This is a fairly debated topic in DBZ forums. I wonder how the TL forums will handle it (hopefully more civilized, though I'd imagine with far less knowledge on the topic). I don't feel like making more forum accounts to discuss something that isn't set in stone and has a WIDE range of possible acceptable answers, so I just dropped it here.
Most of the early numbers (up to end of Frieza Saga) are taken from Japanese Manga or Shonen Jump (Manga being definitive source, and Shonen Jump being basically definitive). Some numbers were estimated, and will not be listed as a hard number if that is the case. Also, there was an error in the original few runs of Vegeta's power level vs the Ginyu Force (originally stated to be 20,000, which didn't make any sense, and was fixed to be 30,000).
The multipliers I used were from Daizenshuu 7 (Super Exciting Guide) and are not debatable unless otherwise noted (in which case, I gave a formula/multiplier that gave acceptable numbers). I did a fairly large amount of research on this crap, and regardless of how crazy some of the later numbers may seem, it's much more legitimate than other lists because of the fact they couldn't accept relatively smaller gaps in power levels to lead to large differences in actual combat abilities.
I take 80% as a somewhat one-sided but lengthy fight (Goku vs Frieza) 70% to be clear domination (Gohan vs Buu) 90% to be a damn close fight (18 vs Vegeta, but 18 has infinite energy, Vegeta doesn't) 60% to be pretty much a beatdown, can win with 2 clean punches (Gohan vs Cell, Goku vs Recoome)
Enjoy, rage, discuss!
I'm actually fairly surprised the SEG formula for Fusion actually turned out somewhat decent. You'll understand when you get there and read what the formula actually was.
Note: Everything post-Frieza (aside from Trunks being at 5) is purely fan-made, but is done with a fair bit of analysis and the math is correct. ALSO NOTE THAT THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST CONSERVATIVE POWER LEVEL LISTS YOU WILL EVER FIND (and possibly the only one you'll ever find that got the SEG numbers to work)! Everything before that point however, has been through pretty harsh screening before I let the numbers in on this list, which is why you may not see some characters you want to see at some point of the list. I can give you my estimate, or the most recurring reasonable number I've seen (might be an average of several reasonable numbers in the same ballpark). Whichever you prefer.
Saibaiman: 1,200 Nappa: 4,000 Vegeta: 18,000 -Oozaru (Giant Monkey): between 40,000 and 180,000 (unlikely to be close to those boundaries, maybe around 60-70k)
Goku: over 8,000 -Surpressed: 5,000 -Kaioken xN = ~8,000xN (up to N=5 theoretically, though he only went up to 4 and demolished his body) Gohan: 981 -Firing Masenko (angry): over 2,800 Piccolo 3,500 -Surpressed: 1,220 Krillin 1,770 -Surpressed: 1083 Tien: 1,830 Yamcha: 1,480 Chiaotzu: 610 Yajirobe: 970 King Kai: 3,500
Kui: about 18,000 Dodoria: 22,000 Zarbon: 23,000 -Transformed: very likely around 27,000 Ginyu Force (except Guldo and Ginyu): Between 30,000 and 60,000; generally accepted around 42,000-45,000 Ginyu: 120,000 -in Goku's Body: 23,000
Gohan: -about 1,500 upon arrival -14,000 after Guru unlocks potential Krillin: -about 1,500 upon arrival -13,000 after Guru unlocks potential Vegeta: -upon arrival: 24,000 -after Zarbon: ~30,000 -After fighting Recoome: 250,000 (according to V-Jump, which I guess is considered a good source) Nail: 42,000 Goku: 90,000 -Surpressed: 5,000 -Kaioken x2: 180,000-Kaioken x10: 900,000
Frieza: 120,000,000 -First Form: 530,000 -Second Form: over 1,000,000 (generally accepted as 1,060,000-~1,500,000, pre- and post-Piccolo's arrival) -Third Form: around 2,000,000 (generally accepted as 2,120,000, though can easily be wrong) -Final Form, 50%: 60,000,000 -Final Form, 70%: 84,000,000 -Final Form, 100%: 120,000,000
Goku: 3,000,000 -Kaioken x10: 30,000,000 -Kaioken x20: 60,000,000 -Super Saiyan: 150,000,000 Piccolo: generally accepted as around 1,200,000 to just over 1,500,000 (post-fusion, arrival unknown) Vegeta: over 2,000,000 (2,400,000 is a good approximation) Gohan: probably close to 1,000,000 when he's really mad
To all of those who disagree with SS Goku's and Frieza's 100% power level, I'll solve this problem with commonly used magic I call analytical comparison and basic math.
Frieza form 2 is over 1 million. (Not debatable) Piccolo is stronger than Frieza Form 2, therefore, Piccolo is also over 1 million. (Not debatable.) In Goku's initial fight versus Frieza's final form, Piccolo states this is a fight outside of our league/realm of understanding. Also, at this point, Goku has yet to use Kaioken (the art's pretty noticeable), therefore, any number short of 1 million can't be debated to be true unless you live in a world where math doesn't exist. Goku uses Kaioken x20, and blows a Kamehameha at Frieza. Frieza blocks it with his hand, while claiming to be at 50% the entire time. Goku says he wasn't bluffing after all. This means, even if Frieza was wrong, he's not far off from being at 50% of his actual power. Ergo, 1+ million x 20 <= 50% Frieza, meaning Frieza's strength exceeds 40 million (and that's being on the absolute minimal side, his number is much higher).
If you believe Frieza is anything below 40 million for any reason whatsoever, and you believe Goku is below Frieza, I'm not even going to respond to you, cause you can't read, you can't think, and you're just so freakin' wrong there's no point trying to explain basic math to you. (Yes, bit harsh, but I'm TIRED of bitches nitpicking at THAT of all things. Even worse is when they cite another power levels list because that means NOTHING unless they cite their sources, which almost none of them do properly! I didn't do it properly either because most of the numbers I have ARE cited properly in the kanzenshuu.com link I posted below.)
Now comes the fun part where we have to use math and come up with reasonable estimates (more than before) Trunks Saga: + Show Spoiler +
Frieza: 120 million King Cold: 100 million
Trunks: 3 million -Surpressed: 5 (only known power level post Frieza Saga) -Super Saiyan: 150 million Vegeta: 2.5 million Piccolo: 2.2 million Goku: 4 million -Super Saiyan: 200 million
Android 19: 90 million Android 20: 100 million Android 18: 285 million (keep in mind, 17 and 18 don't lose energy, so an "even battle" still favors them) Android 17: 295 million Android 16: 415 million
Goku: 5.1 million -Super Saiyan: 255 million -Super Saiyan (energy drained+heart virus): 60 million -normal+energy drained+heart virus: ~500,000 Vegeta: 5.3 million -Super Saiyan: 265 million Trunks: 3.9 million -Super Saiyan: 195 million Piccolo: 125 million
Cell: -Imperfect Form: 250 million -Imperfect Form, more humans absorbed: 420 million -Semi-Perfect Form: 715 million -Perfect Form, surpressed: 1,000 million, 1 billion
Vegeta: 14 million -Super Saiyan: 700 million -Ascended Super Saiyan: 910 million Trunks: 13.8 million -Super Saiyan: 690 million -Ascended Super Saiyan: 897 million -Ultra Super Saiyan: 1,255.8 million, 1.2558 billion Piccolo: 320 million
Buu Saga: (I'm going to be lazy and say 1 kiri/kili=1 million in scouter power level units, this approximation was made by someone else) + Show Spoiler +
Pui Pui: 20 million (maybe even less) Yakon: 800 million Dabura: 4.2 billion Fat Buu: 16 billion Evil Buu: 20 billion
Goku: 60 million -Super Saiyan: 3 billion -Super Saiyan 2: 6 billion -Super Saiyan 3: 24 billion Vegeta: 55 million -Super Saiyan: 2.75 billion -Super Saiyan 2: 5.5 billion -Majin Super Saiyan: 3 billion -Majin Super Saiyan 2: 6 billion Gohan: 30 million -Super Saiyan: 1.5 billion -Super Saiyan 2: 3 billion Goten: 1.25 million -Super Saiyan: 62.5 million Trunks: 1.35 million -Super Saiyan: 67.5 million Gotenks: 10 billion (the ball breaker on numbers, you'll see why soon enough) -Super Saiyan (if he did it at this point): 500 billion
Fusion Saga: (I'm going to do this chronologically so you can understand where the numbers get wonky and would be difficult to follow otherwise) + Show Spoiler +
Goten (After going into the Hyperbolic Time Chamber/Room of Spirit and Time): 2.5 million -Super Saiyan: 125 million Trunks (After HBTC/RoSaT): 2.5 million -Super Saiyan: 125 million Gotenks: 20 billion -Super Saiyan: 1 trillion (and now you see why Gotenks is the nut cracker) -Super Saiyan 3: 8 trillion
Super Buu: 8 trillion
Ultimate Gohan: 11.5 trillion (oh how insignificant SS3 Goku has become)
Super Buu (SS3 Gotenks and Piccolo Absorbed): 16 trillion (and 900 million on top of that, but nobody cares)
SS3 Goku: 24 billion -normal: 60 million (remember when this SEEMED like a big number?)
Super Buu (after Gotenks defuse inside of him): 8 trillion
Super Buu (Gohan Absorbed): 19.5 trillion (gg)
Vegeta: 55 million
Vegito: 3.3 quadrillion -Super Saiyan: 165 quadrillion -Super Saiyan 2: 330 quadrillion -Super Saiyan 3: 1,320 quadrillion, 1.32 quintillion (The above numbers comes from the Potara fusion formula F=C(AxB) where C = 1)
Supreme Kai (Kaioshin): 150 billion (if you believe the English-dubbed anime, which was an exaggeration) -Actual: 500 million Kibito: 250 million Kibito Kai (Kibito Shin): 1.25 billion (why is this so relatively small when the numbers were bigger? Rival bonus, they don't have it; meaning C for these two is a REALLY large number like 100,000,000)
Movie Characters: Gogeta has no information to base off of, but if I were to guess, 4000(55x2) = 440,000 million = 440 trillion in base form. 22 quadrillion in SS 44 quadrillion in SS2 176 quadrillion in SS3 (This is using the values he should approximately be at during the Fusion Reborn movie; he only went as far as SS but he's assumed to be capable of SS2 and likely SS3, I have no numbers/comparisons with which to calculate his SS4 form in GT)
Broly in his first appearance (in LSS form) should be about 2.8 billion (so around 2.6-3 billion, which ever end you prefer to lean on at the end of this paragraph). You may ask why he's weaker than Gohan, and here's my argument: Broly takes down a ton of Super Saiyans, but he doesn't 1 shot them and he loses to SS Goku. Cell spawns a bunch of Cell Jrs (6 or 7), each of which were STRONGER than the aforementioned Super Saiyans. What did SS2 Gohan do to those little tykes? Yeah... He... one... shot... every... last... one of them... Gohan's feat is more impressive, ergo SS2 Gohan is superior. Also, Cell was pretty superior to the Cell Jrs, which makes me feel he's stronger than Broly (which is true looking at the number range anyway). Might turn out a bit differently when I finish reviewing the numbers, but these are their relative strengths.
I will not argue with people about HOW people got to be however strong they ended up being (like why Piccolo's growth rate is bull, aside from saying AT designed him that way). I WILL however explain how I got a number for a certain character at a certain point in time. I'll put whichever power levels I'm reviewing in the changelog section, so if you're question about levels in those points in time, discussion is more welcome than for other sections. I'm not saying discussion for other sections isn't unwelcome if you have good reasoning for it (though most don't), just saying it's easier to stick with what I'm currently looking at, since it'll be more organized that way and I'm going to constantly be reviewing these in a chronological order until it feels perfect or I get very tired of doing all the math, research, and analysis (I like doing math on trivial things, so it's mostly down to research and analysis, and I don't like reading when I can avoid it).
Multipliers: (only * are debatable: ASS, USS, and Fusion Dance) + Show Spoiler +
Kaioken: 1.5x Kaioken xN: Nx Super Saiyan: 50x (combined with Fusion, leads to REALLY messed up numbers) Ascended Super Saiyan: 65x*, or 1.3x Super Saiyan Ultra Super Saiyan: 91x*, or 1.82x Super Saiyan, or 1.4x Ascended Super Saiyan (Note: Speed decreases) Super Saiyan 2: 100x, or 2x Super Saiyan Super Saiyan 3: 400x, or 4x Super Saiyan 2 Fusion Dance: 4000(Ax2)*, where A is the weaker of the 2 (they match power levels to fuse; this is the only formula I could come up with so that Gotenks is stronger than SS2 Vegeta and weaker than Fat Buu by acceptable amounts) Potara Fusion: C(AxB), where C is the compatability constant, or "Rival Bonus". Note that this is not debatable except for what the actual value of C is. It was stated to be "more of a multiplication than addition". And THAT is why Vegito is the strongest character in DBZ.
If you want, I've also done the math on Super Saiyan God. I warn you now though, the numbers for that is a bit insane... + Show Spoiler +
Billis: 100 trillion -70% vs Goku: 70 trillion Whis: (likely even stronger than Billis; he basically 1-shot the guy) 250 trillion???
