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On June 14 2017 03:11 iFU.pauline wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 02:34 EndingLife wrote:On June 14 2017 02:11 iFU.pauline wrote: The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way. You can just as easily state that the foreigners complaining about Scan playing are only in it for the money as well. Is playing him and losing to him the issue? Or is playing him and not getting money the issue? Why wouldn't he be there for the money if he put the most time into this game and has the best chance to win? Because the gap in skill is too big with Scan, everyone knows it and it is killing the fun, I don't know what more to say, we share different vision. Why is the gap so big? Because Scan is Korean or because he put more time, energy and effort into this game?
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On June 14 2017 03:18 EndingLife wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 03:11 iFU.pauline wrote:On June 14 2017 02:34 EndingLife wrote:On June 14 2017 02:11 iFU.pauline wrote: The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way. You can just as easily state that the foreigners complaining about Scan playing are only in it for the money as well. Is playing him and losing to him the issue? Or is playing him and not getting money the issue? Why wouldn't he be there for the money if he put the most time into this game and has the best chance to win? Because the gap in skill is too big with Scan, everyone knows it and it is killing the fun, I don't know what more to say, we share different vision. Why is the gap so big? Because Scan is Korean or because he put more time, energy and effort into this game? Regardless of why, its not out of the question to say that we should have tournaments where red belts aren't competing v. the yellow belts.
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I'll give you a hint, how do you want to learn about the things, if you dont know even know such things might exist? I'll give you a real example if it's too hard to understand. Some player talked to me and asked for advices, i answered to him and now his knowledge is greater, himself he could never learn that without asking, or maybe it would took him X period of time (weeks,months,years)
Also maybe some people would like to stop comparing BW to every other sport, discipline, shoes, bikes, shit?
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Scan worked the hardest - Scan get's the cash. If you wanna punish players for working too hard go hold your tournament in Pyongyang you goddamn commies.
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Moderation bans people for using "bad words" Why teamliquid admins dont ban retarded forum trolls, who post their bullshit in every topic, like this idiot above?
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On June 14 2017 03:18 EndingLife wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 03:11 iFU.pauline wrote:On June 14 2017 02:34 EndingLife wrote:On June 14 2017 02:11 iFU.pauline wrote: The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way. You can just as easily state that the foreigners complaining about Scan playing are only in it for the money as well. Is playing him and losing to him the issue? Or is playing him and not getting money the issue? Why wouldn't he be there for the money if he put the most time into this game and has the best chance to win? Because the gap in skill is too big with Scan, everyone knows it and it is killing the fun, I don't know what more to say, we share different vision. Why is the gap so big? Because Scan is Korean or because he put more time, energy and effort into this game?
I don't care why, I am not the one who talk about Korean, I think the thread title is wrong, it should be called "Abusers" instead of "Korean". I pointed out the fact that because Scan knows he will always win those tourneys he could give a bit of space so that it would be more fun for the community as a whole (players and viewers). This is what I call having manners, which would also avoid thread like this or tournament named "Defiler Tour # 79Non-Korean", our next tourney btw.
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Dominican Republic589 Posts
On June 13 2017 21:51 ICanFlyLow wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2017 20:53 greenterran wrote: Ban koreans from tournaments
User was warned for this post lol, warned for a opinion thats relevent to the topic? And i don't think we should ban any koreans. From a perspective of a player that wants to improve I think its vital to have them challenge us.
really strange.
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On June 14 2017 03:38 iFU.pauline wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 03:18 EndingLife wrote:On June 14 2017 03:11 iFU.pauline wrote:On June 14 2017 02:34 EndingLife wrote:On June 14 2017 02:11 iFU.pauline wrote: The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way. You can just as easily state that the foreigners complaining about Scan playing are only in it for the money as well. Is playing him and losing to him the issue? Or is playing him and not getting money the issue? Why wouldn't he be there for the money if he put the most time into this game and has the best chance to win? Because the gap in skill is too big with Scan, everyone knows it and it is killing the fun, I don't know what more to say, we share different vision. Why is the gap so big? Because Scan is Korean or because he put more time, energy and effort into this game? I don't care why, I am not the one who talk about Korean, I think the thread title is wrong, it should be called "Abusers" instead of "Korean". I pointed out the fact that because Scan knows he will always win those tourneys he could give a bit of space so that it would be more fun for the community as a whole (players and viewers). This is what I call having manners, which would also avoid thread like this or tournament named "Defiler Tour # 79Non-Korean", our next tourney btw. Flash should avoid ASL so the Korean community as a whole would enjoy it more, rather than Flash just winning everything.
