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United Kingdom20157 Posts
I dont think people should really be complaining below masters in the first place. Im starting to play and break into low masters, and like 4 out of 5 zerg dont even scout me between the ~3 and 10 minute mark. They wonder why they lose like 70% of the time, and most of my losses are due to me messing up something stupid like failing to see speed/drop overlords until they have been in my vision for several seconds during an all in, or forgetting warpgate and not noticing the 50/50 floating in bank because i wasnt planning to chrono cyber core for a little while with that opening.
On the other hand all the protosses i face are terrible as well and i have an even higher winrate ZvP even though ive played 15x as many games as protoss because stephano style with decent macro and good scouting will destroy anyone who doesnt play to the standards of a masters player.
Terran mid/late game is tricky, but ending games before the 12 minute mark as a goal, i find it no more difficult to play than P or Z (and actuly more forgiving if you play marine heavy and can micro properly), and it also gives more easy wins.
All in all i am still a horrible player by global standards, but even at this level, people complaining of imbalance of judging their opponents by it (as i get flamed in most of my wins) is just stupid, from people who cant accept that there might be anything wrong with THEM and seek an outside source to blame
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I only chose Zerg because it was considered the weakest and only 25% or so used Zerg at release 2 years ago if I remember correctly. I wanted to use the weakest to beat the other 2. Recent strong Zerg presense makes me sad. Maybe I gotta switch to Terran then. It's fun only because your race is considered weak..
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I personally know two people that switched from Terran to Zerg.
The first person was diamond switched at the beginning of 2011, so you could wonder about the overall level of play back then. The second person switched at the end of 2011 and was diamond as well. Both players pretty much laughed at how easy zerg is, and kept saying how they could play the game very laid back (or something around those lines). Each of them individually also said how easy ZvZ was. How they didnt really looe ZvZ.
I do not know if Terran is really harder, but it does seem like Terran is the most frustrating to play. Very easy to lose everything in a split second and such. Blizzard also stated that they wanted to give terrans better A-move units.
Make from it what you will, but my experience is that people dont abandon terran purely because the rase is less appealing.
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On September 21 2012 17:56 Cyro wrote: I dont think people should really be complaining below masters in the first place. Im starting to play and break into low masters, and like 4 out of 5 zerg dont even scout me between the ~3 and 10 minute mark. They wonder why they lose like 70% of the time, and most of my losses are due to me messing up something stupid or playing 10 minutes after waking up.
On the other hand all the protosses i face are terrible and i have an even higher winrate ZvP even though ive played 15x as many games as protoss because stephano style with decent macro and good scouting will destroy anyone who doesnt play to the standards of a masters player.
Terran mid/late game is tricky, but ending games before the 12 minute mark as a goal, i find it no more difficult to play than P or Z, and it also gives more easy wins.
Sort of glad I'm not the only one that feels this way lol.
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terran sucks, it is much much much harder to play than z / p. there's really only a handful of top korean terrans that are really fast/smart enough to hold their own against the best zergs.
TvP is fine tho imo :D just TvZ sucks really hard, need 300 apm to beat a 200 apm zerg
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This is because of Blzzards way of balancing: make fancy, overpowered units, so that everybody uses them, then nerf them until they are fair.
the problem with current z is that it is way too easy to get to the lategame 3hatch is a legit strategy on some maps, wtf.... zergs only need to amove, then the terran has to micro like mma to be able to compete. this may be possible at pro level, and maybe it is good that it is balanced there, but at masters level playing z is just too easy and very frustrating for t players.
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United Kingdom20157 Posts
On September 21 2012 18:01 ROOTdrewbie wrote: terran sucks, it is much much much harder to play than z / p. there's really only a handful of top korean terrans that are really fast/smart enough to hold their own against the best zergs.
