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51140 Posts
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top 2 are toss, and 3 toss in the top 10!!!
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only one zerg in top 6, is zerg imbalanced?
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and only two zergs in top 9!
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Ha... Kal made it on the rankings. I bet FakeSteve is slightly tweaked. :D
Also: what the hell did Bitfrost do to get back on?
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once again shit load of terrans
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and only 7 in the top 30!
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United States10774 Posts
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is awesome32247 Posts
How the fuck did GGPlay go up lol
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Melbourne5338 Posts
He won some proleague games and isn't falling like NaDa and NaDa is probably losing more points from more than 3 months ago.
Justin has been winning at proleague 2v2s, maybe that helped him rise.
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51140 Posts
I'm pretty surprised Stork is 2nd now... doesn't WCG mean anything anymore? :D
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Compared to the MSL? Plus Bisu's been raping faces in 2v2s, or at least so I've heard.
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There are only 30 players in the top 30! A full third of them are in the top 10! This is madness!
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
On November 01 2007 15:09 GTR-2-Go wrote: I'm pretty surprised Stork is 2nd now... doesn't WCG mean anything anymore? :D actually I heard WCG gives no points
T_T
in which case my entire argument last month for defending storks #1 title just got a gaping hole in it.
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Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
You know, I remember when there were like 3~5 protosses in the top 30. Now there are 10 tosses, exactly 1/3, and meanwhile zergs are now taking a hit.
Meanwhile terrans still take up the majority, though not a single terran is in the top 3.
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On November 01 2007 15:26 Live2Win wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2007 15:09 GTR-2-Go wrote: I'm pretty surprised Stork is 2nd now... doesn't WCG mean anything anymore? :D actually I heard WCG gives no points T_T in which case my entire argument last month for defending storks #1 title just got a gaping hole in it.
Haha, that is so funny. I remember in the old days (with the old system), Xellos rode on his WCG win for years after years.
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lol at Kal moving up 10 spots. What a monster!
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everyone watch out... anytime is moving up. 5 places and its still fall...... GOGO
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United States20661 Posts
Top 3, no surprises
Iris? I guess he's not out of OSL yet, and it is for 3 months. still. I'd expect HwasIn > him.
Sea and Anytime sportin' them ProLeague points.
GGPlay: "3 month point totals! gogo Daum!"
Poor NaDa D: poor iloveoov D:
Jaedong needs to be highhher, considering his last KeSPA-considered ZvZ loss was in January and last ZvT loss in July. rA is ranked too low, as is PuSan.
Yarnc's drop makes sense. FBH drop more plz. Darkelf get out. Oh wtf CROCUS is in there?
Light can stay where he is, I suppose. Same with upmagic and Flash.
MANTOSS is the fifth-best Protoss in the world? yeaHH. Actually, it's kind of sad that I consider that to be a great honor nowadays. How the mighty have fallen..
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On November 01 2007 16:03 Last Romantic wrote: Top 3, no surprises
Iris? I guess he's not out of OSL yet, and it is for 3 months. still. I'd expect HwasIn > him.
Sea and Anytime sportin' them ProLeague points.
GGPlay: "3 month point totals! gogo Daum!"
Poor NaDa D: poor iloveoov D:
Jaedong needs to be highhher, considering his last KeSPA-considered ZvZ loss was in January and last ZvT loss in July. rA is ranked too low, as is PuSan.
Yarnc's drop makes sense. FBH drop more plz. Darkelf get out. Oh wtf CROCUS is in there?
Light can stay where he is, I suppose. Same with upmagic and Flash.
MANTOSS is the fifth-best Protoss in the world? yeaHH. Actually, it's kind of sad that I consider that to be a great honor nowadays. How the mighty have fallen..
there's no such thing as 'ranked too low' on Kespa rankings
they're based strictly on performance
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eSTRO has..... 1 player in the top 30 (UpMagic). Maybe they can double that with their anticipated North American recruit.
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wow JulyZerg #28 , too bad this guy is playing like crap now ;\
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On November 01 2007 15:22 SonuvBob wrote: This is madness!
Madness?
THIS. IS. KeSPA!!!
+ Show Spoiler +Yes. I went there. Just be glad I didn't shop a pic.
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United States20661 Posts
On November 01 2007 16:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2007 16:03 Last Romantic wrote: Top 3, no surprises
Iris? I guess he's not out of OSL yet, and it is for 3 months. still. I'd expect HwasIn > him.
Sea and Anytime sportin' them ProLeague points.
