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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On August 22 2014 06:34 Crushinator wrote: What is your point? Why is framing it in terms of victims/perpetrators so important to you? What is the black community and how would one go about changing it? Everyone understands that the social dynamics of a racial group/ethnicity are complex with many interacting factors. A people's history certainly plays a major role. But you would have us believe that the biggest problem is that black people aren't told that its their own fault often enough?
It matters because the black community is never going to improve itself until it confronts its own demons. As long as people keep giving them excuses to avoid that confrontation and do some soul searching, improvement will never happen.
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On August 22 2014 06:39 radiatoren wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:36 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:30 radiatoren wrote:On August 22 2014 06:17 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:08 Souma wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Really, so you listen to the arguments you want to (Bookwyrm's) and ignore everyone else's? Basically, yes. Whenever I raise an incendiary point, I receive too many responses for me to address. Most responses are shit anyway, so I'd rather not waste my time. I will, however, take the time to respond to well-thought-out posts or other posters whom I know will give me an interesting conversation. We all have our reputations around here. On August 22 2014 06:02 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks. Gee I wonder why. Black people must genetically not want to do well in this world! Do you not believe that environment can play a huge part in cultivating failure or something? I can tell you, as an Asian-American who grew up in a low-income, ghetto area, that a great number of other Asians who grew up in my community fell victim to the exact same things you criticize African-Americans for. It's not just a coincidence that a significant amount of people make the same choices that ultimately lead to them failing. Of course there's a correlation between socio-economic status and crime. However, you can control for that factor, and once you do, it becomes fairly obvious which groups are more problematic than others. I think you are relying too much on statistics and too little on reasoning. If crime is higher in an area, crime is higher in an area. If an area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, the area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, if an areas is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants, the area is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants. As soon as you start correlating african descendance, powerty and crime you are completely neglecting community and any other third party influences. That is very unfortunate since the descendancy should be completely irrelevant to your observation, while cultural issues are a real thing and while there are some common traits in "black culture" the tool is not accounting for the specific local differences that would cause us to avoid the stupid black vs white dichotomy. I would say geography has a reasonable chance of being better correlated with the issues rather than skincolour. I don't know what "issues" that you're describing, but studies in the US show that race -- or more specifically, the presence of blacks and hispanics -- is the best indicator of crime. That is a disturbing point, if true, but could you find the studies so we can discuss them more specifically?
Here: http://solargeneral.org/wp-content/uploads/library/color-of-crime.pdf
Major Findings: Police and the justice system are not biased against minorities. Crime Rates Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder, and eight times more likely to commit robbery. When blacks commit crimes of violence, they are nearly three times more likely than non-blacks to use a gun, and more than twice as likely to use a knife. Hispanics commit violent crimes at roughly three times the white rate, and Asians commit violent crimes at about one quarter the white rate. The single best indicator of violent crime levels in an area is the percentage of the population that is black and Hispanic. Interracial Crime Of the nearly 770,000 violent interracial crimes committed every year involving blacks and whites, blacks commit 85 percent and whites commit 15 percent. Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks. Forty-five percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are black, and 10 percent are Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime, only three percent of their victims are black. Blacks are an estimated 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery. Blacks are 2.25 times more likely to commit officially-designated hate crimes against whites than vice versa. Gangs Only 10 percent of youth gang members are white. Hispanics are 19 times more likely than whites to be members of youth gangs. Blacks are 15 times more likely, and Asians are nine times more likely. Incarceration Between 1980 and 2003 the US incarceration rate more than tripled, from 139 to 482 per 100,000, and the number of prisoners increased from 320,000 to 1.39 million. Blacks are seven times more likely to be in prison than whites. Hispanics are three times more likely.
Source.
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On August 22 2014 06:36 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:30 radiatoren wrote:On August 22 2014 06:17 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:08 Souma wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Really, so you listen to the arguments you want to (Bookwyrm's) and ignore everyone else's? Basically, yes. Whenever I raise an incendiary point, I receive too many responses for me to address. Most responses are shit anyway, so I'd rather not waste my time. I will, however, take the time to respond to well-thought-out posts or other posters whom I know will give me an interesting conversation. We all have our reputations around here. On August 22 2014 06:02 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks. Gee I wonder why. Black people must genetically not want to do well in this world! Do you not believe that environment can play a huge part in cultivating failure or something? I can tell you, as an Asian-American who grew up in a low-income, ghetto area, that a great number of other Asians who grew up in my community fell victim to the exact same things you criticize African-Americans for. It's not just a coincidence that a significant amount of people make the same choices that ultimately lead to them failing. Of course there's a correlation between socio-economic status and crime. However, you can control for that factor, and once you do, it becomes fairly obvious which groups are more problematic than others. I think you are relying too much on statistics and too little on reasoning. If crime is higher in an area, crime is higher in an area. If an area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, the area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, if an areas is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants, the area is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants. As soon as you start correlating african descendance, powerty and crime you are completely neglecting community and any other third party influences. That is very unfortunate since the descendancy should be completely irrelevant to your observation, while cultural issues are a real thing and while there are some common traits in "black culture" the tool is not accounting for the specific local differences that would cause us to avoid the stupid black vs white dichotomy. I would say geography has a reasonable chance of being better correlated with the issues rather than skincolour. I don't know what "issues" that you're describing, but studies in the US show that race -- or more specifically, the presence of blacks and hispanics -- is the best indicator of crime. EDIT: Go look at "The Color of Crime." It's conclusions paint a rather stark picture. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you took that from my earlier (satirical) post. The color of crime is not a credible source, considering it is written by a write supremacist organization, to further the message of white supremacy.
