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On January 07 2012 06:30 SeXyBaCk wrote:
It wasn't my intention to criticise or accuse anyone here. I was giving my (rather uninformed opinion) on this ... let's call it a lifestyle. I don't recall the details but I do recall the latest... philosophy is about controlling yourself and your own positivity/mood to get the desired effect with girls. Basically that is moving away completely from what can be taught as in behaviours or patterns/lines/moves to just a general lifestyle or attitude. Which makes a lot more sense to me, but I struggle to see how PUAs can continue to coach and give classes on this. How the business side of this can be maintained, and I don't think anyone should be fooled here, this is a business. People make a living with giving these seminars and selling videos and books. Remember Tom Cruise on Magnolia? To me it looks like the whole movement is going in a new age, or buddhist-like direction and away from the I can teach you 10 ways to get a girls number in 10 minutes.
It's okay. It is a lifestyle I'd say, but only because you are improving your own life style. Look at it as an augmentation. You can really tell a lot of the good PUA advice from the bad directly based on that alone; the good ones will advocate developing other aspects of your life first and using this as a boost, I guess. The good from the great, and great from amazing is a little bit harder.
But I'm not going to lie; a lot of PU advice is bullshit. I think it was RSD nations blueprint that went for a few hundred dollars on a book? Yeah. You know that is just crap.
A lot of it is going on new age because it is hard to identify as a man in a post-feminism culture here in America. At least, I think it is.
I think if you a positive person in a good mood feeling good about yourself you will appear a lot more approachable and interesting, not only to women but people in general. We all should work on our attitude. Attitude is everything.Towards our work or education, our lovelife, our families and friends. It's so self explicatory no? I don't see why you need to pay someone to make a conscious effort to make your attitude and outlook on life more positive. Since to me it feels entirely internal. I actually see an ethical conflict here, in terms of the spirit of helping other guys get girls and running a business of sorts. Ok..what am i talking about, I'm a physician and charge money while supposedly helping people. One doesn't exclude the other, but then again I am liable if I screw up, while I doubt some dating coach is liable if I don't get laid within 30 days of taking the class right? Doctors and lawyers justify their reimbursement (for what should be a service to humanity) by being morally and legally accountable. Not looking to get caught up with professional ethics here though. But there is that ethical rule that when you sell help, you're obliged to the best, or at least your best. And the whole thing is heavily regulated and quality controlled.
I'll just ignore the ethics of it, since it is kind of an iffy thing.
I agree, you will appear a lot more approachable and interesting if you give off a positive vibe. But a lot of what this is about isn't waiting for the opportunity. It is about going out and getting them, making the opportunities. You won't get very far just waiting for things to fall into place. And what better way to do this than to work on social skills?
Now, just because you don't understand how these guys need to pay, or have a coach, or have the community out there to help them go and do it, doesn't mean that it should automatically be filed as... not worthwhile I guess? You might not understand how people can go into major depressions, swing from chandeliers naked in a hotel while their having a mania episode (bipolar), or why a son can try to have sex with his mother. On a less extreme note, you might not understand how people can be have a foot fetish, or why some people are into some kinky, abusive stuff lol. That doesn't mean it should be disregarded and just slapped a "get better now" sticker on it and call it a day.
Besides that, some guys don't want to just be average at social interactions. I'm average, maybe even above average at it. I still want to get better. This is a way to do this. I only identify with the PU community in a very limited way, but I still like it and can understand a lot of the opinions (even if I disagree with the majority of them as well). Plus, I want to be able to go after what I want. This is another way to help me do this without question, ya dig?
+ Show Spoiler +I now have the youtube channel running in the background you mentioned. I don't know... I've only dated one american girl, my current gf but ... so I'm not that familiar with american culture but the girls in this video really seem they're being pushed, it's not natural. If you are really suprising and pushing you can get people do a lot of things you want them to do. This used in law inforcement often. Or in extreme situations. Giving orders is often much more effective that requesting someone to do something. But are these women going to consider this whole experience a good time in retrospect? They're all like oh oh..what oh... ok...wow this guy is too much he's steamrolling me. You can get really pushy and maybe get to make out or get laid, but I doubt you'll find that special connection or even go down as a positive memory for the woman by being bam bam bam intense. Women don't decide without seconds if they like you and want to sleep with you. Just writing this I think I've found one of the main problem the (at least old) pickup community might have. The guys are kinda geeky and academical right? You're making a cognitive effort, analysing collecting data, this suggest they're not airheads. The target girls always seem rather giggly and ditsy. Maybe it's the alcohol. I know for sure the last 3 girls I've dated would just stand and stare at some guy who comes up to talks to them like a waterfall without an introduction or an obvious reason why they approached. So even if you successfully hook up, it looks to me as if there will be a discrepancy between the guys intellect and the girls. And where can that go? Again, I'm assuming you're looking for a mate rather than a lay. My advice is don't become way too much of a smoothtalker, it's not natural. Women expect men to be flustered at times and nervous. They enjoy making you nervous.
