Hopefully this will be the first and last thread of this kind in the next months to follow.
Introduction
Player Neagle, as of recently, is being an active participant in the sunday SC:BW Defiler Tournaments that are organized by defiler.ru. I haven't had the opportunity to play him yet, but his playstyle does raise an eyebrow amongst some of our fellow BW players - such as uT)WhistleR and sas.dRaW. In the Defiler Tour #59 [75$] thread at BW tournaments. + Show Spoiler +
they suggest (and not without proofs) that this player actually maphacks. Their exact words: + Show Spoiler +
On June 11 2013 08:31 uT)WhistleR wrote: winner(neagle) is a hacker, me and my friend richie analyzed replays after the tour, if u wanna do it for urself check out the zvp on beltway(dont remember vs who) and the grandfinal
cant belive anyone else, except for draw noticed this
On June 11 2013 08:31 uT)WhistleR wrote: winner(neagle) is a hacker, me and my friend richie analyzed replays after the tour, if u wanna do it for urself check out the zvp on beltway(dont remember vs who) and the grandfinal
cant belive anyone else, except for draw noticed this
which rep? the one where neagle used two obs to get to terran main ?
he said ZvP, and I noticed his play style is VERY strange for his level. i.e against cryoc he makes 5observers on resonance II and doesn't even send them into the map, they idle @ his natural. Another example is his game sense, he seems to blind counter very consistently vs everyone, and move directly to counter armies. Another examples is against Weekly in the final when weekly sends to 12 oclock and he's already on his way to intercept.
edit: also he do 2gateway vs terror both games, but 1 game he leaves goon on ramp when terror opened differently however he didn't scout so he wouldn't know its a different opening. against cryoc on FS he did a completely different opening which was a completely greedy blind counter to what cryoc was doing, no ob ever entered his base. a dt in a shuttle entered @ like 8th minute.
In that same tournament (DT #59) also happened to be a player named KissingUr who later, after playing 3 games against me, was confirmed to maphack, multicommand and multiunit control hack. Needless to say he got banned from the tournament pretty quickly alongside his IP iCCup ban. Unlike the ' kissingUR' case, Neagle's one required a bit of analysis.
A handful of analysis
In the span of some hours I managed to analyze 15 replays that all happen to be from Defiler Tour #59 and are of the player Neagle. Indeed, there are 38 more replays left @defiler.ru that could be further analyzed, but for me, these are more than enough to make valid conclusions. Obviously, if anyone wants to join with a helping hand and another valid opinion on the matter, I'm open for further talks.
Now onto the games. Analyzed games are many and I will try to add screenshots on the most important moments + Show Spoiler +
Players are cross positioned. Neagle decides to make the scout as late as possible and throw down a nexus before his first 2 cannons. Game goes to the 05:22 mark where even though Neagle has seen nothing but standard 3 expansion play with 6 lings on speed of the opponent, he decides to place down a 3rd cannon. Eventually that cannon happens to be a very efficient blind counter to the lings he couldnt see with his scouting probe. He sends another one that gets sniped fast by those same 6 lings. Before getting sniped Neagle pulls out (before the 2nd probe dies) probes to his already well defended exp.
Yellow circle shows unscouted 8-10 lings of moro, green circle shows dying probe to 6 lings.
2nd probe dies, probes starting to be pulled
Unsuccess for Moro
Easy/fast scout of moro's new expansion later
Overall Neagle had excellent defence against mutas even before he actually saw that moro made any. Moro lost his 3rd exp and made only mutas and lost.
Ro64, Neagle vs Moro Game 2, Map: Fighting spirit (top1 proof, please stop by!)
This is a quickie, but nastie - Neagle scouts cross positions. He finds moro on the next try and sees 2 lings and not a dime more. He hides his 1st probe and 1st zealot on 12 o’clock and on the 02:56 mark starts waiting.
In the meantime he doesn't scout for zerg's 3rd expansion, he doesn’t feel the need to know anything additional about the zerg’s doings. He proceeds with laying down super fast 2 cannons on his natural (in a position that is very good only against zerglings) even though he is making zealots at all times (and had scouted just 2 lings). He even places a 2nd pylon at his natural before his nexus making a good wall against zerglings.
After a good minute of waiting, @ 03:50 Neagle decides to make a move with his 1st zealot. Luckily for Neagle, the zealot moves in right after the zerglings move out of moro's natural.
Luckily for Neagle, moro is playing zergling heavy from 2 hatcheries (no 3rd exp) with relatively fast speed and goes to attack the super prepared natural of Neagle and has 0 success of taking it down. As we can see on the minimap, the 1st zealot of neagle is in moro's main. Wat a graet move!
Game continues with moro being super behind and Neagle continuing onto taking perfect decisions with no information against whatever moro does. Neagle wins 2:0.
In Ro32, Neagle plays vs Whistler on Fighting spirit 3 times. + Show Spoiler +
1st game he (Neagle) scouts him successfully from the first time. The game is not long and WhistleR wins by makings lots of lings vs Neagle.
In 2nd game they are cross positions, Neagle decides to go for relatively very fast nexus again and throws down a really early cannon. What's interesting is that he blindly pulls out probes to defend against the unseen lings of the opponent. Also he scouts halfway through 1 -> 5 o’clock and suddenly decides to go and scout 7 o’clock (where Whistler actually is) check that sweet skills.
Where are the lings? Luckily they are chilling a bit, near Neagle’s natural but out of his sight.
Later that game he makes 0 defences against mutas while his opponent makes no mutas at all. Good decision! He also chooses to go for a super fast 4 zealot drop which is totally great but instead to go to his 4th expansion (11o’clock) from this position he goes to 7 o’clock. Not only does he fools around freely with his shuttle (opponent has spire for a long time but has 0 scourges on the map, again luckily for Neagle), but he also doesn’t scout the 4th exp at all.