Goku: 70 million (has to be lower than 120 million, by at least a noticeably amount, so 100 million max) -Super Saiyan: 3.5 billion -Super Saiyan 2: 7 billion -Super Saiyan 3: 28 billion -Super Saiyan God: 70 trillion (multiplier of 1,000,000, or 2,500x Super Saiyan 3; has to be stronger than Super Buu)
No matter how you look at it in all seriousness though, the math strongly implies that Vegito>Billis (even if the Super Saiyan God multiplier was any bigger than it currently is).
Before you argue something, make sure you read the number right. (It gets tricky in some parts where million, billion, and trillion are all thrown in; might reformat the numbers and lists later if this thread is remotely popular.) And no, the magnitude of the numbers is NOT off. I COULD'VE been more conservative with some of the numbers at some parts, but I went with the general implications of the storyline, and the numbers ended up way bigger than I would've liked. :/
Amount of power required to blow up an object in space (planet/star/black hole/etc, in 1 shot). http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8329561/1/ In his math, he used the conservative conversion of 150 million - 3000 kili, which we all know to be false, since SS Goku during Buu Saga>>>SS Goku in Frieza Saga, but he admits that and says he used it as a definitive starting point. To use the numbers I gave, simply multiply his required power levels by 20, and to covert kilis to power level in the list I gave, 1 kili = 1 million power level (yeah, it's an easy conversion, the actual number, if one should ever exist, likely won't be this convenient, but should be fairly close).
9/23/13 Changed Trunks' power level vs Frieza to 3 million. Gohan says it's the same power Goku had on Namek. Changed Goku's power level vs Trunks to 4 million. Added mathematical explanation for why Frieza is NOT 12 million. If you argue Frieza's power level to be less than or equal to 40 million, your argument will instantly be ignored and treated as sheer stupidity (or talking out of the ass without any evidence like everyone else on the internet, whichever you prefer).
9/24/13 Noticed calculation error on Vegito (was redoing a bunch of numbers starting from the Androids Saga). He's actually in the quadrillions, not quintillions. I didn't write it out, and in my head at the time, I thought the conversion was (#0's-3)/3 (it's actually (#0's-6)/3 obviously, I don't often work with numbers over the millions zone). My bad. >< Guess he's not all that strong after all. I'm super sad now cause I can't call Vegito "Sexy Sextillion Vegito". :/ He won't hit the sextillion mark unless the SS4 multiplier is 1000xSS3. At least he still breaks the quintillion mark.
9/25/13 Added movie characters (Gogeta and Broly's first appearance) under the Just for Fun section.
At this point, rereading through some sections of manga where I feel more uncomfortable about, mainly the Cell Saga (Androids were the stickiest part for me, more than anything else). Expect at the very least the strengths of Androids 17 and 18 to likely take a big leap on the next update (everything else might get bigger as a result). If anyone would care to give their thoughts on how strong the androids are relative to Future Trunks, it would be helpful.
Facts on Trunks in comparison with Androids: -In Trunks' future, he is weaker than Gohan. -The previous time Gohan fought the Androids, 17 wasn't even using 50% of his abilities (so he'd be at 40% or 45%) and still beat Gohan. Trunks at the time is comparable, but weaker. This puts Gohan around 35% of 17 (this estimation is irrelevant to any and all future calculations, but throwing it out there). -Gohan had gotten stronger to the point that he believes he could beat 17 (yes, people are always like this and are often wrong, but let's say this is true), meaning he's around 45% or 50% of 17's abilities. -Trunks' fight with the androids, he's at the save level as Gohan, or a bit stronger, so 50-55%? -Trunks is the same level as Goku on Namek. (Do we consider a Zenkai boost? Meaning at this point he could be at 60% of the Androids?) -The nutcracker: After losing to the present Androids with Vegeta, Piccolo, and Tien, he says, "The Androids I faced weren't this strong. I could at least give them a decent fight." (English version, anyone with the Japanese version could shed some input on the second statement, since it's more important). What this means is the following: -*Present Androids are a lot stronger. -*Trunks was remotely comparable to the future Androids 70-75% of 17, which contradicts the earlier statement of him being around half his strength, which can still be true if Trunks trained a lot (that's a 50% increase on his part) or got some Zenkai bonuses, which don't seem to be happening post Frieza arc. I doubt it was Zenkai bonuses because that'd mean he was crazy enough to risk his life fighting the Androids multiple times to increase his power level (more likely that he did it to try to protect innocent civilians).
Key Question: Where should we put Trunks in relation to the Future/Present Androids? 75% of past Androids (17 is roughly up to 2x Namek SS Goku's power)? Or somewhere around 60%? 75% would be better since his performance suggests he's at 60% or below compared to the Present Androids (60% means 25% increase compared to Future Androids, and 50% being 50% increase). From there, Cell simply has to be stronger by a notable margin, and probably just add the strength of 17 to his power, then ASS Vegeta has to be stronger (and SS Goku has to be over twice that strength, with Gohan somewhere in that area and Cell's max being notably stronger, but not to the point where he's comparable to SS2 Gohan; this is how the system works by the way, I just choose the smallest number that fits the situations and round it to the prettiest looking number).
Some of the formatting was confusing. For example, you list Vegito twice, using quintillion and quadrillion - but I think the quadrillion one is correct because 1000 trillion = 1 quadrillion, but 10 quadrillion != 1 quintillion. So just a little unclear there.
Ahh DBZ. To be honest the best parts of the show for me were the early episodes. The Saiyan Saga was epic up to the Frieza saga. After the introduction of Trunks there's the Android saga and Cell and later Buu comes into the picture, and the story lines start getting incredibly complicated (not only that but the action sequences become more slow motion which I found quite dull compared to the super fast action in earlier seasons). The Goku vs Frieza fight I feel is the best fight in the series and also probably the peak of the show (all the episodes on Namek were pretty epic and it's appropriate when the planet blows up and Goku is trying to escape after killing Frieza). Second best fight would have to be Goku vs Vegeta (the first time they meet). Thought it was pretty cool how henchmen were integral parts of the show (like how epic it was when Vegeta killed Nappa and how a recently turned Super Saiyan Goku totally obliterated the Ginyu Force (but it was kinda cheesy how Captain Ginyu turns into a frog)
KEEPING IN MIND THAT IT IS POSSIBLE FOR POWER LEVEL READINGS TO BE DECREASED BY PHYSICAL ENCUMBERMENT, DO YOU BELIEVE IN YOUR HEART THAT THE POWER LEVEL OF THE FARMER IS HIS BASE POWER LEVEL, OR THAT IT INCLUDES THE GUN? BE HONEST.
I've always thought that it was kind of crazy that people's power levels went from 10,000 to over billions over the course of the show, with everyone's power level growing by 100 times every saga
Such a cool way to look at how Goku was usually under the main saga's villain and how everyone was able to overcome said villain :D I've been learning Japanese for a little while now and just bought the whole Japanese Dragon Ball manga series for only $50 lol. Half of them are even new and from the original printing from 1985-1995. This thread got me even MORE HYPE TO READ THEM!!!
Isn't he called Vegetto, when Vegeta und Goku fuse with those ear rings (instead of Vegito)? And why did you leave out Gogeta who should be the strongest SSJ at least (perhaps strongest figure in the whole franchise?), what would his values be? I like what you did here though! Even though the numbers get hilarious pretty fast. I think after they kill Freeza it gets nuts, but before that I liked this system. Do you mean SSJ4 when you write Super Saiyan God?
On September 23 2013 05:36 CruelZeratul wrote: Isn't he called Vegetto, when Vegeta und Goku fuse with those ear rings (instead of Vegito)? And why did you leave out Gogeta who should be the strongest SSJ at least (perhaps strongest figure in the whole franchise?), what would his values be? I like what you did here though! Even though the numbers get hilarious pretty fast. I think after they kill Freeza it gets nuts, but before that I liked this system. Do you mean SSJ4 when you write Super Saiyan God?
Vegito is stronger than Gogeta because the fusion dance is weaker.
On September 23 2013 05:36 CruelZeratul wrote: Isn't he called Vegetto, when Vegeta und Goku fuse with those ear rings (instead of Vegito)? And why did you leave out Gogeta who should be the strongest SSJ at least (perhaps strongest figure in the whole franchise?), what would his values be? I like what you did here though! Even though the numbers get hilarious pretty fast. I think after they kill Freeza it gets nuts, but before that I liked this system. Do you mean SSJ4 when you write Super Saiyan God?
Super Saiyan God is a special power-up that was introduced in one of the newest movies (http://dragonball.wikia.com/wiki/Super_Saiyan_God). I guess Akira Toriyama ran out of new hair styles.
On September 23 2013 05:40 marconi wrote: SS4 Gogeta was proly the strongest in all the series, but he's from DBGT so...
If the math he used is correct, and the earrings multiply their power while the dance adds them, that may not be the case. But power levels just get silly at that point. Far before it, actually.
On September 23 2013 05:40 marconi wrote: SS4 Gogeta was proly the strongest in all the series, but he's from DBGT so...
If the math he used is correct, and the earrings multiply their power while the dance adds them, that may not be the case. But power levels just get silly at that point. Far before it, actually.
Yeah but SS4 Goku and Vegeta are the ones fusing, and their power levels alone are proly higher than vegito's :D
On September 23 2013 05:40 marconi wrote: SS4 Gogeta was proly the strongest in all the series, but he's from DBGT so...
If the math he used is correct, and the earrings multiply their power while the dance adds them, that may not be the case. But power levels just get silly at that point. Far before it, actually.
Yeah but SS4 Goku and Vegeta are the ones fusing, and their power levels alone are proly higher than vegito's :D
Are they really millions or billions of times stronger than in the DBZ sage? Multipling billions by billions gets you into absurd territory. That's why, if the earring really multiply their power, it is indeed possible. And why Vegito is dumb.
I never finished DBZ (goten/trunks annoyed the HELL out of me), did Vegito ever go SSJ and did he need to? If he really is quintillions at base he overshadowed everybody by a mile.
On September 23 2013 05:57 TheRabidDeer wrote: I never finished DBZ (goten/trunks annoyed the HELL out of me), did Vegito ever go SSJ and did he need to? If he really is quintillions at base he overshadowed everybody by a mile.
IIRC he easily beat Buu, not sure if he had to go SSJ, and then destroyed the earrings. So it is basically is a really dumb form that just gave them a quick win needed for the plot and then they found an excuse not to use it again.
Let's look at what a quintillion really is: 1 000 000 000 000 000 000
i think it is generally accepted that the introduction of ssj was one of the biggest mistakes in the whole series. it immediately turned all non-saiyan characters into useless sidekicks and started a power level spiral upwards with new ssj-tiers coming up pretty much every saga.
its a very interesting thread nonetheless, thank you! i think, however, that the major reason for the twisted numbers towards the end is the multiplicative nature of the potara formula. yes, i know that it was basically said to be like that in the series, but it still doesnt make any sense. even in the lowest possible setting, a base version vegito would have stood at 33 vs 19,5 against super buu, so that the fight would have had to be much more onesided than actually shown.
On September 23 2013 06:01 Black Gun wrote: i think it is generally accepted that the introduction of ssj was one of the biggest mistakes in the whole series. it immediately turned all non-saiyan characters into useless sidekicks and started a power level spiral upwards with new ssj-tiers coming up pretty much every saga.
its a very interesting thread nonetheless, thank you! i think, however, that the major reason for the twisted numbers towards the end is the multiplicative nature of the potara formula. yes, i know that it was basically said to be like that in the series, but it still doesnt make any sense. even in the lowest possible setting, a base version vegito would have stood at 33 vs 19,5 against super buu, so that the fight would have had to be much more onesided than actually shown.
It could have just been SSJ and that's it. There was no need to increase SSJ from there, they just did cause everyone loves watching them power up.
Can somebody put these power numbers into a meaningful definition? For example, what does 3.3 Quintilian power actually let you do? Can you literally blink a galaxy out of existence at this point? Or do you just punch really hard...
If we base it on a constant scale against the original power levels it seems to favor the former...
Some of the formatting was confusing. For example, you list Vegito twice, using quintillion and quadrillion - but I think the quadrillion one is correct because 1000 trillion = 1 quadrillion, but 10 quadrillion != 1 quintillion. So just a little unclear there.
GT is non-cannon/non-official. Also, GT has absolutely no legitimate information to really guess at any of the values with. I would if I could. I doubt that anyone in GT beaks the quadrillion mark other than Omega Shenron and SS4 Gogeta.
I list Vegito twice, cause the first one uses C=1 in the formula C(AxB) (that is the actual formula for Potara Fusion, we just don't know what C is other than it's a variable based on the compatibility of the 2 people being fused). Look at the multipliers section. It might interest you a bit. The second listing has C=10,000 I think (off the top of my head), which brings him more in line with Super Buu without completely killing him beyond what he NEEDS to be able to do.
On September 23 2013 05:36 CruelZeratul wrote: Isn't he called Vegetto, when Vegeta und Goku fuse with those ear rings (instead of Vegito)? And why did you leave out Gogeta who should be the strongest SSJ at least (perhaps strongest figure in the whole franchise?), what would his values be? I like what you did here though! Even though the numbers get hilarious pretty fast. I think after they kill Freeza it gets nuts, but before that I liked this system. Do you mean SSJ4 when you write Super Saiyan God?