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On August 22 2014 06:36 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:30 radiatoren wrote:On August 22 2014 06:17 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:08 Souma wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Really, so you listen to the arguments you want to (Bookwyrm's) and ignore everyone else's? Basically, yes. Whenever I raise an incendiary point, I receive too many responses for me to address. Most responses are shit anyway, so I'd rather not waste my time. I will, however, take the time to respond to well-thought-out posts or other posters whom I know will give me an interesting conversation. We all have our reputations around here. On August 22 2014 06:02 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks. Gee I wonder why. Black people must genetically not want to do well in this world! Do you not believe that environment can play a huge part in cultivating failure or something? I can tell you, as an Asian-American who grew up in a low-income, ghetto area, that a great number of other Asians who grew up in my community fell victim to the exact same things you criticize African-Americans for. It's not just a coincidence that a significant amount of people make the same choices that ultimately lead to them failing. Of course there's a correlation between socio-economic status and crime. However, you can control for that factor, and once you do, it becomes fairly obvious which groups are more problematic than others. I think you are relying too much on statistics and too little on reasoning. If crime is higher in an area, crime is higher in an area. If an area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, the area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, if an areas is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants, the area is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants. As soon as you start correlating african descendance, powerty and crime you are completely neglecting community and any other third party influences. That is very unfortunate since the descendancy should be completely irrelevant to your observation, while cultural issues are a real thing and while there are some common traits in "black culture" the tool is not accounting for the specific local differences that would cause us to avoid the stupid black vs white dichotomy. I would say geography has a reasonable chance of being better correlated with the issues rather than skincolour. I don't know what "issues" that you're describing, but studies in the US show that race -- or more specifically, the presence of blacks and hispanics -- is the best indicator of crime. EDIT: Go look at "The Color of Crime." It's conclusions paint a rather stark picture. That's like saying Scandinavian countries are terribly sexist because they score the highest when it comes to domestic violence against women. Guess what? The reason for that is that Scandinavian women actually go to to the police when they experience violence.
If you'd stop putting every second black person in prison for no reason, .. maybe you'd have less black people in prison. What you're actually implying with every single one of your disgusting posts is that black people are lazy, naturally more criminal and completely at their own fault for what is happening to them, despite the fact that your country has a century long history of abusing and enslaving them.
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On August 22 2014 06:17 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:08 Souma wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Really, so you listen to the arguments you want to (Bookwyrm's) and ignore everyone else's? Basically, yes. Whenever I raise an incendiary point, I receive too many responses for me to address. Most responses are shit anyway, so I'd rather not waste my time. I will, however, take the time to respond to well-thought-out posts or other posters whom I know will give me an interesting conversation. We all have our reputations around here. Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:02 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks. Gee I wonder why. Black people must genetically not want to do well in this world! Do you not believe that environment can play a huge part in cultivating failure or something? I can tell you, as an Asian-American who grew up in a low-income, ghetto area, that a great number of other Asians who grew up in my community fell victim to the exact same things you criticize African-Americans for. It's not just a coincidence that a significant amount of people make the same choices that ultimately lead to them failing. Of course there's a correlation between socio-economic status and crime. However, you can control for that factor, and once you do, it becomes fairly obvious which groups are more problematic than others. But while socio-economic status can be a major factor, there are other major factors that can distinguish people. For instance, one thing I believe you and I can agree with is that Asian-Americans really do have a culture that really promotes education and moving up on the social ladder, and this gives Asians an edge in terms of social mobility; however, we must keep in mind that Asians (for the most part) came here with promises of a better life and have had a positive outlook from the get-go. African-Americans, however, were brought and kept here as losers - from slavery to Jim Crow, and some can argue that the war on drugs has been another major factor hampering their progress. I believe this very nuance has created some major culture gaps between Asian-Americans and African-Americans in terms of the importance of education and success.
But like others have said, black culture is the way it is because of the horrific conditions in which they are raised. This is not just about slavery from years past but what has been going on more recently. Remember, everyone starts off as a child. When that child grows up in a community that is abundant with drug-addicts, single mothers, gang/drug-related violence, non-existent fathers (due to incarceration or otherwise), the child is less likely to find the proper path to move forward. Some people blame this on schools, but these are really things that schools, on their own, cannot fully deal with. You can make a parallel of this with the situation in Central America, where kids are fleeing their unstable, dangerous environments to come to America, because they and their parents know they are on a one-way track to failure or death if they do not escape. And really, if we want to save these kids from these toxic neighborhoods one of the best things we could do would be to remove them from said environment so that they can learn to make the proper choices going forward in a more stable community. Otherwise, the only thing you can do is to fix said communities themselves, which takes even more time and effort yet needs to be done anyway.
I agree that it is possible to overcome your environment with the right mindset and with a bit of luck, but I do not think it is something we should ask of everyone who has experienced so much more than we can imagine, especially children. We certainly do not ask our veterans to man the fuck up when they come back with PTSD and other disabilities - surely we can give these kids who have been at the beck and call of unimaginable circumstances some consideration as well.