In Game 3, both players are cross positioned and again Neagle decides to play for a greedy build with no scout, super early gas, late cannon and very early nexus which eventually leads him to win the game.
Ro16 Neagle vs Zaraki Game 1, Map: La Mancha + Ro8 Neagle vs Justice Game 2, Map: La Mancha + Show Spoiler +
Interesting is that both games Neagle scouts their opponent from the very first try on the exact same map – La Mancha. What’s is more interesting is that against Justice (who happens to be 4pooling) he sends out his 2nd probe in a manner to make the forge as soon as possible, while against Zaraki he slows it way more down. 1:24 probe goes out vs 9p, 1:24 probe makes a forge vs 4pool. Nice coincidence, sir!
Neagle decides that this is the game to go for super early +1 on sairs, which perfectly coincides with zaraki placing a 2nd gas at his natural which obviously Neagle has no clear vision of.
On June 12 2013 05:31 uT)WhistleR wrote: would a protoss stack 2 observers and send them into terran main over 2 turrets when terran goes m&m without even scouting that there was turrets? dont know much about pvt but that in itself seems very suspicious to me
Ro4 Neagle vs Cryoc (for me, here comes the real fun) Game 1 @ Resonance II
Cryoc goes for a 2base push and he gets blind countered by Neagle’s massing units. But let’s forget about that and that Neagle has some sweet understanding where exactly cryoc’s mines and turrets are (even though he hasn’t seen them) and check this sweet homie out.
Shuttle + reebo and goon stay in front of Cryoc’s natural from the beginning of the 9th minute of the game, but to be more precise – 09:38. Suddenly, around 1 minute later (10:33), the shuttle wakes up when seeing nothing in sight and drops the reaver. Not only is he dropped, but he slowly starts moving down towards cryoc’s natural and attacking for the protoss glory! Luckily, although it’s not in his sight, that’s the exact moment when cryoc is moving out. Even though he firstly sees vultures coming out, that reebo is not satisfied with hitting those weaklings, instead the reaver is heading straight towards the tanks and hits first those (last pic).
Brutal macro blind counter, it’s not even funny or needed to explain. Just go and see the replay @ defiler.ru.
Closing words Overall, there are many more moments that are suspicious in his play and I think there are more moves that lead to the proper, in my opinion, conclusion that Neagle maphacked in DT #59. All in all, he macro blind countered heavily, made really suspicious micro managements, scouted early too succesfully and had too good of an army positiong relative to opponent's army. Interestingly enough, in this very same tournament was caught another hacker - kissingur - for maphack, multicommand hack and multiunit control hack. How probable is all that happening in the same tournament? First there was some Cindy guy, next kissingur, now Neagle, and maybe many more that we didn't bother checking so thoroughly? Do we have to investigate suspicious players with South Korean flags so often at all or do we make something in order to avoid that? For me, Neagle is a clear case of maphack abuse. How about you? Please download the replays @ http://defiler.ru/tourney/?t=293 -> download winner's reppack, watch closely and see for yourself and post your opinion and/or feedback here. If there are further (and that I find strong) proofs showing Neagle maphacked in DT #59 or he didn't, I will add them into the OP.
why are you going public about this and don't connect to ICCUP staff, whom you want to ban him, or Yoda, who runs defiler, in the first place with all this work you put in? A TL Forum discussion wont much likely bring this thing a bit closer to be settled, or will it?
Edit: i read up on the whole discussion on the defiler thread and what was striking to me is how very suspicious this "Lettherebelight" guy acted. He is definitely not Korean, given how he articulates himself and his grammar. And he seems overly protective and at the same time very arrogant. Leads me to belief, there is something wrong with that pal.
On June 12 2013 08:01 Cele wrote: why are you going public about this and don't connect to ICCUP staff, whom you want to ban him, or Yoda, who runs defiler, in the first place with all this work you put in? A TL Forum discussion wont much likely bring this thing a bit closer to be settled, or will it?
Edit: i read up on the whole discussion on the defiler thread and what was striking to me is how very suspicious this "Lettherebelight" guy acted. He is definitely not Korean, given how he articulates himself and his grammar. And he seems overly protective and at the same time very arrogant. Leads me to belief, there is something wrong with that pal.
last shadow?!
There is some very serious evidence that he is hacking though, id def send this to iCCup and the Defiler admins personally.
interesting evidence. To play devil's advocate, maybe he's got amazing game sense and knows his opponent's styles as in he knows mass zerglings for Moro thus sticking to cannons and zealots? That wouldn't explain moving the zealot right as the zerglings get to his base though lol. Anyways, as mentioned, best to give the evidence to iCCup and let them do as they see fit(likely ban if he is believed to be a hacker).
well if u use a program that detect the first person of replays. and follow his camera action i think will be easy to detect. sadly there is not this program
On June 12 2013 09:08 zimp wrote: noone can write a program that can detect maphack?
Usually i dont think if you watch a bunch of replays of someone known to be hacking its not hard to figure out. One or two coincidences a game or something isnt much to worry about(remember when people said flash was maphacking? lol) but when it becomes 5 6 7 and they occur literally every game you should be able to pretty firmly put someone down as a maphacker.
Upon coming across the thread, I thought it would be about promising newcomer in foreign Brood War scene. Didn't take long for that assumption to shatter. Truly unfortunate.
On June 12 2013 09:31 Jumperer wrote: I've been hacking since the beginning of broodwar. My idol Lance Armstrong told me that if you dont hack you'll lose to hackers. Also when new antihacks technology comes up I let my good friend DraW play on my name.
I also fix foreign matches in my spare time. I decided to let IFU beat Sas once to make extra money.
On June 12 2013 09:08 zimp wrote: noone can write a program that can detect maphack?
Usually i dont think if you watch a bunch of replays of someone known to be hacking its not hard to figure out. One or two coincidences a game or something isnt much to worry about(remember when people said flash was maphacking? lol) but when it becomes 5 6 7 and they occur literally every game you should be able to pretty firmly put someone down as a maphacker.