I don't really want to get into this, since it'll raise both sides flags into some kind of war lol a man who gives orders is precieved as powerful. Powerful = sexy. Esp in most places around here; men are scared spineless in the culture we are in (I've been there), and just coast through life agreeing with women no matter what, not having boundaries, ect.
I agree with you completely; the old PUA style is way too focused on cognition and logical thinking. Women are emotional creatures. There was a debate a few pages back you can read. However, they do know pretty damn quickly whether or not they would have sex with you. You can live up to that, or you can't. That's the way I look at it at least. I'll give you a reference at the end of this post on who I follow, you can visit his website and maybe even pick up his book (it's 20 bucks.) if you like.
Also, I have yet to really watch a PU video. They're weird to me too but I don't want to waste my time sitting and watching a youtube video on some dude hitting on a chick.
Guess I'm still doubtful while surveying the supposed evidence. Though, I mean, if some guy is really...shy and has zero experience with girls, as in stutter mutter before spilling his drink and he goes to a class and gets taught to at least go up to girls and make them laugh a little, that's probably a long way to go for that guy, and sets him on his way to be more social in future, then who am I to be doubting the entire movement.
I see potential for pickup'ing to be helpful to some, but also see potential when taken too far can alienate you from the real world around you.
The whole bahaviour character debate is a philosophical one and too far fetching i feel for this forum. Why do we lock people up in prison for life if they can simply be fixed in a matter of a few months? Actually with that established, our society doesn't believe even behaviours can be effectively changed, no?
It can indeed help those shy mother truckers get into the life they've always wanted as long as they work for it. Just like a lot of things. It can also alienate you. I've had it happen to me as well; pressure to do something, chickening out because of this pressure (I've done this one, not the other one). Or even getting so deep into it, you're view of women as wonderful people has been turned into they're nothing but a machine. Instead of connections, they form something so shallow you can't even call it a relationship.
It can lead to interactions not being fun. I was at this point, and I didn't even have that much in field practice. I've been correcting it though It's a wonderful thing once you really want to look at women as wonderful people, finding who they are as a person is one of the most fulfilling things in the world to me. I've done it less than a handful of times, looking to expand that personally.
To be honest, you can easily lose a lot in PUA as well, at least in my opinion. And that has a lot to do with the business side of things. ---- As the person I referenced, I would check out Mark Mason over at Post Masculine . I think he is steering away from the pick up community of old. And I can't help but love the direction he is going. Creating a new "Pick up community", but really trying to define a new masculinity. Try and find his first article on the site. I think it is called "A New Masculinity" actually. That should explain a lot.
Again, I'd pick up his book. For $20 bucks, you can have one of my favorite books of all time Like I've said in here, I'd have a hard time describing it as anything but life changing, at least for me.
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Results and change are action based. Not reading based. You can read all the things in the world, but if your actions and behaviors done change, then you don't really get better at anything.
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ok guys. my second attempt to get this shit done... wish me luck. i need it! :D
@catch: blueprint was a 20 hour DVD set and it was pretty good. i also read a bit on postmasculine. good stuff too. i wonder if this is a criticism of RSD: http://postmasculine.com/state-is-overrated ... i never felt they actually put that much emphasize on state, even though it was the core explanation for why every woman will blast you off on some nights. other than that, tyler was more like "no matter how you feel, just go go go". how could that approach be bad? he also cured me of thinking that being fat means being cursed to loneliness. thanks brah.
i think postmasculine and RSD are pretty similar. i couldn't imagine any new PUA style being very different from RSD. and from what i've read on postmasculine, that seems to hold true.
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On January 07 2012 06:30 SeXyBaCk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 23:09 Catch wrote:
Behaviors are what define a persons character; if their behavior can be changed, then so can their character.