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On August 22 2014 06:43 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:36 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:30 radiatoren wrote:On August 22 2014 06:17 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:08 Souma wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Really, so you listen to the arguments you want to (Bookwyrm's) and ignore everyone else's? Basically, yes. Whenever I raise an incendiary point, I receive too many responses for me to address. Most responses are shit anyway, so I'd rather not waste my time. I will, however, take the time to respond to well-thought-out posts or other posters whom I know will give me an interesting conversation. We all have our reputations around here. On August 22 2014 06:02 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks. Gee I wonder why. Black people must genetically not want to do well in this world! Do you not believe that environment can play a huge part in cultivating failure or something? I can tell you, as an Asian-American who grew up in a low-income, ghetto area, that a great number of other Asians who grew up in my community fell victim to the exact same things you criticize African-Americans for. It's not just a coincidence that a significant amount of people make the same choices that ultimately lead to them failing. Of course there's a correlation between socio-economic status and crime. However, you can control for that factor, and once you do, it becomes fairly obvious which groups are more problematic than others. I think you are relying too much on statistics and too little on reasoning. If crime is higher in an area, crime is higher in an area. If an area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, the area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, if an areas is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants, the area is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants. As soon as you start correlating african descendance, powerty and crime you are completely neglecting community and any other third party influences. That is very unfortunate since the descendancy should be completely irrelevant to your observation, while cultural issues are a real thing and while there are some common traits in "black culture" the tool is not accounting for the specific local differences that would cause us to avoid the stupid black vs white dichotomy. I would say geography has a reasonable chance of being better correlated with the issues rather than skincolour. I don't know what "issues" that you're describing, but studies in the US show that race -- or more specifically, the presence of blacks and hispanics -- is the best indicator of crime. EDIT: Go look at "The Color of Crime." It's conclusions paint a rather stark picture. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you took that from my earlier (satirical) post. The color of crime is not a credible source, considering it is written by a write supremacist organization, to further the message of white supremacy. Didn't realize it was a white supremacist group. Has someone found that the data is bad?
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On August 22 2014 06:36 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:30 radiatoren wrote:On August 22 2014 06:17 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:08 Souma wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Really, so you listen to the arguments you want to (Bookwyrm's) and ignore everyone else's? Basically, yes. Whenever I raise an incendiary point, I receive too many responses for me to address. Most responses are shit anyway, so I'd rather not waste my time. I will, however, take the time to respond to well-thought-out posts or other posters whom I know will give me an interesting conversation. We all have our reputations around here. On August 22 2014 06:02 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks. Gee I wonder why. Black people must genetically not want to do well in this world! Do you not believe that environment can play a huge part in cultivating failure or something? I can tell you, as an Asian-American who grew up in a low-income, ghetto area, that a great number of other Asians who grew up in my community fell victim to the exact same things you criticize African-Americans for. It's not just a coincidence that a significant amount of people make the same choices that ultimately lead to them failing. Of course there's a correlation between socio-economic status and crime. However, you can control for that factor, and once you do, it becomes fairly obvious which groups are more problematic than others. I think you are relying too much on statistics and too little on reasoning. If crime is higher in an area, crime is higher in an area. If an area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, the area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, if an areas is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants, the area is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants. As soon as you start correlating african descendance, powerty and crime you are completely neglecting community and any other third party influences. That is very unfortunate since the descendancy should be completely irrelevant to your observation, while cultural issues are a real thing and while there are some common traits in "black culture" the tool is not accounting for the specific local differences that would cause us to avoid the stupid black vs white dichotomy. I would say geography has a reasonable chance of being better correlated with the issues rather than skincolour. I don't know what "issues" that you're describing, but studies in the US show that race -- or more specifically, the presence of blacks and hispanics -- is the best indicator of crime. EDIT: Go look at "The Color of Crime." It's conclusions paint a rather stark picture.
See it's blind stuff like this... Have you not realized that part of the problem is that when minorities do it it's a 'crime' and when whites do it, it's much more likely to be interpreted as a 'mistake'.
Think to the 18 yo who killed 4 people and didn't even get a week in jail. Literally because he grew up rich and white and didn't know better.
If you think there is any chance a 18 yo black kid could kill 4 white people in a drunk driving collision and not go to prison let alone jail you are delusional. And if you can't see how that kind of disproportionate BS is part of the problem you are more of a lost cause than I imagined.
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On August 22 2014 06:45 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:43 Jormundr wrote:On August 22 2014 06:36 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:30 radiatoren wrote:On August 22 2014 06:17 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:08 Souma wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Really, so you listen to the arguments you want to (Bookwyrm's) and ignore everyone else's? Basically, yes. Whenever I raise an incendiary point, I receive too many responses for me to address. Most responses are shit anyway, so I'd rather not waste my time. I will, however, take the time to respond to well-thought-out posts or other posters whom I know will give me an interesting conversation. We all have our reputations around here. On August 22 2014 06:02 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks. Gee I wonder why. Black people must genetically not want to do well in this world! Do you not believe that environment can play a huge part in cultivating failure or something? I can tell you, as an Asian-American who grew up in a low-income, ghetto area, that a great number of other Asians who grew up in my community fell victim to the exact same things you criticize African-Americans for. It's not just a coincidence that a significant amount of people make the same choices that ultimately lead to them failing. Of course there's a correlation between socio-economic status and crime. However, you can control for that factor, and once you do, it becomes fairly obvious which groups are more problematic than others. I think you are relying too much on statistics and too little on reasoning. If crime is higher in an area, crime is higher in an area. If an area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, the area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, if an areas is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants, the area is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants. As soon as you start correlating african descendance, powerty and crime you are completely neglecting community and any other third party influences. That is very unfortunate since the descendancy should be completely irrelevant to your observation, while cultural issues are a real thing and while there are some common traits in "black culture" the tool is not accounting for the specific local differences that would cause us to avoid the stupid black vs white dichotomy. I would say geography has a reasonable chance of being better correlated with the issues rather than skincolour. I don't know what "issues" that you're describing, but studies in the US show that race -- or more specifically, the presence of blacks and hispanics -- is the best indicator of crime. EDIT: Go look at "The Color of Crime." It's conclusions paint a rather stark picture. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you took that from my earlier (satirical) post. The color of crime is not a credible source, considering it is written by a write supremacist organization, to further the message of white supremacy. Didn't realize it was a white supremacist group. Has someone found that the data is bad? Let's just say that the people who are willing to cite color of crime as their primary source tend to get banned Also apparently the author is not a white supremacist. He is a self described white separatist, and there's apparently a difference.
