Gaming Addiction (Unethical Game Design) - Page 4
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blarkh
Austria72 Posts
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Nizaris
Belgium2230 Posts
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diehilde
Germany1596 Posts
On December 19 2011 20:48 Greentellon wrote: So you can't handle your own life and so games have to be changed? Take some responsibility of your own life. That, or seek help. If help for this kind of addiction isn't provided, it should be provided. I'm only worried of underaged kids time spending, but it's up to their parents to keep the kids from gaming from 1am to 7am. Where did I say games have to be changed? I was just quoting you, saying that merely stating how things are for oneself doesnt contribute to a discussion and wishing there was a game that could addict you is a very insensitive and moronic thing to say. Especially when coupled with random bolding of words. | ||
Keyboard Warrior
United States1178 Posts
And once you start rolling, hours and hours go by in the blink of the eye. | ||
Timmsh
Netherlands201 Posts
On December 19 2011 21:00 blarkh wrote: It's funny how people in this conversation don't seem to understand the difference between ethics and the law. Every time somone says what Blizzard did in WoW (or what companies do in MMOs in general) is unethical, or isn't right, there's someone who believes they want them put in jail. But loads of unethical stuff aren't in fact illegal. I think cheating your wife is unethical too, but that doesn't mean it should be forbidden by law. Just like that, while there shouldn't be a law against MMOs that work like WoW, maybe developers should take a bit of responsibility when creating games, so they might leave you with some sense of achievement. They should. That doesn't mean they should be forced to. I think this is another discussion, but the idea of the law is to make sure unethical stuff does not happen. And cheating your wife is for that reason in a lot of countries not legal. (and can cost you a lot of money also in the US I believe, specially when ur married :-)) The problem with ethics is that it's a lot of the time not clear what is unethical and what isn't. In the example you give for cheating your wife for instance. It would be also unethical to take away someone's freedom to force someone not to cheat his wife, thats why in a lot of countries it is not illegal to cheat your wife. But in a lot of circumstances it is very clear a case is unethical, and thats why it's always illegal. | ||
anycolourfloyd
Australia524 Posts
but in terms of an actual fullblown dependence i'd think that the people who experience this do have an underlying condition to some extent. people can develop dependencies to anything. | ||
Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
I understand that it's very hard for people to keep themselves in line when they have increased risk of being addicted. But this 'unethical' nonsense (in the video) just gives a 'scientific' justification for a certain moral point of view. It is far too easy to point the finger at someone else in this case. Personally, i think most of the people appearing on the video are behaving 'unethical', because they indoctrinating young people with quasi-scientific moral code, much like kent hovind, for anyone who knows him. | ||
Deleted User 124618
1142 Posts
On December 19 2011 21:08 diehilde wrote: Where did I say games have to be changed? I was just quoting you, saying that merely stating how things are for oneself doesnt contribute to a discussion and wishing there was a game that could addict you is a very insensitive and moronic thing to say. Especially when coupled with random bolding of words. Insensitive? Perhaps it's stupid of me to wish getting addicted, but if someone gets ashamed/hurt because someone says something related to an activity they obviously love to do (because they are addicted), then it's just the first step on the road to recovery. You already know it's a problem. I don't mind being insensitive, as long as I'm not rude. | ||
Nevermind86
Somalia429 Posts
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Humanfails
224 Posts
On December 19 2011 16:24 RANDOMCL wrote: People should have the right to do what they want to themselves as long as it doesn't bring direct harm to others. Protecting people from themselves will never work. Banning drug usage, forcing restaurants to serve healthier food, and restricting game design because some people get addicted... it is a never-ending cycle that will never work. People will do what they want to themselves. The government should not be responsible for protecting me from myself. They should protect me other from others. If I wanted to shoot meth that I make in my bedroom all day, I should be allowed to. On December 19 2011 16:28 sirachman wrote: There are addictive personalities which are prone to be addicted to things. However gaming itself is hardly any more addictive than Lincoln Logs. Unfortunately, truly understanding addiction, understanding the process of neuron reinforcement and pathways, understanding the process of serotonin and the role it has in helping to establish and addiction, and thus being able to understand computer use addiction as an actual existing phenomenon takes some preliminary study of it at least. In the olden days before "entertaining ourselves to death" (google it), people learned more, especially the aristocracy. That's how people make informed decisions before committing to any discussion that they have less understanding of than peers. computer addiction, and video game addiction specifically, is real. games that don't have any substance and are designed to lead you on forever are typically at the forefront of addicted gamer's lists. The industry is fully aware these people exist, and they create games that are specifically designed at those personalities. Would World Of Warcraft be so successful if there weren't droves of computer addicted people playing 24/7, always looking for that next score in game? SInce it is a subscription