|
This ability is relatively similar to its Sc1 counter part in terms of damage, but in terms of animation, it casts almost instantaneously; making it un-dodgable.
The damage is also dealt more instantaneously, as opposed to over a period of a few seconds.
The spell is just as strong as it was in Sc1 in regards to damage, only now it's far easier to use; in regards to timing, aiming, and casting multiple storms at once.
In Sc1, its difficulty to use, in a way, balanced out its terrible, terrible damage.
I feel the damage needs to be spread over a longer period of time, giving players the opportunity to micro away, and avoid at least some of the damage.
Having entire armies decimated in a matter of seconds takes away from the game play itself; why bother with micro, and what units to focus fire when you can spam psi storm all day? It's also discouraging, that unless you have a decent advantage in army size and can absorb a few storms, you're going to get steamrolled.
Edit:
This post is by no means a call for a NERF to storm. It just needs to be modified in how it works, to better balance it.
After sifting through the crap in this thread and finding some decent posts I personally feel:
-It should do slightly more damage, but over a longer period of time
I don't think its AoE size should increase by any means, because the spell is so easy to multi-cast (compared to how hard it was to use in Sc1); in Sc2 you can throw down multiple, perfectly aimed Storms in a matter of moments, relatively easily.
Anyone who says Storm is harder to use in in Sc2 than it was in Sc1 needs to stop trolling.
|
Agreed. At the moment, particularly against Zerg, it just seems like there's no way to micro out of it effectively.
|
psi storm does less damage than the original. it also has a smaller area of affect. there is plenty of time to micro away. your last point makes little sense as it's nearly the same, if not more so, the case in sc1
oh and it has less cast range.
|
|
Yeah, lets nerf the protoss some moar!!
|
|
PSI Storm is fine...you have to predict it's cast. what I do is when I see the templar running forward during a battle I micro my mutas back and then watch it's wasted cast. It doesn't always work, but sometimes it does.
If anything make the templar more distinguishable because I sometimes mistake them for zealots. (This is with everything at max settings which is where the game thought I should be at)
|
i think storms much weaker (roaches lol!), not easier to use at all and early emp can deny it pretty well.
sc1 storm was just so much better -_-;
|
i agree that storm should do damage over a period of time to allow microing away. It should also be buffed though, or else I'll just keep going collossi.
|
protoss should loose storm and collossi they are too strong. nurf zealots some more while you are at it
|
Storm should have more duration and damage overtime. Units under the storm for a long time will receive full damage that can kill them while units that have been moved away would still live.
On March 21 2010 18:18 Perseverance wrote: PSI Storm is fine...you have to predict it's cast. what I do is when I see the templar running forward during a battle I micro my mutas back and then watch it's wasted cast. It doesn't always work, but sometimes it does. This seems to be almost impossible if there's LAN latency.
|
Agreed. Even when I EMP, just one templar being able to sneak off a storm completely wins him the battle.
|
The problem is that small units clump far too much in SC2 so even though the AOE is smaller it often hits more units than it did in BW. The opposing player needs to learn to split his units better and fight the clumping that happens by having multiple hotkeys and just doing more efficient concaves.
It is not overpowered by any means and making it weaker would just result in protoss always going colossi instead.
|
On March 21 2010 18:18 Perseverance wrote: PSI Storm is fine...you have to predict it's cast. what I do is when I see the templar running forward during a battle I micro my mutas back and then watch it's wasted cast. It doesn't always work, but sometimes it does.
If anything make the templar more distinguishable because I sometimes mistake them for zealots. (This is with everything at max settings which is where the game thought I should be at)
That certainly works when you have fast air units that can escape safely, and when there's only one or so templar. I'm not convinced psi storm needs a nerf but I certainly felt some serious "you gotta be kidding me" in a TvP the other day where my opponent just streamed in his high templaer after the fight started. Very well played by him, so I can't complain, but I EMP'ed my heart out and simply didn't have enough to get all the units and high templar. And if you just miss 2 high templar with a terran bio army you're absolute dead meat. I probably just needed more than 3 ghosts (although luckily my opponent didn't feedback), but that game convinced me soundly that storm is anything but weak.
|
sc1 storm damage was 114(If I remember right) and sc2 storm damage is 80 :}.
Edit: sc1 storm does 8x14 = 112, my bad ;P.
|
On March 21 2010 18:32 lolaloc wrote:Storm should have more duration and damage overtime. Units under the storm for a long time will receive full damage that can kill them while units that have been moved away would still live. Show nested quote +On March 21 2010 18:18 Perseverance wrote: PSI Storm is fine...you have to predict it's cast. what I do is when I see the templar running forward during a battle I micro my mutas back and then watch it's wasted cast. It doesn't always work, but sometimes it does. This seems to be almost impossible if there's LAN latency. lol? If there's LAN Latency, it gets way easier to do this :}.
|
|
I could have sworn most people were complaining about psi storm delay a week ago.
|
Nerfing psi storm would essentially mean Protoss has to open Robotics more than they already do, which is practically all the time. I prefer playing templar tech as Protoss but generally find Robotics to be more powerful. When playing against Protoss I generally have a more difficult time against Robo builds as well. In my opinion storm should be left as is, and Colossus should be nerfed a bit. Additionally changes should be made to Z to help P in PvZ and T to help T in TvP (even with EMP, I've had plenty of success feedbacking ghosts and my PvT win-rate seems really high while my PvZ is mostly abysmal).
|
I'm in no way calling for a damage nerf. They can even buff the damage for all I care, I just feel it needs to have a longer duration of effect, at least giving some opportunity/purpose to dodge.
Right now It's more of an AoE nuke spell, that's spammable; it feels like a big "I.W.I.N" button...
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 21 2010 19:00 FREEloss_ca wrote: I'm in no way calling for a damage nerf. They can even buff the damage for all I care, I just feel it needs to have a longer duration of effect, at least giving some opportunity/purpose to dodge.
Right now It's more of an AoE nuke spell, that's spammable; it feels like a big "I.W.I.N" button... What about chargelots charging straight into the AoE nuke spelling and "I.W.I.N"ing your own units?
|
Well I want to say that if your chargelots get hurt more than his hydras you didn't place the storm correctly but I know it's not that trivial of a problem. Question though: can you rightclick charge off? It's normally on auto-cast, no? I would imagine you can simply make it manual-cast, unless it's the one auto-cast button that doesn't allow you to toggle it off
|
Even with a longer duration, it would give you an opportunity to micro your zealots away for 2-3 seconds. Or aim your storms better; aim behind your opponents units so the AoE is just clipping them from behind while your zealots attack from the front.
But I digress...
The Spell is an AoE NUKE; I don't even feel like it fits in Starcraft, it feels like a DOTA spell...
It should do MORE damage, but over a longer duration.
|
Psi Storm is fine. If anything, it's just a tad weak now, or perhaps the tech is a tad late. Either way, it's anything but overpowered.
|
The thing about storm, that units have way less collision in sc2, and, lets say if u could storm 12 hydras in sc1 with 1 storm, you can storm like 50 hydras in sc2 :}.
|
I thought it kinda worked the other way tbh . . . SC2 seems to have more collision. Maybe I'm just high.
|
Psi storm is in no way overpowered, I'd even go as far to say as Templar tech is worthless compared to colossus, vs any race.
|
Archons need to be more useful so templar tech is on level with robo.. Archon is about the same as 2 zealots.. same hp as 2.. dps as 1 but can attack air, no splash.. Its kinda a waste to morph since you could just make 2 zealots and keep templars..
|
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On March 21 2010 19:50 FREEloss_ca wrote: Even with a longer duration, it would give you an opportunity to micro your zealots away for 2-3 seconds. Or aim your storms better; aim behind your opponents units so the AoE is just clipping them from behind while your zealots attack from the front.