Also, the good PUA community realizes that only they are in control of themselves, and not the external environment. I'd research some more on the subject before you sprout these accusations in such a sweeping matter, esp. based on only a single person in this thread. It wasn't my intention to criticise or accuse anyone here. I was giving my (rather uninformed opinion) on this ... let's call it a lifestyle. I don't recall the details but I do recall the latest... philosophy is about controlling yourself and your own positivity/mood to get the desired effect with girls. Basically that is moving away completely from what can be taught as in behaviours or patterns/lines/moves to just a general lifestyle or attitude. Which makes a lot more sense to me, but I struggle to see how PUAs can continue to coach and give classes on this. How the business side of this can be maintained, and I don't think anyone should be fooled here, this is a business. People make a living with giving these seminars and selling videos and books. Remember Tom Cruise on Magnolia? To me it looks like the whole movement is going in a new age, or buddhist-like direction and away from the I can teach you 10 ways to get a girls number in 10 minutes. I think if you a positive person in a good mood feeling good about yourself you will appear a lot more approachable and interesting, not only to women but people in general. We all should work on our attitude. Attitude is everything.Towards our work or education, our lovelife, our families and friends. It's so self explicatory no? I don't see why you need to pay someone to make a conscious effort to make your attitude and outlook on life more positive. Since to me it feels entirely internal. I actually see an ethical conflict here, in terms of the spirit of helping other guys get girls and running a business of sorts. Ok..what am i talking about, I'm a physician and charge money while supposedly helping people. One doesn't exclude the other, but then again I am liable if I screw up, while I doubt some dating coach is liable if I don't get laid within 30 days of taking the class right? Doctors and lawyers justify their reimbursement (for what should be a service to humanity) by being morally and legally accountable. Not looking to get caught up with professional ethics here though. But there is that ethical rule that when you sell help, you're obliged to the best, or at least your best. And the whole thing is heavily regulated and quality controlled. I now have the youtube channel running in the background you mentioned. I don't know... I've only dated one american girl, my current gf but ... so I'm not that familiar with american culture but the girls in this video really seem they're being pushed, it's not natural. If you are really suprising and pushing you can get people do a lot of things you want them to do. This used in law inforcement often. Or in extreme situations. Giving orders is often much more effective that requesting someone to do something. But are these women going to consider this whole experience a good time in retrospect? They're all like oh oh..what oh... ok...wow this guy is too much he's steamrolling me. You can get really pushy and maybe get to make out or get laid, but I doubt you'll find that special connection or even go down as a positive memory for the woman by being bam bam bam intense. Women don't decide without seconds if they like you and want to sleep with you. Just writing this I think I've found one of the main problem the (at least old) pickup community might have. The guys are kinda geeky and academical right? You're making a cognitive effort, analysing collecting data, this suggest they're not airheads. The target girls always seem rather giggly and ditsy. Maybe it's the alcohol. I know for sure the last 3 girls I've dated would just stand and stare at some guy who comes up to talks to them like a waterfall without an introduction or an obvious reason why they approached. So even if you successfully hook up, it looks to me as if there will be a discrepancy between the guys intellect and the girls. And where can that go? Again, I'm assuming you're looking for a mate rather than a lay. My advice is don't become way too much of a smoothtalker, it's not natural. Women expect men to be flustered at times and nervous. They enjoy making you nervous. Guess I'm still doubtful while surveying the supposed evidence. Though, I mean, if some guy is really...shy and has zero experience with girls, as in stutter mutter before spilling his drink and he goes to a class and gets taught to at least go up to girls and make them laugh a little, that's probably a long way to go for that guy, and sets him on his way to be more social in future, then who am I to be doubting the entire movement. I see potential for pickup'ing to be helpful to some, but also see potential when taken too far can alienate you from the real world around you. The whole bahaviour character debate is a philosophical one and too far fetching i feel for this forum. Why do we lock people up in prison for life if they can simply be fixed in a matter of a few months? Actually with that established, our society doesn't believe even behaviours can be effectively changed, no?
'aight, welcome to my territory.
You're asking how the hell coaching should work and why it makes sense to pay someone to "make your attitude and outlook on life more positive since it all seems internal to you" and why the hell it is not standard to "fix people quickly in a matter of months".
You don't pay a coach to make your attitude on life more positive, you pay a coach to show you that your attitude was positive all along.
A strong coach, keep in mind I'm not neccesarily applying this concept to pickup specifically even though it works just as well there, will find ways to make the so called "limiting beliefs" explode. He will find ways to help you understand how you think and why you think this way. He will find ways to help you solve (somehow) "traumatic" experiences and helps you looking at them in a positive light. You pay him for helping you understand parts of yourself you didn't know about. Think about a strong coach as someone who shows you which parts of your behaviour does what and why and shows you how to adjust it so that it works the way you want it to. It is NOT his job to somehow magically "recreate your personality". That's not a coach, thats a scientology priest.
Why it is not standard to "fix people quickly", this includes some of the techniques common in good PUA coachings Disclaimer: obvious revorant (tm) aka long. >_<
The people who I consider strong when it comes to coaching stuff like social skills, helping with anxieties, changing behavioural patterns etc. all have rather (at first) unorthodox methods and procedures. The "official science" that is done in this area is, excuse me, utterly stupid. If I can learn how to fix peoples arachnophobia or fear of heights with less than 5h of work in the absolutely uber cases (I'm talking about trying to hide on the opposite wall of a spider here and the person not remembering when it started to get this bad), am able to teach others my process of thinking on the subject and see them achieve the same result on other people... I don't accept a psychologist who calls my method stupid and inefficient.
You said you're studying to become a physician. You should know best that what's being told to you in your study are basics established about 30 years ago. Stuff that was incredibly new 10 years ago gets sold to you as new right now. The field of psychology is even worse from my experience. Have you ever seen how a freshly finished psychologist does his sessions or how he talks during a seminar? I have.
