Under the Radar: Neagle - Page 2
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LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
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arb
Noobville17915 Posts
On June 12 2013 19:31 LRM)TechnicS wrote: I already have spoken with Yoda and I promised him to show him proofs but I want more opinions on the matter. Unfortunately, I forgot to contact iCCup admins at first, but am in the process of doing so. you got pretty overwhelming evidence tbh. should be able to link him this thread and it give more than enough proof bro. | ||
Letherebelight
Korea (South)29 Posts
We should follow 'Guilty Until Proven Innocent'. Cause there's no clear proof but only belief. Flash maybe blamed as map hacker if he participated this tour lol anonymously. "oh how did he know that? map hacker!" "He always do no barracks double command not whatching zerg's build!" watch Flash's VODs. He normally uses counter without scout. Fun. | ||
Sinedd
Poland7052 Posts
this game will never stop to amaze me.. if this guy really is a hacker that is, of course.. | ||
t0ssboy
Bulgaria679 Posts
On June 12 2013 20:02 Letherebelight wrote: if you say he clearly maphacks, you should have clear evidences. Those you wrote are just guesses. Isn't it? We should follow 'Guilty Until Proven Innocent'. Cause there's no clear proof but only belief. Flash maybe blamed as map hacker if he participated this tour lol anonymously. "oh how did he know that? map hacker!" "He always do no barracks double command not whatching zerg's build!" watch Flash's VODs. He normally uses counter without scout. Fun. Hi neagle | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
Also, I doubt Flash plays in Defiler Tournaments. Unless skzlime says otherwise. | ||
Todd P
42 Posts
On June 12 2013 20:02 Letherebelight wrote: if you say he clearly maphacks, you should have clear evidences. Those you wrote are just guesses. Isn't it? We should follow 'Guilty Until Proven Innocent'. Cause there's no clear proof but only belief. Flash maybe blamed as map hacker if he participated this tour lol anonymously. "oh how did he know that? map hacker!" "He always do no barracks double command not whatching zerg's build!" watch Flash's VODs. He normally uses counter without scout. Fun. This is not true. Most of Flash's games are 1 barracks fast expansion. In addtion then does Flash always scout with 2 SCVs vZ, the reason he plants his command center, before scouting Z, is because he knows the timing of the zerlings from 9pool and overpool. You'll have enough time to react if you do not scout Z in thie first try. Secondly, Flash was/is very good at defending, most of the other programers do not use those kind of builds versus him, because they'll be at a disadvanteous position doing a slightly risky build. If you look at Flash's vZ you'll see that that almost everyone opens 12 hatch. You'll only find a odd number of other builds. | ||
Letherebelight
Korea (South)29 Posts
The evidences you suggested is just made by your opinion, which is at very low-level. Your BW competance is proving that. You are not gosugamer right? Iccup rank cannot be the standard. Cause its level too low. You must be seen Sziky overwhelmed by sea... and sea even cannot break SSL round2. You are not even understanding build orders and common game sense. | ||
Letherebelight
Korea (South)29 Posts
On June 12 2013 20:17 Todd P wrote: This is not true. Most of Flash's games are 1 barracks fast expansion. In addtion then does Flash always scout with 2 SCVs vZ, the reason he plants his command center, before scouting Z, is because he knows the timing of the zerlings from 9pool and overpool. You'll have enough time to react if you do not scout Z in thie first try. Secondly, Flash was/is very good at defending, most of the other programers do not use those kind of builds versus him, because they'll be at a disadvanteous position doing a slightly risky build. If you look at Flash's vZ you'll see that that almost everyone opens 12 hatch. You'll only find a odd number of other builds. That's because 12hatchery is normal zvt lol | ||
t0ssboy
Bulgaria679 Posts
On June 12 2013 20:22 Letherebelight wrote: I and other some gosu koreans are reading this and laughing now... cause this article is perfectly tilted to your point of view. 13nexus 13forge, or 13forege 13nexus, 13forege 13cannon nexus is common build order in FS, especially in 7 and 1 'o clock. Protoss set 1probe to prevent from zergling without scout, that's the build order. You are now insisting map hack because of that play, It's ridiculous for us. In our point of view, you very seems to be noob. Have you ever participated in korean progamer leagues? or your fish ladder higher than 1500~1600 or something? Then don't argue with game content, it's out of your ability. The evidences you suggested is just made by your opinion, which is at very low-level. Your BW competance is proving that. You are not gosugamer right? Iccup rank cannot be the standard. Cause its level too low. You must be seen Sziky overwhelmed by sea... and sea even cannot break SSL round2. You are not even understanding build orders and common game sense. C'mon i probably speak better korean that these guys speak english. | ||