But I digress...
The Spell is an AoE NUKE; I don't even feel like it fits in Starcraft, it feels like a DOTA spell...
It should do MORE damage, but over a longer duration. Any half decent zerg will retreat his hydra drawing your lots into the storm because you can't control their charge once it starts....
|
Psistorm might be okay if DT is at same buildings, so it unlocks two. Right now, a separate building for templar high storm.... meh.
|
What? Storm is one of the things that need a buff.
|
On March 21 2010 21:19 CagedMind wrote: What? Storm is one of the things that need a buff.
Storm doesn't need a buff at all. I'll explain from my point of view (as Terran) without crying about Storm being imbalanced, because it is not.
Right now the area of effect of storm is really small, but the fact that storm is easy to cast and the damage is dealt really fast (Duration: 4 seconds; ticks 10 damage / 0,5 seconds = 80 damage) makes storm a really powerful spell.
There's a few things I'd like to change; First of all I'd change the unit colossion so units don't stick together like they do now, as Terran your army is mainly marine/marauder and they mostly move together in a big blob which can easily be stormed multiple times and there's NOT(!) enough time to evacuate your units properly. Most of them will die by the time they moved out of the area of effect.
You might try to avoid your complete army sticking together with grouping not more than 20 units in one controlgroup, but that just makes it a little better.
About storm itself, I'd like to change the area of effect so it gets slightly larger, but deals less damager per second, for example they increase the area of effect by 15% while the storm now is 6 seconds and ticks 7,5 damage / 0.5 seconds. This would add up to a total damage of 90 while its area is increased. Technically its a buff, while gameplay wise it would be a nerf.
Kind of like the reaper 'nerf' - buff.
|
i agree it should have a little longer effect but I sometimes dont know if its that strong to begin with... pretty sure that storm doesnt kill hydra in one shot so I think its not that strong
|
On March 21 2010 22:25 likeaboss wrote: i agree it should have a little longer effect but I sometimes dont know if its that strong to begin with... pretty sure that storm doesnt kill hydra in one shot so I think its not that strong
With the changes I named it would kill a hydra in one shot but also give the possibility for a good player to micro out of a storm, because it would tick damage not as fast, but deal more damage total.
|
Don't have your whole army in one control group.
It's pretty ridiculous in a game with more damage than it's predecessor, to say an already weaker storm in every way should be nerfed.
|
On March 21 2010 18:04 w_Ender_w wrote: You spelled EMP wrong.
This.
|
Storm isn't imba now by any means. Storm had 4 main purposes back in the day. 1.) Killing hydras and mass-lings. It no longer does this as effectively (not a 1-hit kill on hydras). 2.) Raping a T-bio timing push. It still does this. 3.) Softening up bigger units, I.e. Tanks/Ultras/carriers/BCs, etc... It still does this, albeit less effectively. 4.) Harrassing mineral lines. It does this slightly less effectively since it takes like 3 storms to clean out a mineral line now instead of 2.
So basically, in no situation is storm more powerful, relatively speaking, than it was in BW. I mean seriously how many times did you hear people complaining "I can't move my stimmed m&m out of storm when I'm Deep Sixing!" I mean... that's sort of the point.
|
United States24345 Posts
Have to wholeheartedly agree with most of the things z/t said in this thread. To the p's who are saying "it's neither OP nor needs a buff, you just gotta learn how to minimize damage" I can respect that even though I'm not sure if I agree.
To the protoss complaining it's underpowered and needs a buff... either you are noob with templar tech units or you get matched up against david kim, cowgomoo, etc, every time you play pvx.
I can't actually speak about pvz much but regarding the argument that storm is weaker since it can't 1 shot a hydra: in sc1 it could one shot a hydra but never did because hydras would almost always move out of the way... what's your point.
Regarding pvt, no matter what terran does bio will clump up to some extent, making it a prime target for storms (medivacs do too but that's a separate issue somewhat). Protoss will have vision of the back row units of terran (ghosts) before terran will have vision of the back row units of protoss since protoss uses melee units and terran doesn't (generally). This makes it easier to get storms off before emp can hit the templar. Storm dodging has been my focus for the past week or two and it's not always very effective. The maps are pretty tight often making it very difficult to dodge. The only success I've had is sometimes retreating so that the chargelots take the brunt of the damage like plexa pointed out, but most p don't seem to get many chargelots while getting storm anymore.
It's almost impossible to prevent storms from happening. To the protoss who say "it's pretty easy to nullify templar with emp" I want to know why I don't hear protoss players whining about how templar are so useless vs terran with ghosts lately.
edit: On March 21 2010 23:59 love1another wrote: 1.) Killing hydras and mass-lings. It no longer does this as effectively (not a 1-hit kill on hydras).
NO! It won't 1 hit kill hydras which should get micro'd out of the way in sc1 OR sc2!
On March 21 2010 23:59 love1another wrote: Storm isn't imba now by any means. Storm had 4 main purposes back in the day. 1.) Killing hydras and mass-lings. It no longer does this as effectively (not a 1-hit kill on hydras). 2.) Raping a T-bio timing push. It still does this. 3.) Softening up bigger units, I.e. Tanks/Ultras/carriers/BCs, etc... It still does this, albeit less effectively. 4.) Harrassing mineral lines. It does this slightly less effectively since it takes like 3 storms to clean out a mineral line now instead of 2.
So basically, in no situation is storm more powerful, relatively speaking, than it was in BW. I mean seriously how many times did you hear people complaining "I can't move my stimmed m&m out of storm when I'm Deep Sixing!" I mean... that's sort of the point.
Your #1 wasn't a problem for terran in sc1 since terran didn't need to go bio... it was just an interesting alternate to meching. Good luck with that right now in tvp.
|
Yeah storm is damage over time.. I have no idea what is he talking about.
"I feel the damage needs to be spread over a longer period of time, giving players the opportunity to micro away, and avoid at least some of the damage."
|
On March 21 2010 23:59 micronesia wrote:It's almost impossible to prevent storms from happening. To the protoss who say "it's pretty easy to nullify templar with emp" I want to know why I don't hear protoss players whining about how templar are so useless vs terran with ghosts lately. edit: Show nested quote +On March 21 2010 23:59 love1another wrote: 1.) Killing hydras and mass-lings. It no longer does this as effectively (not a 1-hit kill on hydras).
NO! It won't 1 hit kill hydras which should get micro'd out of the way in sc1 OR sc2! Show nested quote +On March 21 2010 23:59 love1another wrote: Storm isn't imba now by any means. Storm had 4 main purposes back in the day. 1.) Killing hydras and mass-lings. It no longer does this as effectively (not a 1-hit kill on hydras). 2.) Raping a T-bio timing push. It still does this. 3.) Softening up bigger units, I.e. Tanks/Ultras/carriers/BCs, etc... It still does this, albeit less effectively. 4.) Harrassing mineral lines. It does this slightly less effectively since it takes like 3 storms to clean out a mineral line now instead of 2.
So basically, in no situation is storm more powerful, relatively speaking, than it was in BW. I mean seriously how many times did you hear people complaining "I can't move my stimmed m&m out of storm when I'm Deep Sixing!" I mean... that's sort of the point.
