerg doesn't have overseers with their endgame deathball? Overseer detection range is 11 so if one is in or slightly behind your army then cloak is useless. Fungal also reveals cloaked units.
On June 23 2012 16:55 boomudead1 wrote: oh god. just watch mvp streaming rite now. he play god damn well but still lose to zerg. i dont even know how he cud emp infester like how people been saying. too much u gotta do at once already just to stay alive. i cant even think of ways for him to cut resources to invest in some ghost and risking medivacs to snipe infesters. wellmaybe but. a pack of lings can simply overun the army. there just wasnt any infester running around for free emp. he even managed traded well throughout the game and securing the 4th. but BL+Utlsk just rolls him out. u people out there telling terrans to use ghost. might work but really just try to play terran for yourself and see how it is.
Saw that game. The Zerg played godawful. He did not snipe infestors because the Zerg sent his first 10 to their death by move-commanding burrowed infestors into a scan+bio ball clearing creep... after that Mvp killed 3 bases, was up 3 base to 2, but still got rolled in the end.
there wasnt much use of infester in that mid game because first 10 or so were killed. he managed to drop zerg's 4th but had to pull back cause of all these counters. then wabam 8 or so ultralisk pops out. and that was when mvp lost all his siege and medivacs got fung by 2 or so new infesters forced to just run his rines. zerg eco is too strong even if terran went for fast 3oc build. drops bought him time till late game but not enough. and yeah mvp recorded his game on his stream. but he cud simply get out run by zerg's eco. if he were to cut resources for ghost. didnt even have enough medivacs.
On June 24 2012 03:51 SnipedSoul wrote: The problem isn't with ghosts it's how the BL/infestor army works. Ghosts can't get in range of the infestors without being vulnerable to BL attacks. Infestors don't have to worry about siege tanks because once there are more than a handful of BL out having tanks in siege mode is suicide.
There a whole mid game before brood lords come in to play though. And ghosts can always be cloaked to safely approach infestor/BL army.
You don't need ghosts to deal with infestors before BL are out. Siege tanks are just fine against infestors if they are in siege mode. The problem is that once BL are out you can't have tanks in siege mode or you'll just blow yourself up with splash damage.
What zerg doesn't have overseers with their endgame deathball? Overseer detection range is 11 so if one is in or slightly behind your army then cloak is useless. Fungal also reveals cloaked units.
Amount of people that whined about infestors earlier in this thread either doesn't make tanks or finds them to be not enough. I don't think terrans send out units to spot for siege tanks to fully utilize their range and good zergs don't send infestors alone, so most often other zerg units take siege tank shots at about 3/4 of siege tank range. How often siege tanks are manually ordered to shot infestors before they fungal? It also takes 2 siege tank shots to kill an infestor and terran also spends gas on medivacs while zerg can decide if to spend additional gas on banes to support ling infestor, which means there is more gas spent on infestors than tanks in a game, especially counting in bigger number of bases zerg usually has over terran.
What would zerg need overseers for? There are no ghosts so what, late game cloaked banshees? Dropping changelings on tanks? There is also a possibility, maybe low but still, of sniping them with vikings that are needed any way to deal with brood lords. Casting fungal on cloaked ghosts requires really good awareness of surroundings of zerg army and that's not easy with so many other tasks to do. It's effect can also be minimized by spreading ghosts and choosing terrain that allows for that.
On June 23 2012 16:55 boomudead1 wrote: oh god. just watch mvp streaming rite now. he play god damn well but still lose to zerg. i dont even know how he cud emp infester like how people been saying. too much u gotta do at once already just to stay alive. i cant even think of ways for him to cut resources to invest in some ghost and risking medivacs to snipe infesters. wellmaybe but. a pack of lings can simply overun the army. there just wasnt any infester running around for free emp. he even managed traded well throughout the game and securing the 4th. but BL+Utlsk just rolls him out. u people out there telling terrans to use ghost. might work but really just try to play terran for yourself and see how it is.
Saw that game. The Zerg played godawful. He did not snipe infestors because the Zerg sent his first 10 to their death by move-commanding burrowed infestors into a scan+bio ball clearing creep... after that Mvp killed 3 bases, was up 3 base to 2, but still got rolled in the end.
there wasnt much use of infester in that mid game because first 10 or so were killed. he managed to drop zerg's 4th but had to pull back cause of all these counters. then wabam 8 or so ultralisk pops out. and that was when mvp lost all his siege and medivacs got fung by 2 or so new infesters forced to just run his rines. zerg eco is too strong even if terran went for fast 3oc build. drops bought him time till late game but not enough. and yeah mvp recorded his game on his stream. but he cud simply get out run by zerg's eco. if he were to cut resources for ghost. didnt even have enough medivacs.
Do you know by any chance in which vod exactly is the game? There is almost 6 hours of content from June 22nd. Oh and his full nickname is LGIMMvp?
On June 24 2012 03:51 SnipedSoul wrote: The problem isn't with ghosts it's how the BL/infestor army works. Ghosts can't get in range of the infestors without being vulnerable to BL attacks. Infestors don't have to worry about siege tanks because once there are more than a handful of BL out having tanks in siege mode is suicide.
There a whole mid game before brood lords come in to play though. And ghosts can always be cloaked to safely approach infestor/BL army.
You don't need ghosts to deal with infestors before BL are out. Siege tanks are just fine against infestors if they are in siege mode. The problem is that once BL are out you can't have tanks in siege mode or you'll just blow yourself up with splash damage.
What zerg doesn't have overseers with their endgame deathball? Overseer detection range is 11 so if one is in or slightly behind your army then cloak is useless. Fungal also reveals cloaked units.
Amount of people that whined about infestors earlier in this thread either doesn't make tanks or finds them to be not enough. I don't think terrans send out units to spot for siege tanks to fully utilize their range and good zergs don't send infestors alone, so most often other zerg units take siege tank shots at about 3/4 of siege tank range. How often siege tanks are manually ordered to shot infestors before they fungal? It also takes 2 siege tank shots to kill an infestor and terran also spends gas on medivacs while zerg can decide if to spend additional gas on banes to support ling infestor, which means there is more gas spent on infestors than tanks in a game, especially counting in bigger number of bases zerg usually has over terran.
What would zerg need overseers for? There are no ghosts so what, late game cloaked banshees? Dropping changelings on tanks? There is also a possibility, maybe low but still, of sniping them with vikings that are needed any way to deal with brood lords. Casting fungal on cloaked ghosts requires really good awareness of surroundings of zerg army and that's not easy with so many other tasks to do. It's effect can also be minimized by spreading ghosts and choosing terrain that allows for that.
On June 23 2012 16:55 boomudead1 wrote: oh god. just watch mvp streaming rite now. he play god damn well but still lose to zerg. i dont even know how he cud emp infester like how people been saying. too much u gotta do at once already just to stay alive. i cant even think of ways for him to cut resources to invest in some ghost and risking medivacs to snipe infesters. wellmaybe but. a pack of lings can simply overun the army. there just wasnt any infester running around for free emp. he even managed traded well throughout the game and securing the 4th. but BL+Utlsk just rolls him out. u people out there telling terrans to use ghost. might work but really just try to play terran for yourself and see how it is.
Saw that game. The Zerg played godawful. He did not snipe infestors because the Zerg sent his first 10 to their death by move-commanding burrowed infestors into a scan+bio ball clearing creep... after that Mvp killed 3 bases, was up 3 base to 2, but still got rolled in the end.
there wasnt much use of infester in that mid game because first 10 or so were killed. he managed to drop zerg's 4th but had to pull back cause of all these counters. then wabam 8 or so ultralisk pops out. and that was when mvp lost all his siege and medivacs got fung by 2 or so new infesters forced to just run his rines. zerg eco is too strong even if terran went for fast 3oc build. drops bought him time till late game but not enough. and yeah mvp recorded his game on his stream. but he cud simply get out run by zerg's eco. if he were to cut resources for ghost. didnt even have enough medivacs.
Do you know by any chance in which vod exactly is the game? There is almost 6 hours of content from June 22nd. Oh and his full nickname is LGIMMvp?
Tanks are the most positioning dependent unit in the game. Well spread, well positioned tanks are unbelievably hard to break through before broodlords or ultras. The problem is people don't target fire the infestors and they don't have detection with their army so burrowed infestors throwing IT everywhere really screws up tank AI. An infestor based army cannot approach a properly positioned tank line unless the zerg army is way bigger or they have ultras or BL. By properly positioned tank line I mean a well spread tank line that isn't susceptible to a massive flank.
Relying on cloaked ghosts to EMP all the infestors won't work for long. Zergs may not make overseers now, but after they lose to cloaked ghosts a few times they will start to make overseers every game.
Why is there a detailed discussion at all if TvZ is broken atm? If e.g. DeMuslim can beat ForGG (Terran) as Zerg even though he played Zerg only a couple of times, it obviously is broken! This is a very conservative test for imbalance, right? You take top players, have them play off-race and see if they can win against other top-players on their race! And if that can happen at all, the game is so imbalanced it´s not even funny!
Another point I wanted to make is the following: If Blizzard decided today to revert, let´s say, the last 10 patches, would then all the Zergs and Toss who would obviously start complaining the shit out of the forums, would they also be considered balance whiners and QQers? What I want to tell you guys is that people whose only response to reasonable argumentation about balance is to blurt out "BALANCE WHINER! STOP THE QQ!!" are bullies! They´re in a superior position and, for the lack of character and moral, aim to put down good argumentation in order to stay on top!
Along these lines: just recently Avilo (Terran) was denied to participate in a "state of the game" where NO TERRAN WAS PRESENT! If not him, they could and should have invited some other Terran - how can you discuss about the state of the game when not all three races are represented?
On June 24 2012 03:51 SnipedSoul wrote: The problem isn't with ghosts it's how the BL/infestor army works. Ghosts can't get in range of the infestors without being vulnerable to BL attacks. Infestors don't have to worry about siege tanks because once there are more than a handful of BL out having tanks in siege mode is suicide.
