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How does TvP work
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Leon1das1
United States71 Posts
Replay: http://repdepot.net/download.php?type=rep&id=55748&name=Effortless_win vs Leon1.rep | ||
tmdtmdtmd
9 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
Also if you want to learn the fundamentals start off with openings like seige expand or fd. | ||
Leon1das1
United States71 Posts
On July 29 2014 08:39 tmdtmdtmd wrote: Just switch to protoss, in bw protoss is the easiest and strongest race, a zealot has more hp than a tank and cost much less, just make 3 control group and make them auto attack terran main it's easy win. T is hard because you need to micro everything. You would only lose to a Terran player if that guy plays 24/7 and is 10 times better than you, but even then just make sure you recall on factories, win 100% of the time. But if you wanna be cool and not play the cheap race protoss, then keep practicing, you may win 1 out of 10 games, but when you do, it's sweet. Where is the fun in an easy win? | ||
evilfatsh1t
Australia8521 Posts
On July 29 2014 08:39 tmdtmdtmd wrote: Just switch to protoss, in bw protoss is the easiest and strongest race, a zealot has more hp than a tank and cost much less, just make 3 control group and make them auto attack terran main it's easy win. T is hard because you need to micro everything. You would only lose to a Terran player if that guy plays 24/7 and is 10 times better than you, but even then just make sure you recall on factories, win 100% of the time. But if you wanna be cool and not play the cheap race protoss, then keep practicing, you may win 1 out of 10 games, but when you do, it's sweet. this post just made me dumber tvp is all about timings. its something a new player will have difficulty understanding, however if you play enough games you will start to notice specific points in the game when your army will look stronger than his. it all depends on the starting builds as well obviously, but there are timings in every opening for terran. for now just focus on making sure you never stop production. if you can constantly produce units and manage your upgrades together no other strategy or special build order is required. you will overwhelm your opponents through sheer macro all the way until C-/C | ||
puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
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ijustlost
United States45 Posts
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Chameleon
United States604 Posts
My real answer is watch the BratOK and Idra tvp games from the TSLs. That's what it's supposed to look like. | ||
Probemicro
3708 Posts
On July 29 2014 14:17 Chameleon wrote: Just sit behind your free invisible mini nukes (mines) and turrets and tanks and invincible buildings while you take a few bases (or not, up to you). Vultures are basically free so harass with those if you want. Max out while getting 3-3 and just turtle until protoss suicides his army into you (aka takes one hit from your tanks) and/or recalls on a bunch of mines and then 1a2a3a your army to his base for the win. Also, scan once every 5 minutes to see if that big scary carrier finished building. lol toss will just 1base proxy robo and kill u with shuttle/reaver. i've seen korean terrans like ssak straight out die to that more than once. or DTs. | ||
Chameleon
United States604 Posts
On July 29 2014 14:19 Probemicro wrote: lol toss will just 1base proxy robo and kill u with shuttle/reaver. i've seen korean terrans like ssak straight out die to that more than once. or DTs. Well yeah, but the reaver will only kill you the 5% of times the scarab actually stops and asks for directions before it runs out of gas and derps out on a mineral or something. and your scvs don't even die in one hit to dts : *****( so unfair | ||
Probemicro
3708 Posts
On July 29 2014 14:22 Chameleon wrote: Well yeah, but the reaver will only kill you the 5% of times the scarab actually stops and asks for directions before it runs out of gas and derps out on a mineral or something. and your scvs don't even die in one hit to dts : *****( so unfair well u dont aim at the scvs at first...u aim at the tanks. ifs its the typical siege expand terrans dont have much units out so reducing tank count really hurts him. dont forget u still have your gateway units, u can elevator them into the base. | ||
[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On July 29 2014 14:22 Chameleon wrote: Well yeah, but the reaver will only kill you the 5% of times the scarab actually stops and asks for directions before it runs out of gas and derps out on a mineral or something. LOLZ. Great quote. | ||
puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
This is a link to my youtube channel that contains some tournies that I casted in the last few months. You might be able to scrounge up some useful information in the commentaries since I mostly talk strategy and don't really shout cast. Hope it helps. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9TUFmP30G7ZBaTWlTiSr6A/videos | ||
skzlime
Hungary462 Posts
okay, so... DON'T GET DISCOURAGED, THAT IS NOT THE INTENT. there are countless things you could have done better, you couldn't have made that rush work against my grandma, and there was also no way for you to ever take a 3rd in that game. side note: python is VERY protoss favored in tvp, but that wasn't the problem here at all. terrible mistakes: you don't even know the build order!!! learn it first!! i get my gas faster in a rax expand, man!!!!!! anyway, you want to 2fact, so you make a wall, okay, but it doesn't even work + Show Spoiler + i mean (DRAGOONS can walk in) 1. learn a build order (play LAN vs 1 AI, close slot during countdown, press "continue"). i would recommend standard FD for TvP (use liquipedia). after 10-20 tries you should get it right most of the time without thinking about it. (TvZ: rax expand -> 2rax academy -> 3 rax and tech, TvT: 1fact 1port (this one seems very technical at first but gives you the best knowledge imo)) 2. don't ladder. you won't improve well under that pressure. seek friends of similar skill level to play many games with, preferably people who also want to get better. you can also try out more things if you know your opponent will give re and help you with preset build orders etc. 3. establish a feel for things. when do i have to start building this if i want it to finish at the same time as that (eg. have ~100 gas when rax finishes, finish sci fac when +1 upgrade finishes)? how long is the build time for certain units? how many shots does it take for unit A to kill unit B? etc. 4. i don't think you should watch too many replays of good players yet. watch a few to get an idea of how the matchup should go, but you won't be able to do what they do so no point copying. just try to imitate in general. 5. understand causes. why do matchups play out the way they do? on a beginner level, things are set in stone a lot less. you can get away with doing a lot of bullshit, but you should still strive for optimal play. that way you will be much better off later. it's like learning to play the piano with that seemingly retarded hand position that's super uncomfortable for noobs, but one that is essential for higher level play. 6. come back in 3 months. then you can learn about positioning, micro, focus firing and the little tricks. until then just avoid those lurkers with your marines and let the tanks handle it. | ||
WGT-Baal
France3155 Posts
It was so frustrating that I used to race pick Z to play ZvT even in LANs...it's a matter of style. I ve also played some TvP and it is hard as hell too, but I m bad with T anyways... on topic: TvP is a position battle. Don't move all your tanks at once, slowly push towards the P while building turrets and planting mines everywhere. You do not need Gundam too early (before arbiters or carriers). | ||
L1ghtning
Sweden353 Posts
There are a few variants of Siege Expand, but the safest would probably be: Make sure to never be supply blocked Get barracks/gas at 11/12. Send scouting SCV at 13. When you pass your natural mineral line, center your screen around the mineral line, and push SHIFT+F3. Now when you push F3 your screen moves to that position. Build 1 marine immediately, but delay the 2nd one. Put the marines at the ramp, and put them on hold. (Just push H). Always make it a habit to put marines on hold position when they're standing still. Pull 2 scvs off gas (1 remaining) once you have 100 for your first Factory. After starting the factory start building more marines, up to 4, but make sure you're also making SCVs and supply. Once you have 4 marines, float the barracks to the ramp, so it floats over your marines. This makes your marines harder to target. Once you hit 300~ minerals, make sure you move back scv's to the gas, so you have 3. Then you build a CC up your ramp at the closest floating distance to the 2nd mineral lines. You can build a 2nd factory a bit before the CC is finished building. After building the 2nd factory get a engineering bay. If you are unable to scout and prove that he's going for either 12 nexus, 1 gate nexus or some 2 gate variant, then get the engineering bay directly after your 1st tank, this will delay your siege mode a bit, and will also delay your 2nd factory. When the CC is done. Do this in order: Order the CC to float, then you push F3, so you get centered on the destination mineral line, and then land on the new mineral line. Float your Barracks and land it a bit front of the CC, preferably next to the cliff. The purpose is to block the ground slightly in case that he gets aggressive. Then you go back to your main mineral line and select as many SCV's as you can, then deselect (shift+left click) until you get 7 SCV's, then push F3 and send them to the new mineral line. Next you siege down your 2 tanks. Sometimes if the protoss is being aggressive you need to move one of them down the ramp, but not necessarily. Then you move your marines down the ramp and position them between the destinations of the barracks and the CC. Put them on hold. Also around that time, you will need to queue up your 3rd tank. When, depends on how fast you are, and also on whether you made some early variations. Once the engineering bay is finished, put up 1 turret to cover each mineral line, and 1 turret inbetween, ideally it should prevent them from scouting your factory tech with his observers. Once you have 2 factories and 1 engineering bay, the next priority is 2 more factories, then an academy as soon as possibly, for scan. From the first 2 factories make only tanks, and delay the vulture upgrades until you have started your 3-4th factories. Make vultures from those factories. Once you get your first 2-4 vultures, move out. Put the vultures on 1. The 4 marines and 4~ scv's from your mineral line on 2. All tanks on 3. Put all reinforcements on 4, and send them into the battlefield continiously. You can rally them to his natural base too. This is especially recommended if your first attack is successful. And just before moving out float your barracks towards his base, to provide with range once you reach your destination, and eventually make it easier to shoot up his ramp. Try not to waste your vultures, by sending them in first, instead use them to flank and put up mines. If you have hit at a good timing (depends on his build), you should have enough units to push him back into his own base, but don't count on it, and be prepared to siege down before the first engagement. After you win the engagement you should be able to push through. Once you reach just outside his natural base, siege down and put up turrets and take down his natural. Use additional scv's to mass repair tanks (shift+R+left click) and to build supplies and potentially a bunker, to obstruct his units if he tries to stream them down. He should have a 3rd base, so send off a few units, reinforcements maybe to take that base down, but make sure you can hold your position. Get up to 6 factories once you get the money, and if it drags on longer, get your 3rd base, an armory and a starport and try to catch up on tech. It is not necessary to break up his main, because as long as he only have that base, and you have 2, he's screwed and you just need to wait him out. You can use the floating barracks to take potshots at him though. But be careful. This is not a perfect build. Depending on his timings, (mainly his 3rd base timings) you might want to push out on 2 or 6 factories, or anything inbetween, but if you can scout his timings you can adjust. 4 factory works decently most of the time though, so it's a good place to start. And although 3 base timing builds might be more solid, they are harder to pull off as a beginner and 2 base timings are less macro-intensive, which will make it easier for you to focus on and improve your unit control, which is crucial in this matchup. Once you get the macro and micro down, it becomes easier to transition to proper 3 base timing play. | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/FD_(vs._Protoss) though sometimes depending on spawn positions, some Ts like to go rax FE too. | ||