Your #1 wasn't a problem for terran in sc1 since terran didn't need to go bio... it was just an interesting alternate to meching. Good luck with that right now in tvp.
I don't understand your comment on my hydra analysis. In BW it 1-hit killed hydras if they weren't micro'd now it doesn't, that's just an issue of numbers 75 < 80 < 90 < 112.
This is reasonable, since hydras are moved to Tier 2.5, but in PvT the problem, as you said is that
...in sc1 since terran didn't need to go bio... it was just an interesting alternate to meching. Good luck with that right now in tvp.
It's not storm that's OP, it's the fact that terran mech is heavily underpowered against P, what with everything being good against tanks and thor.
|
with bio its like useless to even try to dodge storms, they just kill u so quickly lol
id like if they added more time to it, also the effectof it just fills the whole area that u cant see which units are being stormed
|
United States24345 Posts
One possible adaptation (without putting a ton of thought into it) is to make the rate at which damage is dealt not constant. Suppose a thor is in storm... he should just receive the damage at a constant rate. Suppose a marine is in storm... since a marine is a more necessary unit in sc2 than sc1 he needs a bit of help. Allow the same total damage to be dealt over the duration but make the rate of damage being dealt smaller at first and grow as time elapses. This means if you manage to dodge the storm with smaller units within the first few moments you don't take that much damage, but if you are a second late you still lose all your bio (which is more fair).
This is instead of patching to make bio unnecessary in sc2.
|
You can't go pure Mech, so what? It was kind of an accident that TvP just kind of worked out that way in BW, but SC2 demands more unit mixing and reactive play; you need to be prepared to pull out any unit giving time and notice, because in my opinion you need to try to make use of your whole army in each matchup, rather than a few 3 or 4 units that happen to shine in that particular matchup. PvT BW anyone? Zeals Goons Arbiters vs Tanks Vults Goliaths? Seen games all the way up to B- with nothing more than those 3 units more or less (as far as combat goes).
|
On March 22 2010 00:08 MorroW wrote: with bio its like useless to even try to dodge storms, they just kill u so quickly lol
id like if they added more time to it, also the effectof it just fills the whole area that u cant see which units are being stormed My point is that, even in BW, it was also basically pointless to try to dodge storm if you were going bio against toss. The issue is that now in SC2, people are actually going bio. Making bio unnecessary is sort of a misevaluation of the situation from BW. Basically the only reason bio was made inefficient in BW was because of the power of 2 units: the reaver and the templar. The colossus is basically as effective as the reaver in the bio-killing capacity, and the templar is still there.
Marines are tier-1 for a reason right? The introduction of higher tier units should, naturally, sway the favor of battle against an army composed primarily of tier 1 units like the marine (until they get the hp upgrade which makes surviving the storm somewhat possible, assuming units are not terribly clumped).
Marauders, HP and speed-wise, on the other hand, are not made obsolete by storm. It takes 2 full, standing still, hits of storm to kill them. With any kind of micro or prediction, you're in a similar position to PvZ in BW where hydras were dodging storms left and right and still piling up damage against the P ball.
|
I think the real problem with psi storm is that thanks to the smart AI in this game, units group together in a much more concentrated manner. It results in a couple psi storms just decimating large groups of units instantly.
|
I think not only do units clump together too much but the maps don't really give much space. It seems like they have no choice but to clump together close.
|
On March 21 2010 19:50 FREEloss_ca wrote: Even with a longer duration, it would give you an opportunity to micro your zealots away for 2-3 seconds. Or aim your storms better; aim behind your opponents units so the AoE is just clipping them from behind while your zealots attack from the front.
But I digress...
The Spell is an AoE NUKE; I don't even feel like it fits in Starcraft, it feels like a DOTA spell...
It should do MORE damage, but over a longer duration. lol, storm is an aoe nuke but hsm which actually does more damage and does it all at one time is fine? very nice. not to mention the actual nuke...
|
Storm already spreads its damage over some time, I find competent players (especially terrans) can always avoid it. I get templar instead of robo tech every game, and because of the latency you cant really micor your units around the storm, they will take some damage from it too. If in addition to this, storms dot was even more spread out, I wouldnt use it, hell noone would. I use it even though I think robo is superior, simply because its fun to do so. If storm was even less comparable to colossi then now, absolutely noone would use it good lord stop asking for toss nerfs, theres barely any left in the top 8's
On March 22 2010 00:54 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2010 19:50 FREEloss_ca wrote: Even with a longer duration, it would give you an opportunity to micro your zealots away for 2-3 seconds. Or aim your storms better; aim behind your opponents units so the AoE is just clipping them from behind while your zealots attack from the front.
But I digress...
The Spell is an AoE NUKE; I don't even feel like it fits in Starcraft, it feels like a DOTA spell...
It should do MORE damage, but over a longer duration. lol, storm is an aoe nuke but hsm which actually does more damage and does it all at one time is fine? very nice. not to mention the actual nuke...
Why would a terran player complain about a terran ability
|
The funniest thing about all the people bitching on this thread is that I watch good terrans waste protoss all the time with EMP. Get over it. This spell doesn't need to be nerfed at all. It doesn't need to be buffed either. It's fine the way it is.
|
I think this thread should have said EMP instead of Psi Storm
leave it alone, its fine, if anything you could buff it a bit
QQ MOAR
hell why dont we just get rid of protoss? Ya know what, maybe the protoss will merge into the Hybrid race and we'll have a single 'campaign'/race for both, maybe then they wont be so frikkin weak
|
I think psi storm is one of the things that definitely needs buffing in sc2 lol..
|
United States4126 Posts
I think Psi Storm overall is good enough as it is. With smart casting, it takes only a few clicks to cover your opponent's whole army with storm. I find it ridiculous if the Protoss has several HT in their army because they're almost always guaranteed blanket storms if the HT get in range.
|
United States24345 Posts
On March 22 2010 01:12 Darpinion wrote: The funniest thing about all the people bitching on this thread is that I watch good terrans waste protoss all the time with EMP. Get over it. This spell doesn't need to be nerfed at all. It doesn't need to be buffed either. It's fine the way it is. Er, just because terran is capable of wasting protoss with EMP doesn't mean that they are equally balanced/effective/etc. You have provided no actual evidence/justification for your claim that storm doesn't require a change. However, you haven't addressed most of the issues brought up about why storm is difficult from the t/z perspective. Basically you could have posted nothing and accomplished the same thing.
On March 22 2010 01:18 Windblade wrote: I think this thread should have said EMP instead of Psi Storm
leave it alone, its fine, if anything you could buff it a bit
QQ MOAR
hell why dont we just get rid of protoss? Ya know what, maybe the protoss will merge into the Hybrid race and we'll have a single 'campaign'/race for both, maybe then they wont be so frikkin weak A lot of the issues brought up by z/t are fairly level-headed (regardless of if they are right or not) and not highly clouded in emotion... unlike your post. You claim it could use a buff but don't justify it. You tell t/z to qq moar. Then you go on a tirade about how z/t is essentially trying to nerf protoss into a oblivion. When you are ready to contribute let us know.
On March 22 2010 01:19 red.venom wrote: I think psi storm is one of the things that definitely needs buffing in sc2 lol.. I think marines should have 62 hp and hydralisks should have +1 range. Without any explanation those are both useless claims lol..