The entire concept of "rapport" seems to be unknown to most. The whole concept of a "god in white" who asks questions which you answer to is not efficient enough to change behaviors quickly. Exposure therapy as a main concept to treat anxieties is for example simply out-dated and not efficient. I've had people come to me, a nerd about this topic who at that time didn't even have his NLP master, after having received 3+ months of professional treatment and a day with me their anxieties were gone. I have yet to have someone complain about falling back into his old patterns.
Okay, so now you're probably asking LOL IF THIS STUFF IS SO GOOD WHY DOESNT EVERY PSYCHOTHERAPY INCLUDE IT LOL?!??!
a) The established methods when it comes psychology or rather psychotherapy are pretty damn foolproof. Every retard can do an exposure therapy properly. Every retard with a "Dr." in front of his name can try to question a pedophile and hope he get's a statement out of him. (I'm citing this case because there was a pretty fun case where they needed a confession desperately since evidence was lacking. The dude who got the confession was pretty much a deskworker with no degree but a cool idea. He walked in, turned the camera off and said to the accused "Wow, those little sluts wanted it that way, right?" - that's how someone who knows how people work gets the job done. That is how you build rapport with someone who never got approval of his behaviour before. That is how you make him talk and get a confession out of him and get him into jail.)
If you fuck up with e.g. the more common NLP methods against anxiety you either get no result at all or, worst case, the whole thing gets even worse. If you get it done right, the results outshine the standard behavioral therapy, however it is harder to do so and not fully understood why some of the stuff works. That in itself makes it impossible for a "science" to accept it.
b) Some of the things that occur in these coachings only work because of subtleties. If you take the work of someone like Erickson and analyze it properly he abuses everything there is in the arsenal of speech to get to his goal. It takes insane amounts of creativity to treat someone by seemingly telling him a story of what happened to you on the way here. You plant metaphors in his brain, you make "mistakes" in your own language or intonation to induce certain things etc. pp. - and all of that on purpose, at the right time, adjusted properly for the person you're working with. This is not something you can teach at a lecture during a university class. - This is stuff you see in action, think "WOW OMG", try it out at random people you meet and suddenly realize you implemented it in your coaching. Most people I know working in this area have a incredibly hard time learning something like creating a solid trance-state by the book. Show em how it's done and it's a matter of hours, assuming they have enough empathy to get the basics done.
HOWEVER, learning how to deal with fuckups beyond your control takes experience and practice. There is e.g. a pretty common NLP exercise designed to boost motivation which induces states of "I can't do it", "I might be able to do it", "I can do it" and "I will do it" and tries to create a trigger for each. It's like a thing you learn in almost any basic seminar as a beginner, but (imo) it's utterly useless in a "real environment" because of the dangers involved that come with inducing the "I can't"-state. We used to use it in our seminars and stopped with it after realizing how bad this really can be. Dispite some precautions in e.g. this case we had a girl in our class who instantly associated "I can't" with a "I can't live anymore"-situation from about ten years ago that suddenly popped up. - I guess you can understand it wasn't funny being the coach in that scenario. We split her from the group and one of us (I usually coach together with someone else I trust for those worst-cases) took the time to work with her and make sure she get's professional and official help with the issue. - Would we have used this pattern a year or two earlier we would have been completely lost at what to do. In this case we almost instantly realized what's going on with her and most of group didn't even understand why we suddenly gave her a free one on one coaching. =P
Teaching a tool like this to someone who has no idea what it can/can't do (hint: I'm including myself in the past in that statement) is incredibly irresponsible and utterly stupid. A field of psychology that wants to stay a "science" can't accept things like that as viable tools in some cases.
tl;dr: To me pretty much any coaching or therapy method/NLP pattern/PUA routine is exactly that, a tool. Learn why it does what it does why it does and you can create infinite versions of it. - If it works on a consistent basis it is a tool worth keeping. With such an admittably unscientific but also progressive method you can achieve results way beyond of what is considered the "norm" in psychotherapy. That's why "underground" fields, like pickup or also NLP, are very fond of those methods since they usually seem like magic to an innocent bystander. That this "magic" is more than a simple pattern of sentences doesn't matter if you were able to sell it already. - However, if it gets too complicated or too hard to teach finer points of it it is not something you can teach someone studying to become a psychologist.
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r.evo... you aren't skyrevo from pokerstrategy? not sure if that was the actual name.
if that's you. omfg. hiiiiiii!
if that isn't you
are you actually serious about fixing people's anxiety quickly? i'm sorry, i can't believe this. how the fuck would you go about fixing approach anxiety?
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So, I have some questions for the experienced PUA's in this thread. As someone who is bad socially, I want to ask, what goes through everybody's heads as they go out into social situations. When you go out in your everyday life, do you actively search for girls to pick up, or is it I see a hot girl, go talk to her without thought, think about how to go, then go, think about how to approach the girl, then go, or just approach in certain situations, or places(like only in clubs and stuff) What goes through the mind of someone that is social? Is it natural for them to just make talk and conversation with everyone because they like doing that kind of stuff?
