On November 19 2014 00:23 Xiphos wrote: In respond to kwizach and Coppermantis' on the 5th dimensional space that the mankind somehow ended up unlocking. This assumes a two things: 1. The people of the 5th dimension doesn't need any food supplies because even though you unlocked another dimension, the other dimensional need to survive is still there. This goes back to the basic science of Law of Conservation of Energy. You still need food to survive. So unless the mankind have fixed the whole dust problems on Earth, they are on another planet. 5th dimensional unlocking doesn't solve hunger problems.
2. So Mathew's character end up going to another planet where the weather isn't as harsh as on Earth. In the film, they mentioned "Cooper Station". Could this station be on Earth depends on whether or not the Earth scientists have solved the weather problem or not. This means that regardless of whether Matthew + Hathaway's character making it not, the mankind will eventually find another mean which makes our emotional investment to be futile.
[spoilers ahead]
The reason mankind is fine when Cooper wakes up in the hospital at the end of the movie is that his daughter managed to unlock the time/space equation thanks to the data Cooper sent up through the tesseract (and into the old watch). Solving the equation granted mankind mastery over the force of gravity, thus allowing it to control ecosystems in such a way as to insure that the hunger problem was solved. Cooper's journey is therefore not useless at all - it is thanks to Cooper that his daughter received the data which allowed her to solve the equation and save mankind.
I think I know what direction you are getting at and I can offer a better explanation using more concrete science.
The film assumes that we are bounded by the 4th dimension in time. That mankind can't control time in 4 dimensions but the 5th dimensional people can.
But however on the gravity portion of the film, it was only stated that the 5D people can only communicate w/ the 4D ones w/ gravity because gravity is the constant b/w the realms, not that 5D people can manipulate it.
And through the 5th dimensional ability to control time, they were somehow able to go back in time to prevent the dust problems by creating an alternative timeline. It relies on the mechanics that w/ enough time, they could've have solved the hunger problem that is they didn't just abandon Earth and transferred people elsewhere. That means that number 2 still stands.
Further details here:
It also assumes that w/ Matthew's character telling her daughter the equation to render everything in 5th dimension. But the question arises is how does Matthew's character know the equation by entering into the black hole. That have never been explained.
The movie could have been more consistent.
In some scene, the characters gives a very grounded explanation on their decisions for the audience to digest. However on other scenes, they didn't nearly explain as much as they should have. If they added Neil Tyson's explanation on the difference b/w 4D and 5D, the movie could have flown a bit better.
Or they added some explanation of how the 4D people was able construct a mechanism to arrive at 5D instead of skimming over it, the movie could've have been more believable.
There is no alternate universe/timeline. Even the video you quoted explains that.
There is a single timeline. The 5th dimension future humans can interact with the timeline from outside, as he explains in the video, and alter things in the past. Those alterations were always there, you just didn't know it. There wasn't an older version where something else happened. There wasn't an alternate universe where Cooper's daughter didn't see a ghost in her room. It doesn't make sense for us because we think we, or anything else, needs to move from the past to the present and are unable to control it, but that's just how it works in the movie. Time doesn't follow that rule.
Imagine if you could only walk forwards in a line, starting at zero. Then someone that lived 1km forwards and could teleport anywhere in the line jumped to the 100m point in the line and said hi. That doesn't mean the line branches into two lines, one where he said hi, one where noone appeared. You just know that during you "walkline" someone appeared ath the 100m point, and with enough movement forward, you end up meeting them again in the 1km point. Not sure if that's a good analogy but it just shows how we can't think of time in the same way as other dimensions. Someone that could see time as another dimension wouldn't need to care about causality and paradoxes like we do.
Nowhere does it even imply that changes to the timeline create a divergent universe where the future is diferent. It's the opposite, because if that were true, the Cooper that alters the past to send the NASA coordinates and the equation. There is no need for the people of the present, without outside interference, to survive to become the people of the future. In the only timeline that exists the people of the present are saved by the people form the future.
^So if the timeline is linear, then this further give evidence that there is no point of sending Cooper + Ann into space since turning into 5D people can't alter the past.
We know that AFTER Cooper returned, the mankind lived in a peaceful setting and Ann's character didn't return but went to her lover's planet.
This means that unless the 12 crews they have sent returned back and brought everybody to a habitable planet, mankind have a figured out a way to combat the hunger problems by themselves thus could still manage by themselves despite of what Cooper + Ann's character's result.
