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Great write-up!
If we can think up some measures for eliminating the correlation of organized crime and legalized prostitution then I don't see any downside.
My thoughts on increased HIV/STI occurence rates in individuals participating in prostitution, is that it's either 1) not causative, but rather some correlation exists with those who currently engage in it (perhaps do to its illegality) or 2) it's more complicated than people suspect.
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Northern Ireland20946 Posts
On the issue at hand, with most things I feel legalisation, even of things you may not partake in our agree with is generally preferable to keeping it illegal. As with drugs, many of the negative sides of prostitution come forth more from the crime that springs up to meet a demand for the service. The central act and whether it is acceptable or not is immaterial to me when there is such a black market already operating. You have to be pragmatic and accept that prostitution isn't disappearing, they don't call it the oldest profession for nothing.
@Voltaire, always enjoy your posts even the ones I disagree with, nice to see your post regarding virginity. People boasting about getting laid is so laughable, it's hardly an exclusive club. Being an interesting and thought-provoking poster on here, and indeed doubtlessly in your day-to-day life is far more worthy of note.
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Prostitution has a negative overall effect on society. Even if it were legal, I would like to live in a world where people don't have to sell the intimate nature of their bodies to make a living.
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On September 29 2012 15:29 Friedrich Nietzsche wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 15:22 either I or wrote:On September 29 2012 15:16 Friedrich Nietzsche wrote:On September 29 2012 15:05 either I or wrote:On September 29 2012 14:57 Friedrich Nietzsche wrote:On September 29 2012 14:55 either I or wrote:On September 29 2012 14:49 Friedrich Nietzsche wrote:On September 29 2012 14:45 either I or wrote:On September 29 2012 14:38 Friedrich Nietzsche wrote:On September 29 2012 14:13 either I or wrote: I like the effort that went to creating this thread. The OP provided good take off points for discussion. I am however disappointed that even at 7 pages now, we never had a true enlightening, violent or not, discussion on the matter.
All I'm reading are motherhood statements on freedom of choice, oldest profession, consensus between adults, and other general statements that do not really encourage discovery and creation of information on the issue. For this thread to really progress, we need to focus on the issues and have a comprehensive discussion on it, simultaneously or one at a time. Otherwise, everyone will just say "Legalize because freedom" or "Illegal because morality" and nothing more.
I want to focus the discussion on a key issue - prostitution as a better career option. The myth goes that it is better be a prostitute and make some money than to choose to work at a minimum wage job. The truth to this matter is instantly revealed once you consider the dynamics of its choice as a career option. Who become prostitutes? The poor and the underprivileged. Right away, there already are immediate preconditions which discriminate against the poor, thereby making the claim as a career option questionable. I support the Swedish model, prostitution, legal or illegal, is an institutionalized sexual oppression or as a human rights violation. Whether legal or not, the decision to enter prostitution is not a product of free choice or a selection among the options, but is possible only because of a lack of alternative survival options. Women who enter prostitution usually do not choose whether they want to be doctors, lawyers, astronauts, teacher, or prostitutes. This "choice" is therefore nothing more that a survival strategy, borne out of a lack of any real advantageous set of options. I hope you are in the mood for some philosophical exploration. Let us examine the "choice" assumption you focused on here. If we are only to abstractify this as an issue of legitimate choice, still, there is always that choice of non action. What I am trying to emphasize here is that if we evaluate the validity of this "choice" option, then it proves impoverished in the face of the actual philosophical contengencies of the choices at hand. Which brings us to the conclusion that, no matter its limitations, deciding to become a prostitute is still a choice, among many, that women make. You mean the choice between death and not death? Oh dear Kierkegaard! That was smart. In it's extreme form, yes. Qualified further, as a consequence of the choice of being a prostitute or not. I'll give you the first word. Ok. Let's make sure we are doing this right. Do we agree on the causative implications of the choice or non-choice? Or do we discuss it in the limited context of choice per se? Suspended, for now. Just discuss your points. First, I disagree. There has to be a minimum level of survivability. This has to be met first or the discussion on "choice" is ideal and impractical. I maintain that this choice is directly a product of this basic need. I deny, only in this instance, with reservations on statistics and evidence that may later prove otherwise, that we have to go as far as arguing for the choice of non-action, or not working at all and just die, instead of working as a prostitute. This is a moral route, one we should not take. This choice, as SK says, is a deception. And much more the non-choice course. Nowhere in history has this proven true. One has to always meet the minimum level of survival. This is philosophically naive. Choices are always burdened with consequences, and it is irrelevant to weigh one over the other in terms of this if the only problem is the value of choice. They are all the same. The respective consequences are merely trivial and are secondary. You argue that no choice actually exists yet even in its own terms, this choice does not have to be made at all. So the only issue is, you make it or not. I concede the philosophical nature of choice. Good point. But there are practical consequences to be met here, one that greatly influences the value of the choices to make. Still, it is equally naive to assume non-action is a choice, practically speaking. The philosophical is practical. It was you who first brought up the aspect of choice, I merely extended it. What the fuck are you two even talking about? I tried to follow and reread it. At some point I though I get it, but then I'm confused again. Say you choose to be a prostitute because you have no other choice, and then you argue that this choice does not exist? What?