I'm very curious about this because I am not a very social person, and I do not have many friends. I'm always that quiet person who doesn't talk much and I feel a lot of anxiety in social atmospheres. Not that I can't talk, but it is very difficult for me. I feel like this is a problem because as I go to school, nobody at school ever approaches me, therefore I have very few friends. All the friends I have, I have had to go up to them personally and approach them. However, it takes me like 3 minutes of ok, let me do this, and a lot of self-pumping up to go do it, and I need to be prepared. I can't seem to do it in the spur of the moment.
This brings me to another point. If you're that loser, guy that is alone, is it possible to change? By this, I mean like who you are in certain social places you frequently go to/are stuck in, like school, your minority community, etc. I know this depends on the situation, but do you guys have any experience dealing with this kind of stuff? Living a life being a loner and crap sucks, it hurts, it gets tiring, and it affects you mentally and crap.
Also, what are some solutions or things I can/must do to become a more social person. It feels like the answer is just approach people, but with little social experience, it feels like I have to fail and endure more pain to get better. And there seems to me like there's so many consequences to failing in an environment that's pretty small where you meet the same people like every day, and the pool of people are limited. My entire body seems to be telling me don't do it, just do/think of anything not to approach. And I've lived my life being introverted. I know this sounds pretty pathetic. Is there some real answers to solving my problem? If I can't just approach, is there some other way, other than asking someone who can't just approach, to fix this problem?
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dude, just compare all your shitty problems to the fact that you'll be dead soon. all the answers should be obvious. i'm dead serious
this is _YOUR_ life. you want to approach random people? why you care about what other guys do? _YOU_ want to approach random people. go go go. nothing to wait for. do it. srsly.
yes it's possible to change.
actually, 100% of the cool dudes i know have gone through a phase like this. even the coolest of coolest dudes had to go through phases of anxiety, insecurity and loneliness, but they did it at a younger age than we did. from what i know, this seems to be 100% normal. either you go through it or you don't... it's your choice. really really is YOUR CHOICE.
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On January 07 2012 12:35 beg wrote:r.evo... you aren't skyrevo from pokerstrategy? not sure if that was the actual name. if that's you. omfg. hiiiiiii! if that isn't you are you actually serious about fixing people's anxiety quickly? i'm sorry, i can't believe this. how the fuck would you go about fixing approach anxiety?
Nah, I'm not. Though we used to flame each other a lot due to similar names on similar sites, lol. Besides that he's a total fish. <3
Sigh, nice bait though. Stop asking questions where I love to talk about the topic when I have the time to do so. :/
The most basic approach when trying to "cure" someones anxiety is is about first finding out how bad it is for him/her personally. A "On a scale of 1-10, if 1 is just slightly annoying and 10 means you would do everything humanly possible to avoid the situation, how bad is it?" is usually enough.
The basic assumption for the "treatment" (now we're pretty much 100% in the field of NLP) goes like this: -If a person is afraid of something, what could he get in the situation that would help him to get through it without being afraid? The "state of being afraid" always means that you lack a certain resource to master the situation when it comes to NLP. -If the fear is a real anxiety (that is why approach anxiety is tricky imo, but more on that later), it is usually a irrational feeling. The ability to think rationally would e.g. not be a resource you need since you usually can assume that emotions > thought processes when it comes to behavior (that's also why you usually can't "talk yourself into doing something"). -For most anxieties the people having them are way too close to the actual situation. Meaning, they're being kinda like too attached to reality in that specific situations. They don't see a small spider. They see a big fucking thing with huge hairy hairs. To fight this part you would run mostly simple patterns to enable the person to approach the situation while being detached. You can't work with someone who is panicking when you say "spider".
Usually a lot of small things already have a decent impact, but assuming a worst case this is how I would approach a coaching:
-Talk with the guy, establish rapport, lighten up the mood, tell a random story about what happened when I got there. Most of this part is figuring how his bodylanguage/facial expressions respond to certain inputs, maybie establishing sime simple anchors etc. - This is where I calibrate myself to make sure I don't miss important clues that the person won't tell me verbally later down the road. -Find out how bad it is really. -Use appropriate stuff to distance the person far enough from the actual problem situation. e.g. if got to know he has a "short clip of a huge walking spider" in his head when he thinks about it I might ask him to imagine himself sitting in a cinema, behind a glass panel, watching a movie in black&white which has the first image of the clip he saw on pause. - this would be an example of 5-6 "distance layers" I'm giving the person as a safety net to not freak out. Then I'd work with submodifiers of that scenario like he could in a videoediting program (make it smaller, more quiet, brighter etc.) till I've managed to "make a mental video clip" he closely associates with his anxiety (since it's originating from the first thing he had in mind) but that's also modified enough for him to not instantly trigger the anxiety.
What you do in this part depends entirely on what the person gave to you earlier. e.g. in one case I had a guy who said "Whenever I even think about looking down a high place I have this voice inside of my head saying stuff like "RUN!!", I can't think of anything else besides "GET AWAY FROM THERE". That was a case where I reworked the "voice" he heard into a version of micky mouses voice and worked from there.
