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It all happened in the blink of an eye, so losing concentration for even that long is fatal. It wasn't meant to show how weak Vegeta was; he was the only one who could actually do anything at all to Cell. He simply gave Gohan an opening to turn a wave blast he was losing into a quick victory.
Goku says, "Now's your chance" - as in, that's the opportunity he actually has to win it. What was the point of the entire sequence of characters trying to throw Cell off balance if Gohan was strong enough as-is? It was pretty clear he was not, that he was losing, and that it was a desperate last-ditch effort that succeeded by the power of the only remaining character who barely managed not to become obsolete by power creep.
The bolded part contradicts your earlier arguments about the importance of raw strength in Dragonball.
No it doesn't. Power matters in that insufficient power makes you useless, but it's not just a clear "more powerful = you win" game of power levels.
So I started to rewatch Dragon Ball Z Kai cause I was in a DBZ mood... realised they didn't finish translating all the episodes in English! Also, did they ever tell why they never did a Dragon Ball Kai?
The last season of Kai came out rather late, so the dub also started to have conflicts with Super, an obviously more pressing project. But it's in progress, I've heard, under the name DBZ Kai: The Final Chapters.
Dragon Ball doesn't need a remake. It's fine as is. Also I think it had a smaller viewerbase.
In terms of Gohan vs Cell, my own take: Before Cell died the first time, Gohan was clearly superior, power, technique etc... After he came back, had Gohan not been injured due to rescuing Vegeta, he likely would've been on par with Cell. In the final confrontation, even though they seemed even, Gohan was giving it all he had and Cell was pushing him back. Vegeta caused that little distraction, at which point with Goku's help, Gohan was able to push out some more power and in that instance, overwhelmed Cell.
On April 22 2017 04:38 LegalLord wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBKTdPxoiYo It all happened in the blink of an eye, so losing concentration for even that long is fatal. It wasn't meant to show how weak Vegeta was; he was the only one who could actually do anything at all to Cell. He simply gave Gohan an opening to turn a wave blast he was losing into a quick victory.
Goku says, "Now's your chance" - as in, that's the opportunity he actually has to win it. What was the point of the entire sequence of characters trying to throw Cell off balance if Gohan was strong enough as-is? It was pretty clear he was not, that he was losing, and that it was a desperate last-ditch effort that succeeded by the power of the only remaining character who barely managed not to become obsolete by power creep.
The bolded part contradicts your earlier arguments about the importance of raw strength in Dragonball.
No it doesn't. Power matters in that insufficient power makes you useless, but it's not just a clear "more powerful = you win" game of power levels.
Your argument is that other people in this thread overstate the importance of raw strength. But there, in that sentence, you admitted that there a minimum acceptable level of power that characters must have before strategy, tactics and all that jazz can come into play.
Furthermore, you admitted that during the end of the Cell saga, only people at Vegeta's level or above are at that minimum threshold of power since Vegeta was barely not obsolete by power creep. Well, the Buu saga and the early episodes of Dragon Ball Super later, after even more power creep, why would the people who were behind Vegeta during the Cell saga not be even more obsolete? Non-Saiyans did not exactly get power ups in the interim.
On April 22 2017 04:38 LegalLord wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBKTdPxoiYo It all happened in the blink of an eye, so losing concentration for even that long is fatal. It wasn't meant to show how weak Vegeta was; he was the only one who could actually do anything at all to Cell. He simply gave Gohan an opening to turn a wave blast he was losing into a quick victory.
Goku says, "Now's your chance" - as in, that's the opportunity he actually has to win it. What was the point of the entire sequence of characters trying to throw Cell off balance if Gohan was strong enough as-is? It was pretty clear he was not, that he was losing, and that it was a desperate last-ditch effort that succeeded by the power of the only remaining character who barely managed not to become obsolete by power creep.
The bolded part contradicts your earlier arguments about the importance of raw strength in Dragonball.
No it doesn't. Power matters in that insufficient power makes you useless, but it's not just a clear "more powerful = you win" game of power levels.
Your argument is that other people in this thread overstate the importance of raw strength. But there, in that sentence, you admitted that there a minimum acceptable level of power that characters must have before strategy, tactics and all that jazz can come into play.
Furthermore, you admitted that during the end of the Cell saga, only people at Vegeta's level or above are at that minimum threshold of power since Vegeta was barely not obsolete by power creep. Well, the Buu saga and the early episodes of Dragon Ball Super later, after even more power creep, why would the people who were behind Vegeta during the Cell saga not be even more obsolete? Non-Saiyans did not exactly get power ups in the interim.
non-sayians, if anything got weaker. They were training hardcore mode during frieza and cell saga. Come buu aside from vegeta and goku no one is doing any training (until the tourny, and then only for a brief moment) they all are just smashed by buu later on.