Leon1das1
United States71 Posts
On July 29 2014 20:29 L1ghtning wrote: For TvP I recommend starting out with Siege Expand into 4 factory push. There are a few variants of Siege Expand, but the safest would probably be: Make sure to never be supply blocked Get barracks/gas at 11/12. Send scouting SCV at 13. When you pass your natural mineral line, center your screen around the mineral line, and push SHIFT+F3. Now when you push F3 your screen moves to that position. Build 1 marine immediately, but delay the 2nd one. Put the marines at the ramp, and put them on hold. (Just push H). Always make it a habit to put marines on hold position when they're standing still. Pull 2 scvs off gas (1 remaining) once you have 100 for your first Factory. After starting the factory start building more marines, up to 4, but make sure you're also making SCVs and supply. Once you have 4 marines, float the barracks to the ramp, so it floats over your marines. This makes your marines harder to target. Once you hit 300~ minerals, make sure you move back scv's to the gas, so you have 3. Then you build a CC up your ramp at the closest floating distance to the 2nd mineral lines. You can build a 2nd factory a bit before the CC is finished building. After building the 2nd factory get a engineering bay. If you are unable to scout and prove that he's going for either 12 nexus, 1 gate nexus or some 2 gate variant, then get the engineering bay directly after your 1st tank, this will delay your siege mode a bit, and will also delay your 2nd factory. When the CC is done. Do this in order: Order the CC to float, then you push F3, so you get centered on the destination mineral line, and then land on the new mineral line. Float your Barracks and land it a bit front of the CC, preferably next to the cliff. The purpose is to block the ground slightly in case that he gets aggressive. Then you go back to your main mineral line and select as many SCV's as you can, then deselect (shift+left click) until you get 7 SCV's, then push F3 and send them to the new mineral line. Next you siege down your 2 tanks. Sometimes if the protoss is being aggressive you need to move one of them down the ramp, but not necessarily. Then you move your marines down the ramp and position them between the destinations of the barracks and the CC. Put them on hold. Also around that time, you will need to queue up your 3rd tank. When, depends on how fast you are, and also on whether you made some early variations. Once the engineering bay is finished, put up 1 turret to cover each mineral line, and 1 turret inbetween, ideally it should prevent them from scouting your factory tech with his observers. Once you have 2 factories and 1 engineering bay, the next priority is 2 more factories, then an academy as soon as possibly, for scan. From the first 2 factories make only tanks, and delay the vulture upgrades until you have started your 3-4th factories. Make vultures from those factories. Once you get your first 2-4 vultures, move out. Put the vultures on 1. The 4 marines and 4~ scv's from your mineral line on 2. All tanks on 3. Put all reinforcements on 4, and send them into the battlefield continiously. You can rally them to his natural base too. This is especially recommended if your first attack is successful. And just before moving out float your barracks towards his base, to provide with range once you reach your destination, and eventually make it easier to shoot up his ramp. Try not to waste your vultures, by sending them in first, instead use them to flank and put up mines. If you have hit at a good timing (depends on his build), you should have enough units to push him back into his own base, but don't count on it, and be prepared to siege down before the first engagement. After you win the engagement you should be able to push through. Once you reach just outside his natural base, siege down and put up turrets and take down his natural. Use additional scv's to mass repair tanks (shift+R+left click) and to build supplies and potentially a bunker, to obstruct his units if he tries to stream them down. He should have a 3rd base, so send off a few units, reinforcements maybe to take that base down, but make sure you can hold your position. Get up to 6 factories once you get the money, and if it drags on longer, get your 3rd base, an armory and a starport and try to catch up on tech. It is not necessary to break up his main, because as long as he only have that base, and you have 2, he's screwed and you just need to wait him out. You can use the floating barracks to take potshots at him though. But be careful. This is not a perfect build. Depending on his timings, (mainly his 3rd base timings) you might want to push out on 2 or 6 factories, or anything inbetween, but if you can scout his timings you can adjust. 4 factory works decently most of the time though, so it's a good place to start. And although 3 base timing builds might be more solid, they are harder to pull off as a beginner and 2 base timings are less macro-intensive, which will make it easier for you to focus on and improve your unit control, which is crucial in this matchup. Once you get the macro and micro down, it becomes easier to transition to proper 3 base timing play. So first off thank you. A couple questions though. In terms of the timings, how do I know which one works where and when I do, what do I base it off of; supply or game time.Also is there a way to more accurately place Vulture mines, they seem to go where ever vulture gets clustered to when you tell them to place mines. | ||
amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
So, what you need to do is do a bunch of magic boxing and grab 2-4 vultures at a time from that group and mine a spot, then follow suit with the rest. It's micro intensive, but terran is quite apm heavy to play right to begin with... as for general timings and strats, that only comes with practice, replay analysis, and watching the pros play. | ||
pebble444
Italy2477 Posts
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L1ghtning
Sweden353 Posts
On July 29 2014 22:55 Leon1das1 wrote: So first off thank you. A couple questions though. In terms of the timings, how do I know which one works where and when I do, what do I base it off of; supply or game time.Also is there a way to more accurately place Vulture mines, they seem to go where ever vulture gets clustered to when you tell them to place mines. Usually when I scout his base, I just look for either a 2nd gateway, a nexus or tech, whatever comes first. That's enough to tell me roughly what he's doing, and then I focus on scouting his 3rd base timing. Just make sure your scv gets out alive and park it at his probable 3rd base destination. To some extent, atleast in certain scenarios you have to play a bit blind when it comes to 2 base timing attacks, but ideally you would want to arrive at his base roughly when his 3rd nexus just finishes. A 3rd base is always followed by a fair number of gateways, and you need to hit before the first production cycle of those gateways. So if you examine a replay it's easy to figure out how good your timing was. If you can get in a position where you can siege at his natural nexus, even if he's got a bigger production, he will struggle to break through. Think of it like defending your own base. It's easy, because terran is favored in crowded spaces, especially when sieged down. Once you siege down just outside his base, your main goal is to take down the nexus and defend your position. Once you're confident that his nexus will fall, send away a few units to take down his 3rd (as few as possible). A lot of the time, 1 vulture is enough, because you mainly need to kill the probes. So keep making factories, and when you scout him making his 3rd, that's roughly at latest when you need to be getting vulture upgrades. You get speed first because it's faster, and sometimes you won't have both machine shops ready by that time. 4 Factory should work decently against semi-standard timings, so I would recommend always aiming for that, and having that as your default option if you're unsure. Look at progamer FPV vods to get the basics on how to lay mines. You need to kind of split them up. | ||
puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
Eventually terrans graduate from blind timing pushes and start going for aggressive but non-allin pushes like 3 fact on 2 base, fact cc fact and strong fd. If they aren't doing this they are going fast port or 3rd cc off of 1 fact. While strategically these strategies aren't as vulnerable as blind 4 facts, they still can be pretty easily defeated by a protoss who anticipates this style of play. I think going for the 4 fact followup is fine for now just so you can get an understanding how to conduct a timing push (a crucial skill in the matchup). This strategy will also help you ensure that you are doing your build efficiently from the second you split your scv's. However the skill many low and mid level terrans neglect the most which is so vital to being scary in terran versus protoss is how to win in the late game with a maxed 200/200 2-1 army versus 4-5 base toss with arbiters. The build that taught me how to get to late game safely was simply to follow up my fd/seige expand/ vult fe by adding 1 factory and 1 academy (I would skip an ebay if I saw both a nexus and ranged goons with my scout). Once you scan the protoss gate counts you can decide from there if you want to expand to a third or if you want to go for a timing push. If you go for a third you will of course get an ebay and an armory after making the command center. From here you focus on maxing quickly and harassing the protoss as much as you can as he tries to get a 4th. If you have good skill in the late game versus protoss you will be a much harder opponent to play against as it will prevent them from playing styles that blind counter timing pushes. You will also be significantly more frustrating to fight on ladder as terrans who have confidence going into the late game evenly versus protoss are rare. | ||
Probemicro
3708 Posts
On July 30 2014 06:38 puppykiller wrote: I think one of the reasons terrans struggle so hard in tvp is they never learn how to play solid. If you look at what sorts of terran versus zerg builds are recommended, they include a midgame plan. For terran usually people don't recommend a build but instead just an opening. From there new terrans tend to go for blind timing pushes hoping that they will work (my whole first year of starcraft). While these pushes definitely exist within any progamer's repertoire, they aren't really indicative of how to play the match up and are easy to beat if the protoss doesn't play risky. Eventually terrans graduate from blind timing pushes and start going for aggressive but non-allin pushes like 3 fact on 2 base, fact cc fact and strong fd. If they aren't doing this they are going fast port or 3rd cc off of 1 fact. While strategically these strategies aren't as vulnerable as blind 4 facts, they still can be pretty easily defeated by a protoss who anticipates this style of play. I think going for the 4 fact followup is fine for now just so you can get an understanding how to conduct a timing push (a crucial skill in the matchup). This strategy will also help you ensure that you are doing your build efficiently from the second you split your scv's. However the skill many low and mid level terrans neglect the most which is so vital to being scary in terran versus protoss is how to win in the late game with a maxed 200/200 2-1 army versus 4-5 base toss with arbiters. The build that taught me how to get to late game safely was simply to follow up my fd/seige expand/ vult fe by adding 1 factory and 1 academy (I would skip an ebay if I saw both a nexus and ranged goons with my scout). Once you scan the protoss gate counts you can decide from there if you want to expand to a third or if you want to go for a timing push. If you go for a third you will of course get an ebay and an armory after making the command center. From here you focus on maxing quickly and harassing the protoss as much as you can as he tries to get a 4th. If you have good skill in the late game versus protoss you will be a much harder opponent to play against as it will prevent them from playing styles that blind counter timing pushes. You will also be significantly more frustrating to fight on ladder as terrans who have confidence going into the late game evenly versus protoss are rare. its more of a foreigner mindset to be rather aggressive in the early/mid game. I can't recall the last time i seen a foreigner consistently able to play and maintain a pure solid macro style since the days of Idra/maybe Ret. in contrast korean terrans always do safe standard openings, only pulling out some pressure/allin variant once in a while. Playing less risky means while they may have to work harder to get their wins and even lose more matches than they should, they will always be constantly practicing their general macro/mechanics which as a whole is more beneficial as improvement. rather than just doing allins everyday and getting cheap wins which give u a nice win ratio but doesn't improve your skills whatsoever. | ||