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On August 22 2014 06:52 Jormundr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:45 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:43 Jormundr wrote:On August 22 2014 06:36 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:30 radiatoren wrote:On August 22 2014 06:17 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:08 Souma wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Really, so you listen to the arguments you want to (Bookwyrm's) and ignore everyone else's? Basically, yes. Whenever I raise an incendiary point, I receive too many responses for me to address. Most responses are shit anyway, so I'd rather not waste my time. I will, however, take the time to respond to well-thought-out posts or other posters whom I know will give me an interesting conversation. We all have our reputations around here. On August 22 2014 06:02 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote: [quote] I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks. Gee I wonder why. Black people must genetically not want to do well in this world! Do you not believe that environment can play a huge part in cultivating failure or something? I can tell you, as an Asian-American who grew up in a low-income, ghetto area, that a great number of other Asians who grew up in my community fell victim to the exact same things you criticize African-Americans for. It's not just a coincidence that a significant amount of people make the same choices that ultimately lead to them failing. Of course there's a correlation between socio-economic status and crime. However, you can control for that factor, and once you do, it becomes fairly obvious which groups are more problematic than others. I think you are relying too much on statistics and too little on reasoning. If crime is higher in an area, crime is higher in an area. If an area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, the area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, if an areas is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants, the area is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants. As soon as you start correlating african descendance, powerty and crime you are completely neglecting community and any other third party influences. That is very unfortunate since the descendancy should be completely irrelevant to your observation, while cultural issues are a real thing and while there are some common traits in "black culture" the tool is not accounting for the specific local differences that would cause us to avoid the stupid black vs white dichotomy. I would say geography has a reasonable chance of being better correlated with the issues rather than skincolour. I don't know what "issues" that you're describing, but studies in the US show that race -- or more specifically, the presence of blacks and hispanics -- is the best indicator of crime. EDIT: Go look at "The Color of Crime." It's conclusions paint a rather stark picture. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you took that from my earlier (satirical) post. The color of crime is not a credible source, considering it is written by a write supremacist organization, to further the message of white supremacy. Didn't realize it was a white supremacist group. Has someone found that the data is bad? Let's just say that the people who are willing to cite color of crime as their primary source tend to get banned Satan himself could publish it for all I care. I just want to know if the data is bad. It purports to be a simple cross-referencing of data from government databases, so short of making shit up, I don't see what the problem would be. And I don't see any arguments anywhere suggesting the data is bad.
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On August 22 2014 06:46 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:36 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:30 radiatoren wrote:On August 22 2014 06:17 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:08 Souma wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Really, so you listen to the arguments you want to (Bookwyrm's) and ignore everyone else's? Basically, yes. Whenever I raise an incendiary point, I receive too many responses for me to address. Most responses are shit anyway, so I'd rather not waste my time. I will, however, take the time to respond to well-thought-out posts or other posters whom I know will give me an interesting conversation. We all have our reputations around here. On August 22 2014 06:02 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks. Gee I wonder why. Black people must genetically not want to do well in this world! Do you not believe that environment can play a huge part in cultivating failure or something? I can tell you, as an Asian-American who grew up in a low-income, ghetto area, that a great number of other Asians who grew up in my community fell victim to the exact same things you criticize African-Americans for. It's not just a coincidence that a significant amount of people make the same choices that ultimately lead to them failing. Of course there's a correlation between socio-economic status and crime. However, you can control for that factor, and once you do, it becomes fairly obvious which groups are more problematic than others. I think you are relying too much on statistics and too little on reasoning. If crime is higher in an area, crime is higher in an area. If an area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, the area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, if an areas is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants, the area is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants. As soon as you start correlating african descendance, powerty and crime you are completely neglecting community and any other third party influences. That is very unfortunate since the descendancy should be completely irrelevant to your observation, while cultural issues are a real thing and while there are some common traits in "black culture" the tool is not accounting for the specific local differences that would cause us to avoid the stupid black vs white dichotomy. I would say geography has a reasonable chance of being better correlated with the issues rather than skincolour. I don't know what "issues" that you're describing, but studies in the US show that race -- or more specifically, the presence of blacks and hispanics -- is the best indicator of crime. EDIT: Go look at "The Color of Crime." It's conclusions paint a rather stark picture. See it's blind stuff like this... Have you not realized that part of the problem is that when minorities do it it's a 'crime' and when whites do it, it's much more likely to be interpreted as a 'mistake'. Think to the 18 yo who killed 4 people and didn't even get a week in jail. Literally because he grew up rich and white and didn't know better. If you think there is any chance a 18 yo black kid could kill 4 white people in a drunk driving collision and not go to prison let alone jail you are delusional. And if you can't see how that kind of disproportionate BS is part of the problem you are more of a lost cause than I imagined. I don't think that you can credibly attribute the gross disparities in crime rates to just prosecutorial discretion. That said, I agree that minorities (particularly blacks) tend to be over-charged and over-sentenced when compared to whites. This is it's own problem, but it certainly isn't the biggest.