I'd say in about 70% of the cases I work with it is at this point you can stop the actual session, integrate / future pace the whole thing and confronting them with the situation without them going nuts. This is when they get the actual "Wow, this isn't scary at all"-feedback from themselves and are like "wtf I can't even remember how it felt to be afraid of that" (a variation of this statement is pretty much the goal of any strong coaching).
Instead of this (or on top, that's what I usually prefer to make sure it'll be fine) comes the addition of resources they can use in the specific scenario. Usable resources are usually stuff like "A calm feeling", "Happyness", "Something totally funny", again depending on the person and scenario. Then you'd induce the feeling by making them remember a situation where they had lots of it, anchor it and send the person into the anxiety situation while triggering the anchor. That's probably the easiest part of the whole thing but it involves some slight trance-work in most cases to get it done properly.
After this you'd do the so called integration where you make sure they connect whatever scenario you just designed gets properly attached to the real situation and the so called future pace which makes sure that they look at previous and imagined future events with the new things they just got.
tl;dr: If you hear song xy, you think of a certain girl, if you smell a certain cookie you think of your childhood christmas, if you think of spiders you see a huge scary picture. The "treatment" involves re-wiring of those negative associations into something more positive. It's in theory the same a comedian does when he makes a certain posture or comment multiple times during a show, you and your buddy walk out of the show, someone randomly says the word he used all the time and you two laugh your ass of without anyone else knowing why.
K NOW ON TO APPROACH ANXIETY
While going through all of the above (total like 2-5h) works for most people when it comes to even the worst anxieties I find it highly flawed when it comes to pickup. For some reason (hint: social conditioning) compared to people who are afraid of spiders or heights people with "approach anxiety" get approval for it from their peergroups. This is fucking huge. They get approval when they whine in forums "Yeah AA is huge it will take ages for you to get over it!!!1", they get approval when they talk to their buddies "Dude, I can only do that when I'm drunk" and they get disapproval for approaching from people around them "Dude you can't just walk up and talk to her."
A person who is afraid of spiders has everyone telling them they're being irrational, a person who is afraid of talking to women has everyone telling them that it's completely normal to be afraid.
I CAN'T SAY HOW FUCKING HUGE THIS IS. While I'm confident claiming about a 90% successrate when it comes to "real" anxieties, when it comes to AA all the mess above achieves is maybe around 30% max. If you opt for a method like this it is crucial as hell that the person gets pushed into the situation asap and multiple times very close to the actual coaching. To get rid of AA quickly I'd say a buddy that shouts at you or silly bets are better than the above tbh. Also it is simply way too long to do it "real quick before going out" or even in-field. It's just not gonna happen.
(hint: This is where someone like squattin can probably tell you stories of a fucking lot of PUA newbs who got a coaching like this, were all hyped and like "DUDE IM SO CONFIDENT NOW" and once they have to talk to the woman they're big pussies again. Community is full of that stuff and most coaches doing those things don't even realize why it doesn't work consistently.)
What worked best for me from the "psycho-tricks" side of life when going out with people who had huge AA (and to some extent I worked against my own AA in a similar way) is to boost them artificially with cheap stuff (motivating stories you tell them after inducing a slight trance, music you know that gets them all hyped, movies etc. - I think I did my first (and horribly failsaucing) direct approach after watching 300, lol.) - and afterwards you make sure to create situations where they get positive feedback about them talking to gurls.
e.g. you have random pickup newb in your car, turn on BAMHEADSHOTLOLYESLETSDOIT-music, tell him an awesome story you "just read in the paper" (hint: Yes, all PUA routines can be torn apart by analyzing them via NLP and similar stuff), get into the club and start creating momentum. Hum the tune of the song, grab him, and start talking to girls with him.
-> positive feedback -> "wow this isnt so bad after all" -> anxiety gone. Despite bashing standard behavioral therapy earlier, this is pretty similar to it and the only thing I got to work on a consistent basis.
HOWEVER, yes, that means you need a buddy who can do this at first. Find em. If you're scared to death about talking to a random girl don't go out with a dude who is just as scared. You'll just circlejerk your fear and won't do anything most likely.
If you're completely on your own and can't push yourself this far with like music etc. I'd honestly start slow and work myself up. Speak to busdrivers, old women, kids, WHOEVER THE FUCK YOU MEET until it's natural to talk to people randomly. (Once again, pretty similar to behavioral therapy.)
PS: Yes, almost all of the above is usable in pickup. The better you get at working with people in general the better you can work with women. Also the more subtle and fine-tuned you get at calibrating yourself to a certain person, the better you will be able to use the exact same skillset to seduce women. However, be aware of what being able to achieve e.g. absurdly high amounts of rapport means. (hint, most prominent: quicker escalating or she will either want to marry you since you seem to be her soulmate with a penis or she will want to keep you as her best friend since you seem to be her soulmate without a penis.)