based game, it thrives on people who will never ever quit. That doesn't mean it's explicitly designed to be addictive, but it has many properties of an addictive game. I'm not saying there's some evil mastermind plan, I'm saying that businesses are doing what makes them money, much in the same way drug smugglers from Mexico do what they do to make profits off of other people. And about doing meth.If you have the self made money to buy it, to use it, and to pay for all the rehab costs afterward so you can be a productive member of society again, go for it. If you don't, don't. You see, if you shoot up or smoke all day and cause other people to pay your way in life as a burden, that becomes causing others inconvenience through an addiction. Not to say addiction is wrong, but to willfully go into it and believe it's not a problem for others if you do it is also wrong. You might be interested in reading H.G. Wells' "A Modern Utopia". Basically he posits that if anyone works enough to pay their way though society and be completely self supporting, they can just make the minimum amount required to stay alive and do whatever they want and then not work, and just go nuts with travel or other excursions that do not profit the world. As long as you pay your way... On the other hand if some people want to become millionaires, they are free to pursue that too. And society in this utopia accepts all of these lifestyles. Back to the company issue. Them creating games that targets a lifestyle which is computer addiction is wrong, and they know that they create these games, and they hide behind the logic that these people "are making their own choice" which, if you know about addiction, in many ways they aren't making their own choice.You know the saying, you have to hit rock bottom before you can overcome it. To willfully take part in anyone's self destruction is morally wrong, if you believe in morals at all. They are also removed like the nazis were from their job. There's a thing which happens, most notable with the nazis, where the further removed decision makers are from people who get effected, the less they view their actions as inhumane or detrimental and wrong to real living people. There's been plenty of experiements and case studies done on these kinds of things which shows that its a human phenomenon not limited to sociopaths. The further you are from the person in pain, the less you care, and the more willing you are to hurt them a little or a lot, especially on orders from superiors, for some form of gain for yourself or your group. Morality apparently has a limiting radius based on distance. But honestly, people know what they're doing, especially large corporations that make games. If they didn't, they would go broke from making no money. | ||
Vallros
Denmark64 Posts
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couches
618 Posts
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Myles
United States5162 Posts
On December 19 2011 21:41 Humanfails wrote: Unfortunately, truly understanding addiction, understanding the process of neuron reinforcement and pathways, understanding the process of serotonin and the role it has in helping to establish and addiction, and thus being able to understand computer use addiction as an actual existing phenomenon takes some preliminary study of it at least. In the olden days before "entertaining ourselves to death" (google it), people learned more, especially the aristocracy. That's how people make informed decisions before committing to any discussion that they have less understanding of than peers. computer addiction, and video game addiction specifically, is real. games that don't have any substance and are designed to lead you on forever are typically at the forefront of addicted gamer's lists. The industry is fully aware these people exist, and they create games that are specifically designed at those personalities. Would World Of Warcraft be so successful if there weren't droves of computer addicted people playing 24/7, always looking for that next score in game? SInce it is a subscription based game, it thrives on people who will never ever quit. That doesn't mean it's explicitly designed to be addictive, but it has many properties of an addictive game. I'm not saying there's some evil mastermind plan, I'm saying that businesses are doing what makes them money, much in the same way drug smugglers from Mexico do what they do to make profits off of other people. And about doing meth.If you have the self made money to buy it, to use it, and to pay for all the rehab costs afterward so you can be a productive member of society again, go for it. If you don't, don't. You see, if you shoot up or smoke all day and cause other people to pay your way in life as a burden, that becomes causing others inconvenience through an addiction. Not to say addiction is wrong, but to willfully go into it and believe it's not a problem for others if you do it is also wrong. You might be interested in reading H.G. Wells' "A Modern Utopia". Basically he posits that if anyone works enough to pay their way though society and be completely self supporting, they can just make the minimum amount required to stay alive and do whatever they want and then not work, and just go nuts with travel or other excursions that do not profit the world. As long as you pay your way... On the other hand if some people want to become millionaires, they are free to pursue that too. And society in this utopia accepts all of these lifestyles. Back to the company issue. Them creating games that targets a lifestyle which is computer addiction is wrong, and they know that they create these games, and they hide behind the logic that these people "are making their own choice" which, if you know about addiction, in many ways they aren't making their own choice.You know the saying, you have to hit rock bottom before you can overcome it. To willfully take part in anyone's self destruction is morally wrong, if you believe in morals at all. They are also removed like the nazis were from their job. There's a thing which