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On August 22 2014 06:44 Souma wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:17 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:08 Souma wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Really, so you listen to the arguments you want to (Bookwyrm's) and ignore everyone else's? Basically, yes. Whenever I raise an incendiary point, I receive too many responses for me to address. Most responses are shit anyway, so I'd rather not waste my time. I will, however, take the time to respond to well-thought-out posts or other posters whom I know will give me an interesting conversation. We all have our reputations around here. On August 22 2014 06:02 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks. Gee I wonder why. Black people must genetically not want to do well in this world! Do you not believe that environment can play a huge part in cultivating failure or something? I can tell you, as an Asian-American who grew up in a low-income, ghetto area, that a great number of other Asians who grew up in my community fell victim to the exact same things you criticize African-Americans for. It's not just a coincidence that a significant amount of people make the same choices that ultimately lead to them failing. Of course there's a correlation between socio-economic status and crime. However, you can control for that factor, and once you do, it becomes fairly obvious which groups are more problematic than others. But while socio-economic status can be a major factor, there are other major factors that can distinguish people. For instance, one thing I believe you and I can agree with is that Asian-Americans really do have a culture that really promotes education and moving up on the social ladder, and this gives Asians an edge in terms of social mobility; however, we must keep in mind that Asians (for the most part) came here with promises of a better life and have had a positive outlook from the get-go. African-Americans, however, were brought and kept here as losers - from slavery to Jim Crow, and some can argue that the war on drugs has been another major factor hampering their progress. I believe this very nuance has created some major culture gaps between Asian-Americans and African-Americans in terms of the importance of education and success. But like others have said, black culture is the way it is because of the horrific conditions in which they are raised. This is not just about slavery from years past but what has been going on more recently. Remember, everyone starts off as a child. When that child grows up in a community that is abundant with drug-addicts, single mothers, gang/drug-related violence, non-existent fathers (due to incarceration or otherwise), the child is less likely to find the proper path to move forward. Some people blame this on schools, but these are really things that schools, on their own, cannot fully deal with. You can make a parallel of this with the situation in Central America, where kids are fleeing their unstable, dangerous environments to come to America, because they and their parents know they are on a one-way track to failure or death if they do not escape. And really, if we want to save these kids from these toxic neighborhoods one of the best things we could do would be to remove them from said environment so that they can learn to make the proper choices going forward in a more stable community. Otherwise, the only thing you can do is to fix said communities themselves, which takes even more time and effort yet needs to be done anyway. I agree that it is possible to overcome your environment with the right mindset and with a bit of luck, but I do not think it is something we should ask of everyone who has experienced so much more than we can imagine, especially children. We certainly do not ask our veterans to man the fuck up when they come back with PTSD and other disabilities - surely we can give these kids who have been at the beck and call of unimaginable circumstances some consideration as well. Yes, I agree that this is the core problem. More refined: the problem is the breakdown of the black family. So how do you fix something like this? I tend to think that it is not something that government intervention can solve. It's something that has to be handled at the community level -- maybe through churches or some other community outlet. Regardless, it is something that only the black community can fix for itself.
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On August 22 2014 06:54 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:52 Jormundr wrote:On August 22 2014 06:45 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:43 Jormundr wrote:On August 22 2014 06:36 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:30 radiatoren wrote:On August 22 2014 06:17 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:08 Souma wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Really, so you listen to the arguments you want to (Bookwyrm's) and ignore everyone else's? Basically, yes. Whenever I raise an incendiary point, I receive too many responses for me to address. Most responses are shit anyway, so I'd rather not waste my time. I will, however, take the time to respond to well-thought-out posts or other posters whom I know will give me an interesting conversation. We all have our reputations around here. On August 22 2014 06:02 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote: [quote]
Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks. Gee I wonder why. Black people must genetically not want to do well in this world! Do you not believe that environment can play a huge part in cultivating failure or something? I can tell you, as an Asian-American who grew up in a low-income, ghetto area, that a great number of other Asians who grew up in my community fell victim to the exact same things you criticize African-Americans for. It's not just a coincidence that a significant amount of people make the same choices that ultimately lead to them failing. Of course there's a correlation between socio-economic status and crime. However, you can control for that factor, and once you do, it becomes fairly obvious which groups are more problematic than others. I think you are relying too much on statistics and too little on reasoning. If crime is higher in an area, crime is higher in an area. If an area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, the area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, if an areas is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants, the area is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants. As soon as you start correlating african descendance, powerty and crime you are completely neglecting community and any other third party influences. That is very unfortunate since the descendancy should be completely irrelevant to your observation, while cultural issues are a real thing and while there are some common traits in "black culture" the tool is not accounting for the specific local differences that would cause us to avoid the stupid black vs white dichotomy. I would say geography has a reasonable chance of being better correlated with the issues rather than skincolour. I don't know what "issues" that you're describing, but studies in the US show that race -- or more specifically, the presence of blacks and hispanics -- is the best indicator of crime. EDIT: Go look at "The Color of Crime." It's conclusions paint a rather stark picture. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you took that from my earlier (satirical) post. The color of crime is not a credible source, considering it is written by a write supremacist organization, to further the message of white supremacy. Didn't realize it was a white supremacist group. Has someone found that the data is bad? Let's just say that the people who are willing to cite color of crime as their primary source tend to get banned Satan himself could publish it for all I care. I just want to know if the data is bad. It purports to be a simple cross-referencing of data from government databases, so short of making shit up, I don't see what the problem would be. And I don't see any arguments anywhere suggesting the data is bad.