Todd P
42 Posts
On June 12 2013 20:23 Letherebelight wrote: That's because 12hatchery is normal zvt lol Then stop saying he counters blindly. Because he just follows his gameplan. | ||
reps)Largo
Russian Federation192 Posts
this thread seems to be interesting for me so I've decided to check it in a proper way. First of all I'd like to say that to educe maphack isn't that easy if only the hacker is a full idiot. In the most of incidents you can't say "it's a 100% clear example of abuse". So, who is Neagle? He's like B+ player. That's enough to win one of the DTs not facing players like Sziky. He used to play pVt, pVz, zVp. Neagle has tried to win DT at least 3 times: #57-59. The results were top24, top2, top1. I checked the reps from the #57 and 58 tours to see how he is doing the game. There were some semirandom reps with different players. Also I used bwchart to make sure it's a single person playing on his acc. Important notes: - pVz opening with fast exp: he's scouting with the 1st pylon builder - pVt: he's scouting; he's not countering his opponent's builds every time, more than that he bas behind several times unlike the last tour matches; in the game 20+ mins long he made 7 obses and placed them all over the map I can say there were no reasons to be suspicious. For example, in the crucial game vs Arcneon he picked Terran (I believe that's because of map — it was LT) and just died to the dark templars. -- So that's pretty standart. And now we gonna talk about the last tour which has been won by him. I made a big analysis and checked every fucking game. Warning: all of these facts are not 100% evidence of anything, just the facts. I'm a terran player so I could get something wrong in pVz; as you know, details means a lot at the high level of playing. Also I could just made a mistake somewhere, however I've tried to be mindful. Some of the "things" could be explained by the great experience and game sense of our hero. pVz vs Whistler (9pool in the brackets): 1. pretty standart, he died cause of bad micro 2. pylon-forge-nexus without scouting (cross resps); slightly suspicious how he chose the way for his shuttle — right over his natural expo, the standart place to put your overlord (no corsairs were built) 3. no scouting expo build with pretty fast +1 attack pVz vs Moro: 1. no scouting forge-nexus build; "random" probe saw the lings coming; mutas poping-up = immediately +3 cannons on main and +1 on the expo; once hydra den was finished, Neagle made the obs 2. once lings gone to attack protoss exp, hidden zealot moved to zerg's main (no scouting was made); blind 2 stargates building vs 2 bases spire; once spire was denied Neagle didn't build a single cannon to protect both of his mineral lines pVz vs Zaraki: 1. "lucky" scouting; mass goons build, but insta-cannons vs poping-up mutas 2. standart scouting and build on the 2-players map; overrated his sairs with +1, build a single cannon on the main and was about to die; he didn't scout zerg's tech with probes and corsairs (even didn't try to go to the main) — he was just waiting for mutas on his main with 1 cannon and sairs over the nexus pVt vs Justice: 1. "lucky" scouting; before probe came, he decided to make a zealot (terran wall wasn't correct — not zealots-tight); he continued with no standart 2nd gate-nexus(standart after zeal I mean), but built a robo and a ribo+2nd gate while terran was pumping tanks+marines+medic from 1 base 2. Justice is not terran anymore, he's zerg; what you think? Neagle scout after the 1st pylon right to zerg's base to see the 4pool coming pVt vs Cryoc: 1. no scouting; 1 gate-robo (terran doing a standart build 1 fac-cc) 2. no scouting; 1 gate-nexus (vs standart terran BO); 2 base arb with late obs (too late considering his early enough robo); shuttle with 1 dark to terrans main (still no obs!) without turrets and comsat 3. no scouting; 1 gate-nexus (vs standart terran BO) pVt vs Terror: 1. no scouting, 2 gates vs terran barrack-cc (while scouting probe changed its direction with no reason from correct to the wrong; the same time goon didn't scout — it was waiting to kill scv first, then go) 2. toss made a 2nd gate when terran moved 2nd scv to his own exp to make a bunker after factory; more important thing — goon didn't chase the SCV, also Neale went to terran with 3 goons, and the 4th one was blocking the ramp waiting for hidden vulture pVt vs Weekly - the final: 1. no scouting, 2 gates vs barrack-cc -- So the question is: maphacka or not? Obv Neagle can be genius, 1950+ on fish, one of the Indigo children or just got his best day in career with luck factor ~100%. But for me that's way too many coincidences and evident tendencies. PS replays of all the DTs are available on defiler.ru so you can try it as I did. | ||
