On September 24 2013 17:48 RyLai wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2013 17:27 cLutZ wrote:On September 24 2013 16:40 RyLai wrote:On September 24 2013 16:32 cLutZ wrote:On September 24 2013 14:39 Dazed_Spy wrote:On September 24 2013 14:19 BigFan wrote:On September 24 2013 05:44 Uhnno wrote:On September 24 2013 05:33 FT.aCt)Sony wrote:Just going through the list you have alot of numbers that are way off. Example is Goku super sayain during Freiza saga is 15 million not 150 million. So you can make alot of adjustments on it. I've attached a spoiler below with the correct numbering from DBZ (if you want a DB and a GT let me know. Even though GT is a total failure.) + Show Spoiler +
Time: Raditz Battle Farmer 5 Gohan 1-710 Gohan really angry 1, 130 Goku 334 Goku without heavy clothes 416 Goku Kamehameha 924 Krillin 206 Master Roshi 160 Piccolo 322 Piccolo without weighted clothes 408 Piccolo Makankosappo (first try) 1,330 Piccolo Makankosappo (second try) 1,440 Raditz 1,200 Tien 250 Turtle 0.001 Yamcha 177
Time: Saiya-jin Battle Chaozu 610 Gohan 981 Masenko 2,800 Oozaru 9,810-28,000 Goku 5,000 Goku charged up 8,000 Goku Kaio-Ken 12,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x2 16,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x3 24,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x4+Kamehameha 32,000 Krillin 1,083 - max 1,770 Nappa 4,000 Piccolo 1,220 - max 3,500 Saibamen 1,200 Tien 1,830 Vegeta 18,000 Oozaru 180,000 Yamcha 1,480
Time: Freeza Saga Gohan 1,500 Gohan after Guru charge 12,500 Gohan after Senzu Heal 17,000 Gohan while fighting Freeza 20,000 Krillin 1,500 Krillin after Guru's charge 11,000 Krillin after Senzu Heal 16,500 Krillin after Dende's Heal 19,000 Freeza's Henchmen 500 Kui 19,000 Dodoria 21,000 Zarbon 23,000 - Transformed 33,000 Vegeta 24,000 Vegeta after Zarbon Fight 35,000 Vegeta after Recoome Fight 300,000 Vegeta after Krillin's Attack 1,000,000 Guldo 10,000 Recoome 40,000 Burter 45,000 Jeice 50,000 Captain Ginyu 120,000 Ginyu In Goku's Body 23,000 Nail 42,000 Dende 10 Piccolo 200,000 Piccolo after fusion with Nail 800,000 Piccolo after Dende Heal 1,500,000 Goku 5,000 Goku after gravity training 180,000 Goku after Ginyu fight 300,000 Goku kaio-Ken x10 3,000,000 Goku kaio-Ken x20 6,000,000 Goku Super Saiyan 15,000,000 Freiza 530,000 Freiza form 2 1,000,000 Freiza form 3 2,500,000 Freiza final Form 4,000,000 Freiza 50% of max 6,000,000 Freiza 70% of max 8,400,000 Freiza 100% of max 12,000,000
Time: Garlic Jr. Saga Garlic Jr. 1,000,000 Garlic Jr. transformed 4,000,000 Gohan 900,000 Gohan really masenko 4,500,000 Kami 300,000 Krillin 600,000 Piccolo 2,000,000
Time: Trunks Saga Vegeta 4,000,000 Piccolo 3,000,000 Gohan 1,000,000 Krillin 750,000 Tien 800,000 Yamcha 700,000 Chaozu 500,000 Freeza's Henchmen 5,000 Freeza bot 12,500,000 King Cold 13,000,000 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 18,000,000 Surpressed 5 Super Saiya-jin Goku 20,000,000
Time: Android Saga Super Saiyan Goku 23,000,000 Goku sick 5,000,000 Goku after room of spirit and time 110,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 25,000,000 Vegeta after room of spirit and time 90,000,00 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 20,000,000 Trunks Ultra Super Saiyan 130,000,000 Piccolo 18,000,000 Piccolo after fusion with Kami 40,000,000 Gohan 6,000,000 Gohan after room of spirit and time 120,000,000 Krillin 4,500,000 Tien 4,000,000 Yamcha 3,000,000 Android 16 40,000,000 Android 17 35,000,000 Android 18 35,000,000 Android 19 10,000,000 Android 20 5,000,000 Cell 35,000,000 Cell after absorbing humans 45,000,000 Cell after absorbing Android 17 65,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000
Time: Cell Saga Super Saiyan Trunks 105,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 100,000,000 Super Saiyan Gohan 130,000,000 SSJ2 Gohan 325,000,000 Super Saiyan Goku 120,000,000 Piccolo 60,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
Majin Buu Saga
Fat Buu: 45,000,000 Majin Buu: 80,000,000 Good Buu: 55,000,000 Bad Buu: 65,000,000 Super Buu: 70,000,000 Ultimate Buu: 50,000,000 Majin Gotunks Buu: 90,000,000 Majin Veggetto Buu: 100,000,000 Goku: 5,000,000 Goku: super saiyan: 27,000,000 Goku: super saiyan 2: 49,500,000 Goku: super saiyan 3: 79,999,999 Goku: genki-dama: 100,000,000 Piccolo: 26,000,000 Gohan: 3,000,000 Gohan: super saiyan: 25,000,000 Gohan: with the Z sword: 53,000,000 Goten: 1,500,000 Goten: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Trunks: 1,500,000 Trunks: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Gotunks: 3,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan: 20,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan 3: 75,000,000 Vegeta: 5,000,000 Vegeta: super saiyan: 26,500,000 Vegeta: super saiyan 2: 49,000,000 Veggetto: 10,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan: 53,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000
