On November 29 2015 22:24 Bakuryu wrote: you are not supposed to randomly wander ht into sieged tanks. you use shuttle with hts, so you can easily get them into position in a big fight, or just attack with big army and storm here and there, he cant kill everything.
considering leaving ht behind for defence, terran hardly will attack with ALL units (in lategame), just because you could easily harass with speed shuttle with ht, recall, clearing mines with goons or just counter attacking. why does terran need to keep a minimal defence up? because the game will not be decided by that 1 single push, because protoss is supposed to have bases all over the place. so leaving like 10 supply behind at bases in ht shouldnt be a problem.
Alright so I gotta ask the obvious. What are your hotkeys for your army? with special control groups like shuttles with zealots/ht and maybe one just for arbiters (still unsure on how I wanna control my arbiters...since I need them for cloaking my army but also I need them independently moving for when I use stasis and recall) it all seems very easy to mix up. Just ask me I'm pretty good at totally fucking up my hotkeys once I start losing units : P
A good hotkey setup is:
1 Goons + 1obs, 2 Goons +1obs, 3 early:shuttle / later zeals, 4 zeals, 5 hts/arbs/shuttle/rest of your army, 6 - 0 gateways or nexi.
you can also not hotkey your arbs and movecommand em individually onto a unit so that they follow different groups. This prevents stuff like 5 arbs getting hit by one emp.
During 2011/12 season, quite a few of the Protoss players were choosing to pause on 5 base, deliberately not taking a 6th base, and banking a few thousand on purpose. And it was the most consistently successful style. (ofcourse the maps matters).
Yeah this is all a lot to taken in. I think I've read some of this over like 5 times and it's still gonna take some time to sink in. Really appreciate everyone going out of there way to try and point out what I should be doing in such awesome detail. I'll post again probably with a new video noting specific changes that were made because of the advice here : ) wish me luck and thanks again
In your game OP, you went nexus first with no zealots. You scouted 1 late marine and a factory. It was cross spawn. Terran could have attacked you with 1 vult and 6 scv when your probe died. Would you have been ok? Yeah probably. But I just want to make sure you know that is the threat. (I don’t like nexus first builds. Goon openings are better.) Scout with your observer to see what terran is doing! We want to know if factories or 3rd cc most critically. If turrets are up then fine you wont be able to see, but go near the edge of the main you might see a cc. Take the 12 o clock as your 3rd with these spawns. You start a pylon wall at your nat but you only make one. If you add to it and end up with 3 then you can defend better vs vult attacks and its crucial. Most pros make 4 gate and citadel before forge at the minimum (it depends on what terran is doing, scouted by your observer). (should mention forge before citadel was becoming more popular, and sometimes they just plant both at exactly the same time eg Bisu vs Last on Neo Jade after only 3 gates). Your 2nd forge is early (if wanting to copy pro builds). Use goons to defend your 3rd not cannons to begin with. Leave 1 goon at the 3rd inside the pylon walls. Alternatively, pylon wall the outside ramp vult tight, but dont seal the inside ramp. Wall it with pylons still, but leave a gap for goons to get in. Block that gap with units though, and if you do this, keep other goons near to react quickly vs an attempted vult runby or drop. (see Dear vs firebathero on Jade for excellent example of vult defense unit management at the 11 minute mark) http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/104902_Dear_vs_firebathero/vod You make 3 zealots which is cool if you make a shuttle to put them in too. You make more zealots but get more goons for now. Gateway placement! You made a ring which will trap half your units! Alright you kill one off, good. But ideally, with gateway placement you want to have this kind of pre planned, it can only help. OK so your maxed and terran is pushing. You have only 1 arb. Luckily he doesn’t come any further for now and you make 2 more. You are using 2 stars which is fine. Most pros were using only 1 star in 2012. You make a new gateway at your new main which will block units off again. Hotkeys: separate zealots and goons. A nice setup is two squads of 11 goons 1 observer. A nice total army composition is: 22 goons, 30 zealots, 3 arbiters, 4 ht in a shuttle, 6 observers.
We are 16.18 and you are in a great position. You will win this game. Just get your army hotkeyed up nicely and move all your units to the south bridge area. So that you are covering your 4th base. Terran should be about to push there. When he does, charge in and smash his army. Get the zealots up in his tanks and cast stasis on tanks. You will kill some of his army, and the next wave you will crush it completely.