Just from glancing through it the whole thing is just blatant propaganda.
None of the data is corrected for socio-economic factors at all, so it tells us nothing about the predictive power or race, contrary to what you claim. The whole black-on-white and white-on-black thing is just utterly absurd. What is wrong with you?
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On August 22 2014 06:41 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:39 radiatoren wrote:On August 22 2014 06:36 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:30 radiatoren wrote:On August 22 2014 06:17 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:08 Souma wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Really, so you listen to the arguments you want to (Bookwyrm's) and ignore everyone else's? Basically, yes. Whenever I raise an incendiary point, I receive too many responses for me to address. Most responses are shit anyway, so I'd rather not waste my time. I will, however, take the time to respond to well-thought-out posts or other posters whom I know will give me an interesting conversation. We all have our reputations around here. On August 22 2014 06:02 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks. Gee I wonder why. Black people must genetically not want to do well in this world! Do you not believe that environment can play a huge part in cultivating failure or something? I can tell you, as an Asian-American who grew up in a low-income, ghetto area, that a great number of other Asians who grew up in my community fell victim to the exact same things you criticize African-Americans for. It's not just a coincidence that a significant amount of people make the same choices that ultimately lead to them failing. Of course there's a correlation between socio-economic status and crime. However, you can control for that factor, and once you do, it becomes fairly obvious which groups are more problematic than others. I think you are relying too much on statistics and too little on reasoning. If crime is higher in an area, crime is higher in an area. If an area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, the area is predominantly inhabited by poor people, if an areas is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants, the area is predominantly inhabited by people with african descendants. As soon as you start correlating african descendance, powerty and crime you are completely neglecting community and any other third party influences. That is very unfortunate since the descendancy should be completely irrelevant to your observation, while cultural issues are a real thing and while there are some common traits in "black culture" the tool is not accounting for the specific local differences that would cause us to avoid the stupid black vs white dichotomy. I would say geography has a reasonable chance of being better correlated with the issues rather than skincolour. I don't know what "issues" that you're describing, but studies in the US show that race -- or more specifically, the presence of blacks and hispanics -- is the best indicator of crime. That is a disturbing point, if true, but could you find the studies so we can discuss them more specifically? Here: http://solargeneral.org/wp-content/uploads/library/color-of-crime.pdfShow nested quote +Major Findings: Police and the justice system are not biased against minorities. Crime Rates Blacks are seven times more likely than people of other races to commit murder, and eight times more likely to commit robbery. When blacks commit crimes of violence, they are nearly three times more likely than non-blacks to use a gun, and more than twice as likely to use a knife. Hispanics commit violent crimes at roughly three times the white rate, and Asians commit violent crimes at about one quarter the white rate. The single best indicator of violent crime levels in an area is the percentage of the population that is black and Hispanic. Interracial Crime Of the nearly 770,000 violent interracial crimes committed every year involving blacks and whites, blacks commit 85 percent and whites commit 15 percent. Blacks commit more violent crime against whites than against blacks. Forty-five percent of their victims are white, 43 percent are black, and 10 percent are Hispanic. When whites commit violent crime, only three percent of their victims are black. Blacks are an estimated 39 times more likely to commit a violent crime against a white than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery. Blacks are 2.25 times more likely to commit officially-designated hate crimes against whites than vice versa. Gangs Only 10 percent of youth gang members are white. Hispanics are 19 times more likely than whites to be members of youth gangs. Blacks are 15 times more likely, and Asians are nine times more likely. Incarceration Between 1980 and 2003 the US incarceration rate more than tripled, from 139 to 482 per 100,000, and the number of prisoners increased from 320,000 to 1.39 million. Blacks are seven times more likely to be in prison than whites. Hispanics are three times more likely. Source. As I said, if you used geographical location of home address instead of "black", "white" or hispanic, you would probably see where I am going. And no, the book doesn't take geography into account instead of by race aggregation. All it does is use statistics based on skincolor, which is the fundamental principle I am arguing against. It would also decrease the value of a lot of sources pointing to disparity in stoppages btw. I just find it unfortunate to the well-functioning black societies outthere in Ie. Downtown Atlanta to get caught in the same scoop as basically all of Bronx and Harlem in NY, Comptons in LA or East St. Louis.
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I don't think that you can credibly attribute the gross disparities in crime rates to just prosecutorial discretion. That said, I agree that minorities (particularly blacks) tend to be over-charged and over-sentenced when compared to whites. This is it's own problem, but it certainly isn't the biggest.
No one is suggesting it's just that, but it's far from insignificant. Not to mention it leads to a whole host of other problems. After getting over-policed, over-charged, and over-sentenced, they get to be over-looked for any decent job opportunities(or voting rights). At that point society has basically done all that it can (not so reasonably) do to prevent that person from rejoining society with any semblance of functionality. Setting them and their community up for failure.