There a whole mid game before brood lords come in to play though. And ghosts can always be cloaked to safely approach infestor/BL army.
You don't need ghosts to deal with infestors before BL are out. Siege tanks are just fine against infestors if they are in siege mode. The problem is that once BL are out you can't have tanks in siege mode or you'll just blow yourself up with splash damage.
What zerg doesn't have overseers with their endgame deathball? Overseer detection range is 11 so if one is in or slightly behind your army then cloak is useless. Fungal also reveals cloaked units.
Amount of people that whined about infestors earlier in this thread either doesn't make tanks or finds them to be not enough. I don't think terrans send out units to spot for siege tanks to fully utilize their range and good zergs don't send infestors alone, so most often other zerg units take siege tank shots at about 3/4 of siege tank range. How often siege tanks are manually ordered to shot infestors before they fungal? It also takes 2 siege tank shots to kill an infestor and terran also spends gas on medivacs while zerg can decide if to spend additional gas on banes to support ling infestor, which means there is more gas spent on infestors than tanks in a game, especially counting in bigger number of bases zerg usually has over terran.
What would zerg need overseers for? There are no ghosts so what, late game cloaked banshees? Dropping changelings on tanks? There is also a possibility, maybe low but still, of sniping them with vikings that are needed any way to deal with brood lords. Casting fungal on cloaked ghosts requires really good awareness of surroundings of zerg army and that's not easy with so many other tasks to do. It's effect can also be minimized by spreading ghosts and choosing terrain that allows for that.
On June 24 2012 04:58 boomudead1 wrote:
On June 23 2012 17:01 Ghanburighan wrote:
On June 23 2012 16:55 boomudead1 wrote: oh god. just watch mvp streaming rite now. he play god damn well but still lose to zerg. i dont even know how he cud emp infester like how people been saying. too much u gotta do at once already just to stay alive. i cant even think of ways for him to cut resources to invest in some ghost and risking medivacs to snipe infesters. wellmaybe but. a pack of lings can simply overun the army. there just wasnt any infester running around for free emp. he even managed traded well throughout the game and securing the 4th. but BL+Utlsk just rolls him out. u people out there telling terrans to use ghost. might work but really just try to play terran for yourself and see how it is.
Saw that game. The Zerg played godawful. He did not snipe infestors because the Zerg sent his first 10 to their death by move-commanding burrowed infestors into a scan+bio ball clearing creep... after that Mvp killed 3 bases, was up 3 base to 2, but still got rolled in the end.
there wasnt much use of infester in that mid game because first 10 or so were killed. he managed to drop zerg's 4th but had to pull back cause of all these counters. then wabam 8 or so ultralisk pops out. and that was when mvp lost all his siege and medivacs got fung by 2 or so new infesters forced to just run his rines. zerg eco is too strong even if terran went for fast 3oc build. drops bought him time till late game but not enough. and yeah mvp recorded his game on his stream. but he cud simply get out run by zerg's eco. if he were to cut resources for ghost. didnt even have enough medivacs.
Do you know by any chance in which vod exactly is the game? There is almost 6 hours of content from June 22nd. Oh and his full nickname is LGIMMvp?
Tanks are the most positioning dependent unit in the game. Well spread, well positioned tanks are unbelievably hard to break through before broodlords or ultras. The problem is people don't target fire the infestors and they don't have detection with their army so burrowed infestors throwing IT everywhere really screws up tank AI. An infestor based army cannot approach a properly positioned tank line unless the zerg army is way bigger or they have ultras or BL. By properly positioned tank line I mean a well spread tank line that isn't susceptible to a massive flank.
I'm not going to argue with that.
Relying on cloaked ghosts to EMP all the infestors won't work for long. Zergs may not make overseers now, but after they lose to cloaked ghosts a few times they will start to make overseers every game.
I'd like to see those few games first, to see if ghosts are worth the money. And once zergs start to make seers then all that is needed is superior viking count and I guess, EMPing while engaging.
On June 24 2012 08:09 DerBos wrote: Why is there a detailed discussion at all if TvZ is broken atm? If e.g. DeMuslim can beat ForGG (Terran) as Zerg even though he played Zerg only a couple of times, it obviously is broken! This is a very conservative test for imbalance, right? You take top players, have them play off-race and see if they can win against other top-players on their race! And if that can happen at all, the game is so imbalanced it´s not even funny!
Another point I wanted to make is the following: If Blizzard decided today to revert, let´s say, the last 10 patches, would then all the Zergs and Toss who would obviously start complaining the shit out of the forums, would they also be considered balance whiners and QQers? What I want to tell you guys is that people whose only response to reasonable argumentation about balance is to blurt out "BALANCE WHINER! STOP THE QQ!!" are bullies! They´re in a superior position and, for the lack of character and moral, aim to put down good argumentation in order to stay on top!
Along these lines: just recently Avilo (Terran) was denied to participate in a "state of the game" where NO TERRAN WAS PRESENT! If not him, they could and should have invited some other Terran - how can you discuss about the state of the game when not all three races are represented?
Avilo is known for whining even when terran was favoured in the MU, I guess that's why he wasn't invited. There should be a terran representative though in SotG.
On June 24 2012 03:51 SnipedSoul wrote: The problem isn't with ghosts it's how the BL/infestor army works. Ghosts can't get in range of the infestors without being vulnerable to BL attacks. Infestors don't have to worry about siege tanks because once there are more than a handful of BL out having tanks in siege mode is suicide.
There a whole mid game before brood lords come in to play though. And ghosts can always be cloaked to safely approach infestor/BL army.
You don't need ghosts to deal with infestors before BL are out. Siege tanks are just fine against infestors if they are in siege mode. The problem is that once BL are out you can't have tanks in siege mode or you'll just blow yourself up with splash damage.
What zerg doesn't have overseers with their endgame deathball? Overseer detection range is 11 so if one is in or slightly behind your army then cloak is useless. Fungal also reveals cloaked units.
Amount of people that whined about infestors earlier in this thread either doesn't make tanks or finds them to be not enough. I don't think terrans send out units to spot for siege tanks to fully utilize their range and good zergs don't send infestors alone, so most often other zerg units take siege tank shots at about 3/4 of siege tank range. How often siege tanks are manually ordered to shot infestors before they fungal? It also takes 2 siege tank shots to kill an infestor and terran also spends gas on medivacs while zerg can decide if to spend additional gas on banes to support ling infestor, which means there is more gas spent on infestors than tanks in a game, especially counting in bigger number of bases zerg usually has over terran.
What would zerg need overseers for? There are no ghosts so what, late game cloaked banshees? Dropping changelings on tanks? There is also a possibility, maybe low but still, of sniping them with vikings that are needed any way to deal with brood lords. Casting fungal on cloaked ghosts requires really good awareness of surroundings of zerg army and that's not easy with so many other tasks to do. It's effect can also be minimized by spreading ghosts and choosing terrain that allows for that.
On June 23 2012 16:55 boomudead1 wrote: oh god. just watch mvp streaming rite now. he play god damn well but still lose to zerg. i dont even know how he cud emp infester like how people been saying. too much u gotta do at once already just to stay alive. i cant even think of ways for him to cut resources to invest in some ghost and risking medivacs to snipe infesters. wellmaybe but. a pack of lings can simply overun the army. there just wasnt any infester running around for free emp. he even managed traded well throughout the game and securing the 4th. but BL+Utlsk just rolls him out. u people out there telling terrans to use ghost. might work but really just try to play terran for yourself and see how it is.
Saw that game. The Zerg played godawful. He did not snipe infestors because the Zerg sent his first 10 to their death by move-commanding burrowed infestors into a scan+bio ball clearing creep... after that Mvp killed 3 bases, was up 3 base to 2, but still got rolled in the end.
there wasnt much use of infester in that mid game because first 10 or so were killed. he managed to drop zerg's 4th but had to pull back cause of all these counters. then wabam 8 or so ultralisk pops out. and that was when mvp lost all his siege and medivacs got fung by 2 or so new infesters forced to just run his rines. zerg eco is too strong even if terran went for fast 3oc build. drops bought him time till late game but not enough. and yeah mvp recorded his game on his stream. but he cud simply get out run by zerg's eco. if he were to cut resources for ghost. didnt even have enough medivacs.
Do you know by any chance in which vod exactly is the game? There is almost 6 hours of content from June 22nd. Oh and his full nickname is LGIMMvp?
its on ohana where mvp is spawns topleft. vs zerg. im sure he saved it cuz i saw. yeah LGIMMvp. just check it out. the one that he went for the 3oc build and didnt get punish for. only 2 pack of lings atackign the third. no roaches at all i believe
if u cant find it might as well just check out other vZ games he played. the problem is still there. zerg eco is too strong even if he goes 3oc build. but the game above is when zerg lost 10 or so infester for no reason. still didnt matter
On June 24 2012 08:09 DerBos wrote: Why is there a detailed discussion at all if TvZ is broken atm? If e.g. DeMuslim can beat ForGG (Terran) as Zerg even though he played Zerg only a couple of times, it obviously is broken! This is a very conservative test for imbalance, right? You take top players, have them play off-race and see if they can win against other top-players on their race! And if that can happen at all, the game is so imbalanced it´s not even funny!
Another point I wanted to make is the following: If Blizzard decided today to revert, let´s say, the last 10 patches, would then all the Zergs and Toss who would obviously start complaining the shit out of the forums, would they also be considered balance whiners and QQers? What I want to tell you guys is that people whose only response to reasonable argumentation about balance is to blurt out "BALANCE WHINER! STOP THE QQ!!" are bullies! They´re in a superior position and, for the lack of character and moral, aim to put down good argumentation in order to stay on top!