They CAN alter the past. They have done so. Technically they didn't alter it, it was always that way. But in the year 20XX a wormhole was created by the future people to save the people from the past, etc.
The ending implies that humanity moved on to Ann's planet.
It's like those Doctor Who episodes where he gets a message from his past self giving him something he needs, then he goes back in time and sends the message to make sure he gets it. Except there is no possibility of him not doing it and alter the timeline.
It's the same thing as the idea of a deterministic universe. The idea that people have no "free will" and that if you had every bit of information in the universe, you could predict everything that would happen. You can't go back in time and make another decision. You already made that decision. As if you decided everything that would happen in the universe in a single moment, and then followed through with it.
Copper could not have decided not to fly into space, not to enter to black hole or not to tell his daughter the necessary information. The universe dictates that it will happen that way.
She also isn't the 5D people. The 5D people are evolved humans thousands or millions or years in the future, who knows. It isn't explained.
This means that by entering into 5D doesn't actually mean that you can alter the hunger problem at Earth.
So the information that Cooper have sent to his daughter ultimately doesn't help the mankind to survive.
If the 5D took many years to evolve but this is to assume that mankind survive until then because during the movie, it was mentioned that humanity can only survive until the next generation.
They only survived because he sent the information. If he had NOT entered the black hole, in an hypothetical alternate reality, the humanity would have probally perished. They technically didn't alter the past, but they only survived because of the information sent from the future, both by Cooper and the 5D beings.
So Nolan made the audience to just assumed that information helped mankind w/o knowing why or how it does nor how does Matthew's character got the solution to help mankind's hunger problems.
Up to some point, the movie did such an awesome job at explaining the fundamental laws of physics. But afterward, Nolan just said "Fuck it, being in a confined 5D coffin probably means that you know how to solve meteorology problems. The audience won't get to hear any of those cool explanation of the current situation from early on, everything from now on will be quickly skimmed over with some cool shots I thought of."
The information was not supposed to help mankind in the food problems. It helped them get away from the planet. Plan A. It is assumed they do not solve the food problem, they ditch earth and go to the other planet.
She didn't know plan A was sucessful. They split up. She saw Cooper drop into a blackhole. She procceded with plan B. At the same time, Cooper was feeding Earth the information, but they still took ages to get there. His daughter was very old when they were on the way to Ann's planet.
They couldn't send any information towards Ann, the same way they couldn't really communicate with Dr. Mann and co., and I don't know exactly how it worked in regards to time dilatation, she lost a lot of years in that blackhole maneuver, but in the ending Cooper was flying towards Ann's character while she was unnaware that Plan A was a sucess.
Yeah I think we are disagreeing on what actually was the resolution of the movie. + Show Spoiler +
It was a little strange but to me what appeared to happen is Matthew goes into the black hole allowing Ann to make it to her lover's planet. There, Ann has no clue what is happening elsewhere in the universe so she logically proceeds with plan B, growing the human race from the vials she brought. Meanwhile, Matthew falls into the blackhole and enters the tesseract, or what have you, that was created for him by the 5d human beings of the future. In this state Matthew interacts with his daughter and sends her both the coordinates for NASA as well as the information he acquired in the black hole. This allows his daughter to solve the anti-gravity formula thus providing humanity with the ability to manipulate gravity. With this technology plan A can move forward. Matthew regains consciousness on a space station powered by this formula, his daughter is now an old woman since he experienced time dilation on the ocean world. But, she received his message years earlier due to the nature of the tesseract, and in the interim has used the information to build the station and leave earth with humanity. Ann is still young since she went through the same dilation effects as Matthew and it ends with Matthew supposedly leaving to find her. The 5d people are the people that either...
A. Successfully earth and then evolve on Ann's lover's planet B. The population Ann successfully raises on her planet
It is heavily implied that the reality is A and that humanity leaves earth and survives.
In terms of Causality I see it is as a self fulfilling paradox where the 5d humans of the future help Matthew in order to guarantee their own survival which was guaranteed only because they helped Matthew ad. infinitum
- He sent msgs to Jessica Chastain through the clock that Edmund's planet is potentially habitable.
- Ann Hathaway continues on w/ plan B.
- Mankind sends another ship to Edmund's planet and everybody migrates there.