On March 22 2010 01:22 Kinky wrote: I think Psi Storm overall is good enough as it is. With smart casting, it takes only a few clicks to cover your opponent's whole army with storm. I find it ridiculous if the Protoss has several HT in their army because they're almost always guaranteed blanket storms if the HT get in range. Agree. Thank you for attempting to explain yourself unlike those before you :p
edit: I'm generally staying away from sc2 discussion on tl because (despite being better than the blizz forums) it's generally lacking in calm objective discussion. There is a surplus of personal attacks, whiny complaints, and other bullshit that doesn't actually contribute. I'm falling behind in strategy because I can't stand sifting through the poor excuses for discussion that are plaguing the forums... and bravo to the ~50% of you who simply want to calmly discuss this and back up your claims without getting offended at every little contrary idea like a 12 year old.
|
if anything, storm is way to weak. collosus just dish out so much more damage
|
I don't think it will get nerfed much if at all because of the 700ish games i've played, storm has been a factor in less than 40 and most of the time it's me using it. It's really rare to see opponents make HT. When i make HT in 2v2 games though it seems like an instant win. That's a combination of people who play 2v2 are generally much worse than those that play 1v1 and units are super clumped. If a T doesn't get EMP vs storm i really dont know how they are supposed to win. EMP counters it pretty good though!
|
United States24345 Posts
On March 22 2010 01:49 da_head wrote: if anything, storm is way to weak. collosus just dish out so much more damage Collosus are in fact very strong but it isn't that difficult to counter them if you have the right units and control them correctly (which I mess up sometimes :p) Just get some vikings and abuse their range while avoiding engaging the protoss as much as you can.
There doesn't seem to be a hard counter to storm. The only argument I've heard which should really be discussed is exactly the nature of EMP vs storm.
da_head like those before you you made a claim (storm is way too weak) without providing any justification whatsoever. I'm trying to weed that out of this discussion so that something can actually be accomplished but it doesn't seem to be working.
|
I disagree. Balance shouldn't be based upon how easy a spell is to use. It should be based on the potential of the spell. Sci storm is significantly less effective than in sc1 because of lower damage, units having higher HP, and the smaller area. Sci storm is easily spammable, but you do have the potential to storm just as fast in sc1, with higher damage and area of effect, just look at at Jangbi. If Zerg of Terran players love balling up their army, that's their fault, they can easily put their units in multiple control groups.
Balance should always be based on potential. If we make sc2 balanced for competitive players instead of casual players, I feel that it's a good thing. Balance isn't so important in less competitive play for the reason that individual skill and strategy plays a much larger role. In sc1, we're not going to buff vultures if players find vulture micro too difficult, we're not going to nerf stasis if players can't spread their tanks. It's the same in sc2, we're not going to nerf storms if players just ball up their entire army in the 7 hexagonal cells.
|
On March 22 2010 01:52 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 01:49 da_head wrote: if anything, storm is way to weak. collosus just dish out so much more damage Collosus are in fact very strong but it isn't that difficult to counter them if you have the right units and control them correctly (which I mess up sometimes :p) Just get some vikings and abuse their range while avoiding engaging the protoss as much as you can. There doesn't seem to be a hard counter to storm. The only argument I've heard which should really be discussed is exactly the nature of EMP vs storm. da_head like those before you you made a claim (storm is way too weak) without providing any justification whatsoever. I'm trying to weed that out of this discussion so that something can actually be accomplished but it doesn't seem to be working. why do we need a hard-counter to every fucking unit/spell in the game? OMFGWTF ______ IS OP I NEED HARD-COUNTER TO MAKE MY LIFE EASY was there a hard-counter to storm in sc1? no, you just lived with the fact that its a strong spell and you did your best to dodge it. people complained about op colossus early on, then found out how to spread units to minimize damage, dont see why its not different here. dont stick 50 low-hp units in 1 control group, if you use 3-4+ like in SC1, a storm or two wont decimate your entire army.
|
my problem with psi-storms is that because threre are many units and the effect makes the game lag many times, so i cannot dodge. If it doesnt lag it's dodgable, you just need to think with the Ps had, and think where will he storm and pull back/forward earlier.
|
From the few streams I have watched, Protoss murdered bio with storms, yet without them they seem to melt to mmm. Can you actually fight a terran/zerg army without colossi or templars?
|
@micronesia
or maybe you can read between the lines, but ill spell it out for you
the first half was serious, the bottom was not, it's called sarcasm
I also said buff A BIT, meaning a buff wouldn't be bad, but then again its not very crucial or necessary as far as i can see. In regards to avoiding it, i see plenty of games where the player moves the army out of the storm on time or makes the player pop a storm in a wrong place by tricking him. there are pro's and cons, but in the grand scheme of things Psi Storm is the least of the problems in the beta,
|
On March 22 2010 02:29 Windblade wrote: @micronesia
or maybe you can read between the lines, but ill spell it out for you
the first half was serious, the bottom was not, it's called sarcasm
I also said buff A BIT, meaning a buff wouldn't be bad, but then again its not very crucial or necessary as far as i can see. In regards to avoiding it, i see plenty of games where the player moves the army out of the storm on time or makes the player pop a storm in a wrong place by tricking him. there are pro's and cons, but in the grand scheme of things Psi Storm is the least of the problems in the beta,
Did you see my post about 'buffing' it technically and 'nerfing' it gameplay wise? Also not a good idea to talk in the manner you do with a well known TL poster.
|
United States24345 Posts
On March 22 2010 02:09 Chen wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 01:52 micronesia wrote:On March 22 2010 01:49 da_head wrote: if anything, storm is way to weak. collosus just dish out so much more damage Collosus are in fact very strong but it isn't that difficult to counter them if you have the right units and control them correctly (which I mess up sometimes :p) Just get some vikings and abuse their range while avoiding engaging the protoss as much as you can. There doesn't seem to be a hard counter to storm. The only argument I've heard which should really be discussed is exactly the nature of EMP vs storm. da_head like those before you you made a claim (storm is way too weak) without providing any justification whatsoever. I'm trying to weed that out of this discussion so that something can actually be accomplished but it doesn't seem to be working. why do we need a hard-counter to every fucking unit/spell in the game? OMFGWTF ______ IS OP I NEED HARD-COUNTER TO MAKE MY LIFE EASY was there a hard-counter to storm in sc1? no, you just lived with the fact that its a strong spell and you did your best to dodge it. people complained about op colossus early on, then found out how to spread units to minimize damage, dont see why its not different here. dont stick 50 low-hp units in 1 control group, if you use 3-4+ like in SC1, a storm or two wont decimate your entire army. No you don't actually need a hard counter to everything and I apologize for making it sound like I meant that. I haven't noticed people 'spreading' units a certain way to minimize damage from colossus like you described though... maybe you could show what you mean here.
