Replay: http://repdepot.net/download.php?type=rep&id=55748&name=Effortless_win vs Leon1.rep
How does TvP work
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Leon1das1
United States71 Posts
Replay: http://repdepot.net/download.php?type=rep&id=55748&name=Effortless_win vs Leon1.rep | ||
tmdtmdtmd
9 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
Also if you want to learn the fundamentals start off with openings like seige expand or fd. | ||
Leon1das1
United States71 Posts
On July 29 2014 08:39 tmdtmdtmd wrote: Just switch to protoss, in bw protoss is the easiest and strongest race, a zealot has more hp than a tank and cost much less, just make 3 control group and make them auto attack terran main it's easy win. T is hard because you need to micro everything. You would only lose to a Terran player if that guy plays 24/7 and is 10 times better than you, but even then just make sure you recall on factories, win 100% of the time. But if you wanna be cool and not play the cheap race protoss, then keep practicing, you may win 1 out of 10 games, but when you do, it's sweet. Where is the fun in an easy win? | ||
evilfatsh1t
Australia8497 Posts
On July 29 2014 08:39 tmdtmdtmd wrote: Just switch to protoss, in bw protoss is the easiest and strongest race, a zealot has more hp than a tank and cost much less, just make 3 control group and make them auto attack terran main it's easy win. T is hard because you need to micro everything. You would only lose to a Terran player if that guy plays 24/7 and is 10 times better than you, but even then just make sure you recall on factories, win 100% of the time. But if you wanna be cool and not play the cheap race protoss, then keep practicing, you may win 1 out of 10 games, but when you do, it's sweet. this post just made me dumber tvp is all about timings. its something a new player will have difficulty understanding, however if you play enough games you will start to notice specific points in the game when your army will look stronger than his. it all depends on the starting builds as well obviously, but there are timings in every opening for terran. for now just focus on making sure you never stop production. if you can constantly produce units and manage your upgrades together no other strategy or special build order is required. you will overwhelm your opponents through sheer macro all the way until C-/C | ||
puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
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ijustlost
United States45 Posts
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Chameleon
United States604 Posts
My real answer is watch the BratOK and Idra tvp games from the TSLs. That's what it's supposed to look like. | ||
Probemicro
3708 Posts
On July 29 2014 14:17 Chameleon wrote: Just sit behind your free invisible mini nukes (mines) and turrets and tanks and invincible buildings while you take a few bases (or not, up to you). Vultures are basically free so harass with those if you want. Max out while getting 3-3 and just turtle until protoss suicides his army into you (aka takes one hit from your tanks) and/or recalls on a bunch of mines and then 1a2a3a your army to his base for the win. Also, scan once every 5 minutes to see if that big scary carrier finished building. lol toss will just 1base proxy robo and kill u with shuttle/reaver. i've seen korean terrans like ssak straight out die to that more than once. or DTs. | ||
Chameleon
United States604 Posts
On July 29 2014 14:19 Probemicro wrote: lol toss will just 1base proxy robo and kill u with shuttle/reaver. i've seen korean terrans like ssak straight out die to that more than once. or DTs. Well yeah, but the reaver will only kill you the 5% of times the scarab actually stops and asks for directions before it runs out of gas and derps out on a mineral or something. and your scvs don't even die in one hit to dts : *****( so unfair | ||
Probemicro
3708 Posts
On July 29 2014 14:22 Chameleon wrote: Well yeah, but the reaver will only kill you the 5% of times the scarab actually stops and asks for directions before it runs out of gas and derps out on a mineral or something. and your scvs don't even die in one hit to dts : *****( so unfair well u dont aim at the scvs at first...u aim at the tanks. ifs its the typical siege expand terrans dont have much units out so reducing tank count really hurts him. dont forget u still have your gateway units, u can elevator them into the base. | ||
[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On July 29 2014 14:22 Chameleon wrote: Well yeah, but the reaver will only kill you the 5% of times the scarab actually stops and asks for directions before it runs out of gas and derps out on a mineral or something. LOLZ. Great quote. | ||
puppykiller
United States3125 Posts