There are tons of things wrong in your list, especially during the Cell and Buu Saga, somehow everyone in Buu is weaker than Perfect Cell, when obviously that is not true. Even SSJ 3 Goku is weaker than Cell, who got his ass handed by SSJ2 Gohan. It's fun to make up numbers, but the official formulas have been ignored real badly. agree with this especially this part: Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000 Perfect cell: 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000 My thoughts were, what? cell is stronger than vegitto? The character who played around with Super Buu even kicking his ass when he was a piece of candy XD To be fair he was a jaw breaker. One of the problems with the assumption that "Frieza must be XX" etc, is what if DBZ fighting is like Tennis? In tennis, even being slightly better at the game results in total domination. Frieza MUST be at least a third of the stated power level given in the Daizenshuu. I just did the math. And being slightly better in tennis doesn't result in total domination unless we're talking about true NTRP ratings. A .5 difference in NTRP is actually a large difference in skill (one example is of it being the difference between an absolute beginner and someone who can actually hit the ball inside the lines somewhat consistently during practice). Also, with Tennis, physical performance varies a lot because there's always a luck factor (tennis at it's absolute core is a game of percentages, meaning nothing is absolute and being unlucky by itself can mean defeat in the worst case scenario) and that no NORMAL human can keep up the same level of performance for long periods of time (DBZ doesn't consist of normal humans though, or even humans for that matter). Let me just say it like this: I Can 6-0 6-0 my Brother, Who Can 6-0 6-0 my sister. There is no discernible difference between them to me. Now, the same is true for a pair of my friends who can crush me. 6-0 or 6-1. One of them has a brother who beats him 6-0/6-1 and our other friend Sam beats all of us easily 6-0. Now Sam is good, but any ATP pro would 6-0 his ass. And most of those get Dominated by a guy like Isner 6-0 or 6-1, and he gets slaughtered by guys like Nadal and Djoker. And these are just regular humans we are talking about (basically all power lvl 5-6 in DBZ). The fact is, you dont have to be much stronger than another DBZ character to beat them. 1% might be able to do. On top of that, I still think the Super Saiyan multipliers are BS post-initial-transformation. If you can double bagel someone, you can easily double bagel someone they can easily beat. There'd be no difference to you, cause you're on a different level. If you were to view them subjectively with the knowledge of a high level coach, you'd notice a key difference(s). Also, Isner loses to Nadal and Djokovic, but he won't get consistently bageled by them. Even Federer didn't do that and Federer was the king of handing out bagels and breadsticks. A difference of 1% leads to a life and death battle similar to Tien vs Goku, Piccolo Sr. vs Goku, and Piccolo Jr. vs Goku during the Tenkaichi Budokai. It's an unpredictable fight and either person can win. Again, if you don't follow a set multiplier system, you're literally just pulling numbers out of your ass with no system to follow other than the comparison system. In that case, comparisons between characters that never fight against one another are impossible to make unless they both fought against the same person, at the same time, and had noticeably different results. This means, it would be impossible to say that SS Gotenks>SS3 Goku. I could say SS3 Goku>SS3 Gotenks and you could NEVER EVER make a solid argument against me. With the set multiplier system, you can easily say that I was being a Goku fanboy and nothing more. That's not the only bullshit comparison I could make. I could also say that SS3 Goku>Super Buu (Gotenks Absorbed)>Ultimate Gohan, therefore meaning SS3 Goku>Ultimate Gohan, which we KNOW to be false. However, you have no hard evidence to refute me other than Goku's word that he can't beat Super Buu (he fights Super Buu in the anime, and takes a hell of a lot less damage than Gohan did; no data in the manga). Do you see how stupid fighting against the multiplier system is? Yeah, people who sit towards the middle of the system get screwed, but the numbers for the people on the outer limits (or who have been on the outer limits and haven't powered up by an unknown amount) are stable. Also, if you go with the decreasing multiplier theory, I have a single rebuttal that destroys it: Kaioken x10. If it's not stronger than Kaioken x10, it's a dead (preferably has to be stronger than Kaioken x20 also, otherwise he would use it in desperate times, like against Buu). Pretty hard to argue the multiplier system, or rather, it's extremely easy to argue for it, and I've yet to see any legitimate argument to refute it except for bickering over what the SS2 and SS3 multipliers are. That's cool and all, but there's 1 thing they don't take into account that destroys the entire model: Kaioken. At one point, Base Goku is 65 million and SS Goku is 210 million (or something like that). That means, Kaioken x5>Super Saiyan. That means Super Saiyan becomes entirely irrelevant and Goku might as well go Kaioken x10 and use that for his battles. Again, set multiplier system, otherwise we can make up whatever we want as long as there's no hard evidence to dispute it, like SS3 Goku being stronger than SS3 Gotenks (which isn't true since you can measure SS3 Gotenks' power in units of SS3 Gokus, which I guess I'll call "3ku"s from now on). No, the model is probably the most comprehensive one out there. It definitely factors in Kaioken. The model speculates that Kaioken's strain on the body becomes unmanageable (depending on species, physical condition etc.) such that it never really rivals SSJ's higher forms (ascended, ultra, 2 and 3). SSJ, on the other hand, is a reservoir of power that does not rely on the body's condition aside from the energy required to transition to SSJ. Read the fic's special chapters. I like your model but davidstarlingm's model is the best reasoned model for DBZ power levels yet.
Edit:
USSJ, he proposes, is similar to Kaioken in that it channels and traps ki into one's body for unsustainable bursts/periods of additional power.
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