Terran is faffing around and you are up to 8000 minerals, 3000 gas. This is great. Add 4 more gates in your main and sit tight. I would send a probe to 12 o clock now and threaten to start a 6th base. Alright here he comes. He chose to go north which is less expected but fine. You react and retreat nicely. Get your army and go to the halfway line horizontally near your 3rd base, so that when he reaches your natural bridge you will smash into him there. Ah no 19.00 you don’t do this, you decide to poke the terran natural bridge area. No need, and a bit risky but if you don’t lose too much its ok. You lose quite a lot but its ok, you are fine. Remax and prepare to attack the main terran push. You are fine on 5 base. We are at 19.23 in the vod. If he doesn’t come soon properly, I would swing to the north and smash into his line there. Then I would send a probe and make a pylon and nexus in the empty main. OK he just poked the 12 o clock and is coming to Protoss natural bridge. This is the time to attack. You put your army in pretty good positions. Sort your hotkeys out, we want full squads of units for this critical engagement. At 20.15 minute mark in the vod, that’s when you should be charging. We see you try to get a stasis off for a while, then by 20.52 you cleaned up a handful of terran units. He has more near the top that are cutting you off from the 12 o clock. You should clean them out too. Ah you haven’t seen them, as you send a probe to make 6th nexus but it dies. Hopefully will spot that soon and take care of it. Here comes terran at the south this time at 21.30. Lets see how this attack goes. You have 11000/6000 in the bank. Terran doesn’t siege and you conga line zealots into them. You lose your zealots. Its not ‘ideal’ hehe. Wait for him to siege if you are gunna go with just the zealots on their own. But this army he is attacking with is tiny though. Reinforcements should hopefully hold for you. There is another 7 minutes on the vod, and terran isn’t looking to take a 4th yet still it seems. If you lose this game from here I expect its by losing small armies piecemeal. Wait what! You quit? Why did you gg? You were doing alright. Just make reinforcements and kill that army. Then kill the units guarding the 12 o clock and expand there. Then take the fight to his territory. In PvT you don’t kill the terran army in one go. You kill some units in the first attack when it is at full power. Then a few more in the second wave. Then finish it off with the 3rd wave. Alright I admit that second attack didnt go great and you probably would have lost your 4th nexus. But you still could have won. You can deal with that no problem, you are a much better player than me, just send units to attack as one cohesive army and it will melt. (note some of the details are specific to goon openings not for nexus first builds)
On November 30 2015 09:08 vOdToasT wrote: If you are going to be fighting max vs max, you need lots of arbiters and high templars, preferably in shuttles. Or carriers and high templars. One of those two.
Send in all arbiters from different directions and clone them like you're using spawn broodling. Then focus on your storm drops while your arbiters are already set up. Make sure to unload your templars when the siege tanks have already fired and are on cool down. After that, just spam as many storms as you can.
By lots of arbiters, I mean at least 5. And by templars, I mean around 8 in shuttles, and possibly more on the ground.
If you have the money, go for the ultimate army. Don't settle for a cheap army unless you have to.
Who the hell carries 2 shuttles full of HTs and 5 arbiters with energy? Srsly that tip doesn't make any sense. Yeah it's not a bad idea but in 99% of the situations this is not possible and is also very hard to pull off. The norm should be if the T player is just letting you do w/e you want just expand everywhere and make a lot of gates. If he is maxed as well and not doing anything he's just gonna run out of money before you. Use recall too. Ofc if your army is getting absolutely destroyed in an engage then your problem is probably army control and adding 2 shuttles won't help if u can't control zealots and goons.
Jangbi? Stork?
I do it and I'm better than you are :D I don't do it as well as other better P users, of course, but still.
I said "If you are fighting max vs max". And in lots of situations, the Terran will just sit on 3 bases and prepare a doom push. That's when you are able to do this. It's not "Impossible in 99% of situations". If you're on a map like Fighting Spirit, it's actually very common.
You mention adding gateways. I never said that you shouldn't do that, too. But if you are floating on 10000 / 5000 and are maxed, there is no reason not to add more arbiters and templars. Ramming only zealots and dragoons in to a maxed Terran army doesn't work. You need the support units.
Hi, I just watched your video and I wanted to give you some advice on some basic things you need to work on.
