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@Letherebelight
First, I don't think you are korean since your english is too good for a korean starcraft player. Second, why did you register in TL just to defend Neagle ? You obviously follow TL for a while now since you read Draw's post here in this thread. I am very curious, are you a friend of Neagle ? What is your iccup ID ?
PS Oh i saw you're registered Thursday, 31st of January 2013 in your profile. Even more curious that these are your first posts :D!
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hmh defiler tours is epic ;D
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On June 12 2013 01:40 Letherebelight wrote: it's just you guys don't have game sense. That's why you always lose to amateur korean players. Korean class is different. Imagine. How can level of korean be same with you guys? korean train with each other, and you just play on iccup where half of users are under the level of 10 years old of korean child
actually no, he did goon scout in both and had different reactions to both. I beat neagle pvp last season, and if you check his ladder history ON iccup he is not that good http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/Neagle.html
So how does a not very good player win defiler tour? Also, if you watch more of his games you will see patterns of blind counters. He won sziky once but that is one event, with a very unusual build.
I also find it funny that you mention we're losing to korean amateurs, most of them have been caught hacking. Cindy beat me 2-1 he was aka Sunday and banned from iccup. I wonder if he can win without hack? I bet not.
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i don't think neagle mh user, probably just lucky day. at least i don't think he used maphack vs me when we played in defiler 3 weeks ago
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would a protoss stack 2 observers and send them into terran main over 2 turrets when terran goes m&m without even scouting that there was turrets? dont know much about pvt but that in itself seems very suspicious to me
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well it seems he just acquired it because in previous defiler tours he got raped and lose to all in lings/proxy hatch and so on. This is what makes it even more curious.
On June 12 2013 05:31 uT)WhistleR wrote: would a protoss stack 2 observers and send them into terran main over 2 turrets when terran goes m&m without even scouting that there was turrets? dont know much about pvt but that in itself seems very suspicious to me +1
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i not watched any of the reps. but i guess is standard to have turrets in terran base.no ? ;;
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On June 12 2013 01:45 Letherebelight wrote: More interesting fact is, Neagle and Anfod who overwhelm the defiler tour is merely a dust of amateurs between korean.
Hi Neagle.
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On June 12 2013 05:46 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: i not watched any of the reps. but i guess is standard to have turrets in terran base.no ? ;;
I guess he means that it is suspicious that Neagle would send two observers to ensure he "scouts" in a game where Terran does such an unusual build.
I am watching this game right now (it is the DT #59 Final Neagle vs. Boss.Weekly) and I am not so convinced it was a hacker move. His observers did live just long enough to luckily see an additional barracks being built above the factory. A true hacker who wants to appear to not hack would have sent two observers to a vulnerable place like the very back of the Terran base.
Actually, the real reason why I don't suspect that Neagle hacks comes just after this observer move, when the Terran was moving out with his tanks. He left all of his tanks very vulnerable. It was 11 dragoons against 6 unsieged tanks at 9:20 in the game. A hacker would have destroyed the tanks and ended the game there.
I understand sometimes when you play a hacker, you can "feel" you are playing a hacker. So I look for any more hacker moves. At the ~21:00 minute mark the Terran moves out to P's ninja 12 base, toss had no observer in front of Terran to see move out but he did have zealot patrolling that did see. Did Neagle reposition his army and react to the move out a little too quickly? Not having a rewind function makes watching a specific move several times less than ideal, but necessary if one is to take such accusations seriously. It is moves like these I would find suspicious, but most any player repositions their army all the time, based only on a sense in anticipation for what the Terran is doing, without necessarily seeing with an observer.
Whistler, great game 1 vs Neagle! "There is a hatchery in his natural and that isn't normal." Much less involved than the Weekly finals game. No sign of hacking.
Whistler game 2: ~3:00 minute mark he did not react as a hacker would to the run by. A good hacker would have sooner reacted to the runby by seeing it on the minimap.
I'm watching Neagle's (lack of) army movement and he's just not abusing like a maphacker woud. A true hacker makes consistent beneficial army trades with storms, dealing damage with goons, and moving back. With full map vision you can hit zerg army from all sides, and he's just not using to his advantage.
This game comes down to Whistler moving his whole army to fight the 4 zealot drop in his main, while Neagle masses off 8 gateways and rolls Whistler's 3rd, ending the game.
None of this I think can definitely say he hacks or not. A map hack may give the user the confidence to do something like this strategy though. As a counter to that, I believe Whistler was behind throughout the game in unit count after the early game, and Neagle knew it is a safe bet to just mass off 8 gateways.