Leon1das1
United States71 Posts
On July 30 2014 06:38 puppykiller wrote: I think one of the reasons terrans struggle so hard in tvp is they never learn how to play solid. If you look at what sorts of terran versus zerg builds are recommended, they include a midgame plan. For terran usually people don't recommend a build but instead just an opening. From there new terrans tend to go for blind timing pushes hoping that they will work (my whole first year of starcraft). While these pushes definitely exist within any progamer's repertoire, they aren't really indicative of how to play the match up and are easy to beat if the protoss doesn't play risky. Eventually terrans graduate from blind timing pushes and start going for aggressive but non-allin pushes like 3 fact on 2 base, fact cc fact and strong fd. If they aren't doing this they are going fast port or 3rd cc off of 1 fact. While strategically these strategies aren't as vulnerable as blind 4 facts, they still can be pretty easily defeated by a protoss who anticipates this style of play. I think going for the 4 fact followup is fine for now just so you can get an understanding how to conduct a timing push (a crucial skill in the matchup). This strategy will also help you ensure that you are doing your build efficiently from the second you split your scv's. However the skill many low and mid level terrans neglect the most which is so vital to being scary in terran versus protoss is how to win in the late game with a maxed 200/200 2-1 army versus 4-5 base toss with arbiters. The build that taught me how to get to late game safely was simply to follow up my fd/seige expand/ vult fe by adding 1 factory and 1 academy (I would skip an ebay if I saw both a nexus and ranged goons with my scout). Once you scan the protoss gate counts you can decide from there if you want to expand to a third or if you want to go for a timing push. If you go for a third you will of course get an ebay and an armory after making the command center. From here you focus on maxing quickly and harassing the protoss as much as you can as he tries to get a 4th. If you have good skill in the late game versus protoss you will be a much harder opponent to play against as it will prevent them from playing styles that blind counter timing pushes. You will also be significantly more frustrating to fight on ladder as terrans who have confidence going into the late game evenly versus protoss are rare. Once I can get through the midgame ill be sure to try this. | ||
LuMiX
China5757 Posts
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mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
Most of the great players started off playing cheesy, in order to learn the game. Do you think this is a good way to learn, and if so, what TvX cheeses would be good to start with? Thanks. | ||
puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
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Leon1das1
United States71 Posts
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ninazerg
United States7290 Posts
On July 30 2014 02:48 pebble444 wrote: TvP is like sex. start off slow and then build up the momentum to when both players are maxed out TvP is like sex; play often but only try when it matters. I don't know what this means. | ||
Probemicro
3708 Posts
However the transition is hard and tend to be less rewarding (fuk arbiters etc.) at the start. Hence most amateur players have little incentive to improve their macro further. | ||
TelecoM
United States10583 Posts
On August 01 2014 06:37 puppykiller wrote: I don't know if most of the good players started off cheesy. This is according to who? Have you ever heard of SlayerS_`BoxeR` ? | ||
Leon1das1
United States71 Posts
On July 30 2014 02:48 pebble444 wrote: TvP is like sex. start off slow and then build up the momentum to when both players are maxed out Idk if I'm ready for that. | ||
puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10583 Posts
On August 01 2014 15:08 puppykiller wrote: Yo don't start out cheesy. Most cheesy players I know stay cheesy and never evolve from it. There is no " You don't start out Cheesy" or "Don't start out as a macro player" That is a ridiculous statement that obviously a newschool player would make.....Playing "Cheesy" forces you to adapt and understand all elements of the game, if your cheese fails, you are forced to make this up with speed / better decision making than the opponent....Also how are you going to talk about how levels above C+ / B- are when you have never even hit B- before..... | ||
puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8521 Posts
On August 01 2014 11:27 Probemicro wrote: Flash is a notable example for someone who started off cheesy before turning into a macro beast. However the transition is hard and tend to be less rewarding (fuk arbiters etc.) at the start. Hence most amateur players have little incentive to improve their macro further. flash didnt "start cheesy" and then turn into a macro beast. he started as a winner and he stayed a winner. his mechanics have always been good, he just cheesed a lot early because ot won him games. when opponents started to play safe against him he started to 14cc everything and win games. | ||
tmdtmdtmd
9 Posts
On July 30 2014 06:38 puppykiller wrote: I think one of the reasons terrans struggle so hard in tvp is they never learn how to play solid. And you know why? because it takes 10 times more practices to play solid T than to play solid P, ain't nobody got time for that. | ||
Probemicro
3708 Posts
On August 01 2014 16:34 evilfatsh1t wrote: flash didnt "start cheesy" and then turn into a macro beast. he started as a winner and he stayed a winner. his mechanics have always been good, he just cheesed a lot early because ot won him games. when opponents started to play safe against him he started to 14cc everything and win games. early on he was strong but his macro was anything but extraordinary, in fact he was dying from predictable 14ccs with his only competent results against top players are from pulling off timings/allins. so my statement is still correct. after that he got much better and started playing his style of macro that plowed through everyone, so much so he hardly need to use cheese anymore to win. he stopped cheesing because he knows his macro is now strong enough to take on literally anybody in lategame. | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
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puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
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Heartland
Sweden24562 Posts
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EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10583 Posts
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puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
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Ty2
United States1431 Posts
Hi, I think this video would be helpful. Give it a watch sometime. | ||
TelecoM
United States10583 Posts
On August 02 2014 13:15 puppykiller wrote: I was trying to ignore you so that u wouldn't get attention cuz there is nothing more to discuss about you. lol oh ok kiddo , what else is there to discuss? Except your terrible advice and viewpoints on how this game works when you are dead wrong about everything? User was warned for this post | ||
puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
Also you and I both know I 3-0'd you in pvp. This is a matchup you play and I don't. After this you refused to play my Terran with your Toss when I asked you. Did you want me to bring this up because it seems like you did... I derive no joy from having beef with you because it is not important to my life. I don't wanna derail the thread anymore if you wanna message me call me out in the official grudge match thread where I will promptly go back to ignoring you because I prefer chatting with my practice partners and clanmates then having beef with someone who can't make peace. User was warned for this post | ||
evilfatsh1t
Australia8521 Posts
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mau5mat
Northern Ireland461 Posts
On August 02 2014 14:01 Ty2 wrote: You can (not) watch this Words can't really describe how amazingly helpful this video is. All of the educational sessions that the korean pros do are helpful but this is the only one that's been given english subtitles. The video was taken down but I guess it was reuploaded which I'm very happy to see. It's a true gem. The major thing I recognize is how they stay calm no matter what even when it looks super bad. Sea does a great job of this and is probably the most vocal of the Korean amateurs when he does his educational session and he speaks like he's speaking to complete beginners which is good. His mouse clicks are always very composed, organized, and efficient. I'd suggest giving it a thorough watch if you're committed enough. As for the Gundam Rush you use its power is well expressed in the words of former/old school progamer Garimto-"Even though you know it’s coming, you can’t stop it." Those types of plays are very demanding of your micro and can make for very entertaining games but something like a DT or Reaver rush can really foil risky 1 base plays. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Double_Armory_(vs._Protoss) Here's a link to the infamous Flash build that talks in depth about mid game tvp and goes very far into the mid game. Just following a build order is good enough. Watching FPVOD's of professional players can also help a lot and is probably what I recommend the most. General hotkey setup goes 1, 2 for tanks 3 for vultures 4 for vultures+goliaths and 5 for science vessels. 6(I think?) for 3rd command center 8. 9, 0 for comsat. Some korean terrans follow this setup. Sea is great, watching that video at the minute. I was wondering about one thing though. He mentions his hotkey layout, and that STX Terrans were told (presumably) to copy it. I believe it is 1/2 - tanks, 3 - vultures, 4 - goliaths, 5 - vessels, 6 - expansion CC, and 7/8/9 - comstat. My main question is, how does he build production, I take this is in the late game when you need a lot of the hotkeys to control your large army. I have production on 3 - CC, 4 - Rax, 5 - Fac, 6 - Port, 7/8/9/0 - generally comstat. I use 1/2 as army hotkeys in the early game. How does he rally or make production smoothly in the late game? | ||
TelecoM
United States10583 Posts
On August 02 2014 16:11 puppykiller wrote: I'm only willing to rap battle u cuz I don't want to practice. Even though your classless tactics can't kiss that which my ass shits. Aghast and sick I laugh, grin and hiss at your antics. My calloused hand grips your pants quick clasping at your flacid phalous. Now stand pissed raveged stripped of your scavanged man bits. Also you and I both know I 3-0'd you in pvp. This is a matchup you play and I don't. After this you refused to play my Terran with your Toss when I asked you. Did you want me to bring this up because it seems like you did... I derive no joy from having beef with you because it is not important to my life. I don't wanna derail the thread anymore if you wanna message me call me out in the official grudge match thread where I will promptly go back to ignoring you because I prefer chatting with my practice partners and clanmates then having beef with someone who can't make peace. lol I love how people think typing is considered freestyling, so pathetic...and yea you beat me 3 times PvP then you wouldn't re me with your terran lol, kind have the story backwards a little buddy...... But regardless what does you beating me 3 times for the first time in your life make our overall score out to like ... 20 or 30 to 3 W/L ratio in my favor? | ||
Leon1das1
United States71 Posts
On August 02 2014 14:01 Ty2 wrote: Helpful Video Hi, I think this video would be helpful. Give it a watch sometime. Wow thanks. | ||
REDBLUEGREEN
Germany1903 Posts
On August 02 2014 21:13 mau5mat wrote: Sea is great, watching that video at the minute. I was wondering about one thing though. He mentions his hotkey layout, and that STX Terrans were told (presumably) to copy it. I believe it is 1/2 - tanks, 3 - vultures, 4 - goliaths, 5 - vessels, 6 - expansion CC, and 7/8/9 - comstat. My main question is, how does he build production, I take this is in the late game when you need a lot of the hotkeys to control your large army. I have production on 3 - CC, 4 - Rax, 5 - Fac, 6 - Port, 7/8/9/0 - generally comstat. I use 1/2 as army hotkeys in the early game. How does he rally or make production smoothly in the late game? Location hotkeys. I will use 1 location for factories, 1 for the rallypoint and 1 for the expansion that is most likely to get drop harassed. Rerallying process Click F2 (factory location) -> click factory -> F3 (rallypoint location) -> right click -> repeat with next factory That's the reason why you should have nicely ordered factory placement in your base, with some practice you can rerally all factories in 2-3 seconds. | ||
