(H) ZvP again? - Page 2
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L_Master
United States7946 Posts
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AcMilan91
105 Posts
On September 17 2017 03:57 L_Master wrote: Okay, so things I am seeing: -Your opponent plays gate expo, it's good you're scouting with OL, but you want to see with drone what he is doing. In case of gate expo you need to make 8 lings as soon as pool finishes, your pool has been done for a bit and no lings (or drones have been made despite zlot at your base. These zlots are probably going to hurt -Well, turns out your drilling was pretty good and the other guy got scared, so it didn't turn out bad. A better protoss would have made your life hell. -Gas is done for a LONG time before you start mining. The main point of 2 hatch -> gas -> third hatch is to get those scourge out for first sair. 20s delay totally nullifies this. -He's been saving zlots and moves out a wierd time, you're sorta ready with a sunken but it would be better if it was done. Unfortunately, your ling speed is not quite done since you were slow to mine case. Typical response here would be to keep a general tab on his zlot count and then spam a round of lings from your hatches if he moves out - You handle it fairly well, and then he gets a bit scared. Ideally that sunken would have been faster or you would have just made more lings but it turned out okay. -Spore colony in your main?! WTF.... You even saw with OL the timing of his stargate and that he wasn't making sairs, you don't even need a spore at your natural, you basically never need a spore in your main. There aren't overlords there. -Your lair finishes and you don't make a spire. Instead you make more hatches. This is a BIG deal. DON'T do this. The entire purpose of going for the quicker gas is to get that spire up. It takes you over 1:30 to make the spire. Luckily this toss wasn't making sairs but that's disaster in a more normal game. -You haven't made any major mistakes, but the small things here and there add up. You're now at 8:00 just barely reaching full saturation and ready to make hydra. That's a solid minute or more behind. Better players would be attacking you with zealot templar right now and you don't have a single hydra out. -10:30 or so is a good talking point. You went for an attack on protoss. He had too much so you turned tail and ran. However, despite having a good bit of defense you keep spamming out hydra. Protoss already repelled your attack and is taking a third. More hydra means less drones means an even weaker economy. You missed your window to apply pressure with hydra because your build wasn't executed well enough, just making more hydra will only put you further behind. You should be droning up and thinking about how you can get back in the long game. You can't overrun a 3 base toss with hydra off 6 hatch. -Well...this toss is an idiot and just stands there with his army at his natural, doesn't use his reavers, and let's you kill his third. That was a travesty that shouldn't have happened, but now this game is actually a pretty good position for you. -14:00 - No reason to try and bust. You're good and ahead. Set a contain with lurkers as you take more bases is great, but you're not at the point of invincibility where you can throw stuff at him and he'll automatically die. -3.5k minerals and gas. Ouch. Ouch. Ouch. You could have 50+ more supply than you do now. You really don't want this to happen to you. If it does, spam done another 4 or 5 hatcheries. Anything to spend that money. Don't sit on a 3k bank. -Drones. You're still ahead but you've just been spamming army. Zerg is all about sneaking in drones any moment you can. Especially with his harass you barely have a two base economy. You could easily have 60 drones by now, instead you have like 25. -Your gas mining is really whacky. You are mining one gas with three drones, one with a single drone, and another with two... -Your upgrading is good, keep doing that well! -18:00 STOP TRYING TO KILL PROTOSS! Contain him, make a shit ton of drones, defend his harass, flood him with units from 10+ hatcheries. -18:00 You know protoss is harassing some. But you keep sending all of your units to his front. Why? It's one thing if you're a little unprepared for harass one, but he is flying around with reavers. Keep some units at home so his harass isn't able to be lethal. - Please don't tell me your going to let protoss take 12' for free... - You kinda realize it, but not till it's all set up and he can easily defend. Gotta watch those expos. - You're playing super "one track" First you were trying to kill protoss obsessively at his nat and never stopped making hydra. Now you're blindly attack his third. He has all his army there. Take a poke somewhere his army isn't, like his nat. Make him run around till you find a weak spot. You're not going to break a highground expo where protoss has his entire army with reaver and templar up there. -The big attack with the ultras. It doesn't work very well for you because you don't use swarm, there are no lings, protoss has a wall so all off his dragoons are attacking while only 1 of your ultras is, all your ultras clump up hard in the tight choke so he can rain down storm after storm on them. You lost a control group of ultra to like 6 templar and 8 goons. That's rough. Add lings, use swarm, pick better ways of attacking. - You're finally getting a good attack going with the reinforcements after the ultra...but unfortunatley you've mined out all your bases except one and just don't have enough economy to back it up. Toss can reinforce faster. Main thing there is that is absolutely a game you should have won. It should have gone better for you initially with your first attack, but you're build was just a little slow and inefficient. You almost loss there, but toss got stupid and gave away his third. You know have a big lead but you threw it away in three majors ways: 1) Kept spamming nothing but army instead of making some more drones 2) Failure to leave anything at home to deal with a consistent harassing protoss 3) Kept suiciding into a turtling protoss. You either need to be vigilante and notice expos before they get up, or just recognize your ahead and spam drones + expansions yourself. If toss is turtling it's because he knows he can't beat you and needs to defend bases. This is your cue that toss isn't going to do anything, so make a shitload of drones and 3 more bases. Then you have unstoppable economy and just overrun him. those some hell of a good advices and tips, on every end of my games i see i have lower minerals than my opponents,i need to focus more on drones when i am safe just pump drones and send those on minerals | ||