This is a link to my youtube channel that contains some tournies that I casted in the last few months. You might be able to scrounge up some useful information in the commentaries since I mostly talk strategy and don't really shout cast. Hope it helps. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC9TUFmP30G7ZBaTWlTiSr6A/videos | ||
skzlime
Hungary462 Posts
okay, so... DON'T GET DISCOURAGED, THAT IS NOT THE INTENT. there are countless things you could have done better, you couldn't have made that rush work against my grandma, and there was also no way for you to ever take a 3rd in that game. side note: python is VERY protoss favored in tvp, but that wasn't the problem here at all. terrible mistakes: you don't even know the build order!!! learn it first!! i get my gas faster in a rax expand, man!!!!!! anyway, you want to 2fact, so you make a wall, okay, but it doesn't even work + Show Spoiler + i mean (DRAGOONS can walk in) 1. learn a build order (play LAN vs 1 AI, close slot during countdown, press "continue"). i would recommend standard FD for TvP (use liquipedia). after 10-20 tries you should get it right most of the time without thinking about it. (TvZ: rax expand -> 2rax academy -> 3 rax and tech, TvT: 1fact 1port (this one seems very technical at first but gives you the best knowledge imo)) 2. don't ladder. you won't improve well under that pressure. seek friends of similar skill level to play many games with, preferably people who also want to get better. you can also try out more things if you know your opponent will give re and help you with preset build orders etc. 3. establish a feel for things. when do i have to start building this if i want it to finish at the same time as that (eg. have ~100 gas when rax finishes, finish sci fac when +1 upgrade finishes)? how long is the build time for certain units? how many shots does it take for unit A to kill unit B? etc. 4. i don't think you should watch too many replays of good players yet. watch a few to get an idea of how the matchup should go, but you won't be able to do what they do so no point copying. just try to imitate in general. 5. understand causes. why do matchups play out the way they do? on a beginner level, things are set in stone a lot less. you can get away with doing a lot of bullshit, but you should still strive for optimal play. that way you will be much better off later. it's like learning to play the piano with that seemingly retarded hand position that's super uncomfortable for noobs, but one that is essential for higher level play. 6. come back in 3 months. then you can learn about positioning, micro, focus firing and the little tricks. until then just avoid those lurkers with your marines and let the tanks handle it. | ||
WGT-Baal
France3126 Posts
It was so frustrating that I used to race pick Z to play ZvT even in LANs...it's a matter of style. I ve also played some TvP and it is hard as hell too, but I m bad with T anyways... on topic: TvP is a position battle. Don't move all your tanks at once, slowly push towards the P while building turrets and planting mines everywhere. You do not need Gundam too early (before arbiters or carriers). | ||
L1ghtning
Sweden353 Posts
There are a few variants of Siege Expand, but the safest would probably be: Make sure to never be supply blocked Get barracks/gas at 11/12. Send scouting SCV at 13. When you pass your natural mineral line, center your screen around the mineral line, and push SHIFT+F3. Now when you push F3 your screen moves to that position. Build 1 marine immediately, but delay the 2nd one. Put the marines at the ramp, and put them on hold. (Just push H). Always make it a habit to put marines on hold position when they're standing still. Pull 2 scvs off gas (1 remaining) once you have 100 for your first Factory. After starting the factory start building more marines, up to 4, but make sure you're also making SCVs and supply. Once you have 4 marines, float the barracks to the ramp, so it floats over your marines. This makes your marines harder to target. Once you hit 300~ minerals, make sure you move back scv's to the gas, so you have 3. Then you build a CC up your ramp at the closest floating distance to the 2nd mineral lines. You can build a 2nd factory a bit before the CC is finished building. After building the 2nd factory get a engineering bay. If you are unable to scout and prove that he's going for either 12 nexus, 1 gate nexus or some 2 gate variant, then get the engineering bay directly after your 1st tank, this will delay your siege mode a bit, and will also delay your 2nd factory. When the CC is done. Do this in order: Order the CC to float, then you push F3, so you get centered on the destination mineral line, and then land on the new mineral line. Float your Barracks and land it a bit front of the CC, preferably next to the cliff. The purpose is to