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On January 07 2012 13:07 Deucegladlier wrote: So, I have some questions for the experienced PUA's in this thread. As someone who is bad socially, I want to ask, what goes through everybody's heads as they go out into social situations. When you go out in your everyday life, do you actively search for girls to pick up, or is it I see a hot girl, go talk to her without thought, think about how to go, then go, think about how to approach the girl, then go, or just approach in certain situations, or places(like only in clubs and stuff) What goes through the mind of someone that is social? Is it natural for them to just make talk and conversation with everyone because they like doing that kind of stuff?
I'm very curious about this because I am not a very social person, and I do not have many friends. I'm always that quiet person who doesn't talk much and I feel a lot of anxiety in social atmospheres. Not that I can't talk, but it is very difficult for me. I feel like this is a problem because as I go to school, nobody at school ever approaches me, therefore I have very few friends. All the friends I have, I have had to go up to them personally and approach them. However, it takes me like 3 minutes of ok, let me do this, and a lot of self-pumping up to go do it, and I need to be prepared. I can't seem to do it in the spur of the moment.
This brings me to another point. If you're that loser, guy that is alone, is it possible to change? By this, I mean like who you are in certain social places you frequently go to/are stuck in, like school, your minority community, etc. I know this depends on the situation, but do you guys have any experience dealing with this kind of stuff? Living a life being a loner and crap sucks, it hurts, it gets tiring, and it affects you mentally and crap.
Also, what are some solutions or things I can/must do to become a more social person. It feels like the answer is just approach people, but with little social experience, it feels like I have to fail and endure more pain to get better. And there seems to me like there's so many consequences to failing in an environment that's pretty small where you meet the same people like every day, and the pool of people are limited. My entire body seems to be telling me don't do it, just do/think of anything not to approach. And I've lived my life being introverted. I know this sounds pretty pathetic. Is there some real answers to solving my problem? If I can't just approach, is there some other way, other than asking someone who can't just approach, to fix this problem?
Yes, change is possible.
From my experience people who get damn good at this stuff were either horribly bad at it when they were younger (hint: hi!) or they somehow, as beg said, made those experiences at a very young age and "snowballed" from there.
-When I was in grade 1-4 I had like... one cool buddy and got stomped by most of the badass guys. -5-7th, went along with 2-3 girls as their best buddy forever, guys never liked me much, still got stomped. -8th to 11th I had multiple school changes. First school I was buddies with the guys and gals no one else liked (yay, progress!) and I picked up my first hobbies (guitar/drums) soon after. -12th/13th is when stuff started to change. I can't even recall WHY I did it, but I joined a press organisation for young people, worked myself up with our school newspaper (dno how it's called in english, but the erh... like a paper made by the people for the people :S) and started working in another eh... GOD I HATE ENGLISH WHEN IT COMES TO THIS STUFF ... eh... like, a kind of shitty (night)club run by people from 16-27.
That was the time when I started becoming more social. A little later when I got pissed at how my life with girls worked I saw a post on TL where.. hmmm... KENNIGET posted a huge guide and recommended "The game". The orginal thread was here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=60621 - but somehow a mod must have moved it. T_T
@decafchicken: http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=70296 - this works, too, I guess. =P
From there it started really going well once I frequented our local Lair and went out with the guys 3-4 times per week. After I did this for about a year I started tuning it down and just having fun whenever I met cool girls and about another year later I met my gf (fun fact: I would have never, never approached her at all if I would have seen her somewhere) and now AGAIN a year later im still happy with her and back to balancing nerdnights, spending time with her and going out.
If you want to improve in this area: -Find your local PUA lair and check out the guys. Some suck, some rule. -Find stuff you like to do which involves other people (non-computer hobbies) -Start "nerding" this area for a while. If this means going out multiple times per week, give it a shot for a month or two. See how you feel about it then. -Once you feel confident about your skillset in this area, start tuning it down and balance your life more. Thinking 24/7 isn't fun forever.
(Also I realize I do like 1+3/4 every single time I want to learn something new. That works for me, maybe it works for you.)
...
Also I'm a dumbass for pushing down my uberposts. Oh well, qq.
Edit: For the actual mindset for me, currently, it turned into doing mah own business and when I see a girl where I think "Oh, wow, yummy!!" (yes, yummy. gtfo.) I'll find a way to talk to her, somehow find out she's not bisexual way too late and go cry alone in a corner because I suck at screening it. If she is however the train to setting up a threesome with my gf starts and usually crashes somewhere along the way because I don't have enough experience with it. Kinda hard to find suitable girls for that unless you really go out and look for them on a consistent basis. Was way easier when that part didn't matter. fml.
I only did more sets than I'd actually would like to do when I felt like I totally sucked at it. The better I became, the less I approached and the higher my success rate got. Quality > quantity for me in the long run.
