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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On August 22 2014 03:58 Nyxisto wrote:Hit and miss? It was miss and miss. I have yet to see one scholarly or journalistic source that hasn't come to the conclusion that the war on drugs was an utter failure. Sure, some states are starting to acknowledge that now, but a lot of them, mostly the predominantly conservatives, don't seem inclined to change at all. Given the damage these policies have caused I don't think it's acceptable for people to wait five generations until the system is fixed. What does "it has been actively discussed" even mean? How does it help teenagers that are getting locked up for decades right now that the topic is being actively discussed? Like this guy The war on drugs is PART of the crime issue, but it is not the whole issue (why would you think otherwise?). Crime is at something like a 30 year low, I think that I can say there are some successes in that.
Source
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On August 22 2014 04:31 JonnyBNoHo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 03:58 Nyxisto wrote:Hit and miss? It was miss and miss. I have yet to see one scholarly or journalistic source that hasn't come to the conclusion that the war on drugs was an utter failure. Sure, some states are starting to acknowledge that now, but a lot of them, mostly the predominantly conservatives, don't seem inclined to change at all. Given the damage these policies have caused I don't think it's acceptable for people to wait five generations until the system is fixed. What does "it has been actively discussed" even mean? How does it help teenagers that are getting locked up for decades right now that the topic is being actively discussed? Like this guy The war on drugs is PART of the crime issue, but it is not the whole issue (why would you think otherwise?). Crime is at something like a 30 year low, I think that I can say there are some successes in that. Source
Can't help but notice all of the stats are higher than the early 1960's except murder (just barely).
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On August 22 2014 04:41 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 04:31 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 22 2014 03:58 Nyxisto wrote:Hit and miss? It was miss and miss. I have yet to see one scholarly or journalistic source that hasn't come to the conclusion that the war on drugs was an utter failure. Sure, some states are starting to acknowledge that now, but a lot of them, mostly the predominantly conservatives, don't seem inclined to change at all. Given the damage these policies have caused I don't think it's acceptable for people to wait five generations until the system is fixed. What does "it has been actively discussed" even mean? How does it help teenagers that are getting locked up for decades right now that the topic is being actively discussed? Like this guy The war on drugs is PART of the crime issue, but it is not the whole issue (why would you think otherwise?). Crime is at something like a 30 year low, I think that I can say there are some successes in that. Source Can't help but notice all of the stats are higher than the early 1960's except murder (just barely). Probably an effect of actual data gathering as opposed to asking how many robberies Sheriff Bill thought he knew about in the past year.
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A federal judge in Florida has ruled the state's gay marriage ban unconstitutional, according to the Associated Press.
The decision by U.S. District Judge Robert L. Hinkle is the latest of several-dozen rulings for same-sex marriage by federal courts across the country since the Supreme Court's landmark ruling advancing gay rights in 2013. On the federal level, gay marriage has since enjoyed an undefeated streak.
Hinkle put a hold on his ruling, meaning gay couples in Florida will not be able to receive marriage licenses just yet.
The ruling puts Republican Gov. Rick Scott in a predicament as he runs for reelection. As gay marriage becomes more popular in the state he has obscured his position on the issue and dodged questions by reporters. His administration has a say in whether to appeal the decision and defend the state's ban.
Charlie Crist, the Democratic nominee for governor in Florida, who supports marriage equality, quickly praised the ruling.
Source
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On August 22 2014 05:23 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 04:41 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 22 2014 04:31 JonnyBNoHo wrote:On August 22 2014 03:58 Nyxisto wrote:Hit and miss? It was miss and miss. I have yet to see one scholarly or journalistic source that hasn't come to the conclusion that the war on drugs was an utter failure. Sure, some states are starting to acknowledge that now, but a lot of them, mostly the predominantly conservatives, don't seem inclined to change at all. Given the damage these policies have caused I don't think it's acceptable for people to wait five generations until the system is fixed. What does "it has been actively discussed" even mean? How does it help teenagers that are getting locked up for decades right now that the topic is being actively discussed? Like this guy The war on drugs is PART of the crime issue, but it is not the whole issue (why would you think otherwise?). Crime is at something like a 30 year low, I think that I can say there are some successes in that. Source Can't help but notice all of the stats are higher than the early 1960's except murder (just barely). Probably an effect of actual data gathering as opposed to asking how many robberies Sheriff Bill thought he knew about in the past year.
I would imagine the paperwork/data gathering hasn't changed much since then. Certainly it wasn't significantly better in the 70's than the 60's
I highly doubt the difference has much to anything to do with how they were collecting data.