tmdtmdtmd
9 Posts
On August 03 2014 20:37 REDBLUEGREEN wrote: Location hotkeys. I will use 1 location for factories, 1 for the rallypoint and 1 for the expansion that is most likely to get drop harassed. Rerallying process Click F2 (factory location) -> click factory -> F3 (rallypoint location) -> right click -> repeat with next factory That's the reason why you should have nicely ordered factory placement in your base, with some practice you can rerally all factories in 2-3 seconds. That's not the best way to do rally though, the best way to do it is to crtl+# for each factory, then go to rally point location, then for i from 1 to numberOfFacts-1: rightclick, i++, like how you move your army, it's much faster and require no practice. Do the same whenever you build new facts. | ||
ArmadA[NaS]
United States346 Posts
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upro)wraith
Israel64 Posts
On August 04 2014 01:03 tmdtmdtmd wrote: That's not the best way to do rally though, the best way to do it is to crtl+# for each factory, then go to rally point location, then for i from 1 to numberOfFacts-1: rightclick, i++, like how you move your army, it's much faster and require no practice. Do the same whenever you build new facts. this is great in mid game but during the late game you already have 5-6 control groups of units and the rest used for scans. | ||
Cambium
United States16368 Posts
On August 04 2014 01:03 tmdtmdtmd wrote: That's not the best way to do rally though, the best way to do it is to crtl+# for each factory, then go to rally point location, then for i from 1 to numberOfFacts-1: rightclick, i++, like how you move your army, it's much faster and require no practice. Do the same whenever you build new facts. That is the "best" way to set rally points (i.e. what progamers do). By mid to late game, you won't have enough hotkeys for your factories, unless you reassign all your hotkeys just to set rally points. Doesn't take long to learn to set rally with function keys, and it will help you in the long run. | ||
ninazerg
United States7290 Posts
On August 02 2014 06:18 Heartland wrote: I only came into this thread to look for amusing ninazerg comments. I am happy I found what I was looking for I don't feel like I properly delivered, considering how badly the OP is trollbait. However, I decided to not be needlessly cruel to newcomers just because they don't know how to phrase certain things. On August 02 2014 18:33 evilfatsh1t wrote: can you 2 retards take your stupid fight to PMs Because this thread was so damn good before? If you truly, deep down in your heart, thought this should be handled in PMs, you should have PM'd both of the parties and asked politely for them to stop, but guess what? You posted a confrontational post in the thread. | ||
evilfatsh1t
Australia8521 Posts
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puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
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Salema
United Kingdom21 Posts
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tmdtmdtmd
9 Posts
On August 04 2014 19:02 ninazerg wrote: Because this thread was so damn good before? If you truly, deep down in your heart, thought this should be handled in PMs, you should have PM'd both of the parties and asked politely for them to stop, but guess what? You posted a confrontational post in the thread. This was the best thread ever until you came and ruined it. Thanks zerg. | ||
fearthequeen
United States781 Posts
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Leon1das1
United States71 Posts
On August 04 2014 19:50 Salema wrote: Download Idra's replay pack from TSL... he does the same safe, standard macro style in each game. Where exactly would I download that? | ||
rebdomine
6040 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/news-archive/115850-tsl-ladder-replay-packs Rather than linking to just Idra's pack. Here's a whole bunch! | ||
pebble444
Italy2477 Posts
this is also useful for a read; I give my noob opinion on the subject; I play terran and TvP is my favorite matchup to play. Its very peacefully aggresive. you have to sim-city correctly, especially vs early zealot agression. Zelots are much more easy to deal with, when your supply depot is above or to the right of your barracks. doing a wall in is even more effective. Do not forget to make units off your factories. More marines early on means you can be more aggresive. Try to find out very often where the enemy army is for the mid game. scan, vultures and intuition all help in this. count the number of zelots vs the number of dragons. balance out your army accordingaly, zelots= vultures dragoons=tanks. For arbiters, you can or make many goliath, or use science vessels, or make 1 milion turrets. it depends on your style. For carriers, the real answer is scouting it while they are in production; get goliath range anyway even if no carrier, its a good investment most of the times. Now for a good terran to post his in-game experience | ||
Leon1das1
United States71 Posts
On August 05 2014 11:44 rebdomine wrote: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/news-archive/115850-tsl-ladder-replay-packs Rather than linking to just Idra's pack. Here's a whole bunch! Thanks! | ||
icystorage
Jollibee19343 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/98223-roxkisbrat_ok-from-d-to-b here it is idk if the dl links still work but i learned a lot | ||
Leon1das1
United States71 Posts
On August 05 2014 20:29 icystorage wrote: Shit, I lost my BRAT_OK replay pack he went like 50-2 starting at D in iccup. I learned a lot in his climb especially in TvP and TvT http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/98223-roxkisbrat_ok-from-d-to-b here it is idk if the dl links still work but i learned a lot The download link is broken | ||
Socup
190 Posts
On July 29 2014 08:39 tmdtmdtmd wrote: Just switch to protoss, in bw protoss is the easiest and strongest race, a zealot has more hp than a tank and cost much less, just make 3 control group and make them auto attack terran main it's easy win. T is hard because you need to micro everything. You would only lose to a Terran player if that guy plays 24/7 and is 10 times better than you, but even then just make sure you recall on factories, win 100% of the time. But if you wanna be cool and not play the cheap race protoss, then keep practicing, you may win 1 out of 10 games, but when you do, it's sweet. User was warned for this post A zealot doesn't splash damage. A zealot doesn't have a range beyond their sight radius, either. | ||
Muff2n
United Kingdom246 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/86770-stylishs-fpvods-06-10-update His BOs are a bit out of date but this will not matter in the slightest. Right now you are at the stage where you need to: a) Not die in the early game to cheese b) Get mechanics good enough to carry about a BO. If you can do this you can then pick up other BOs as necessary. But here he suggests to start with an FD, which is nice and safe and then into a BO that will get you good at pumping units. Also see his other videos for some tricks (such as how to lay lots of vulture mines). Happy brood-war-ing. | ||
radley
Poland577 Posts
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On August 16 2014 00:46 radley wrote: There is nothing more funnier than beating protoss in terraprotoss vs protoss matchup. TvP is, in my opinion, for people who don't like themselves or like spending time on instant frustration. For me, TvZ is harder than TvP in every way Strategically and mechanically TvT i also harder than TvP | ||
JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On July 29 2014 14:17 Chameleon wrote: My real answer is watch the BratOK and Idra tvp games from the TSLs. That's what it's supposed to look like. Link to vod pls? I tried googling and searching TLPD but i failed ;/ | ||
pheer
5377 Posts
On August 05 2014 20:29 icystorage wrote: Shit, I lost my BRAT_OK replay pack he went like 50-2 starting at D in iccup. I learned a lot in his climb especially in TvP and TvT http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/98223-roxkisbrat_ok-from-d-to-b here it is idk if the dl links still work but i learned a lot On August 06 2014 00:15 Leon1das1 wrote: The download link is broken Here's a working link to it: http://goodgame.ru/demo/14058/download/ | ||
Silentness
United States2821 Posts
--- Your wall obviously wasn't tight because goons were slipping through it. (Good thing he didn't fully commit inside your main) Your 2nd CC was really LATE, but then again the Toss had a late natural expand as well (wtf LOL). He went 1 gate range, and then sat on 500 minerals for a while. He maxed out at like 200/200 and you had 90 supply WTF. You need to keep pumping out tanks & vultures. You pumped out a lot of SCVs tho! He had several moments in the game where he could just walk up and kill you. Looked like he was just toying with you. Also you had like 5-6k minerals. Put down more factories, keep pumping out vultures and tanks. --- Your main focus should be build order & macro. Also you had an armory, but no upgrades... | ||
Leon1das1
United States71 Posts
On September 02 2014 05:52 Silentness wrote: I watched the replay and noticed that your macro was just REALLY BAD. --- Your wall obviously wasn't tight because goons were slipping through it. (Good thing he didn't fully commit inside your main) Your 2nd CC was really LATE, but then again the Toss had a late natural expand as well (wtf LOL). He went 1 gate range, and then sat on 500 minerals for a while. He maxed out at like 200/200 and you had 90 supply WTF. You need to keep pumping out tanks & vultures. You pumped out a lot of SCVs tho! He had several moments in the game where he could just walk up and kill you. Looked like he was just toying with you. Also you had like 5-6k minerals. Put down more factories, keep pumping out vultures and tanks. --- Your main focus should be build order & macro. Also you had an armory, but no upgrades... :/ yup | ||
Soulforged
Latvia868 Posts
2)Pick a safe opening. One safe opening. Stick with it for a few months. Learn what kind of things P can do, and learn how a pro'd react to each of them(and how they'd scout them). Practice a lot until you know your adaptations and don't miss a beat in macro(that's a hard thing to do properly - start out with trying to do it perfect at least when not under pressure, etc). Crucial thing is knowing the main adaptations - adapting to probe cut allins off [1,2,3] bases, greedy expansions with lack of both units and tech to defend it, tech/macro styles, tech allins, early proxy play, knowing how various P openings change the dynamics and how you should react - etc. Learn how various maps affect your strategy. 3)Pick another opening. Repeat. Having a good variety of openings and knowing how to react to [anything] with them, will protect you from early game blind build order advantages(not that much on ladder - but when it comes to BO's). That will also make it very hard to prepare against you. Just aim for solid play and you'll be doing great. When both players have no idea what they're doing, P has the advantage in this matchup...but that's it. | ||
Leon1das1
United States71 Posts
http://repdepot.net/download.php?type=rep&id=55924&name=Leon1 vs vi3rne13.rep In this game i went for a strong fd, obviously my execution sucked, however I am working on that. My question is how to fight. In this game I base trade him without knowing about the hidden bases. When I saw him push with dragoons should I have retreated to hold it off, base traded or gone and killed his other expos (if I had scouted correctly). | ||
Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
To your question on how to fight, you should have comsat stations ready when you start your push and take 2-3 SCVs with it and make turrets. Literally one dt killed your whole army because you didn't do it. The decision to retreat and defend or just push further depends on how strong the counter attack is. I would say if you only see a couple of goons, reinforcements should be able to handle it with the help of your SCVs at the natural. It is usually more important to prevent further counter attacks, so you should proceed to make a contain outside of his base. | ||
Silentness
United States2821 Posts
Your academy was really late! I'm surprised he didn't punish you with DTs earlier in the game. This game was really weird though. Looked like a practice casual game. The guy was pumping out scouts and wasn't even bothering to build probes at his expansions as if to even the fight. Your wall & late factory would get you killed against an aggressive player. TvT fast vulture speed/mines would straight up kill you. TvP quick DTs, 2 gate range with pressure and etc. Also his reavers did way too much damage to your economy! Gotta get them turrets up quicker around your base to limit his harass potential. --- On a positive note: You're building more vultures & tanks | ||