GGPlay: "3 month point totals! gogo Daum!"
Poor NaDa D: poor iloveoov D:
Jaedong needs to be highhher, considering his last KeSPA-considered ZvZ loss was in January and last ZvT loss in July. rA is ranked too low, as is PuSan.
Yarnc's drop makes sense. FBH drop more plz. Darkelf get out. Oh wtf CROCUS is in there?
Light can stay where he is, I suppose. Same with upmagic and Flash.
MANTOSS is the fifth-best Protoss in the world? yeaHH. Actually, it's kind of sad that I consider that to be a great honor nowadays. How the mighty have fallen.. there's no such thing as 'ranked too low' on Kespa rankings they're based strictly on performance
Yeah, I realize they're a completely systematic ranking form. I just don't like how they determine points
I still don't understand their formulae. People will have two losses and somehow have more points at the end..? maybe losses grant points -_-
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savior has been quite strong lately so im still hoping he will get back where he belongs.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Bit surprising how Reach and Anytime are ahead of Ra.. Is PL just worth a shit load now or what? The whole bottom 20 is kind of madness all over imo
oh and someone remind me what the fuck Calm has done?? BEcause im looking at his games(He is 14-21 btw) and its like uhhhhhh, wow 40% win rate in proleague makes you a top 20 player in the world?
If im just missing something, aight. But if not, kespa is just full of shit ranking
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Reach is claiming the ladder! Hopefully he'll be top 10 soon.
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reach can only base his winning percentages on 2v2s now, his 1v1 is nowhere close to what it was.
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On November 01 2007 16:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: there's no such thing as 'ranked too low' on Kespa rankings
they're based strictly on performance
Lies, damned lies, statistics. There are many ways to take a window on the performance of players. Just look at the ELO ratings on the site here, and observe the disparity. It's easy enough to argue that the KeSPA system for measuring the players (whatever it is) doesn't provide good or sufficiently responsive rankings. If you wanted to.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On November 01 2007 18:48 Waves wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2007 16:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: there's no such thing as 'ranked too low' on Kespa rankings
they're based strictly on performance Lies, damned lies, statistics. There are many ways to take a window on the performance of players. Just look at the ELO ratings on the site here, and observe the disparity. It's easy enough to argue that the KeSPA system for measuring the players (whatever it is) doesn't provide good or sufficiently responsive rankings. If you wanted to.
No, there isn't, because the KeSPA ranking does exactly what it is intended to do
There is a fair and accurate points system that is unrelated to current form or whatever you want to argue about. KeSPA ranking is just a ranking according to the results players put out, so Pusan's ranking is exactly in line with his wins and losses over the last three months.
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On November 01 2007 18:56 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: No, there isn't, because the KeSPA ranking does exactly what it is intended to do
What, precisely, is it intended to do? Suggest who the best players have been over the last three months?
On November 01 2007 18:56 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:There is a fair and accurate points system
What makes it fair and accurate? As I tried to imply in my post, the way you decide to calculate the points can change the rankings dramatically.
The one thing you can say for KeSPA ratings are that they're a consistent measure. Good for comparing against previous KeSPA ratings. For as long as they've kept exactly the same system, anyway.
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Bisu hell yeah! Nice month for protoss.. only two tosses who has fallen and one of them are stork who lost his first place to bisu.. No shame in that!
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On November 01 2007 19:04 Waves wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2007 18:56 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: No, there isn't, because the KeSPA ranking does exactly what it is intended to do What, precisely, is it intended to do? Suggest who the best players have been over the last three months?
No, its not to show who's the best. It's to show who's won the most in important games.
Lucky wins, shitty wins, easy opponents, it doesn't matter. Nobody views KeSPA ranking as an accurate depiction of the top 30 players in order of skill. It's just a compilation of wins and losses, no room for opinion.
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On November 01 2007 19:07 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: No, its not to show who's the best. It's to show who's won the most in important games.
Who says they made good decisions about which games count as "important"? Do you see what I'm getting at here?
On November 01 2007 19:07 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote:Lucky wins, shitty wins, easy opponents, it doesn't matter. Nobody views KeSPA ranking as an accurate depiction of the top 30 players in order of skill. It's just a compilation of wins and losses, no room for opinion.
Note that ELO puts no criteria on lucky wins or shitty wins. 'Easy' opponents do matter for that system, though.
What we can legitimately have an opinion about is whether KeSPA measures anything worth measuring. Whether the point system they use actually tells us something useful about the players and their relation to one another, or whether it's just meaningless data.