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On August 22 2014 02:13 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2014 11:21 xDaunt wrote: Personally, I love seeing liberals struggle to explain why Asians have succeeded where Blacks haven't. Their histories are very similar -- a better fit than Indians. There's only one way this is explained by any type of non-systematic explanation pertaining to the individuals involved, and that is by stating that africans are genetically inferior to asians (in regards to attaining success as defined by 'America'). That actually is a narrative I am refusing to accept even if it were proven true because the acceptance of those ideas have historically been breeding grounds for the some of the worst atrocities through human history.
I don't think it's necessary to go here.
Basically, I can accept that 'black culture' (as a collective term used to describe disenfranchised youth in inner cities including whites and hispanics as well just in much smaller number) has let's just say, a focus on short term pleasure rather than long term gain - and in this regard, it is diametrically opposed to the culture brought by first generation asian immigrants. I just can't accept that the individuals who are part of this culture are given personal blame for this. You can't just 'choose' to distance yourself from the ideals of your community, it doesn't work like that. Basically for personal choice to be the (frankly, even a) factor in explaining large systematic differences between ethnic groups, you have to state that the groups differ genetically, and then you'd still be blaming individuals for losing a birth lottery.
I'm basically on board with the idea that it is difficult for the individual to buck the community. However, this doesn't change the fact that the community is poisoned to such an extent that reacts badly to anything resembling constructive criticism (See Bill Cosby). The leaders of the black community are doing their people a huge disservice by making them into perpetual victims and allowing them to avoid confronting the hard truths regarding how fucked up many of their priorities and other cultural aspects are. No one is standing in the way of black self-improvement but blacks themselves.
But yes, if 'black america' suddenly decided to collectively start spending the same hours and energy and dedication that 'asian america' does on activities that are likely to 'build long term character', then african americans would end up being over-represented in more positive rather than negative statistics. There's no doubt about this and it would be intellectually dishonest for me to suggest otherwise.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
But you can't just like, tell them to collectively wisen up and expect that to happen. Groups of people act in ways that are counter-productive all the time - but in my experience, people also always act according to their own rationality. (this is very different from are always rational.) By this I mean that, maybe for the 17 year old african american, it just makes way more sense for him to get a little high and laid a bunch than for him to spend the following 6 years working to get a degree. Firstly, the importance of education was never pushed onto him as a child. He didn't have parents who read books or even newspapers. With this background, you cannot simply expect him, as a 17 year old, to achieve the same academic results as a 17 year old asian whose childhood included a significant portion of ''work as hard as you can in school because your academic success is the most important aspect for determining your future happiness' lectures. In this scenario, our african american would probably have to work twice as hard from that point on to make up for inequalities stemming from a period of his life he cannot possibly be expected to have control over. Likewise, butts and drugs are far more available to him, and can provide happiness that detracts from what is essentially no real prospect for the future.
Why can't we just tell them to wise up? Why do they get a free pass as a community from making any effort at self-improvement? Don't you think that it is rather racist to hold them to a lower standard than everyone else?
I essentially think it's incredibly unfair to just say to a group of people ; well, sure it's tougher for you guys, but that just means you have to work harder, because this drive and motivation to work hard aren't factors determined by their own choices. I, as a liberal by american definition, can certainly notice that there are significant cultural differences between asian, white and black communities. But I don't want to put the blame on this to the people belonging to the communities, in my opinion (and I cannot see how I can be convinced otherwise), group mentalities cannot be explained by individual choices.
My point -- and the general point among conservatives -- is this: what the black community is doing now and what it accepts for itself is simply unacceptable. The worst part is that no one will say anything about it. If whitey says something, then we're a bunch of racists. Whenever people in the black community speak up, they're labeled Uncle Toms and cast out. The only acceptable narrative is that black people are a bunch of victims who bear no responsibility for their current woes. I can't think of a more fucked up situation than this.
EDIT: And before someone tries to argue that the bold statement isn't true, just look at the media narratives regarding what's going on in Ferguson or what happened with Trayvon Martin. There's only one party being blamed.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles?
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On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again.
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On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again.
Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same?
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On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again.
Really, so you listen to the arguments you want to (Bookwyrm's) and ignore everyone else's?
On August 22 2014 06:02 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks. Gee I wonder why. Black people must genetically not want to do well in this world!
Do you not believe that environment can play a huge part in cultivating failure or something?
I can tell you, as an Asian-American who grew up in a low-income, ghetto area, that a great number of other Asians who grew up in my community fell victim to the exact same things you criticize African-Americans for. It's not just a coincidence that a significant amount of people make the same choices that ultimately lead to them failing.
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On August 22 2014 06:02 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks. And you can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all treated better than blacks, both historically and presently. FUNNY COINCIDENCE Furthermore, your pseudo-argument about black people allegedly not really putting forth enough effort has NO FUCKING BEARING ON WHETHER OR NOT WE SHOULD DECIMATE INSTITUTIONAL DISCRIMINATION AGAINST THEM.