-Frog-
United States514 Posts
On September 16 2017 16:51 ajmbek wrote: I disagree with this scauting idea to keep the overlord at the wall of the natural. All you can see there with the ovi can be seen by 2 zerglings! The ovi must be in the main or where is the tech. You need to know it it is a +1 speedlot way before scourge time. Keep in mind that for the majority of the game it is the zerg that decides what to do and protoss have to react. And at any time you can send a speedovi to see what is caming next or to check the army composition of protoss. Also have 1 zergling at evry P possibile expansion you keep the ovie outside the natural to watch for zealots, you send the ovie in before corsairs come out. you won't be able to get much useful information before that. watch any fpvod http://korhal.info.pl/#/korhal | ||
AcMilan91
105 Posts
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
Jaedong made a guide for newer players of what to do in ZvT and ZvP, general ideas. There's a lot of stuff you're wondering about that you can learn here: Jaedong Lesson. Make sure to turn on subtitles unless you understand Korean. | ||
AcMilan91
105 Posts
On September 22 2017 06:22 Dromar wrote: Hey, can't watch the replays right now, but just wanted to chime in with something that might help quite a bit. Jaedong made a guide for newer players of what to do in ZvT and ZvP, general ideas. There's a lot of stuff you're wondering about that you can learn here: Jaedong Lesson. Make sure to turn on subtitles unless you understand Korean. Yes, i watched them all i am opsessed with zerg vods | ||
AcMilan91
105 Posts
here again..i really dont understand,always same lose 50 gateaways and mass units and i am done, wtf .. i really find more easier to fight against terran than prottos, i dont have a clue what is my mission against protoss...dont attack him, def him, mass units...toss army is just fucking stronger,i am so pissed off | ||
Bakuryu
Germany1065 Posts
unfortunately the extra lings vs the cannon rush werent needed the ling runby was a simple waste, it is pointless to do at your level. you defended his 1st attack with 2 sunkens and 5 hatch hydras, at that point you are far behind. you stay on 5 hatches for very long time, make a late muta switch. the muta control is not the best. he just simply outmacros you. your mission against protoss as a "macro oriented" zerg player is to defend against his attacks in the most efficient way in order to get the most drones out as possible, until you have too much stuff and can outmacro him. yes there are various timing pressure builds which work too. but you are nowhere near to use them. if you want to practice you have to really focus on macro. macro macro macro that is sooooo important. you only have a specific amount of time which you have to split between macro and micro. and in general, the time you have for micro is the time AFTER you did macro. you need to practice on finishing your macro with less time needed. this will give you more time to micro/scout/multitask you tried to runby lings into his base, if you get some lings into his base, you will be behind. even if you can manage to teleport all your lings into his base, you will still be behind. the fact that you are devoting precious macro time in order to harass his base will disrupt your macro more than it will the enemies macro, effectively hurting yourself. for harass to be effective at all, you need that good macro basis. your muta switch was similar, apart from "a-moving" them, you had no time to use them effectively at all, because you were so busy with macro. the mutas just randomly died to goons and were a complete waste of minerals/gas, if would have been more effective to just make hydra/lurker and focus on macro. please stop forcing yourself to play a micro heavy macro game and focus on good macro first. play a macro oriented build order as good as possible, if you get lost and dont know how to keep on playing, 1 hatch will make drones and all the other hatches make units. | ||
AcMilan91
105 Posts
On September 23 2017 08:34 Bakuryu wrote: your spire is nearly 2 minutes late, invalidating your entire build. unfortunately the extra lings vs the cannon rush werent needed the ling runby was a simple waste, it is pointless to do at your level. you defended his 1st attack with 2 sunkens and 5 hatch hydras, at that point you are far behind. you stay on 5 hatches for very long time, make a late muta switch. the muta control is not the best. he just simply outmacros you. your mission against protoss as a "macro oriented" zerg player is to defend against his attacks in the most efficient way in order to get the most drones out as possible, until you have too much stuff and can outmacro him. yes there are various timing pressure builds which work too. but you are nowhere near to use them. if you want to practice you have to really focus on macro. macro macro macro that is sooooo important. you only have a specific amount of time which you have to split between macro and micro. and in general, the time you have for micro is the time AFTER you did macro. you need to practice on finishing your macro with less time needed. this will give you more time to micro/scout/multitask you tried to runby lings into his base, if you get some lings into his base, you will be behind. even if you can manage to teleport all your lings into his base, you will still be behind. the fact that you are devoting precious macro time in order to harass his base will disrupt your macro more than it will the enemies macro, effectively hurting yourself. for harass to be effective at all, you need that good macro basis. your muta switch was similar, apart from "a-moving" them, you had no time to use them effectively at all, because you were so busy with macro. the mutas just randomly died to goons and were a complete waste of minerals/gas, if would have been more effective to just make hydra/lurker and focus on macro. please stop forcing yourself to play a micro heavy macro game and focus on good macro first. play a macro oriented build order as good as possible, if you get lost and dont know how to keep on playing, 1 hatch will make drones and all the other hatches make units. Hmm thanks, i dont know what should i attack with mutas in ZvP, i need to focus on macro ok, i still need mechanincs i am only 4 weeks in brood war so, watching alot of vods etc. | ||
ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
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AcMilan91
105 Posts
On September 24 2017 20:50 ProMeTheus112 wrote: I would say, there is room for different playstyles, if you like to micro a lot you can do it but you must make sure that you just get your macro done fast and right at least and spend the rest of time microing or smtg. Micro can bring you a lot, value and pressure to your opponent, information, etc, but it generally won't bring you as much value as macroing well and also if you already macro well, then you will have more space to micro because you have stronger stuff relative to opponent => more freedom. Yeah, i get it | ||
AcMilan91
105 Posts
http://bwreplays.com/936af | ||
AcMilan91
105 Posts
one base prottos,i went 3 hatch hydra but somehow he beat me 2 times in row? how?!?!!? please this is so frustrating | ||
AcMilan91
105 Posts
and again same time 5 hatch hydra vs fucking FE and always the same 500 goon 500 zealots and gg why?!!?!?!?! why?! | ||
craz3d
Bulgaria856 Posts
On October 01 2017 04:47 AcMilan91 wrote: what is wrong with this game...he went some strange strategy and i destroyed him with 3 hatch muta but somehow mass goons and fucking gg? http://bwreplays.com/936af It was a 2 gateway rush into expand. Nothing strange about that. I don't main zerg, but here are some errors that stuck out to me: -Lack of scouting. Why isn't there an overlord above his natural or even in his base to see what's going on? You're constantly in the dark until 9 minutes in. -Lack of saturation at natural. Transfer two or three drones over. Better yet, make some more drones, although there was no way to know whether you were free to do so because you had no information about his whereabouts. -Lack of upgrades. -Your decision making with mutas is not optimal. There were times when you ran away from 4-5 dragoons when you had 7-8 mutas. Eventually those dragoons snowballed into a huge force together with storm support. -You try to force an engagement with your lurkers instead of containing him, which causes you to lose all your lurkers at 13:15. -Your macro starts to steadily suffer as the game goes on and you do more harass. -You are constantly aggressive, which is a good thing in and of itself, but when you notice that your attacks start to do almost no damage, it's time to switch gears. Set up a contain, or play more defensive with the lurkers while sniping observers with mutas and scourge. Take another expansion and tech to hive in order to get defilers and adrenaline glands for your lings, which are the proper counter to mass dragoon play. | ||
AcMilan91
105 Posts
On October 09 2017 00:29 craz3d wrote: It was a 2 gateway rush into expand. Nothing strange about that. I don't main zerg, but here are some errors that stuck out to me: -Lack of scouting. Why isn't there an overlord above his natural or even in his base to see what's going on? You're constantly in the dark until 9 minutes in. -Lack of saturation at natural. Transfer two or three drones over. Better yet, make some more drones, although there was no way to know whether you were free to do so because you had no information about his whereabouts. -Lack of upgrades. -Your decision making with mutas is not optimal. There were times when you ran away from 4-5 dragoons when you had 7-8 mutas. Eventually those dragoons snowballed into a huge force together with storm support. -You try to force an engagement with your lurkers instead of containing him, which causes you to lose all your lurkers at 13:15. -Your macro starts to steadily suffer as the game goes on and you do more harass. -You are constantly aggressive, which is a good thing in and of itself, but when you notice that your attacks start to do almost no damage, it's time to switch gears. Set up a contain, or play more defensive with the lurkers while sniping observers with mutas and scourge. Take another expansion and tech to hive in order to get defilers and adrenaline glands for your lings, which are the proper counter to mass dragoon play. Yeah, i nees more scouting and patience against protoss | ||
ortseam
996 Posts
On October 08 2017 02:03 AcMilan91 wrote: http://bwreplays.com/mmfhr and again same time 5 hatch hydra vs fucking FE and always the same 500 goon 500 zealots and gg why?!!?!?!?! why?! You didn't have enough drones. You only have around 25 when you started making units, and never really droned up again. 25 drones is a 2 base zerg economy , so you were playing 2 base zerg vs 3 base toss for the most part. You need around 35-40 drones (6 hatcheries) for 3 base economy and 60 drones (8-9 hatcheries) for 4 bases. 4 is the minimum you needed in this game. | ||
Glassface
2 Posts
Your issue in every one of those games primarily lies with : Your basic macro skills need work. You need to scout, you have OL there is no excuse. You need to learn not only your build orders through mid game but some standard ones of your opponents races as well. I strongly advise you take harder looks into your replays if you're still confused. Watch your supply, watch your macro, watch your opponent. If you truly feel your basic build order is good, focus on the mid-game where it seems you start to fall apart most frequently. We can't help you if you don't take the basic steps to help yourself. Provide more insight to your own games before you ask about deeper strategy questions. GL HF | ||
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