I think noregret is the chill rapid needs in the cast, they mesh well together. Can we get more please?
NoRegreT + RAPiDCasting
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warPcannons
5 Posts
I think noregret is the chill rapid needs in the cast, they mesh well together. Can we get more please? | ||
blabber
United States4448 Posts
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LocoBolon
Argentina243 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4500 Posts
Other than that I prefer Rapid because he's a great translator. I think FlaShFTW was a good caster for ASL, but unfortunately he chose to resign for ASL5 due to conflicting timezones. (Unfortunately he never got as much attention because he didn't cast on the main stream.) | ||
Dantak
Czech Republic648 Posts
On April 15 2018 17:37 Peeano wrote: All the English ASL casters are subpar imo, I'd rather watch the Korean cast. Other than that I prefer Rapid because he's a great translator. I think FlaShFTW was a good caster for ASL, but unfortunately he chose to resign for ASL5 due to conflicting timezones. (Unfortunately he never got as much attention because he didn't cast on the main stream.) As a part of silent minority/majority, I'd like to say that I always enjoy Tasteless/Artosis cast the most. Personally, they deliver the most professional all-around experience and are by far the most enjoyable. I believe that their mix of personality/technicality is best suited for professional casts that are catered to both hardcore-players and casual fans of BW (which I think ASL is and should be, if you guys want a chance to revive the scene a bit). I'm also glad that Rapid improved a ton over these past few months. | ||
FlaShFTW
United States9665 Posts
On April 15 2018 17:37 Peeano wrote: All the English ASL casters are subpar imo, I'd rather watch the Korean cast. Other than that I prefer Rapid because he's a great translator. I think FlaShFTW was a good caster for ASL, but unfortunately he chose to resign for ASL5 due to conflicting timezones. (Unfortunately he never got as much attention because he didn't cast on the main stream.) <3 Always my biggest fan Peeano. I miss casting. I might put together random commentaries for the small tournaments that I'm in like CPL or STPL c: | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9365 Posts
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SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On April 15 2018 23:19 2Pacalypse- wrote: RAPiD is pretty great. If he was paired with some analytical caster who knows intricacies of the BW strategies, that would be a killer combo. I have nothing against him, but unfortunately, NoRegreT is not that person. This is pretty much how I feel. I liked the cast, but I did prefer rapid and artosis. noregret was entertaining though. I would like to see him again. | ||
Columbo1
8 Posts
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IntoTheEmo
Singapore1168 Posts
Like people have said, he just needs to be paired with someone knowledgable. Guy can be pretty entertaining. Kinda like how James was with ddk on CSGO. Edit: Oh and Rapid does have something over Tasteless/Artosis. If you pay attention, you can tell that he sounds like he follows TL a lot; he speaks from a perspective of a fan. In other words, he mentions a lot of recent stuff about the progamers involved as opposed to the latter two who tend to reference what they knew of them in the past (TBLS forever good, Flash is king etc). It's sort of refreshing to hear on the main stream. | ||
Miragee
8304 Posts
On April 15 2018 18:50 Dantak wrote: As a part of silent minority/majority, I'd like to say that I always enjoy Tasteless/Artosis cast the most. Personally, they deliver the most professional all-around experience and are by far the most enjoyable. I believe that their mix of personality/technicality is best suited for professional casts that are catered to both hardcore-players and casual fans of BW (which I think ASL is and should be, if you guys want a chance to revive the scene a bit). I'm also glad that Rapid improved a ton over these past few months. I have always enjoyed Artosis and Tasteless for their personal banter etc. Right now however, I strongly disagree that they cater to both crowds. Their in-depth knowledge of the game is more than lacking. On April 15 2018 23:19 2Pacalypse- wrote: RAPiD is pretty great. If he was paired with some analytical caster who knows intricacies of the BW strategies, that would be a killer combo. I have nothing against him, but unfortunately, NoRegreT is not that person. Actually, NoRegret could be that person. It showed through the cast that he has a good knowledge of SC2. If he could achieve the same level in BW he would be the best by far. | ||
TelecoM
United States10583 Posts
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Waxangel
United States32537 Posts
Or is it because you feel like it's something a broadcast 'should' have, because it just FEELS right to you for whatever reason (maybe it gives the broadcast a feeling of legitimacy, professionalism, etc.) | ||
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On April 16 2018 10:51 Waxangel wrote: I was wondering, do you guys want BW knowledge from casters because it's actually USEFUL to you and they are teaching you things you didn't know? Or is it because you feel like it's something a broadcast 'should' have, because it just FEELS right to you for whatever reason (maybe it gives the broadcast a feeling of legitimacy, professionalism, etc.) even if they aren't teaching us anything new, it is going to be extremely helpful for newcomers to the game. which we always need more of. personally, that's why I want it, so that new viewers can join in on why a certain play was amazing and why this player is doing this and that. that makes the entire match more interesting; it ain't just units blowing up on a screen. edit: i don't watch the korean cast, but how is their style of casting? informative? I know that they get really hyped (which I adore), but I don't know much else. | ||
inFeZa
Australia555 Posts
On April 16 2018 10:51 Waxangel wrote: I was wondering, do you guys want BW knowledge from casters because it's actually USEFUL to you and they are teaching you things you didn't know? Or is it because you feel like it's something a broadcast 'should' have, because it just FEELS right to you for whatever reason (maybe it gives the broadcast a feeling of legitimacy, professionalism, etc.) Both, that's why we usually have two right? One to lay me down and caress me with the sweet words and chocolatey voice then one to slip me that juicy info while i'm vulnerable. | ||
Miragee
8304 Posts
On April 16 2018 10:51 Waxangel wrote: I was wondering, do you guys want BW knowledge from casters because it's actually USEFUL to you and they are teaching you things you didn't know? Or is it because you feel like it's something a broadcast 'should' have, because it just FEELS right to you for whatever reason (maybe it gives the broadcast a feeling of legitimacy, professionalism, etc.) Different reasons. First of, it annoys the hell out of me if I see something on screen and the caster tells me something different or tries to figure out what's happening even though it's obvious. Secondly, I'm not an omniscient BW monster so it's nice to get some insights on things I don't know from time to time. This is why I like pros casting because at times they tell you about certain timings, scout patterns or something like that that's very specific and only appears in very high level play. Thirdly it's nice for new players to have casters that actually give them correct information about what's happening instead of confusing them with information that is not true (especially Tastosis is very good at implying they actually know what they are talking about while being utterly wrong). That said, I think a cast should have both: entertainment value and high-level information. | ||
Peeano
Netherlands4500 Posts
Without a playerbase there is no future. And learning about players makes you understand and respect them more. Given the competitive nature of BW, that in turn helps create a friendlier gaming experience. Superdanielman and Tasteless was my favorite combination back in the day. SDM gave so much interesting insights about the game and its scene. Tasteless rambled less back then and his jokes were actually funny. Every time I try Tasteless nowadays he just annoys me. (I'm just stating my opinion, I'm not hating on any casters.) | ||
angrypofke
Lithuania174 Posts
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seom
South Africa491 Posts
On April 16 2018 10:51 Waxangel wrote: I was wondering, do you guys want BW knowledge from casters because it's actually USEFUL to you and they are teaching you things you didn't know? Or is it because you feel like it's something a broadcast 'should' have, because it just FEELS right to you for whatever reason (maybe it gives the broadcast a feeling of legitimacy, professionalism, etc.) I mean they are professional casters, they should have more than just a working knowledge of the basics of the game if you ask me. Its also really cringy when it is obvious that the casters have no idea what is going on in the game or make consistent wrong calls etc | ||
Peeano
Netherlands4500 Posts
On April 16 2018 19:52 seom wrote: I mean they are professional casters, they should have more than just a working knowledge of the basics of the game if you ask me. Its also really cringy when it is obvious that the casters have no idea what is going on in the game or make consistent wrong calls etc Agreed. If your lack of game knowledge consistently makes you give false readings of the game then you aren't the right caster. At most you're merely the best caster at hand. Casting BW isn't something to overlook. It shows that it's not something you can just do. It takes a lot of investment. | ||
Chef
10810 Posts
On April 16 2018 10:51 Waxangel wrote: I was wondering, do you guys want BW knowledge from casters because it's actually USEFUL to you and they are teaching you things you didn't know? Or is it because you feel like it's something a broadcast 'should' have, because it just FEELS right to you for whatever reason (maybe it gives the broadcast a feeling of legitimacy, professionalism, etc.) So cynical! For me the main reason is neither of those things. To help me pay attention to the game, either I need to not understand the language, so that I have my full attention taking note of what the builds were, what I think will happen, what I think the game position is like, or I need a cast in a language I do understand to be pulling some of that weight for me. I can't really multitask listening and thinking at the same time. Ironically, I think it might actually be less important for a caster to be knowledgeable when you yourself don't know much of what is going on, than if you do have good game knowledge and find yourself distracted and missing things. But even if you don't have much knowledge, a good analysis will please you, hearing a few bench marks about what is important to pay attention to, what is actually a big loss and what isn't. I think one thing you have to keep in mind with BW fans is that we're kind of a unique audience, a lot of us used to watched BW without understanding the commentary for many, many years, and only understood the game on any level because we played it obsessively. For me, RAPiD every cast sounds like someone bullshitting their way through an English essay in high school, and I find that distracting. What confuses me is that I know people used to have similar complaints about Klazart back in the day, and I loved his commentaries in those days. In fact, I pretty much liked anyone who did an RWA, and I could easily listen to Manifesto7 even though he is the same person who banned someone for doing the computer zealot rush against him. What is the difference? I haven't listened to the old commentaries in so long I can't really say for sure, but I think somehow I didn't find them as distracting, or as empty. I guess it's not really important to me that a caster have so called useful knowledge. Nor do I care if they go on little tangents and talk about whatever, especially during quiet parts of the game. What I do find distracting is if a caster doesn't really understand the result of a battle, and kind of blows it up as a big deal every time, and his play by play is kind of weird and hackneyed. I think even the mediocre players I used to listen to watched and played enough BW to understand just like I did what was and wasn't that big of a deal. When what I think is a big deal and what the caster thinks is a big deal don't line up, it causes dissonance and distraction. And I think acquiring that knowledge is less about being a great player like Artosis was, and more about just sheer volume of games watched, as though all our minds were little machine learning programs fine tuning our tolerances for what is and isn't ordinary. Again, I think matching that tolerance is more difficult with old fans than it is with newer fans. But I've also seen enough familiar names saying they don't mind RAPiD to know this is only a subset of old fans I happen to be a part of. In some part I think the desire to make the conversation about game knowledge is maybe making too specific a complaint about the overall effect of a caster, that perhaps RAPiD's style just annoys a subset of us because it relies on good game knowledge which perhaps he has for SC2 and which has led him to a successful career. He gets complaints every video he's in, but that's probably a very small minority, though it's hard to feel that way when I am one of the people who will just look for the Korean VOD after watching him commentate one game. | ||