BB_Medics
Poland4 Posts
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puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
Also if you ever see protoss is on same gate count as you have factories, throw a few facts down and kill his ass. He is either teching or expoing too greedy (this is one of the advantages of faster academy builds). | ||
iloveav
Poland1464 Posts
As an informative Note, I am a Protoss player who does not like PvP, thus with my friends who play P, i play T. Originally i got owned extreamly hard, and it took me around a month to start coming back with a bang. Here are the the things I learned about TvP from both the Terran and protoss perspective: A) Protoss relay A LOT on their observers. They need them to estimate timings, see army movements and obviously defuse mines. It is crucial to deny as much of that vision as possible, while investing in it as little as possible (Flash used to start with 3 goliaths and fast ups/vesel. This might seem like a crazy opening due to the fact that he goes fast 3rd base, but if the obs of the toss can be sniped at any given time, mines give extra room. Also it limits DT/Reaver builds severly). B) Scan timings are crucial. Especialy in the first 10 minutes of the game. Flash ahd this mapped out almost to perfection (almost, costed him one game), and he would not invest in things not required based on the information his scan revealed. Learning scan timing is hard however due to it actually beeing dependand on your own. C) Overall matchup understanding: When to go out with vultures and when to not. When to start your first push and how to do it. How to set up your base for efficiency. All those are learned from watching replays of people better than you, and by practice. There is not an easy way around it. | ||
radley
Poland577 Posts
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L_Master
United States7946 Posts
every real terran could beat himself in pvt. I get your point, but that doesn't quite hold true all the way to the top. If you look at SOSPA games protoss actually holds only a 46.3% WR against terran. As you get way good the match up begins to even out and at truly top level may begin to favor terran is anything. Obviously different ballgame at normal people ranks. | ||
vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
every real terran could beat himself in pvt. Lol. What a pile of bullshit. Terran has a high skill ceiling and a high skill floor. Protoss has a high skill ceiling, but a low skill floor. Only a novice level Terran could beat himself with Protoss. Once you have ascended past the floor, it doesn't matter where it lies. The more you master the race, and the higher your skill level becomes, the less likely you would be to beat yourself with an easier race - because you are no longer standing on the skill floor. It is irrelevant. Do you think Flash in 2010 would beat himself in PvT? If you do, I say that you are wrong. He mastered Terran, not Protoss - although he would surely be good with Protoss. Just not as good as with Terran. It's not 2007 any more. PvT is no longer slightly P favoured on most maps. Terrans are no longer struggling against fast carrier builds. Stop whining. Even back then, whining was pathetic. Try to solve the problem at hand (like Flash and co. solved it in 2007) or switch race. Those are your options. Whining is not necessary. | ||
puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
I don't think any player thinks that pvt/tvp is imbalanced at a pro level though. | ||
zimp
Hungary950 Posts
*on FS | ||
ninazerg
United States7290 Posts
On September 23 2014 18:55 vOdToasT wrote: What a pile of bullshit. Terran has a high skill ceiling and a high skill floor. Protoss has a high skill ceiling, but a low skill floor. Yeah? What rank are you? Only B+? ... uh ... | ||
vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On September 24 2014 03:05 ninazerg wrote: Yeah? What rank are you? Only B+? ... uh ... "Every real Terran" I'm a real Terran. Mong is a real Terran. The original poster is a real Terran. Any one who currently uses Terran as his main race is a "real Terran". Conclusion: Not every real Terran would defeat himself with Protoss. | ||
TelecoM
United States10583 Posts
On September 13 2014 23:24 puppykiller wrote: Also if you ever see protoss is on same gate count as you have factories, throw a few facts down and kill his ass. He is either teching or expoing too greedy (this is one of the advantages of faster academy builds). ... This isn't even good advice.... Also, The only real way we will be able to test this theory is if someone can somehow clone vOdToasT and see if who would win in a fight, himself as Terran, or himself as Protoss.. | ||
puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
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fearthequeen
United States781 Posts
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On September 26 2014 16:54 fearthequeen wrote: *pulls up chair, pops popcorn for incoming telecom comment* DIS GON' BE GOOD | ||
amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On September 26 2014 15:01 puppykiller wrote: A protoss far better than you told me that trick. so about that 8 factory off 2 base game you played one time... | ||
puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
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Sero
United States687 Posts
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puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
Obv you need acad, but its a ez way to beat a greedy toss if u open with an fe and follow up with a fact and an acad (and not a fast armory). | ||
Soulforged
Latvia868 Posts
The 1.5x gateway-to-factory rule is just a simplification for unit strength and production speed over time, but it doesn't account for the current army comparison, push time, tech, map and positioning, etc. It is a decent guiding factor for beginners, though. | ||
SnowFantasy
4173 Posts
On September 28 2014 21:16 Soulforged wrote: That advice is just a generalization/simplification, no need to read into it too much. F.e. mid-game low gate count can be compensated by having a reaver or dts, and so on. By having tech you say? hmmm Anyway, the solution is always to have make more factories and go kill him. full yolo | ||
darktreb
United States3014 Posts
TvP is hard at lower levels because: * It's very unforgiving of your mistakes * There are so many possible kinds mistakes that can be made, at literally every minute of the game, and in virtually every situation (offensive, defensive, blocking cheese, even just not getting your gas stolen) * AND you don't get "handed" wins as often as other matchups In my opinion, it has the highest combination of these three things of any the three non-mirror matchups. + Show Spoiler [ZvT] + For example, ZvT is also very unforgiving of your mistakes, and you also can mess up at every minute, but because T is mechanically quite challenging, you will get handed wins because a T grossly mismicroed or something more often than Protoss players will hand wins to Terran. One thing players at lower levels often don't realize is how many of their wins resulted more from the other player handing you a win than you winning the game. In TvP, you have to earn a higher percentage of your wins, and I think realizing this can benefit your mentality toward getting better in TvP immensely. Most low level players aren't disciplined about reviewing their play, because just getting good at executing a solid build / strat, and memorizing a few triggers for hitting, is good enough. + Show Spoiler [compare to TvZ] + For example you can get a great winrate at low level TvZ just by understanding when to Sunken bust (and critically, when NOT to try), and learning how to identify when you have a tech advantage and the Z will have no chance to block your push at the first Vessel so you just need to play solid, deny expos, for the next two or three minutes and then go and win. With TvP, this is less true. There are so many more variants of things that can happen in that matchup. This creates a vicious cycle effect in difficulty because you'll lose for so many different reasons that it's hard to keep track and know what to focus on getting better at, unless you're disciplined about reviewing your play and identify the "root" error in each game. Otherwise, you make one mistake in a game, it snowballs, and by the end you think P is stronger in every possible way, but really you needed to prevent that first mistake. + Show Spoiler [compare to TvZ] + This is another reason why a lot of people find TvZ easier - you can come back a lot more easily, because Z can so easily accidentally throw their entire army at you in a bad way and you can go from 25% chance to win to 75% chance in 30 seconds, and you'll think you were good but you got handed a win more than anything. As some more examples: * Not handling a Gas steal + early Zealot pressure well can singlehandedly set you back for the rest of the game (the "root" error) in a way that snowballs into more errors, thus distracting you from your "root" error. * Missing a timing by 10 seconds can result in a DT doing literally 20X as much damage if not ending the game. * Missing a turret timing by 10 seconds, or not spotting something on the minimap, or messing up your turret placement / forgetting one, can result in a Reaver doing 20X as much damage. * Very minor positioning mistakes can be the difference between losing to bulldog and coming out way ahead. * Forgetting to scan for Carriers in a hectic game can be the difference between winning and losing. * Accidentally sieging when you didn't want to, or sieging too late, can undo a build that was perfect up till that point. * A mistake in placing your mines can backfire and destroy your push. * Being unprepared and out of position for a Recall can swing a game that you were solidly ahead in the entire time for. * Trying to push into the Protoss main (especially up a ramp), and relaxing because you think you're ahead can be a recipe for disaster (you can literally lose to Zealots coming out of unrallied Gateways alone). * The general tide of a long game swings in P's favor by default, because there's a point when the first 3 bases are drained and it's much harder for T to keep up their economy compared to P. ... and the list goes on and on and on. Of course there are a lot of different ways to lose in every matchup, but TvP probably has the longest and broadest list of ways at lower levels. If you really want to get over the TvP hump, you probably need to be more serious about reviewing your play than was required to steadily get better in other matchups, which is why I put the stuff I'm talking about in the "psychological" category more than anything. Otherwise, you should just play casually and for fun, but just be prepared to be frustrated more by TvP than any other matchup. All the stuff I'm saying applies to playing ANY matchup in BW (and most games really) in general, but TvP is the matchup that exposes them the most and the earliest when you're at a low level but trying to climb. That's why I think it stands out as a matchup to so many players, especially those who've played multiple races and matchups frequently. Again, I'm mainly talking about LOWER level players here - not commenting on the general balance level of the matchup. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24917 Posts