Game 3 Neagle takes out Whistler's 3rd with 4 gate zealot. Would a hack help Neagle determine muta timing and whether 4 gate zealot is a good idea? Yes. Does his use of this strategy mean he hacks? Not necessarily.
Watching the Terror games. Don't see any sign of hack.
TL, DR: lol Iraq appears to be falling deeper into sectarian conflict as a wave of bombings and shootings killed more than 70 people Monday. Nearly 2,000 people have died since April amid rising tensions between Iraq’s Shiite-led government and Sunni militants.
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On June 12 2013 04:11 dRaW wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 01:40 Letherebelight wrote: it's just you guys don't have game sense. That's why you always lose to amateur korean players. Korean class is different. Imagine. How can level of korean be same with you guys? korean train with each other, and you just play on iccup where half of users are under the level of 10 years old of korean child actually no, he did goon scout in both and had different reactions to both. I beat neagle pvp last season, and if you check his ladder history ON iccup he is not that good http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/Neagle.htmlSo how does a not very good player win defiler tour? Also, if you watch more of his games you will see patterns of blind counters. He won sziky once but that is one event, with a very unusual build. I also find it funny that you mention we're losing to korean amateurs, most of them have been caught hacking. Cindy beat me 2-1 he was aka Sunday and banned from iccup. I wonder if he can win without hack? I bet not.
I know Neagle as a clan member, and I know he is competent enough to beat all foreign starcraft users. His fish ladder is much higher of sziky's. Maybe neagle is not playing iccup seriously, he play all races as you see in tour 57. He likes to play 5drones and new builds in ladder system. Cause those are not the serious games. You see He even played zerg and terran in Defiler tour final lol.
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I'm now watching replays again, and there's no sign of map hacking even small thing that can be issued .. how can he lose several games with map hacking?
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On June 12 2013 11:14 andreyyisbestandrey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 05:46 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: i not watched any of the reps. but i guess is standard to have turrets in terran base.no ? ;; I guess he means that it is suspicious that Neagle would send two observers to ensure he "scouts" in a game where Terran does such an unusual build. I am watching this game right now (it is the DT #59 Final Neagle vs. Boss.Weekly) and I am not so convinced it was a hacker move. His observers did live just long enough to luckily see an additional barracks being built above the factory. A true hacker who wants to appear to not hack would have sent two observers to a vulnerable place like the very back of the Terran base. Actually, the real reason why I don't suspect that Neagle hacks comes just after this observer move, when the Terran was moving out with his tanks. He left all of his tanks very vulnerable. It was 11 dragoons against 6 unsieged tanks at 9:20 in the game. A hacker would have destroyed the tanks and ended the game there. I understand sometimes when you play a hacker, you can "feel" you are playing a hacker. So I look for any more hacker moves. At the ~21:00 minute mark the Terran moves out to P's ninja 12 base, toss had no observer in front of Terran to see move out but he did have zealot patrolling that did see. Did Neagle reposition his army and react to the move out a little too quickly? Not having a rewind function makes watching a specific move several times less than ideal, but necessary if one is to take such accusations seriously. It is moves like these I would find suspicious, but most any player repositions their army all the time, based only on a sense in anticipation for what the Terran is doing, without necessarily seeing with an observer. Whistler, great game 1 vs Neagle! "There is a hatchery in his natural and that isn't normal." Much less involved than the Weekly finals game. No sign of hacking. Whistler game 2: ~3:00 minute mark he did not react as a hacker would to the run by. A good hacker would have sooner reacted to the runby by seeing it on the minimap. I'm watching Neagle's (lack of) army movement and he's just not abusing like a maphacker woud. A true hacker makes consistent beneficial army trades with storms, dealing damage with goons, and moving back. With full map vision you can hit zerg army from all sides, and he's just not using to his advantage. This game comes down to Whistler moving his whole army to fight the 4 zealot drop in his main, while Neagle masses off 8 gateways and rolls Whistler's 3rd, ending the game. None of this I think can definitely say he hacks or not. A map hack may give the user the confidence to do something like this strategy though. As a counter to that, I believe Whistler was behind throughout the game in unit count after the early game, and Neagle knew it is a safe bet to just mass off 8 gateways. Game 3 Neagle takes out Whistler's 3rd with 4 gate zealot. Would a hack help Neagle determine muta timing and whether 4 gate zealot is a good idea? Yes. Does his use of this strategy mean he hacks? Not necessarily. Watching the Terror games. Don't see any sign of hack. TL, DR: lol Iraq appears to be falling deeper into sectarian conflict as a wave of bombings and shootings killed more than 70 people Monday. Nearly 2,000 people have died since April amid rising tensions between Iraq’s Shiite-led government and Sunni militants.