Along these lines: just recently Avilo (Terran) was denied to participate in a "state of the game" where NO TERRAN WAS PRESENT! If not him, they could and should have invited some other Terran - how can you discuss about the state of the game when not all three races are represented?
Avilo is known for whining even when terran was favoured in the MU, I guess that's why he wasn't invited. There should be a terran representative though in SotG.
I know. But consider the following: Part of the reason why he could not get in, might have been that if they heard him argue reasonably now, people watching may realize something like: "Wait, this is that infamous terran whiner? Actually, he´s making some good points!". That would have made the Toss-Zerg-gentlemen-club look a bit silly all of a sudden, right? You know what happened instead? In control dared Avilo to get on the ladder and confront him!! What !? It´s like: "Shut up or I´ll beat you up!" Now that´s what I call bullying!
That's hilarious that Avilo was denied to be a part of SotG. Why the fuck did they not invite Demuslim or Illusion or KawaiiRice or some other distinguished pro?
On June 24 2012 03:51 SnipedSoul wrote: The problem isn't with ghosts it's how the BL/infestor army works. Ghosts can't get in range of the infestors without being vulnerable to BL attacks. Infestors don't have to worry about siege tanks because once there are more than a handful of BL out having tanks in siege mode is suicide.
There a whole mid game before brood lords come in to play though. And ghosts can always be cloaked to safely approach infestor/BL army.
You don't need ghosts to deal with infestors before BL are out. Siege tanks are just fine against infestors if they are in siege mode. The problem is that once BL are out you can't have tanks in siege mode or you'll just blow yourself up with splash damage.
What zerg doesn't have overseers with their endgame deathball? Overseer detection range is 11 so if one is in or slightly behind your army then cloak is useless. Fungal also reveals cloaked units.
Amount of people that whined about infestors earlier in this thread either doesn't make tanks or finds them to be not enough. I don't think terrans send out units to spot for siege tanks to fully utilize their range and good zergs don't send infestors alone, so most often other zerg units take siege tank shots at about 3/4 of siege tank range. How often siege tanks are manually ordered to shot infestors before they fungal? It also takes 2 siege tank shots to kill an infestor and terran also spends gas on medivacs while zerg can decide if to spend additional gas on banes to support ling infestor, which means there is more gas spent on infestors than tanks in a game, especially counting in bigger number of bases zerg usually has over terran.
What would zerg need overseers for? There are no ghosts so what, late game cloaked banshees? Dropping changelings on tanks? There is also a possibility, maybe low but still, of sniping them with vikings that are needed any way to deal with brood lords. Casting fungal on cloaked ghosts requires really good awareness of surroundings of zerg army and that's not easy with so many other tasks to do. It's effect can also be minimized by spreading ghosts and choosing terrain that allows for that.
On June 23 2012 16:55 boomudead1 wrote: oh god. just watch mvp streaming rite now. he play god damn well but still lose to zerg. i dont even know how he cud emp infester like how people been saying. too much u gotta do at once already just to stay alive. i cant even think of ways for him to cut resources to invest in some ghost and risking medivacs to snipe infesters. wellmaybe but. a pack of lings can simply overun the army. there just wasnt any infester running around for free emp. he even managed traded well throughout the game and securing the 4th. but BL+Utlsk just rolls him out. u people out there telling terrans to use ghost. might work but really just try to play terran for yourself and see how it is.
Saw that game. The Zerg played godawful. He did not snipe infestors because the Zerg sent his first 10 to their death by move-commanding burrowed infestors into a scan+bio ball clearing creep... after that Mvp killed 3 bases, was up 3 base to 2, but still got rolled in the end.
there wasnt much use of infester in that mid game because first 10 or so were killed. he managed to drop zerg's 4th but had to pull back cause of all these counters. then wabam 8 or so ultralisk pops out. and that was when mvp lost all his siege and medivacs got fung by 2 or so new infesters forced to just run his rines. zerg eco is too strong even if terran went for fast 3oc build. drops bought him time till late game but not enough. and yeah mvp recorded his game on his stream. but he cud simply get out run by zerg's eco. if he were to cut resources for ghost. didnt even have enough medivacs.
Do you know by any chance in which vod exactly is the game? There is almost 6 hours of content from June 22nd. Oh and his full nickname is LGIMMvp?
A good zerg will always have at least 1 Overseer in their army. The costs are negligible to the Zerg bank and it's literally just in case anyone is investing in ghosts.
From that thread: "Zerg players are just more talented. More talented people tend to play Zerg and it shows. If many of these players went into another profession they would likely be doctors or lawyers." LOL love how he links Zerg players to being doctors and lawyers, but what about scientists? T_T
On June 24 2012 13:37 BigFan wrote: From that thread: "Zerg players are just more talented. More talented people tend to play Zerg and it shows. If many of these players went into another profession they would likely be doctors or lawyers." LOL love how he links Zerg players to being doctors and lawyers, but what about scientists? T_T
On June 24 2012 13:37 BigFan wrote: From that thread: "Zerg players are just more talented. More talented people tend to play Zerg and it shows. If many of these players went into another profession they would likely be doctors or lawyers." LOL love how he links Zerg players to being doctors and lawyers, but what about scientists? T_T
The statistics are definitely interesting though
Pretty sure that's sarcasm.
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Either way, gave me a good laugh
On June 24 2012 13:37 BigFan wrote: From that thread: "Zerg players are just more talented. More talented people tend to play Zerg and it shows. If many of these players went into another profession they would likely be doctors or lawyers." LOL love how he links Zerg players to being doctors and lawyers, but what about scientists? T_T
The statistics are definitely interesting though
Pretty sure that's sarcasm.
I think he's using a line that some terrans have thrown around since the beginning of SC2 (replace Zerg with Terran) when terran was winning almost all the major championships, but they still wanted to whine about how underpowered Terran was.
-----
The stats of approximately 30% TvZ in GSL (from the Bnet thread) aren't terribly surprising. For quite a few months, Terrans have been relying on a metagame that has been nerfed. It will take some time before Terran adapts to the new metagame and that transitional period will be painful. In truth, that almost abandoned metagame is not even completely gone, but it has become harder to pull off. If you check the BeastyQT vs Morrow series in NASL playoffs, you can still watch Terrans having success with Hellions vs Zerg in the early game.
-----
I actually enjoy Avilo's stream since he plays some different and powerful lategame styles (ravens/ghosts included), but he has a long history of being a whiner. He isn't right at all for SotG. I believe QXC was in Sweden at the time, but they've stated that they would have invited him on had he been available. He's been a very high level terran and also seems to be a very reasonable person who doesn't needlessly whine. More often than not, he's asking questions or providing solutions, not whining about how unfair everything is. You certainly can't say that about Avilo. Demuslim would be a decent choice, but there were already two EG players and one EG caster on that episode and the possibility that he simply wasn't available. I have no idea about the availability of Kawaii (who can be whiney too, just not as bad as Avilo) or Illusion. Potentially also Thorzain, but I think he was traveling the world at the time.
For whatever reason, there have been very few high level foreign terrans who also posess the ability to eloquently speak about issues and provide good insight. Even Inside the Game has relied upon PainUser, who is barely a pro player, as their Terran representative. It wouldn't suprise me if JP tries to get QXC to become a full-time member of the show since he can now dedicate more of his time to SC2.
On June 24 2012 13:37 BigFan wrote: From that thread: "Zerg players are just more talented. More talented people tend to play Zerg and it shows. If many of these players went into another profession they would likely be doctors or lawyers." LOL love how he links Zerg players to being doctors and lawyers, but what about scientists? T_T
The statistics are definitely interesting though
Pretty sure that's sarcasm.
Agreed. At least half the people contributing to that thread, however, certainly aren´t (becoming) doctors, lawyers or scientists by the the looks of the illogical bs they post.
At the risk of repeating myself, there is an objective way of detecting imbalance and it´s already been done! Top players can off-race and play top-players of their own race, like DeMuslim did vs. ForGG the other day (and won). The fact that DeMuslim won (even if it´s only once) the game is imbalanced by a solid amount because this CAN NOT HAPPEN in a balanced situation, full stop! It makes all arguments like "hellions are still super strong" or "terran still has the most awesome tier 1 units" totally futile! Agreed? If not, I would be psyched to hear arguments!
Practically all arguments in balance discussions so far are useless because they have no experimental bases, and often, they are ad-hoc hypotheses! E.g. "Zerg players are more talented and that is in fact the reason for them winning more often, now that the game is balanced".
Let´s look at this with an analogy:
Imagine a car race where car A is under the unproven suspicion of having 50% more engine power than car B (and let´s say that couldn´t be easily mechanically tested). Car A constantly wins more often. Driver of car B complains that car A is overpowered but driver of car A says "Oh, I´m just more talented than you are because I win more often even though YOUR car is actually overpowered. Stop the whining and l2d!". But arguing about that leads to nothing, of course, because there is no data available other than the current results which could arise from BOTH scenarios (driver A more talented vs. car A overpowered). But then drivers swap cars and now the win/loss statistic inverts. Oops! That would obviously kill driver A´s argument and SHOW that car A is in fact overpowered! No excuses possible! And I am saying that this, in similar form, HAS ALREADY HAPPENED with the game of DeMuslim vs. ForGG!
On June 24 2012 15:25 DerBos wrote: At the risk of repeating myself, there is an objective way of detecting imbalance and it´s already been done! Top players can off-race and play top-players of their own race, like DeMuslim did vs. ForGG the other day (and won). The fact that DeMuslim won (even if it´s only once) the game is imbalanced by a solid amount because this CAN NOT HAPPEN in a balanced situation, full stop! It makes all arguments like "hellions are still super strong" or "terran still has the most awesome tier 1 units" totally futile! Agreed? If not, I would be psyched to hear arguments!