The whole 'one control group' argument is valid for very early in the game when there's 1-2 colossus vs mostly just MM and a ghost or two. But as the game goes on you are gonna be clumped up (especially with this map pool) regardless of what control group scheme you use (edit: one storm per control group would seem like prime targets to me :p). Also, it's tough to make too many hotkeys of MM later on since you need a separate one for each of several other units since spells often get lost with unit combos in the same group. I'm spoiled that I'm using hotkeys for all of my macro right now though... but my macro is so sick compared to sc1 :p
On March 22 2010 02:31 G.s)NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 02:29 Windblade wrote: @micronesia
or maybe you can read between the lines, but ill spell it out for you
the first half was serious, the bottom was not, it's called sarcasm
I also said buff A BIT, meaning a buff wouldn't be bad, but then again its not very crucial or necessary as far as i can see. In regards to avoiding it, i see plenty of games where the player moves the army out of the storm on time or makes the player pop a storm in a wrong place by tricking him. there are pro's and cons, but in the grand scheme of things Psi Storm is the least of the problems in the beta,
Did you see my post about 'buffing' it technically and 'nerfing' it gameplay wise? Also not a good idea to talk in the manner you do with a well known TL poster. It doesn't bother me when the rude guy clearly isn't making sense. Does he really think I thought he was serious about the hybrid stuff. Also, does he know what sarcasm actually is? These are questions I doubt he can answer in a calm manner without going on the attack and making himself look like a bigger fool.
|
On March 22 2010 01:52 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 01:49 da_head wrote: if anything, storm is way to weak. collosus just dish out so much more damage Collosus are in fact very strong but it isn't that difficult to counter them if you have the right units and control them correctly (which I mess up sometimes :p) Just get some vikings and abuse their range while avoiding engaging the protoss as much as you can. There doesn't seem to be a hard counter to storm. The only argument I've heard which should really be discussed is exactly the nature of EMP vs storm. da_head like those before you you made a claim (storm is way too weak) without providing any justification whatsoever. I'm trying to weed that out of this discussion so that something can actually be accomplished but it doesn't seem to be working.
what justification do you need..? ok fine, let me waste my time spelling it out for you. firstly, going templar tech means you have to skip out on: obs and immortals. (in exchange for getting charge, which isn't really beneficial early on, and blink which is pretty useless at this point) secondly: storm does 80 damage in a small radius. collosus does 46 in a line PER attack. yes it's true that collosi get hard countered (sigh) by vikings, but i think the same can be said for high templars and ghosts (emp + snipe). the only benefit storm has over collosus is that you can hit air units with it.
|
Don't you dare nerf storm more.
Do you not realize that EMP is literally instantaneous and therefore LITERALLY impossible to dodge, unlike storm?
I once played a terran that hovered his army at the edge of his range and just kited my entire army (even with charge) because templar are so slow, so I could never land a solid storm that he wasn't already moving out of and therefore would do more damage to my zealots than to his marauders/marines/etc.
|
I think the reason storm seems harder to dodge because one of the classic "let me micro out of this storm or I'm going to die units"....the hydra, is now a lot slower than it used to be. In fact from a zerg standpoint, but the roach and hydra are slower than the SCI hydra counterpart (I believe the roach still is after speed upgrade but I could easily be wrong on that one).
From that standpoint, I agree that hydra can't micro out of storm as well, they simply aren't as mobile. But on the other hand, I don't think storm is overpowered, for all the hydra I kill with it there always seem to be dozens more.
Terran have it a bit easier, with stim their army is very mobile, and gets healed as it moves. Also marines have more durability now and can survive storm longer.
|
Taiwan619 Posts
can we get rid of stalkers. they're really imba.
|
On March 22 2010 03:07 Karas wrote: I think the reason storm seems harder to dodge because one of the classic "let me micro out of this storm or I'm going to die units"....the hydra, is now a lot slower than it used to be. In fact from a zerg standpoint, but the roach and hydra are slower than the SCI hydra counterpart (I believe the roach still is after speed upgrade but I could easily be wrong on that one).
From that standpoint, I agree that hydra can't micro out of storm as well, they simply aren't as mobile. But on the other hand, I don't think storm is overpowered, for all the hydra I kill with it there always seem to be dozens more.
Terran have it a bit easier, with stim their army is very mobile, and gets healed as it moves. Also marines have more durability now and can survive storm longer.
First off I'd be willing to bet money the roach is faster, especially if you drop creep all over the map like every good zerg I play does.
Secondly if you have the tier 3 regen upgrade for roaches storm shouldn't even be a big deal for them if you're even remotely trying to dodge.
|
United States24345 Posts
On March 22 2010 02:52 da_head wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 01:52 micronesia wrote:On March 22 2010 01:49 da_head wrote: if anything, storm is way to weak. collosus just dish out so much more damage Collosus are in fact very strong but it isn't that difficult to counter them if you have the right units and control them correctly (which I mess up sometimes :p) Just get some vikings and abuse their range while avoiding engaging the protoss as much as you can. There doesn't seem to be a hard counter to storm. The only argument I've heard which should really be discussed is exactly the nature of EMP vs storm. da_head like those before you you made a claim (storm is way too weak) without providing any justification whatsoever. I'm trying to weed that out of this discussion so that something can actually be accomplished but it doesn't seem to be working. what justification do you need..? ok fine, let me waste my time spelling it out for you. firstly, going templar tech means you have to skip out on: obs and immortals. (in exchange for getting charge, which isn't really beneficial early on, and blink which is pretty useless at this point) secondly: storm does 80 damage in a small radius. collosus does 46 in a line PER attack. yes it's true that collosi get hard countered (sigh) by vikings, but i think the same can be said for high templars and ghosts (emp + snipe). the only benefit storm has over collosus is that you can hit air units with it. Let me waste my time spelling it out for you? Really? You make a claim that is highly controversial right now with no explanation whatsoever and when I point this out you act like the explanation you proceed to give is pure fact agreed on by everyone. If you think colossus are 5x better then fine and thank you for explaining it. I don't consider ghost a hard counter to templar though since a way hasn't been found to prevent templar from being worthwhile (although it's in the works obviously).
On March 22 2010 03:07 Karas wrote: Terran have it a bit easier, with stim their army is very mobile, and gets healed as it moves. Also marines have more durability now and can survive storm longer. Stimmed marines won't have time to get out before they die most of the time, and if half or 3/4 make it out they are in the red and it takes too long for them all to get healed up again before the battle proceeds even if you have a good number of medivacs. Your only chance is to start moving as the storm is just about to begin and then you can avoid a fair amount of damage and possibly pass it on to the chargelots.
On March 22 2010 03:01 -orb- wrote: Don't you dare nerf storm more.
Do you not realize that EMP is literally instantaneous and therefore LITERALLY impossible to dodge, unlike storm?
I once played a terran that hovered his army at the edge of his range and just kited my entire army (even with charge) because templar are so slow, so I could never land a solid storm that he wasn't already moving out of and therefore would do more damage to my zealots than to his marauders/marines/etc. I'd love to see that game. Still, the emp may cast quickly but being in a position to cast it on the templar before the templar can cast several storms is often very difficult. Try playing a lot of tvp and you'll see it's often impossible/nearly to prevent storms.
|
On March 22 2010 03:01 -orb- wrote: Don't you dare nerf storm more.
Do you not realize that EMP is literally instantaneous and therefore LITERALLY impossible to dodge, unlike storm?
I once played a terran that hovered his army at the edge of his range and just kited my entire army (even with charge) because templar are so slow, so I could never land a solid storm that he wasn't already moving out of and therefore would do more damage to my zealots than to his marauders/marines/etc. Lol, arent you the guy who said that storm is too strong and that ghost needs to one shot snipe templars..
|
On March 22 2010 03:56 iounas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 03:01 -orb- wrote: Don't you dare nerf storm more.
Do you not realize that EMP is literally instantaneous and therefore LITERALLY impossible to dodge, unlike storm?
I once played a terran that hovered his army at the edge of his range and just kited my entire army (even with charge) because templar are so slow, so I could never land a solid storm that he wasn't already moving out of and therefore would do more damage to my zealots than to his marauders/marines/etc. Lol, arent you the guy who said that storm is too strong and that ghost needs to one shot snipe templars..
Go back and actually read my thread.
I am so tired of you people reading the title of my threads and not the actual OP and then telling me I said stuff I didn't say.