it's mostly his inconsistent moves followed by his unusual scout timing. i.e he scouted the T in last game @ that time to see the move to 12, in other games he doesnt send random zealots to scout army movement though. (unless it's convenient). I understand lightkoreankid is saying that hes good , but generally good players do consistent sneaky things to gain intel at a higher level and determine follow-ups. Neagle's mechanics are not as great as his "fish level" would correlate to nor does he do any of these scouting methods consistently. In every game he wins, he is doing an optimal build to the opponent and using a timing to gain a clear advantage furthering his lead. In any game he loses, it's just because his mechanics are not that good and gets outmacroed.
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On June 12 2013 12:53 dRaW wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 11:14 andreyyisbestandrey wrote:On June 12 2013 05:46 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: i not watched any of the reps. but i guess is standard to have turrets in terran base.no ? ;; I guess he means that it is suspicious that Neagle would send two observers to ensure he "scouts" in a game where Terran does such an unusual build. I am watching this game right now (it is the DT #59 Final Neagle vs. Boss.Weekly) and I am not so convinced it was a hacker move. His observers did live just long enough to luckily see an additional barracks being built above the factory. A true hacker who wants to appear to not hack would have sent two observers to a vulnerable place like the very back of the Terran base. Actually, the real reason why I don't suspect that Neagle hacks comes just after this observer move, when the Terran was moving out with his tanks. He left all of his tanks very vulnerable. It was 11 dragoons against 6 unsieged tanks at 9:20 in the game. A hacker would have destroyed the tanks and ended the game there. I understand sometimes when you play a hacker, you can "feel" you are playing a hacker. So I look for any more hacker moves. At the ~21:00 minute mark the Terran moves out to P's ninja 12 base, toss had no observer in front of Terran to see move out but he did have zealot patrolling that did see. Did Neagle reposition his army and react to the move out a little too quickly? Not having a rewind function makes watching a specific move several times less than ideal, but necessary if one is to take such accusations seriously. It is moves like these I would find suspicious, but most any player repositions their army all the time, based only on a sense in anticipation for what the Terran is doing, without necessarily seeing with an observer. Whistler, great game 1 vs Neagle! "There is a hatchery in his natural and that isn't normal." Much less involved than the Weekly finals game. No sign of hacking. Whistler game 2: ~3:00 minute mark he did not react as a hacker would to the run by. A good hacker would have sooner reacted to the runby by seeing it on the minimap. I'm watching Neagle's (lack of) army movement and he's just not abusing like a maphacker woud. A true hacker makes consistent beneficial army trades with storms, dealing damage with goons, and moving back. With full map vision you can hit zerg army from all sides, and he's just not using to his advantage. This game comes down to Whistler moving his whole army to fight the 4 zealot drop in his main, while Neagle masses off 8 gateways and rolls Whistler's 3rd, ending the game. None of this I think can definitely say he hacks or not. A map hack may give the user the confidence to do something like this strategy though. As a counter to that, I believe Whistler was behind throughout the game in unit count after the early game, and Neagle knew it is a safe bet to just mass off 8 gateways. Game 3 Neagle takes out Whistler's 3rd with 4 gate zealot. Would a hack help Neagle determine muta timing and whether 4 gate zealot is a good idea? Yes. Does his use of this strategy mean he hacks? Not necessarily. Watching the Terror games. Don't see any sign of hack. TL, DR: lol Iraq appears to be falling deeper into sectarian conflict as a wave of bombings and shootings killed more than 70 people Monday. Nearly 2,000 people have died since April amid rising tensions between Iraq’s Shiite-led government and Sunni militants. it's mostly his inconsistent moves followed by his unusual scout timing. i.e he scouted the T in last game @ that time to see the move to 12, in other games he doesnt send random zealots to scout army movement though. (unless it's convenient). I understand lightkoreankid is saying that hes good , but generally good players do consistent sneaky things to gain intel at a higher level and determine follow-ups. Neagle's mechanics are not as great as his "fish level" would correlate to nor does he do any of these scouting methods consistently. In every game he wins, he is doing an optimal build to the opponent and using a timing to gain a clear advantage furthering his lead. In any game he loses, it's just because his mechanics are not that good and gets outmacroed.
Something to condider, but to that extent can be argued that Koreans are known to be dynamic players and fluidly play the situation by ear.