I bolded the important part. Your entire argument thus far is based on a hilariously small sample size. Don't talk about experimental bases when you're basing everything you say on one game. It might be a fun experiment. This, instead, is called cognitive bias, and I'm sure you would have justified ("objectively") any outcome for the DeMuslim/ForGG game to defend your stance that TvZ is totally "broken atm".
On June 24 2012 15:25 DerBos wrote: Imagine a car race where car A is under the unproven suspicion of having 50% more engine power than car B (and let´s say that couldn´t be easily mechanically tested). Car A constantly wins more often. Driver of car B complains that car A is overpowered but driver of car A says "Oh, I´m just more talented than you are because I win more often even though YOUR car is actually overpowered. Stop the whining and l2d!". But arguing about that leads to nothing, of course, because there is no data available other than the current results which could arise from BOTH scenarios (driver A more talented vs. car A overpowered). But then drivers swap cars and now the win/loss statistic inverts. Oops! That would obviously kill driver A´s argument and SHOW that car A is in fact overpowered! No excuses possible! And I am saying that this, in similar form, HAS ALREADY HAPPENED with the game of DeMuslim vs. ForGG!
This "Zerg players are just more talented" is a throwback to when ZvT (ZvX, even) was a silly joke, but some players (including at least one high profile player posting here) insisted that the Terrans were just that much better. Yes, it was actually argued just like this. Yes, tears flowed. Even the OP admits to thinking that Terran players were just playing better. Maybe that was the case. Or, maybe Terran was super broken. Or, maybe the better players were just playing the super broken race, which happened to be Terran, because they liked winning. Or it could have been anything to justify that level of dominance.
Going back to your silly & transparent analogy, imagine that Car A loses when the drivers swap. Driver of Car B complains that he did not have enough practice with Car A, but insists that Car A is definitely much more powerful.
No excuses possible, unless the data doesn't support the hypothesis. Right?
It seems that it's Zerg's turn to be overpowered. This, too, shall pass. Or it won't, and everyone ought to switch to Zerg, if they're really unbeatable in non-mirrors.
It just seems like an adapt, switch, or quit situation, to me. It's not like it hasn't happened before.
TL;DR I stopped after you said that because zerg can scout better terran can't win as much with 1-2 base all ins and that is somehow a bad thing. I'll admit ZvT is currently my best MU, but it's not because of the buffs it's because I learned the double evo infestor style.
On June 24 2012 13:37 BigFan wrote: From that thread: "Zerg players are just more talented. More talented people tend to play Zerg and it shows. If many of these players went into another profession they would likely be doctors or lawyers." LOL love how he links Zerg players to being doctors and lawyers, but what about scientists? T_T
The statistics are definitely interesting though
Pretty sure that's sarcasm.
Agreed. At least half the people contributing to that thread, however, certainly aren´t (becoming) doctors, lawyers or scientists by the the looks of the illogical bs they post.
At the risk of repeating myself, there is an objective way of detecting imbalance and it´s already been done! Top players can off-race and play top-players of their own race, like DeMuslim did vs. ForGG the other day (and won). The fact that DeMuslim won (even if it´s only once) the game is imbalanced by a solid amount because this CAN NOT HAPPEN in a balanced situation, full stop! It makes all arguments like "hellions are still super strong" or "terran still has the most awesome tier 1 units" totally futile! Agreed? If not, I would be psyched to hear arguments!
Practically all arguments in balance discussions so far are useless because they have no experimental bases, and often, they are ad-hoc hypotheses! E.g. "Zerg players are more talented and that is in fact the reason for them winning more often, now that the game is balanced".
Let´s look at this with an analogy:
Imagine a car race where car A is under the unproven suspicion of having 50% more engine power than car B (and let´s say that couldn´t be easily mechanically tested). Car A constantly wins more often. Driver of car B complains that car A is overpowered but driver of car A says "Oh, I´m just more talented than you are because I win more often even though YOUR car is actually overpowered. Stop the whining and l2d!". But arguing about that leads to nothing, of course, because there is no data available other than the current results which could arise from BOTH scenarios (driver A more talented vs. car A overpowered). But then drivers swap cars and now the win/loss statistic inverts. Oops! That would obviously kill driver A´s argument and SHOW that car A is in fact overpowered! No excuses possible! And I am saying that this, in similar form, HAS ALREADY HAPPENED with the game of DeMuslim vs. ForGG!
I'm a Terran player and this just sounds stupid to me. The analogy doesn't make sense, sample size is way too small, etc etc
On June 24 2012 15:25 DerBos wrote: At the risk of repeating myself, there is an objective way of detecting imbalance and it´s already been done! Top players can off-race and play top-players of their own race, like DeMuslim did vs. ForGG the other day (and won). The fact that DeMuslim won (even if it´s only once) the game is imbalanced by a solid amount because this CAN NOT HAPPEN in a balanced situation, full stop! It makes all arguments like "hellions are still super strong" or "terran still has the most awesome tier 1 units" totally futile! Agreed? If not, I would be psyched to hear arguments!
I bolded the important part. Your entire argument thus far is based on a hilariously small sample size. Don't talk about experimental bases when you're basing everything you say on one game. It might be a fun experiment. This, instead, is called cognitive bias, and I'm sure you would have justified ("objectively") any outcome for the DeMuslim/ForGG game to defend your stance that TvZ is totally "broken atm".
Sorry, but you´re plain wrong and you should know that cognitive bias has nothing to do with my reasoning. If not, let me explain: Sample size in that case doesn´t matter. It´s sufficient to find one case in this "test" because this is such a ridiculous situation: Everybody knows how hard professional players have to work to get to their level and this is specific for their race. If they switched races it used to take them many weeks to months to get up to an equivalent level again! Now, since DeMuslim just played a few games on ladder as Zerg and managed to win against a Terran of similar skill level as his, it´s achingly clear that TvZ is currently broken! You don't need statistics for the obvious! (the same way you don´t need to hit your thumb with a hammer more than once to find that it hurts) In an even pretty imbalanced game, this just can not happen! This can happen only if the game is absolutely broken! Mind you that the DeMuslim - ForGG game was standard, no lucky 6 pool or other bs - the game went on for more than 30 min!
Your other point: My "silly & transparent" analogy: The thing is that driver B in car A did not lose! This was my whole point! I wouldn´t have brought the story up, if DeMuslim had played a bunch of games as Zerg, lost them and complained about how easy Zerg is but he did not have enough practice!! He WON instead!!!
I was actually hoping that now, that such a thing happened, people would just agree and go like "hm, in fact, that looks like good evidence. That really should not be possible at all.". Instead you´re coming up with some ill-applied statistical terms in a poor and unsuccessful attempt to dismantle my argument.
On June 24 2012 17:54 MinusPlus wrote: It just seems like an adapt, switch, or quit situation, to me. It's not like it hasn't happened before.
On June 24 2012 17:54 MinusPlus wrote: It seems that it's Zerg's turn to be overpowered.
Sad and disappointing comments as well. And I hope and assume that Blizzard doesn´t think the same way. Because then it would be more than that - it would be irresponsible. There are professional players out there whose income depends on their success. So that would force them into switching race or find another job. I really don´t think Bilzzard aimed to induce imbalance, also not back when Terra was OP over Zerg.
On June 24 2012 23:40 Chaggi wrote:
I'm a Terran player and this just sounds stupid to me. The analogy doesn't make sense, sample size is way too small, etc etc
That´s the kind of "argument" I expected from certain people. "sounds stupid", "doesn´t make sense" and repeating sth. from the comment before yours, followed by "etc. etc.". Good job! What exactly was your argument?
im a terran and pretty much everytime vs zerg, so i was like 'ive never played zerg,i dont know any strategy,but ill put me against a bot on VERY HARD difficulty and ill play zerg and see how it goes (remember that was my 1st time playing zerg EVER) i fucking demolished the bot with zerg/bane infestor composition and i didnt break a sweat,it was just so fucking easy i dont even know how playing zerg is anywhere near hard,i ever played rly greedy in the beginning and u know bots make early pushes (bigger with every difficulty) and i didnt had almsot any units and when i saw the push and had larva inject, was like, NP BY THE TIME U COME ILL HAVE 80 ZERGLINGS
On June 25 2012 03:41 SDQKRambo wrote: im a terran and pretty much everytime vs zerg, so i was like 'ive never played zerg,i dont know any strategy,but ill put me against a bot on VERY HARD difficulty and ill play zerg and see how it goes (remember that was my 1st time playing zerg EVER) i fucking demolished the bot with zerg/bane infestor composition and i didnt break a sweat,it was just so fucking easy i dont even know how playing zerg is anywhere near hard,i ever played rly greedy in the beginning and u know bots make early pushes (bigger with every difficulty) and i didnt had almsot any units and when i saw the push and had larva inject, was like, NP BY THE TIME U COME ILL HAVE 80 ZERGLINGS
Hopefully this is sarcasm. Anyone who has any clue in this game whatsoever can beat a very hard bot as any race.
On June 25 2012 03:41 SDQKRambo wrote: im a terran and pretty much everytime vs zerg, so i was like 'ive never played zerg,i dont know any strategy,but ill put me against a bot on VERY HARD difficulty and ill play zerg and see how it goes (remember that was my 1st time playing zerg EVER) i fucking demolished the bot with zerg/bane infestor composition and i didnt break a sweat,it was just so fucking easy i dont even know how playing zerg is anywhere near hard,i ever played rly greedy in the beginning and u know bots make early pushes (bigger with every difficulty) and i didnt had almsot any units and when i saw the push and had larva inject, was like, NP BY THE TIME U COME ILL HAVE 80 ZERGLINGS
Ya, sorry bro, we have to look at balance at the top level (and for sure not vs. bot). I am hovering between plat and diamond and have little problems with Zerg as Terran so I don´t argue for my case - I was talking about the game at the top level and I would really like to hear back from MinusPlus on my reply!
yes i know,i wanted to point out how easy and safe i felt while playing it,and its rly hard to feel this way as terran especially vs zerg nowadays, so yeh i defo think zerg imba
On June 25 2012 04:45 DerBos wrote: ... and I would really like to hear back from MinusPlus on my reply!