Reading is hard work.
For the record my thread was about the balance between sniper shot and feedback and had nothing to do with storm. I also didn't go out and say "such and such is imbalanced!" I was asking for discussion on the matter to learn more peoples' opinions and see if other people had ideas I hadn't thought of to fix the issue.
|
On March 22 2010 03:58 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 03:56 iounas wrote:On March 22 2010 03:01 -orb- wrote: Don't you dare nerf storm more.
Do you not realize that EMP is literally instantaneous and therefore LITERALLY impossible to dodge, unlike storm?
I once played a terran that hovered his army at the edge of his range and just kited my entire army (even with charge) because templar are so slow, so I could never land a solid storm that he wasn't already moving out of and therefore would do more damage to my zealots than to his marauders/marines/etc. Lol, arent you the guy who said that storm is too strong and that ghost needs to one shot snipe templars.. Go back and actually read my thread. I am so tired of you people reading the title of my threads and not the actual OP and then telling me I said stuff I didn't say. Reading is hard work. For the record my thread was about the balance between sniper shot and feedback and had nothing to do with storm. I also didn't go out and say "such and such is imbalanced!" I was asking for discussion on the matter to learn more peoples' opinions and see if other people had ideas I hadn't thought of to fix the issue. Whatever.. Why would you need "balance" between feedback and snipe when ghosts can already disable templars and do 100 area damage at the same time and instantly..and ghost can cloak and call down nukes and have an attack of their own while templar just floats helplessly.. Storm isnt the problem but the problem is whatever makes terran go bio against a race that has perfect counter to massing t1 units.. Storm should be a bit stronger.. Same dps but increased time..although that might not be stronger if they pull out and you chase trough storm..
|
On March 22 2010 04:12 iounas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 03:58 -orb- wrote:On March 22 2010 03:56 iounas wrote:On March 22 2010 03:01 -orb- wrote: Don't you dare nerf storm more.
Do you not realize that EMP is literally instantaneous and therefore LITERALLY impossible to dodge, unlike storm?
I once played a terran that hovered his army at the edge of his range and just kited my entire army (even with charge) because templar are so slow, so I could never land a solid storm that he wasn't already moving out of and therefore would do more damage to my zealots than to his marauders/marines/etc. Lol, arent you the guy who said that storm is too strong and that ghost needs to one shot snipe templars.. Go back and actually read my thread. I am so tired of you people reading the title of my threads and not the actual OP and then telling me I said stuff I didn't say. Reading is hard work. For the record my thread was about the balance between sniper shot and feedback and had nothing to do with storm. I also didn't go out and say "such and such is imbalanced!" I was asking for discussion on the matter to learn more peoples' opinions and see if other people had ideas I hadn't thought of to fix the issue. Whatever.. Why would you need "balance" between feedback and snipe when ghosts can already disable templars and do 100 area damage at the same time and instantly..and ghost can cloak and call down nukes and have an attack of their own while templar just floats helplessly.. Storm isnt the problem but the problem is whatever makes terran go bio against a race that has perfect counter to massing t1 units.. Storm should be a bit stronger..
OH MY GOD STOP QUESTIONING IT, GO READ THE OP FFS
Why would you keep trying to argue like you know everything I'd have to say and everything the thread would have to say when you haven't even read it?!
I hate people like you so much, it's like you think this forum is purely for you to spew your vast knowledge all over the rest of us rather than ever read what other people have to say or discuss these things with other people.
Not that this rant will have any affect on you, you've clearly made up your mind without having any idea what you're talking about whatsoever.
|
It's actually pretty ridiculous how EMP is an instant spell, literally not possible to dodge, and HSM is also an instant damage nuke (literally a fucking nuke, god) and yet there are terrans who demand that a spell thats already easy to dodge to do even less damage? really?
|
On March 22 2010 04:15 -orb- wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 04:12 iounas wrote:On March 22 2010 03:58 -orb- wrote:On March 22 2010 03:56 iounas wrote:On March 22 2010 03:01 -orb- wrote: Don't you dare nerf storm more.
Do you not realize that EMP is literally instantaneous and therefore LITERALLY impossible to dodge, unlike storm?
I once played a terran that hovered his army at the edge of his range and just kited my entire army (even with charge) because templar are so slow, so I could never land a solid storm that he wasn't already moving out of and therefore would do more damage to my zealots than to his marauders/marines/etc. Lol, arent you the guy who said that storm is too strong and that ghost needs to one shot snipe templars.. Go back and actually read my thread. I am so tired of you people reading the title of my threads and not the actual OP and then telling me I said stuff I didn't say. Reading is hard work. For the record my thread was about the balance between sniper shot and feedback and had nothing to do with storm. I also didn't go out and say "such and such is imbalanced!" I was asking for discussion on the matter to learn more peoples' opinions and see if other people had ideas I hadn't thought of to fix the issue. Whatever.. Why would you need "balance" between feedback and snipe when ghosts can already disable templars and do 100 area damage at the same time and instantly..and ghost can cloak and call down nukes and have an attack of their own while templar just floats helplessly.. Storm isnt the problem but the problem is whatever makes terran go bio against a race that has perfect counter to massing t1 units.. Storm should be a bit stronger.. OH MY GOD STOP QUESTIONING IT, GO READ THE OP FFS Why would you keep trying to argue like you know everything I'd have to say and everything the thread would have to say when you haven't even read it?! I hate people like you so much, it's like you think this forum is purely for you to spew your vast knowledge all over the rest of us rather than ever read what other people have to say or discuss these things with other people. Not that this rant will have any affect on you, you've clearly made up your mind without having any idea what you're talking about whatsoever.
Hi Orb! I love your stream and I think you're a great player with a very analytical mind. That being said, I think you should calm down and feel some love for your fellow TLers! Not everyone will agree with you, and of those people who disagree, most (because of your vast intelligence) will not be able to match you in terms of logic, wit, or even reading comprehension! But maybe the best way to get through to them is with hugs!
That being said, I agree with:
Storm isnt the problem but the problem is whatever makes terran go bio against a race that has perfect counter to massing t1 units...
Storm is no stronger than it was in BW, it's just that the unit composition that T continues to opt for rolls over and dies to it! Why not make other unit compositions more attractive? I might also be a complete idiot though so don't get mad at me orb!
|
United States24345 Posts
On March 22 2010 04:22 TheAntZ wrote: It's actually pretty ridiculous how EMP is an instant spell, literally not possible to dodge, and HSM is also an instant damage nuke (literally a fucking nuke, god) and yet there are terrans who demand that a spell thats already easy to dodge to do even less damage? really? Congratulations. You are poster number 34 in this thread who takes a potentially viable point and tacks onto it a complaint about the other people rather than just their ideas which you clearly are attempting to refute.
Does emp do the same damage to the core protoss army as storm does to terran? That's obviously a question to address. Also heat seeking missile might warrant its own discussion but I honestly haven't used it much yet so I'm not going to disagree with you about it's possible strength or even imbalance.
Emp won't wipe out the core of the protoss army but storm definitely can wipe out a huge % of the MM almost instantly if good storms are cast on to clumped (stimmed?) units on tight maps. It's a question of how capable terrans will become of minimizing damage from storms and getting of effective EMPs. I'm writing this while listening to day9 so I might not be totally coherent sorry lol
|
On March 22 2010 04:24 love1another wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 04:15 -orb- wrote:On March 22 2010 04:12 iounas wrote:On March 22 2010 03:58 -orb- wrote:On March 22 2010 03:56 iounas wrote:On March 22 2010 03:01 -orb- wrote: Don't you dare nerf storm more.