On June 12 2013 09:10 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: well if u use a program that detect the first person of replays. and follow his camera action i think will be easy to detect. sadly there is not this program
On June 12 2013 09:10 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: well if u use a program that detect the first person of replays. and follow his camera action i think will be easy to detect. sadly there is not this program
First person replay plugin is already made
u have it?! i found bwobserver but it dont work well
On June 12 2013 18:51 Letherebelight wrote: All the well-perfoming players are questioned as map hack. Iloveoov once was, so was flash.. somewhat pitiful
On June 12 2013 18:51 Letherebelight wrote: All the well-perfoming players are questioned as map hack. Iloveoov once was, so was flash.. somewhat pitiful
yeah but those were just jokes.. because they.. ya know had people standing behind them watching them.. ya know?
Game 1 vs Moro: blind cross position greedy build, way too early blind counter against moro's lings, perfect defences against mutas (moro makes lots of mutas) Game 2 vs Moro: heavy blind counter against moro's strategy, no scouting, lollish 1st zealot moving timing, strange way to move corsairs. Game 1 vs Zaraki: scout from the first time into perfect defences against mutas (zaraki makes only mutas) Game 2 vs Zaraki: Blind counter with super early +1 of sairs when zaraki is making early 2nd gas on natural, highly suspicious movements with the army. Game1 vs Whistler: scout from first time, chobo play in a non-standard situation Game 2 vs Whistler: blind cross position greedy build, super suspicious scouting and probe pulling, blind 0 defences against mutas (opponent makes no mutas), super suspicious fast 4 zealot drop - moves so freely on the map like he knows there are no scourges Game 3 vs Whistler: blind cross position greedy build into fast win Game 1 vs Justice: scout from first try Game 2 vs Justice: Scout from the first time + super early blind forge vs 4pool Game 1 vs Cryoc: Blind massarmy counter to cryoc's doings, super suspicious shuttle/reaver movement exactly when cryoc moves out, suspicious army movements throughout the whole game, complaining about map being unfair... (lol) Game 2 vs Cryoc: No scout, absolutely blind cross position super greedy build into more timed greedy decisions Game 3 vs Cryoc: No scout into 'finding' his opponent following an scv with 1st goon.
This is a brief of analysis of the 15 players from the DT #59. Notice the patterns? I'm sure there's a lot more, but when he is cross positions he goes for blind counters or blind greedy counters. When his opponent is next to him he scouts from the first time in prevailing amount of cases. Neagle clearly maphacks. The quesiton is why are letherebelight and dredredre all of a sudden so insistent on defending him? What do you know about him? Where do you know him from and how are you guys close?
I already have spoken with Yoda and I promised him to show him proofs but I want more opinions on the matter. Unfortunately, I forgot to contact iCCup admins at first, but am in the process of doing so.
On June 12 2013 19:31 LRM)TechnicS wrote: I already have spoken with Yoda and I promised him to show him proofs but I want more opinions on the matter. Unfortunately, I forgot to contact iCCup admins at first, but am in the process of doing so.
you got pretty overwhelming evidence tbh. should be able to link him this thread and it give more than enough proof bro.
if you say he clearly maphacks, you should have clear evidences. Those you wrote are just guesses. Isn't it? We should follow 'Guilty Until Proven Innocent'. Cause there's no clear proof but only belief. Flash maybe blamed as map hacker if he participated this tour lol anonymously. "oh how did he know that? map hacker!" "He always do no barracks double command not whatching zerg's build!"
watch Flash's VODs. He normally uses counter without scout. Fun.
On June 12 2013 20:02 Letherebelight wrote: if you say he clearly maphacks, you should have clear evidences. Those you wrote are just guesses. Isn't it? We should follow 'Guilty Until Proven Innocent'. Cause there's no clear proof but only belief. Flash maybe blamed as map hacker if he participated this tour lol anonymously. "oh how did he know that? map hacker!" "He always do no barracks double command not whatching zerg's build!"
watch Flash's VODs. He normally uses counter without scout. Fun.
These are clear evidences because they are facts. It even has pictures and a desktop background which is approved by ninazerg. It's diligently written in the OP and in the Brief summary. Also, I doubt Flash plays in Defiler Tournaments. Unless skzlime says otherwise.
On June 12 2013 20:02 Letherebelight wrote: if you say he clearly maphacks, you should have clear evidences. Those you wrote are just guesses. Isn't it? We should follow 'Guilty Until Proven Innocent'. Cause there's no clear proof but only belief. Flash maybe blamed as map hacker if he participated this tour lol anonymously. "oh how did he know that? map hacker!" "He always do no barracks double command not whatching zerg's build!"
watch Flash's VODs. He normally uses counter without scout. Fun.
This is not true. Most of Flash's games are 1 barracks fast expansion. In addtion then does Flash always scout with 2 SCVs vZ, the reason he plants his command center, before scouting Z, is because he knows the timing of the zerlings from 9pool and overpool. You'll have enough time to react if you do not scout Z in thie first try.
Secondly, Flash was/is very good at defending, most of the other programers do not use those kind of builds versus him, because they'll be at a disadvanteous position doing a slightly risky build. If you look at Flash's vZ you'll see that that almost everyone opens 12 hatch. You'll only find a odd number of other builds.
I and other some gosu koreans are reading this and laughing now... cause this article is perfectly tilted to your point of view. 13nexus 13forge, or 13forege 13nexus, 13forege 13cannon nexus is common build order in FS, especially in 7 and 1 'o clock. Protoss set 1probe to prevent from zergling without scout, that's the build order. You are now insisting map hack because of that play, It's ridiculous for us. In our point of view, you very seems to be noob. Have you ever participated in korean progamer leagues? or your fish ladder higher than 1500~1600 or something? Then don't argue with game content, it's out of your ability.