Fine. The way your post is really annoying, but I'll respond just this once.
On June 25 2012 03:31 DerBos wrote: Sorry, but you´re plain wrong and you should know that cognitive bias has nothing to do with my reasoning. If not, let me explain: Sample size in that case doesn´t matter. It´s sufficient to find one case in this "test" because this is such a ridiculous situation:
The ridiculous situation being that a high level player offraced and won a single game. Just so we're clear. And yes, cognitive bias has everything to do with your reasoning. It's not sufficient to find one case in this test.
On June 25 2012 03:31 DerBos wrote: Now, since DeMuslim just played a few games on ladder as Zerg and managed to win against a Terran of similar skill level as his, it´s achingly clear that TvZ is currently broken! You don't need statistics for the obvious!
"Similar skill level" is arguable; no it isn't; and, yes you do, if you intend to "prove" anything.
On June 25 2012 03:31 DerBos wrote: In an even pretty imbalanced game, this just can not happen! This can happen only if the game is absolutely broken! Mind you that the DeMuslim - ForGG game was standard, no lucky 6 pool or other bs - the game went on for more than 30 min!
Because SC2 is a perfectly balanced game, at all points during the game, which has literally no elements of luck, attentiveness, or player psychology.
On June 25 2012 03:31 DerBos wrote: Your other point: My "silly & transparent" analogy: The thing is that driver B in car A did not lose! This was my whole point! I wouldn´t have brought the story up, if DeMuslim had played a bunch of games as Zerg, lost them and complained about how easy Zerg is but he did not have enough practice!! He WON instead!!!
So, you wouldn't have mentioned it -- "it" being a single game, apparently, -- if it didn't support your argument, and you would have dismissed it if it had been brought up as an argument against your thinking that Zerg is "obviously" overpowered against T, due to lack of practice, difference in skill, or some other such nonsense.
Ok.
On June 25 2012 03:31 DerBos wrote: I was actually hoping that now, that such a thing happened, people would just agree and go like "hm, in fact, that looks like good evidence. That really should not be possible at all.". Instead you´re coming up with some ill-applied statistical terms in a poor and unsuccessful attempt to dismantle my argument.
Don't kid yourself. When Zerg (for instance) had severe problems in the reverse matchup, a lot of people put a lot of effort into dismissing all of their complaints as "insufficient evidence". You haven't even scratched the surface with your excited rambling about this single case.
On June 25 2012 03:31 DerBos wrote: Sad and disappointing comments as well. And I hope and assume that Blizzard doesn´t think the same way. Because then it would be more than that - it would be irresponsible. There are professional players out there whose income depends on their success. So that would force them into switching race or find another job. I really don´t think Bilzzard aimed to induce imbalance, also not back when Terra was OP over Zerg.
So much that it hurts. A progamer's job is not to win in his or her favorite way; it's to win. They're professionals playing a game that's still being made, and that has its own implications (both good and bad). I have no idea what the last bit of your last sentence is supposed to mean.
On June 24 2012 23:40 Chaggi wrote: I'm a Terran player and this just sounds stupid to me. The analogy doesn't make sense, sample size is way too small, etc etc
That´s the kind of "argument" I expected from certain people. "sounds stupid", "doesn´t make sense" and repeating sth. from the comment before yours, followed by "etc. etc.". Good job! What exactly was your argument?
Those "certain people" being anyone who doesn't agree that Terran is obviously crippled to the point of unplayability at this point, I assume.
And DerBos...even the people who sympathize with you would disown you for arguing that a single game -- or a single series, even, -- proves whatever it is you're trying to say objectively. You're really going to have to try harder. Maybe a lengthy blog about how your argument is right because of how many people agree with you would work.
Regardless, I don't care. I really only posted to call you out on arguing in the most idiotic way possible. Note that I'm not calling you an idiot here, just pointing out that you argue like one. A painfully uninformed one, at that...like that person who took a stab at SotG for not inviting avilo on to talk about balance.
Oh wait. That was also you, Der.
Edit: Oh, also, you're obviously free to PM if you'd like to discuss something further, DerBos. I may or may not continue to be dismissive, of course.
One game is not a significant sample size, no matter what. Even if some random bronze terran switched to zerg and beat a pro terran in one game, that doesn't mean anything. There are a whole lot of very small decisions that have very large impacts on the game of Starcraft that create a large amount of variance in the winner. Demuslim is a reasonably good pro, with good mechanics, and a good understanding of TvZ and ZvT, it's not surprising that he was able to take a single game off a terran in ZvT. You'll need a bigger sample size... like someone who plays ZvT and TvZ an equal amount.
Here's an interesting one: Morrow. He plays ZvT and ZvP, but he plays TvZ rather than the ZvZ mirror. From 2012/3/10 - 2012/5/9 (last 2 months before patch), he went: TvZ 23-10 (69.7%), totally imbalanced in Terran's favor ZvT 16-15 (51.6%), reasonably balanced.
From 2012/5/10 - 2012/6/21 (patch to most recent), he went: TvZ 7-15 (31.8%), totally imbalanced in Zerg's favor. ZvT 14-13 (51.9%), reasonably balanced.
All stats are from TLPD international database. People screaming about Terran's lack of power, will note the winrate in TvZ drop from 69.7% to 31.8% and use that as evidence to claim imbalance. People who say that it's actually balanced will note his 51.6% ZvT pre patch and 51.9% ZvT post patch and note that it's still extremely balanced.
The numbers are extremely conflicting. And what they probably show is that Morrow pre-patch had a very good understanding of TvZ and knew exactly how to abuse it (Terran OP with good knowledge prepatch?). Since the patch, his understanding of the matchup is gone and so far he hasn't learned how to abuse Terran as Zerg either. There is also the possibility of different opponent levels throwing off the stats.
Unfortunately, the pro level's best hope for showing ZvT balance still led to inconclusive evidence.
Wow, you should really go into politics the way you´re able to bend facts, sound smart and eloquently work on making my argument look silly! Good job! Really well done!
Ok, let´s make one thing clear once and for all: To find the obvious you don´t need statistics! It may be hard to swallow for you but it just is exactly so. I am a scientist and I can give you shit loads of examples of experiments where you need statistics and the same amount where you just don´t and that would be one of them!
If you think you can disagree then I suggest you read up on the matter before putting out bs to make a point!
On June 25 2012 12:33 MinusPlus wrote: And DerBos...even the people who sympathize with you would disown you for arguing that a single game -- or a single series, even, -- proves whatever it is you're trying to say objectively. You're really going to have to try harder.
I absolutely don´t. For the reasons I gave over and over again! And I certainly won´t start a blog and get opinions and support and what not. That´s politics! It´s got very little to do with the truth. People are stupid! To get the majority doesn´t mean shit with regards to whether it´s right or not! I can totally see that people like you, sadly, will succeed with your way to put things even though you apparently have a significant lack of understanding of the logics behind the situation.
On June 25 2012 13:04 RenSC2 wrote: One game is not a significant sample size, no matter what. Even if some random bronze terran switched to zerg and beat a pro terran in one game, that doesn't mean anything.
No, one example is enough in this case. It´s really strange that nobody here seems to get it! Like I said before, there are tests where you don´t need statistics and that would clearly be one of them! And towards the latter: That would obviously never happen but if it did, that would be an even clearer case!
Btw, here´s sth. that might be of interest if people did not already see that:
On June 25 2012 13:04 RenSC2 wrote: Here's an interesting one: Morrow. He plays ZvT and ZvP, but he plays TvZ rather than the ZvZ mirror. From 2012/3/10 - 2012/5/9 (last 2 months before patch), he went: TvZ 23-10 (69.7%), totally imbalanced in Terran's favor ZvT 16-15 (51.6%), reasonably balanced.
From 2012/5/10 - 2012/6/21 (patch to most recent), he went: TvZ 7-15 (31.8%), totally imbalanced in Zerg's favor. ZvT 14-13 (51.9%), reasonably balanced.
I had not looked into the numbers (Morrow) you provided so far, thanks btw, very interesting. I feel urged to clarify that in Morrow´s case you actually do need statistics because he plays both T and Z equally well (?). The beauty in the DeMuslim vs. ForGG "test" is that DeMuslim has little expertise as Zerg, hence creating a very unfair situation that can only result in a win for him if the game is solidly imbalanced! Just because this case was so extreme, there is no need for statistics.That was my whole point!
For the Morrow stat.s: Morrow´s TvZ worsened immensely with the patch. Now, note that he played multiple Zerg players. But in contrast to his TvZ, only one player´s game changed in his ZvT, namely his own, because his Terran opponents stayed the same pre- and post-patch. So the drop in his Terran performance is based on multiple data points (Zerg players) whereas his ZvT performance pre- and post-patch is influenced by only one player, himself. The fact that his ZvT stayed essentially the same is surprising, but since Terran did not get changed, that strongly suggests that he didn´t exploit the new queen´s potential. Actually, it leaves little room for other explanations because the queen buff´s intention was to strengthen Zerg and apparently did so, looking at his own TvZ and basically all other top Terran´s TvZs and top Zerg´s ZvTs, respectively!
Q: Everyone is saying that Zerg is OP, what do you think? A: Zerg definitely got more powerful, but personally I just feel that other races were sniping zergs too easily before, so now they are finding zergs hard. ZvP hasn't changed match, ZvT is improved, because Terrans are too focused (affected) on the queens, so they are playing very cowardly in ZvT, that's why this phenomenon exists now.
So he's saying Terran's aren't exploring new ways to hit Zerg early.
Q: Everyone is saying that Zerg is OP, what do you think? A: Zerg definitely got more powerful, but personally I just feel that other races were sniping zergs too easily before, so now they are finding zergs hard. ZvP hasn't changed match, ZvT is improved, because Terrans are too focused (affected) on the queens, so they are playing very cowardly in ZvT, that's why this phenomenon exists now.