I could create a ranking system based on who is the best at winning games vs Terrans that last longer than 30 minutes. But who would care about who #1 was on that list? Similarly, I could create a ranking based only on games played on a day that starts with "T".
I'm not arguing that it's good or bad. I'd have to at the very least know the system they're actually using before I'd pass judgement on it. I'm just saying, there are perfectly legitimate reasons people could have for declaring these ratings to be worthless.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
I just said that KeSPA isn't an accurate measure of who is the best
I said that its an accurate measure of who has the most points by their rating system, and because of that its futile to say things like "so and so should be higher". No, so and so shouldn't, because so and so is subject to the same rules as everyone else.
I didn't say KeSPA was a great indicator of who is strong, look how different the Power Rank is. I said there's no room for argument about who should be higher or lower.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
Seriously buddy, read my posts, don't skim over them and post once you think you've got the general idea
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On November 01 2007 19:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: I didn't say KeSPA was a great indicator of who is strong, look how different the Power Rank is. I said there's no room for argument about who should be higher or lower.
Well, you could assume that the people saying "so and so should be higher" are suggesting that KeSPA use a different system of measurement. Which would be just as legitimate in the sense you've been arguing, and could potentially be more legitimate in other senses (such as what useful conclusions you could draw from it about the players).
On November 01 2007 19:24 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Seriously buddy, read my posts, don't skim over them and post once you think you've got the general idea
I understood them. I'm suggesting you're misinterpreting the spirit of the people who are complaining about these rankings.
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The protoss era is here!!! yo!!! this is better than the terran dominated rankings.. boxer,, nada,, oov,, its about time protoss done something.. and maybe random race player will dominate soon.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
On November 01 2007 19:26 Waves wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2007 19:21 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: I didn't say KeSPA was a great indicator of who is strong, look how different the Power Rank is. I said there's no room for argument about who should be higher or lower. Well, you could assume that the people saying "so and so should be higher" are suggesting that KeSPA use a different system of measurement. Which would be just as legitimate in the sense you've been arguing, and could potentially be more legitimate in other senses (such as what useful conclusions you could draw from it about the players). Show nested quote +On November 01 2007 19:24 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Seriously buddy, read my posts, don't skim over them and post once you think you've got the general idea I understood them. I'm suggesting you're misinterpreting the spirit of the people who are complaining about these rankings.
Yes, but saying "Pusan should be higher on KeSPA ranking" is not the same as "Pusan would be higher if the points were weighted differently and I think they should be"
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On November 01 2007 19:28 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Yes, but saying "Pusan should be higher on KeSPA ranking" is not the same as "Pusan would be higher if the points were weighted differently and I think they should be"
Well, most people don't word their responses in those sorts of terms.
Personally I would have taken that second statement as implied from the first. When people say rankings are wrong, can't we assume that they think the method used to produce those rankings is no good? It seems less likely that people are claiming KeSPA got their maths wrong.
For instance, if I said the November Power Rank is full of shit, wouldn't you take it as implied that I think your judgment on the topic isn't any good, and that I think whatever method you used to obtain those rankings wasn't suitable for the task?
(I actually liked this month's Power Rank.)
Edit: If you want to argue that people suck at making a case for change, I'm right there with you.
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Looks like Jaedong will be a big mover between now and the New Year if he keeps going like he is.
Otherwise a fairly accurate reflection of the pro scene atm.
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I agree with this Power Rank 100%
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On November 01 2007 19:35 Waves wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2007 19:28 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Yes, but saying "Pusan should be higher on KeSPA ranking" is not the same as "Pusan would be higher if the points were weighted differently and I think they should be" Well, most people don't word their responses in those sorts of terms. Personally I would have taken that second statement as implied from the first. When people say rankings are wrong, can't we assume that they think the method used to produce those rankings is no good? It seems less likely that people are claiming KeSPA got their maths wrong. For instance, if I said the November Power Rank is full of shit, wouldn't you take it as implied that I think your judgment on the topic isn't any good, and that I think whatever method you used to obtain those rankings wasn't suitable for the task? (I actually liked this month's Power Rank.) Edit: If you want to argue that people suck at making a case for change, I'm right there with you.
Er, Power Rank is a totally subjective decision made every month. KeSPA is an objective formula-based unchangeable automated ranking of players. Bitching about KeSPA rankings is therefore inherently stupid unless you are suggesting a different objective method for measuring things other than performance in the last X months, which seems to me to be a perfectly fair and logical system. Anything else would lead to even more inexplicable bitterness and fighting over something as trivially objective as this.