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I don't see a problem with people who are better because they have spent more time and effort in getting better, entering and winning open tournaments. The analogy with the weekly d+ tournament is bogus, as the open tournaments Scan enters don't have a skill cap.
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You see Kenzy, your topic is pointless, because u have the army of people here who gives example likes why a korean exprogamer is playing against other exprogamers, while they both raised in the same community, they both have similiar access to the source of knowledge, they can share their knowledge and opinions with the another thousand members of the same community or people thinking that the time and effort is just this ;-)
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On June 14 2017 03:33 trutaCz wrote: Moderation bans people for using "bad words" Why teamliquid admins dont ban retarded forum trolls, who post their bullshit in every topic, like this idiot above? Calm down, it was (I thought obviously) a joke. Actually I can understand both sides of the argument so I think it's best to have some tournaments open to all and some only for non-koreans. Which actually is the case atm with HAY and Filthy being open and defiler being closed.
Most importantly just respect admin/organizer decision and don't complain and bitch all the time. Sadly makes it impossible to cheer for some of the best foreigners, because of the embarrassing sportsmanship.
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If you can't distinguish the critic from complaining it's your problem. I care about the rise of foreign community so i'm gonna criticize as long as i will see it's not going in the good way and i've been for enough time actively in this scene to know what factors decide about the growth of it.
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To tell you the truth, top level Korean players don't really give advices. They learn from mistakes and compare their playstyle/b.o to someone else's. Everyone in the back day in ZvT, they start the gas @2:55, but then now they moved on to @2:40 because of Terran's optimization every next day. Pretty much sharing styles/builds. not advice.
PS: There's also like gas @3:05++ after making 8 lings for rush.
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There are obviously valid arguments for both allowing and banning Koreans from tournaments. The solution is probably to have some tournaments that allow Koreans and some tournaments that forbid Koreans.
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On June 14 2017 03:42 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 14 2017 03:38 iFU.pauline wrote:On June 14 2017 03:18 EndingLife wrote:On June 14 2017 03:11 iFU.pauline wrote:On June 14 2017 02:34 EndingLife wrote:On June 14 2017 02:11 iFU.pauline wrote: The problem really is the attitude. Obviously Scan has no challenge playing those tournaments, he is here for the prize money. So if it was 2 or 3 times he shows up and grab the cash that is ok. But he is here way too often to safely call that plain abuse. And to me, this is a problem, I haven't been educated this way. You can just as easily state that the foreigners complaining about Scan playing are only in it for the money as well. Is playing him and losing to him the issue? Or is playing him and not getting money the issue? Why wouldn't he be there for the money if he put the most time into this game and has the best chance to win? Because the gap in skill is too big with Scan, everyone knows it and it is killing the fun, I don't know what more to say, we share different vision. Why is the gap so big? Because Scan is Korean or because he put more time, energy and effort into this game? I don't care why, I am not the one who talk about Korean, I think the thread title is wrong, it should be called "Abusers" instead of "Korean". I pointed out the fact that because Scan knows he will always win those tourneys he could give a bit of space so that it would be more fun for the community as a whole (players and viewers). This is what I call having manners, which would also avoid thread like this or tournament named "Defiler Tour # 79Non-Korean", our next tourney btw. Flash should avoid ASL so the Korean community as a whole would enjoy it more, rather than Flash just winning everything.
This is silly. I won't argue with that.
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Well styles,builds,advices - just generally knowledge. You told me some of these, and i probably couldnt learn about them from anyone else. For example most of koreans have solid mechanics, while most of foreigners have poor mechanics. It doesnt come from the fact that korean players were born with talent to have the solid mechanics in broodwar or the otherwise. It comes from the access to the source, what elements are needed and how to execute them to have solid mechanics.
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Having read the discussion thus far my 2 cents to the following questions and the topic in general:
1. Should Koreans be banned from participating in tournaments? Pros: + Higher participation and viewership in tournaments (based on our past experience) + Less complaints from certain players and viewers + More recognizable winners
Cons: - Racism (goes both ways) - Competition is a farce - Further segregates BW communities - Skill level drop
2. Does Scan count as a 'Korean'? + He is a Korean national + He speaks Korean + He has lived in Korea - He is not residing in Korea - He speaks English - He participates in the 'foreign' community and provides guides and advice in English (unlike every other Korean) --------------------------------
Regionalism and restrictions are a part of sports used to enhance grassroots growth and rising levels of competition (example Football, you have: Local amateur football intra-national club football (premier league, bundesliga etc.) international club football (championsleague etc.) international football by region (America Cup, Euro Cup etc.) world championships (ConFed Cup, World Cup) As such having a regional or national restriction in place is not out of the ordinary.