NewbOnTheFloor
Poland160 Posts
Btw Rapid + Sayle would be an epic combo. | ||
tanngard
Norway1321 Posts
On April 16 2018 14:51 Peeano wrote: For me the ideal caster(s) will make you want to play the game. Teach you new things either strategically or about the players and the life around it. Without a playerbase there is no future. And learning about players makes you understand and respect them more. Given the competitive nature of BW, that in turn helps create a friendlier gaming experience. Superdanielman and Tasteless was my favorite combination back in the day. SDM gave so much interesting insights about the game and its scene. Tasteless rambled less back then and his jokes were actually funny. Every time I try Tasteless nowadays he just annoys me. (I'm just stating my opinion, I'm not hating on any casters.) How is declaring that Tasteless just annoys you, an interesting or constructive opinion? We have many opinions, but, as I'm sure you are aware, some are probably best to keep for ourselves. | ||
dark.matter
176 Posts
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Shock710
Australia6097 Posts
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Peeano
Netherlands4500 Posts
On April 17 2018 06:29 tanngard wrote: How is declaring that Tasteless just annoys you, an interesting or constructive opinion? We have many opinions, but, as I'm sure you are aware, some are probably best to keep for ourselves. It's not an interesting if you cannot relate. Have you experienced Tasteless and SDM? Maybe I should have kept the last part to myself or maybe worded it differently. It's probably more honest to say he isn't meeting my expectations, at all. I want to like him, like I did in the past. But he really doesn't appeal to me in any way anymore. Hence he annoys me. His years of experience casting SC2 (on top of BW) has not made him a better BW caster, but instead has made him worse. His jokes don't appeal to me anymore, his BW knowledge took a massive hit. And it seems like he hardly takes any time to prepare an upcoming cast or refresh his BW knowledge outside casting the actual matches. I expect more professionalism and maturity from him, (the same goes for Artosis). Over the years he did get to a very decent level of Korean which is commendable. It really baffles me that there are multiple amateur casters in this arguably small community who are able to bring much better commentary than their professional colleagues do. (With fewer resources as well.) As far as I can tell Tastosis have pretty much a monopoly position which is good for them. They earned it, but they also have to keep earning it, right? The overall quality of their casts is just decent at best. It's something I cannot wrap my head around. I just know they can do much better. + Show Spoiler [ASL5] + It's like remembering the godly JvZ and seeing JD go down 2-0. It really just hurts the old fan inside you. I don't even think it's great analogy, but hopefully you get the idea. If you ask me Tastosis are under performing compared to their younger, more inexperienced selves. That is my conclusion every time I try to listen to them since they started casting BW again, even now in ASL5. It's gone from remembering their better casts, to longing for better casts, to disappointment. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24918 Posts
I'm honestly not expecting him to be an expert or anything because I'm not one either. However, if you are unsure of how things are proceeding, take a quick breather, gather your thoughts and make an educated guess on what it might be then stop there. If you are definitely unsure, then just state what's going on and try and figure things out with the co-caster etc... Going full adrenaline in a cast and constantly making wrong calls or misinformation is really detrimental to the experience and seeing Rapid do this in a recent cast was extremely disappointing. I've always watched Korean casts, but not being able to see games live, Afreeca vods being a pain to load etc... has forced me to watch the english casts. On the bright side, I can at least live with the tastosis casts which could be better. | ||
funnybananaman
United States830 Posts
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TheFoReveRwaR
United States10657 Posts
I wish I had actual content to add, but sadly that is all i can say on this unfortunate matter. Tasteless and Artosis are actual broodwar players. That's all that really needs to be said. Buttt I'll just say some more shit. If tasteless or artosis annoys you thats fine...i get it not everyone is appealing to everyone. What's a fact though is that tasteless and artosis are true brood war fans deep down who have played this game since I started. Which is 20 years ago. If you can't appreciate that as a fan listening to a cast, then go fuck yourself Ok I apologize, maybe you like listening to people talk really fast and fake knowledge/passion about what they are casting. Hey whatever you like I've said negative things enough about rapid in other posts (and I'm sure I would've said them about noregret as well) but that is in the past and as I said then; it's not his fault. They need actual brood war players as back ups.... User was warned for this post | ||
tanngard
Norway1321 Posts
On April 17 2018 11:21 Peeano wrote: It's not an interesting if you cannot relate. Have you experienced Tasteless and SDM? Maybe I should have kept the last part to myself or maybe worded it differently. It's probably more honest to say he isn't meeting my expectations, at all. I want to like him, like I did in the past. But he really doesn't appeal to me in any way anymore. Hence he annoys me. His years of experience casting SC2 (on top of BW) has not made him a better BW caster, but instead has made him worse. His jokes don't appeal to me anymore, his BW knowledge took a massive hit. And it seems like he hardly takes any time to prepare an upcoming cast or refresh his BW knowledge outside casting the actual matches. I expect more professionalism and maturity from him, (the same goes for Artosis). Over the years he did get to a very decent level of Korean which is commendable. It really baffles me that there are multiple amateur casters in this arguably small community who are able to bring much better commentary than their professional colleagues do. (With fewer resources as well.) As far as I can tell Tastosis have pretty much a monopoly position which is good for them. They earned it, but they also have to keep earning it, right? The overall quality of their casts is just decent at best. It's something I cannot wrap my head around. I just know they can do much better. + Show Spoiler [ASL5] + It's like remembering the godly JvZ and seeing JD go down 2-0. It really just hurts the old fan inside you. I don't even think it's great analogy, but hopefully you get the idea. If you ask me Tastosis are under performing compared to their younger, more inexperienced selves. That is my conclusion every time I try to listen to them since they started casting BW again, even now in ASL5. It's gone from remembering their better casts, to longing for better casts, to disappointment. Lots of what you write here i can relate to. I feel that Tasteless might not be as up to date on strategy as we would expect him to be. I hope he will refresh his knowledge to a greater degree. But he doesn't annoy me the slightest bit. He has a great chemistry with Artosis. I like his humour and casting style. He is an originial, i defintively appreciate that, rather than him simply imitating a common idea of what a shoutcaster should be. | ||
TheSkilfulQuail
35 Posts
I understand that perhaps their casts can be out of date or perhaps not as informative as die hard fans would like. But it was accessible. I was able to slowly learn the game and I have watched other amateur casters since then who have understood the game brilliantly and given so much insight, but, would have been boring or baffling originally. I feel like such a wonderfully complex and rich game needs an accessible, humorous cast to allow new players to get into the game. After that there's loads of other more complex stuff to find. Basically i see them as the pop easy watching casters and I think they're all awesome | ||
GTR
51142 Posts
On April 17 2018 15:32 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: I've said negative things enough about rapid in other posts (and I'm sure I would've said them about noregret as well) but that is in the past and as I said then; it's not his fault. They need actual brood war players as back ups.... actual bw players who can commentate in english in korea don't exist. simple as that. i was one of them, but i had to move back to australia, and these days there isn't enough job opportunities to cast in korea that i can't go back without living off ramen and living in a shitty box room. | ||
Navane
Netherlands2693 Posts
However, if you want some nice background banter for when you're doing something else, tastosis is so entertaining and familiar. The observer is way more important. He shows you the story that's going on, for you to see. | ||
CHEONSOYUN
493 Posts
On April 16 2018 23:51 Chef wrote: What I do find distracting is if a caster doesn't really understand the result of a battle, and kind of blows it up as a big deal every time, and his play by play is kind of weird and hackneyed. I think even the mediocre players I used to listen to watched and played enough BW to understand just like I did what was and wasn't that big of a deal. When what I think is a big deal and what the caster thinks is a big deal don't line up, it causes dissonance and distraction. This is probably the biggest annoyance. Sometimes casters are not that knowledgeable, don't have a lot of personal history with the game, aren't that skilled, aren't even great casters. Sometimes that's okay. What's not okay is when the commentary is just disrupting the flow of the viewing experience. Perhaps the biggest strength of Korean casting is the levels of excitement that follows the narrative of each game: it stays appropriate and in tune with what's happening; that's why lots of non speakers are able to accept it, because it adds or at least follows along with what they're seeing. To be honest, a lot of Korean analysis, or the analysis offered by "veterans", is not that deep or complex or useful if you've played the game enough you already know what just happened, it's just entertaining to have a voice put that feeling into words. What's not entertaining is when what's being said by the commentator is just inherently pulling me away from that experience and the game. I don't want to mute the game sounds, but I don't want to be continually distracted as i'm watching. | ||
RAPiDCasting
Korea (South)594 Posts
I'm honestly not expecting him to be an expert or anything because I'm not one either. However, if you are unsure of how things are proceeding, take a quick breather, gather your thoughts and make an educated guess on what it might be then stop there. If you are definitely unsure, then just state what's going on and try and figure things out with the casters etc... Going full adrenaline in a post and constantly making wrong posts or misinformation is really detrimental to the experience and seeing BigFan do this in a recent post was extremely disappointing. I've always watched Teamliquid posts, but not being able to see posts live, reddit being a pain to load etc... has forced me to read moderator posts. On the bright side, I can at least live with the actually big fans which could be better. On April 17 2018 12:30 BigFan wrote: While I don't doubt Rapid's passion for the game and think his excitement is genuine (or at least seems to be), seeing him make wrong calls time after time just really hurts the viewing experience. An an example (if my memory serves me right) was from the first group of the Ro16. Rapid was talking about a FD in a TvT (not exactly common, mostly in TvP) and then a quick look at the resource counter showed that Mind was banking money, likely a cc but he was talking about some proxy fac or port or something. I'm honestly not expecting him to be an expert or anything because I'm not one either. However, if you are unsure of how things are proceeding, take a quick breather, gather your thoughts and make an educated guess on what it might be then stop there. If you are definitely unsure, then just state what's going on and try and figure things out with the co-caster etc... Going full adrenaline in a cast and constantly making wrong calls or misinformation is really detrimental to the experience and seeing Rapid do this in a recent cast was extremely disappointing. I've always watched Korean casts, but not being able to see games live, Afreeca vods being a pain to load etc... has forced me to watch the english casts. On the bright side, I can at least live with the tastosis casts which could be better. | ||