Those are to assume that Matt is really sending in that msg, and that by showing Ann Hathaway and mankind surviving together doesn't mean that they are occurring simultaneously.
To be honest, the visual gem of the movie at the end definitely felt too fast paced at the end.
The movie didn't show how the humanity ended up into 5D. It would have been a visual treat of actually seeing the 5th dimension start to appear right in front of the audience eyes and contains some type of plausible fictional explanation to satisfy the audience.
It definitely feels like Chrisopher Nolan was in a rush to wrap things up. Especially how in the end when Murphy and Cooper meet. While Bustyn gave a good performance of how happy she was upon seeing Cooper, Matthew's facial expression remained much stoic. If that's the emotional payoff we are getting after the initial dramatic acting in the bed scene, this was somewhat anti-climatic.
These are some concepts that I would have appreciated if Nolan explored further. Have 20 or so minutes of exposition of leading the audience through the process to 5D, and 10 or 15 minutes of Cooper having a family reunion because there is no way that a person wouldn't be ecstatic of meeting his offspring after that long as the movie have displayed.
Btw, have the movie tanked or what? There have been minimal activities here in the thread in comparison to the Inception one.
Mankind doesn't migrate to Edmund's world. Ann is clearly alone on Edmund's world when old Murphy dies, and Murphy telling Cooper to go find her implies that the scenes are simultaneous, or at least that she hasn't been rescued by that point.
The point where old Murph dies is at least 70+ years after the point where she solves the equation. That means it's at least ~30+ years after earth was supposed to run out of food, so they probably went somewhere, but it can't be Edmund's world or they would have found Ann themselves.
My personal guess is that they used antigravity to build farms in space, and used those to feed earth while slowly putting the planet's ecosystem back together, but it could be any of a whole bunch of possibilities.
The info he sent through the watch was the "quantum data" TARS collected upon entering the black hole, which scientist-Murphy then used to solve the "gravity equation". It had nothing to do with Edmund's world.
On the time dilation, talking about Cooper's time-dilation doesn't really make any sense because he would have experienced infinite dilation at the event horizon. He's basically just come back out whenever the 5D people dropped him. Ann, on the other hand, lost a lot of years doing the slingshot around the black hole, so it's reasonable that it would be a few months later for her when old Jessica dies.
The one confusing thing for me is the ending scene, we saw Cooper getting ready in the jet and just left...then saw an empty dock and paused. I wonder what's the scene is all about, why not just end with the scene where Cooper flies off instead?
On November 18 2014 10:38 BurningSera wrote: Well i didnt bother to open a thread on this, my review on my blog already up. Long story short, this is defo not the best work from Nolan(s) but it has to be the most emotional work from him/them.
I am a big fan of chris so i watched it on the 2nd day when it came out.
Gravity maybe was spectacular and breathtaking; Interstellar is pure.... intensity and simply magnificent.
The important thing about this movie is that you dont need any astrophysics prior watching it, nolan(s) spent 3 seconds explaining wormhole so their story telling ability is serious some top class shit. It is about family love and i cried for so long for different scenes.
It is a very exhausting when i walked from the cinema lol.
All in all, if you need a line to decide whether you should watch it or not and you don't mind some mild spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
It is technically a remake of Armageddon, funnily enough that was from michael bay rofl
.
Pretty pointless to compare to gravity as well because look back of it gravity was all about that visuals really. and chris said that he prevented himself to watch gravity since he was working on this project (that he would watch after he finished this).
You cried watching this?
I honestly don't get why Nolan even spends any time on this human interest stuff. It's not his strong suit.
I saw this with a girl and she cried at like three different points in the movie.
I found the film mildly touching. But I did really enjoy it.
On November 19 2014 06:42 SKC wrote: She didn't know plan A was sucessful. They split up. She saw Cooper drop into a blackhole. She procceded with plan B. At the same time, Cooper was feeding Earth the information, but they still took ages to get there. His daughter was very old when they were on the way to Ann's planet.
They couldn't send any information towards Ann, the same way they couldn't really communicate with Dr. Mann and co., and I don't know exactly how it worked in regards to time dilatation, she lost a lot of years in that blackhole maneuver, but in the ending Cooper was flying towards Ann's character while she was unnaware that Plan A was a sucess.
I am not sure if that really happened like what you said, caused' we are not explicitly told in the movie about that.