One can bitch about Power Rank because it's Steve's opinion, and we can discuss what about it we think is justified and what we think isn't. Bitching about KeSPA is like bitching that it's "ridiculous" how Tom Brady leads Peyton Manning in QB rating this season. I mean, he just does.
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Jaedong deserves a better spot, Nada a worse one, and Stork should switch with Savior... but other than that, no surprises.
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WHOA ROCK IS IN THE KESPA RANKINGS!
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On November 01 2007 22:44 Equinox_kr wrote: WHOA ROCK IS IN THE KESPA RANKINGS!
That suprised me too ;P
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United Arab Emirates5090 Posts
it is the era of the protoss i tell you
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Alot of new school players up there, eh?
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Calgary25939 Posts
On November 01 2007 22:19 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2007 19:35 Waves wrote:On November 01 2007 19:28 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: Yes, but saying "Pusan should be higher on KeSPA ranking" is not the same as "Pusan would be higher if the points were weighted differently and I think they should be" Well, most people don't word their responses in those sorts of terms. Personally I would have taken that second statement as implied from the first. When people say rankings are wrong, can't we assume that they think the method used to produce those rankings is no good? It seems less likely that people are claiming KeSPA got their maths wrong. For instance, if I said the November Power Rank is full of shit, wouldn't you take it as implied that I think your judgment on the topic isn't any good, and that I think whatever method you used to obtain those rankings wasn't suitable for the task? (I actually liked this month's Power Rank.) Edit: If you want to argue that people suck at making a case for change, I'm right there with you. Er, Power Rank is a totally subjective decision made every month. KeSPA is an objective formula-based unchangeable automated ranking of players. Bitching about KeSPA rankings is therefore inherently stupid unless you are suggesting a different objective method for measuring things other than performance in the last X months, which seems to me to be a perfectly fair and logical system. Anything else would lead to even more inexplicable bitterness and fighting over something as trivially objective as this. One can bitch about Power Rank because it's Steve's opinion, and we can discuss what about it we think is justified and what we think isn't. Bitching about KeSPA is like bitching that it's "ridiculous" how Tom Brady leads Peyton Manning in QB rating this season. I mean, he just does.
Dude, he's saying that there are obviously points assigned to each league, in that certain things are worth more than others. That's not objective, now is it? I'm not sure what about this list triggered him to say that, but I don't think you need to suggest an alternative to criticize something...
I think kespa is fine and the lists lately generally follow common sense.
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On November 01 2007 15:22 SonuvBob wrote: There are only 30 players in the top 30! A full third of them are in the top 10! This is madness!
Well, you had to go and say it, didn't you...
*ahem*
MADNESS? THIS. IS. SPARTA!!!
Edit: Ah crap, someone beat me to the dead horse on page 2.
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Stork will switch with Savior next month.
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How come UpMagiC dropped two rankings? Was it cause of Anytime? By beating Bisu and Shudder to get into the OSL I thought he at least would hold his rank Oo.
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serious. NaDa #9
can't fucking believe that Jaedong didn't even move up. what utter bs -_-
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Anytime up 5 places! wootz !
And Free up 3. Next, top 3 and a Starleague.
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On November 01 2007 23:43 MYM.Testie wrote: Stork will switch with Savior next month. QFT. And month after that Savior and Bisu will switch ;e
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I feel like in this ranking somehow the new players with a couple of wins gain a lot of points n push the 'has been' ones down too fast. I mean past achievements don't do much for the favorite players it seems..
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On November 02 2007 00:40 DrainX wrote:Show nested quote +On November 01 2007 23:43 MYM.Testie wrote: Stork will switch with Savior next month. QFT. And month after that Savior and Bisu will switch ;e
lol Probably not. But as long as those 2 stay in the top 2, things are fine.
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Bisu > ALL, so NO, he won't switch places with anyone anymore.
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On November 01 2007 14:50 OneOther wrote: Bisu #1 seems right
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qft is the most retarded saying that has popped up in the last 6 months
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On November 02 2007 03:15 Xeris wrote: qft is the most retarded saying that has popped up in the last 6 months
qft + Show Spoiler +You had to know it was coming
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United States7488 Posts
On November 01 2007 17:16 Last Romantic wrote:Yeah, I realize they're a completely systematic ranking form. I just don't like how they determine points I still don't understand their formulae. People will have two losses and somehow have more points at the end..? maybe losses grant points -_-
I think that he would gain points because he has more losses rotating out of the system than he has coming in. So it's not so much that points are gained, but less points are lost (which just looks like a gain).