There are so many translations, if you understand who is being referenced, I'm happy.
Gogeta has no information to base off of, but if I were to guess, 4000(55x2) = 440,000 million = 440 trillion in base form. 22 quadrillion in SS 44 quadrillion in SS2 176 quadrillion in SS3 (This is using the values he should approximately be at during the Fusion Reborn movie; he only went as far as SS but he's assumed to be capable of SS2 and likely SS3, I have no numbers/comparisons with which to calculate his SS4 form in GT)
While we're on movie characters: Broly in his first appearance should be about 2.8 billion (so around 2.5-3 billion, which ever end you prefer to lean on at the end of this paragraph). You may ask why he's weaker than Gohan, and here's my argument: Broly takes down a ton of Super Saiyans, but he doesn't 1 shot them and he loses to SS Goku. Cell spawns a bunch of Cell Jrs (6 or 7), each of which were STRONGER than the aforementioned Super Saiyans. What did SS2 Gohan do to those little tykes? Yeah... He... one... shot... every... last... one of them... Gohan's feat is more impressive, ergo SS2 Gohan is superior. As for Gohan losing/struggling to him later on, I don't remember if Gohan was SS2 at the time, but Gohan was weaker than his teen self and Broly had the Saiyan Zenkai boost (surviving death mechanism which was abused to hell in the Frieza Arc).
And as someone else mentioned, SS God is SS God. It's a part of the most recent movie (Battle of Gods, literal translation being God and God), which was released this month on DVD and Blu-Ray (and is already subbed online)! It is far superior to SS4 in terms of what it did to Goku's power level. If you look at the math I did at the bottom, you'll see the multiplier for it is in the millions mark at least.
On September 23 2013 05:40 marconi wrote: SS4 Gogeta was proly the strongest in all the series, but he's from DBGT so...
SS4 Vegito would DESTROY SS4 Gogeta without contest. Depending on what then power level the weaker of Vegeta and Goku was at the end of GT, SS3 Vegito might stiill destroy SS4 Gogeta (depending on which value of C you use, C=1 Vegito would WRECK ass probably just at SS2), even taking into account the 10xSS3 multiplier that some people use for SS4 (I don't use it cause I don't count GT, though the number doesn't sound bad).
On September 23 2013 05:40 marconi wrote: SS4 Gogeta was proly the strongest in all the series, but he's from DBGT so...
If the math he used is correct, and the earrings multiply their power while the dance adds them, that may not be the case. But power levels just get silly at that point. Far before it, actually.
SEG states that "Potara fusion is more multiplication than addition". Fusion dance wasn't mentioned, but it's stated in the manga (and anime) that Potara fusion is stronger than Fusion dance. The fact is, Potara fusion IS a multiplication of their powers. The problem is, we don't know what value of C is used to bring those numbers down to the normal range, though it's very likely it varies based on the 2 people being fused (otherwise Kibitoshin would be the strongest character in the history of DBZ by far, instead of a side character).
And the reason the power levels get silly is because of 2 factors: the SS multiplier being 50x, and the Fusion creating a base Saiyan with the powers above that of a SS2 (Gotenks>SS2 Majin Vegeta). So, what do you get when you take a SS2 and give them a 50x multiplier on top of that, and the enemy villian STILL has to be stronger? Numbers get damn silly. Toriyama could've easily avoided this if he didn't create Kaioken x10 and Kaioken x20 (which forced SS to be a higher number from the original 10x he was imagining). Also, he could've just settled for base Gotenks being stronger than base Goku, but no... He had to be stronger than freakin SS2 Vegeta, who is 100x base Goku. =.= Unfortunately/fortunately, the math is correct. :/
On September 23 2013 06:11 On_Slaught wrote: Can somebody put these power numbers into a meaningful definition? For example, what does 3.3 Quintilian power actually let you do? Can you literally blink a galaxy out of existence at this point? Or do you just punch really hard...
If we base it on a constant scale against the original power levels it seems to favor the former...
I honestly believe it is much closer to the former. It got to a point where it is pretty silly to talk about what they can do unless we are talking about fighting each other. They all should easily be able to destroy planets and it is surprising (or a plot hole, you could say) they don't do it every time they fight.
On September 23 2013 06:11 On_Slaught wrote: Can somebody put these power numbers into a meaningful definition? For example, what does 3.3 Quintilian power actually let you do? Can you literally blink a galaxy out of existence at this point? Or do you just punch really hard...
If we base it on a constant scale against the original power levels it seems to favor the former...
i remember the scene were goku and vegeta have saved their kids and friends and removed them from the interior of super buu. buu transforms into kid buu, who is listed at a power level of about 24 billion. kid buu then quickly and almost effortlessly creates an energy ball that destroys the whole planet.
so if someone with a power level of 24 billion can wipe out one planet in seconds, he could probably destroy half a galaxy at once if he really tried. (well... actually not if we use real world astronomical dimensions, but with the interstellar distances shown in movies and television it would be possible.)
At those levels just the force of one of their punches, regardless of whether it hits, would at the very least destroy every life form on the continent, if not the whole planet.
On September 23 2013 06:18 On_Slaught wrote: At those levels just the force of one of their punches, regardless of whether it hits, would at the very least destroy every life form on the continent, if not the whole planet.
You really don't want to apply physics to DBZ. It's far worse than Superman.
On September 23 2013 06:11 On_Slaught wrote: Can somebody put these power numbers into a meaningful definition? For example, what does 3.3 Quintilian power actually let you do? Can you literally blink a galaxy out of existence at this point? Or do you just punch really hard...
If we base it on a constant scale against the original power levels it seems to favor the former...
i remember the scene were goku and vegeta have saved their kids and friends and removed them from the interior of super buu. buu transforms into kid buu, who is listed at a power level of about 24 billion. kid buu then quickly and almost effortlessly creates an energy ball that destroys the whole planet.
so if someone with a power level of 24 billion can wipe out one planet in seconds, he could probably destroy half a galaxy at once if he really tried. (well... actually not if we use real world astronomical dimensions, but with the interstellar distances shown in movies and television it would be possible.)
Frieza was capable of destroying planets on a whim (did it to the saiyan homeworld) without even transforming - so roughly 500,000. Using that as the standard for comparison, someone with a power level in the billions.... I'm not so sure it matters if we're using real life dimensions or movie standards.
On September 23 2013 05:57 TheRabidDeer wrote: I never finished DBZ (goten/trunks annoyed the HELL out of me), did Vegito ever go SSJ and did he need to? If he really is quintillions at base he overshadowed everybody by a mile.
IIRC he easily beat Buu, not sure if he had to go SSJ, and then destroyed the earrings. So it is basically is a really dumb form that just gave them a quick win needed for the plot and then they found an excuse not to use it again.
Let's look at what a quintillion really is: 1 000 000 000 000 000 000
vs a Billion 1 000 000 000
It's a really big number.
Went and watched the first bit with vegito... yea it looks pretty one sided. But still, quintillion? That is literally a million times stronger than buu.
Trunks: 2.7 million -Surpressed: 5 (only known power level post Frieza Saga) -Super Saiyan: 135 million
Goku: 3.3 million -Super Saiyan: 165 million
My problem with this is that final form Frieza vs Goku does result in a lengthy fight, even if it is somewhat one-sided, Goku has to work for the win (that's the 80% difference listed in the OP). Then, when you advance to the Trunks Saga, Trunks, who's power level is listed as 135 million compared to Goku's 150 million at the end of the Frieza Saga, completely annihilates Frieza, who's still sitting at 120 million. It's not even a fight. If I recall correctly, Frieza's actually supposed to be stronger because of his new mechanical parts (I'm not sure about this, but I thought he said something about it). Even if that's not the case though, that balance doesn't really make sense. The difference is only 15 million (Frieza is 88.8% of Trunks), and Trunks is weaker than Goku at the end of Frieza according to this ranking. Then, when Trunks tests Goku later on, Goku at 165 million is able to deflect all of Trunks blows with a single finger, even though their powers only differ by 30 million (Trunks is 81.8% of Goku).
The really outrageous power levels are one of the things that kind of killed my interest in the later parts of DBZ. I guess my suspension of disbelief couldn't handle it. Think about it: 18,000 is more than enough to destroy a planet. When you get into the trillions, a fart would probably wipe out the whole solar system.
On September 23 2013 06:11 On_Slaught wrote: Can somebody put these power numbers into a meaningful definition? For example, what does 3.3 Quintilian power actually let you do? Can you literally blink a galaxy out of existence at this point? Or do you just punch really hard...
If we base it on a constant scale against the original power levels it seems to favor the former...
On September 23 2013 06:18 On_Slaught wrote: At those levels just the force of one of their punches, regardless of whether it hits, would at the very least destroy every life form on the continent, if not the whole planet.
You really don't want to apply physics to DBZ. It's far worse than Superman.
Someone already did! LOL (Well, not really, just using storyline statements to make calculations)
The fact is though, his math is well off (though he did that to be on the safe side, cause well... He had no hard numbers to work with).
3000 Kili is closer to 3 billion (I doubt the numbers convert this cleanly, but I doubt it's too far off, given how some of the numbers need to be to make sense up until that point). 300 kilis was the value necessary to destroy the Earth (I think the actual statement was to destroy a planet). That's 300 million. He got 15 million. So multiply all the numbers he has by 20 (or 2 and tag on a 0), and you're good.
How many 0s is in a quintillion? Quadrillion+a set.
3.3 quintilian lets you blow up our Sun, VY Canis Majoris, Pistol Star, R136a1. You're about a factor of 13 off of destroying a supermassive black hole. Maybe if they trained a bit and went SS4. :O Someone wanna check my math? Did it in my head and may have counted the 0s wrong (SO MANY 0s).
These are numbers to 1-shot an object in space without a coreshot (in the case of planets or anything with a core, I don't study astronomy or anything in space). I think they already took into account the average powerup when committing to an energy attack.
On September 23 2013 05:20 Pretty Aluminum wrote: ssj 3 goku is by far the strongest at the end of dbz. Anyone who claims Mystic gohan is stronger is instantly stupid.
haha except that SSJ3 was = to buu where gohan smashed his face
Mm well depending on how good the sub I watched was, Whis said Bills went at 70% tops.
Power levels always seem a bit wierd since although its like "fighting potential", I'm sure there's been a few instances where people of lesser power can just expend all their power in one go and potentially kill people more "powerful". I guess it's a bit like Joules vs Watts.
As per any discussion like this: EVERYONE EXCEPT ME IS WRONG!!!!!11!1!!1111!!!11111oneoneone
Trunks: 2.7 million -Surpressed: 5 (only known power level post Frieza Saga) -Super Saiyan: 135 million
Goku: 3.3 million -Super Saiyan: 165 million
My problem with this is that final form Frieza vs Goku does result in a lengthy fight, even if it is somewhat one-sided, Goku has to work for the win (that's the 80% difference listed in the OP). Then, when you advance to the Trunks Saga, Trunks, who's power level is listed as 135 million compared to Goku's 150 million at the end of the Frieza Saga, completely annihilates Frieza, who's still sitting at 120 million. It's not even a fight. If I recall correctly, Frieza's actually supposed to be stronger because of his new mechanical parts (I'm not sure about this, but I thought he said something about it). Even if that's not the case though, that balance doesn't really make sense. The difference is only 15 million (Frieza is 88.8% of Trunks), and Trunks is weaker than Goku at the end of Frieza according to this ranking. Then, when Trunks tests Goku later on, Goku at 165 million is able to deflect all of Trunks blows with a single finger, even though their powers only differ by 30 million (Trunks is 81.8% of Goku).
I admit... I had some bias here to keep numbers from inflating (didn't realize how little it'd matter later on with the numbers getting absurd in the Buu Saga).
The thing with Trunks vs Frieza, Frieza never really took it too seriously and was mentally shaken up by Trunks. Trunks had a go for the kill mentallity after he stopped 3 of Frieza's attacks. Basically, if you are stronger than someone and catch them completely by surprise like Trunks basically did with his Burning Attack->Finishing Slash combo, you're bound to kill them, even with a marginal difference in strength. Granted, it helps to have a sword.
On September 23 2013 06:11 On_Slaught wrote: Can somebody put these power numbers into a meaningful definition? For example, what does 3.3 Quintilian power actually let you do? Can you literally blink a galaxy out of existence at this point? Or do you just punch really hard...
If we base it on a constant scale against the original power levels it seems to favor the former...
i remember the scene were goku and vegeta have saved their kids and friends and removed them from the interior of super buu. buu transforms into kid buu, who is listed at a power level of about 24 billion. kid buu then quickly and almost effortlessly creates an energy ball that destroys the whole planet.
so if someone with a power level of 24 billion can wipe out one planet in seconds, he could probably destroy half a galaxy at once if he really tried. (well... actually not if we use real world astronomical dimensions, but with the interstellar distances shown in movies and television it would be possible.)
Frieza was capable of destroying planets on a whim (did it to the saiyan homeworld) without even transforming - so roughly 500,000. Using that as the standard for comparison, someone with a power level in the billions.... I'm not so sure it matters if we're using real life dimensions or movie standards.
Keep in mind, Frieza always went for coreshots, which guaranteed destruction as long as his attack touched the core and caused instability in the planet. I've posted a link with calculations for non-coreshots. To convert it into the (more-or-less) correct numbers, multiply his power level values by 20 or multiply the kilis section by 1 million.