Edit 2: Kennigit ez #1
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=98041
^^^^THE OFFICIAL GUIDE TO ONLINE DATING FOR TLERS
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thanks fucking a lot for answering my questions.
you and skyrevo flaming each other? haha, awesome. the world is so small
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r.Evo,
Whats Kennigit's lay count from online game?
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On January 07 2012 21:20 squattincassanova wrote: r.Evo,
Whats Kennigit's lay count from online game?
Go ask him. However, he's asian, a baller and a TL admin. I'd assume that's enough to say it's in the high ninethousands.
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Kennigit is super asian. He's so asian he turned caucasian.
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FYI, being Asian doesn't automatically add to your game. Asians have negative stereotypes when it comes to dating.
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It can give you an advantage in some cases too, can't it? Kinda like being a black dude; some chicks will get turned off immediately but other will jump down their throat in an instant.
What's your experience been?
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^^^^THE OFFICIAL GUIDE TO ONLINE DATING FOR TLERS
wtf is this? I'm terrible with social interaction w/anyone, but even i'm not desperate enough for this kind of thing
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
I'm white as fuck. I actually lost count and i don't really put much value in numbers of girls i dated/slept with - the value is in the experience. I've done online dating for ..3 years i guess. I've met...probably ~100 girls.
On January 08 2012 11:03 Release wrote:wtf is this? I'm terrible with social interaction w/anyone, but even i'm not desperate enough for this kind of thing
This attitude is why you are not getting laid.
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On January 07 2012 13:07 Deucegladlier wrote: So, I have some questions for the experienced PUA's in this thread. As someone who is bad socially, I want to ask, what goes through everybody's heads as they go out into social situations. When you go out in your everyday life, do you actively search for girls to pick up, or is it I see a hot girl, go talk to her without thought, think about how to go, then go, think about how to approach the girl, then go, or just approach in certain situations, or places(like only in clubs and stuff) What goes through the mind of someone that is social? Is it natural for them to just make talk and conversation with everyone because they like doing that kind of stuff?
I'm very curious about this because I am not a very social person, and I do not have many friends. I'm always that quiet person who doesn't talk much and I feel a lot of anxiety in social atmospheres. Not that I can't talk, but it is very difficult for me. I feel like this is a problem because as I go to school, nobody at school ever approaches me, therefore I have very few friends. All the friends I have, I have had to go up to them personally and approach them. However, it takes me like 3 minutes of ok, let me do this, and a lot of self-pumping up to go do it, and I need to be prepared. I can't seem to do it in the spur of the moment.
This brings me to another point. If you're that loser, guy that is alone, is it possible to change? By this, I mean like who you are in certain social places you frequently go to/are stuck in, like school, your minority community, etc. I know this depends on the situation, but do you guys have any experience dealing with this kind of stuff? Living a life being a loner and crap sucks, it hurts, it gets tiring, and it affects you mentally and crap.
Also, what are some solutions or things I can/must do to become a more social person. It feels like the answer is just approach people, but with little social experience, it feels like I have to fail and endure more pain to get better. And there seems to me like there's so many consequences to failing in an environment that's pretty small where you meet the same people like every day, and the pool of people are limited. My entire body seems to be telling me don't do it, just do/think of anything not to approach. And I've lived my life being introverted. I know this sounds pretty pathetic. Is there some real answers to solving my problem? If I can't just approach, is there some other way, other than asking someone who can't just approach, to fix this problem?
Not an experienced PUA, but download a book called Mystery Method to get you started. The opening paragraph is very powerful, it says something like:
"Nature is very unforgiving. If you do not fuck women, nature will naturally weed you out of existence... When watching discovery channel, there is an alpha gorilla fucking all the female gorillas, whilst all the male beta gorillas sit by watching and masturbating."
The number one turn-off for men is ugliness in women. The number one turn-off for women is losers in men. Ask yourself - do you want to be that loser? Once you can answer that question, once you know whether or not you want to be an alpha or a loser beta, anything that you will need to do to change that will come naturally.
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On January 08 2012 11:33 Kennigit wrote:I'm white as fuck. I actually lost count and i don't really put much value in numbers of girls i dated/slept with - the value is in the experience. I've done online dating for ..3 years i guess. I've met...probably ~100 girls. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 11:03 Release wrote:^^^^THE OFFICIAL GUIDE TO ONLINE DATING FOR TLERS
wtf is this? I'm terrible with social interaction w/anyone, but even i'm not desperate enough for this kind of thing This attitude is why you are not getting laid.
100 lays in 3 years is close to almost a new lay every ten days. You RLY this good? And this was without practicing mainstream pickup or with? I noticed with PlentyofFish /OKcupid, its a LOT of the same girls on all the time, unless you are gaming far ass chicks.
If I work on game full time, I can probably get a lay every week like if I quit my job, but since I am working 2 jobs and only going out 2 nights a week, I'm averaging a lay every 3 weeks.
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But my friend told me that 60% of girls on online dating sights, give lays on the first night. So pretty much if you can get them to go out, and you are decent... you can make it happen. Its almost like its on their mine to get laid in advance.
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