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United States24351 Posts
On September 30 2012 11:01 Bigtony wrote: I would like to live in a world where people don't have to sell the intimate nature of their bodies to make a living. I think most people agree with you on this, although I don't think whether it's legal or illegal has any bearing. Making it illegal doesn't make people suddenly not need income, as I'm sure you know.
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Excellent post OP.
One of the issues i felt hasn't been brought up is that we assume that prostitutes will have sex with anyone. I'm not entirely sure this is the case, whats to say that prostitutes will only provide their services to attractive costumers? Would it be fair to discriminate against less attractive people who want to purchase a service? Would the monetary exchange be the same for customers of different races and ethnic groups? If it isn't are we promoting racism or something? Overall i think prostitution could be a viable profession but what should it be based around? I'm interested to hear other peoples opinions!
again great OP
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On September 30 2012 12:00 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 11:01 Bigtony wrote: I would like to live in a world where people don't have to sell the intimate nature of their bodies to make a living. I think most people agree with you on this, although I don't think whether it's legal or illegal as any bearing. Making it illegal doesn't make people suddenly not need income, as I'm sure you know.
Same thing with drug dealers, I doubt drug dealers come into the profession out of love for the job. They need to make money to bay bills like everyone else but they turned to illegal activities instead because they are easier. Magically making it legal isn't going to stop them from doing it, they will just have an easier time not worrying about being arrested.
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I actually had no idea about prostitution but.. 630 clients in less than 12weeks.. absolutely disgusting. .____.
My dad keeps on saying in today's generation people are taught many things in school but not about being moral. Education; the best investment.
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The violation of individual rights is always wrong. Just because something is immoral, doesn't mean anybody has the right to stop you from doing it.
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I think it should be legal and able to be regulated by the government and as well as non-regulated.
For the sex workers regulated by the government, it is taxed, however the sex workers and clients are health screened.
And if your neighbor down the screen wants to sell you sex in exchange for any other kind of personal favor, well that's just fine too, but it's not taxed or regulated, although completely legal.
In summary, let people do what they want to do, it's in their freedom (imo), but we can at least provide some means of controlling it by providing regulated brothels as well.
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United States24351 Posts
On September 30 2012 12:09 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 12:00 micronesia wrote:On September 30 2012 11:01 Bigtony wrote: I would like to live in a world where people don't have to sell the intimate nature of their bodies to make a living. I think most people agree with you on this, although I don't think whether it's legal or illegal has any bearing. Making it illegal doesn't make people suddenly not need income, as I'm sure you know. Same thing with drug dealers, I doubt drug dealers come into the profession out of love for the job. They need to make money to bay bills like everyone else but they turned to illegal activities instead because they are easier. Magically making it legal isn't going to stop them from doing it, they will just have an easier time not worrying about being arrested. It seems like you are pointing out an inaccuracy in what I said, but I don't see any.
Bigtony was implying that making prostitution illegal would rescue people from the need to do things such as sell the intimate nature of their bodies to make a living. Obviously, it wasn't his intention (I assume), but to be sure/clear I pointed out that whether it's illegal or not does not affect whether or not people are compelled to such drastic measures.
Your statement seems to imply that I was saying making hard drug dealing legal will make people less likely to feel the need to be drug dealers... which I was not aiming for.
I won't justify a stance of "make prostitution legal" with "making it legal/illegal doesn't make the need for income go away" lol
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On September 30 2012 12:44 Grobyc wrote: I think it should be legal and able to be regulated by the government and as well as non-regulated.
For the sex workers regulated by the government, it is taxed, however the sex workers and clients are health screened.