On September 23 2013 05:57 TheRabidDeer wrote: I never finished DBZ (goten/trunks annoyed the HELL out of me), did Vegito ever go SSJ and did he need to? If he really is quintillions at base he overshadowed everybody by a mile.
IIRC he easily beat Buu, not sure if he had to go SSJ, and then destroyed the earrings. So it is basically is a really dumb form that just gave them a quick win needed for the plot and then they found an excuse not to use it again.
Let's look at what a quintillion really is: 1 000 000 000 000 000 000
vs a Billion 1 000 000 000
It's a really big number.
Went and watched the first bit with vegito... yea it looks pretty one sided. But still, quintillion? That is literally a million times stronger than buu.
Yes, it's an absurdly big number, that's why I did the math twice with 2 fusion constants. One took the literal meaning of "you multiply them together" and the other used a value of C in C(AxB)=Fusion Power Level to get something more realistic, though we never see Vegito get pushed, so we don't truly know the full capabilities of his power. We have an idea of Gogeta's capabilities by just using the same formula I derived from Gotenks' relative strength compared to Goten and Trunks.
wow this thread . numbers really, even in the manga and anime POWER LEVEL becomes an obsolete concept (at the moment they stop using scouter, they don't keep track of it all they sense is khi/chi w/e u wanna call it)? number are so vague you could simply make a kind of ladder to translate their power level or Chi size.
How can you say that Vegito is stronger than Gogeta when in Vegito Vegeta has the upper hand while in Gogeta Goku has the upper hand and Goku >>>>> Vegeta ?
Also 70% Billis > Super Saiyan God so I guess either Billis is more than 70 trillions or Goku is under
On September 23 2013 06:40 MoonfireSpam wrote: Mm well depending on how good the sub I watched was, Whis said Bills went at 70% tops.
Power levels always seem a bit wierd since although its like "fighting potential", I'm sure there's been a few instances where people of lesser power can just expend all their power in one go and potentially kill people more "powerful". I guess it's a bit like Joules vs Watts.
As per any discussion like this: EVERYONE EXCEPT ME IS WRONG!!!!!11!1!!1111!!!11111oneoneone
Yeah, that's the argument I used to solve the Trunks barely stronger than Frieza problem. To be honest, I have trouble believing Trunks was as strong as Goku on Namek when he met him. Maybe he was, in-fact, stronger. I admitted that there was bias on my part to try and reduce the inflation of the numbers. In the end, Goku's base value should be much lower than 120 million, but I'm well within that limit, sooooooooo...
On September 23 2013 05:20 Pretty Aluminum wrote: ssj 3 goku is by far the strongest at the end of dbz. Anyone who claims Mystic gohan is stronger is instantly stupid.
haha except that SSJ3 was = to buu where gohan smashed his face
Wrong my dear. SS3 < Super Buu << Ultimate Gohan. Oh, unless you mean Gotenks, who is stronger than SS2 Goku, then you're right, SS3 = Super Buu << Ultimate Gohan. But for Goku, he's only roughly equal to Kid Buu, both of whom are vastly inferior to Super Buu, simply because Super Buu must be vastly superior to base Gotenks and Gotenks has a 400x multiplier for SS3 before he goes even to Super Buu. =.=
On September 23 2013 06:46 Lylat wrote: How can you say that Vegito is stronger than Gogeta when in Vegito Vegeta has the upper hand while in Gogeta Goku has the upper hand and Goku >>>>> Vegeta ?
Also 70% Billis > Super Saiyan God so I guess either Billis is more than 70 trillions or Goku is under
Vegito is stronger because the Potara fusion mechanic creates a MUCH STRONGER fusion than the Fusion dance counterpart. I used to be part of the Gogeta>Vegito camp too until I read it for myself in the manga. I think it's mentioned in the anime too.
And yeah, Billis does beat Goku using only 70%. But at the same time, Goku finishes off the fight in Super Saiyan, not Super Saiyan God form. Though if you had to put your money on it, I'd tell you bet on 70% Billis. I guess I'd rather say Goku is under 70 million, but this way sort of gives an easier idea of what the numbers are. Of course, Goku could be way under like he was against Frieza. Frieza went up to 70% and Goku was at 3 million and struggling.
Those numbers are just stupid after Namek. Like Picollo has 600 mill in the cell saga, while goku has 40 mill without SS, but he never was 15 times weaker than Picollo at that time, even in his normal form. The SS and fusion multiplying factor is way too high, their base levels get way higher as the series continues.
I thought Freiza final form was something in the range of 10 million? Not sure about your list bud, seems to me like an attempt to just rationalize the highest numbers you possible can :/
On September 23 2013 06:49 Musicus wrote: Why is Frieza's final from 60,000,000 - 120,000,000? Wasn't it stated his power always doubles? So 4,000,000 - 8,000,000.
Daizenshuu bitchesssss! But seriously, the power doubles thingy is a English dub thing. It's not real. Frieza's first iteration of his final form was like 3%, so 3.6 million. Don't know where to find it, so I didn't include it cause I was too lazy to confirm.
Frieza's 100% is known to be 120 million.
On September 23 2013 06:52 Superouman wrote: You didn't give any kind of source. You kind of show these numbers out of nowhere.
Added source for the pre Trunks Saga numbers. It's as meticulous as I am about following basically only the manga, and anything else I only allow if it's reasonable and has no contradictions and at the very least was released in someone run by Shonen Jump (like King Kai being 3,500 and Vegeta being 250,000 after fighting Recoome).
Everything after Trunks Saga is based on calculation and interpretation based on the story. Sadly, some people's words are less reliable than others (Vegeta). For example, the reason Goku's power in the Cell Games is so high, is because when he leaves the HBTC/RoSaT, he powers up to about half and surprises EVERYONE (including Vegeta, who was the strongest at the time, meaning he's at the very least stronger than Vegeta). So pick a number higher than Vegeta's, and double it without going absurdly high. Numbers in Buu saga are based off of well-known character strength comparisons. Power differential in difference of strength required to win a fight are based on fights with known power levels.
On September 23 2013 06:50 Paperplane wrote: Where do all these numbers even come from? Didn't they stop saying powerlevels after the frieza arc?
Yes, any power level list that includes post Frieza arc (aside from Trunks' power level of 5) is all left to interpretation within known limits (like base Goku not being any stronger than 120 million after the Buu Saga).
On September 23 2013 07:01 YumYumGranola wrote: I thought Freiza final form was something in the range of 10 million? Not sure about your list bud, seems to me like an attempt to just rationalize the highest numbers you possible can :/
The original online publication of 12 million was a widespread publication of a well-known source's typo/mistranslation. I put up a French version of the Daizenshuu, and it lists Frieza as 120 million in a far more readable way than the Japanese version. (Japanese denominations were 10 thousands and 100 millions.)
What the... how comes Goku's power increases over 30 fold between his arrival at namek and his fight before Frieza? I thought he was at some point even weaker than Vegeta (without Kaioken), considering how Ginyu was beaten up so badly.
On September 23 2013 07:07 JustPassingBy wrote: What the... how comes Goku's power increases over 30 fold between his arrival at namek and his fight before Frieza? I thought he was at some point even weaker than Vegeta (without Kaioken), considering how Ginyu was beaten up so badly.
All Saiyans get a crazy power up after being close to death or something.
On September 23 2013 07:07 JustPassingBy wrote: What the... how comes Goku's power increases over 30 fold between his arrival at namek and his fight before Frieza? I thought he was at some point even weaker than Vegeta (without Kaioken), considering how Ginyu was beaten up so badly.
1) Plot, and Zenkai (the most overabused mechanic in the Frieza Arc, which proceeded to be useless after that until Cell's revival) 2) He was, according to V-Jump. Ginyu in Goku's body is at 23,000. Goku in his own body (before body swap) is 90,000, but he can go as high as 900,000 with Kaioken x10. After his battle with Recoome and a Senzu Bean, Vegeta was listed by V-Jump as being at 250,000.
On September 23 2013 07:07 JustPassingBy wrote: What the... how comes Goku's power increases over 30 fold between his arrival at namek and his fight before Frieza? I thought he was at some point even weaker than Vegeta (without Kaioken), considering how Ginyu was beaten up so badly.
All Saiyans get a crazy power up after being close to death or something.
On September 23 2013 07:07 JustPassingBy wrote: What the... how comes Goku's power increases over 30 fold between his arrival at namek and his fight before Frieza? I thought he was at some point even weaker than Vegeta (without Kaioken), considering how Ginyu was beaten up so badly.
1) Plot, and Zenkai (the most overabused mechanic in the Frieza Arc, which proceeded to be useless after that until Cell's revival) 2) He was, according to V-Jump. Ginyu in Goku's body is at 23,000. Goku in his own body (before body swap) is 90,000, but he can go as high as 900,000 with Kaioken x10. After his battle with Recoome and a Senzu Bean, Vegeta was listed by V-Jump as being at 250,000.
On September 23 2013 07:07 JustPassingBy wrote: What the... how comes Goku's power increases over 30 fold between his arrival at namek and his fight before Frieza? I thought he was at some point even weaker than Vegeta (without Kaioken), considering how Ginyu was beaten up so badly.
All Saiyans get a crazy power up after being close to death or something.
Someone deserves a Senzu Bean! ^
Still hate you, because now I have the urge the rewatch all of it... again.
The power levels kind of gets out of hand during the Namek Saga, where everyone is in the mid ten-thousands 30-100k, with Goku being the highest, then random shit happens and suddenly everyone's power levels are in the millions. Like wtf?
For example:
Before: Gohan: -about 1,500 upon arrival -14,000 after Guru unlocks potential
Vegeta: -upon arrival: 24,000 -after Zarbon: ~30,000 -After fighting Recoome: 250,000 (according to V-Jump, which I guess is considered a good source) <-- WTF??? almost 10x his power after one fight?
When Freiza actually gets off his ass and fights:
Vegeta: over 2,000,000 (2,400,000 is a good approximation) Gohan: probably close to 1,000,000 when he's really mad
How does Vegeta 10x his power with just a single "near-death" experience and Gohan 100x his power even after his potential is unlocked just because hes mad? LOL
I can't believe the Over 9000 meme was a mistranslation x.x
And the higher amounts are absurd... I mean, I assume the mathematics is correct behind it... but jumping from millions and billions in a single (Fusion) saga to sextillions... it's just so... unnecessary lol
Anyways, it's cool to see the numbers behind the power levels. I watched the show religiously and several times through, but I hadn't thought about this stuff before.
On September 23 2013 07:21 MooMooMugi wrote: The power levels kind of gets out of hand during the Namek Saga, where everyone is in the mid ten-thousands 30-100k, with Goku being the highest, then random shit happens and suddenly everyone's power levels are in the millions. Like wtf?
Yeah. I know. You aren't the one who's trying to make a WC3 mod following all the DBZ power levels as closely as possible. With this, I just found out it's impossible! I have to represent numbers from 400 to 20+ trillion using signed intergers, which means the biggest base number I can use is just over 2 billion (2^31)...
I thought that the Saiyan + Frieza saga had a subplot involving proving that power levels are meaningless.
The only time after that that power levels came back into the picture was when they were trying to paint Babidi as antiquated and as someone who is no longer a true threat to anyone. That also showed the inadequacy of power levels.
On September 23 2013 07:21 MooMooMugi wrote: The power levels kind of gets out of hand during the Namek Saga, where everyone is in the mid ten-thousands 30-100k, with Goku being the highest, then random shit happens and suddenly everyone's power levels are in the millions. Like wtf?
For example:
Before: Gohan: -about 1,500 upon arrival -14,000 after Guru unlocks potential
Vegeta: -upon arrival: 24,000 -after Zarbon: ~30,000 -After fighting Recoome: 250,000 (according to V-Jump, which I guess is considered a good source) <-- WTF??? almost 10x his power after one fight?
When Freiza actually gets off his ass and fights:
Vegeta: over 2,000,000 (2,400,000 is a good approximation) Gohan: probably close to 1,000,000 when he's really mad
How does Vegeta 10x his power with just a single "near-death" experience and Gohan 100x his power even after his potential is unlocked just because hes mad? LOL
Plot man... It's a pretty powerful motivator. Keep in mind, AT drew the story without any serious consideration to the numbers behind the fights. If he did, he wouldn't have created the amazing story he did.
For the Vegeta one, it was posted by V-Jump. Not my most preferred source, so I put the note next to it as a disclaimer. For the second Vegeta one, Piccolo was well into the million zone, and couldn't see Frieza's death beam. Vegeta saw it clearly AND moved fast enough to save someone's ass from it. Fact is, Vegeta's strength was at least in the 2 millions when Frieza was at the 3 or 4 million mark (which is why Vegeta still gets his ass handed to him).
Also, for the Gohan one, even if temporarily, he DID keep down Frieza for a bit, who was over 1 million at the time, and did a bit of damage (nothing too significant). That's why I say close to 1 million, though it's likely under 1 million. Maybe I should've made it clearer, though depending on when during the fight it was, it could actually be over 1 million. Gohan had an absurd amount of potential in him if you kept up with the story, so the number isn't all that surprising.