BW is of course not in any shape as organized as football, nor do geographical regions make much sense but bear with me: Local (low ranks) leagues (CPL, Rookie TL, D-C Rank tour) intra-national events (Polish Tournaments, German King of the Hill.. Afreeca Starleague) international clans (Gambit Cup or ICCup Clan League) international competition by region (Teamliquid Legacy Starleague as excluding Korea is regionalism) world championships (Filthy Cup, Defiler Tours, World Cyber Games)
Now interestingly enough just like in football there are some questions to which tournament level has the highest skill. In football many people argue that the European Club Football Championsleague has the highest skill (over that of the World Cup for example), much as most of us would argue that the Afreeca Starleague has the highest skill (over say Filthy Cup). So skill does not have to rise with breadth of competition.
1. Thus there is no issue with banning Koreans from tournaments.
2. Personally I enjoy the format the Chinese have used for some of their tournaments (It would also be interesting to see how 'foreigners' reacted if China solved its lag firewall and Chinese players started dominating the 'foreign' scene).
What the Chinese have done is to seed very high level Koreans to late tournament stages to have their own best play against (sometimes with handicaps). Similarly you could resolve the issue of Scan by having the winner of a tournament do a special finals set vs Scan (prizepool for first place can be split 50/50 between the two, or non-Scan takes all if wins). This way you will still know how good the best 'foreigner' is in relation to a very good Korean. This stops punishing Scan specifically (as he is a contributor to our scene) while keeping the competition and participation high.
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Money abusers? lol :facepalm:
I enjoy seeing Scan kick all the foreign asses. I go into foreigner streams and enjoy figuring out why they don't improve and get closer to level like Scan's. It's not the language barrier. It's not the ability to practice in a "progamer house", or find good practice partners. It's like 95% bad attitude. Foreigners are lazy and make excuses that prevent them improving.
The solution to improving their skill can stare them in the face on stream, and a foreigner will flatly deny it in favor of stroking their ego. I like seeing Scan win because he deserves to win. He works harder (at least on stream) and is the better player.
Just my own personal observations and very biased opinions.
Edit: On this note, I find games where Scan destroys foreigners to by some of the *the most* educational games. It is rare to find a highly skilled player utterly smack down a fairly good player in royal fashion. These kinds of games can give hints as to just how certain builds are superior to others, or just how certain mechanics are important for overpowering the opponent.
Wanting to, or discussing the banning of Scan is just another one of these hints. It's a hint to the bad attitude I was talking about earlier. Instead of taking his interactions with the foreign community as yet another learning opportunity, foreigners opt to consider every other path of less resistance. It's shameful.
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On June 14 2017 03:52 LaStScan wrote: To tell you the truth, top level Korean players don't really give advices. They learn from mistakes and compare their playstyle/b.o to someone else's. Everyone in the back day in ZvT, they start the gas @2:55, but then now they moved on to @2:40 because of Terran's optimization every next day. Pretty much sharing styles/builds. not advice.
PS: There's also like gas @3:05++ after making 8 lings for rush. Now that level of knowledge detail is, what we mortals would never be able acquire by any means. Personally I`m nor with nor against excluding Koreans, but I`d welcome the decision excluding people with serious lag issues.
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Scan 2-0 eonzerg Scan 2-0 Dewalt Scan 2-0 Arcneon Scan 2-0 Marwin Scan 2-0 trutacz Scan 2-0 dinot Scan 2-0 kenzy Scan 2-0 Ty2 Scan 2-0 trutacz Scan 2-1 dinot Scan 2-0 Terror Scan 2-1 eonzerg Scan 2-0 Bonyth Scan 2-0 trutacz Scan 2-0 eonzerg Scan 2-0 Sziky Scan 2-0 Dandy Scan 2-0 eonzerg Scan 2-0 lancerx Scan 2-0 kenzy Scan 2-0 eonzerg Scan 2-0 bonyth Scan 2-0 Dewalt Scan 2-1 Bonyth Scan 2-0 spx Scan 2-0 trutacz Scan 2-1 Bonyth Scan 2-1 dandy Scan 2-0 trutacz scan 2-1 dewalt Scan 2-0 spx Scan 2-1 dandy Scan 1-2 bonyth Scan 2-0 eonzerg Scan 2-0 trutacz Scan 1-2 trutacz
34-2
This is difference between top foreigner players and top mid tier class or low top class korean players. You can put the name of Bishop, Baskin1, 9mutal, yangachi and plenty of others
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