block the ground slightly in case that he gets aggressive. Then you go back to your main mineral line and select as many SCV's as you can, then deselect (shift+left click) until you get 7 SCV's, then push F3 and send them to the new mineral line. Next you siege down your 2 tanks. Sometimes if the protoss is being aggressive you need to move one of them down the ramp, but not necessarily. Then you move your marines down the ramp and position them between the destinations of the barracks and the CC. Put them on hold. Also around that time, you will need to queue up your 3rd tank. When, depends on how fast you are, and also on whether you made some early variations. Once the engineering bay is finished, put up 1 turret to cover each mineral line, and 1 turret inbetween, ideally it should prevent them from scouting your factory tech with his observers. Once you have 2 factories and 1 engineering bay, the next priority is 2 more factories, then an academy as soon as possibly, for scan. From the first 2 factories make only tanks, and delay the vulture upgrades until you have started your 3-4th factories. Make vultures from those factories. Once you get your first 2-4 vultures, move out. Put the vultures on 1. The 4 marines and 4~ scv's from your mineral line on 2. All tanks on 3. Put all reinforcements on 4, and send them into the battlefield continiously. You can rally them to his natural base too. This is especially recommended if your first attack is successful. And just before moving out float your barracks towards his base, to provide with range once you reach your destination, and eventually make it easier to shoot up his ramp. Try not to waste your vultures, by sending them in first, instead use them to flank and put up mines. If you have hit at a good timing (depends on his build), you should have enough units to push him back into his own base, but don't count on it, and be prepared to siege down before the first engagement. After you win the engagement you should be able to push through. Once you reach just outside his natural base, siege down and put up turrets and take down his natural. Use additional scv's to mass repair tanks (shift+R+left click) and to build supplies and potentially a bunker, to obstruct his units if he tries to stream them down. He should have a 3rd base, so send off a few units, reinforcements maybe to take that base down, but make sure you can hold your position. Get up to 6 factories once you get the money, and if it drags on longer, get your 3rd base, an armory and a starport and try to catch up on tech. It is not necessary to break up his main, because as long as he only have that base, and you have 2, he's screwed and you just need to wait him out. You can use the floating barracks to take potshots at him though. But be careful. This is not a perfect build. Depending on his timings, (mainly his 3rd base timings) you might want to push out on 2 or 6 factories, or anything inbetween, but if you can scout his timings you can adjust. 4 factory works decently most of the time though, so it's a good place to start. And although 3 base timing builds might be more solid, they are harder to pull off as a beginner and 2 base timings are less macro-intensive, which will make it easier for you to focus on and improve your unit control, which is crucial in this matchup. Once you get the macro and micro down, it becomes easier to transition to proper 3 base timing play. | ||
EndingLife
United States1558 Posts
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/FD_(vs._Protoss) though sometimes depending on spawn positions, some Ts like to go rax FE too. | ||
Leon1das1
United States71 Posts
On July 29 2014 20:29 L1ghtning wrote: For TvP I recommend starting out with Siege Expand into 4 factory push. There are a few variants of Siege Expand, but the safest would probably be: Make sure to never be supply blocked Get barracks/gas at 11/12. Send scouting SCV at 13. When you pass your natural mineral line, center your screen around the mineral line, and push SHIFT+F3. Now when you push F3 your screen moves to that position. Build 1 marine immediately, but delay the 2nd one. Put the marines at the ramp, and put them on hold. (Just push H). Always make it a habit to put marines on hold position when they're standing still. Pull 2 scvs off gas (1 remaining) once you have 100 for your first Factory. After starting the factory start building more marines, up to 4, but make sure you're also making SCVs and supply. Once you have 4 marines, float the barracks to the ramp, so it floats over your marines. This makes your marines harder to target. Once you hit 300~ minerals, make sure you move back scv's to the gas, so you have 3. Then you build a CC up your ramp at the closest floating distance to the 2nd mineral lines. You can build a 2nd factory a bit