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Wall of life text inc
I played it a bit when I was really young, standard mass cannon/carrier stuff, but I never did play it much past that. SC2 changed my life, it restructured the way I think and gave me the mental fortitude to overcome real life challenges I never would have imagined, at this point in my life almost every scenario I relate to SC2 before solving it(literally). Broke up with my girlfriend? Looks like I shouldnt have expanded so fast, I didnt have the emotional resources to support it. Anyways enough with the tomfoolery, though I can never replace the role SC2 has played, it seems I can replace the game.
Starting out in beta I was constantly fed up with how people compared it to SC1 and saw that it was a different game, drawing a line between a dragoon and a stalker didn't make sense, but now a few months later I find I've hit a... soft skill cap if you will. I'm not stupid enough to actually imply I'm that good, but micro is my strong point and is hard to improve on past just doing it, though I am rarely outmicrod. Macro, my weak point, was easily fixed, I've basically learned every strategy and build for all 3 races and can pull off the ones that are needed on my main race, and quiet a few on offraces, and I have no problem adapting to changing game situations.
mini tldr - So at this point, where I have little to learn regarding existing strategys until a new one appears or a patch hits, I don't feel I can improve on anything significant, disregarding natural experience eg. apm, etc.
What I really want to know by playing SC1 is why, after 10 years, is the game still entertaining while I am bored after a few months? It looks like every unit can be microd, not just specific ones that are almost purely designed to do so, it seems like offense is a more viable strategy than in SC2 where macro will make or break a game. The mentality I went into SC2 with was "there's always something to click and if your not clicking your missing opportunities" but at this point I literally lean back in my chair at the start of the game and take sips of pop during the meat of the matches. SC1 seems like I can never click to much, something always needs doing. Is SC1 just that much better of a game, or does the same thing happen there?
predicted reply responses - yes i play high diamond - no i dont need a break, ive already tried that - doing the same build 300 times to perfection isnt fun when you can pull it off with 90% perfection
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Funnily enough, I feel like I'm a better bw player now that I've played some SC2 ladder games It's still the most crisp and clear game out there. And although SC2 is fun at times bw is always fun for me. So good choice trying that out!! I predict you're going to fall in love
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So how many tournaments did you win already?
Anyways, what about... you know... inventing new builds?
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Well, you're probably be in for a bit of disappointment then. BW is even more mechanics based than SC2. In fact, when a lot of pros give advice on how to improve BW play, they'll say play one build over and over again until you can 100% perfect it.
The way the top pros (e.g. Flash) approach their game is very timings based. i.e. They will find loopholes in their opponents build in certain timings and try and exploit it. If you can get to that level, then I imagine BW will be very very fun. But it'll take a long uphill climb before you get there.
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Playing brood war will not harm your sc2 ability but playing sc2 harms your bw ability. My opinion at least ^^
go bw gogogo!
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On October 26 2010 20:01 Morfildur wrote: Anyways, what about... you know... inventing new builds?
Already done a bunch of that, but for the most part I'm running out of material to work with. In beta it was easy before the pros refined everything
Thor rushed back when they were weak, opened stargate pvz even when roaches were 1 supply using void rays with my army instead of to cheese, massed queens before speed nerf, post nerf ling/infestor are some of the things I fooled around with. Nowadays if theres a build a pro hasnt found, I think its unlikely I'll find it. Even TLO hasn't been left anything recently but his mad crazy hellion micro openings and nukes.
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SC1 requires much more mechanics, even BoxeR says so. The restriction of your control groups, as to prioritizing which group to hotkey, which buildings to hotkey, are all essential. Money is also faster in SC1, 4 workers at the start = 32 minerals because each one brings in 8, SC2 is 6 workers = 30 minerals, so if you're not careful, your money WILL pile up faster than you anticipated. To behonest I play SC1 still to improve my multitasking mechanics.
I will however not take away anything from SC2. There was someone who commented here on TL not too long ago that, in SC1 your APM is leaning more towards the production cycle because you can't group all your buildings with ctrl + left click, in SC2 since they made grouping things easier, APM is now more directed towards ACTUAL UNIT CONTROL. I'm not trying to discredit you, but EVERY unit indeed in sc2 can be microed. Let me ask you: Do you have a good feel of all the units' attack animations and cooldowns? Can you perfectly attack, move, attack by utilizing this knowledge? Can you do drop micro (because drop micro is alot harder in sc2 than it was in sc1), and by drop micro i mean dropping your tank and picking it up before it gets attacked, etc etc.