I counted and you have 18 gateways total at the end of the game. That's way too few a number of gateways with that huge bank. You need to optimize your building placement so you can allow yourself to add on gateways easily. The first thing protoss starts to do after getting maxed out is by spending their money on more gateways, tons of gateways.
You have the apm to macro/micro, apm is not the problem, and almost never is unless you have a severe physical disability. As your brain starts to realize faster that you have to start making more gateways and macroing more, getting that one arbiter or researching whatever upgrade, your physical attentiveness and alertness will increase. In realizing in a single moment that you have to do these multiple things all at once, you will naturally start playing faster, so naturally the apm will follow if you don't already have good enough apm as you're thinking of what you have to do in a faster mental state. With that in mind, stronger macro isn't a dream! :D
The last but most important thing I want to point out is your mentality. You have a self defeatist attitude that is not conducive to improvement. Towards the end of the video you said "The whole matchup is completely helpless" which is a vast oversimplification of what should be a thorough analysis and self reflection. You need to look at your play from a more objective point of view and when you have that bias that the matchup is helpless you break away from improving. I want to point you to a good link to help you get on the right road if you care enough.
Link 1: It has the word improve in the name. Focus on this link more ,it's directly relevant to improving. I made a really cool worksheet that goes along with it if you're interested :p . If you haven't already watched Day9's podcast on a good mindset to improve, you're missing out and you'll think about the game in a different way than you normally would that will go a long way compared to advice you can get on a forum, a friend, starcraft expert, or from reading some liquipedia articles
- Lots of gateways in your main - Lots of gateways in your second main
Things I didn't like / General advice:
- You didn't mine gas from your third for a very long time. - Late, late, late arbiter tech. If you have arbiters, you can recall every time the terran moves out. If they're a turret whore, you can still recall. - If you're ahead and the terran is inside of their natural, on this particular map, the bridge at their entrance funnels all their stuff into a very small area, which means you can create an arc of units outside. You may say "Okay, I did that." but the difference I would say is that you should attack the terran army while it is in transit, that is, while the tanks are unsieged and moving and there are no mines laid. The terran crossing the bridge into the wide open is a great time to attack their army. - You need even more gateways / bases. Each base can support a maximum of 4 gateways, so five bases will allow 20 minimum. However, once you hit the psi cap, you'll need even more because once you engage the terran, you'll need to quickly regenerate your army. If you can continuously pump out new armies to throw at them, they will run out of money, even if you trade armies. - You can get more than five bases once you're maxed out, so that if, say, your natural dies, you can send the probes to a different base that you can defend.
On November 30 2015 09:08 vOdToasT wrote: If you are going to be fighting max vs max, you need lots of arbiters and high templars, preferably in shuttles. Or carriers and high templars. One of those two.
Send in all arbiters from different directions and clone them like you're using spawn broodling. Then focus on your storm drops while your arbiters are already set up. Make sure to unload your templars when the siege tanks have already fired and are on cool down. After that, just spam as many storms as you can.
By lots of arbiters, I mean at least 5. And by templars, I mean around 8 in shuttles, and possibly more on the ground.
If you have the money, go for the ultimate army. Don't settle for a cheap army unless you have to.
Who the hell carries 2 shuttles full of HTs and 5 arbiters with energy? Srsly that tip doesn't make any sense. Yeah it's not a bad idea but in 99% of the situations this is not possible and is also very hard to pull off. The norm should be if the T player is just letting you do w/e you want just expand everywhere and make a lot of gates. If he is maxed as well and not doing anything he's just gonna run out of money before you. Use recall too. Ofc if your army is getting absolutely destroyed in an engage then your problem is probably army control and adding 2 shuttles won't help if u can't control zealots and goons.
Jangbi? Stork?
I do it and I'm better than you are :D I don't do it as well as other better P users, of course, but still.
I said "If you are fighting max vs max". And in lots of situations, the Terran will just sit on 3 bases and prepare a doom push. That's when you are able to do this. It's not "Impossible in 99% of situations". If you're on a map like Fighting Spirit, it's actually very common.
You mention adding gateways. I never said that you shouldn't do that, too. But if you are floating on 10000 / 5000 and are maxed, there is no reason not to add more arbiters and templars. Ramming only zealots and dragoons in to a maxed Terran army doesn't work. You need the support units.
Not sure where you got that you're better than me, but regardless I don't play P so we can always assume if I switched to that race I'd get at least 5 ranks higher in a week.