Tien admitted at one point that despite all his training he simply could no longer remain within the class of warriors like Goku because being a saiyan is OP.
@andrew: Yes, power is important and more power makes you stronger. Duh. My argument was with the use of the "multipliers" and "power level" depictions as a very definitive measure of who beats whom - which was shown quite often to be useful but insufficient - which is very closely tied to the concept of raw strength.
Like transforming SSJX doesn't simply make you Y times stronger; there's more to it than that. And stronger characters lose to weaker ones based on strategy or scorched earth tactics (e.g. blow everything up) plenty often within Z/S. Power matters but it's clearly not the end-all be-all unless you just want to pretend everything can be boiled down to one number like all the characters in-universe who assumed power levels are a perfect indicator of everything.
Personally, I went back and watched the dubs. Man, it's even worse than I remember. The whole Goku losing over and over and constantly coming back to fight. I mean, sure, everyone loves a fighter but they have to make the fight look over every single time? Whatever, we're past that now.
Hands down the worst episode of the series so far. Android 17's character is extremely scattered. I like how they made the remote the alien had be identical to the one Gero used on 17/18. Got a "heh" out of that. But all that did was make me realize he should have been able to snatch it before the guy could even blink. Sigh.
Post-gravity training Goku was able to strike Rekoom in the stomach numerous times without even being seen by Vegeta. Let's be incredibly conservative here by saying Goku is only twice as fast as he was after gravity training. This dumbass poaching dip shit was never a risk. He was never able to explode too early or something. Android 17 should have been able to snatch that remote, incinerate it, then snap the poacher's neck in less than half a second.
I'm so tired of all these ridiculous situations that make no sense.
What pissed me off the most about this two-episode part was how they trolled us with A17's wife and kids. They know we want to know what they look like and teased us but gave us nothing. What the fuck?
On April 24 2017 05:14 LegalLord wrote: What pissed me off the most about this two-episode part was how they trolled us with A17's wife and kids. They know we want to know what they look like and teased us but gave us nothing. What the fuck?
I guess I'm alone in giving zero shits about his family. His side story has been so unfathomably bad that I just don't care. I almost want him to just die in the beginning of the tournament as punishment for his terrible sub-arc.
On April 24 2017 05:14 LegalLord wrote: What pissed me off the most about this two-episode part was how they trolled us with A17's wife and kids. They know we want to know what they look like and teased us but gave us nothing. What the fuck?
I guess I'm alone in giving zero shits about his family. His side story has been so unfathomably bad that I just don't care. I almost want him to just die in the beginning of the tournament as punishment for his terrible sub-arc.
haha well, I do care too. I was hoping we'll see pics or something but like you guys, I'm a bit disillusioned by how they are playing out this 17 mini-arc. The whole he's on par with SSB is complete bullshit and the same with that remote as mentioned previously...
Also, I wanted to give a short rant since magic balls. I know a fair few people said they liked the "abuse of dragonballs" subplot of GT that was its final season. Well in and of itself it isn't too bad, but in the context it was just really fucking bad. There was a definite attempt in GT to minimize use of the dragonballs - but we as savvy long-term DB people don't buy any of it because we know that if anyone dies they can just return using the magical plot device. The attempt to not use it looked really fucking artificial in the actual context of how GT started and finished.
On April 24 2017 06:02 LegalLord wrote: Also, I wanted to give a short rant since magic balls. I know a fair few people said they liked the "abuse of dragonballs" subplot of GT that was its final season. Well in and of itself it isn't too bad, but in the context it was just really fucking bad. There was a definite attempt in GT to minimize use of the dragonballs - but we as savvy long-term DB people don't buy any of it because we know that if anyone dies they can just return using the magical plot device. The attempt to not use it looked really fucking artificial in the actual context of how GT started and finished.
On April 24 2017 05:38 LegalLord wrote: Doesn't matter if he dies though, cuz magic orbs of magic.
Fine. Zeno says "fuck this dude's garb haircut" and then erases him.
Zeno has no sense of scale and his only power is "destroy EVERYTHING" as a result.
I take the perspective of "Don't care, because it made the show better for it". Similar to what DBS is now struggling with, sometimes you gotta just slit the Achilles tendon of some dynamic.
The idea of "Dragon balls were well intended, and a crucial part of the show, but it went overboard and now the final struggle for survival is against the repercussions of misusing the dragon balls" was a very, very satisfying ending to the show. I was totally on board. I agree that the details were eh, but being able to remove the dragon balls from common use going forward was a net positive.
Heh, let me put it this way. Choose one: A bad guy finally wishes for immortality, or dragon balls become a bad guy? Obvious answer. Zeno...sigh.