Miragee
8304 Posts
On April 22 2018 02:24 rapidtransit247 wrote: While I don't doubt BigFan's passion for teamliquid and think his excitement is genuine (or at least seems to be), seeing him make wrong posts time after time just really hurts the browsing experience. An an example (if my memory serves me right) was from the first noregret + rapidcasting thread. BigFan was talking about a cast with RAPiD and NoRegreT (not exactly common, mostly in desperate situations) and then a quick look at the sheer difficulty of moving to a foreign country to live and work showed that RAPiD was not banking money, likely a sacrifice on his part to because he fucking loves StarCraft. I'm honestly not expecting him to be an expert or anything because I'm not one either. However, if you are unsure of how things are proceeding, take a quick breather, gather your thoughts and make an educated guess on what it might be then stop there. If you are definitely unsure, then just state what's going on and try and figure things out with the casters etc... Going full adrenaline in a post and constantly making wrong posts or misinformation is really detrimental to the experience and seeing BigFan do this in a recent post was extremely disappointing. I've always watched Teamliquid posts, but not being able to see posts live, reddit being a pain to load etc... has forced me to read moderator posts. On the bright side, I can at least live with the actually big fans which could be better. Honestly Rapid, I think Tastosis should be much more under fire considering the difference in BW experience between you and them. Your level of casting is pretty close to theirs so considering your circumstances. You shouldn't take most of what is posted here as a personal insult. For example, I like every caster currently casting BW. They are fun people, their banter is great etc. Tastosis was also my favourite duo in the beginning of SC2 when I still watched that. However, all that doesn't mean there isn't valid criticism to be made and one is that the lack of knowledge across the board annoys quite a few people because it's distracting. How that can be changed is another story but voicing the criticism should be ok and not taken as a personal insult or am I wrong here? | ||
MuNi
United States72 Posts
In regards to Tastosis, I think it's silly to expect them to remember everything that they once knew. They both took an enormous amount of time away from BW, they also cast SC2, and have obligations outside the starcraft world that inhibit them from playing the game 24/7. I enjoy them because they have been around a long time and are a similar age to myself which makes it easier to relate. As for Rapid and NoRegreT, they're fine. Bring em on. Give them more opportunity to cast. I'm %100 excited for fresh faces and voices comming into the scene. What I don't appreciate is having them cast a Ro16 game with Flash in the group. I would prefer to have the hyped groups casted by more knowledgeable people. But there is a catch 22 to this scenario. Rapid and NoRegreT need to get more time practicing casting in order to get better at it (in regards to BW). So I would like to see them cast more so they get better. If I have to grind my teeth through a few casts because they don't know what's up I will survive with the knowing they are passionate and doing their best. From my perspective all the casters could be more knowledgeable about that game and all that reflects is the infinite complexity that BW challenges all of us with. Bring on the fresh faces and let's all try to be supportive. | ||
WGT-Baal
France3158 Posts
I usually prefer the Korean cast though, they have great energy and some interesting things to do, for the few times I actually manage to understand it. | ||
blunderfulguy
United States1412 Posts
On April 22 2018 10:45 MuNi wrote: This is an extremely disappointing thread. Most of the comments here are hip shot and not well thought out. There are a lot of things that go into being a caster, some of which cannot be accurately critiqued on a forum. In regards to Tastosis, I think it's silly to expect them to remember everything that they once knew. They both took an enormous amount of time away from BW, they also cast SC2, and have obligations outside the starcraft world that inhibit them from playing the game 24/7. I enjoy them because they have been around a long time and are a similar age to myself which makes it easier to relate. As for Rapid and NoRegreT, they're fine. Bring em on. Give them more opportunity to cast. I'm %100 excited for fresh faces and voices comming into the scene. What I don't appreciate is having them cast a Ro16 game with Flash in the group. I would prefer to have the hyped groups casted by more knowledgeable people. But there is a catch 22 to this scenario. Rapid and NoRegreT need to get more time practicing casting in order to get better at it (in regards to BW). So I would like to see them cast more so they get better. If I have to grind my teeth through a few casts because they don't know what's up I will survive with the knowing they are passionate and doing their best. From my perspective all the casters could be more knowledgeable about that game and all that reflects is the infinite complexity that BW challenges all of us with. Bring on the fresh faces and let's all try to be supportive. More or less ditto for me. On April 16 2018 10:51 Waxangel wrote: I was wondering, do you guys want BW knowledge from casters because it's actually USEFUL to you and they are teaching you things you didn't know? Or is it because you feel like it's something a broadcast 'should' have, because it just FEELS right to you for whatever reason (maybe it gives the broadcast a feeling of legitimacy, professionalism, etc.) I've always felt (well, not always, but for years now) that the SC community in general (BW and SC2) feels like StarCraft games must have either a very specific type of casting that varies from person to person, or they have an unattainably high expectation of all casters save, for example, Tastosis or [insert fan favorite caster here]. There's this whole "if you aren't exactly like my own idea of who/what Tastosis is then you're bad" idea (again, just using Tastosis as an example) and I know where it comes from (they are really darn good at what they do) but I can't get behind that mentality. And, idk, maybe it isn't as much of the community thinking that as it feels to me that it is, but there's certainly a massive amount of members vocalizing it everywhere. "Who are these clowns?", very clearly, aggressively demanding one caster over another, "[insert pretty much anyone here] IS SO ANNOYING", "muting this shit caster", so on and so on. To me, professionalism is so much more than "has a massive library of knowledge about the game", but that's the definition that RTS and some DOTA/what-have-you viewers have. If you go to a Wednesday Night Fights stream or anything I've seen/heard Tasty Steve and Sajam do it's wildly different: The casters who are energetic, passionate and positive are the ones who are asked to come back and are usually the ones who excel, but it never feels like the FGC must have the things the RTS community demands. There's a certain expectation that whoever is on the mic should know how to commentate and play the game, but even then the amount of people who are negative about it are the vast minority (from what I've seen). Or, when people say "who are these clowns" it's followed by [insert positive "Wow!" emote here], when people say "muting these trash casters" it's at least followed by [insert sarcastic, funny emote here]. That's a lot of stuff I feel is missing when ZombieGrub does commentary on a big stage, or when NoRegret gets to cast legendary BW players live in Korea, or when a player is asked to cast and they say yes and get on the mic and cast some StarCraft. There's plenty of excitement, but there's plenty of bashing alongside it. | ||
SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
I think Rapid as a caster is, and always will be, solid. He admits mistakes, he tries to give a good portion of knowledge that he has. Given Rapid casts a lot of different games, is involved in a ton of communities, he does an amazing job. NoRegret doesn't play this game, but in a way it's kinda nice to see someone ask the incredibly novice questions, for those newer players. I think NoRegret should weigh on that more heavily, acting as more the "Wait, how does this work" kinda caster. | ||
Miragee
8304 Posts
On April 22 2018 15:03 SchAmToo wrote: Every caster who's not Tasteless or Artosis run into the same problem. We get a shit ton of hate for, a majority of the reason, we're not them. I think Rapid as a caster is, and always will be, solid. He admits mistakes, he tries to give a good portion of knowledge that he has. Given Rapid casts a lot of different games, is involved in a ton of communities, he does an amazing job. NoRegret doesn't play this game, but in a way it's kinda nice to see someone ask the incredibly novice questions, for those newer players. I think NoRegret should weigh on that more heavily, acting as more the "Wait, how does this work" kinda caster. Actually, NoRegret had some moments where he was like "I don't know anything about this game but I think x is a good position because of y" or "I don't know anything about this game but I think x should do y do counter this, no?" and I was like "damn, right on boy". | ||
orvinreyes
577 Posts
On April 16 2018 10:51 Waxangel wrote: I was wondering, do you guys want BW knowledge from casters because it's actually USEFUL to you and they are teaching you things you didn't know? Or is it because you feel like it's something a broadcast 'should' have, because it just FEELS right to you for whatever reason (maybe it gives the broadcast a feeling of legitimacy, professionalism, etc.) The latter. Starcraft is a one-on-one sport akin to tennis and boxing. In both sports they've decided to include commentators who are pros or ex-pros to balance out spectator bias. For example, John McEnroe for tennis and Tim Bradley for boxing. They attempt to remove a lot of the guesswork regular viewers have by talking about strategy and mindset based on professional experience. Of course they can't predict everything but it gives a solid sense of legitimacy versus just having surface-level commentary. | ||
Eskiya23
Netherlands105 Posts
That being said, Rapid did 99% of the talking and gave noregret an easy 1-2 from time to time. Noregret, being a player first caster second, was lacking the fluent conversation or flow between casters. Sure, he spoke his thoughts, but as an other progamer would understand. I guess it comes with experience, I can imagine noregret didnt want to ramble or say something untrue. | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
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YPang
United States4024 Posts
I think that's the problem with casters is that most of the current popular casters right now don't have enough game knowledge to make useful comments nor explain the strategic plays to the viewers because they don't understand it themselves, just a bunch of jokes to talk for the sake of talking or simply just stating the obvious over and over They are good entertainers for beginner BW fans watching the VODs. | ||
RAPiDCasting
Korea (South)594 Posts
On April 22 2018 20:37 YPang wrote: Anyone who casts should actually play the game, or have competed at a semi competitive level. Neither rapid nor noregret understands the game at a deep enough level to commentate. Rapid just regurgitates whatever artosis says without the understanding aspect, and noregret obviously has 0 idea. I think that's the problem with casters is that most of the current popular casters right now don't have enough game knowledge to make useful comments nor explain the strategic plays to the viewers because they don't understand it themselves, just a bunch of jokes to talk for the sake of talking or simply just stating the obvious over and over They are good entertainers for beginner BW fans watching the VODs. Tell me more | ||
SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On April 22 2018 20:37 YPang wrote: Anyone who casts should actually play the game, or have competed at a semi competitive level. Neither rapid nor noregret understands the game at a deep enough level to commentate. Rapid just regurgitates whatever artosis says without the understanding aspect, and noregret obviously has 0 idea. I think that's the problem with casters is that most of the current popular casters right now don't have enough game knowledge to make useful comments nor explain the strategic plays to the viewers because they don't understand it themselves, just a bunch of jokes to talk for the sake of talking or simply just stating the obvious over and over They are good entertainers for beginner BW fans watching the VODs. I disagree personally, but I guess it varies from person to person. I value color commentary more than analytical casting. And I think Artosis/Rapid actually have pretty nice synergy. During the earlier ASLs I think some of the commentators tried to be more informational but it was very basic things since the majority of the audience are going to be people who don't have a strong fundamental grasp of how the game works, and the more veteran viewers shit on that casters for not being "thorough". And there was quite a bit of hate towards the casters for using comparisons in SC2 and explaining the differences of the units between two games. Usually I agree with the community on these issues, but I feel pretty strongly that people have been unfair to casters, because it seems like we run in circles about what we want, and when the casters try to change their style, instead of being pleased, we say "not good enough". | ||
GornWood
Germany121 Posts
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
Yeah, this is a weird thing. "have competed at a semi competitive level". Everyone wants this, but guess what, a lot of the most famous casters never did. Shit tons of professional casters never played at a competitive level, Tastosis did, and that's why they're one of the best. I never did, and shame you'll never like my casting! | ||
Abjurer
Sweden200 Posts
My favourite active caster is FlashFTW tho | ||
Miragee
8304 Posts
On April 23 2018 00:36 SchAmToo wrote: Yeah, this is a weird thing. "have competed at a semi competitive level". Everyone wants this, but guess what, a lot of the most famous casters never did. Shit tons of professional casters never played at a competitive level, Tastosis did, and that's why they're one of the best. I never did, and shame you'll never like my casting! The funny thing is that Tasteless and Artosis actually competed at a semi-professional level way back in the day yet everybody "shits" on them now. I criticise them as well. I think my hardest criticism would be that they show no progress. In the beginning people said that they are just back in BW yadayada. Ok. But now they have been back for a year or so, play BW, watch BW all day and getting paid to cast BW professional. Considering they have a background of casting/playing BW at a high level all the aforementioned stuff should get them back really quick but instead they almost make no progress. It almost feels like they are too arrogant to learn all that stuff because they are the knowledgeable veterans. I don't know how many times Artosis uttered the phrase "Uh I once knew but I can't remember but I'm pretty sure it's x" and x is just wrong... If you play and watch the game actively like they claim, how are they in the dark regarding so many strategies, counters, state of the game etc.? On April 23 2018 01:27 Abjurer wrote: I really like Rapid as a caster, he's witty and is a good entertainer. Sometimes he takes tangents too far and his game knowledge could use some polishing but he is a great addition to the BW scene! My favourite active caster is FlashFTW tho From the active casters, my favourite is FlashFTW as well. Although he didn't actually play at a high level you could see his progress in knowledge over time. | ||
Qikz
United Kingdom12011 Posts
I missed the NoRegret cast, but Rapid is awesome and I hope y'all don't treat him badly, because we don't deserve someone who cares as much as he does! <3 | ||
YPang
United States4024 Posts
On April 23 2018 00:36 SchAmToo wrote: Yeah, this is a weird thing. "have competed at a semi competitive level". Everyone wants this, but guess what, a lot of the most famous casters never did. Shit tons of professional casters never played at a competitive level, Tastosis did, and that's why they're one of the best. I never did, and shame you'll never like my casting! I meant currently play the game OR competed at a semi competitive level. Artosis still plays and have competed at a pretty high level, tastless probably doesnt play much anymore but has competed before. If you don't currently play the game nor have in the past, you can possibly get your game knowledge up by watching a ton of korean streams/FPVODs. Why is game experience so valued? It's because if you understand what's happening strategically at each stage of the game, early, mid, late, and how the previous can affect the other, you can be genuinely excited when something small happens and can inform the viewers. If you don't understand, then you just act excited during fights and explosions. When I watch artosis/tasteless'/korean casts, they are genuinely excited about the game, I can't feel that with rapid or noregret, which makes it sound like "a High schooler trying to BS an english paper". In addition, If you have a deep understanding of the game, you can change your commentary style from jokes and such to explaining to the viewers about the complexity of the match. Otherwise you're stuck with 1 style. Here's an example: if an scv dies a few seconds after scouting zerg's extractor. It can be huge because it takes ~20 seconds to mine 100 gas to get zergling speed or lair, so terrans should start looking at the timer and add 20 seconds. By that time, you should see a lair, if not it's probably speed. Therefore, the terran missed that window of knowing what the zerg upgraded first and the game can end in the next 2-3mins from a zergling bust. One of my favorite casters was super daniel man, the eSTRO coach that spoke english. He gave such great insights into every game, and the mindset of a BO3 or BO5 MU, and how to play when you're ahead or how to play when you're behind. But putting yourself out there to the public as a caster is hard, you will get criticisms, and you can't make everyone happy, and I can't do any better of a job. There isn't a guideline for how to measure commentating abilities objectively. I personally don't like it when casters go too far off on a tangent because there is a lot to explain, but it seems like there is a good enough crowd who do. | ||
ColdLava
Canada1673 Posts
On April 22 2018 15:03 SchAmToo wrote: Every caster who's not Tasteless or Artosis run into the same problem. We get a shit ton of hate for, a majority of the reason, we're not them. I think Rapid as a caster is, and always will be, solid. He admits mistakes, he tries to give a good portion of knowledge that he has. Given Rapid casts a lot of different games, is involved in a ton of communities, he does an amazing job. NoRegret doesn't play this game, but in a way it's kinda nice to see someone ask the incredibly novice questions, for those newer players. I think NoRegret should weigh on that more heavily, acting as more the "Wait, how does this work" kinda caster. I don't believe this sentiment to be true. In fact, I have a hard time listening to Tasteless commentate SC2 for the same reason having a hard time listening to Rapid cast BW - it doesn't seem like they've played the game. That being said, I have a hard time seeing this as a thing that gets them paid much, and obviously there is a shortage of commentators around, at least there is someone doing it. A good commentator can commentate the game, while also analyzing the game. It's difficult because you have two processes going on at once. Day[9] was incredible at both giving a play by play of what is happening, AND giving very good insight as to what the player is trying to do, what he's anticipating, etc. The benefit of doing this is that the commentator doesn't need to say that the same is exciting, he just says why it's exciting and the viewer picks up on it. Edit: I guess I just said what YPang said in a different way, whose post has a really good way of putting it. | ||
Incomplete..ReV
Norway598 Posts
Personally, I find those factors to be the most important, and then high level game knowledge coming down a bit on the list. Yes, it's important to convey what's going on and to give some extra insights on that. And quite frankly I think it's clear that Rapid, Artosis and Tasteless all play the game and do their research - talking about recent results in various tournaments, on ladder, the general history of players and all that. Some calls are wrong and sometimes there's a lot of wrong calls. But that's something that can be improved upon. Having it in you to leave everyone behind and live in South-Korea is not something so easily worked on. Nor having the passion to not only doing all that work on a low income (based on various comments during casts, please correct me if I'm wrong here, Rapid), but also continously getting flak from the community. Feedback is fine, but some of the criticism to various casters seems completely baseless. The accused lack of updated information on Tastosis, for instance, seems baffling to me having followed them through all ASLs. And even if it's not perfect, it's still plenty high enough level. As I feel Rapid is getting the most flak, I'd have to ask - who else? Who else amongst casters have it in them to live in South-Korea? Learn Korean, make new circles of friends, maybe have to put lovelife on hold for who knows many years, take shit from armchair professional, learn enough about SC2 as well to cast it and all that? Yes, give feedback. But for heaven's sake, try to put yourself in their shoes! We have people actually going out there, trying to build our community. There's a time to give feedback, and there's a time to think that what needs to be said has been said, and then we should wait. Be patient. I do want it to be perfectly clear that I am not claiming that none of the feedback is called for. Nor do I want to say that everyone in this topic just just giving flak for no good reason. But I think it's extra important that we remind ourselves how lucky we are to have people doing the tremendous job they're doing, and that no such work is without fault. Look at the bigger picture. There's more to it than the couple of hours we see on the screen - it's their life. | ||
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
Edit: the poster above is correct. | ||
tanngard
Norway1321 Posts
On April 23 2018 21:40 Incomplete..ReV wrote: I feel like a lot of people have unrealistic expectations of casters, and of the situation overall. It's not like it's the biggest community, and as such we have a rather small group of people to choose from to do this specific job. We also have to take into consideration that we also need someone willing to travel all the way to South-Korea and live there, seemingly on not exactly the most luxurious payroll. In addition to that, we also need consistency and enthusiasm over the game. Personally, I find those factors to be the most important, and then high level game knowledge coming down a bit on the list. Yes, it's important to convey what's going on and to give some extra insights on that. And quite frankly I think it's clear that Rapid, Artosis and Tasteless all play the game and do their research - talking about recent results in various tournaments, on ladder, the general history of players and all that. Some calls are wrong and sometimes there's a lot of wrong calls. But that's something that can be improved upon. Having it in you to leave everyone behind and live in South-Korea is not something so easily worked on. Nor having the passion to not only doing all that work on a low income (based on various comments during casts, please correct me if I'm wrong here, Rapid), but also continously getting flak from the community. Feedback is fine, but some of the criticism to various casters seems completely baseless. The accused lack of updated information on Tastosis, for instance, seems baffling to me having followed them through all ASLs. And even if it's not perfect, it's still plenty high enough level. As I feel Rapid is getting the most flak, I'd have to ask - who else? Who else amongst casters have it in them to live in South-Korea? Learn Korean, make new circles of friends, maybe have to put lovelife on hold for who knows many years, take shit from armchair professional, learn enough about SC2 as well to cast it and all that? Yes, give feedback. But for heaven's sake, try to put yourself in their shoes! We have people actually going out there, trying to build our community. There's a time to give feedback, and there's a time to think that what needs to be said has been said, and then we should wait. Be patient. I do want it to be perfectly clear that I am not claiming that none of the feedback is called for. Nor do I want to say that everyone in this topic just just giving flak for no good reason. But I think it's extra important that we remind ourselves how lucky we are to have people doing the tremendous job they're doing, and that no such work is without fault. Look at the bigger picture. There's more to it than the couple of hours we see on the screen - it's their life. Thank you for your balanced post. Too often people forget that commentators who puts their name, face and personality out there, deserves respect for this very fact alone. Meanwhile they criticize them behind the comfort of their anonymous IDs - worth to think about? I'm not against criticism either, but it's worth to spend some time putting yourself in the shoes of who you are forwarding that criticism towards. The BW community, as a whole, is also a relatively small one, for the most part existing online, and hence our words often reach out to the kind of public figures we are discussing here. So only talking negative about Tastosis let's say, and then complaining about why they would perhaps not care more about us, the grassroots, is quite ironic eh? | ||
Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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art_of_turtle
United States1153 Posts
let's not forget that they double down as translators for interviews, which IMO is one of my favorite part of the english cast. Hearing the players thoughts, and usual grattitude of the fans makes watching brood war all the more worth it. (and also trying to predict their feelings and get a better liquibet in) | ||
BigFan
TLADT24918 Posts
On April 22 2018 02:24 RAPiDCasting. wrote: While I don't doubt BigFan's passion for teamliquid and think his excitement is genuine (or at least seems to be), seeing him make wrong posts time after time just really hurts the browsing experience. An an example (if my memory serves me right) was from the first noregret + rapidcasting thread. BigFan was talking about a cast with RAPiD and NoRegreT (not exactly common, mostly in desperate situations) and then a quick look at the sheer difficulty of moving to a foreign country to live and work showed that RAPiD was not banking money, likely a sacrifice on his part to because he fucking loves StarCraft. I'm honestly not expecting him to be an expert or anything because I'm not one either. However, if you are unsure of how things are proceeding, take a quick breather, gather your thoughts and make an educated guess on what it might be then stop there. If you are definitely unsure, then just state what's going on and try and figure things out with the casters etc... Going full adrenaline in a post and constantly making wrong posts or misinformation is really detrimental to the experience and seeing BigFan do this in a recent post was extremely disappointing. I've always watched Teamliquid posts, but not being able to see posts live, reddit being a pain to load etc... has forced me to read moderator posts. On the bright side, I can at least live with the actually big fans which could be better. While there is a chance that this was made in jest, I thought that it's best I reply to your post in the off chance that it's not. I'm going to be frank in my post so if any of this feels rough, apologies in advance. I believe that the post I wrote was pretty alright. I can't speak for all the other feedback provided in this thread since I have to go back and read them again, but my post was pretty fair and on point. I gave 2 examples from a recent broadcast of what I thought was something to improve on. I commended you for doing your best and praised your passion and excitement. I even went as far as stating that I have no issues if you lack the knowledge, so long as you take a breather and try to figure things out instead of just leaping to the first thing that comes to mind. Even the best players will take a few moments to collect their thoughts before stating what they believe is going down to go down. Starcraft is a complex game. Unless you play the game at the highest levels for years on end and spend a lot of time learning the game, you'll make a lot of mistakes. Another thing I didn't bother mentioning, but maybe I should've is messing up the players. Stating player x lost his army when it was player y who did etc... I didn't bother because it seemed petty and we all make mistakes anyways so not a big deal. One thing that you seem to miss Rapid is that this is your job. Yes, you made a sacrifice, but I don't believe that renders you free from criticism. I tried giving constructive feedback so that you can improve and get less hate from any haters. Alas, it seems like my advice fell on deaf ears, disappointing :/ PS If you'd rather take this privately, feel free to pm me ~ | ||
fazek42
Hungary438 Posts
Yep, the TvT FD call and stuff like that is... not ideal (pretty stand-out moment for myself too), but then again, how is a caster whose strongpoints are great fluency and creativity with the language, energy and synergy, charming personality, and a true commentators soul is supposed to know something he doesn't know? Like, "you should not get excited when you are talking about something which you are wrong about". Pretty sure if he knew he was wrong he wouldn't have, but this is like saying, git gud, so you can always know or at least always have some sort of doubts about yourself and not get excited wrongly! That'd make Rapid and insecure and useless caster instead of the colourful, humorous (quick to make a joke of himself too!). Personality is personality, "pay attention to when you might be unsure" is not really a useable mental cue for a commentator. It's just not how sitting and looking at something and having to talk works, not for him anyway. And that's fine. He'll treat the criticism like an adult who knows what the esport business is like and with humour and will be getting better and better. There will be people who'll like his casting style more than others, and there'll be people who'll like it less than others. Such is life. Shoutout to noregret -- great caster, great style, and despite his absence of bw knowledge many surprisingly accurate theories, assumptions and thoughts only proved what an experienced, professional and intelligent rts caster he is. Loved it! So there you have it -- always room to improve, naturally, but please (commentator) guys do grow a thick skin. These kind of threads are a given around here, and bound to happen, but I'd hate to see you start feeling bad about them or yourselves. That'd be like feeling bad that the earth is spinning and sun goes up and down the horizon. In other words, pretty silly. Love to have you in the community! | ||
SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On April 24 2018 06:52 BigFan wrote: One thing that you seem to miss Rapid is that this is your job. Yes, you made a sacrifice, but I don't believe that renders you free from criticism. I tried giving constructive feedback so that you can improve and get less hate from any haters. Alas, it seems like my advice fell on deaf ears, disappointing :/ There was a small documentary video of Tasteless and Artosis talking about how hard they struggled when they first arrived in Korea and how much work they put into their casts. Something that has stayed with me personally is when Tasteless mentioned that no one is more critical of their casts than they are. Just as you are free to criticize, they are free to disagree or be upset with the community's feedback. I believe everyone has a right to criticize and speak their opinion, but you can't act like your words have no effect on other people's emotions just because they get paid to do it. People who are being heavily critical of casters and actually hold the opinion that somehow casters think they shouldn't be criticized need to step back and gain some self-awareness. They've been dealing with heavy criticism since StarCraft: Remastered's release. Look at what people are saying in these threads every time they are created. There is always a vocal minority who go past constructive criticism and instead say rude, uninformed, and hurtful opinions that don't contribute a single thing to the discussions. And on top of that, I've never seen any of the casters ever make the argument they shouldn't be subjected to feedback. I'm not advocating a reform, harder moderation, or for people to silence themselves. I just think if we're going to actually talk about this problem, we should frame it right. And you framed it really wrong. | ||
MarcoJ
Germany146 Posts
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YPang
United States4024 Posts
Any entertainer is going to get criticized, it's not the first and won't be the last. Part of the job of the entertainer is to take whatever criticism either constructive or non constructive from the community and filter it out. A musician, no matter how good or bad, if they put a song out, it's going to get praise and criticized. The musician/caster should then take the constructive and using that information to improve upon, and ignoring the non constructive and not be emotionally invested in those comments. Sure we want to frame the words as best as possible to deliver the message as harmless as we can, but sometimes words don't come out right, it's just easier to state it as it is, or there's just no other easy way of sugar coating it. Criticism when it is not sugar coated can be hard to take in. But it is still necessary to ask whether or not the criticism is true before getting offended by it. It's not the critics fault if the caster is offended and won't take in any constructive criticism/feedback, because it is the caster himself who allowed these comments get into his head. And again, we as the community should try our best to voice our opinions/feedback as "nicely" as possible, but we obviously can't control what kind of comments comes out of people. Therefore again, it is up to the caster himself to have a thick skin and filter out what is constructive and what is not, that's part of the job of an entertainer. | ||
Chef
10810 Posts
It kinda makes me think back to the days when I would post stuff I created on the internet and read the comments. Ultimately you get such a wide variety of responses that you pretty much do whatever you feel like, unless someone you respect and admire gives advice (and even then, it is often better you don't give too much credit). Sometimes you can get inspired by feedback that plays into how you're thinking, but people are not wrong at all when they say complaining someone doesn't know enough about the game is not going to help at all, because the solution to that is unrealistic. I think most creative people learn to ignore the bulk of comments they get on their creations, and it is probably for the best. Except when you get advice from someone who is like-minded, it's probably only going to throw you off of what you want to do with your stuff. | ||
Miragee
8304 Posts
On April 25 2018 05:29 Chef wrote: Well, the criticism is probably not productive in any way, whether it is constructive or not. It is just venting. It makes me second guess why we do it, since at best we're gentle enough not to hurt someone's feelings, and at worst we do. What the heck? | ||
BigFan
TLADT24918 Posts
On April 25 2018 03:19 SCC-Faust wrote: There was a small documentary video of Tasteless and Artosis talking about how hard they struggled when they first arrived in Korea and how much work they put into their casts. Something that has stayed with me personally is when Tasteless mentioned that no one is more critical of their casts than they are. Just as you are free to criticize, they are free to disagree or be upset with the community's feedback. I believe everyone has a right to criticize and speak their opinion, but you can't act like your words have no effect on other people's emotions just because they get paid to do it. People who are being heavily critical of casters and actually hold the opinion that somehow casters think they shouldn't be criticized need to step back and gain some self-awareness. They've been dealing with heavy criticism since StarCraft: Remastered's release. Look at what people are saying in these threads every time they are created. There is always a vocal minority who go past constructive criticism and instead say rude, uninformed, and hurtful opinions that don't contribute a single thing to the discussions. And on top of that, I've never seen any of the casters ever make the argument they shouldn't be subjected to feedback. I'm not advocating a reform, harder moderation, or for people to silence themselves. I just think if we're going to actually talk about this problem, we should frame it right. And you framed it really wrong. Faust, maybe you should go back and reread our mini-convo because you're veering in a different direction than what I was intending. Also, my post actually had other paragraphs to it so I'm not a bigfan of you isolating a single point and ignoring everything else I wrote. I never said that he has to agree with the community's feedback. My comment represents myself only which is why I made sure to note that I can't say much on the quality of the feedback provided. I also never said that he shouldn't disagree or be upset over the feedback. Everyone handles feedback differently and some use it to get better while others may not be able to handle it as well. Regardless of all that, moving to Korea and deciding to become a caster was a decision he made. He's a public figure so to speak so he will be criticized by how he casts and behaves. Whether its excessive or not is another point. This doesn't mean that all feedback is void either. Of course, if the feedback is destructive and is attacking the caster, it's worthless, but constructive feedback can do wonders. Only he can chose whether he wants to accept it or not though. Anyways, I said my piece already so gonna leave it be ~ | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9365 Posts