1) Opening. I feel its important to have an idea of what you want to do to open the game. I usually 1 rax FE, get a bunker asap and fac soon after my cc is building. Macro and get academy for scans and eventually an ebay. Siege FE is also solid but as mentioned, old. Doing a FD isn't a bad idea either and it's the most common these days so I would focus on that. I'm also learning to FD. 2) Macro (workers/units). I know it's a general term but really, once you expand, just make workers and add factories when you have the money. Of course, don't neglect your defense and add 5 fac at once if its weak, do it only if you can safely (and scouting helps you make that decision) then keep checking back to make units from the factories once they are done. 3) Decision making in battle: I feel this is really important and links to what darktreb said above. I've lost count of games where I've had the lead but made a bad mistake leading to me losing my army and either losing outright to the counter attack or barely surviving but just hanging on to lose later. Basically, this comes down to reading the situation and think of possible things that can take place. Your army is about to engage his, can I take it on? yes? ok, what's the best way to do it? Do I have enough vultures to siege all my tanks (if low vulture count, zealots will close in easily)? Did I split my tanks well enough or are they clumped? Do I lay mines with my vultures during the battle or focus on protecting the tanks and providing a buffer (yes, I know laying mines is also a buffer lol)? Then once you add goliath, vessels, etc... is it better to target shuttles or focus on main army? there's a lot more questions like those to think about and this is all supposed to happen (you making the decision) in seconds so I think only experience will help. It's just something fun to think about lol. Above all, don't forget to macro even as the battle goes on (after you positioned your units)! On September 29 2014 09:21 darktreb wrote: * Not handling a Gas steal + early Zealot pressure well can singlehandedly set you back for the rest of the game (the "root" error) in a way that snowballs into more errors, thus distracting you from your "root" error. * Missing a timing by 10 seconds can result in a DT doing literally 20X as much damage if not ending the game. * Missing a turret timing by 10 seconds, or not spotting something on the minimap, or messing up your turret placement / forgetting one, can result in a Reaver doing 20X as much damage. * Very minor positioning mistakes can be the difference between losing to bulldog and coming out way ahead. * Forgetting to scan for Carriers in a hectic game can be the difference between winning and losing. * Accidentally sieging when you didn't want to, or sieging too late, can undo a build that was perfect up till that point. * A mistake in placing your mines can backfire and destroy your push. * Being unprepared and out of position for a Recall can swing a game that you were solidly ahead in the entire time for. * Trying to push into the Protoss main (especially up a ramp), and relaxing because you think you're ahead can be a recipe for disaster (you can literally lose to Zealots coming out of unrallied Gateways alone). * The general tide of a long game swings in P's favor by default, because there's a point when the first 3 bases are drained and it's much harder for T to keep up their economy compared to P. Agree. I've lost games because I didn't do well against early zealot pressure or another time on La Mancha, I had the much better eco but my ebay was late and I lost to dts (happened twice in a row that time lol). Carriers coming out of nowhere is also another common thing that I've lost to. Not sure if I've ever lost to zealots from unrallied gateways but I don't doubt that I've sieged up in the main when I shouldn't have lol. For me, I always found TvP annoying. Mostly because I could never do any early aggression because either my control or decision making was bad (or macro slipped) which sets you back if you lose your early army and have to defend before grabbing your natural as the Protoss grabs a third. TvZ though, I can play the matchup all day. So many different builds, lots of possible fun micro and even though terran units are fragile, so are zerg units so until ultralisks/defilers are out, there's constant action (for the most part). | ||
puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
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DMarS
Mexico17 Posts
My bio vs zerg is very good, but my mech, tvp above tvz or tvt, is horrible, i lose my army, i dont have much game sense of tvp, i dont know when to attack, even i dont know how it woks a 5 fact push, or a flash build, dont know if expand, or what units to get exactly, i usually get a hell of tanks, then add more facs and get vultures for a push, but it all dies, sometimes even before i get to the p base. help? | ||
DepressedOne
United States190 Posts
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seom
South Africa491 Posts
On February 22 2015 05:39 DMarS wrote: Hello all, im´m having lots of troubles in TvP, im T. My bio vs zerg is very good, but my mech, tvp above tvz or tvt, is horrible, i lose my army, i dont have much game sense of tvp, i dont know when to attack, even i dont know how it woks a 5 fact push, or a flash build, dont know if expand, or what units to get exactly, i usually get a hell of tanks, then add more facs and get vultures for a push, but it all dies, sometimes even before i get to the p base. help? you gotta learn timings and move out when you have an upgrade or army advantage. the timing is all based on scouting what the P is doing and your choice of build. its difficult to learn timings at first and your window is often pretty small, watch pro games like the other poster said. how many tanks do you have in your push, ideally you should have 1 - 2 control groups with the rest in vults (gols and vessels too if he has arbiters). reinforce your push with vultures rallied to the front line. you need to learn how to rapidly change your factory rally locations using F-keys. are you doing a slow push? slow push is an art that takes time to learn how to do properly. at cross positions it is generally not recommended but at close positions it can be a thing of beauty. hug the edge of the map and lay mines to prevent flanks on the other side. if you are just doing a normal push it is usually better to take out his expos rather than going for the main. you need to check P expansion timings. use scans. check when he is adding gateways / expanding and react accordingly. learn the timing windows. keep the P in the dark, eliminate observers so he doesn't know when you are adding on facts or moving out. if you get to super late game a maxed 3/3 terren mech ball is basically the most powerful late-game army. it will come down to control and how effective his arbiters can be. are you using your vults correctly in the early - mid game to harrass and get map control? do you have any replays? your questions are too broad to really help you... | ||
DMarS
Mexico17 Posts
Here´s a recent TvP of mine. In both reps im posting i lose. I´m pretty bad at mech u.u http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=56304 here´s a rep of mine in TvZ mech, the guy i play with doesn´t rush me or early attack me, but in any of those cases, there u have it, i know im bad, i just need some advices of both reps. Help pls :c | ||
Cryoc
Germany909 Posts
After you expand there is a lot of work to be done. First you should have gotten your ebay first instead of your 2nd factory because you almost knew nothing about the Protoss opening, you just assumed he fast expanded when he did in fact go 1 base robo. You were lucky that he did not go for fast reaver. Despite him getting an extremely late reaver and waiting a long time before harrassing he still did a lot of damage, because you build 3 turrets in your natural but none in your main. Again if you know nothing about protoss, be safe and get atleast 1 turret at your main and natural. What lost you the game though was most likely producing almost no SCVs and getting continuously supply blocked after you expanded. Before the reaver arrived, you were already 10 SCVs behind. This and the damage from the reaver harrass leads to the 100 supply difference before any real engagement happens. The TvZ game was from a strategic point of view pretty bad, too. Your wall is not ling tight and even if it were, an aggressive 9 Pool would have probably still killed you because the SCVs wouldn't be in time to repair a wall at the natural. Again you knew nothing about the opponent because of a lacking scout. You didn't scout before the vulture was out. Yet you go for tank with siege mode as first units after your initial vulture and don't even build an armory. Zergs will most of time go mutas as fast as they can, so Goliaths should be your core unit. This Zerg didn't after much later, so you were lucky. Generally watching those games, even with those questionable decisions, I would say you basically lose at the macro front. You are too often supply blocked and get a huge bank even though you have little SCVs. When you get supply blocked, don't just build one, you have like 1k minerals most of the time, so just build like 3. | ||
DMarS
Mexico17 Posts
I get really mad at the end of the game because everybody tells me that i forgot turrets, and to mine, to expand, or to attack, to harass, as they would really know what to do. I don´t know how to poperly use vultures to harass, and to defend to. I just f****ng forget to build vessel, or to upgrade things or weapons and other tasks. Like emp´s research, to close the entrance of my 3rth exp, to put turrets, etc. i don´t know when to attack, how to harass, and always, everry time, i forget to scan the toss bases, to search for uncoming tech, like arbiter, carrier, dt, etc. My god, sometimes i really get mad, and when toss does recall at my base, i just quit. I would like someone to help me pls. Here´s a rep of a recent TvP of mine (nick's SBL-MarS). Could someone post some tutorial like the Stylish vods? tips like the bio ones in TvZ, that really made me level up my bio, but in tvp im struggling a lot. Thanks anyways to anyone who decide to reply and leave comments, help, any kind of thing that might help me realize what i need to do, and how works really TvP. | ||
DMarS
Mexico17 Posts
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DMarS
Mexico17 Posts
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puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
I will agree though it took me months to get my first tvp win whereas I got wins in the other mu's right away. | ||
skzlime
Hungary462 Posts
my qualifications: CLICK concerning the above replay, in chronological order as i am watching: 1. your wall is not zealot tight. RAX - SUPPLY is zealot tight, SUPPLY - RAX is not. place supply to the right of barracks if you want simcity. (tips for zealot tight, but marine can get through: CC - RAX // SUPPLY - CC // SUPPLY - FACT. you can combine these, for example: RAX - SUPPLY - CC // CC - RAX - SUPPLY - FACT) CLICK. scroll down for terran walls 2. your fact is really late. put it as soon as you get 100 gas. you might even want to put it down before 2nd supply 3. your build order is bad. you can use liqupedia for help: TvP builds i think you should focus on just one build order now. 4. you are already behind because of very bad opening. you could have made a tank by the time those first 2 goons arrive. 5. obvious mistakes: no clear early game plan, supply block, sitting SCVs 6. bad control. you just give him your first tank. that is your most important early game unit, and you trade it for nothing. ... too many small mistakes to list. my feelings: you are way in over your head. you try to play 3 base, but you can barely maintain 1 base play somewhat okay. of course you feel lost. do you run? you are like a beginner runner who wants to run a marathon with no training, and every time you go out to run you want to run a whole marathon. if that was your goal, you would need godlike willpower to not give up before you actually do it. instead you should first run short distances pretty slowly, then you run more, then you can run faster, then you can mix it up, etc. delayed gratification might be important for success, but no gratification will definitely make you fail for good. my suggestions: 1. keep it simple at first. play only one opening over and over. i recommend this based on your level: 3 tank rush you will probably lose to DTs, but this is very strong vs everything else. you will eventually learn to deal with DTs too with your own variation of this build. 2. have a game plan. don't worry too much about what your opponent is doing, because you are not confident and comfortable enough yet to react accordingly anyway. note: keep in mind, you should forget this when you are good enough! 3. all those things you say you forget... those are all mistakes you know you make. first try to prevent the mistakes you know you make. then you can worry about mistakes you don't know you make. then we can actually help you. | ||
slytown
Korea (South)1411 Posts
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vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
On March 26 2015 23:27 slytown wrote: winning tvp these days seems to be about defense. never push till u have at least 12 tanks and even then dont try to kill him. for lower levels (this is mostly knowledge by my observing pro streams/games) i suggest building a tank line towards ur third and constantly having a small group of vultures running around fantasy style. vultures are cheap and work as excellent multitaskers. focus on scanning a lot for tech and forming a massive tank army. You have to know when to attack. If the Protoss is greedy, then you should kill him with 3 tanks and 5 marines. If certain things happen in the midgame, then you can attack from 2 bases and 3 - 6 factories. Flash did it all of the time. Adapt to what happens in the game and use your mind, don't just do the same late game doom push every game. If every thing is even, then you can't go and kill him any more than he can go and kill you, so attacking no matter what is just as bad as sitting in your base until late game no matter what. | ||
)Sky(BloOd
14 Posts