reps)Largo
Russian Federation192 Posts
On June 12 2013 19:29 LRM)TechnicS wrote: Brief summary: + Show Spoiler + Game 1 vs Moro: blind cross position greedy build, way too early blind counter against moro's lings, perfect defences against mutas (moro makes lots of mutas) Game 2 vs Moro: heavy blind counter against moro's strategy, no scouting, lollish 1st zealot moving timing, strange way to move corsairs. Game 1 vs Zaraki: scout from the first time into perfect defences against mutas (zaraki makes only mutas) Game 2 vs Zaraki: Blind counter with super early +1 of sairs when zaraki is making early 2nd gas on natural, highly suspicious movements with the army. Game1 vs Whistler: scout from first time, chobo play in a non-standard situation Game 2 vs Whistler: blind cross position greedy build, super suspicious scouting and probe pulling, blind 0 defences against mutas (opponent makes no mutas), super suspicious fast 4 zealot drop - moves so freely on the map like he knows there are no scourges Game 3 vs Whistler: blind cross position greedy build into fast win Game 1 vs Justice: scout from first try Game 2 vs Justice: Scout from the first time + super early blind forge vs 4pool Game 1 vs Cryoc: Blind massarmy counter to cryoc's doings, super suspicious shuttle/reaver movement exactly when cryoc moves out, suspicious army movements throughout the whole game, complaining about map being unfair... (lol) Game 2 vs Cryoc: No scout, absolutely blind cross position super greedy build into more timed greedy decisions Game 3 vs Cryoc: No scout into 'finding' his opponent following an scv with 1st goon. This is a brief of analysis of the 15 players from the DT #59. Notice the patterns? I'm sure there's a lot more, but when he is cross positions he goes for blind counters or blind greedy counters. When his opponent is next to him he scouts from the first time in prevailing amount of cases. Neagle clearly maphacks. The quesiton is why are letherebelight and dredredre all of a sudden so insistent on defending him? What do you know about him? Where do you know him from and how are you guys close? wow, it seems we made the same job (it took a lot of time for me to watch the reps — i didn't see the new comments). However now we got at least 2 "extensive" views on this | ||
LRM)TechnicS
Bulgaria1565 Posts
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Letherebelight
Korea (South)29 Posts
21probe two gate is no the counter of barracks CC. ... lol it's bad to that. he must have made 13zealot to counter CC. lol you noob | ||
Letherebelight
Korea (South)29 Posts
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Letherebelight
Korea (South)29 Posts
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zimp
Hungary950 Posts
On June 12 2013 09:30 arb wrote: Usually i dont think if you watch a bunch of replays of someone known to be hacking its not hard to figure out. One or two coincidences a game or something isnt much to worry about(remember when people said flash was maphacking? lol) but when it becomes 5 6 7 and they occur literally every game you should be able to pretty firmly put someone down as a maphacker. cool, we can find a maphacker - if he uses it not cleverly and too much - with hours of work - days after a tournament is held | ||
Rus_Brain
Russian Federation1888 Posts
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kerpal
United Kingdom2695 Posts
On June 12 2013 21:41 Letherebelight wrote: I was neagle's clan member, in the west server, and I've heard that he recently started to play BW again after 3years rest. Before then he was famous between korean amateurs that he won active progamers like fantasy and leta in some clan leagues... he once was at pro-level. http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/Neagle.html but his iccup profile suggests that actually he used to be pretty bad. When was iccup season 14? he played almost 200 games and only got C+ on iccup, while taking games from fantasy in pvt on korean servers? I suppose you're going to say now that this is a shared account that his cat sometimes plays on. | ||
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