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On August 22 2014 06:02 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks.
This guy....
Ok buddy it's all black people's fault and the differences in various Asian cultures don't matter... I can't do race discussions on here anymore. I am too used to having conversations where people recognize the reality black people (and other non-whites) face and we can have a constructive discussion from there. The non-blacks making the 'bootstrap' argument here are just way to ignorant and comfortably so, to bother with for myself.
Like I said 1 year of law in the reverse of slavery (I'm fine with not actually having any slavery as part of it) and you wouldn't hear another complaint from me about white on black racism. 100+ to 1 sounds like a pretty good deal.
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On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again.
sooooo is the inequality that Black people have faced (starting off with the enslavement of Africans and ending with the mass incarceration of people of color) not relevant here? by stating its a product of "Black culture" you're being both ignorant and racist.
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On August 22 2014 06:08 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Really, so you listen to the arguments you want to (Bookwyrm's) and ignore everyone else's?
Basically, yes. Whenever I raise an incendiary point, I receive too many responses for me to address. Most responses are shit anyway, so I'd rather not waste my time. I will, however, take the time to respond to well-thought-out posts or other posters whom I know will give me an interesting conversation. We all have our reputations around here.
EDIT: And here's a good example of what I'm talking about when I say that most responses are shit:
On August 22 2014 06:16 YoureFired wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. sooooo is the inequality that Black people have faced (starting off with the enslavement of Africans and ending with the mass incarceration of people of color) not relevant here? by stating its a product of "Black culture" you're being both ignorant and racist.
Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:02 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks. Gee I wonder why. Black people must genetically not want to do well in this world! Do you not believe that environment can play a huge part in cultivating failure or something? I can tell you, as an Asian-American who grew up in a low-income, ghetto area, that a great number of other Asians who grew up in my community fell victim to the exact same things you criticize African-Americans for. It's not just a coincidence that a significant amount of people make the same choices that ultimately lead to them failing.
Of course there's a correlation between socio-economic status and crime. However, you can control for that factor, and once you do, it becomes fairly obvious which groups are more problematic than others.
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On August 22 2014 06:17 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:08 Souma wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Really, so you listen to the arguments you want to (Bookwyrm's) and ignore everyone else's? Basically, yes. Whenever I raise an incendiary point, I receive too many responses for me to address. Most responses are shit anyway, so I'd rather not waste my time. I will, however, take the time to respond to well-thought-out posts or other posters whom I know will give me an interesting conversation. We all have our reputations around here. Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:02 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks. Gee I wonder why. Black people must genetically not want to do well in this world! Do you not believe that environment can play a huge part in cultivating failure or something? I can tell you, as an Asian-American who grew up in a low-income, ghetto area, that a great number of other Asians who grew up in my community fell victim to the exact same things you criticize African-Americans for. It's not just a coincidence that a significant amount of people make the same choices that ultimately lead to them failing. Of course there's a correlation between socio-economic status and crime. However, you can control for that factor, and once you do, it becomes fairly obvious which groups are more problematic than others. I think you are relying too much on statistics and too little on reasoning. If crime is higher in an area, crime is higher in an area. If an area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, the area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, if an areas is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants, the area is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants. As soon as you start correlating african descendance, powerty and crime you are completely neglecting community and any other third party influences. That is very unfortunate since the descendancy should be completely irrelevant to your observation, while cultural issues are a real thing and while there are some common traits in "black culture" the tool is not accounting for the specific local differences that would cause us to avoid the stupid black vs white dichotomy. I would say geography has a reasonable chance of being better correlated with the issues rather than skincolour.
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What is your point? Why is framing it in terms of victims/perpetrators so important to you? What is the black community and how would one go about changing it? Everyone understands that the social dynamics of a racial group/ethnicity are complex with many interacting factors. A people's history certainly plays a major role. But you would have us believe that the biggest problem is that black people aren't told that its their own fault often enough?