So he's saying Terran's aren't exploring new ways to hit Zerg early.
So you just read what Violet said and none of the others.
Even MKP say it's the most unbalanced matchup in history, oh wait, MKP sucks we can't trust him right?
Q: Everyone is saying that Zerg is OP, what do you think? A: Zerg definitely got more powerful, but personally I just feel that other races were sniping zergs too easily before, so now they are finding zergs hard. ZvP hasn't changed match, ZvT is improved, because Terrans are too focused (affected) on the queens, so they are playing very cowardly in ZvT, that's why this phenomenon exists now.
So he's saying Terran's aren't exploring new ways to hit Zerg early.
So you just read what Violet said and none of the others.
Even MKP say it's the most unbalanced matchup in history, oh wait, MKP sucks we can't trust him right?
On June 28 2012 19:46 yeint wrote: Well, according to Idra, Zerg needs either better scouting or an everything-proof opening.
It seems he got both.
And he sill won't admit that Z is imba against T right now, getting BOTH better scouting and an almos ALL-PROOF opening at the same time seems a bit like an overkill doesn't it? Especially when snipe got nerfed and ruined completely the late-game anyways.
Q: Everyone is saying that Zerg is OP, what do you think? A: Zerg definitely got more powerful, but personally I just feel that other races were sniping zergs too easily before, so now they are finding zergs hard. ZvP hasn't changed match, ZvT is improved, because Terrans are too focused (affected) on the queens, so they are playing very cowardly in ZvT, that's why this phenomenon exists now.
So he's saying Terran's aren't exploring new ways to hit Zerg early.
So you just read what Violet said and none of the others.
Even MKP say it's the most unbalanced matchup in history, oh wait, MKP sucks we can't trust him right?
because terrans say zerg is too powerful and zergs say terran need to find new ways to play... so? Nobody thinks mkp sucks. for me he is the best terran in the world. Doesn't mean he is always right.
I like how when Terrans were doing well with ghosts and hellions the zergs were crying for nerf and now that they are on the other side of the coin they are telling Terrans what they are doing is wrong and should find a new build.
On July 01 2012 02:36 Debian wrote: I like how when Terrans were doing well with ghosts and hellions the zergs were crying for nerf and now that they are on the other side of the coin they are telling Terrans what they are doing is wrong and should find a new build.
You do realize that's exactly what terrans said then too.
On the topic of the matchup, regardless of balance I now find it boring to watch due to the lack of any pressure in the early game. The trend of essentially nr15 games nowadays turns me off to watching the gsl.
Tonight is pretty ugly for Terran in GSL. Zerg just seem to have too much @ ~ 10 min and the terran timmings attacks to slow them down dont even come close to even doing damage. Least vs Protoss Terran does have powerful timmings the can kill the protoss. In all 5 games so far I still don't get why Terran even builds 6-8 hellions if they arent even going to use them but I guess they can't. Anyway not a something I enjoy watching not only the one sidedness and snowballing but I enjoy powerful timing attacks and the micro and decisions used to hold them off & Zerg seems largly immue to these days.
On June 25 2012 13:04 RenSC2 wrote: One game is not a significant sample size, no matter what. Even if some random bronze terran switched to zerg and beat a pro terran in one game
That is like saying"If there is a god,then tommorow sun will not rise.".So you spend 24 hours in the dark and then you say :"That does not proof anything.".
On June 25 2012 13:04 RenSC2 wrote: One game is not a significant sample size, no matter what. Even if some random bronze terran switched to zerg and beat a pro terran in one game
That is like saying"If there is a god,then tommorow sun will not rise.".So you spend 24 hours in the dark and then you say :"That does not proof anything.".
Proving existence is not the same as proving balance. Proving existence only requires one example of proof.
For example, Taeja, BeatyQT, and Sting all qualified for the TSL and all of them beat at least two zergs between the Ro32 and the final. Any one of those victories proves that a Terran can still win an online qualifier even when playing two or more zerg opponents (proof of existence). However, none of those victories and not even the three of them combined prove that Terran is balanced.
The example initially given (which I responded to) only proved that Demuslim could beat a quality Terran player on ladder while using Zerg. There are too many other variables at play to use that one game to draw conclusions on balance. And that will be true of any single game of Starcraft 2.
I find it hilarious that the Terrans are currently complaining while not too long ago they were on top of everyone. Protoss had this issue too, guess what happened aside a few smaller buffs? They figured out a way to deal with things.
On July 11 2012 07:26 Aelonius wrote: I find it hilarious that the Terrans are currently complaining while not too long ago they were on top of everyone. Protoss had this issue too, guess what happened aside a few smaller buffs? They figured out a way to deal with things.
Maybe it's time for you to learn to adapt too
Terran doesn't seem to be able to win anything atm, regardless if they play against zerg or not, just take todays TSL qualifer, there were 8 Terrans left during the RO of 32 with 8 Zergs and the rest protoss. only two of those games were Terran vs Zerg and yet only 1 Terran made it through only to lose 2-0 against another protoss.
Seriously, Terran players are fucking horrible atm, that's all there is to it.
On July 11 2012 07:26 Aelonius wrote: I find it hilarious that the Terrans are currently complaining while not too long ago they were on top of everyone. Protoss had this issue too, guess what happened aside a few smaller buffs? They figured out a way to deal with things.
Maybe it's time for you to learn to adapt too
This is a late game issue. There's nothing to adapt to because the design is fundamentally flawed. Terran production infrastructure makes Terran tech switching the slowest by far, yet they are the only race that has to counter Zerg T3 with completely different compositions.
Protoss counters Zerg T3 with blink stalkers and a handful of support units (HT + archon toilet). All of those units are created from gateways.
In TvP, the situation is the same - colossus have one counter (vikings), HT/archon has another (ghosts). But the difference is that colossus count can be scouted and viking production adjusted accordingly. In TvZ lategame the Zerg can go from 0 broods to 10+ with corruptor support in under a minute.
This is not a problem in PvZ because the bulk of the army will be the same regardless of broodlord numbers, and a mothership + archons is useful even if the toilet isn't needed. Vikings are dead weight.
Maybe a fully upgraded sky terran could handle it, but it's not possible to get to that point without dying because the units are so terrible in low numbers. And I tend to think sky terran is overrated by silly theorycrafting that ignore realities of production.
Yes, full energy BCs with Yamato can take on equal supply of corruptors. But after they win that one battle, they have no more energy whereas rebuilding corruptors is just a matter of resources banked. And those corruptors are immediately useful.
Basically, if the Zerg gets to a lategame composition comfortably, you can't beat them. The matchup was balanced because that "comfortably" part was not a given. With large maps and the hyper-economic, super-safe 4-6 queen double expand, the "comfortably" part is guaranteed unless Terran goes for some sort of bit by bit SCV train push.
TL;DR - Terran T3 is shit and has always been, Terran late game production is shit and has always been, and any balance change intended to make it impossible for Terran to deny an army-less Zerg a third base will result in both races being at full late game strength. In this case the Terran will always lose because of fundamentally bad design.
On July 11 2012 07:26 Aelonius wrote: I find it hilarious that the Terrans are currently complaining while not too long ago they were on top of everyone. Protoss had this issue too, guess what happened aside a few smaller buffs? They figured out a way to deal with things.
Maybe it's time for you to learn to adapt too
Terran doesn't seem to be able to win anything atm, regardless if they play against zerg or not, just take todays TSL qualifer, there were 8 Terrans left during the RO of 32 with 8 Zergs and the rest protoss. only two of those games were Terran vs Zerg and yet only 1 Terran made it through only to lose 2-0 against another protoss.
Seriously, Terran players are fucking horrible atm, that's all there is to it.
Honestly, I don't understand how its fair that a terran player has to micro like a mad man, multi drop etc etc just to MAYBE beat a zerg. Please tell me how that is fair? You zerg players literally fucking sit there all game, then push out whenever the fuck you want and win.
On July 11 2012 07:26 Aelonius wrote: I find it hilarious that the Terrans are currently complaining while not too long ago they were on top of everyone. Protoss had this issue too, guess what happened aside a few smaller buffs? They figured out a way to deal with things.
Maybe it's time for you to learn to adapt too
Terran doesn't seem to be able to win anything atm, regardless if they play against zerg or not, just take todays TSL qualifer, there were 8 Terrans left during the RO of 32 with 8 Zergs and the rest protoss. only two of those games were Terran vs Zerg and yet only 1 Terran made it through only to lose 2-0 against another protoss.
Seriously, Terran players are fucking horrible atm, that's all there is to it.
Honestly, I don't understand how its fair that a terran player has to micro like a mad man, multi drop etc etc just to MAYBE beat a zerg. Please tell me how that is fair? You zerg players literally fucking sit there all game, then push out whenever the fuck you want and win.
On July 16 2012 00:27 IceBurg wrote: Terrans QQ after every patch but then a few months later they are winning everything again. Learn new strats or change race. Easy.
It's already "a few months later". We're not winning anything.
On July 16 2012 00:27 IceBurg wrote: Terrans QQ after every patch but then a few months later they are winning everything again. Learn new strats or change race. Easy.
It's already "a few months later". We're not winning anything.
Just to give that statement some substance, and also a different perspective. I took a ton of recent tournaments, major and minor from liquipedia that had race distribution in latter rounds. I want you to look at it from my point of view as a casual terran that enjoys watching terrans play. Recently, I've had very little to spectate anywhere.
On July 16 2012 00:27 IceBurg wrote: Terrans QQ after every patch but then a few months later they are winning everything again. Learn new strats or change race. Easy.
It's already "a few months later". We're not winning anything.