The evidences you suggested is just made by your opinion, which is at very low-level. Your BW competance is proving that. You are not gosugamer right? Iccup rank cannot be the standard. Cause its level too low. You must be seen Sziky overwhelmed by sea... and sea even cannot break SSL round2. You are not even understanding build orders and common game sense.
On June 12 2013 20:02 Letherebelight wrote: if you say he clearly maphacks, you should have clear evidences. Those you wrote are just guesses. Isn't it? We should follow 'Guilty Until Proven Innocent'. Cause there's no clear proof but only belief. Flash maybe blamed as map hacker if he participated this tour lol anonymously. "oh how did he know that? map hacker!" "He always do no barracks double command not whatching zerg's build!"
watch Flash's VODs. He normally uses counter without scout. Fun.
This is not true. Most of Flash's games are 1 barracks fast expansion. In addtion then does Flash always scout with 2 SCVs vZ, the reason he plants his command center, before scouting Z, is because he knows the timing of the zerlings from 9pool and overpool. You'll have enough time to react if you do not scout Z in thie first try.
Secondly, Flash was/is very good at defending, most of the other programers do not use those kind of builds versus him, because they'll be at a disadvanteous position doing a slightly risky build. If you look at Flash's vZ you'll see that that almost everyone opens 12 hatch. You'll only find a odd number of other builds.
On June 12 2013 20:22 Letherebelight wrote: I and other some gosu koreans are reading this and laughing now... cause this article is perfectly tilted to your point of view. 13nexus 13forge, or 13forege 13nexus, 13forege 13cannon nexus is common build order in FS, especially in 7 and 1 'o clock. Protoss set 1probe to prevent from zergling without scout, that's the build order. You are now insisting map hack because of that play, It's ridiculous for us. In our point of view, you very seems to be noob. Have you ever participated in korean progamer leagues? or your fish ladder higher than 1500~1600 or something? Then don't argue with game content, it's out of your ability.
The evidences you suggested is just made by your opinion, which is at very low-level. Your BW competance is proving that. You are not gosugamer right? Iccup rank cannot be the standard. Cause its level too low. You must be seen Sziky overwhelmed by sea... and sea even cannot break SSL round2. You are not even understanding build orders and common game sense.
C'mon i probably speak better korean that these guys speak english.
On June 12 2013 20:02 Letherebelight wrote: if you say he clearly maphacks, you should have clear evidences. Those you wrote are just guesses. Isn't it? We should follow 'Guilty Until Proven Innocent'. Cause there's no clear proof but only belief. Flash maybe blamed as map hacker if he participated this tour lol anonymously. "oh how did he know that? map hacker!" "He always do no barracks double command not whatching zerg's build!"
watch Flash's VODs. He normally uses counter without scout. Fun.
This is not true. Most of Flash's games are 1 barracks fast expansion. In addtion then does Flash always scout with 2 SCVs vZ, the reason he plants his command center, before scouting Z, is because he knows the timing of the zerlings from 9pool and overpool. You'll have enough time to react if you do not scout Z in thie first try.
Secondly, Flash was/is very good at defending, most of the other programers do not use those kind of builds versus him, because they'll be at a disadvanteous position doing a slightly risky build. If you look at Flash's vZ you'll see that that almost everyone opens 12 hatch. You'll only find a odd number of other builds.
That's because 12hatchery is normal zvt lol
Then stop saying he counters blindly. Because he just follows his gameplan.
this thread seems to be interesting for me so I've decided to check it in a proper way. First of all I'd like to say that to educe maphack isn't that easy if only the hacker is a full idiot. In the most of incidents you can't say "it's a 100% clear example of abuse".
So, who is Neagle? He's like B+ player. That's enough to win one of the DTs not facing players like Sziky.
He used to play pVt, pVz, zVp.
Neagle has tried to win DT at least 3 times: #57-59. The results were top24, top2, top1.
I checked the reps from the #57 and 58 tours to see how he is doing the game. There were some semirandom reps with different players. Also I used bwchart to make sure it's a single person playing on his acc.
Important notes: - pVz opening with fast exp: he's scouting with the 1st pylon builder - pVt: he's scouting; he's not countering his opponent's builds every time, more than that he bas behind several times unlike the last tour matches; in the game 20+ mins long he made 7 obses and placed them all over the map
I can say there were no reasons to be suspicious. For example, in the crucial game vs Arcneon he picked Terran (I believe that's because of map — it was LT) and just died to the dark templars.
--
So that's pretty standart. And now we gonna talk about the last tour which has been won by him. I made a big analysis and checked every fucking game.
Warning: all of these facts are not 100% evidence of anything, just the facts. I'm a terran player so I could get something wrong in pVz; as you know, details means a lot at the high level of playing. Also I could just made a mistake somewhere, however I've tried to be mindful. Some of the "things" could be explained by the great experience and game sense of our hero.