In the game he lost to Whistler, he had almost perfect micro and macro mechanics, he just did not anticipate a forward hatchery move. The other games against Whistler I can only say that choosing such builds - 4 gate mass and 8 gate mass are not indicative in themselves that he hacks. I may not have caught suspious activity but would love to see an analysis of ehether or not what did were viable, safe plays based on what he knew. But even if they were not, that still does not prive one way or the other.
Proving something based on moves from a replay is difficult. You do not know what the player is thinking. Especially so with people as weird and different as Koreans. Koreans think about this game in their Korean terms
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Sorry if that is a little hard to read, the mobile version truly is experimental as they warn it is.
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On June 12 2013 05:31 uT)WhistleR wrote: would a protoss stack 2 observers and send them into terran main over 2 turrets when terran goes m&m without even scouting that there was turrets? dont know much about pvt but that in itself seems very suspicious to me
Hey Whistler I saw replay between you and neagle , and you insists he's cheesing. regardless of what he do, basic competence in replay between you and neagle seems huge. At the second game you and neagle's unit count was almost double ... even he did not get huge advantage. and i think neagle was confident with 8gate you'll be over, and even we assume 8gate did not work, you were still losing that he can just get third base, and you cannot disturb it cause you were just lair tech, not that good upgrade,, not much drone...
You cannot, and should not argue on neagle's play. He's much out of your level it seems
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On June 12 2013 14:22 andreyyisbestandrey wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 12:53 dRaW wrote:On June 12 2013 11:14 andreyyisbestandrey wrote:On June 12 2013 05:46 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: i not watched any of the reps. but i guess is standard to have turrets in terran base.no ? ;; I guess he means that it is suspicious that Neagle would send two observers to ensure he "scouts" in a game where Terran does such an unusual build. I am watching this game right now (it is the DT #59 Final Neagle vs. Boss.Weekly) and I am not so convinced it was a hacker move. His observers did live just long enough to luckily see an additional barracks being built above the factory. A true hacker who wants to appear to not hack would have sent two observers to a vulnerable place like the very back of the Terran base. Actually, the real reason why I don't suspect that Neagle hacks comes just after this observer move, when the Terran was moving out with his tanks. He left all of his tanks very vulnerable. It was 11 dragoons against 6 unsieged tanks at 9:20 in the game. A hacker would have destroyed the tanks and ended the game there. I understand sometimes when you play a hacker, you can "feel" you are playing a hacker. So I look for any more hacker moves. At the ~21:00 minute mark the Terran moves out to P's ninja 12 base, toss had no observer in front of Terran to see move out but he did have zealot patrolling that did see. Did Neagle reposition his army and react to the move out a little too quickly? Not having a rewind function makes watching a specific move several times less than ideal, but necessary if one is to take such accusations seriously. It is moves like these I would find suspicious, but most any player repositions their army all the time, based only on a sense in anticipation for what the Terran is doing, without necessarily seeing with an observer. Whistler, great game 1 vs Neagle! "There is a hatchery in his natural and that isn't normal." Much less involved than the Weekly finals game. No sign of hacking. Whistler game 2: ~3:00 minute mark he did not react as a hacker would to the run by. A good hacker would have sooner reacted to the runby by seeing it on the minimap. I'm watching Neagle's (lack of) army movement and he's just not abusing like a maphacker woud. A true hacker makes consistent beneficial army trades with storms, dealing damage with goons, and moving back. With full map vision you can hit zerg army from all sides, and he's just not using to his advantage. This game comes down to Whistler moving his whole army to fight the 4 zealot drop in his main, while Neagle masses off 8 gateways and rolls Whistler's 3rd, ending the game. None of this I think can definitely say he hacks or not. A map hack may give the user the confidence to do something like this strategy though. As a counter to that, I believe Whistler was behind throughout the game in unit count after the early game, and Neagle knew it is a safe bet to just mass off 8 gateways. Game 3 Neagle takes out Whistler's 3rd with 4 gate zealot. Would a hack help Neagle determine muta timing and whether 4 gate zealot is a good idea? Yes. Does his use of this strategy mean he hacks? Not necessarily. Watching the Terror games. Don't see any sign of hack. TL, DR: lol Iraq appears to be falling deeper into sectarian conflict as a wave of bombings and shootings killed more than 70 people Monday. Nearly 2,000 people have died since April amid rising tensions between Iraq’s Shiite-led government and Sunni militants. it's mostly his inconsistent moves followed by his unusual scout timing. i.e he scouted the T in last game @ that time to see the move to 12, in other games he doesnt send random zealots to scout army movement though. (unless it's convenient). I understand lightkoreankid is saying that hes good , but generally good players do consistent sneaky things to gain intel at a higher level and determine follow-ups. Neagle's mechanics are not as great as his "fish level" would correlate to nor does he do any of these scouting methods consistently. In every game he wins, he is doing an optimal build to the opponent and using a timing to gain a clear advantage furthering his lead. In any game he loses, it's just because his mechanics are not that good and gets outmacroed. Something to condider, but to that extent can be argued that Koreans are known to be dynamic players and fluidly play the situation by ear. In the game he lost to Whistler, he had almost perfect micro and macro mechanics, he just did not anticipate a forward hatchery move. The other games against Whistler I can only say that choosing such builds - 4 gate mass and 8 gate mass are not indicative in themselves that he hacks. I may not have caught suspious activity but would love to see an analysis of ehether or not what did were viable, safe plays based on what he knew. But even if they were not, that still does not prive one way or the other. Proving something based on moves from a replay is difficult. You do not know what the player is thinking. Especially so with people as weird and different as Koreans. Koreans think about this game in their Korean terms
I agree on your thinking, andrey. They cannot understand korean playing. In neagle and whistler's 2nd game, whistler seems to be much like map hacker that he noticed 11`o clock zealot standing without any scout.