On April 25 2018 03:19 SCC-Faust wrote: And on top of that, I've never seen any of the casters ever make the argument they shouldn't be subjected to feedback. I mean, Rapid did basically that with his childish response to the BigFan's original post. I really don't understand why would you reply to a post in such a mocking way, obfuscating the point you're trying to make beyond recognition. I guess mocking was the point, but still, seemed way uncalled for to me. Anyway, I think anyone who's in the public eye (heck, anyone who interacts with people in general) should read this article: https://github.com/raganwald/presentations/blob/master/optimism.md It's written with developers in mind, but it's a pretty general presentation. | ||
Miragee
8304 Posts
On April 25 2018 06:08 BigFan wrote: I'm not a bigfan Lies. On a more serious note: I completely side with BigFan here. Well worded. | ||
[sc1f]eonzerg
Belgium6325 Posts
On April 25 2018 07:10 2Pacalypse- wrote: I mean, Rapid did basically that with his childish response to the BigFan's original post. I really don't understand why would you reply to a post in such a mocking way, obfuscating the point you're trying to make beyond recognition. I guess mocking was the point, but still, seemed way uncalled for to me. Anyway, I think anyone who's in the public eye (heck, anyone who interacts with people in general) should read this article: https://github.com/raganwald/presentations/blob/master/optimism.md It's written with developers in mind, but it's a pretty general presentation. i dont think rapid will answer the same way again,i mean based in the amount of replies and the way he did that day it was obvious to me that something is off,atleast is not the way he interacted in the past here on TL.so i dont think we really need to keep growing the fire. Rapid has to improve his game knowledge ? Yes and im sure he is doing efforts and eventually will improve more,His game knowledge is worse than Qikz ? yes we say it not problem. We need to bash rapid cuz he sux and we prefer Sayle or someone else that didnt play sc2 so the community can feel about it ? No,in the begin sayle was really lacking basics,but he improved so much that u cant name a better BW caster really. Personally i like the fact that we have ASL caster rapid in the community and trying to help the game. + im sure that for most of us we actually prefer watching the ASL in korean even if we dont understand sh*t lol | ||
SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On April 25 2018 06:08 BigFan wrote: Faust, maybe you should go back and reread our mini-convo because you're veering in a different direction than what I was intending. Also, my post actually had other paragraphs to it so I'm not a bigfan of you isolating a single point and ignoring everything else I wrote. Just to be clear, I read all the posts in this topic. In fact, the reason I didn't respond to the rest of your post was because I mostly agreed with it. Your feedback is fair and well written. I have nothing to contribute towards that, and I have nothing else to continue the conversation in that direction because I don't see anyone disagreeing with that. I am unsure about Rapid's opinion because his post was satirical in nature and from my experiences with him on Discord he jests around a lot. I legitimately don't know what his opinion is about the feedback in this thread, and I'm not going to guess. I strongly disagree with your ending statement though. You have a point and I won't deny that when it is someone's job, there is expectations in place about how a public figure should handle themselves. In part, casters are a face of StarCraft: Remastered and to a degree their actions represent us. Also, I believe constructive criticism should always be protected. I would not change a thing about how Teamliquid handles it. That said, it is really hard to deny that when these topics come up there are always a handful of people who do not provide any meaningful discussion. We've had multiple casters voice their concern on this forum about the demeanor of the community. Do I agree with what they say? Not always. But I think it is very wrong to make the assumption that they believe they are free from criticism because they find problems with how we criticize. That creates an impasse due to two sides having completely two different interpretations of the events that take place. | ||
Luddite
United States2315 Posts
On April 24 2018 19:46 fazek42 wrote: Quick positive note to casters: I love you guys all. You are doing great! Like seriously great. All of you. Remember, the people who are content and happy will not be nearly as loud as the ones who are not. This. It's easy to sit on my couch and criticize things that are less than perfect. But I find them all entertaining, and I think casting Brood War must be almost as hard as playing it, so I forgive minor mistakes just like I forgive the players for not always being perfect. I remember when there were no English casters at all, and what we have now is just way better. | ||
Jealous
9974 Posts
Throughout all that time, the situation feels like it hasn't changed at all. We have had numerous contributors to the community come in guns blazing and then fade away, burn out, shat all over, etc. We have a relatively unskilled caster who is passionate about the game, puts in a ton of time, effort, and in some case sacrifices to bring his content to the community. The community is divided between people who constantly want x and y from the caster (oftentimes in-game skill and knowledge), and the people who say "it's okay, keep up the good work." The fact of the matter is, it's hard to both invest a lot of time into casting and still have time and energy to get good enough at the game to appease the people who expect a greater depth of understanding of the game from the caster. What I mean is, if you think about how many months or years it took you to get to this point in your game knowledge, I think you will appreciate how daunting of a task it is to someone who is relatively fresh in the scene to rapidly improve their understanding of the game. Unlike the mechanical aspects or the absolute fundamentals of Brood War, which I think someone can grasp relatively quickly, having game sense and knowledge takes a lot of experience, time, and often guidance. If these people you judge are spending hours each day simply dispensing their current knowledge (and learning a bit in the process through observation/casting itself), do you expect them to invest hours upon hours into playing and studying the game as well, free of pay and on their own time? Let's also not forget that many of us got to our level of skill by investing hours upon hours in college, high school, middle school, etc. These people are now adults with professional lives and real life demands that we didn't have when we were starting the foundation of the skills we have, atop which we look down and judge these people. TLDR: Just telling a caster to "get better game knowledge bro" is like telling a 4th grader who is years away from trigonometry to "just learn calculus in your free time bro." They will, eventually, if they keep at it. But you can't exactly do it overnight, so repeating it over and over while the process is slowly progressing is just wasting your breath. I like what someone earlier said about it being more about progress than current status. If Tastosis haven't been getting better since they returned a year ago, that is troubling. The fact that Rapid is getting better (a lot better, according to some people in here), is a great thing and should be applauded more. In general, I agree with Schamtoo (I believe it was him that said this, may have been others as well) in that casters generally get shat on disproportionately in the community. In this thread it has mostly been civil, but casters get shat on in other mediums all the time - Discord, stream chat, private messages, etc. For God's sake, I saw someone mention that a caster said it was the wrong person's army at some point? Like, Player X's army in stead of Player Y? Bruh, do you expect these casters to be superhuman and never make a simple verbal error of that nature? Even in top sports, commentators misspeak all the time. Anyway, I think that this stems from a lack of appreciation for the progress, and a lack of perspective about how difficult it is to accelerate that progress or reach a level that would be universally considered acceptable, not to mention laudable. You also have to wonder why the people who are great at the game not casting, but that's again getting off on that tangent from earlier in the post, so I'll leave that thought piece unfinished. TL;DR: Should casters strive to know more about the game that they are casting? Yes. Is it reasonable to expect casters to know about the game that they are casting? Yes. Should we be more understanding of the difficulties of getting to that point? Yes. Should we shit on them in the meantime? No. Is it reasonable to be concerned about the fact that casters are misrepresenting the game, the strategies, etc. to new players and potentially dispensing false information? Yes. Should casters make it obvious that they aren't sure about something before saying something? Yes. Should casters be overly defensive about getting criticism? No, but keep in mind that these casters get shat on regularly already. If you're a high level player, what are you watching English casts for? a. Entertainment -> You should be set. b. To learn about the game -> Sorry fam, but there aren't many casters out there who have played or watched the game as much as you. c. To complain about the casters -> Lol. d. You don't, you just watch the Korean casts -> Cool, I feel you. If you're a low level player, what are you watching Engling casts for? a. Entertainment -> You should be set. b. To learn about the game -> Take what you hear with a grain of salt. c. Same as above. d. Same as above. If you're an English caster? a. People giving you reasonable criticism? Try to keep it in mind, but don't burn yourself out. b. People giving you unreasonable criticism/shitting on you? Fuck 'em, ignore 'em. c. You're not improving? Seek help, ask questions, do research. d. You are improving? Keep up the good work. | ||
zerglingling
131 Posts
On April 25 2018 07:10 2Pacalypse- wrote: Anyway, I think anyone [...] who interacts with people in general [...] should read this article. I think it's horse shit. | ||
2Pacalypse-
Croatia9365 Posts
You're free to do your own research and come up with an alternative theory to explain the empirical data you see. After you do that, make sure to submit your paper for publication so it can be peer-reviewed. I'm sure Dr. Seligman who did that already would be more than happy to give you his opinion on it. Heck, I would also be very interested in reading it. | ||
[DUF]MethodMan
Germany1716 Posts
Might as well close the forums entirely then, yea. I love bashing casters for various reasons (hi inc) and while I didn't see the games, how can anyone expect SC2 players/casters to immediately do well in BW? If there is noone else to do these casts, you can a) mute them or b) try to enjoy them for what they bring to the cast. Tasteless and Artosis are held to a different standard and that's only right. Them being lazy about BW I can only agree on. But please, if you do hate on someone new trying it out, go ahead record yourself casting a few games and apply for the next event. Fact is, there are barely enough players to keep the game alive, so it's only natural there being a shortage of well-educated casters. €: I can't remember any caster who did "big" events starting out even remotely doing well. Most casters do what they do because they enjoy watching the game way more than playing it, no sane person should expect them to be at "at least semi-pro level". I did quite a lot of replay casting way back in the day and I can only tell, BW is fucking hard to get a grip on how to cast and I've played at (foreign ofc) semi-professional level. Oh, and they guy saying the observer being way more important is 100% right. BW is old as shit and I guess the vast majority of people watching it are old as shit as well, at least when considering the typical Twitch chat crowd. I haven't really played the game for about 7-8 years, but I could still identify 90% of all builds and situations correctly by just seeing them. It's not like that many things have changed. | ||