And if your neighbor down the screen wants to sell you sex in exchange for any other kind of personal favor, well that's just fine too, but it's not taxed or regulated, although completely legal.
In summary, let people do what they want to do, it's in their freedom (imo), but we can at least provide some means of controlling it by providing regulated brothels as well.
BJ for mowing your lawn? I agree stuff like that should be allowed, who says people don't do that know just behind closed doors.
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On September 30 2012 02:09 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2012 23:55 iamtrickster wrote: Listen...chances are...if we trace back the people we have all had sex with.. we have all had sex everyone in this thread has fucked each other....well that's fun.
Go America Uh... we all have a common ancestor, sure. But you can't go backwards dozens of generations and then also go forwards down other branches to come back to other people and say we've fucked each other. lol. That's not really how it works. Unless you're saying that the people I've fucked have fucked other people, who have fucked other people, who (...) have fucked you (across just this generation). Which is obviously just as absurd, considering TL is a global community and the vast majority of people on this site haven't had sex with a huge number of partners, let alone internationally. I'd be surprised if a single pair of TL members ever shared a sex partner, even if you go through a second or third degree of connection.
2nd and 3rd degree definatly, and i think there must be quiet a few 1st degrees also, just think of all the groups of friends who play sc and who live near eachoter, its not that unlikely they shared a sexpartner. My guess is at least 10 among active posters. Interesting is also to think how manny steps would be needed to connect you to everyone in the world who more or less regulary has sex. It must be somewhere between the 20th degree i think?
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On September 30 2012 12:09 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 12:00 micronesia wrote:On September 30 2012 11:01 Bigtony wrote: I would like to live in a world where people don't have to sell the intimate nature of their bodies to make a living. I think most people agree with you on this, although I don't think whether it's legal or illegal as any bearing. Making it illegal doesn't make people suddenly not need income, as I'm sure you know. Same thing with drug dealers, I doubt drug dealers come into the profession out of love for the job. They need to make money to bay bills like everyone else but they turned to illegal activities instead because they are easier. Magically making it legal isn't going to stop them from doing it, they will just have an easier time not worrying about being arrested.
Bad example. Drug users have a direct negative effect on society and children that employees adverse and dangerous drugs. Prostitutes, if legal, would simply sell their body to the highest bidder. Who suffers? The prostitutes, it's their choice that is freedom and the buyer? If it's regulated and clean (not illegal) then there is no issue again.
A better example would be the practice of religion. I believe religion to be unethical and immoral and teaches imaginary things, I believe it has a negative effect on the mind and teaches it to be close minded and also I believe it leads to violence and disorder among different religions. Yet why is it legal while my moral compass believes it should be illegal? Because my morality and my ethics should not dictate how other people use their free will and unless that free will directly (key word) inhibits another persons free will then I can't find a reasonable argument to correct it.
There is no real arguable reason in today's society to ban prostitution, their is only an ethical "I feel like we just shouldn't have this". But is that good enough?
Of course if you provide some reason why it should be banned or what type of effects it has then feel free to share them ^^
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On September 30 2012 12:50 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 12:09 Zooper31 wrote:On September 30 2012 12:00 micronesia wrote:On September 30 2012 11:01 Bigtony wrote: I would like to live in a world where people don't have to sell the intimate nature of their bodies to make a living. I think most people agree with you on this, although I don't think whether it's legal or illegal as any bearing. Making it illegal doesn't make people suddenly not need income, as I'm sure you know. Same thing with drug dealers, I doubt drug dealers come into the profession out of love for the job. They need to make money to bay bills like everyone else but they turned to illegal activities instead because they are easier. Magically making it legal isn't going to stop them from doing it, they will just have an easier time not worrying about being arrested. Bad example. Drug users have a direct negative effect on society and children that employees adverse and dangerous drugs. Prostitutes, if legal, would simply sell their body to the highest bidder. Who suffers? The prostitutes, it's their choice that is freedom and the buyer? If it's regulated and clean (not illegal) then there is no issue again. A better example would be the practice of religion. I believe religion to be unethical and immoral and teaches imaginary things, I believe it has a negative effect on the mind and teaches it to be close minded and also I believe it leads to violence and disorder among different religions. Yet why is it legal while my moral compass believes it should be illegal? Because my morality and my ethics should not dictate how other people use their free will and unless that free will directly (key word) inhibits another persons free will then I can't find a reasonable argument to correct it. There is no real arguable reason in today's society to ban prostitution, their is only an ethical "I feel like we just shouldn't have this". But is that good enough? Of course if you provide some reason why it should be banned or what type of effects it has then feel free to share them ^^
Um no it's not a bad example. You're overthinking way too much and turned this into a debate about religion, god knows how, pun intended. I used drug dealer as an example of an illegal activity people do to make money, same rule applies to prostitution and my example is perfectly fine. This conversation is about doing illegal things to earn a living, nothing about morals or negative effects on society.