On September 23 2013 07:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: I can't believe the Over 9000 meme was a mistranslation x.x
And the higher amounts are absurd... I mean, I assume the mathematics is correct behind it... but jumping from millions and billions in a single (Fusion) saga to sextillions... it's just so... unnecessary lol
Anyways, it's cool to see the numbers behind the power levels. I watched the show religiously and several times through, but I hadn't thought about this stuff before.
That's why I included the more reasonable one cause C is a constant that essentially determines the strength of the fusion. Vegito was probably the most overkill character ever created. Though I'll stick to my Sexy Sextillions Vegito, cause it gives a stronger platform from which to say "mathematically, it's hard to deny that Vegito>Billis".
On September 23 2013 07:26 LegalLord wrote: I thought that the Saiyan + Frieza saga had a subplot involving proving that power levels are meaningless.
The only time after that that power levels came back into the picture was when they were trying to paint Babidi as antiquated and as someone who is no longer a true threat to anyone. That also showed the inadequacy of power levels.
I believe Akira Toriyama has said something to this effect as well. I'm going to look it up now.
I'm a huge fan, by the way, I have all of the DB manga and DBZ on DVD. I don't follow the un-canon stuff like GT or the DBZ movies (except the TV specials done by Toriyama).
The entire debate is based on an assumption that power levels need to increase relative to each other on a percentage scale. Where 10000 is a huge gap in the beginning its nothing later because of the huge numbers. As much as i love dragonball it just seems that getting a list of hypothetical numbers based on arbitrary assumptions does not a good debate make.
On September 23 2013 07:26 LegalLord wrote: I thought that the Saiyan + Frieza saga had a subplot involving proving that power levels are meaningless.
The only time after that that power levels came back into the picture was when they were trying to paint Babidi as antiquated and as someone who is no longer a true threat to anyone. That also showed the inadequacy of power levels.
Yeah, for the most part (aside from Goku vs Frieza), the numbers are pretty meaningless. But I mean, they're fun to make (a headache to make sense of if you're trying to make a list), and it helps conceptualize how strong a character is compared to another. For example, we know Gotenks>>>>>>>>Goku=Majin Vegeta, but how big of a difference is it? When we do the math, it's by a factor of 150-200x stronger. Which makes you realize how useless Goku and Vegeta were in the story until they fused and turned Super Buu back into Kid Buu.
On September 23 2013 07:37 Gulf wrote: The entire debate is based on an assumption that power levels need to increase relative to each other on a percentage scale. Where 10000 is a huge gap in the beginning its nothing later because of the huge numbers. As much as i love dragonball it just seems that getting a list of hypothetical numbers based on arbitrary assumptions does not a good debate make.
When a 10,000 gap was a large margin was when 10,000 meant a difference in strength of 33% or more (something along those lines). The percentage differences are more or less still there (except for how Vegeta man-handled Dodoria... That one's written in stone and I can't for the life of me explain it other than Dodoria was panicking too much to properly defend himself). Vegeta held a 33% increase in power over Kui, so that's easily explainable, but... Dodoria was short 2,000, which was less than 10% for both of them, and still got wrecked. Guess it means staying calm is always the right way to go? Who knows...
When numbers get big (as they did with SS Goku vs Frieza, and again after HBTC/RoSaT), you toss out the little numbers for approximation. What difference does 1,000 make when you're working in the 100 millions? It accounts for a thousandth of a percent! Pennies and dimes to them man. Unless you have an entire jar or stack of them (like using a Spirit Bomb), they're pretty useless, just spare change.
It's really interesting and makes sense more or less. It's pretty cool to note how it's mathed out base Goku is 70-100mil in the latest movie, since when Billis saw Goku before transforming at all that he found it doubtful that he beat Frieza.
On September 23 2013 07:48 Bippzy wrote: So is super saiyan god considered part of DBZ while ss4 is not?
Yes because Akira Toriyama made/was a huge part in that movie, while he never acknowledged or touched DBGT.
On September 23 2013 07:50 HeartOfTheSwarm wrote: I don't accept any of this. Super hero Gohan is the strongest! Nuff' said.
Great Saiyaman?
Also interesting to know that GT is just made up to milk cash out of DBZ and is not cannon. It just seems like the concept of super saiyan god is very similar to ss4.
Also excluding ssgod, as a single character gohan is definitely the strongest(I'm biased he is my favorite character)
On September 23 2013 07:21 MooMooMugi wrote: The power levels kind of gets out of hand during the Namek Saga, where everyone is in the mid ten-thousands 30-100k, with Goku being the highest, then random shit happens and suddenly everyone's power levels are in the millions. Like wtf?
For example:
Before: Gohan: -about 1,500 upon arrival -14,000 after Guru unlocks potential
Vegeta: -upon arrival: 24,000 -after Zarbon: ~30,000 -After fighting Recoome: 250,000 (according to V-Jump, which I guess is considered a good source) <-- WTF??? almost 10x his power after one fight?
When Freiza actually gets off his ass and fights:
Vegeta: over 2,000,000 (2,400,000 is a good approximation) Gohan: probably close to 1,000,000 when he's really mad
How does Vegeta 10x his power with just a single "near-death" experience and Gohan 100x his power even after his potential is unlocked just because hes mad? LOL
there's no logic bro its DBZ, they're sayians they get stronger where they nearly die. Gohan is the golden boy with HIDDEN power.
On September 23 2013 05:20 Pretty Aluminum wrote: ssj 3 goku is by far the strongest at the end of dbz. Anyone who claims Mystic gohan is stronger is instantly stupid.
Except Mystic Gohan tore apart Super buu and held his own against Super buu+sjj3 gotenks+Piccolo, and Goku was just marginally stronger in sjj3 than kid buu--- who was mentioned to be numerous times, weaker though more threatening [for indiscernible reasons] than super buu.
This is why covering all the stats is pointless. Its fiction and as a result simply falls apart from plot holes, misstatements and forgetfulness. For example, Piccolo is referred to be as 'strong as a super sayan' during the android saga before he fused with the old fart. Yet, for him to have covered the distance between what he was, and some base largely untrained super sayan, is astronomical. It would mean that Piccolo for no reason whatsoever suddenly started training and gaining hundreds of thousands of ki daily, whereas Goku and the other Sayans, in base form, were drastically slower. Or else they'd of been triple his strength, something directly contradicted by evidence and stated fact.
As someone earlier in this thread mentioned: I also don't quite get the power and speed scaling. Pretty much in the beginning Vegeta just wipes a whole planet from the universe without any effort (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnqtg0bte6w). At the end of the series every little energy attack should at least kill the earth, if not the whole solar system outright, but it doens't for some reason. Another example: on Namek a full power punch causes people to fly hundrets of meters through solid rock, so later on they should go through the whole earth at least. Same with speed, on Namek speed seems to be the highest throughout the entire series.
Aside from that, how does full power Gohan lose all of his power and becomes so weak again? And why could he become so strong in the first place? Is the human/saiyajinmix better then pure saiyans after all, or what is the requirement that a Kai can make someone that strong? Wouldn't it be a good idea to get Goku those powers aswell?
And @RyLai: I don't get the Potora fusion formula: Vegito with C=1 gets 3.3 quintillion base Vegito with C = 100,000) gets 33 trillion base, jet the formula is C(AxB), so with higher C the numbers should be higher. Or should the formula be (AxB) / C (or just C be a number between 0 and 1)? Aside from that , shouldn't 55 millionen * 60 million be be 3,3*e^15, so Vegito's base strength should be quadrillion, not quintillion?
I don't think that power levels are bullshit, but rather that the official power levels are bullshit (starting Namek).
I like to believe that Goku's natural power level at most 25k as he arrived on Namek, and that he could only fight the Ginyu squad they way he did due to the Kaioken. That explains why Ginyu was unable to mobilize a greater power than 23k while he was in Goku's (a little bit exhausted) body.
Even though apparently the doubling of powerlevel was a misstranslation, I'd say that Frieza's power level was around 0.53m/1.1m/2.5m/5.5m. His final form's natural powerlevel definitely not exceeding 6m.
When Goku recovered, he shouldn't have had more than 50k, which means he shouldn't have more than 600k fighting Frieza with a Kx10. But that is okay, since when Frieza was fighting casually, say at most 20% (1.1m), he was still so outmatched that Frieza wanted to fight without both hands to make it more interesting for him.
edit: I'm sure if you continue with these values you won't reach absurd values in the quintillion and such.
On September 23 2013 05:20 Pretty Aluminum wrote: ssj 3 goku is by far the strongest at the end of dbz. Anyone who claims Mystic gohan is stronger is instantly stupid.
haha except that SSJ3 was = to buu where gohan smashed his face
Pretty much
Mystic Gohan is all of Gohan's unlocked potential.... which Goku even states that Human/Saiyan hybrids have more than pure Saiyans.
Mystic Gohan is the strongest unfused character from the canon manga
Plus, if you look at the fights between the characters:
Vegito > Super Buu "4" (Mystic Gohan, Trunks, Goten, Piccolo) > Super Buu "3" (fused Gotenks & Piccolo) > Mystic Gohan > Super Buu "2" (unfused Gotenks & Piccolo) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Buff Buu (Kid Buu + South Kaioushin) > Super Buu > SJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku (dead) > SSJ 3 Goku (alive) > Kid Buu = Evil Buu > Fat Buu (Buff Buu + Dai Kaioushin) > Mr. Buu
Plus, if you look at the fights between the characters:
Vegito > Super Buu "4" (Mystic Gohan, Trunks, Goten, Piccolo) > Super Buu "3" (fused Gotenks & Piccolo) > Mystic Gohan > Super Buu "2" (unfused Gotenks & Piccolo) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Buff Buu (Kid Buu + South Kaioushin) > Super Buu > SJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku (dead) > SSJ 3 Goku (alive) > Kid Buu = Evil Buu > Fat Buu (Buff Buu + Dai Kaioushin) > Mr. Buu
Anyway... this takes me back, lol
lol, this just shows what a bullshit the buu saga actually was. in fact, it was one single fight against buu for like 100 episodes. probably the most ridiculous and drawn out fight in any anime or manga ever.
but i have one question: if i remember correctly, mystic gohan once turned ssj at the kai world, but never used his ssj form in his fight against buu. do we have any estimate how strong he would have been in ssj form?
Plus, if you look at the fights between the characters:
Vegito > Super Buu "4" (Mystic Gohan, Trunks, Goten, Piccolo) > Super Buu "3" (fused Gotenks & Piccolo) > Mystic Gohan > Super Buu "2" (unfused Gotenks & Piccolo) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Buff Buu (Kid Buu + South Kaioushin) > Super Buu > SJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku (dead) > SSJ 3 Goku (alive) > Kid Buu = Evil Buu > Fat Buu (Buff Buu + Dai Kaioushin) > Mr. Buu
Anyway... this takes me back, lol
lol, this just shows what a bullshit the buu saga actually was. in fact, it was one single fight against buu for like 100 episodes. probably the most ridiculous and drawn out fight in any anime or manga ever.
but i have one question: if i remember correctly, mystic gohan once turned ssj at the kai world, but never used his ssj form in his fight against buu. do we have any estimate how strong he would have been in ssj form?
I didn't watch the anime... just read the manga.
It's ironic because after all of that it was just Kid Buu and SSJ3 Goku at the end who were some of the weakest characters in that arc.
I do not recall Mystic Gohan going SSJ though it's been a while since I read it.
Mystic Gohan is all of Gohan's potential. So if he went SSJ in Mystic form it wouldn't do anything because he can't power up... no potential left to unlock.
On September 23 2013 08:31 CruelZeratul wrote: As someone earlier in this thread mentioned: I also don't quite get the power and speed scaling. Pretty much in the beginning Vegeta just wipes a whole planet from the universe without any effort (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnqtg0bte6w). At the end of the series every little energy attack should at least kill the earth, if not the whole solar system outright, but it doens't for some reason. Another example: on Namek a full power punch causes people to fly hundrets of meters through solid rock, so later on they should go through the whole earth at least. Same with speed, on Namek speed seems to be the highest throughout the entire series.
Aside from that, how does full power Gohan lose all of his power and becomes so weak again? And why could he become so strong in the first place? Is the human/saiyajinmix better then pure saiyans after all, or what is the requirement that a Kai can make someone that strong? Wouldn't it be a good idea to get Goku those powers aswell?
And @RyLai: I don't get the Potora fusion formula: Vegito with C=1 gets 3.3 quintillion base Vegito with C = 100,000) gets 33 trillion base, jet the formula is C(AxB), so with higher C the numbers should be higher. Or should the formula be (AxB) / C (or just C be a number between 0 and 1)? Aside from that , shouldn't 55 millionen * 60 million be be 3,3*e^15, so Vegito's base strength should be quadrillion, not quintillion?
Good catch. I messed that up on the Potara Fusion formula! Thanks!
Gohan loses his power because 1) his power is largely linked with his emotions, and 2) he stops training. I just go off the fact that Vegeta calls Gohan pitiful and never stops nagging the fact that he was stronger when he fought Cell. Gohan was a relative joke compared to the other 2 at the time though, but I guess that's what happens when you fall below the benchmark and everyone rises above it.
Vegeta blowing up a planet was in the anime (so technically non-cannon). He could probably do it though, if he aimed for the core. Off-core shots require more power level to blow up (minimum of 300 million according to the scale I threw up, 300 kilis for a definitive number).