I am more inclined to believe to that they already sent some more people to help out Anne (hence setting up the camp) due to they figured out how to do space travelling efficiently now solving the formula and that murph knew that Anne is still 'single' so she told cooper to go get her (so cheesey, but ya). The bigger population of people are now travelling to Anne's planet in that space station.
The most intriguing part of the whole movie is that:
Assuming the time point when Cooper entered 5th dimension was the only and only one (from there we can see that Cooper was looking at so many different time points of Murph's life in the Tesseract), which space/time point exactly were we watching for the first 1.5hour of the film?
Technically Nolan can make up 10 versions of the first 1.5hour of the film and release 10 different versions of Interstellar rofl.
On November 18 2014 10:38 BurningSera wrote: Well i didnt bother to open a thread on this, my review on my blog already up. Long story short, this is defo not the best work from Nolan(s) but it has to be the most emotional work from him/them.
I am a big fan of chris so i watched it on the 2nd day when it came out.
Gravity maybe was spectacular and breathtaking; Interstellar is pure.... intensity and simply magnificent.
The important thing about this movie is that you dont need any astrophysics prior watching it, nolan(s) spent 3 seconds explaining wormhole so their story telling ability is serious some top class shit. It is about family love and i cried for so long for different scenes.
It is a very exhausting when i walked from the cinema lol.
All in all, if you need a line to decide whether you should watch it or not and you don't mind some mild spoiler: + Show Spoiler +
It is technically a remake of Armageddon, funnily enough that was from michael bay rofl
.
Pretty pointless to compare to gravity as well because look back of it gravity was all about that visuals really. and chris said that he prevented himself to watch gravity since he was working on this project (that he would watch after he finished this).
You cried watching this?
I honestly don't get why Nolan even spends any time on this human interest stuff. It's not his strong suit.
I saw this with a girl and she cried at like three different points in the movie.
I found the film mildly touching. But I did really enjoy it.
Distance/separation+love/family hit me so hard in all media anyway lol. Only when they were delivered in a very high quality though.
On November 19 2014 06:42 SKC wrote: She didn't know plan A was sucessful. They split up. She saw Cooper drop into a blackhole. She procceded with plan B. At the same time, Cooper was feeding Earth the information, but they still took ages to get there. His daughter was very old when they were on the way to Ann's planet.
They couldn't send any information towards Ann, the same way they couldn't really communicate with Dr. Mann and co., and I don't know exactly how it worked in regards to time dilatation, she lost a lot of years in that blackhole maneuver, but in the ending Cooper was flying towards Ann's character while she was unnaware that Plan A was a sucess.
I am not sure if that really happened like what you said, caused' we are not explicitly told in the movie about that.
I am more inclined to believe to that they already sent some more people to help out Anne (hence setting up the camp) due to they figured out how to do space travelling efficiently now solving the formula and that murph knew that Anne is still 'single' so she told cooper to go get her (so cheesey, but ya). The bigger population of people are now travelling to Anne's planet in that space station.
The most intriguing part of the whole movie is that:
Assuming the time point when Cooper entered 5th dimension was the only and only one (from there we can see that Cooper was looking at so many different time points of Murph's life in the Tesseract), which space/time point exactly were we watching for the first 1.5hour of the film?
Technically Nolan can make up 10 versions of the first 1.5hour of the film and release 10 different versions of Interstellar rofl.
They "lost" 70 years in the wormhole manuever and 20 years in the water planet. The timeline fits a scenario where Amelia had not arriver at the planet for long, if we consider his daughter is around 100 when she dies. I felt the scene of Amelia setting up camp was the Plan B procedure, and it wasn't a flashback, it happened while Cooper was at the station, or at least fairly close to that point in time. It also makes for a better romantic storyline, the hero she thought was dead somehow arrives soon after her to help set up the colony, not decades later in an established colony to meet a middle aged or older woman.
In my mind Cooper Station is the first vessel towards the new planet and Cooper takes the ship to arrive there a bit earlier than the rest, while Amelia is alone either still setting things up or in stasis. A lot of it is left quite open, and the fact Cooper's daughter surviving some extra time in an stasis chamber to prolong her lifespan makes it hard to nail down a timeframe, but the main point of the post was still that Amelia went with Plan B because she didn't know Plan A succeded, not because it failed.