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
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I'm kind of surprised anyone from ACE made it on the top 30... :S
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Is Justin (27 +5) the oldschool Themarine from back in the boxer days?
NEVERMIND TLPD solves all.
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United States7488 Posts
On November 02 2007 05:42 jimminy_kriket wrote: Is Justin (27 +5) the oldschool Themarine from back in the boxer days?
No, It's Justin/Bifrost/Whatever the fuck his name is now. Everyone in the [name] clan takes the alias of other people, such as Yellow[name] aka Yarnc
Speaking of Justin, how the hell did he go up 5 positions?! He has a thirteen game losing streak! edit: Oh ya, 2v2
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51140 Posts
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United States7488 Posts
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51140 Posts
I have to go to school so I can't fix it right now, sorry.
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Nice to see Bisu the #1 toss againe ^^
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United States5262 Posts
Don't mess with XellOs's WCG 2004 victory. As far as I care he can ride that til he retires.
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For GTR's list, number 10 in starleagues is Flash number 27 in starleagues and number 10 in proleague is Much
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I'm suprised Jaedong didn't advance any higher.
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On November 02 2007 06:44 jkillashark wrote: Don't mess with XellOs's WCG 2004 victory. As far as I care he can ride that til he retires.
With his Olympus OSL win and 2004 WCG domination, I think it's safe to say that Xellos is the current Bonjwa.
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On November 02 2007 09:02 Jyvblamo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2007 06:44 jkillashark wrote: Don't mess with XellOs's WCG 2004 victory. As far as I care he can ride that til he retires. With his Olympus OSL win and 2004 WCG domination, I think it's safe to say that Xellos is the current Bonjwa.
haha... oh man.
KaL @ #5 for proleague...... wow
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the nickname justin.. it disturbes me..
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I can't believe zergs suck so much these days. And wtf happened to JulyZerg?
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On November 02 2007 09:21 SixSongs wrote:I can't believe zergs suck so much these days. And wtf happened to JulyZerg?
Watch his games. He's just not playing as well as the terrans he's losing to.
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On November 02 2007 09:33 Jyvblamo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 02 2007 09:21 SixSongs wrote:I can't believe zergs suck so much these days. And wtf happened to JulyZerg? Watch his games. He's just not playing as well as the terrans he's losing to.
i dont know if its a matter of skill, but mainly a matter of adaptation: they know how to counter July.
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rA 26...
Well its nice to know that BISU and Stork is there to cover his back while he recovers!
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On November 03 2007 07:40 JoxxOr wrote:Well its nice to know that BISU and Stork is there to cover his back while he recovers!
It's also comforting to know that Bisu is there to kick rA out of the MSL, should rA be able to beat Almighty WCG 2004 Champion Pride of Korea & Olympus OSL winner Xellos.
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rA shall kick Xellos's butt.
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sorry to bump this but MIND wasn't even in the top30 .... O_O
hes gonna definitely advance in the top15 now lol
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On November 17 2007 20:34 trollbone wrote: sorry to bump this but MIND wasn't even in the top30 .... O_O
hes gonna definitely advance in the top15 now lol uh yea he was? he was number 30
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lol Someone who isnt even in the top30 took the MSL Thats why I love SC
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I cant stand having so many so many T's in top 20. I hate them! And only 4 Z's, and damn 6 tosses, these are dark ages for Zerg .
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On November 17 2007 22:51 MadNeSs wrote:I cant stand having so many so many T's in top 20. I hate them! And only 4 Z's, and damn 6 tosses, these are dark ages for Zerg .
bah overall it's 3 more terrans than protoss. And in the top20 we have some interesting characters. I coulda been unhappier to be honest.
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poor july and poor nal_ra
also GGPlay went up WTF?
all the good players from 2004-2006 are in big shit, they are in the lowest ranking of their lives
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My 3 favorite tosses, free, much and anytime all top 20 yay =) I dont think there is any imbalance between the races. It all depends on how you count. In the top 10 there are 3,3,4 of all of the races. Thats as balanced as it can get. Sure there are many terrans and a few more tosses than usual but nothing special. Savior being the only zerg in the very top has been a fact for a year now so thats nothing new.
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inter.mind just won MSL, I can't find his name on the top-30 though?
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On November 18 2007 00:22 LibertyTerran wrote: inter.mind just won MSL, I can't find his name on the top-30 though? This ranking only counts games played before november. Before november Mind had an all time record of 9-11 45%. You will see him in the december rankings :p
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