TvP is fine tho imo :D just TvZ sucks really hard, need 300 apm to beat a 200 apm zerg
APM is a horrible method of describing multitasking, hand speed or micro ability, my APM is inflated by more than 50% when playing zerg as opposed to protoss and there are many many more arguments against it. If you are not taking redundant actions into account, it is even worse
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I played zerg for over a year. About 4 months ago I switched to random or just picking one of the 3 races whichever I feel like playing.
My opinion is that terran is the hardest race to learn and play effectively. I feel this might be partly due to the 2 quite different styles you "must" play vs P and vs Z and T. Overall, the key unit vs toss is ghost, and the key unit vs T and Z is the tank. Using ghosts differs greatly from using tanks and for both styles, 2 control groups are pretty much required. To do well you must stim as well as, preferably pre-battle, have your tanks sieged correctly or land EMPs somewhat correctly.
Compare this to toss and zerg, where basically 1 control group for everything and A-move works relatively well up to a point. You can also have infestors and templars in the same control group with your main army (even though you really shouldn't) and relatively easily use your spells after A-moving everything. And there is no stim on toss or zerg.
Basically the overall style of play and especially micro is not so drastically different when facing different races as toss or zerg.
Generally if race X is easier than race Y, more people are going to play race X.
Edit: Fixed a small typo.
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United Kingdom20157 Posts
Using ghosts differs greatly from using tanks and for both styles, 2 control groups are pretty much required.
If you are not using 2 or more control groups you should be working on mechanics instead of complaining of imbalance ಠ_ಠ
It should really be more widespread to use a system like this for protoss, IMO, but whatever you are doing, with any race and pretty much any style, there is use for more than 1 control group.
(1) Blobbed anti ground units with 2.25 speed, zealots, immortals, archons, colossi etc + sentries
(2) Stalkers (AA, 2.91 speed, almost all else is 2.25)
(3) Just Colossi, for manual control, pulling away or focus firing etc
(4) Templar that are with army
^ PvT.
That way you have 1fgx for sentry spells, 2 for stalker control and blink, 4tf for templar spells, and no overlap with either casters, or massively differing move speeds.
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THORZAIN!! KAS!! DEMUSLIM!! QXC!! (damn how come i feel so weak even though i shouted the names out in capital letters?)
stephano (fuck my pants is so wet now)
naniwa, huk (fuck im shitting my pants now)
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On September 21 2012 18:11 gengka wrote: THORZAIN!! KAS!! DEMUSLIM!! QXC!! (damn how come i feel so weak even though i shouted the names out in capital letters?)
stephano (fuck my pants is so wet now)
naniwa, huk (fuck im shitting my pants now)
what the hell is wrong with u -_-
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On September 21 2012 18:11 gengka wrote: THORZAIN!! KAS!! DEMUSLIM!! QXC!! (damn how come i feel so weak even though i shouted the names out in capital letters?)
stephano (fuck my pants is so wet now)
naniwa, huk (fuck im shitting my pants now)
what
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I main random, and find it much much harder to play tvz than zvt. The fact that terran used to be the most played race and is now the least, along with the fact that T is over represented in bronze and under represented in masters/gm pretty strongly suggests imbalance. I really hope they get more than one new unit (and a transformation) in hots. Dark days for Terran atm. Anecdotally, all but one of my IRL terran friends have quit or changed races.
That said theres also an argument T might be popular in bronze since its the most cheese proof.
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On September 21 2012 18:10 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote + Using ghosts differs greatly from using tanks and for both styles, 2 control groups are pretty much required. If you are not using 2 or more control groups you should be working on mechanics instead of complaining of imbalance ಠ_ಠ
I'm not complaining of imbalance, sorry if it came across like that. I think the races are fine balance-wise.
I do use several control groups for army control. But basically in my opinion, due to tanks and ghosts being so different and essentially requiring 2 control groups to use effectively even at a lower level, terran is harder to learn and this might be a factor as to why there are less terran. I think the basic micro required to do well as toss or zerg is easier than terran.