On September 23 2013 08:33 Olinimmm wrote: Disagree with your base saiyan numbers for Buu Saga. 60 mil is way too low, no way they are half as strong as Frieza.
Here's my rebuttal: Billis sizes up Goku and says "I don't believe you could've beaten Frieza. That must mean going Super Saiyan powers you up". Goku in base form (post Buu saga) isn't comparable in battle to Frieza. This movie is considered cannon because apparently AT had a lot to do with it, and it makes my list more accurate, and it gives us a good range of power levels to go by, instead of simply stating Goku's base power level is infinity to the power of 20 million because there's nothing to refute it.
On September 23 2013 08:39 JustPassingBy wrote: I don't think that power levels are bullshit, but rather that the official power levels are bullshit (starting Namek).
I like to believe that Goku's natural power level at most 25k as he arrived on Namek, and that he could only fight the Ginyu squad they way he did due to the Kaioken. That explains why Ginyu was unable to mobilize a greater power than 23k while he was in Goku's (a little bit exhausted) body.
Even though apparently the doubling of powerlevel was a misstranslation, I'd say that Frieza's power level was around 0.53m/1.1m/2.5m/5.5m. His final form's natural powerlevel definitely not exceeding 6m.
When Goku recovered, he shouldn't have had more than 50k, which means he shouldn't have more than 600k fighting Frieza with a Kx10. But that is okay, since when Frieza was fighting casually, say at most 20% (1.1m), he was still so outmatched that Frieza wanted to fight without both hands to make it more interesting for him.
edit: I'm sure if you continue with these values you won't reach absurd values in the quintillion and such.
I'd probably hit a quadrillion still, but the fact is, the numbers I put up for anything during the Frieza Saga isn't disputable unless I list uncertainty or a note next to it. Frieza WAS at 120 million at full power, and Goku WAS at 3 million base with 150 million as a Super Saiyan. I'd LOVE for the numbers to end up smaller, but it won't happen unless I cheat the system some way (main reason being the Potara multiplication system and the fact that someone stronger than SS2 is a base level saiyan).
On September 23 2013 05:20 Pretty Aluminum wrote: ssj 3 goku is by far the strongest at the end of dbz. Anyone who claims Mystic gohan is stronger is instantly stupid.
haha except that SSJ3 was = to buu where gohan smashed his face
Pretty much
Mystic Gohan is all of Gohan's unlocked potential.... which Goku even states that Human/Saiyan hybrids have more than pure Saiyans.
Mystic Gohan is the strongest unfused character from the canon manga
Plus, if you look at the fights between the characters:
Vegito > Super Buu "4" (Mystic Gohan, Trunks, Goten, Piccolo) > Super Buu "3" (fused Gotenks & Piccolo) > Mystic Gohan > Super Buu "2" (unfused Gotenks & Piccolo) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Buff Buu (Kid Buu + South Kaioushin) > Super Buu > SJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku (dead) > SSJ 3 Goku (alive) > Kid Buu = Evil Buu > Fat Buu (Buff Buu + Dai Kaioushin) > Mr. Buu
Anyway... this takes me back, lol
Was gonna say, "No way in hell SS Gotenks>SS3 Goku!", then forgot I JUST did the fucking math, and SS Gotenks (pre and post HBTC/RoSaT) DESTROYS SS3 Goku, and it's not even close. The difference is so fucking huge, I could MEASURE Gotenks, Ultimate Gohan, and the various forms of Super Buu IN SS3 GOKUS! I was talking to my friend, and that's literally what I did! I measured those characters in SS3 Gokus! Because SS3 Goku in terms of power literally became THAT irrelevant! T.T
Plus, if you look at the fights between the characters:
Vegito > Super Buu "4" (Mystic Gohan, Trunks, Goten, Piccolo) > Super Buu "3" (fused Gotenks & Piccolo) > Mystic Gohan > Super Buu "2" (unfused Gotenks & Piccolo) > SSJ3 Gotenks > Buff Buu (Kid Buu + South Kaioushin) > Super Buu > SJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku (dead) > SSJ 3 Goku (alive) > Kid Buu = Evil Buu > Fat Buu (Buff Buu + Dai Kaioushin) > Mr. Buu
Anyway... this takes me back, lol
lol, this just shows what a bullshit the buu saga actually was. in fact, it was one single fight against buu for like 100 episodes. probably the most ridiculous and drawn out fight in any anime or manga ever.
but i have one question: if i remember correctly, mystic gohan once turned ssj at the kai world, but never used his ssj form in his fight against buu. do we have any estimate how strong he would have been in ssj form?
I didn't watch the anime... just read the manga.
It's ironic because after all of that it was just Kid Buu and SSJ3 Goku at the end who were some of the weakest characters in that arc.
I do not recall Mystic Gohan going SSJ though it's been a while since I read it.
Mystic Gohan is all of Gohan's potential. So if he went SSJ in Mystic form it wouldn't do anything because he can't power up... no potential left to unlock.
Ultimate Gohan never went SS except in GT (NON-CANNON~~~~~~~~~). Going SS is basically the way to unlock the mystic potential. But there's no actual SS transformation.
And yeah, it is ironic that the last 2 fighters (one of which dominated another well known fighter in Vegeta) were so insignificant, you could measure the powers of other characters using the last 2 fighters. Seriously, they're like 1 dollar bills to the other guys. Got change for a $100 IN ONES?!
On September 23 2013 09:35 Wampaibist wrote: It'd be fun to do fighting capabilities power too lol (knowingly impossible task)
For example trunks powered up more than vegeta, during the cell games, but cell explained that his speed went down and was therefore much weaker.
This is actually very simple. Calculate the relative durabilities of each form, multiply it by damage capability, and multiply by damage efficiency. Obviously, USS would be the only thing with less than 1 for efficiency, since it's the only thing with an actual downside. ASS, USS, Fusion, SS3 Fusion, and SS4 fusion have durability issues, so you'd need a definitive margin of victory such that you will win before your advantage runs out (I'd say 80% should suffice, since Goku vs Frieza didn't actually last more than 5 minutes real time right? Didn't Frieza hit the core and say the planet would blow in 5 or 10 minutes?). I'd say USS probably has a .5 battle efficiency, at best. Otherwise, the power levels will basically tell you who wins the fight. As for regenerating, think of it this way: they need to use energy to regenerate, that is energy they are not using to damage their opponent. Except in the case of the androids, higher power level should mean that person will win unless they have durability or efficiency issues, in which case they need to win by a larger margin in order to actually win.
On September 23 2013 05:20 Pretty Aluminum wrote: ssj 3 goku is by far the strongest at the end of dbz. Anyone who claims Mystic gohan is stronger is instantly stupid.
Except Mystic Gohan tore apart Super buu and held his own against Super buu+sjj3 gotenks+Piccolo, and Goku was just marginally stronger in sjj3 than kid buu--- who was mentioned to be numerous times, weaker though more threatening [for indiscernible reasons] than super buu.
This is why covering all the stats is pointless. Its fiction and as a result simply falls apart from plot holes, misstatements and forgetfulness. For example, Piccolo is referred to be as 'strong as a super sayan' during the android saga before he fused with the old fart. Yet, for him to have covered the distance between what he was, and some base largely untrained super sayan, is astronomical. It would mean that Piccolo for no reason whatsoever suddenly started training and gaining hundreds of thousands of ki daily, whereas Goku and the other Sayans, in base form, were drastically slower. Or else they'd of been triple his strength, something directly contradicted by evidence and stated fact.
Maybe Piccolo's training was just straight up more efficient and could only be done by warrior-type Namekians? (Or in Piccolo's case, the most talented Namekian of some super strong clan.)
I mean, Piccolo is still significantly stronger than any base Saiyan except Gotenks (who is supposed to be stronger than a SS2 in base form), but he doesn't compare to any of the top 3 in Super Saiyan form after the Cell Saga (I can't put Piccolo as being anywhere near Perfect Cell, though I can easily put him above Kaioshin because Kami's unease and respect held Piccolo back from using his full abilities).
On September 23 2013 10:59 Maxd11 wrote: Why are all these characters fighting anyway?
because thats what the show was all about. i mean... i vaguely remember that it initially wasnt all about fighting, but cant remember exactly. something with balls and dragons... who knows..
Maybe Piccolo's training was just straight up more efficient and could only be done by warrior-type Namekians? (Or in Piccolo's case, the most talented Namekian of some super strong clan.)
I mean, Piccolo is still significantly stronger than any base Saiyan except Gotenks (who is supposed to be stronger than a SS2 in base form), but he doesn't compare to any of the top 3 in Super Saiyan form after the Cell Saga (I can't put Piccolo as being anywhere near Perfect Cell, though I can easily put him above Kaioshin because Kami's unease and respect held Piccolo back from using his full abilities).
After the cell saga the show becomes retarded, and they raped Piccolo's character. But just to focus on the main point: Why in the hell would Piccolo's method be so much more effiecient? And why wasnt it before the advent of ssj? For example. Goku was stronger than Piccolo before he went SSJ. But for the show to make sense, Piccolo simply out trained every single sayan and surpassed their base power by a drastic margin, from a huge deficit, from the freiza to the android saga. Maybe he even retains that for a while after, we dont really know and things become murky. But that kinda of dramatic increase is just a huge plot hole. Goku would of just copied what Piccolo was doing if it was so much better [he surely would share it, they train to protect the planet afterall]. And, more importantly, Sayans are meant to be a 'warrior race', Piccolo's basically a plant. So again, why can he totally totally TOTALLY out pace base sayans in training? Its ridiculous.
[B] Here's my rebuttal: Billis sizes up Goku and says "I don't believe you could've beaten Frieza. That must mean going Super Saiyan powers you up". Goku in base form (post Buu saga) isn't comparable in battle to Frieza. This movie is considered cannon because apparently AT had a lot to do with it, and it makes my list more accurate, and it gives us a good range of power levels to go by, instead of simply stating Goku's base power level is infinity to the power of 20 million because there's nothing to refute it.
I know about the line from BoG, but in my opinion Goku was suppressed. There's simply too much in the original manga that supports base saiyans>>>>>frieza that it's the only conclusion to make. There's 4 examples I have in mind to prove it. 1. Goten and trunks vs 18. Goten and trunks fight close to evenly with 18 even with the might mask costume on, if they were weaker than Frieza then 18 could oneshot them. 2. All the saiyans agree on the no super saiyan rule for the tournament, they know that Piccolo is coming, and yet still expect to win. If they were weaker than Frieza then they would have no hope of defeating Piccolo in base. Also, Supreme Kai> Piccolo and yet Supreme kai was absolutely awestruck at the abilities of the Base saiyans 3. Supreme kai can oneshot Frieza, but he was pissing his pants at the thought of fighting Yakon, who base Goku was near equal if not stronger than. 4. If you're going to count Battle of Gods as canon you might as well count YO son goku and his friends return. In the movie, Tarble states that Abo and Cado have become equal to Frieza, Goku states that he was not much of an opponent in hindsight and says they would be a good match for the boys. Goten and Trunks proceed to fight them equally in base. All this is much more than 1 statement that can easily be attributed to Goku being suppressed, which happened in YO son goku as well.
On September 23 2013 06:45 crazyweasel wrote: wow this thread . numbers really, even in the manga and anime POWER LEVEL becomes an obsolete concept (at the moment they stop using scouter, they don't keep track of it all they sense is khi/chi w/e u wanna call it)? number are so vague you could simply make a kind of ladder to translate their power level or Chi size.
Goku isn't the strongest. He becomes so insignificant that you can measure the strongest characters and their multiple forms in SS3 Gokus! (Except maybe Vegito... You might have to measure him in Buuhans if you don't use a C smaller than 1...)
Maybe Piccolo's training was just straight up more efficient and could only be done by warrior-type Namekians? (Or in Piccolo's case, the most talented Namekian of some super strong clan.)
I mean, Piccolo is still significantly stronger than any base Saiyan except Gotenks (who is supposed to be stronger than a SS2 in base form), but he doesn't compare to any of the top 3 in Super Saiyan form after the Cell Saga (I can't put Piccolo as being anywhere near Perfect Cell, though I can easily put him above Kaioshin because Kami's unease and respect held Piccolo back from using his full abilities).
After the cell saga the show becomes retarded, and they raped Piccolo's character. But just to focus on the main point: Why in the hell would Piccolo's method be so much more effiecient? And why wasnt it before the advent of ssj? For example. Goku was stronger than Piccolo before he went SSJ. But for the show to make sense, Piccolo simply out trained every single sayan and surpassed their base power by a drastic margin, from a huge deficit, from the freiza to the android saga. Maybe he even retains that for a while after, we dont really know and things become murky. But that kinda of dramatic increase is just a huge plot hole. Goku would of just copied what Piccolo was doing if it was so much better [he surely would share it, they train to protect the planet afterall]. And, more importantly, Sayans are meant to be a 'warrior race', Piccolo's basically a plant. So again, why can he totally totally TOTALLY out pace base sayans in training? Its ridiculous.