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On August 22 2014 06:30 radiatoren wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:17 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:08 Souma wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Really, so you listen to the arguments you want to (Bookwyrm's) and ignore everyone else's? Basically, yes. Whenever I raise an incendiary point, I receive too many responses for me to address. Most responses are shit anyway, so I'd rather not waste my time. I will, however, take the time to respond to well-thought-out posts or other posters whom I know will give me an interesting conversation. We all have our reputations around here. On August 22 2014 06:02 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks. Gee I wonder why. Black people must genetically not want to do well in this world! Do you not believe that environment can play a huge part in cultivating failure or something? I can tell you, as an Asian-American who grew up in a low-income, ghetto area, that a great number of other Asians who grew up in my community fell victim to the exact same things you criticize African-Americans for. It's not just a coincidence that a significant amount of people make the same choices that ultimately lead to them failing. Of course there's a correlation between socio-economic status and crime. However, you can control for that factor, and once you do, it becomes fairly obvious which groups are more problematic than others. I think you are relying too much on statistics and too little on reasoning. If crime is higher in an area, crime is higher in an area. If an area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, the area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, if an areas is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants, the area is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants. As soon as you start correlating african descendance, powerty and crime you are completely neglecting community and any other third party influences. That is very unfortunate since the descendancy should be completely irrelevant to your observation, while cultural issues are a real thing and while there are some common traits in "black culture" the tool is not accounting for the specific local differences that would cause us to avoid the stupid black vs white dichotomy. I would say geography has a reasonable chance of being better correlated with the issues rather than skincolour. I don't know what "issues" that you're describing, but studies in the US show that race -- or more specifically, the presence of blacks and hispanics -- is the best indicator of crime.
EDIT: Go look at "The Color of Crime." It's conclusions paint a rather stark picture.
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On August 22 2014 06:36 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:30 radiatoren wrote:On August 22 2014 06:17 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:08 Souma wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Really, so you listen to the arguments you want to (Bookwyrm's) and ignore everyone else's? Basically, yes. Whenever I raise an incendiary point, I receive too many responses for me to address. Most responses are shit anyway, so I'd rather not waste my time. I will, however, take the time to respond to well-thought-out posts or other posters whom I know will give me an interesting conversation. We all have our reputations around here. On August 22 2014 06:02 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks. Gee I wonder why. Black people must genetically not want to do well in this world! Do you not believe that environment can play a huge part in cultivating failure or something? I can tell you, as an Asian-American who grew up in a low-income, ghetto area, that a great number of other Asians who grew up in my community fell victim to the exact same things you criticize African-Americans for. It's not just a coincidence that a significant amount of people make the same choices that ultimately lead to them failing. Of course there's a correlation between socio-economic status and crime. However, you can control for that factor, and once you do, it becomes fairly obvious which groups are more problematic than others. I think you are relying too much on statistics and too little on reasoning. If crime is higher in an area, crime is higher in an area. If an area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, the area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, if an areas is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants, the area is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants. As soon as you start correlating african descendance, powerty and crime you are completely neglecting community and any other third party influences. That is very unfortunate since the descendancy should be completely irrelevant to your observation, while cultural issues are a real thing and while there are some common traits in "black culture" the tool is not accounting for the specific local differences that would cause us to avoid the stupid black vs white dichotomy. I would say geography has a reasonable chance of being better correlated with the issues rather than skincolour. I don't know what "issues" that you're describing, but studies in the US show that race -- or more specifically, the presence of blacks and hispanics -- is the best indicator of crime. That is a disturbing point, if true, but could you find the studies so we can discuss them more specifically?
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On August 22 2014 06:36 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:30 radiatoren wrote:On August 22 2014 06:17 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:08 Souma wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Really, so you listen to the arguments you want to (Bookwyrm's) and ignore everyone else's? Basically, yes. Whenever I raise an incendiary point, I receive too many responses for me to address. Most responses are shit anyway, so I'd rather not waste my time. I will, however, take the time to respond to well-thought-out posts or other posters whom I know will give me an interesting conversation. We all have our reputations around here. On August 22 2014 06:02 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks. Gee I wonder why. Black people must genetically not want to do well in this world! Do you not believe that environment can play a huge part in cultivating failure or something? I can tell you, as an Asian-American who grew up in a low-income, ghetto area, that a great number of other Asians who grew up in my community fell victim to the exact same things you criticize African-Americans for. It's not just a coincidence that a significant amount of people make the same choices that ultimately lead to them failing. Of course there's a correlation between socio-economic status and crime. However, you can control for that factor, and once you do, it becomes fairly obvious which groups are more problematic than others. I think you are relying too much on statistics and too little on reasoning. If crime is higher in an area, crime is higher in an area. If an area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, the area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, if an areas is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants, the area is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants. As soon as you start correlating african descendance, powerty and crime you are completely neglecting community and any other third party influences. That is very unfortunate since the descendancy should be completely irrelevant to your observation, while cultural issues are a real thing and while there are some common traits in "black culture" the tool is not accounting for the specific local differences that would cause us to avoid the stupid black vs white dichotomy. I would say geography has a reasonable chance of being better correlated with the issues rather than skincolour. I don't know what "issues" that you're describing, but studies in the US show that race -- or more specifically, the presence of blacks and hispanics -- is the best indicator of crime. No, it's not, unless you are 1. a moron or 2. a racist
If we policed white people as much as we police black people, then being white would be the best indicator of criminality. Furthermore, the overpolicing of black people does double damage because of our criminal indoctrination camps, aka our prisons.
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