I'm not going to say that i'm perfect at this myself, because I'm not, but by the sound of your thread, it looks like you're ready to start diving into these mechanics that so many people call "korean skill" or whathaveyou. It's good that you want to go back to SC1, in fact I personally encourage it, I didn't play beta SC2, and I didn't play SC1 for over 5-7 years after SC2 release came out, but when I did play SC2 my average APM was around 80~100, and now after playing SC1 to smoothen out my mechanics, I can average 130~150, and I'm not spamming at all.
It literally does sound though, that to alleviate your "soft skill cap", you need to start thinking outside the box. Pros don't make up crazy builds by doing the same thing over and over again, they go out and do silly things, have silly losses, but in by doing so, they learn those unit attack animation speeds/cooldowns, they learn those timing attacks, the create those "wtf" builds that seem to work. Heck, do you think Bisu made his build the first time and it worked perfectly? I remember Day9 saying Bisu failed time and time again, until finally you saw what he did vs. sAviOr, making sAviOr look like a B-list zerg. If I sound negative, I appologize, I'm really trying not to be, but I hope you can see my point through all this :S
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Am I the only one who has to puke from the arrogant tone in the posts?
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Good post ghost.
At the end of the day, if you like sc2 better then sc2, by all means, play sc1 But i don't really see the point of such a thread, make a blog.
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You have plenty to learn once you get past your ego
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If you think SC1 is a better or more interesting game, you should play it. Maybe it suits you more and you won't get so bored easily, maybe you will find out that it's the same for you like SC2 now and after a few month you'll become bored of it. I still think there's a lot of things to do and improve in SC2. If you really are as good as you think, try playing some tournaments. It should make a whole different experience than just laddering. But to be honest, for me it sounds like a disguised "Why SC1 is better than SC2"-thread, this sentence:
(mini tldr - So at this point, where I have nothing to learn until a new strategy appears or a patch hits, I don't feel I can improve on anything significant, disregarding natural experience eg. apm, etc.)
alone sounds like you still got the wrong mind set in playing the game, since otherwise you would just try finding a new strategy that works well. If you can't, it's probably not because there's nothing viable, but you just can't 'see' it.
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On October 26 2010 20:21 Scarecrow wrote:You have plenty to learn once you get past your ego
"I'm not stupid enough to actually imply I'm that good"
Maybe you should get past your fetish for condescending.
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Cant really commentate on your position since I'm nowhere near it but I took one thing away from this: you seem to think that clicks = skill. Although I dont think you actually do because it seems outright silly to have such an opinion.
Overall though this is just mindless banter and Ghost summed it up nicely about where you seem to be in sc2 skill wise.
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You seem very arrogant sir. If you find Starcraft boring then, you do.. go ride a bike or something.
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Sorry if I sounded arrogant, it wasn't meant to be implied. I'm very aware that I'm nowhere close to the better players.
Thanks for the helpful posts, especially ghost. I feel I have the attack timings down, and can do the drop micro fairly well, but by the sound of it the macro will own me for awhile, I'm pretty sure I only get away with macro because of MBS and automine.
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Macro, my weak point, was easily fixed, I've basically learned every strategy and build for all 3 races and can ah okay. This part was the part that show it most clearly just saying bro
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On October 26 2010 20:36 Gono wrote: Sorry if I sounded arrogant, it wasn't meant to be implied. I'm very aware that I'm nowhere close to the better players.
Thanks for the helpful posts, especially ghost. I feel I have the attack timings down, and can do the drop micro fairly well, but by the sound of it the macro will own me for awhile, I'm pretty sure I only get away with macro because of MBS and automine.