1) Now you know why the Buu Saga is the least liked saga for hardcore DBZ fans. 2) Piccolo uses the split technique (whatever it's called). So he can constantly train with someone of equal strength, and probably reap twice the benefits (that second part is a guess, probably not true). The Saiyans NEVER train with each other with the exception of Goku and Gohan, who for that period have shown the greatest growth rate in all of DBZ aside from anyone named Piccolo. And Goku started off training Gohan to basically be as strong as him. So now it doesn't seem as awkward for Piccolo to have more efficient training methods now does it? 3) Piccolo would likely not share his training methods with Goku if he can avoid it. His goal is STILL to be the strongest of them all, even if world domination is still no longer part of his aims. But the fact is, even if he told Goku to use the split form technique, would Goku do it? No, cause he can't!
[B] Here's my rebuttal: Billis sizes up Goku and says "I don't believe you could've beaten Frieza. That must mean going Super Saiyan powers you up". Goku in base form (post Buu saga) isn't comparable in battle to Frieza. This movie is considered cannon because apparently AT had a lot to do with it, and it makes my list more accurate, and it gives us a good range of power levels to go by, instead of simply stating Goku's base power level is infinity to the power of 20 million because there's nothing to refute it.
I know about the line from BoG, but in my opinion Goku was suppressed. There's simply too much in the original manga that supports base saiyans>>>>>frieza that it's the only conclusion to make. There's 4 examples I have in mind to prove it. 1. Goten and trunks vs 18. Goten and trunks fight close to evenly with 18 even with the might mask costume on, if they were weaker than Frieza then 18 could oneshot them. 2. All the saiyans agree on the no super saiyan rule for the tournament, they know that Piccolo is coming, and yet still expect to win. If they were weaker than Frieza then they would have no hope of defeating Piccolo in base. 3. Supreme kai can oneshot Frieza, he was pissing his pants at the thought of fighting Yakon, who base Goku was near equal with. 4. If you're going to count Battle of Gods as canon you might as well count YO son goku and his friends return. In the movie, Tarble states that Abo and Cado have become equal to Frieza, Goku states that he was not much of an opponent in hindsight and says they would be a good match for the boys. Goten and Trunks proceed to fight them equally in base.
All this is much more than 1 statement that can easily be attributed to Goku being suppressed, which happened in YO son goku as well.
1) If 18 1-shots them, she might get disqualified for killing someone. Also, she didn't know it was Goten and Trunks until they turned Super Saiyan. They're very likely weaker than Frieza at that point if you do go by that Yo Son Goku special. I mean, when Trunks was in the gravity room with Vegeta doing 300g, he could barely move, which is roughly what Vegeta would've done when he first went crazy on the gravity training, so Trunks should be around that point, and probably a little less, which means less than 2.5 million. 2) Vegeta runs his mouth a lot. I also thought over this scenario quite a bit and chalked it down to either he didn't know Piccolo was competing or he just ran his mouth off (Gohan knows Piccolo is competing, and he talked to Piccolo AFTER talking to Trunks and Vegeta). However, he HAD to know 18 was competing, because she was in the plane with him. As a result, I just conclude that Vegeta was running his arrogant mouth without keeping it in check, as usual. Vegeta may be an intelligent fighter, but he's beyond cocky and sometimes forgets how strong his opponent is or how strong they could be. 3) Yakon is over 5x the strength of Frieza. To one-shot a guy, you just need to be around 2x their strength. Yakon can more than likely likely 1-shot Frieza as well. Also, base Goku is not on par with Yakon. It's likely Yakon was playing around with him, since he seems to be the type to play with his food when you take into consideration him eating Goku's light emissions in his SS form. 4) Battle of the Gods had a fairly heavy involvement from AT. AT designed the SS God look, and apparently fought vehemently for it according to DBZ wiki. I have no idea how much involvement the Goku and Friends special had from AT, but it is known that AT was fairly active in the making of the 14th movie. I'd expect a God of the caliber of Billis to at least be able to reasonably size up a surpressed Saiyan within reason. Ginyu did it, why not Billis?
Also, if you haven't noticed, Goku's favorite suppressed power level seems to be at 5,000. I think Billis would've been noticeably more shocked if Goku walked out to him showing off a combat ability of 5,000 (though I'd imagine Billis could probably see through at least some of it). If Trunks, in the millions range, could reduce his power level to 5, why can't Goku stick with his favorite number at 5,000? More than likely his base form is below 120 million.
Maybe Piccolo's training was just straight up more efficient and could only be done by warrior-type Namekians? (Or in Piccolo's case, the most talented Namekian of some super strong clan.)
I mean, Piccolo is still significantly stronger than any base Saiyan except Gotenks (who is supposed to be stronger than a SS2 in base form), but he doesn't compare to any of the top 3 in Super Saiyan form after the Cell Saga (I can't put Piccolo as being anywhere near Perfect Cell, though I can easily put him above Kaioshin because Kami's unease and respect held Piccolo back from using his full abilities).
After the cell saga the show becomes retarded, and they raped Piccolo's character. But just to focus on the main point: Why in the hell would Piccolo's method be so much more effiecient? And why wasnt it before the advent of ssj? For example. Goku was stronger than Piccolo before he went SSJ. But for the show to make sense, Piccolo simply out trained every single sayan and surpassed their base power by a drastic margin, from a huge deficit, from the freiza to the android saga. Maybe he even retains that for a while after, we dont really know and things become murky. But that kinda of dramatic increase is just a huge plot hole. Goku would of just copied what Piccolo was doing if it was so much better [he surely would share it, they train to protect the planet afterall]. And, more importantly, Sayans are meant to be a 'warrior race', Piccolo's basically a plant. So again, why can he totally totally TOTALLY out pace base sayans in training? Its ridiculous.
1) Now you know why the Buu Saga is the least liked saga for hardcore DBZ fans. 2) Piccolo uses the split technique (whatever it's called). So he can constantly train with someone of equal strength, and probably reap twice the benefits (that second part is a guess, probably not true). The Saiyans NEVER train with each other with the exception of Goku and Gohan, who for that period have shown the greatest growth rate in all of DBZ aside from anyone named Piccolo. And Goku started off training Gohan to basically be as strong as him. So now it doesn't seem as awkward for Piccolo to have more efficient training methods now does it? 3) Piccolo would likely not share his training methods with Goku if he can avoid it. His goal is STILL to be the strongest of them all, even if world domination is still no longer part of his aims. But the fact is, even if he told Goku to use the split form technique, would Goku do it? No, cause he can't!
[B] Here's my rebuttal: Billis sizes up Goku and says "I don't believe you could've beaten Frieza. That must mean going Super Saiyan powers you up". Goku in base form (post Buu saga) isn't comparable in battle to Frieza. This movie is considered cannon because apparently AT had a lot to do with it, and it makes my list more accurate, and it gives us a good range of power levels to go by, instead of simply stating Goku's base power level is infinity to the power of 20 million because there's nothing to refute it.
I know about the line from BoG, but in my opinion Goku was suppressed. There's simply too much in the original manga that supports base saiyans>>>>>frieza that it's the only conclusion to make. There's 4 examples I have in mind to prove it. 1. Goten and trunks vs 18. Goten and trunks fight close to evenly with 18 even with the might mask costume on, if they were weaker than Frieza then 18 could oneshot them. 2. All the saiyans agree on the no super saiyan rule for the tournament, they know that Piccolo is coming, and yet still expect to win. If they were weaker than Frieza then they would have no hope of defeating Piccolo in base. 3. Supreme kai can oneshot Frieza, he was pissing his pants at the thought of fighting Yakon, who base Goku was near equal with. 4. If you're going to count Battle of Gods as canon you might as well count YO son goku and his friends return. In the movie, Tarble states that Abo and Cado have become equal to Frieza, Goku states that he was not much of an opponent in hindsight and says they would be a good match for the boys. Goten and Trunks proceed to fight them equally in base.
All this is much more than 1 statement that can easily be attributed to Goku being suppressed, which happened in YO son goku as well.
1) If 18 1-shots them, she might get disqualified for killing someone. Also, she didn't know it was Goten and Trunks until they turned Super Saiyan. They're very likely weaker than Frieza at that point if you do go by that Yo Son Goku special. I mean, when Trunks was in the gravity room with Vegeta doing 300g, he could barely move, which is roughly what Vegeta would've done when he first went crazy on the gravity training, so Trunks should be around that point, and probably a little less, which means less than 2.5 million. 2) Vegeta runs his mouth a lot. I also thought over this scenario quite a bit and chalked it down to either he didn't know Piccolo was competing or he just ran his mouth off (Gohan knows Piccolo is competing, and he talked to Piccolo AFTER talking to Trunks and Vegeta). However, he HAD to know 18 was competing, because she was in the plane with him. As a result, I just conclude that Vegeta was running his arrogant mouth without keeping it in check, as usual. Vegeta may be an intelligent fighter, but he's beyond cocky and sometimes forgets how strong his opponent is or how strong they could be. 3) Yakon is over 5x the strength of Frieza. To one-shot a guy, you just need to be around 2x their strength. Yakon can more than likely likely 1-shot Frieza as well. Also, base Goku is not on par with Yakon. It's likely Yakon was playing around with him, since he seems to be the type to play with his food when you take into consideration him eating Goku's light emissions in his SS form. 4) Battle of the Gods had a fairly heavy involvement from AT. AT designed the SS God look, and apparently fought vehemently for it according to DBZ wiki. I have no idea how much involvement the Goku and Friends special had from AT, but it is known that AT was fairly active in the making of the 14th movie. I'd expect a God of the caliber of Billis to at least be able to reasonably size up a surpressed Saiyan within reason. Ginyu did it, why not Billis?
1. Gravity levels are inconsistent to power levels. Also I believe they were in 150g but even if it was 300g that means it was just 3 times what Namek saga Goku(90,000) was doing. That means Trunks would only be at 270,000. Which means even his super saiyan would be weaker than Frieza, which is absolutely impossible. Also, Ssj trunks landed a punch on Ssj vegeta, if he was 2.5 mil then vegeta is like 25 times stronger than him by your numbers so how did that happen? 2. This is really just a cop out I mean seriously. Vegeta got his ass kicked by 18 as a super saiyan, if hes at 55 mil there is no way in hell he's gonna expect to beat her. I mean there's being arrogant and then there's being flat out delusional. Besides, Gohan invited Piccolo and didnt expect to lose to him either, are you saying both Vegeta and Gohan are that delusional? 3. I don't agree, looking at the fight Goku doesn't seem to be in any trouble in base form, and even after Babidi transports them to yakon's homeworld, Goku dodges his attack and kicks him in the face, Yakon looks stunned. If you're gonna claim that he was suppressed/holding back, I can just say the same thing about Base goku in BOG. 4.Ginyu didn't accurately guess Goku's power, he guessed 60k, and he only guessed that not because of sensing him, but by the fact that Goku owned the Ginyu Force. If Bills saw Base Gokus feats he would guess higher as well.
Honestly the whole Buu saga basically shoves in our face that Frieza is a joke, even to the dork that is Supreme Kai. So yeah other than that though even for how weak you have Base saiyans, the kids are still way too low. Gohan was impressed by Goten's power and was worried that he might be surpassed. SSj trunks landed a hit on vegeta.
On September 23 2013 05:20 Pretty Aluminum wrote: ssj 3 goku is by far the strongest at the end of dbz. Anyone who claims Mystic gohan is stronger is instantly stupid.
Except Mystic Gohan tore apart Super buu and held his own against Super buu+sjj3 gotenks+Piccolo, and Goku was just marginally stronger in sjj3 than kid buu--- who was mentioned to be numerous times, weaker though more threatening [for indiscernible reasons] than super buu.
Kid Buu is more threatening than Super Buu because he's interested in nothing but destroying everything in existance. Super Buu talks to people, plays with them, seeks to absorb others in order to boost his power over simply killing them because he desires more strength than he already possesses. Kid Buu, on the other hand? The moment he completes his transformation, he destroys the planet that he stands on with no warning. He doesn't sit around chatting, he doesn't try to fight his foes head-on or absorb their powers, he just goes straight for totally annihilating everything in sight by the most brutally efficient method possible.
It's all Freiza's fault for getting all the power levels super-inflated. When he was fighting Goku, he said "I'm only using 1% of my power" (or did that get mis-translated in the dub?) At that point, he was already at >1 million, which sets the baseline SSJ Goku to be 100 million.
If Ultimate Gohan was so strong, why couldn't he (or even Gotenks for that matter) have fought Kid Buu at the end instead of Goku/Vegeta?
On September 23 2013 12:34 B1nary wrote: It's all Freiza's fault for getting all the power levels super-inflated. When he was fighting Goku, he said "I'm only using 1% of my power" (or did that get mis-translated in the dub?) At that point, he was already at >1 million, which sets the baseline SSJ Goku to be 100 million.
If Ultimate Gohan was so strong, why couldn't he (or even Gotenks for that matter) have fought Kid Buu at the end instead of Goku/Vegeta?
By the time they were revived Goku was already in the middle of the fight, and Kibito Kai ran out of energy to use instant transmission. Vegeta also might not have wanted to risk those incompetents getting absorbed again.
On September 23 2013 12:34 B1nary wrote: It's all Freiza's fault for getting all the power levels super-inflated. When he was fighting Goku, he said "I'm only using 1% of my power" (or did that get mis-translated in the dub?) At that point, he was already at >1 million, which sets the baseline SSJ Goku to be 100 million.