Didn't realize it was a white supremacist group. Has someone found that the data is bad?
I suppose that depends on what you mean by bad?
If you mean is the data itself incorrect? No.
But if you are asking if he is using selection bias to paint an overtly racist picture intended to trick reasonable people with fear-mongering? Than yes, it's terrible.
This basic fact is so well understood among scholars of criminal justice that the preface to Minnesota's official crime data reports carries this caveat: "Racial and ethnic data must be treated with caution. ... Existing research on crime has generally shown that racial or ethnic identity is not predictive of criminal behavior with data which has been controlled for social and economic factors."
When more sophisticated methodology is employed, socioeconomic factors including poverty, education, social status and urban residence account far better for criminal behavior than race. Above all, income counts.
Taylor's decision to simply ignore these well-documented criminological findings is not his report's only flaw. Another major error — a cardinal sin in the science of statistics — is "selection bias." Although Taylor wants crime patterns to be explained by the mere presence of black people, only a contorted analysis based on a small subset of crime data is able to produce such "evidence."
What Taylor actually does is consider only a subset of data on crime — statistics on interracial crimes between blacks and whites from the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS).
For crimes of violence — the crimes Taylor focuses on — that data covers just 16 percent of the crimes committed in 1994. The result is a skewed view of the impact of race on crime that suggests that whites ought to be terrified of blacks who, in Taylor's view, present a serious threat to society.
Source
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When the Supreme Court reassembles in October, the same nine justices will gather in the robing room, but the Court itself will be different. As one example, consider the position of Justice Antonin Scalia. For a quarter of a century, Scalia has been the conservative wing’s alpha dog. By June of 2014, that seemed to have changed.
Scalia entered the October 2013 term with panache, capturing headlines with his contrived confession to a New York reporter that “I even believe in the Devil.” On the last day of the term, Scalia was not the center of attention; he wasn’t even there. (The Court’s public information staff said that he was “traveling.”) His junior colleague, Samuel Alito, delivered two of the term’s highest profile opinions, in Harris v. Quinn and Burwell v. Hobby Lobby.
There was a new sheriff in town.
Since Scalia’s appointment in 1986, he has succeeded brilliantly in seizing the spotlight, establishing himself as a conservative hero. He told one questioner to “get over it!” when asked about Bush v. Gore, and responded to pro-choice protesters with an indecent Sicilian hand gesture. Confronted politely by a gay student, he snapped, “If we cannot have moral feelings against homosexuality, can we have it against murder?”
But Scalia may have outdone himself in his 2013 dissent in the case of United States v. Windsor. For years, he has been unrelenting in opposing constitutional protections for gays and lesbians. In his 2003 dissent in Lawrence v. Texas, Scalia warned darkly that the Court majority “has largely signed on to the so-called homosexual agenda” even though “many Americans do not want persons who openly engage in homosexual conduct as partners in their business, as scoutmasters for their children, as teachers in their children’s schools, or as boarders in their homes.”
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Well I've just spent an inordinate amount time looking for one study showing crime statistics by race with economic status controlled, and I haven't seen anyone else post one here. Anyone have one?
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2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
On August 22 2014 07:12 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 06:44 Souma wrote:On August 22 2014 06:17 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:08 Souma wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Really, so you listen to the arguments you want to (Bookwyrm's) and ignore everyone else's? Basically, yes. Whenever I raise an incendiary point, I receive too many responses for me to address. Most responses are shit anyway, so I'd rather not waste my time. I will, however, take the time to respond to well-thought-out posts or other posters whom I know will give me an interesting conversation. We all have our reputations around here. On August 22 2014 06:02 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 06:01 ticklishmusic wrote:On August 22 2014 05:59 xDaunt wrote:On August 22 2014 05:46 Souma wrote: Did you intentionally skip over the part where people debunked your ludicrous assumption that blacks and Asians experienced the same hurdles? I don't need to respond to every post, and as far as I am concerned, nothing's been debunked. Bookwyrm's arguments basically confirm my position that the current state of the black community is more the result of their own internal problems than any kind of existential racism that still exists. Funnytoss raised his point the last time that we went down this road, and though I found it interesting the first time, it wasn't backed up with anything, so I'm not inclined to rehash the same points again. Did you skip the part where it was mentioned that not all Asians are the same? It's irrelevant. You can look at any particular heritage/nationality, and they're all doing better than blacks. Gee I wonder why. Black people must genetically not want to do well in this world! Do you not believe that environment can play a huge part in cultivating failure or something? I can tell you, as an Asian-American who grew up in a low-income, ghetto area, that a great number of other Asians who grew up in my community fell victim to the exact same things you criticize African-Americans for. It's not just a coincidence that a significant amount of people make the same choices that ultimately lead to them failing. Of course there's a correlation between socio-economic status and crime. However, you can control for that factor, and once you do, it becomes fairly obvious which groups are more problematic than others. But while socio-economic status can be a major factor, there are other major factors that can distinguish people. For instance, one thing I believe you and I can agree with is that Asian-Americans really do have a culture that really promotes education and moving up on the social ladder, and this gives Asians an edge in terms of social mobility; however, we must keep in mind that Asians (for the most part) came here with promises of a better life and have had a positive outlook from the get-go. African-Americans, however, were brought and kept here as losers - from slavery to Jim Crow, and some can argue that the war on drugs has been another major factor hampering their progress. I believe this very nuance has created some major culture gaps between Asian-Americans and African-Americans in terms of the importance of education and success. But like others have said, black culture is the way it is because of the horrific conditions in which they are raised. This is not just about slavery from years past but what has been going on more recently. Remember, everyone starts off as a child. When that child grows up in a community that is abundant