before the CC is finished building. After building the 2nd factory get a engineering bay. If you are unable to scout and prove that he's going for either 12 nexus, 1 gate nexus or some 2 gate variant, then get the engineering bay directly after your 1st tank, this will delay your siege mode a bit, and will also delay your 2nd factory. When the CC is done. Do this in order: Order the CC to float, then you push F3, so you get centered on the destination mineral line, and then land on the new mineral line. Float your Barracks and land it a bit front of the CC, preferably next to the cliff. The purpose is to block the ground slightly in case that he gets aggressive. Then you go back to your main mineral line and select as many SCV's as you can, then deselect (shift+left click) until you get 7 SCV's, then push F3 and send them to the new mineral line. Next you siege down your 2 tanks. Sometimes if the protoss is being aggressive you need to move one of them down the ramp, but not necessarily. Then you move your marines down the ramp and position them between the destinations of the barracks and the CC. Put them on hold. Also around that time, you will need to queue up your 3rd tank. When, depends on how fast you are, and also on whether you made some early variations. Once the engineering bay is finished, put up 1 turret to cover each mineral line, and 1 turret inbetween, ideally it should prevent them from scouting your factory tech with his observers. Once you have 2 factories and 1 engineering bay, the next priority is 2 more factories, then an academy as soon as possibly, for scan. From the first 2 factories make only tanks, and delay the vulture upgrades until you have started your 3-4th factories. Make vultures from those factories. Once you get your first 2-4 vultures, move out. Put the vultures on 1. The 4 marines and 4~ scv's from your mineral line on 2. All tanks on 3. Put all reinforcements on 4, and send them into the battlefield continiously. You can rally them to his natural base too. This is especially recommended if your first attack is successful. And just before moving out float your barracks towards his base, to provide with range once you reach your destination, and eventually make it easier to shoot up his ramp. Try not to waste your vultures, by sending them in first, instead use them to flank and put up mines. If you have hit at a good timing (depends on his build), you should have enough units to push him back into his own base, but don't count on it, and be prepared to siege down before the first engagement. After you win the engagement you should be able to push through. Once you reach just outside his natural base, siege down and put up turrets and take down his natural. Use additional scv's to mass repair tanks (shift+R+left click) and to build supplies and potentially a bunker, to obstruct his units if he tries to stream them down. He should have a 3rd base, so send off a few units, reinforcements maybe to take that base down, but make sure you can hold your position. Get up to 6 factories once you get the money, and if it drags on longer, get your 3rd base, an armory and a starport and try to catch up on tech. It is not necessary to break up his main, because as long as he only have that base, and you have 2, he's screwed and you just need to wait him out. You can use the floating barracks to take potshots at him though. But be careful. This is not a perfect build. Depending on his timings, (mainly his 3rd base timings) you might want to push out on 2 or 6 factories, or anything inbetween, but if you can scout his timings you can adjust. 4 factory works decently most of the time though, so it's a good place to start. And although 3 base timing builds might be more solid, they are harder to pull off as a beginner and 2 base timings are less macro-intensive, which will make it easier for you to focus on and improve your unit control, which is crucial in this matchup. Once you get the macro and micro down, it becomes easier to transition to proper 3 base timing play. So first off thank you. A couple questions though. In terms of the timings, how do I know which one works where and when I do, what do I base it off of; supply or game time.Also is there a way to more accurately place Vulture mines, they seem to go where ever vulture gets clustered to when you tell them to place mines. | ||
amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
So, what you need to do is do a bunch of magic boxing and grab 2-4 vultures at a time from that group and mine a spot, then follow suit with the rest. It's micro intensive, but terran is quite apm heavy to play right to begin with... as for general timings and strats, that only comes with practice, replay analysis, and watching the pros play. | ||
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