pVz vs Whistler (9pool in the brackets): 1. pretty standart, he died cause of bad micro 2. pylon-forge-nexus without scouting (cross resps); slightly suspicious how he chose the way for his shuttle — right over his natural expo, the standart place to put your overlord (no corsairs were built) 3. no scouting expo build with pretty fast +1 attack
pVz vs Moro: 1. no scouting forge-nexus build; "random" probe saw the lings coming; mutas poping-up = immediately +3 cannons on main and +1 on the expo; once hydra den was finished, Neagle made the obs 2. once lings gone to attack protoss exp, hidden zealot moved to zerg's main (no scouting was made); blind 2 stargates building vs 2 bases spire; once spire was denied Neagle didn't build a single cannon to protect both of his mineral lines
pVz vs Zaraki: 1. "lucky" scouting; mass goons build, but insta-cannons vs poping-up mutas 2. standart scouting and build on the 2-players map; overrated his sairs with +1, build a single cannon on the main and was about to die; he didn't scout zerg's tech with probes and corsairs (even didn't try to go to the main) — he was just waiting for mutas on his main with 1 cannon and sairs over the nexus
pVt vs Justice: 1. "lucky" scouting; before probe came, he decided to make a zealot (terran wall wasn't correct — not zealots-tight); he continued with no standart 2nd gate-nexus(standart after zeal I mean), but built a robo and a ribo+2nd gate while terran was pumping tanks+marines+medic from 1 base 2. Justice is not terran anymore, he's zerg; what you think? Neagle scout after the 1st pylon right to zerg's base to see the 4pool coming
pVt vs Cryoc: 1. no scouting; 1 gate-robo (terran doing a standart build 1 fac-cc) 2. no scouting; 1 gate-nexus (vs standart terran BO); 2 base arb with late obs (too late considering his early enough robo); shuttle with 1 dark to terrans main (still no obs!) without turrets and comsat 3. no scouting; 1 gate-nexus (vs standart terran BO)
pVt vs Terror: 1. no scouting, 2 gates vs terran barrack-cc (while scouting probe changed its direction with no reason from correct to the wrong; the same time goon didn't scout — it was waiting to kill scv first, then go) 2. toss made a 2nd gate when terran moved 2nd scv to his own exp to make a bunker after factory; more important thing — goon didn't chase the SCV, also Neale went to terran with 3 goons, and the 4th one was blocking the ramp waiting for hidden vulture
pVt vs Weekly - the final: 1. no scouting, 2 gates vs barrack-cc
--
So the question is: maphacka or not?
Obv Neagle can be genius, 1950+ on fish, one of the Indigo children or just got his best day in career with luck factor ~100%. But for me that's way too many coincidences and evident tendencies.
PS replays of all the DTs are available on defiler.ru so you can try it as I did.
Game 1 vs Moro: blind cross position greedy build, way too early blind counter against moro's lings, perfect defences against mutas (moro makes lots of mutas) Game 2 vs Moro: heavy blind counter against moro's strategy, no scouting, lollish 1st zealot moving timing, strange way to move corsairs. Game 1 vs Zaraki: scout from the first time into perfect defences against mutas (zaraki makes only mutas) Game 2 vs Zaraki: Blind counter with super early +1 of sairs when zaraki is making early 2nd gas on natural, highly suspicious movements with the army. Game1 vs Whistler: scout from first time, chobo play in a non-standard situation Game 2 vs Whistler: blind cross position greedy build, super suspicious scouting and probe pulling, blind 0 defences against mutas (opponent makes no mutas), super suspicious fast 4 zealot drop - moves so freely on the map like he knows there are no scourges Game 3 vs Whistler: blind cross position greedy build into fast win Game 1 vs Justice: scout from first try Game 2 vs Justice: Scout from the first time + super early blind forge vs 4pool Game 1 vs Cryoc: Blind massarmy counter to cryoc's doings, super suspicious shuttle/reaver movement exactly when cryoc moves out, suspicious army movements throughout the whole game, complaining about map being unfair... (lol) Game 2 vs Cryoc: No scout, absolutely blind cross position super greedy build into more timed greedy decisions Game 3 vs Cryoc: No scout into 'finding' his opponent following an scv with 1st goon.
This is a brief of analysis of the 15 players from the DT #59. Notice the patterns? I'm sure there's a lot more, but when he is cross positions he goes for blind counters or blind greedy counters. When his opponent is next to him he scouts from the first time in prevailing amount of cases. Neagle clearly maphacks. The quesiton is why are letherebelight and dredredre all of a sudden so insistent on defending him? What do you know about him? Where do you know him from and how are you guys close?
wow, it seems we made the same job (it took a lot of time for me to watch the reps — i didn't see the new comments). However now we got at least 2 "extensive" views on this
thanks for the time and efforts, Largo, I'm with you that it's just too many coincidences and perfect blind counters all the time, all the matchs in all scenarios...
ha... what I think stuffy is that you guys don't even know what build has advantage to another. 21probe two gate is no the counter of barracks CC. ... lol it's bad to that. he must have made 13zealot to counter CC. lol you noob
I was neagle's clan member, in the west server, and I've heard that he recently started to play BW again after 3years rest. Before then he was famous between korean amateurs that he won active progamers like fantasy and leta in some clan leagues... he once was at pro-level.
On June 12 2013 09:08 zimp wrote: noone can write a program that can detect maphack?
Usually i dont think if you watch a bunch of replays of someone known to be hacking its not hard to figure out. One or two coincidences a game or something isnt much to worry about(remember when people said flash was maphacking? lol) but when it becomes 5 6 7 and they occur literally every game you should be able to pretty firmly put someone down as a maphacker.
cool, we can find a maphacker - if he uses it not cleverly and too much - with hours of work - days after a tournament is held
On June 12 2013 21:41 Letherebelight wrote: I was neagle's clan member, in the west server, and I've heard that he recently started to play BW again after 3years rest. Before then he was famous between korean amateurs that he won active progamers like fantasy and leta in some clan leagues... he once was at pro-level.
http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/Neagle.html but his iccup profile suggests that actually he used to be pretty bad. When was iccup season 14? he played almost 200 games and only got C+ on iccup, while taking games from fantasy in pvt on korean servers? I suppose you're going to say now that this is a shared account that his cat sometimes plays on.
On June 12 2013 09:08 zimp wrote: noone can write a program that can detect maphack?
Usually i dont think if you watch a bunch of replays of someone known to be hacking its not hard to figure out. One or two coincidences a game or something isnt much to worry about(remember when people said flash was maphacking? lol) but when it becomes 5 6 7 and they occur literally every game you should be able to pretty firmly put someone down as a maphacker.
cool, we can find a maphacker - if he uses it not cleverly and too much - with hours of work - days after a tournament is held
Very well said, zimp! Also the prizes are now paid out and it's too late. How many times do we have to have such troubles with players with south korean flags?