Lazare1969
United States318 Posts
On April 25 2018 22:12 2Pacalypse- wrote: You're free to do your own research and come up with an alternative theory to explain the empirical data you see. After you do that, make sure to submit your paper for publication so it can be peer-reviewed. I'm sure Dr. Seligman who did that already would be more than happy to give you his opinion on it. Heck, I would also be very interested in reading it. It seems like a lot of his ideas devolve into generic "Don't rock the boat" self-help stuff that incorrectly implies human psychology is more or less an independent entity from the surrounding environment. If it helps you, great, keep listening to it. Lots of people join religions for the same reason. But for those of us who see things on a more macro level, i.e. the effects of an economic system (and the stage it's in) and the physical environment on the population, then it's hard to take Seligman's solutions seriously. Furthermore, the human brain is too complex for there to be any "one size fits all" positive psychology approach. One day this will be considered an archaic and medieval approach. Until all components of the human brain can be fully reverse engineered and translated into computer data that can be analyzed by humans with the assistance of AI, we will never truly understand and accurately diagnose mental disorders like clinical depression. Hope this tangent clarifies why soft sciences will forever be hotly debated and many theories will be dismissed as "horse shit." | ||
L_Master
United States7946 Posts
On April 22 2018 15:03 SchAmToo wrote: Every caster who's not Tasteless or Artosis run into the same problem. We get a shit ton of hate for, a majority of the reason, we're not them. Maybe it's selective memory, but I don't recall ever getting any sort of hate. I think Sayle was lucky and didn't get much either. | ||
lemmata
465 Posts
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Ty2
United States1431 Posts
On April 25 2018 07:42 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: His game knowledge is worse than Qikz ? yes we say it not problem. Not trying to be rude but err....love you Qikz. | ||
L_Master
United States7946 Posts
On April 26 2018 06:28 lemmata wrote: If I may make a modest proposal...why don’t we stop making caster threads. By the end of these threads I always end up in that weird corner of YouTube that I pretend doesn’t have anything to do with my interests. Yea, I tend to agree they don't serve a ton of purpose. If a caster wants feedback, he can always open up his own thread and ask for what needs to be done better. Moreover, it's just a topic that's been beaten to death. I think every single point in the thread has been made several times in prior threads at a minimum. In fairness, this started out as a caster praise thread, which should never be a problem. If you like what someone is doing, I think it's pretty reasonable to make a thread highlighting that. | ||
SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
On April 25 2018 22:12 2Pacalypse- wrote: You're free to do your own research and come up with an alternative theory to explain the empirical data you see. After you do that, make sure to submit your paper for publication so it can be peer-reviewed. I'm sure Dr. Seligman who did that already would be more than happy to give you his opinion on it. Heck, I would also be very interested in reading it. Overall, I feel like this would be useful for the people commenting in this thread to read too, but it's not fair to put even more responsibility on the casters to have to change our outlook so we can do a thing we love to do, without being openly shit on. People are confused why Rapid did the post about BigFan, I think it's because he was making a point that first off, these types of criticisms just feel generic enough you can put anyone's name in and at least someone will agree. Secondly, a lot of the feedback here is just... abrasive. Rapid, myself, and a number of casters... We do this shit because we like to cast. It's fun. Sometimes we get paid, most don't. I'm not saying don't share criticism, but at the same time, we can all work on making our interactions better. "Hey ____, I noticed last night you said ____ ____ _____ but from my experience, these signs ____, ____, ____ lend to normally this _____. Just curious if you wanted to get some insight!" as a PM vs "F$&K THIS CASTER DONT KNOW SH!T???? LOL" (not saying anyone here is directly doing that, but you get my drift). | ||
[DUF]MethodMan
Germany1716 Posts
On April 27 2018 03:33 SchAmToo wrote: tbh, I think caster feedback threads are okay, I'd prefer if we did what SC2 side does which is just one big thread about it. Overall, I feel like this would be useful for the people commenting in this thread to read too, but it's not fair to put even more responsibility on the casters to have to change our outlook so we can do a thing we love to do, without being openly shit on. People are confused why Rapid did the post about BigFan, I think it's because he was making a point that first off, these types of criticisms just feel generic enough you can put anyone's name in and at least someone will agree. Secondly, a lot of the feedback here is just... abrasive. Rapid, myself, and a number of casters... We do this shit because we like to cast. It's fun. Sometimes we get paid, most don't. I'm not saying don't share criticism, but at the same time, we can all work on making our interactions better. "Hey ____, I noticed last night you said ____ ____ _____ but from my experience, these signs ____, ____, ____ lend to normally this _____. Just curious if you wanted to get some insight!" as a PM vs "F$&K THIS CASTER DONT KNOW SH!T???? LOL" (not saying anyone here is directly doing that, but you get my drift). Nice try man, but a typical Twitch chat experience has nothing to do with these forums. You can't just assume everyone has an account here or is even actively participating in this community. I bet there would be countless people giving you exactly what you just asked for, a nice and maybe even polite PM on what - and most of the times rightfully so - they think your are missing, if you and other public personas in this community would not almost all of the time come off as arrogant and unwilling to give into criticism at all. If you want to address what is said during the broadcast on Twitch chat, I believe you either should engage there or bring in place tighter moderation, which I personally believe would be the only honest thing to do, since casters have tried to use their publicity to silence or mock users on these forums before and this thread also shows tendencies towards that. | ||
SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
On April 27 2018 06:59 [DUF]MethodMan wrote: Nice try man, but a typical Twitch chat experience has nothing to do with these forums. You can't just assume everyone has an account here or is even actively participating in this community. I bet there would be countless people giving you exactly what you just asked for, a nice and maybe even polite PM on what - and most of the times rightfully so - they think your are missing, if you and other public personas in this community would not almost all of the time come off as arrogant and unwilling to give into criticism at all. If you want to address what is said during the broadcast on Twitch chat, I believe you either should engage there or bring in place tighter moderation, which I personally believe would be the only honest thing to do, since casters have tried to use their publicity to silence or mock users on these forums before and this thread also shows tendencies towards that. I'm confused where you thought I was talking about just Twitch chat... or that I was even thinking about Twitch chat. It's not just there, it's here, it's everywhere. | ||
L_Master
United States7946 Posts
On April 27 2018 07:11 SchAmToo wrote: I'm confused where you thought I was talking about just Twitch chat... or that I was even thinking about Twitch chat. It's not just there, it's here, it's everywhere. Yea...same. I'm not really sure where this guy was coming from. Pretty random post. I don't get much of an arrogant vibe from many casters either. Something clearly rubs MethodMan the wrong way with most of the casters, but I don't see it. | ||
Waxangel
United States32537 Posts
On April 27 2018 03:33 SchAmToo wrote: tbh, I think caster feedback threads are okay, I'd prefer if we did what SC2 side does which is just one big thread about it. Overall, I feel like this would be useful for the people commenting in this thread to read too, but it's not fair to put even more responsibility on the casters to have to change our outlook so we can do a thing we love to do, without being openly shit on. People are confused why Rapid did the post about BigFan, I think it's because he was making a point that first off, these types of criticisms just feel generic enough you can put anyone's name in and at least someone will agree. Secondly, a lot of the feedback here is just... abrasive. Rapid, myself, and a number of casters... We do this shit because we like to cast. It's fun. Sometimes we get paid, most don't. I'm not saying don't share criticism, but at the same time, we can all work on making our interactions better. "Hey ____, I noticed last night you said ____ ____ _____ but from my experience, these signs ____, ____, ____ lend to normally this _____. Just curious if you wanted to get some insight!" as a PM vs "F$&K THIS CASTER DONT KNOW SH!T???? LOL" (not saying anyone here is directly doing that, but you get my drift). While I think some internet posters can be annoying about their criticism, I also feel that casters are also oversensitive and are reluctant to engage or listen to anyone who isn't obnoxiously deferential. Part of taking in feedback effectively is listening to things you don't want to hear, AT FACE VALUE. You can say "fuck that guy" and still concede they have a valid point. At least from how some casters conduct themselves publicly, you get the feeling they never get to the latter part. I occasionally wonder why this is. Maybe being criticized publicly touches a common nerve that most people don't realize they have in them; that a lot of posters would react the same way to criticism if they had to put themselves out there, simply because that's how the human brain is wired. I also wonder if it's something caster-specific—that if one is of the personality type to think 'I will put my personality out there for public consumption, and I think people will enjoy it', it necessitates an ego that's going to be more easily hurt. tl;dr: I don't think any of the criticism here was given in an objectionable tone (I would have moderated on it otherwise); I think rapid's response to bigfan was silly and not ideal, but only to the extent that having cake for breakfast is "not ideal"; and finally 2pac made a big deal about rapid's silly joke that was worse than the joke itself (at the end of the day, it just amounted to two dudes sticking their tongues out at each other, so I hope no one took it more seriously than that) | ||
SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