Just to give that statement some substance, and also a different perspective. I took a ton of recent tournaments, major and minor from liquipedia that had race distribution in latter rounds. I want you to look at it from my point of view as a casual terran that enjoys watching terrans play. Recently, I've had very little to spectate anywhere.
WCS France
WCS UK
[b]WCS South America
WCS Europe Combined
WCS China
WCS Chile
WCS Canada
WCS Argentina
Homestory Cup V
Dreamhack Summer
Gigabyte lan
No. Zerg players are just better and probably more handsome than the Terrans. The patch only exposed the Terrans who sick, which is every one of them
On July 16 2012 00:27 IceBurg wrote: Terrans QQ after every patch but then a few months later they are winning everything again. Learn new strats or change race. Easy.
It's already "a few months later". We're not winning anything.
Just to give that statement some substance, and also a different perspective. I took a ton of recent tournaments, major and minor from liquipedia that had race distribution in latter rounds. I want you to look at it from my point of view as a casual terran that enjoys watching terrans play. Recently, I've had very little to spectate anywhere. + Show Spoiler +
WCS France
WCS UK
[b]WCS South America
WCS Europe Combined
WCS China
WCS Chile
WCS Canada
WCS Argentina
Homestory Cup V
Dreamhack Summer
Gigabyte lan
Just to show that the statement isn't true at all.
Four of the last five TSL qualifiers were won by Terrans. That was from 2012/7/4 to 2012/7/12, including both of the last two Korean qualifiers (Korean = typically the highest level of play). These are open tournaments, not invites with potential skewed racial distributions based on past success or something like the NASL where all but one terran went out when terran was at its lowest point.
I'm starting to believe in what I'll call the "Four Month Theory of Balance". The theory goes like this: Month One post patch: The players of the buffed race learn how to really take advantage of the patch at the top levels and change the meta-game by the end of the first month. Month Two post patch: The top level information filters down to lower levels (lower level pros and semi-pros). The top level players of the other races slowly learn how to deal with the new meta-game by the end of the month, but will struggle mightily in the meantime. Month Three post patch: The top level players have it figured out pretty well and the information slowly filters down to the lower levels (lower level pros and semi-pros). Month Four post patch: Everything has normalized and we can really tell balance by looking at stats for the 4th month.
The queen buff happened on May 10th. Imbalance crying really started to hit its peak a little after June 10th (this blog was started on June 18th by a semi-pro who was probably starting to play against the newly filtered down meta-game). It is currently July 16th. Based on the theory, the top level terrans should be figuring out TvZ again (note the TSL results above or Byun vs Nestea in the GSL). It won't be until early August when the lower level pros and semi-pro players have seen enough successful TvZ at the top levels to copy and then practice. If the theory holds, the data from early August until early September should show the true balance stats.
So what I'm saying is that it'd be really nice for Blizzard and the community to slow down and see what happens with balance. If you're looking at ladder data or a broad swathe of tournament data that includes semi-pros, then you'll need to be patient (wait till you have data for the 4th month) before you start analyzing data about balance.
Of course, the larger the change, the longer it will take for the meta-game to fully shift for the buffed race and also the longer it will take for the reactionary meta-game shift for the other races. The queen buff + overlord buff seems to be about one-month per shift and is the impetus for this theory. Honestly, I voiced my concern over the queen buff (while cheering the overlord buff) before it was made. As a random race player, I didn't see it as being necessary. I would have much rather seen how much the overlord buff would have changed the game on its own (a smaller buff that would require less time to accurately determine its effects). And if they were going to change something as dramatic as a unit's range (a hugely important stat), I'd prefer to see them try out 4 range first (and buff it up to 5 after four more months if the stats were still showing Z undepowered), rather than jump from 3 to 5.
However, I think there's reason to believe that the end result of a queen with range 5 will be a more balanced and more enjoyable game. The highest level Terrans are starting to explore and understand their late-game options better rather than relying purely on having an advantage going into the lategame. This new understanding is creating better late-game battles where Terran isn't just auto-losing in 200 vs 200 battles anymore. Early-mid game pressures and all-ins are still viable and being used, but now it's a variety of them rather than reactor-hellion all the time every time which is giving the early game more variety. And as for balance, we're starting to see Terrans make a comeback at the highest levels. I have a feeling that pretty soon those results will filter down to all levels.
I have to agree - tvz right now is just beyond slightly imbalanced..at every stage of the game I feel like I am behind, at the moment I think proxy 2 rax is probably the best win % build, which is pretty sad, but its understandable why players like Select do it basically every game. Macro games are not actually a good idea even if you have far better mechanics than the zerg.
Ghan those results are absolutely stupid to try and justify. You are going by regional WCS which isn't something I would go basing all my stats on.
Look at GSL recently, terrans are starting to win vs zerg again a lot more then they were a week or 2 ago (in both GSTL and GSL). Homestory cup had no top tier terrans in them, the only one was MVP who played awful that weekend which everyone agrees with. Happy is supposed to be good but don't believe he's ever had any good big tournament results. When the terrans for HSCV were only mid tier foreigners and MVP hard to try to use that to "justify Terran UP".
Also just a fun fact, even when terran was considered OP/OP foreign terrans were still on the low end. but at the top end (which is koreans) terrans were dominating everything. Just thought I would throw that out there.
In short think terrans are fine especially with terrans starting to win again (at top level obviously).
I'm not good enough to see real imbalance, im hovering somewhere between diamond and masters. Zergs where I am are still going ling bling muta so tanks work just fine.
The problem I have with the patch is that terran is the worst lategame because we can't remax instantly on any combination of units we want to unless we spend money on 20 factories and 20 starports, which we cannot do, and because terran has gotten nerfed every patch since release. By making the games go later, as blizzard did with the queen buff, they are hurting terran. They have said that terran has to do damage to stay even lategame. Now that that is impossible, we are forced into the lategame. Terran can manage lategame because we can theoretically have the largest army with lots of macro OCs, but getting to that stage is risky. Also, the builds I have been using over the past year all became obsolete after the patch, which sucks.
Terrans have started to use ravens, but ravens are terrible units. Seeker missiles are essentially banelings, and if zerg splits their army, it takes 2 seeker missiles to kill 1 broodlord, or at least 1 seeker missile to kill one unit. All the amazing raven hits we have seen so far are when the zerg a moves a 200 army of broodlord corruptor all in the same square inch of space against a bunch of ravens, and as cool as that is, its not good play, its akin to moving a marine medivac ball into a ling bling army with no micro.
TvZ is such a joke right now. I find myself losing to zergs I KNOW I would've destroyed pre-patch. They play insanely greedy and can get away with it because of how well early queens and creep spread cost-efficiently deny any harass and early timing attack. Then they're absolutely terrible at defending my multi-drop harass, but it only works a few times before they just mass spore everywhere, which they can cuz they have a 85+ drones. And then broodlord infestor gg.
Oh, and if I actually manage to crush them with a 10min timing attack? I get called an all-inning noob.
On July 17 2012 14:19 blade55555 wrote: Ghan those results are absolutely stupid to try and justify. You are going by regional WCS which isn't something I would go basing all my stats on.
Look at GSL recently, terrans are starting to win vs zerg again a lot more then they were a week or 2 ago (in both GSTL and GSL). Homestory cup had no top tier terrans in them, the only one was MVP who played awful that weekend which everyone agrees with. Happy is supposed to be good but don't believe he's ever had any good big tournament results. When the terrans for HSCV were only mid tier foreigners and MVP hard to try to use that to "justify Terran UP".
Also just a fun fact, even when terran was considered OP/OP foreign terrans were still on the low end. but at the top end (which is koreans) terrans were dominating everything. Just thought I would throw that out there.
In short think terrans are fine especially with terrans starting to win again (at top level obviously).
This. Basing your data on regional WCS is like basing your data on Iccup A- level. Regional WCG doesn't have the best players, unfortunately. You have to balance at the very top, because then, skill level dictates the balance. As long as you improve your skill, the more balanced the game becomes. This means we need to look at Korean GSL level play.
On July 17 2012 14:19 blade55555 wrote: Ghan those results are absolutely stupid to try and justify. You are going by regional WCS which isn't something I would go basing all my stats on.
Look at GSL recently, terrans are starting to win vs zerg again a lot more then they were a week or 2 ago (in both GSTL and GSL). Homestory cup had no top tier terrans in them, the only one was MVP who played awful that weekend which everyone agrees with. Happy is supposed to be good but don't believe he's ever had any good big tournament results. When the terrans for HSCV were only mid tier foreigners and MVP hard to try to use that to "justify Terran UP".
Also just a fun fact, even when terran was considered OP/OP foreign terrans were still on the low end. but at the top end (which is koreans) terrans were dominating everything. Just thought I would throw that out there.
In short think terrans are fine especially with terrans starting to win again (at top level obviously).
This. Basing your data on regional WCS is like basing your data on Iccup A- level. Regional WCG doesn't have the best players, unfortunately. You have to balance at the very top, because then, skill level dictates the balance. As long as you improve your skill, the more balanced the game becomes. This means we need to look at Korean GSL level play.
GSL is actually not that great of a representative of balance because it is so reliant on mindgames and build-order picking, so it doesn't really give us an objective view. The GSTL in that respect would be a better indicator of balance, and terrans if I remember correctly (I don't watch it) aren't doing well at all.
As an aside, it's been known for a while that Terran is the hardest race mechanically and that's why there are so few "up and coming" terran players in the foreign scene relative to zerg and protoss players (Cytoplasm, Harstem, Ziktomini, Jonnyrecco, roof, etc...). The results in foreign tournaments also reflect this fact (1 terran in European WCS, 0 terrans in top8 of several tournaments).
On July 17 2012 14:19 blade55555 wrote: Ghan those results are absolutely stupid to try and justify. You are going by regional WCS which isn't something I would go basing all my stats on.