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English VODs are up. I start at the Winners' RO4 and proceed from there on, jumping between Winners' and Losers' rounds. I wanted to do them on Sunday already but I spent most of that day doing volunteer work building flood defenses, so most of my time was filled up with shoveling sand into bags and loading them onto trucks. That made me a relative zombie on Monday, so I did the casts on Tuseday evening.
PLEASE READ THIS BEFORE WATCHING I have kept myself away deliberately from this thread in order not to get spoiled. Imagine my surprise when coming here and reading through it, I feel like a goddamn noob idiot and being the daft fuck I am I haven't grown suspicious during the commentary (I'm a beginner and had many many other things I felt I needed to watch for in the games). I'm sorry. I have linked to this thread as well as Technics' one in the youtube description of every game. I would like to apologise to Whistler here, in one of the games I made a rant at him (I believed he was complaining about lag). Have not yet had time to rewatch the games and I'm at work now (whoops) - so all I have to base any judgement on are the posts in the two threads. That said, lettherebelight's arguments would be a lot less irritating were he not so negative and condescending and would actually, well, argue. His demeanor actually makes him more suspicious. The rest of the discussion is amazingly civil and no-nonsense imho, business is awesome as usual on TL.
+ Show Spoiler [VODS] +
YouTube playlist
EDIT: Typos and le grammar.
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Russian Federation9 Posts
lol, Neagle = Letherebelight
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Brief summary:
Game 1 vs Moro: blind cross position greedy build, way too early blind counter against moro's lings, perfect defences against mutas (moro makes lots of mutas) Game 2 vs Moro: heavy blind counter against moro's strategy, no scouting, lollish 1st zealot moving timing, strange way to move corsairs. Game 1 vs Zaraki: scout from the first time into perfect defences against mutas (zaraki makes only mutas) Game 2 vs Zaraki: Blind counter with super early +1 of sairs when zaraki is making early 2nd gas on natural, highly suspicious movements with the army. Game1 vs Whistler: scout from first time, chobo play in a non-standard situation Game 2 vs Whistler: blind cross position greedy build, super suspicious scouting and probe pulling, blind 0 defences against mutas (opponent makes no mutas), super suspicious fast 4 zealot drop - moves so freely on the map like he knows there are no scourges Game 3 vs Whistler: blind cross position greedy build into fast win Game 1 vs Justice: scout from first try Game 2 vs Justice: Scout from the first time + super early blind forge vs 4pool Game 1 vs Cryoc: Blind massarmy counter to cryoc's doings, super suspicious shuttle/reaver movement exactly when cryoc moves out, suspicious army movements throughout the whole game, complaining about map being unfair... (lol) Game 2 vs Cryoc: No scout, absolutely blind cross position super greedy build into more timed greedy decisions Game 3 vs Cryoc: No scout into 'finding' his opponent following an scv with 1st goon.
This is a brief of analysis of the 15 players from the DT #59. Notice the patterns? I'm sure there's a lot more, but when he is cross positions he goes for blind counters or blind greedy counters. When his opponent is next to him he scouts from the first time in prevailing amount of cases. Neagle clearly maphacks. The quesiton is why are letherebelight and dredredre all of a sudden so insistent on defending him? What do you know about him? Where do you know him from and how are you guys close?
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