Do you not realize that EMP is literally instantaneous and therefore LITERALLY impossible to dodge, unlike storm?
I once played a terran that hovered his army at the edge of his range and just kited my entire army (even with charge) because templar are so slow, so I could never land a solid storm that he wasn't already moving out of and therefore would do more damage to my zealots than to his marauders/marines/etc. Lol, arent you the guy who said that storm is too strong and that ghost needs to one shot snipe templars.. Go back and actually read my thread. I am so tired of you people reading the title of my threads and not the actual OP and then telling me I said stuff I didn't say. Reading is hard work. For the record my thread was about the balance between sniper shot and feedback and had nothing to do with storm. I also didn't go out and say "such and such is imbalanced!" I was asking for discussion on the matter to learn more peoples' opinions and see if other people had ideas I hadn't thought of to fix the issue. Whatever.. Why would you need "balance" between feedback and snipe when ghosts can already disable templars and do 100 area damage at the same time and instantly..and ghost can cloak and call down nukes and have an attack of their own while templar just floats helplessly.. Storm isnt the problem but the problem is whatever makes terran go bio against a race that has perfect counter to massing t1 units.. Storm should be a bit stronger.. OH MY GOD STOP QUESTIONING IT, GO READ THE OP FFS Why would you keep trying to argue like you know everything I'd have to say and everything the thread would have to say when you haven't even read it?! I hate people like you so much, it's like you think this forum is purely for you to spew your vast knowledge all over the rest of us rather than ever read what other people have to say or discuss these things with other people. Not that this rant will have any affect on you, you've clearly made up your mind without having any idea what you're talking about whatsoever. Hi Orb! I love your stream and I think you're a great player with a very analytical mind. That being said, I think you should calm down and feel some love for your fellow TLers! Not everyone will agree with you, and of those people who disagree, most (because of your vast intelligence) will not be able to match you in terms of logic, wit, or even reading comprehension! But maybe the best way to get through to them is with hugs! That being said, I agree with: Show nested quote + Storm isnt the problem but the problem is whatever makes terran go bio against a race that has perfect counter to massing t1 units...
Storm is no stronger than it was in BW, it's just that the unit composition that T continues to opt for rolls over and dies to it! Why not make other unit compositions more attractive? I might also be a complete idiot though so don't get mad at me orb!
I wasn't mad at him for not agreeing with me (he didn't even know what my view was so how could he not agree with it?), I was mad at him for assuming he knew exactly what my viewpoint was without even reading what I had written in that thread.
|
p is yet to weak and u want to nerf it more LOL
storm buff plz not nerf tread poster no idea how hard it is to win with storms in sc2 xD
|
On March 22 2010 04:22 TheAntZ wrote: It's actually pretty ridiculous how EMP is an instant spell, literally not possible to dodge, and HSM is also an instant damage nuke (literally a fucking nuke, god) and yet there are terrans who demand that a spell thats already easy to dodge to do even less damage? really?
How is HSM instant? First of all you can see what unit is being the target of the HSM. Secondly its slow and will fall harmlessly to the ground if you run away from it for 5 seconds-_-; Also please don't talk about the HSM in a thread thats about Storm.
|
If anything it deals damage too slowly. You are just bad at micro I think. I see good Zerg juke storm and micro out of storm plenty. Given storms huge tech cost and how long it takes to get it, your complaints are totally off the mark
|
Feedback outranges emp so shut the newb qqing about emp off please
|
United States24345 Posts
On March 22 2010 04:49 Louder wrote: Feedback outranges emp so shut the newb qqing about emp off please Louder do you see good terran being able to dodge/prevent storms well enough to not get destroyed, especially on tighter maps? Every p I talk to says how easy it is but I haven't seen/done it that much :p
|
On March 22 2010 04:53 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 04:49 Louder wrote: Feedback outranges emp so shut the newb qqing about emp off please Louder do you see good terran being able to dodge/prevent storms well enough to not get destroyed, especially on tighter maps? Every p I talk to says how easy it is but I haven't seen/done it that much :p
If you don't get destroyed in defence / open field as Terran, you'll get destroyed in offence when Protoss has tight chokes (Lost Temple) where he can spawn high templars that can storm instantly with their energy upgrade.
Pretty much my experience, Terran needs to pull a miracle in micro. I'm not saying storm is overpowered to begin with, but its mechanic should change as I pointed out on page 3.
|
Banshees are good at sniping temps. Otherwise it's hard in tight spots as it should be. Killing such a high cost high tech unit as a ht or colossus should be hard jus like it's hard foe p to deal with ravens and banshees IMO. I do think chronology boost almost breaks p as badly as queens break z but that's another topic
|
No. Although Blizzard could actually increase the storm damage, but increase the storm effect from 3 to 4 seconds also.
I think its quite balanced as it is, and Colossus is a lot more viable currently than any storm.
|
if i ever lose a game to a protoss that uses psi storm i guess i'll start to worry about it...
we've already established that zealots, immortals, collossi, high templar, scvs, marauders, marines, medivacs, roaches, hydralisk, banelings, mutalisk, broodlords, carriers, the mothership, the corruptor, the banshee, and the command center are overpowered units. personally i think we should just remove them all
|
On March 22 2010 05:18 Failsafe wrote: if i ever lose a game to a protoss that uses psi storm i guess i'll start to worry about it...
we've already established that zealots, immortals, collossi, high templar, scvs, marauders, marines, medivacs, roaches, hydralisk, banelings, mutalisk, broodlords, carriers, the mothership, the corruptor, the banshee, and the command center are overpowered units. personally i think we should just remove them all Then it would be StalkerCraft 2...
|
United States24345 Posts
On March 22 2010 05:07 member1987 wrote: No. Although Blizzard could actually increase the storm damage, but increase the storm effect from 3 to 4 seconds also.
I think its quite balanced as it is, and Colossus is a lot more viable currently than any storm. Changing the duration of storm is certainly one proposed idea. You are entitled to feel that colossus is much more viable, but I have no idea why you think that storm isn't effective. From what I've seen it is.
On March 22 2010 05:18 Failsafe wrote: if i ever lose a game to a protoss that uses psi storm i guess i'll start to worry about it...
we've already established that zealots, immortals, collossi, high templar, scvs, marauders, marines, medivacs, roaches, hydralisk, banelings, mutalisk, broodlords, carriers, the mothership, the corruptor, the banshee, and the command center are overpowered units. personally i think we should just remove them all You are either an amazing player or you haven't played many high-level protoss players who choose to use storm (or even weaker players if they get a few good storms off). In the process of discussing how to deal with things our opponent did that hurt us we are going to talk about the ways in which it seems like we can't come up with a viable solution. This is going to of course happen with most units since they are all still new to us. To imply that we shouldn't discuss our problems with storm because we've had problems with many other units is silly. Either add to the discussion by helping us non protoss how to deal with storm, or by explaining ways in which we can't deal with storm effectively. Just complaining about our choice of discussion makes no sense when you can leave the thread without posting.
|
On March 22 2010 04:49 Louder wrote: Feedback outranges emp so shut the newb qqing about emp off please You're going to have medivacs anyways, so stim a marauder a few times to drain 1 of your medivac's energy, then plop the ghost in there. Can't be feedback sniped and toss has shit AA so there's next to zero way the medivac will die before your ghost drops and his entire tech choice is made useless.