Look at GSL recently, terrans are starting to win vs zerg again a lot more then they were a week or 2 ago (in both GSTL and GSL). Homestory cup had no top tier terrans in them, the only one was MVP who played awful that weekend which everyone agrees with. Happy is supposed to be good but don't believe he's ever had any good big tournament results. When the terrans for HSCV were only mid tier foreigners and MVP hard to try to use that to "justify Terran UP".
Also just a fun fact, even when terran was considered OP/OP foreign terrans were still on the low end. but at the top end (which is koreans) terrans were dominating everything. Just thought I would throw that out there.
In short think terrans are fine especially with terrans starting to win again (at top level obviously).
This. Basing your data on regional WCS is like basing your data on Iccup A- level. Regional WCG doesn't have the best players, unfortunately. You have to balance at the very top, because then, skill level dictates the balance. As long as you improve your skill, the more balanced the game becomes. This means we need to look at Korean GSL level play.
GSL is actually not that great of a representative of balance because it is so reliant on mindgames and build-order picking, so it doesn't really give us an objective view. The GSTL in that respect would be a better indicator of balance, and terrans if I remember correctly (I don't watch it) aren't doing well at all.
As an aside, it's been known for a while that Terran is the hardest race mechanically and that's why there are so few "up and coming" terran players in the foreign scene relative to zerg and protoss players (Cytoplasm, Harstem, Ziktomini, Jonnyrecco, roof, etc...). The results in foreign tournaments also reflect this fact (1 terran in European WCS, 0 terrans in top8 of several tournaments).
This. Terran can still win with good preparation (you know what your opponent's style is, what strategies he picks for maps, etc), but in tournament formats like MLG, IEM, or IPL, its much harder to predict what your opponent will do, even if you have a rapport with them.
The only real problem I have with the current state of TvZ is the effort that I have to put in to secure a victory and that I CAN'T play to get an advantage and ride it out for a win.
If I multitask like a boss and wear my opponent down while macroing well, I win. If I do a strong timing that my opponent doesn't scout (or react properly to) I win. If I don't do one of these two things, I lose. There are no comebacks, the moment that Zergs start making army and I do not have one of at least equal size on hand, I lose.
I played some Zerg on the ladder last night against some of the same opponent's I've been facing (this is high diamond/low masters level) and with next to zero mental focus and minimal effort I DESTROYED them all by playing Zerg. I've been maining Terran since February, doing very little offracing...
I just wish effort was rewarded equally, but I know that I CAN win with Terran if I outplay my opponent, which gives me a strong incentive to be a much better player.
On July 18 2012 02:33 CapnAmerica wrote: The only real problem I have with the current state of TvZ is the effort that I have to put in to secure a victory and that I CAN'T play to get an advantage and ride it out for a win.
If I multitask like a boss and wear my opponent down while macroing well, I win. If I do a strong timing that my opponent doesn't scout (or react properly to) I win. If I don't do one of these two things, I lose. There are no comebacks, the moment that Zergs start making army and I do not have one of at least equal size on hand, I lose.
I played some Zerg on the ladder last night against some of the same opponent's I've been facing (this is high diamond/low masters level) and with next to zero mental focus and minimal effort I DESTROYED them all by playing Zerg. I've been maining Terran since February, doing very little offracing...
I just wish effort was rewarded equally, but I know that I CAN win with Terran if I outplay my opponent, which gives me a strong incentive to be a much better player.
oh please, even pro gamers have lost to easy to execute builds. why should you be rewarded because you think you're a better player yet you still can't beat them.. sounds like you're a worse player than they are to me.
On July 18 2012 02:33 CapnAmerica wrote: The only real problem I have with the current state of TvZ is the effort that I have to put in to secure a victory and that I CAN'T play to get an advantage and ride it out for a win.
If I multitask like a boss and wear my opponent down while macroing well, I win. If I do a strong timing that my opponent doesn't scout (or react properly to) I win. If I don't do one of these two things, I lose. There are no comebacks, the moment that Zergs start making army and I do not have one of at least equal size on hand, I lose.
I played some Zerg on the ladder last night against some of the same opponent's I've been facing (this is high diamond/low masters level) and with next to zero mental focus and minimal effort I DESTROYED them all by playing Zerg. I've been maining Terran since February, doing very little offracing...
I just wish effort was rewarded equally, but I know that I CAN win with Terran if I outplay my opponent, which gives me a strong incentive to be a much better player.
oh please, even pro gamers have lost to easy to execute builds. why should you be rewarded because you think you're a better player yet you still can't beat them.. sounds like you're a worse player than they are to me.
I'm well aware that not all builds require an equal amount of work to be successful, my issue is only that Zerg is way, way easier to play regardless of the strategy that I choose (unless I do something silly, like 6 pool). The micro and macro requirements for Zerg are much lower at my level of play. And, by the way, I don't want to be rewarded... I want to get better. I can feel the difference between the races, though.
I don't think that it's fair, per se, that Terran lacks an easy to execute, comparable strategy in the early game compared to Zerg. 1 Barracks FE doesn't hold up unless you're doing a timed out bunker rush on a potential third, macroing perfectly, and scouting for all baneling builds at a time when all scouting can be denied by queens. That's way harder than making 4 queens, getting ling speed and a 3rd, and then going whatever tech route you like while droning hard.
And all the aggression that I can perform outside of a single timing push which is scoutable and counterable with ease thanks to faster overlords and the building-restricted nature of Terran, can be nullified by a second of inattention, as opposed to Zerg harassment, which involves move clicking and a-moving. I love playing both races, but Zerg just FEELS way stronger for the required amount of effort. That's all. If you think I'm worse than the players that I'm beating with both races, then that's your right, but I honestly feel this difference. Back to getting easy wins as Z on ladder.
My own experience is that right now any average zerg who was low GM or master league can be as good as a progamer. Because it doesn't take really any skill to build up drones and spread creep on all the map in 12 game minutes with mass queens. I really feel I have to be insanely better than my opponents to win and all this leaves is just a huge amount of frustration. Also I can't help but feel it's sad that horrible players like Jonnyrecco who were shit before patch suddenly became good and when I play any zerg on the ladder I know it's going to be super hard no matter who it is, be it Dimaga or any 50% win ratio zerg in master league. Things are REALLY fucked up at the moment.
On August 08 2012 17:53 aTnClouD wrote: My own experience is that right now any average zerg who was low GM or master league can be as good as a progamer. Because it doesn't take really any skill to build up drones and spread creep on all the map in 12 game minutes with mass queens. I really feel I have to be insanely better than my opponents to win and all this leaves is just a huge amount of frustration. Also I can't help but feel it's sad that horrible players like Jonnyrecco who were shit before patch suddenly became good and when I play any zerg on the ladder I know it's going to be super hard no matter who it is, be it Dimaga or any 50% win ratio zerg in master league. Things are REALLY fucked up at the moment.
At least you're getting good TvZ practice if any average zerg is as good as a progamer.
I haven't been playing lately, but just by watching tournaments it feels like SC2 is becoming like BW but worse -- there are a few godly korean terrans who are doing really well, but if you're not one of them then it's insanely hard to win anything.
On August 08 2012 17:53 aTnClouD wrote: My own experience is that right now any average zerg who was low GM or master league can be as good as a progamer. Because it doesn't take really any skill to build up drones and spread creep on all the map in 12 game minutes with mass queens. I really feel I have to be insanely better than my opponents to win and all this leaves is just a huge amount of frustration. Also I can't help but feel it's sad that horrible players like Jonnyrecco who were shit before patch suddenly became good and when I play any zerg on the ladder I know it's going to be super hard no matter who it is, be it Dimaga or any 50% win ratio zerg in master league. Things are REALLY fucked up at the moment.
yea since the new patch there is a huge amount of zerg players rising to the top.. 1 good example is Ourk who played Protoss at a high masters level, switched to Zerg and was top 5 GM literally 2 weeks later :D players like SortOf and partly also Jrecco are a different story bc imo they were pretty good even before the buff, just unknown.
On August 08 2012 17:53 aTnClouD wrote: My own experience is that right now any average zerg who was low GM or master league can be as good as a progamer. Because it doesn't take really any skill to build up drones and spread creep on all the map in 12 game minutes with mass queens. I really feel I have to be insanely better than my opponents to win and all this leaves is just a huge amount of frustration. Also I can't help but feel it's sad that horrible players like Jonnyrecco who were shit before patch suddenly became good and when I play any zerg on the ladder I know it's going to be super hard no matter who it is, be it Dimaga or any 50% win ratio zerg in master league. Things are REALLY fucked up at the moment.
yea since the new patch there is a huge amount of zerg players rising to the top.. 1 good example is Ourk who played Protoss at a high masters level, switched to Zerg and was top 5 GM literally 2 weeks later :D players like SortOf and partly also Jrecco are a different story bc imo they were pretty good even before the buff, just unknown.
Sortof was pretty good indeed and Jonnyrecco really wasn't, thing is they jumped instantly from that point to very top foreign level once the patch came out.
poor Cloud, didnt win when Terran was op, now Terran is balanced and he dropps totally off the screen
btw: why does Taeja have this insane winrate in TvZ? is he a god amongst men or how is it possible? If ZvT is really imbalanced, his TvZ winrate should be his worst, not his best?
On August 11 2012 02:06 Zeon0 wrote: poor Cloud, didnt win when Terran was op, now Terran is balanced and he dropps totally off the screen
btw: why does Taeja have this insane winrate in TvZ? is he a god amongst men or how is it possible? If ZvT is really imbalanced, his TvZ winrate should be his worst, not his best?
Starpower, my friend. Starpower.
Ever hear of the time when teamliquid only had 1 player left in IPL TAC and slayers had their strongest players left?
when i see Taeja play vs zerg i get the feeling i have no right to complain because he proves that is possible to win against zerg
the problem is not their late game
(i dont like this chain fungual )
the problem is that terran cant apply any pressure >early game not really with marines or hellion or banshees you can still be agressive but its harder then before