On June 12 2013 21:41 Letherebelight wrote: I was neagle's clan member, in the west server, and I've heard that he recently started to play BW again after 3years rest. Before then he was famous between korean amateurs that he won active progamers like fantasy and leta in some clan leagues... he once was at pro-level.
http://www.iccup.com/starcraft/gamingprofile/Neagle.html but his iccup profile suggests that actually he used to be pretty bad. When was iccup season 14? he played almost 200 games and only got C+ on iccup, while taking games from fantasy in pvt on korean servers? I suppose you're going to say now that this is a shared account that his cat sometimes plays on.
rofl, good point there
On June 12 2013 21:52 Rus_Brain wrote: Mr. Neagle to blacklist for all the LAN tournaments hosted by myself and/or sponsored by GLINSO Overseas.
Jesus you just find an explanation for every fuck up you(neagle aka you) make.Just admit that you are like C+/B- hacker who hopes he can win using maphacks.
no way neagle was legit pro level player ever lol. how could i beat him bo3 tvp(!) with zero practice? he just some random korean who seems very likely to have maphacked in defiler #59. maybe this was the only time he did, or maybe he just got super lucky with drunk play, but don't tell me he some super amazing gosu ama who did all the aforementioned suspicious dumb shit that just happened to work in the exact situation he was in with cold calculation. he also no gg when loss and whine about lag when playing in a foreigner tournament, so don't make it worse with korean bw arrogance man
On June 12 2013 22:06 skzlime wrote: no way neagle was legit pro level player ever lol. how could i beat him bo3 tvp(!) with zero practice? he just some random korean who seems very likely to have maphacked in defiler #59. maybe this was the only time he did, or maybe he just got super lucky with drunk play, but don't tell me he some super amazing gosu ama who did all the aforementioned suspicious dumb shit that just happened to work in the exact situation he was in with cold calculation. he also no gg when loss and whine about lag when playing in a foreigner tournament, so don't make it worse with korean bw arrogance man
but it's true.. maybe he didn't know the map or something and he rested 3years
On June 12 2013 22:06 skzlime wrote: no way neagle was legit pro level player ever lol. how could i beat him bo3 tvp(!) with zero practice? he just some random korean who seems very likely to have maphacked in defiler #59. maybe this was the only time he did, or maybe he just got super lucky with drunk play, but don't tell me he some super amazing gosu ama who did all the aforementioned suspicious dumb shit that just happened to work in the exact situation he was in with cold calculation. he also no gg when loss and whine about lag when playing in a foreigner tournament, so don't make it worse with korean bw arrogance man
but it's true.. maybe he didn't know the map or something and he rested 3years
Fighting Spirit, Wind and Cloud, Grand Line SE are like the most standard maps?
Now you are making excuses like he doesn't know the map? lol. Seriously even B- level players which as you said is " cannot be the standard. Cause its level too low " can do pretty descent even on the maps they 1st played due to experience. And yeah so he is C+ it almost 200 games on a server which " cannot be the standard. Cause its level too low ". And congrats on managing to insult the non-korean players in this thread.
On June 12 2013 22:36 kerpal wrote: new theory: lettherebelight actually hates neagle.
evidence: even if neagle appears now and makes good arguments, it will be hard for anyone to overlook lettherebelight making him sound like a douche.
LOL that would be really high level. however if neagle has such cunning opponents in his life i will believe he adapted and has maphack-like starcraft sense.
On June 12 2013 22:36 kerpal wrote: new theory: lettherebelight actually hates neagle.
evidence: even if neagle appears now and makes good arguments, it will be hard for anyone to overlook lettherebelight making him sound like a douche.
LOL that would be really high level. however if neagle has such cunning opponents in his life i will believe he adapted and has maphack-like starcraft sense.
I'll do this to you if you ever get accused of hacking. I'll create an account and start posting as your 'friend' from some korean clan about how low level they all are for even suggesting such a thing.
After receiving help from people from TL staff and iCCup administration, it's confirmed that letherebelight IP address @ TL matches fully with Neagle's one @ iCCup. Thanks to TL and iCCup for giving out their support on the matter in sheding light that letherebelight = Neagle.
On June 12 2013 22:51 LRM)TechnicS wrote: After receiving help from people from TL staff and iCCup administration, it's confirmed that letherebelight IP address @ TL matches fully with Neagle's one @ iCCup. Thanks to TL and iCCup for giving out their support on the matter in sheding light that letherebelight = Neagle.
The problem is what do we do now? There was Cindy, then kissingUr, now Neagle who is next? All these are players with south korean flags (maybe not even south koreans) Maybe next guy will be smart and will maphack so it will take 100+ games to catch him. What do we do to prevent players from hacking in such a way in the defiler tournaments?
On June 12 2013 23:18 LRM)TechnicS wrote: The problem is what do we do now? There was Cindy, then kissingUr, now Neagle who is next? All these are players with south korean flags (maybe not even south koreans) Maybe next guy will be smart and will maphack so it will take 100+ games to catch him. What do we do to prevent players from hacking in such a way in the defiler tournaments?
well there is nothing we can really do but get up an better AH tool. If you program such a thing and bring it to ICCup or defiler admins, you wont get turned down i guess.
On June 12 2013 23:22 Letherebelight wrote: lol it's me who told neagle about defiler tour and who helped to stream and be register on TL -_- he at first participated with my id.
So you could totally get neagle to post himself from a different IP right? One that would match the IP used to play the defiler games?
oh, except he also plays at your house too? He's a former pro who doesn't have internet in his house?
On June 12 2013 22:51 LRM)TechnicS wrote: After receiving help from people from TL staff and iCCup administration, it's confirmed that letherebelight IP address @ TL matches fully with Neagle's one @ iCCup. Thanks to TL and iCCup for giving out their support on the matter in sheding light that letherebelight = Neagle.
how can those be same? strange I connected this Id to his twitch, but that's all. and he played as letherebelight in iccup once, cause he used defiler.ru of mine.