Toss can do the same thing with warps; load a few templar, drop em for storm, then deploy and use warp-in for another 4 templar for rape: the second coming.
All comes down to who's going to out-micro the other party which is far more suspenseful and interesting to watch (and play) than just a moving all your shit up.
I think the current EMP/Feedback balance has the potential to be spot on once players ramp it up.
|
United States24345 Posts
On March 22 2010 05:45 L wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 04:49 Louder wrote: Feedback outranges emp so shut the newb qqing about emp off please You're going to have medivacs anyways, so stim a marauder a few times to drain 1 of your medivac's energy, then plop the ghost in there. Can't be feedback sniped and toss has shit AA so there's next to zero way the medivac will die before your ghost drops and his entire tech choice is made useless. Toss can do the same thing with warps; load a few templar, drop em for storm, then deploy and use warp-in for another 4 templar for rape: the second coming. All comes down to who's going to out-micro the other party which is far more suspenseful and interesting to watch (and play) than just a moving all your shit up. I think the current EMP/Feedback balance has the potential to be spot on once players ramp it up. While the ghost can't be sniped in that situation... can't the templar get off storms before the ghost can be dropped and cast a good emp? The medivac can also still get picked off by stalker/sentry/etc
|
Balanced or not. I would like: Increase to larger AOE. Increase to longer duration. And maybe maintain or lower DPS a little? More micro fun. ^^
|
I think storm should have a longer duration and less DPS but more damage in total, like 7 sec, 105 damage or something like that. Increasing the hitbox of the units so they won't clump as much can help too. In SC1, the limit on storm is execution, it is difficult to lay down a blanket of storms and to dodge them as well. In SC2, I feel it is easier to cast storms than to dodge or prevent them.
|
+1. I agree, storm definitely does need to be re-balanced. (Apart from the damage)
|
the whole muta->storm deal makes zvppvz hilariously odd. its like if you didnt shut toss out with muta and took out the entire map you wouldnt stand a chance. its the invertedly correlated mutual imbalance!
|
On March 22 2010 04:27 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 04:22 TheAntZ wrote: It's actually pretty ridiculous how EMP is an instant spell, literally not possible to dodge, and HSM is also an instant damage nuke (literally a fucking nuke, god) and yet there are terrans who demand that a spell thats already easy to dodge to do even less damage? really? Congratulations. You are poster number 34 in this thread who takes a potentially viable point and tacks onto it a complaint about the other people rather than just their ideas which you clearly are attempting to refute. Does emp do the same damage to the core protoss army as storm does to terran? That's obviously a question to address. Also heat seeking missile might warrant its own discussion but I honestly haven't used it much yet so I'm not going to disagree with you about it's possible strength or even imbalance. Emp won't wipe out the core of the protoss army but storm definitely can wipe out a huge % of the MM almost instantly if good storms are cast on to clumped (stimmed?) units on tight maps. It's a question of how capable terrans will become of minimizing damage from storms and getting of effective EMPs. I'm writing this while listening to day9 so I might not be totally coherent sorry lol
Ok, I'll try to be more coherent @ the bolded part, yes, a well placed EMP hurts the toss army almost as much as a well placed storm hurts the terran bio army. This is because the protoss relies on sentry to reduce the damage done to his army, that shield is negated. Protoss shields are gone. This leaves the toss army extremely vulnerable, as does a storm to a terran army that has moved out of a storm, but took some of the damage. Storm only wipes out an army if you fight in a choke, or if you arent fast enough to dodge it. I've played plenty of games where the terran would emp some of my army, and then engage in hit and run, letting his mauraders slow some of my forces, and using stim to keep running out of range of a good storm. if you just engage and let them blob up, a storm will devastate your army, but thats the same as a zvp in sc1 with hydra against zeal/temp, however in sc1 zerg didnt have the ability to kite the entire toss army QUITE as well as the MMM ball can with stim. Try using this, i GUARANTEE you will see good results, this kind of micro always makes it very hard to cast storms that do any damage
On March 22 2010 04:45 G.s)NarutO wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2010 04:22 TheAntZ wrote: It's actually pretty ridiculous how EMP is an instant spell, literally not possible to dodge, and HSM is also an instant damage nuke (literally a fucking nuke, god) and yet there are terrans who demand that a spell thats already easy to dodge to do even less damage? really? How is HSM instant? First of all you can see what unit is being the target of the HSM. Secondly its slow and will fall harmlessly to the ground if you run away from it for 5 seconds-_-; Also please don't talk about the HSM in a thread thats about Storm.
When I said instant I meant it isnt Damage over time. Also, its not really that easy to dodge for most units, only the moderately fast ones. And most of your units will be snails after getting shat on by mauraders anyway xD
|
i would like for storm to have longer duration so that its more dodgeable and not instant damage. Also a buff would be nice to go with it. However, if u say storm is imba then collossi are crazy imba. Theres no good reason to go templar instead of collossi, at least thats the way i see it. I mean, your gonna get obs anyway right? so why not just keep using the investment of the robo? If u make templar you STILLL need robo for obs. Thats just a lot of gas imo. Ive used templar successfully many times, but i always think that had i gone collossi i would've done even better.
In BW you would go templar because of the crazy damage and because it's much more controlable than reavers. Plus if enemy went muta you could make a couple of archons with ur army. PLUS! if you wanted to try and sneak a DT, you also had that option. NOW they made it so that the reaver has become this more mobile and more controllable unit that can avoid damage by staying in the back of your army with its sweet range. Templar damage has been nerfed and archons suck ass with no splash. OH and also you need a seperate building if you want to go DTs. going templar just seems a lot less flexible now.
anybody else feel this way?
Oh and im platinum by the way, just so that people dont say that im talking completely out my ass.
|
On March 22 2010 08:15 pzea469 wrote: i would like for storm to have longer duration so that its more dodgeable and not instant damage. Also a buff would be nice to go with it. However, if u say storm is imba then collossi are crazy imba. Theres no good reason to go templar instead of collossi, at least thats the way i see it. I mean, your gonna get obs anyway right? so why not just keep using the investment of the robo? If u make templar you STILLL need robo for obs. Thats just a lot of gas imo. Ive used templar successfully many times, but i always think that had i gone collossi i would've done even better.
In BW you would go templar because of the crazy damage and because it's much more controlable than reavers. Plus if enemy went muta you could make a couple of archons with ur army. PLUS! if you wanted to try and sneak a DT, you also had that option. NOW they made it so that the reaver has become this more mobile and more controllable unit that can avoid damage by staying in the back of your army with its sweet range. Templar damage has been nerfed and archons suck ass with no splash. OH and also you need a seperate building if you want to go DTs. going templar just seems a lot less flexible now.
anybody else feel this way?
Oh and im platinum by the way, just so that people dont say that im talking completely out my ass.
You know, if they changed those two things, I wouldnt mind if storm was even worse then it is now. There needs to be a more juicy incentive for teching templar early on, instead of robo
|
There should be a minor <.5 second pre-storm animation with stormclouds right before it strikes.
|
On March 22 2010 08:45 hellokitty[hk] wrote: There should be a minor <.5 second pre-storm animation with stormclouds right before it strikes.
No? This would just remove intensity from the game and make things slower. Besides, if you're talking about amount of time you have to react, you could accomplish the exact same thing by introducing lan latency into SC2. 400ms latency like that of brood war before lan lat is ridiculous and IMO is a large part of what is causing people to think storm is a problem.
|
Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Theres too many idiots in this thread. My brain cant handle it.
|
|
|
|