happens, most notable with the nazis, where the further removed decision makers are from people who get effected, the less they view their actions as inhumane or detrimental and wrong to real living people. There's been plenty of experiements and case studies done on these kinds of things which shows that its a human phenomenon not limited to sociopaths. The further you are from the person in pain, the less you care, and the more willing you are to hurt them a little or a lot, especially on orders from superiors, for some form of gain for yourself or your group. Morality apparently has a limiting radius based on distance. But honestly, people know what they're doing, especially large corporations that make games. If they didn't, they would go broke from making no money. The fact that video game addiction effects an extremely small minority of people, imo, supports the opinion that the person with the addiction is the main cause rather then the game itself. It's the same thing with gambling addiction or food addiction. | ||
FADCoUltra
Canada73 Posts
On December 19 2011 16:36 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: mcdonalds? o.o didn't know what kind of stuff? like chemicals? also i said slightly twisted cus ppl are allowed to sell alcohol and drugs which addict u There is nothing in McD's food that make you addicted to it. It's just urban legend. It's no mystery that people like greecy and salty food. The additives banned form McD's food are growth horomones. Edit: I guess I should put down something on topic as well: MMO are designed to give you easy rewards in the beginning and they become progressively hard to get. For some peopel it is give them big satisfaction to get those achievement. Same thing with the achievement designs in other games, SC2 is not innocent from it either. I dont' think it's unethical for developers to create innovative way to prolong a game's enjoyable life span. Even for subscription based MMOs, yes, they have direct monatory insentive to keep you playing as long as possible, but they have to do it in a way that is also enjoyable for you. This is definitly different from narcotics, which addictions are chemically induced. Gaming addiction is pychologically induced. On some level, yes you can say they work in similar ways, they produce desirable state and your brain wants more of it. Of course narcotics are much more potent, and create much worse consequenses. It all comes down to what those consequenses are. If you're ignoring your RL responsibilties due to gaming, then it's problem. Same with any other forms of addiction (alchohol, gambling...) It right way to deal with is definitely education, not banning. I remember when I was a kid in China, there was a public issue that a lot of kds are "addicted" to arcades. And bullies start fights in arcades and take money from other kids. And what was the city's solution? Banning arcades for all under 18. Looking back this is so silly. Band-aid solution ftw. Anyways, I digress. Compnaies will use any trick in their sleeves to make money. Using addictive drugs is definitely considered un-ethical, but rewards/achievements based game play? I dont' beleive so, but it is important for gamers to recognize the system and not be manipulated. | ||
Tear388
United States59 Posts
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MHT
Sweden1026 Posts
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gruff
Sweden2276 Posts
On December 20 2011 00:15 FADCoUltra wrote: There is nothing in McD's food that make you addicted to it. It's just urban legend. It's no mystery that people like greecy and salty food. There is nothing in *insert game of choice* that make you addicted to it. It's just urban legend. It's no mystery that people like games using well known behavioral mechanisms to manipulate gamers compulsions for playing. | ||
Timmsh
Netherlands201 Posts
On December 20 2011 00:37 gruff wrote: There is nothing in *insert game of choice* that make you addicted to it. It's just urban legend. It's no mystery that people like games using well known behavioral mechanisms to manipulate gamers compulsions for playing. You heavily contradict yourself here, first you say games have nothing which makes you addicted to it. Then you say it's no mystery... compulsion for playing (read, makes you addictive to it) I'm also aware that it's no mystery, but alot of people don't. And I think it should be on the box, just like with gambling everybody 'knows' it's addictive, but i believe this is not the case for gaming. So people can make a conscious decision to play a game, and to be vulnerable to these kind of addiction. | ||
FADCoUltra
Canada73 Posts
On December 20 2011 00:37 gruff wrote: There is nothing in *insert game of choice* that make you addicted to it. It's just urban legend. It's no mystery that people like games using well known behavioral mechanisms to manipulate gamers compulsions for playing. You comparison is flawed. Peopel wasn't saying that the greecy salty food is what addictive, people were saying there are other "narcotic" chemicals in the food that makes you addicted to McDs. Like I said, it's about recognition. People who eat McD's should know that they like it because they like greecy salty foods, not because big corporation is making them addicted to their food. Same with gaming, people who can't pull away from their games need to recognize the mechanisms that's keeping them in game. | ||
Timmsh
Netherlands201 Posts
On December 20 2011 00:47 FADCoUltra wrote: You comparison is flawed. Peopel wasn't saying that the greecy salty food is what addictive, people were saying there are other "narcotic" chemicals in the food that makes you addicted to McDs. Like I said, it's about recognition. People who eat McD's should know that they like it because they like greecy salty foods, not because big corporation is making them addicted to their food. Same with gaming, people who can't pull away from their games need to recognize the mechanisms that's keeping them in game. Totally agree with this | ||
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