Now, to discuss the merit of your answer: if you think you're helping a guy that doesn't even know how to do the basic stuff on the matchup by suggesting he should try to control 5 arbiters and 2 shuttles your idea of helping needs a little tweak. I'm sincerely interested in seeing the games you mention because I've watched a shitload of pro BW and I've never seen someone with so many arbiters and shuttles at any 1 point.
Then how should he defeat the terran ball? By suiciding more zealots and dragoons in to it? This is StarCraft. It's not easy.
Ok so I watched both games.
First one: JangBi has 1 shuttle full of HTs and 2 extra HTs on foot, along with a single arbiter. He defeats Flash by what you described as "suiciding more zealots into it". At 32:50 the obs even shows how many zealots are coming in per wave. Very nice macro.
Second: Othello has a lot of very abusable cliffs by tanks and storms. Knowing that JangBi goes for reaver play earlier and gets shuttle speed. After some shenanigans they engage and it really is one of the best engages I've seen by a toss. The storms wreck NaDa. Still, he only has 1 arbiter for a single stasis.
If the best pros are able to beat the best pros by using 1 shuttle and 1 arbiter why would you suggest to some iccup noob (no offense to OP intended) that he should get 2 and 5 arbiters? Actually now that I think about having 5 arbiters with your main army is objectively bad because you're not gonna have use for that many stasis and the supply cost would be best used somewhere else. It's ok to have 5 arbiters on the field but they should be positioned in ways to perform recalls when the T army is out of position, with 2-3 in the main army.
Because in his game, he had insane amounts of money. That doesn't happen often at high level, but if it does, and you are just waiting for one big push, you should have the best army possible against that push.
Jangbi defended the push with good storms and stasis fields in the first game, and with really good storms in the second game. "Make more gateways" on its own isn't going to help the original poster. He needs to kill more stuff with each wave, and the way to do that is with more arbiters and more templars.
He should definitely learn to use 2 shuttles with templars at the same time.
On December 02 2015 11:15 vOdToasT wrote: Because in his game, he had insane amounts of money. That doesn't happen often at high level, but if it does, and you are just waiting for one big push, you should have the best army possible against that push.
Jangbi defended the push with good storms and stasis fields in the first game, and with really good storms in the second game. "Make more gateways" on its own isn't going to help the original poster. He needs to kill more stuff with each wave, and the way to do that is with more arbiters and more templars.
He should definitely learn to use 2 shuttles with templars at the same time.
So you're saying that you have no pro examples and it's pure speculation? Cause you strongly claimed to know pros that do this in a previous post... Hard to discuss like that man :[
You don't need to kill more stuff with each wave. The terran will always have less factories than you have gateways just by the fact that factories cost gas, which means if you trade equally or even a little worse you'll still come out on top. Not to mention the fact that terran army is really bad in small numbers so the more you kill the better trades you're going to make.
Yes. Once you stop the first push, you can use mostly zealots and dragoons with only a few support units, because you are ahead on psi. But that first push with 36 tanks is killer. You're going to needs lot of arbiters or lots of templars, or both. You need to hurt the Terran so that you can remax and be ahead, and then start whittling him down
But I admit that I over emphasized how many are needed. Often, the Terran will not have 36 tanks, but rather 24. So maybe just a few arbiters are enough. Or lots of arbiters but only 4 templars.
Lots of mediocre protoss players get stuck at C because they can't deal with maxed Terran, since they rely on zealots dragoons and mediocre arbiter usage only. That's why I want to make him understand how important it is to get tons of damage off with templar and arbiters for the first push.
On December 03 2015 11:30 vOdToasT wrote: Yes. Once you stop the first push, you can use mostly zealots and dragoons with only a few support units, because you are ahead on psi. But that first push with 36 tanks is killer. You're going to needs lot of arbiters or lots of templars, or both. You need to hurt the Terran so that you can remax and be ahead, and then start whittling him down
But I admit that I over emphasized how many are needed. Often, the Terran will not have 36 tanks, but rather 24. So maybe just a few arbiters are enough. Or lots of arbiters but only 4 templars.
Lots of mediocre protoss players get stuck at C because they can't deal with maxed Terran, since they rely on zealots dragoons and mediocre arbiter usage only. That's why I want to make him understand how important it is to get tons of damage off with templar and arbiters for the first push.