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The thing i can see here, is that the representation of the terrans are nearly the same on all lvls. Yeah the lower lvls don't matter, but that's beside the point now...
So that means, that the skill lvl stays the same, because if terran would be harder to play on higher lvl, then there would be less terrans on the top lvl, and not just a few less, we talk about statistics. You also want to look at the average person and not some super human beings like "Flash". Flash is someone out of the statistics, because his winrates are too damn high.
So you want to look at each player independently of his skill, because you want to analyze the stats among ther races.
If someone switches, it can be because of a better suited playstyle, some new units, boredom, and many more...
There is no way you can determine race changes in a single season. It doesnt make any sense. You can check each player among the top players, when they changed and for how long, but the reason is still in their brains, and that cant be written down, you can just speculate.
And finally, one of the main reason why the koreans "play better" is that they first search errors they made before they search errors on the enemy. It's simple to blame someone else if you lose, but keep in mind that you are the one who chosoe to play "your race", if you see some problems while playing, then fix them. If you see that your build doesnt work, then refine it. If you see that you cant win a single game if the enemy does no mistake, then you're already depending on a mistake that the enemy does, which will never bring you on a top lvl.
First of all, look that you tried as many builds as possible and mastered those builds. If you didnt, then you didnt do your job properly. What do you think the pros do?
And last but not least: All-Ins are builds too, even if they are said that "they require less skill"...
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On September 21 2012 10:40 sekritzzz wrote: Its a bit hilarious how all these people are throwing random conclusions such as "terran is a hard race to play, thus less people play it". Its as if sc2 came out a month ago. For people who didn't know terran was quite popular back in the day.... and zerg was played at a 20%~ rate.
After 300 nerfs, terran became harder to play. I even stopped playing sc2 completely ( Need to get a new pc to be able to play at 200/200...One base things are almost impossible to pull out these days...I had mb 70% wr TvT but against Z and P.... Z mb 20% and P 30% ). I go on on a one base timing...I have to do crazy split marines and micro with stuff against zerg who merely has to send attack move on my units and everything dies ( unless I do decent splits and micro ). I loose with about 130 eapm while the dude has about 60 ... Cmon...... And I don't senslessly spam. I know it's more about the brains in sc2 rather than mechanics compared to how bw was.. I remember in ICCup about 5 years ago I could fool all protoss with sick vulture tank micro early on....I mean cmon.... Goody defeated MMA in a bo3 at MLG.
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Terran is the race that takes forever to master but if you do it's very hard to lose. The micro bots demonstrate that with things like 1 marine and 1 medivac > ultra. Now I know that no-one will ever be able to do what the bots do but terran can definately do the most with their units given enough apm and skill. The race is played less because the majority of the players would rather play a race thats easier to get the most out of their units because it's just a casual game for them. In Korea lots of people want to be progamers and thus focus on trying to perfect terran.
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I played random for a long time and then chose Terran. The race is so fragile but has super high DPS. This is great for killing structures, but means that you can lose your army in an instant with one wrong move. Discovering safe build orders has been the most difficult part for me, especially considering T can't build static defenses without eating up supply.
Stephano sure thinks playing Zerg is easy...
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On September 21 2012 11:57 -_- wrote: Nobody chooses their race based on balance. Nobody switches their race based on balance. You just choose whatever looks coolest to you.
What do you know about that? I switched to Protoss from Terran because TvP is just silly. It was the same for Jaedong when he started playing Zerg, he had problems vs Zerg as Terran so he switched. A lot of players witch race bacause of balance.
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On September 21 2012 18:50 creamyturtle wrote: I played random for a long time and then chose Terran. The race is so fragile but has super high DPS. This is great for killing structures, but means that you can lose your army in an instant with one wrong move. Discovering safe build orders has been the most difficult part for me, especially considering T can't build static defenses without eating up supply.
Stephano sure thinks playing Zerg is easy...
PF says hi
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