Back in good old days, hackers implied super intelligent nerds who could manipulate computer programming to their tunes. Now, it commonly refers to, uh, strange gamers.
In addtion then does Flash always scout with 2 SCVs vZ
This is not correct. I watched a Flash replay where he havent scouted zerg main at all for 10 minutes or so. And of course he blindly countered muta. The game was played on Destination.
The problem with "proofs" like that is that they look suspicious, but they are not proofs in fact. So all you can say is "there is a high probability this person is a maphacker". But what if he not and you'll ban him from events? This won't be nice.
True, but then you'd expect he would have guts to defend himself without resorting to a smurf. Still I agree development of better AH tools is necessary to prevent other potential confusion.
Neagle is ugly hacker who plays defiler only for moneys. He can click fast, but he has no brains, but map hack allows him win. Sad that iccup launcher protection was not upgraded last 5 years...
On June 12 2013 23:41 Letherebelight wrote: how can those be same? strange I connected this Id to his twitch, but that's all. and he played as letherebelight in iccup once, cause he used defiler.ru of mine.
"IP address" not id rofl
it means you are using the same computer, in simple terms
On June 13 2013 02:13 sas.Sziky wrote: Letherebelight u funny and silly, of course, i idk u neagle or not I can think of one know neagle gosu?pro? lol good joke.
whacked me ? lol who does not? all can win me if here b- ... I'm not a machine to always be a i good.
and go banned mysterious suspicious fraud(no aka who is this noname guy?) and lagggerssss, If you want to operate with defiler has long.
On June 13 2013 00:20 7x-Justice wrote: LRM)TechnicS, you made amazing work. Very good!
Neagle is ugly hacker who plays defiler only for moneys. He can click fast, but he has no brains, but map hack allows him win. Sad that iccup launcher protection was not upgraded last 5 years...
yeah.. we need that..
some big ICCup upgrade should be made imo + some new features added, with benefit to all of us !
On June 12 2013 20:02 Letherebelight wrote: if you say he clearly maphacks, you should have clear evidences. Those you wrote are just guesses. Isn't it? We should follow 'Guilty Until Proven Innocent'. Cause there's no clear proof but only belief. Flash maybe blamed as map hacker if he participated this tour lol anonymously. "oh how did he know that? map hacker!" "He always do no barracks double command not whatching zerg's build!"
watch Flash's VODs. He normally uses counter without scout. Fun. I'm not Neagle btw.
OMG GREAT ARGUMENT FLASH JUST KNOWS!!
On June 12 2013 20:22 Letherebelight wrote: I, who is not Neagle, and other some gosu koreans are reading this and laughing now... we are seriously laughing because I have all these korean friends and we just get together and laugh at foreigners, especially cause this article is perfectly tilted to your point of view. 13nexus 13forge, or 13forege 13nexus, 13forege 13cannon nexus is common build order in FS, especially in 7 and 1 'o clock. Protoss set 1probe to prevent from zergling without scout, that's the build order. You are now insisting map hack because of that play, It's ridiculous for us. In our point of view, you very seems to be noob. Have you ever participated in korean progamer leagues? or your fish ladder higher than 1500~1600 or something? Then don't argue with game content, it's out of your ability.
The evidences you suggested is just made by your opinion, which is at very low-level. Your BW competance is proving that. You are not gosugamer right? Iccup rank cannot be the standard. Cause its level too low. You must be seen Sziky overwhelmed by sea... and sea even cannot break SSL round2. You are not even understanding build orders and common game sense. i'm not neagle,
We're not gosugamers.net, you are correct, therefore, Neagle cannot be a hacker. Gosugamers.net is for true gosus, it says it in the name.
On June 12 2013 20:02 Letherebelight wrote: if you say he clearly maphacks, you should have clear evidences. Those you wrote are just guesses. Isn't it? We should follow 'Guilty Until Proven Innocent'. Cause there's no clear proof but only belief. Flash maybe blamed as map hacker if he participated this tour lol anonymously. "oh how did he know that? map hacker!" "He always do no barracks double command not whatching zerg's build!"
watch Flash's VODs. He normally uses counter without scout. Fun.
This is not true. Most of Flash's games are 1 barracks fast expansion. In addtion then does Flash always scout with 2 SCVs vZ, the reason he plants his command center, before scouting Z, is because he knows the timing of the zerlings from 9pool and overpool. You'll have enough time to react if you do not scout Z in thie first try.
Secondly, Flash was/is very good at defending, most of the other programers do not use those kind of builds versus him, because they'll be at a disadvanteous position doing a slightly risky build. If you look at Flash's vZ you'll see that that almost everyone opens 12 hatch. You'll only find a odd number of other builds.
That's because 12hatchery is normal zvt lol im not neagle
I thought the standard build for ZvT was quick creep colony + evolution chamber into 1 base ultralisk rush, no wonder I never made it past D-
On June 12 2013 21:30 Letherebelight wrote: ha... what I think stuffy is that you guys don't even know what build has advantage to another. 21probe two gate is no the counter of barracks CC. ... lol it's bad to that. he must have made 13zealot to counter CC. lol you noob im not neagle
I've always wonder the true counter to rax/CC, and now I know that it's 13zealot. I will add the 13 Zealot build to Liquipedia asaply.
On June 12 2013 22:01 Letherebelight wrote: His iccup stats must not be seriously made... it isn't pro league. he likes 5drone sometimes... im not neagle
If I were a former pro, I would probably play 500 games where I just mess around and get some awful rank too. I can only dream...
On June 12 2013 23:22 Letherebelight wrote: lol it's me who told neagle about defiler tour and who helped to stream and be register on TL -_- he at first participated with my id.
So you could totally get neagle to post himself from a different IP right? One that would match the IP used to play the defiler games?
oh, except he also plays at your house too? He's a former pro who doesn't have internet in his house?
give up.