On April 27 2018 19:51 Waxangel wrote: While I think some internet posters can be annoying about their criticism, I also feel that casters are also oversensitive and are reluctant to engage or listen to anyone who isn't obnoxiously deferential. Part of taking in feedback effectively is listening to things you don't want to hear, AT FACE VALUE. You can say "fuck that guy" and still concede they have a valid point. At least from how some casters conduct themselves publicly, you get the feeling they never get to the latter part. I occasionally wonder why this is. Maybe being criticized publicly touches a common nerve that most people don't realize they have in them; that a lot of posters would react the same way to criticism if they had to put themselves out there, simply because that's how the human brain is wired. I also wonder if it's something caster-specific—that if one is of the personality type to think 'I will put my personality out there for public consumption, and I think people will enjoy it', it necessitates an ego that's going to be more easily hurt. tl;dr: I don't think any of the criticism here was given in an objectionable tone (I would have moderated on it otherwise); I think rapid's response to bigfan was silly and not ideal, but only to the extent that having cake for breakfast is "not ideal"; and finally 2pac made a big deal about rapid's silly joke that was worse than the joke itself (at the end of the day, it just amounted to two dudes sticking their tongues out at each other, so I hope no one took it more seriously than that) Very true. I try to be as willing as I can to take feedback on my casting in a way that allows me to say "fuck that person" but also "but they also have a point." I think it's like the only thing in my life I handle in a decent manner, hilariously enough. To be fair, I generally don't have much criticism with my casting style that is overtly in my face anymore. I normally get defensive for other casters who are getting feedback they clearly don't enjoy/want. As for why casters can get touchy, I believe it's largely because while playing, or doing most things, it's not directly who you are as the thing people dislike. I find with casting, a lot of feedback is "they're not funny." "I just don't like them" and even the very prominent here, "They just don't know anything" is very hard to separate from personal attacks. Not being funny, not knowing what you should know because they threw themselves into the public spot to show they have that lack of knowledge no one else had the guts to do... It hurts to be open, and get blasted for it. We aim to be the same person on/off camera in a lot of ways, but doing so opens our direct personality to criticism. That begs a caster to ask themselves "why do people like/not-like me" which is a hard inward reflection. Maybe just me? | ||
Radivel-X17
Canada144 Posts
I think the people need to understand how much effort the casters put into not only the casting but everything around it before they throw stones. If you don't like this free service that someone is going to do out of their own time because they enjoy it, then you're always welcome to go someplace else instead of be insulting. After all, it isn't hurting you any. | ||
SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
On April 28 2018 03:51 Radivel-X17 wrote: I feel that people seem to forget that if you're a guy on Twitch casting a game, odds are you've got more to handle than just the game. Schamtoo has to run a tournament or help run it at the same time he's trying to talk about the games. Qikz' plan was to reduce that overhead as much as possible by making easily customizable overlays and make scheduling as easy as possible, which while a great idea, isn't always possible in an on-the-fly live tournament. I think the people need to understand how much effort the casters put into not only the casting but everything around it before they throw stones. If you don't like this free service that someone is going to do out of their own time because they enjoy it, then you're always welcome to go someplace else instead of be insulting. After all, it isn't hurting you any. Tho at the same time it's really easy for casters to get into the "You should be grateful im doing this for you" mode. I have, many times. That's where some others get hurt. I normally just check myself and say "no one has to like my content" | ||
[DUF]MethodMan
Germany1716 Posts
On April 27 2018 07:11 SchAmToo wrote: I'm confused where you thought I was talking about just Twitch chat... or that I was even thinking about Twitch chat. It's not just there, it's here, it's everywhere. "F$&K THIS CASTER DONT KNOW SH!T???? LOL" reads like you meant Twitch chat. But sure, you didn't. Everyone knows you can get away with posting like that on TL. Incontrol experiences it everyday, the poor soul. You just go on and act confused. Have a nice day. On April 27 2018 07:25 L_Master wrote: Yea...same. I'm not really sure where this guy was coming from. Pretty random post. I don't get much of an arrogant vibe from many casters either. Something clearly rubs MethodMan the wrong way with most of the casters, but I don't see it. It's the incessant whining you can see on these forums everytime someone tries to criticize casters. If they don't like it, they should ignore it. If they can't ignore it, maybe they should do something about it. If they can't do that, they might as well do something else, especially if the community is so horrible towards casters?! How can you not get my post or call it random? It's all about how they act on these forums, where it's always whining, attention-seeking and attempts at using their stand in the community to silence criticism. Incontrol is doing this all the time and the only reason I see the lesser known guys do it to a lesser extent than him is exactly that, lesser status. So, while Mr. Entitled himself rages freely and with impunity, this guy comes up with rules for me I'd have to abide by to voice my criticism, because otherwise (reading between the lines, you know) I could make my comments on Twitch chat, where they would be lost forever and also under his authority to censor or just delete it. Yeah, no. So people come here, voice their opinion but they don't get an answer, at least not at first. It apparently takes a quota of fanboys in a thread, reassuring the people in question, before they even give into answering critique. Before that you will get ignored or silenced. My experience on this forum, quite a few others as well apparently. I even got PMs by people siding with me in the thread about the "Larva incident", people who apparently were too intimidated by big boi inc to post their own opinions. How fucking absurd is that? | ||
zerglingling
131 Posts
On April 25 2018 22:12 2Pacalypse- wrote: You're free to do your own research and come up with an alternative theory to explain the empirical data you see. If the data is junk, my study of it would be just as worthless. I'd rather do a study on mob mentality or such, but I'm not really fond of the relevant field to begin with. Snake oil salesmen of today call themselves doctors, and say they're doing research based on data. It doesn't make what they do any closer to science, but it sure does fool you and then some. What makes science is reproducible results, not getting published in some dodgy journal, and you'd be amazed by the crap that those let through nowadays. The rigour of some of those journals can be likened to a fast expand simcity consisting of a single pylon. And if it's social sciences we're talking about, the fast expand doesn't even have a nexus, it's just five probes proxy mining the natural. More than enough has been said about the cult of positivity, so I'll let you look up that exact phrase rather than waste my wrists laying it out, lest I share JD's fate. And if you really are allergic to anything that doesn't begin with "Abstract" and doesn't live under some unreadable URL at some journal's site, this may interest you. http://journal.sjdm.org/15/15923a/jdm15923a.html Or maybe only an example will convince you. Maybe you have to try doing something big before an audience, take enough rotten eggs to your face before you realize what annoying little monkeys people can be, how worthless their opinions are on average, what they're capable of when they smell blood, and how being nice to them is just a green light for more ridiculous demands. I don't think Rapid should lose any sleep over that post, and I hope he doesn't. It was a much better move than getting into an unwinnable, one sided discussion. | ||
AntiHack
Switzerland552 Posts
In the old days I used to enjoy the Korean casting even if I didn't understood a single word (aside "plaguu" tho) because of their energy and screams during wow-moments so I can easily prefer a caster that is a little bit rustier on sc1 mechanics but that gives to sc1 casting the energy that is required to introduce fresh players and fans to the game. To quote Youtube comments: "Love Tastosis, but it seems like they spend a bit more time talking about what they think might happen instead of what's happening. Gotta balance colour commentary with play by play." "yeah sometimes I wish they lived more in the moment" | ||
L_Master
United States7946 Posts
On May 03 2018 21:46 [DUF]MethodMan wrote: It's the incessant whining you can see on these forums everytime someone tries to criticize casters. If they don't like it, they should ignore it. If they can't ignore it, maybe they should do something about it. If they can't do that, they might as well do something else, especially if the community is so horrible towards casters?! How can you not get my post or call it random? It's all about how they act on these forums, where it's always whining, attention-seeking and attempts at using their stand in the community to silence criticism. Incontrol is doing this all the time and the only reason I see the lesser known guys do it to a lesser extent than him is exactly that, lesser status. So, while Mr. Entitled himself rages freely and with impunity, this guy comes up with rules for me I'd have to abide by to voice my criticism, because otherwise (reading between the lines, you know) I could make my comments on Twitch chat, where they would be lost forever and also under his authority to censor or just delete it. Yeah, no. So people come here, voice their opinion but they don't get an answer, at least not at first. It apparently takes a quota of fanboys in a thread, reassuring the people in question, before they even give into answering critique. Before that you will get ignored or silenced. My experience on this forum, quite a few others as well apparently. I even got PMs by people siding with me in the thread about the "Larva incident", people who apparently were too intimidated by big boi inc to post their own opinions. How fucking absurd is that? Inc is bad when it comes to criticism. He strikes me as the major exception to the rule. Rapid had a bit of an over reaction to Qikz on this thread, but has overall been fine, and I recall him openly soliciting feedback. Schamtoo has been fine (and he got wayyy more underserved shit than neccessary with regards to his tours). I openly welcome all feedback. Qikz I've never seen have issues with criticsm. Sayle didn't have problems. Etc. It feels to me like you're letting your experience with Inc effect the perception of all casters. It's possible I've missed some threads or comments over the past year or so, but I just haven't gotten that vibe you speak of except with a select few. | ||
L_Master
United States7946 Posts
On May 04 2018 02:43 zerglingling wrote: Or maybe only an example will convince you. Maybe you have to try doing something big before an audience, take enough rotten eggs to your face before you realize what annoying little monkeys people can be, how worthless their opinions are on average, what they're capable of when they smell blood, and how being nice to them is just a green light for more ridiculous demands. Hmm, I was doing the same thing before in this exact space 4-6 years ago (well, close, casting the biggest foreign BW tournaments of the time). I've have done other things in my life in front of sizable audiences before. I have never had the problems of which you speak. I don't find people to be annoying. Anyone with feedback is appreciated and welcome. Those that are ridiculously negative I try to consider if they have a grain of truth running through their comments or something I can learn from. If I can't and I think they are just being assholes, I ignore them. I don't find that annoying. If anything it's more amusing than it is annoying. It's not hard to find out where the overall pulse is. If the general tone was that of people not wanting me casting, or weren't fond of the content I simply wouldn't cast, so in my view they are capable of nothing if they "smell blood". Perhaps if I was in a situation where my livelihood was depending on it, such a running a small startup and needing good public opinion about my product to generate awareness and sales I would be more concerned. But probably not a lot. At the end of the day if you have a good product, people aren't going to go after you for no reason; and while you might get detractors, if what your product is solid you're also going to have a plenty of people saying "we like what you are doing or making, don't stop, this product could be, or is, amazing". | ||
[DUF]MethodMan
Germany1716 Posts
On May 04 2018 08:31 L_Master wrote: Inc is bad when it comes to criticism. He strikes me as the major exception to the rule. Rapid had a bit of an over reaction to Qikz on this thread, but has overall been fine, and I recall him openly soliciting feedback. Schamtoo has been fine (and he got wayyy more underserved shit than neccessary with regards to his tours). I openly welcome all feedback. Qikz I've never seen have issues with criticsm. Sayle didn't have problems. Etc. It feels to me like you're letting your experience with Inc effect the perception of all casters. It's possible I've missed some threads or comments over the past year or so, but I just haven't gotten that vibe you speak of except with a select few. You are right with your observation and I'll retreat from this thread. | ||
Waxangel
United States32537 Posts
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