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On September 30 2012 12:44 Grobyc wrote: And if your neighbor down the screen wants to sell you sex in exchange for any other kind of personal favor, well that's just fine too, but it's not taxed or regulated, although completely legal.
Bartering of services is taxable in the U.S. Difficulty of enforcement is a different matter. But one can't say it's not taxed, at least in the U.S.
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On September 30 2012 09:06 zalz wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 08:56 cristo1122 wrote: legalised is better than illegal as if its illegal it will result in crime and corruption (which is why it was legalised in much of australia). Also its really a not a matter for government to regulate peoples social behaviour.
Legalisation also reduces the incentive to engage in sex slavery and other activities that would force vunerable individuals to be forced into a dependant position by another party. I don't think that legalizing prositution will greatly influence whether the women are enaged in it willingly or by force. It will make the whole scene more public, but even in Holland you have illegal prostitution (since the legal zone is extremely limited and very expensive). Like I said before, in Amsterdam the amount of women that are prostitutes are increasingly there against their will, or being taken advantage of (having their pay taken from them). Why was the red light area better a few decades ago? What changed? Not much. Criminals got smarter and Eastern-Europe opened up. I agree that the problem in prostitution is the criminal force that runs through it, but removing that corruption isn't done by legalizing it, you need to combine it with intensive police attention. But try and gather support for helping women that are prostitutes. Not exactly a demographic that stirs up the base, sad to say. Prostitute or whore is still an insult, and women that have these professions are still generally viewed as sub-human. So, as much as I am in favor of legalizing prostitution, I think it is a mistake to try and portray the situation as better than it is. After legalizing it, there are a lot of things that need to happen before that industry can be considered healthy.
The point, though, is that legalization makes things better. It doesn't make the problems magically disappear, but it helps.
If prostitution was legal and regulated in the same manner that strip clubs are, then much of the problems would be effectively addressed.
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On September 30 2012 12:03 SoOThSLaYeR wrote: Excellent post OP.
One of the issues i felt hasn't been brought up is that we assume that prostitutes will have sex with anyone. I'm not entirely sure this is the case, whats to say that prostitutes will only provide their services to attractive costumers? Would it be fair to discriminate against less attractive people who want to purchase a service? Would the monetary exchange be the same for customers of different races and ethnic groups? If it isn't are we promoting racism or something? Overall i think prostitution could be a viable profession but what should it be based around? I'm interested to hear other peoples opinions!
again great OP
The sad truth of the matter is that if you sign up to work in a brothel, call girl service or sign a contract to be someone's paid sex partner over a period of time, etc, then you will come under pressure to have sex with people or at times that you really don't want to. The most humane system would be to avoid "contractual" sex as much as possible, a smart prostitute would avoid working anywhere or signing contracts for anything where he/she would be pressured to not refuse sex later. Best system is relative autonomy and the ability to pick and choose sessions and clientele, like a lot of other independent professionals have. Anti discrimination laws tend not to focus on these types of independent transactions, more on fair and equal access to businesses and public accommodations...
Basically, you should have the right to enter a brothel and receive the same services as anyone else. However brothels should only be facilitators, allowing you to meet prostitutes, who are themselves autonomous and independent professionals. Thus no discrimination (at least not on the brothels part) if one or all of them turn you down. I also like the idea of prostitutes paying a fee to be in the brothel rather than having their rates be decided for them, large cuts taken out of all their nightly profits, etc which feels more like exploitation.
Decentralization with non coercive support structures is key.
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On September 30 2012 13:56 Zahir wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 12:03 SoOThSLaYeR wrote: Excellent post OP.