scout early if your scout is denied, take absolutely no risks. your defense has to be bulletproof. in my experience, most lower level P go for one of 3 things: zealot rush 2 gate range DT | ||
QuietIdiot
7004 Posts
Know your perimeters of defense, imagine what you would do as as protoss player, and know your mechanical limitations when you go about harassing protoss economy. Also, spider mines are fucking annoying. Use them. | ||
Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
I've lost more games than I'm willing to count purely because I didn't defend well enough against recall. It's so important you learn to deal with it. | ||
DMarS
Mexico17 Posts
Learning the early game it's a great thing i can practice for now. But it's simply.... God, it makes me almost hit the pc sometimes :l Now woud be very generous and great an advice on how to not rage, or get mad, or be stressed and under pressure every game :D Any help? | ||
Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
On April 03 2015 06:18 DMarS wrote: Lol, these are great advices, i mean, i'm just losing every single tvp i play. Learning the early game it's a great thing i can practice for now. But it's simply.... God, it makes me almost hit the pc sometimes :l Now woud be very generous and great an advice on how to not rage, or get mad, or be stressed and under pressure every game :D Any help? This I can help with as I used to get really mad. Just forget about winning and losing. Forget about whatever rank you are. Just play each game as it's own entity and try your hardest. You may lose, but who cares. You had fun! | ||
skzlime
Hungary462 Posts
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DMarS
Mexico17 Posts
I'm uploading fpvods on youtube, maybe you can help me more with this to improve. And, yea, those are good advices. I just try to concentrate the more in a game, I'm just not that adapted yet to TvP | ||
puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
It is hard to evaluate the game since you were behind significantly off of openings but it seems besides that you are on the right track build order wise. You just want to touch up things like scv distribution constant worker/unit production. | ||
broodwarhd2
8 Posts
On April 05 2015 22:49 DMarS wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DQtfhTRNXw&index=3&list=PLFfMObdxMJoocYv1U2VCJG-m1z6PpK53T I'm uploading fpvods on youtube, maybe you can help me more with this to improve. And, yea, those are good advices. I just try to concentrate the more in a game, I'm just not that adapted yet to TvP I would try to focus on a shorter build order and work on mastering that first. GO for something like 2 base 4 fact, 2 base 5 fact etc. Make sure your scv production is rock solid so you get your mineral income nicely and are able to produce a lot of vults (vults are super powerful in 2 base pushes when unit numbers are smaller). Then do it over and over again to get a good feel for the terran "push". 3 base and longer games are very difficult for a novice terran and it is more difficult to grasp the key concepts of the terran race when playin for those | ||
DMarS
Mexico17 Posts
Check my channel pls, it´s only BW FPVOD's At this point, I've got only 1:1 videos, ignore the Hotkey and Scot trainer test i did. Pls help me out. Honestly, i'm not looking for likes or subscribers. I want to improve. So, check it out, subscribe if you want, and bla bla, you know | ||
TBone-
United States2309 Posts
On April 07 2015 05:11 DMarS wrote: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCMQzsjlWc1GbBHqWtPoQEWQ Check my channel pls, it´s only BW FPVOD's At this point, I've got only 1:1 videos, ignore the Hotkey and Scot trainer test i did. Pls help me out. Honestly, i'm not looking for likes or subscribers. I want to improve. So, check it out, subscribe if you want, and bla bla, you know In one sentence you say you are not looking for subs, and the next sentence you say subscribe if you want O_o. | ||
DMarS
Mexico17 Posts
I'm not like a gosu to upload good quality fpvod's and ask for likes ir subscribers. I'm asking for help. | ||
doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
You need to clean up your build order, you need to at least get your first tank out on time. I think a good rule of thumb for starting to learn tvp, is that besides not dying, the early game is primarily about massing tanks. I noticed you had alot of spare gas, add machine shops/factories if you have to: vultures are awesome and all, but you can't really push with them, and honestly in the early game, you pretty much want to have more tanks than vultures. I frankly wouldn't bother messing around with dropships yet, I noticed your multitask really struggled and you never really massed enough tanks for the whole game to realistically even stay alive. If your opponent didn't have such atrocious macro he could have just walked straight into your nat and killed you. I felt like dropship harass distracted you from the basics of TvP and until you can amass a large enough army to at least push out, it's probably the thing you want to focus on at the moment. First you really want to get to the stage where you have at least enough tanks to not die to a protoss charging into your nat (this is supposed to be pretty easy). The next step is you want enough tanks/vultures to actually start a push, pushes are the bread and butter of TvP, no amount of dropship/vulture harass is going to get around having to learn to push. So this is the sort of game state you should aim to reach if only to learn some of the core skills of TvP. I would suggest using a build order like the 6 fact timing push. It's not very standard, and considered somewhat overaggressive in this day and age (in fact it's just not a great BO and you will lose lots), but it gets you to amass a fairly sizeable army and fight with it, which are two things at the core of TvP you really need to learn. | ||
DMarS
Mexico17 Posts
And macro is the key i guess, to defend well my 3th exp. Which I'm struggling so much :l Even more to mantain attention to the main and the other 2 exp, specially the 3th :c Sometimes, when i just lose and lose, i continue playing, but really effortless and barely concentrating on what I really need to do :l And i feel like i waste time playing like that, and that i really dont learn or practice well a goddamn thing. I really want to improve ;n; Thanks for the comment, I'll start with massing up, and do like 5 fac timing, ir maybe 6. I guess sometimes could work :D | ||
Falling
Canada10904 Posts
First you really want to get to the stage where you have at least enough tanks to not die to a protoss charging into your nat (this is supposed to be pretty easy). That was one of my thoughts when watching that 12 Nex/ DT vod. Yes the Protoss was a bastard and took out 2 tanks with dts, but after that you were super vulnerable to a more aggressively minded Protoss. There was only one tank on the high ground and a handful of vultures for quite a long time. I kept expecting more factories to go down or at least more tanks to be made, but instead a 3rd and drop tech was advanced. One shuttle loaded with zealots to pick off the tank and a control group of goons, have easily smashed the natural- and you didn't wall off the third for a very long time. Fortunately he didn't have an obs (because he went dt, I guess), because otherwise the third would have completely died and even then, a more aggressive Protoss could have sniped it at any time afterwards. Yes macro is important, but smart building placement for siege tanks to hide behind can give Protoss a real headache if they try to push in. I'm just a barely D+ Protoss, so take it as you will. | ||
Falling
Canada10904 Posts
I would re-evaluate some of your game plans. What is your goal for getting into the midgame? You build your third early, but do not expand with it. You get two armouries, but you don't really have a comparable army. You go for drop tech, but after you've already made the third so drop tech is late, but then you still don't expand. (I'm also pretty sure you got goliath range super, super early.) I'm not Terran, but I play against quite a few and to me, drop tech at this stage of the game is to put the protoss on their back foot and therefore likely is built prior to expanding to your third. Making your third first, then getting drop tech, and then still not expanding doesn't make much sense to me. From the two videos I've seen, you aren't actually getting into the mineral lines with your drops and so you don't really put them behind economically. And this game, you actually put yourself very, very behind because you shoot up to 2000 minerals and 900 gas and capping at 70 supply for a very long time. Either your drop needs to come sooner when Protoss haven't already made cannons to defend or you might want to drop the idea of drops for the time being. It IS a fun play style, but the drops aren't really doing anything right now and if you aren't spending that money, the Protoss is just going to steam roll you with pure numbers. Instead of putting the Protoss behind, it's putting you behind. A cheaper alternative might be to just have more vulture raids on the ground, looking for holes, rather than specifically investing in drop technology. If you find a hole to exploit, well and good. If not, mine the map and keep macroing. 13:00 Again, you need an earlier supply depot wall at your third so protoss can't just walk up your ramp and clean out your entire army and snipe your cc. Also, I wonder what your scv count is at this stage, because less than a full control group of scv's were sent to your third, and there were almost no scvs left over- that suggest to me not enough scvs were made. 17:00 Don't forget to transfer workers to your third (a second time). @21:00 So yeah, at this point Protoss has expanded across the entire map. But that, I think goes back to not being able to make a large enough army back when you were dropping ten minutes before. You simply couldn't push out onto the map because your army got built too late. Another thing to consider- mine out all the expansions the Protoss is likely to expand to. When they get cleared out, you at least have an idea when they are thinking of expanding. Of course the more mines out on the map, the better vision you have. But mining all the bases is a great starting point if you don't have the apm to mine out the entire map. | ||
doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
On April 08 2015 10:37 DMarS wrote: I really think sometimes, when i lose and see the large number of toss units that still attacking my natural, that macro is the really thing i must learn and practice more than anything right now. But my friend on brood war keep telling me to micro better, and to play ums maps. And macro is the key i guess, to defend well my 3th exp. Which I'm struggling so much :l Even more to mantain attention to the main and the other 2 exp, specially the 3th :c Sometimes, when i just lose and lose, i continue playing, but really effortless and barely concentrating on what I really need to do :l And i feel like i waste time playing like that, and that i really dont learn or practice well a goddamn thing. I really want to improve ;n; Thanks for the comment, I'll start with massing up, and do like 5 fac timing, ir maybe 6. I guess sometimes could work :D I think the problem here is, your friend is just completely wrong. TvP is a slightly more micro intensive matchup than PvT, and you need to micro somewhat especially when your army is still small if you want to engage their army. But: a) Thats not the same kind of micro as vulture harass, which is itself a nice skill to have, but the gains are marginal compared to having solid macro. It's worth improving your micro at some stage, you are not at that stage yet. b) The point of micro intensive builds is to do economic damage and/or keep your opponent on the defensive. Eg to slow their economic expansion until you are ready to push out. T just doesn't have the micro intensive cheeses that can end the game like DT/Reaver drops or fast mutalisks, all the micro intensive strategies in TvP need to be followed up by a strong push or aggressive expansion (then into a strong push, so yeah, having lots of units and knowing how to use it always going to be important). So without solid macro, your fancy micro won't win you any games. Micro is flashy and impressive looking, but macro is effective. c) When you don't have the multitask to effectively macro/expand/position your army/maintain map awareness and presence/harass at the same time, the first thing you drop is the harass. It has the least gain for the most effort. So the tl;dr version is: Ignore your friend, your feeling is correct, what you need most to improve is your macro. Not only is micro pointless without solid macro, you aren't even practising the more useful kind of micro at the moment. When you can consistently get into the midgame with a large army and push, you need to learn to position your army for pushes/lay mines/battlefield micro. Until then, concentrate solely on being able to get to that point of the game as consistently and as cleanly as possible. Also just fyi the 6 fact push I was referring two is done off 2 bases and not three (eg just your nat and your main). Aside from being a pretty bad/all-in build order, it's also especially not suited to fighting spirit due to the safe 3rd bases. But it will get you to the midgame with a big army consistently (if you do it right), and gets you to a situation where you get to practice some of the more core elements of TvP (even if you are going to be probably at a build order disadvantage while doing it). Also means don't do any dropship harass, dropships off 2 bases means you have to do crippling damage or virtually guarantee an unwinnable economic deficit. Once you can hit the timing for the push consistently and have had enough practice at actual pushing, then you can adjust by reducing factory count and pushing/securing your third instead of pushing to kill them. Eventually transitioning into taking a relatively early third base as is appropriate for the map. This will give you a chance to actually practice the more important skills in TvP even if you lose, rather than having to focus on more marginal skills(like dropship and vulture harass) that you don't really get to see the results of unless you have mastered the basics. | ||
vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
Even if you're playing aggressively, for example, with the style that attacks constantly, trading efficiently, while expanding - macro should still be learned first, because if you don't have enough units, then you don't have any units with which to be aggressive, and make good trades. 4 - 6 factory all ins, and dropship play from 1 or 2 bases, requires very good game sense and strategy in order to be anything but a cointoss all in. You have to know when the situation is right for it. However, at low level, you can count on your opponent being bad, and force it to work. If you execute a 4 - 6 fact all in perfectly, or a 2 base dropship style perfectly, he will mess up, and you won't, which will make you win even when you "shouldn't" win - while learning useful skills like micro, macro, and multi tasking. | ||
seom
South Africa491 Posts
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DMarS
Mexico17 Posts
I make goliaths and vessel, but it´s really hard to counter it. I think some times o making wraiths with cloak, but not always works and it's a waste of minerals. What should i do in these cases? Carriers transition. And... what sould i do in a normal late game? Go for the toss expansions? Be only turtling, dropping? BTW, thanks, those advices you gave me really make me focus on what i have to practice (; | ||
Falling
Canada10904 Posts
Hard to tell without a replay though- if your other games are any indication, you probably got behind in the midgame with macro problems- the Carrier switch is likely just the coup de grace. Also, I really don't think late game matters nearly so much as midgame. Fix your midgame and everything will go better in the late game. Very often there is nothing to fix in the late game because all the problems started much earlier- at least I find that is true at my level of play. | ||
DMarS
Mexico17 Posts
In this game, i think, i play better, and there's the carrier problem i talked about. I dunno, i just keep loosing with al toss i play, low or high level :l | ||
Falling
Canada10904 Posts
There's a lot of execution things on your build that you'll need an actual Terran to help you with at this point- like I think you are overmaking your first turrets too early, but another Terran would know better. However as a general note, your scv production is very, very sporadic. You go for long periods of time making none and then queue 5 all at once. And then go for long periods without producing scvs. As a result, your scv saturationquite sparse compared the Terrans I play against (like Qikz.) I'm not sure if you remade enough scvs after getting recalled- I wouldn't be surprised if you had 40ish workers mining rather than 50 or 60. This will result in much smaller armies than you ought to have. I still haven't got to your Carriers yet- but there is sooo much room for improvement in the spending department and not getting supply capped at 126 and 150, etc that I think you'd be better off worrying about that. Or sitting at 120 supply with 3000/ 3000. You knocked out his 4th which is good, but I think you could have had 200/200 at that point and then you dropped down to 83 supply with 4000/3000 before finally reinforcing your army. Also, Terran's typically don't mind expanding towards Protoss because the slow advance of Tanks can protect the tanks and your army isn't as spread out as you are expanding along your attack path. Whereas a Protoss wants to abuse a spread out Terran with recalls. Ok, now the Carriers. From my perspective that was a suspicious amount of time to see no army whatsoever. After he failed to defend his fourth, there was not a peep from his army. His main should've been gathering a new army and you should've seen a new army rallying in his new main (his 5th) preparing to bust out. The space went for so long, that even if he didn't try to bust down, you ought to have seen a backstab or something. That should set off alarm bells and it would be worth scanning around to see if he is tech switching- if you find his new army- well and good- a scan in front of his natural ought to identify that. But a bigger army would've eliminated his fifth anyways and he'd have few if any mining bases. ....and at this point you don't really have an economy. Hm. Yeah, can't be more than 40 scvs. So yeah, seems like game over at 34 minutes as you have no economy and he has critical mass Carriers. (Except that he isn't good at Carrier micro like me and FS is super open and not particularly good for Carriers.) (Yes the game went 20 minutes longer and you maybe there was a slim chance you could've won because you killed a lot of his expos after that- but I don't think there's anything to learn in the last 20 minutes when if you fix the first 30 (or 20 or 15) you simply aren't in the same situation in the back 20.) | ||
doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
So far as I can see from that game, it is a multitasking issue. You are having trouble getting everything you need to do done. In your first push out, he charges your army and gets his army wiped out, that is the time to continue pushing. Instead you moved your tanks back to meet up with the rest of your forces, and generally dawdled in the middle of the map with your army. This gives him time to rebuild an army, secure his expansions and generally leverage any economic advantage he might. For the most part, you are doing the right thing. Your sporadic scv building led you to have a much smaller army/economy than you should have had, so your timing was pretty far behind (though it wasn't a huge issue that game). Mostly what went wrong that game was in the lategame, you failed to keep up your macro, and you didn't exert enough pressure with your push. Throughout most of the lategame you were stacking 2k+ min and gas. You even had the factory count to be churning out a decent sized army, you just needed to keep those factories running and actually building your army. Imagine if those 2k+ min/gas were actually goliathes, those carriers would have been completely useless. Mostly, you simply need to practice more so you can get all the basics done better. If you find yourself stacking a couple thousand minerals, don't be afraid to add even more factories. We arn't all perfect about using production buildings like pros are, it's ok to go overboard on production facilities until you get better about using the ones you have. The other major thing is, you need to push much more forcefully, and much more quickly. Your army spent alot of time sitting in the middle of the map, or outside his base not doing anything. Idle time is time your army is spending not either defending your bases or pressuring theirs, and generally low pressure is exactly what the protoss wants from a terran in PvT. They want you to sit there while they take bases and build even more gateways to instantly recharge their army after they lose it. You need to reduce the amount of time your push spends sitting around doing nothing, and move more briskly to a point where you are either forcing them to fight it, or losing a base because they can't. So the part about carriers being the problem that will solve itself. As you improve your SCV pumping, general macro and push speed you will put them under alot of pressure. You will get a good gauge of how big their army is, if at any time you feel like their army is smaller than it should be, build a round of goliathes, either they are in the middle of a carrier switch or their macro isn't great and you will run them over despite goliathes not being as good value against ground as vultures are. Basically, once you get the basics right, your push will give you information on the state of their army/economy which will almost always tell you if they are in the middle of a carrier switch. Other than that, you seem to be on the right track, you need to pump scvs more consistently in the early game, pump army more consistently in the midgame and lategame, push quicker, have better map awareness with vultures roving the map, scan his bases to see tech/expos. Basically, you aren't doing anything particularly wrong about carriers, you just need tighten up your build and your push(which will require alot of practice, there's alot of stuff to do). By just getting more of the core parts of TvP done, it will effectively solve carriers. If carriers don't get you by suprise, they are honestly not very good on most maps. | ||
vOdToasT
Sweden2870 Posts
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DMarS
Mexico17 Posts
Carriers man unu And i don't know if i must be agressive at a certain point, or just to be around with voltures. And then, i did'nt scan his bases for any tech switch or something like that :l Damn it! xc | ||
seom
South Africa491 Posts
On April 16 2015 13:26 DMarS wrote: http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=56390 Carriers man unu And i don't know if i must be agressive at a certain point, or just to be around with voltures. And then, i did'nt scan his bases for any tech switch or something like that :l Damn it! xc If you let P get to a critical mass of carriers its very often gg. always scout / scan for possible carrier tech-switch. you seem to know what your problems are so just keep working on those things. for me TvP is the matchup where, as Terran, you are very heavily punished for even very small mistakes - there is no room for error. the match-up seems more forgiving for the P at lower levels. | ||
doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
This is why I didn't put as much emphasis on scanning for tech as opposed to applying pressure. Just 'reading' the P army takes a bit more feel for the game, and can get you alot of false positives at low levels (due to some P's having bad macro), but I feel like it's a much more reliable way to catch the carrier switch. | ||
jello_biafra
United Kingdom6631 Posts
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Piste
6137 Posts
On August 01 2014 17:35 tmdtmdtmd wrote: And you know why? because it takes 10 times more practices to play solid T than to play solid P, ain't nobody got time for that. Judgning from what I've seen, terrans have hard time figuring out the timings. I see many terrans with high apm, good micro and macro, but they don't really know what to do, when to attack or which position to secure. It does not take 10 times more to play solid terran, just requires some thinking. I agree that in low levels protoss is easier, since protoss army is much more faster than terrans, so punishing after finding weakness is easier. Also terran requires some micro and not to die to it's own mine splashes or tank fire. When there are not too many weak spots (=solid play), protoss nees to start thinking too. | ||
BeStFAN
483 Posts
On April 17 2015 22:02 Piste wrote: Judgning from what I've seen, terrans have hard time figuring out the timings. I see many terrans with high apm, good micro and macro, but they don't really know what to do, when to attack or which position to secure. It does not take 10 times more to play solid terran, just requires some thinking. I agree that in low levels protoss is easier, since protoss army is much more faster than terrans, so punishing after finding weakness is easier. Also terran requires some micro and not to die to it's own mine splashes or tank fire. When there are not too many weak spots (=solid play), protoss nees to start thinking too. games get scary when terran has a fourth command center and protoss develops far away bases :< | ||
Leon1das1
United States71 Posts
Edit: advice still welcome of course :D | ||
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