He's like Blackman. Practices against AIs he programs.
On June 13 2013 00:02 LRM)TechnicS wrote: I guess he doesn't understand what same IP addresses imply
NOPE, IT'S NOT NEAGLE, IT'S LEGIT, MCA APPROVED
Conclusion: Neagle cannot possibly be a hacker because he is a Korean, and we foreigners don't have the game sense to possibly understand how someone could have this incredible game-sense, because Koreans are psychics. I just wonder why Flash stopped using his hack-sense at the end of his career in BroodWar, because that was disappointing.
On June 13 2013 09:45 Hellbat wrote: I thought iccup had an anti-hack launcher
Yes, but it's, according to some people, outdated and insufficient compared to wLauncher/wDetector and MiniLauncher. Meaning that some newer hacks could work.
On June 13 2013 09:45 Hellbat wrote: I thought iccup had an anti-hack launcher
Yes, but it's, according to some people, outdated and insufficient compared to wLauncher/wDetector and MiniLauncher. Meaning that some newer hacks could work.
Actually it is way better than wlauncher or mini, which are completely not needed, simply because they can't detect anything.
On June 13 2013 09:45 Hellbat wrote: I thought iccup had an anti-hack launcher
Yes, but it's, according to some people, outdated and insufficient compared to wLauncher/wDetector and MiniLauncher. Meaning that some newer hacks could work.
Actually it is way better than wlauncher or mini, which are completely not needed, simply because they can't detect anything.
wDetector works better than iCCup AH as far as I know, or at least it's more up to date.
wDetector detects hacks from other players even if they don't have it unlike iCCup's antihack which detects hacks on your computer only(correct me if i'm wrong). That's the key difference between the two
not really .the other day a korean zerg make my half of minerals dont work and gaz dont work.and attack me with 1 million of stacked drones -.- And i was the host so it wasnt edited map or something
On June 13 2013 16:52 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: not really .the other day a korean zerg make my half of minerals dont work and gaz dont work.and attack me with 1 million of stacked drones -.- And i was the host so it wasnt edited map or something
On June 13 2013 16:52 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: not really .the other day a korean zerg make my half of minerals dont work and gaz dont work.and attack me with 1 million of stacked drones -.- And i was the host so it wasnt edited map or something
You are forean... not korean gosu like neagle and me... so we laugh at you because you not know how to counter 1 million stack drone tactic... foreaner so nooby and throw around accuse like pizza doughs... -_-;; you not have gamesense to know because have you competed in proleague like me? ? I think not so be quiet plz??
IT'S LEGIT STRAT, MCA APPROVED, FLASH DID IT, SIMPSONS DID IT, X17 APPROVED, NOT HAX, WAS NEVER IN SAF, CASE CLOSED!
wDetector detecting hacks on opponents machine? More like wishful thinking. As I understand, it is simply not possible. Detecting multicommand and stuff may be possible, but map vision state? I don't think so.
On June 13 2013 16:29 Mirnaia wrote: I would also like to draw attention to how cool the triple pun in the thread's title is.
please elucidate
I've gotten as far as an eagle being a thing that flies, and could thus be flying under the radar. And he was evidently getting away with this for some time, so that could also be under the radar. That's maybe a double pun?
On June 13 2013 22:04 13Julia wrote: wDetector detecting hacks on opponents machine? More like wishful thinking. As I understand, it is simply not possible. Detecting multicommand and stuff may be possible, but map vision state? I don't think so.
Wishful thinking? There are hacks that can be detected from other players, never said that all hacks can be detected that way.
On June 13 2013 22:04 13Julia wrote: wDetector detecting hacks on opponents machine? More like wishful thinking. As I understand, it is simply not possible. Detecting multicommand and stuff may be possible, but map vision state? I don't think so.
Wishful thinking? There are hacks that can be detected from other players, never said that all hacks can be detected that way.
Given that map hacking is the most prevelant form of hacking and that it's by its nature impossible to detect remotely, that's a pretty important distinction.
On June 13 2013 16:29 Mirnaia wrote: I would also like to draw attention to how cool the triple pun in the thread's title is.
please elucidate
1) Neagle being under the radar (i.e. he's the one being investigated) 2) Neagle flying under the radar (i.e. it wasn't noticed immediately) 3) What Neagle saw under his own radar (i.e. minimap)
1) and 2) are not a pun but simply natural vagueness of the expression and the language, and 3) cannot work because in that case he's not the one under the radar, his opponent's army is.
On June 14 2013 19:31 Kyrillion wrote: 1) and 2) are not a pun but simply natural vagueness of the expression and the language, and 3) cannot work because in that case he's not the one under the radar, his opponent's army is.
Oh, the semantic debate is on! I can live with them not being puns 3) can work I believe, as "Under the radar: Neagle" is a title. They adhere less strictly to (the otherwise rather strict English) word order and allow for more implicit interpretation.
On June 15 2013 21:22 JohnBall wrote: All those maphackers suck. It's really disappointing you can't have a maphack free environment anymore like you could in the golden days of BW.
yeah, I wasn't around but I'm pretty sure there were no hackers before.
On June 15 2013 21:22 JohnBall wrote: All those maphackers suck. It's really disappointing you can't have a maphack free environment anymore like you could in the golden days of BW.
yeah, I wasn't around but I'm pretty sure there were no hackers before.
On June 15 2013 21:22 JohnBall wrote: All those maphackers suck. It's really disappointing you can't have a maphack free environment anymore like you could in the golden days of BW.
yeah, I wasn't around but I'm pretty sure there were no hackers before.
pretty sure
wrong ... if just to check there many many and famous ^^
On June 15 2013 21:22 JohnBall wrote: All those maphackers suck. It's really disappointing you can't have a maphack free environment anymore like you could in the golden days of BW.
yeah, I wasn't around but I'm pretty sure there were no hackers before.
pretty sure
wrong ... if just to check there many many and famous ^^