One of the issues i felt hasn't been brought up is that we assume that prostitutes will have sex with anyone. I'm not entirely sure this is the case, whats to say that prostitutes will only provide their services to attractive costumers? Would it be fair to discriminate against less attractive people who want to purchase a service? Would the monetary exchange be the same for customers of different races and ethnic groups? If it isn't are we promoting racism or something? Overall i think prostitution could be a viable profession but what should it be based around? I'm interested to hear other peoples opinions!
again great OP The sad truth of the matter is that if you sign up to work in a brothel, call girl service or sign a contract to be someone's paid sex partner over a period of time, etc, then you will come under pressure to have sex with people or at times that you really don't want to. The most humane system would be to avoid "contractual" sex as much as possible, a smart prostitute would avoid working anywhere or signing contracts for anything where he/she would be pressured to not refuse sex later. Best system is relative autonomy and the ability to pick and choose sessions and clientele, like a lot of other independent professionals have. Anti discrimination laws tend not to focus on these types of independent transactions, more on fair and equal access to businesses and public accommodations... Basically, you should have the right to enter a brothel and receive the same services as anyone else. However brothels should only be facilitators, allowing you to meet prostitutes, who are themselves autonomous and independent professionals. Thus no discrimination (at least not on the brothels part) if one or all of them turn you down. I also like the idea of prostitutes paying a fee to be in the brothel rather than having their rates be decided for them, large cuts taken out of all their nightly profits, etc which feels more like exploitation. Decentralization with non coercive support structures is key.
But if prostitutes could decide on who exactly to have sex with wouldn't that exactly like real life and meeting a woman? Minus the money of course. The type of people who go to prosititutes don't have the looks, resources, ability, etc to get woman normally so why would prostitutes be any better if they have just as much freedom with their choices, they are just going to get turned down too regardless.
It's a tricky thing really.
I only see this either turning all woman into prostitutes for a certain price or prostitution would go out of business if only good looking attractive guys are given the OK. Which if that happens, why are they going to prostitutes in the first place, they obviously can get some action for free from normal woman.
Would prostitution be only be for a very small subset of people who are below average looking but still doable, but lack any type of socializing behavior needed to get woman? Which would be fixed by simply being upfront and paying for it.
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On September 30 2012 12:58 Zooper31 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 30 2012 12:50 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On September 30 2012 12:09 Zooper31 wrote:On September 30 2012 12:00 micronesia wrote:On September 30 2012 11:01 Bigtony wrote: I would like to live in a world where people don't have to sell the intimate nature of their bodies to make a living. I think most people agree with you on this, although I don't think whether it's legal or illegal as any bearing. Making it illegal doesn't make people suddenly not need income, as I'm sure you know. Same thing with drug dealers, I doubt drug dealers come into the profession out of love for the job. They need to make money to bay bills like everyone else but they turned to illegal activities instead because they are easier. Magically making it legal isn't going to stop them from doing it, they will just have an easier time not worrying about being arrested. Bad example. Drug users have a direct negative effect on society and children that employees adverse and dangerous drugs. Prostitutes, if legal, would simply sell their body to the highest bidder. Who suffers? The prostitutes, it's their choice that is freedom and the buyer? If it's regulated and clean (not illegal) then there is no issue again. A better example would be the practice of religion. I believe religion to be unethical and immoral and teaches imaginary things, I believe it has a negative effect on the mind and teaches it to be close minded and also I believe it leads to violence and disorder among different religions. Yet why is it legal while my moral compass believes it should be illegal? Because my morality and my ethics should not dictate how other people use their free will and unless that free will directly (key word) inhibits another persons free will then I can't find a reasonable argument to correct it. There is no real arguable reason in today's society to ban prostitution, their is only an ethical "I feel like we just shouldn't have this". But is that good enough? Of course if you provide some reason why it should be banned or what type of effects it has then feel free to share them ^^ Um no it's not a bad example. You're overthinking way too much and turned this into a debate about religion, god knows how, pun intended. I used drug dealer as an example of an illegal activity people do to make money, same rule applies to prostitution and my example is perfectly fine. This conversation is about doing illegal things to earn a living, nothing about morals or negative effects on society.
But it's not comparable... An illegal thing that harms people vs an illegal thing that doesn't. If religion was illegal it would fit that criteria of indirect harm that prostitution (note the comparison on ethical/moral concern) and that is the discussion and why religion/prostitution can be compared where the only comparison between drug dealing and prostitution is that you make money, then I suppose my job as an IT tech is comparable to prostitution by that comparison.
Like I said, unless you can present some reason why it should be illegal other then "well... it's already illegal, it's kinda unethical in my opinion and you make money" that is an invalid argument.
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