with drug-addicts, single mothers, gang/drug-related violence, non-existent fathers (due to incarceration or otherwise), the child is less likely to find the proper path to move forward. Some people blame this on schools, but these are really things that schools, on their own, cannot fully deal with. You can make a parallel of this with the situation in Central America, where kids are fleeing their unstable, dangerous environments to come to America, because they and their parents know they are on a one-way track to failure or death if they do not escape. And really, if we want to save these kids from these toxic neighborhoods one of the best things we could do would be to remove them from said environment so that they can learn to make the proper choices going forward in a more stable community. Otherwise, the only thing you can do is to fix said communities themselves, which takes even more time and effort yet needs to be done anyway. I agree that it is possible to overcome your environment with the right mindset and with a bit of luck, but I do not think it is something we should ask of everyone who has experienced so much more than we can imagine, especially children. We certainly do not ask our veterans to man the fuck up when they come back with PTSD and other disabilities - surely we can give these kids who have been at the beck and call of unimaginable circumstances some consideration as well. Yes, I agree that this is the core problem. More refined: the problem is the breakdown of the black family. So how do you fix something like this? I tend to think that it is not something that government intervention can solve. It's something that has to be handled at the community level -- maybe through churches or some other community outlet. Regardless, it is something that only the black community can fix for itself. I believe that, with things as they are, you need both. If the government is the only one to intervene to try and correct the problem, it won't be as effective if the people themselves aren't receptive. Likewise, the black community is fighting a major uphill battle and needs assistance. This, like many other issues, has to be addressed through multiple angles - on a legislative and local/personal level.
First thing the government can do is deal with the drug problem better (we've been through this plenty of times in this thread so I won't go over all the details). The government can provide community outlets such as churches and schools with funding and professional assistance to help counsel and treat drug addiction and possibly set up daycares. We also need to establish a more flexible education system that will allow kids to pursue other means to get a decent job without having to go through the university system. Once the necessary assistance is there, the black communities have to step up and take advantage of it all. It would require a lot of outreach, a lot of willpower, etc. but so long as the right tools are available, given time, I think these neighborhoods can improve. They will also (ironically) probably need decent police assistance to make sure that the community can root out the bad seeds without having to fear for their lives and their children's lives.
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WASHINGTON — When President Obama announced in June that he planned to bypass congressional gridlock and overhaul the nation’s immigration system on his own, he did so in a most public way: a speech in the White House Rose Garden.
Since then, the process of drafting what will likely be the only significant immigration changes of his presidency — and his most consequential use of executive power — has been conducted almost entirely behind closed doors, where lobbyists and interest groups invited to the White House are making their case out of public view.
Mr. Obama’s increasingly expansive appetite for the use of unilateral action on issues including immigration, tax policy and gay rights has emboldened activists and businesses to flock to the administration with their policy wish lists. It also has opened the president, already facing charges of executive overreach, to criticism that he is presiding over opaque policy-making, with the potential to reward political backers at the expense of other interests, including some on the losing side who are threatening to sue.
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On August 22 2014 08:05 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +WASHINGTON — When President Obama announced in June that he planned to bypass congressional gridlock and overhaul the nation’s immigration system on his own, he did so in a most public way: a speech in the White House Rose Garden.
Since then, the process of drafting what will likely be the only significant immigration changes of his presidency — and his most consequential use of executive power — has been conducted almost entirely behind closed doors, where lobbyists and interest groups invited to the White House are making their case out of public view.
Mr. Obama’s increasingly expansive appetite for the use of unilateral action on issues including immigration, tax policy and gay rights has emboldened activists and businesses to flock to the administration with their policy wish lists. It also has opened the president, already facing charges of executive overreach, to criticism that he is presiding over opaque policy-making, with the potential to reward political backers at the expense of other interests, including some on the losing side who are threatening to sue. Source If the republicans are upset about it they should have done something about it themselves.
If executive power is the only way anything changes in a situation that is unanimously seen as in need of fixing then look to no one but yourself as to why that is the case.
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On August 22 2014 08:08 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2014 08:05 Introvert wrote:WASHINGTON — When President Obama announced in June that he planned to bypass congressional gridlock and overhaul the nation’s immigration system on his own, he did so in a most public way: a speech in the White House Rose Garden.
Since then, the process of drafting what will likely be the only significant immigration changes of his presidency — and his most consequential use of executive power — has been conducted almost entirely behind closed doors, where lobbyists and interest groups invited to the White House are making their case out of public view.
Mr. Obama’s increasingly expansive appetite for the use of unilateral action on issues including immigration, tax policy and gay rights has emboldened activists and businesses to flock to the administration with their policy wish lists. It also has opened the president, already facing charges of executive overreach, to criticism that he is presiding over opaque policy-making, with the potential to reward political backers at the expense of other interests, including some on the losing side who are threatening to sue. Source If the republicans are upset about it they should have done something about it themselves. If executive power is the only way anything changes in a situation that is unanimously seen as in need of fixing then look to no one but yourself as to why that is the case.
We've tread this ground before.
However, the article was emphasizing the influence of special interest groups in helping to craft these orders and memoranda.
So the lobbyist influence is the fault of Republicans? Ok.
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