SC1 will be your savior, because you need to be able to attack and switch back to your production cycle, then being able to switch back to your main force to micro it, then switch back to your production cycle, wash, rinse, repeat. SC1 taught me this valuable lesson, because in SC2, as i stated, more attention is now towards the units. I'm sure you can kill dts with a PT without using scan as well right? Or doing ring-around-the-rosie with 4 banshees, without losing step with any of their attack timings (in reference to the 4 marines vs. 1 lurker stim micro back in sc1 lol). I'm sure you'll pull yourself out of this slump and I'll see you in the GSL in a few years. But really don't be afraid to get silly, trap your opponent's probes with pylons and then 2gating him in his own base (refrence to Bisu's pylon 2 gateway cheese a couple years back)
But really if you want to work on your macro-multitasking ability you don't need SC1, this is what I do: Go to the build order test zone by LEmental, open with 1 gate 1 core, get your warp gate, make a zealot. Hotkey your nexus, a probe, your zealot, the warpgate. Move your zealot out, but don't shift-move que him. BEFORE HE STOPS MOVING, make another zealot rally him to the FUTURE POINT OF THE FIRST ZEALOT, probe, pylon if you need to, go back to your first zealot and move him again, if the two zealots meet group them and move them, wash rinse repeat. Start with 1 gate way, and your goal is to never miss the cooldown, heck it's better if you switch back and there's still cooldown, but eventually your timing should be so perfect you switch to your warpgate(s) EXACTLY when they're done with cooldown. eventually add more buildings when you're better with this, make your micro more complicated before switch back to your production cycle. I promise you you'll be averaging 300 APM, and there's no spam involved...well maybe to check cooldowns lol.
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On October 26 2010 20:18 Stuv wrote: Am I the only one who has to puke from the arrogant tone in the posts?
Not at all.
Seriously, you all may aswell say "well I play brood war, so therefore im above everyone else, I dont wish to play SC2 because it is too easy for me since my mechanics and stratergy is better than eveeryone elses". And to the person who says BW is "clearer"... WHAT, ill admit that its more refined and is in a more balanced state at the minute, but one thing it isnt is clearer, im sure that everyone will admit that the BW graphics are hard to make out at times. Heres my advice, BW is a 10 year old game, its a great game, but its 10 years old. The only people left playing it are the hardcore players who will genuinley beat you in under 7-8 minutes every game, there is no automatch system and ICCUP is impossibly difficult for the first 6 mounths of play and you will not find anyone who is of similar skill level straight away, you will most lightly go 0-100 before you even get a close game. SC2 is a new game and the future of e-sports, everyone has a fresh start and you have a better chance of getting to the top. There is automatch system and you will find someone of similar skill everytime no matter how bad or good you are. My advice is to stick to SC2 however I know that SC1 is a great game, I know that some people still play it and that is great and I know that brood war players are most lightly more skilled than SC2 players because they have 10 years experience.
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What's the point of this thread ?
Another "Ima thinks SC1 is bettah than SC2".
And congratz on editing main post 50 minutes after posting it where people answered. This is such a troll feast.
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On October 26 2010 21:14 Cain0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2010 20:18 Stuv wrote: Am I the only one who has to puke from the arrogant tone in the posts? Not at all. Seriously, you all may aswell say "well I play brood war, so therefore im above everyone else, I dont wish to play SC2 because it is too easy for me since my mechanics and stratergy is better than eveeryone elses". And to the person who says BW is "clearer"... WHAT, ill admit that its more refined and is in a more balanced state at the minute, but one thing it isnt is clearer, im sure that everyone will admit that the BW graphics are hard to make out at times. Heres my advice, BW is a 10 year old game, its a great game, but its 10 years old. The only people left playing it are the hardcore players who will genuinley beat you in under 7-8 minutes every game, there is no automatch system and ICCUP is impossibly difficult for the first 6 mounths of play and you will not find anyone who is of similar skill level straight away, you will most lightly go 0-100 before you even get a close game. SC2 is a new game and the future of e-sports, everyone has a fresh start and you have a better chance of getting to the top. There is automatch system and you will find someone of similar skill everytime no matter how bad or good you are. My advice is to stick to SC2 however I know that SC1 is a great game, I know that some people still play it and that is great and I know that brood war players are most lightly more skilled than SC2 players because they have 10 years experience.
Uh, you DO realise there's almost a general consensus that BW graphics are clearer than SC2's "SHINYEXPLOSIONS" graphics?
@OP, play BW, it's a far better game. Don't listen to the people that say "IT'S 10 YEARS OLD THEREFORE SC2 MUST BE BETTER"; almost every unit in BW has infinite skill capability for strategic or tactical placement of units, alongside more macro-based styles of play (ie, less 1 base play).
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