If Ultimate Gohan was so strong, why couldn't he (or even Gotenks for that matter) have fought Kid Buu at the end instead of Goku/Vegeta?
Freiza was pretty bad with math so I wouldnt trust him/her. I mean he/she some how predicted that Namek destruction in 5min = 50 episode.
Thanks for providing the stream link for the battle of the gods movie, completely forgot about that for a while, was looking for a stream to watch it like 5 months ago.
On September 23 2013 12:34 B1nary wrote: It's all Freiza's fault for getting all the power levels super-inflated. When he was fighting Goku, he said "I'm only using 1% of my power" (or did that get mis-translated in the dub?) At that point, he was already at >1 million, which sets the baseline SSJ Goku to be 100 million.
If Ultimate Gohan was so strong, why couldn't he (or even Gotenks for that matter) have fought Kid Buu at the end instead of Goku/Vegeta?
I remember reading somewhere that the "1% of my power" thing was added into the dub with no foundation and it wasn't mentioned in the manga at all. This chart says it's even less than 1%, so who knows. This thread is hilarious by the way.
I wish these numbers actually meant something, like what someone earlier said. I'd like to know what someone could do with 2 billion power level that they couldn't do with, say, 1 million. What's the difference? Frieza saga messed things up I think.
On September 23 2013 13:04 Epishade wrote: I can't find Hercule on the charts!
I wish these numbers actually meant something, like what someone earlier said. I'd like to know what someone could do with 2 billion power level that they couldn't do with, say, 1 million. What's the difference? Frieza saga messed things up I think.
Apparently a high enough power level lets you do this
On September 23 2013 13:04 Epishade wrote: I can't find Hercule on the charts!
I wish these numbers actually meant something, like what someone earlier said. I'd like to know what someone could do with 2 billion power level that they couldn't do with, say, 1 million. What's the difference? Frieza saga messed things up I think.
So, with senzu beans available, revival from the dragonballs, and a gigantic power gain after almost dying.... why did the saiyans not just beam each other to near death then eat a senzu bean over and over and over again (like vegeta did vs freiza)
On September 23 2013 13:04 Epishade wrote: I can't find Hercule on the charts!
I wish these numbers actually meant something, like what someone earlier said. I'd like to know what someone could do with 2 billion power level that they couldn't do with, say, 1 million. What's the difference? Frieza saga messed things up I think.
So, with senzu beans available, revival from the dragonballs, and a gigantic power gain after almost dying.... why did the saiyans not just beam each other to near death then eat a senzu bean over and over and over again (like vegeta did vs freiza)
Because zenkais stopped happening after they went super saiyan for some reason.
On September 23 2013 13:04 Epishade wrote: I can't find Hercule on the charts!
I wish these numbers actually meant something, like what someone earlier said. I'd like to know what someone could do with 2 billion power level that they couldn't do with, say, 1 million. What's the difference? Frieza saga messed things up I think.
So, with senzu beans available, revival from the dragonballs, and a gigantic power gain after almost dying.... why did the saiyans not just beam each other to near death then eat a senzu bean over and over and over again (like vegeta did vs freiza)
Because zenkais stopped happening after they went super saiyan for some reason.
maybe they wanted to use potara rings as the deus ex machina to keep things fresh. basically didnt matter which "i win"-card they used to fullfil powerups necessary for the story.
On September 23 2013 08:31 CruelZeratul wrote: As someone earlier in this thread mentioned: I also don't quite get the power and speed scaling. Pretty much in the beginning Vegeta just wipes a whole planet from the universe without any effort (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnqtg0bte6w). At the end of the series every little energy attack should at least kill the earth, if not the whole solar system outright, but it doens't for some reason. Another example: on Namek a full power punch causes people to fly hundrets of meters through solid rock, so later on they should go through the whole earth at least. Same with speed, on Namek speed seems to be the highest throughout the entire series.
Aside from that, how does full power Gohan lose all of his power and becomes so weak again? And why could he become so strong in the first place? Is the human/saiyajinmix better then pure saiyans after all, or what is the requirement that a Kai can make someone that strong? Wouldn't it be a good idea to get Goku those powers aswell?
And @RyLai: I don't get the Potora fusion formula: Vegito with C=1 gets 3.3 quintillion base Vegito with C = 100,000) gets 33 trillion base, jet the formula is C(AxB), so with higher C the numbers should be higher. Or should the formula be (AxB) / C (or just C be a number between 0 and 1)? Aside from that , shouldn't 55 millionen * 60 million be be 3,3*e^15, so Vegito's base strength should be quadrillion, not quintillion?
Good catch. I messed that up on the Potara Fusion formula! Thanks!
Gohan loses his power because 1) his power is largely linked with his emotions, and 2) he stops training. I just go off the fact that Vegeta calls Gohan pitiful and never stops nagging the fact that he was stronger when he fought Cell. Gohan was a relative joke compared to the other 2 at the time though, but I guess that's what happens when you fall below the benchmark and everyone rises above it.
Vegeta blowing up a planet was in the anime (so technically non-cannon). He could probably do it though, if he aimed for the core. Off-core shots require more power level to blow up (minimum of 300 million according to the scale I threw up, 300 kilis for a definitive number).
I don't know if Dragonball is at all included in this (I don't see why it wouldn't be)... But Master Roshi was able to destroy the moon and his power level couldn't have been much higher than 100. Earth is approximately 4x bigger than the moon. If there's a linear relationship between size of planet and power level required to destroy it then both Goku and Piccolo (using your numbers) had ample power using charged attacks at the very beginning of DBZ (Kamehameha and SBC both reach ~1000 or more vs Raditz).
If that's the case then there's no way anybody would need an off-core shot as powerful as 300 million to destroy a planet. It would be less than 1 million and almost certainly less than 100,000 (depending on the planet and how the shot hits).
Why don't we just accept that the numbers in DBZ make zero sense basically from the very beginning?
On September 23 2013 08:31 CruelZeratul wrote: As someone earlier in this thread mentioned: I also don't quite get the power and speed scaling. Pretty much in the beginning Vegeta just wipes a whole planet from the universe without any effort (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xnqtg0bte6w). At the end of the series every little energy attack should at least kill the earth, if not the whole solar system outright, but it doens't for some reason. Another example: on Namek a full power punch causes people to fly hundrets of meters through solid rock, so later on they should go through the whole earth at least. Same with speed, on Namek speed seems to be the highest throughout the entire series.
Aside from that, how does full power Gohan lose all of his power and becomes so weak again? And why could he become so strong in the first place? Is the human/saiyajinmix better then pure saiyans after all, or what is the requirement that a Kai can make someone that strong? Wouldn't it be a good idea to get Goku those powers aswell?
And @RyLai: I don't get the Potora fusion formula: Vegito with C=1 gets 3.3 quintillion base Vegito with C = 100,000) gets 33 trillion base, jet the formula is C(AxB), so with higher C the numbers should be higher. Or should the formula be (AxB) / C (or just C be a number between 0 and 1)? Aside from that , shouldn't 55 millionen * 60 million be be 3,3*e^15, so Vegito's base strength should be quadrillion, not quintillion?
Good catch. I messed that up on the Potara Fusion formula! Thanks!
Gohan loses his power because 1) his power is largely linked with his emotions, and 2) he stops training. I just go off the fact that Vegeta calls Gohan pitiful and never stops nagging the fact that he was stronger when he fought Cell. Gohan was a relative joke compared to the other 2 at the time though, but I guess that's what happens when you fall below the benchmark and everyone rises above it.
Vegeta blowing up a planet was in the anime (so technically non-cannon). He could probably do it though, if he aimed for the core. Off-core shots require more power level to blow up (minimum of 300 million according to the scale I threw up, 300 kilis for a definitive number).
I don't know if Dragonball is at all included in this (I don't see why it wouldn't be)... But Master Roshi was able to destroy the moon and his power level couldn't have been much higher than 100. Earth is approximately 4x bigger than the moon. If there's a linear relationship between size of planet and power level required to destroy it then both Goku and Piccolo (using your numbers) had ample power using charged attacks at the very beginning of DBZ (Kamehameha and SBC both reach ~1000 or more vs Raditz).
If that's the case then there's no way anybody would need an off-core shot as powerful as 300 million to destroy a planet. It would be less than 1 million and almost certainly less than 100,000 (depending on the planet and how the shot hits).
Why don't we just accept that the numbers in DBZ make zero sense basically from the very beginning?
thats actually an excellent point. but AT most likely didnt have dbz power level stuff in mind when he created that early episode of vanilla db.
wow, incredible thread OP! I've read about power level before but this has such a good layout and you seem to know your stuff pretty damn well even if some of the numbers are not 100% right since we will never really know exact amounts of most things after the freiza arc. I have to say though, this: Super Saiyan 3: 1,320 quintillion, 1.32 sextillion made me :O Such a crazy high number and to think these guys were having issues with 30,000 power levels at the beginning of DBZ lol
On September 23 2013 05:20 Pretty Aluminum wrote: ssj 3 goku is by far the strongest at the end of dbz. Anyone who claims Mystic gohan is stronger is instantly stupid.
Mystic gohan >>>> ssj 3 goku. Mystic gohan easily beat up Super Buu and was even with Super Buu who absorbed piccolo and SS3 gotanks(or w/e they are called). Mystic gohan is regarded as the strongest non-fused character in the manga! He's also my favourite character
On September 23 2013 06:18 On_Slaught wrote: At those levels just the force of one of their punches, regardless of whether it hits, would at the very least destroy every life form on the continent, if not the whole planet.
You really don't want to apply physics to DBZ. It's far worse than Superman.
rofl this. Physics doesn't apply in DBZ at all.
On September 23 2013 06:35 Gary Oak wrote: The really outrageous power levels are one of the things that kind of killed my interest in the later parts of DBZ. I guess my suspension of disbelief couldn't handle it. Think about it: 18,000 is more than enough to destroy a planet. When you get into the trillions, a fart would probably wipe out the whole solar system.
On September 23 2013 13:04 Epishade wrote: I can't find Hercule on the charts!
I wish these numbers actually meant something, like what someone earlier said. I'd like to know what someone could do with 2 billion power level that they couldn't do with, say, 1 million. What's the difference? Frieza saga messed things up I think.
So, with senzu beans available, revival from the dragonballs, and a gigantic power gain after almost dying.... why did the saiyans not just beam each other to near death then eat a senzu bean over and over and over again (like vegeta did vs freiza)
that episode was pure comedy. I broke down laughing when Buu was losing to some candy XD
On September 23 2013 12:34 B1nary wrote: It's all Freiza's fault for getting all the power levels super-inflated. When he was fighting Goku, he said "I'm only using 1% of my power" (or did that get mis-translated in the dub?) At that point, he was already at >1 million, which sets the baseline SSJ Goku to be 100 million.
If Ultimate Gohan was so strong, why couldn't he (or even Gotenks for that matter) have fought Kid Buu at the end instead of Goku/Vegeta?
Cause Goku fucked up and saved Hercule and his dog instead of the fighters.
On September 23 2013 13:04 Epishade wrote: I can't find Hercule on the charts!
I wish these numbers actually meant something, like what someone earlier said. I'd like to know what someone could do with 2 billion power level that they couldn't do with, say, 1 million. What's the difference? Frieza saga messed things up I think.
There is a link on what the power levels can destroy based on the statement that it takes 300 kilis to destroy a planet.
Maybe Piccolo's training was just straight up more efficient and could only be done by warrior-type Namekians? (Or in Piccolo's case, the most talented Namekian of some super strong clan.)
I mean, Piccolo is still significantly stronger than any base Saiyan except Gotenks (who is supposed to be stronger than a SS2 in base form), but he doesn't compare to any of the top 3 in Super Saiyan form after the Cell Saga (I can't put Piccolo as being anywhere near Perfect Cell, though I can easily put him above Kaioshin because Kami's unease and respect held Piccolo back from using his full abilities).
After the cell saga the show becomes retarded, and they raped Piccolo's character. But just to focus on the main point: Why in the hell would Piccolo's method be so much more effiecient? And why wasnt it before the advent of ssj? For example. Goku was stronger than Piccolo before he went SSJ. But for the show to make sense, Piccolo simply out trained every single sayan and surpassed their base power by a drastic margin, from a huge deficit, from the freiza to the android saga. Maybe he even retains that for a while after, we dont really know and things become murky. But that kinda of dramatic increase is just a huge plot hole. Goku would of just copied what Piccolo was doing if it was so much better [he surely would share it, they train to protect the planet afterall]. And, more importantly, Sayans are meant to be a 'warrior race', Piccolo's basically a plant. So again, why can he totally totally TOTALLY out pace base sayans in training? Its ridiculous.
1) Now you know why the Buu Saga is the least liked saga for hardcore DBZ fans. 2) Piccolo uses the split technique (whatever it's called). So he can constantly train with someone of equal strength, and probably reap twice the benefits (that second part is a guess, probably not true). The Saiyans NEVER train with each other with the exception of Goku and Gohan, who for that period have shown the greatest growth rate in all of DBZ aside from anyone named Piccolo. And Goku started off training Gohan to basically be as strong as him. So now it doesn't seem as awkward for Piccolo to have more efficient training methods now does it? 3) Piccolo would likely not share his training methods with Goku if he can avoid it. His goal is STILL to be the strongest of them all, even if world domination is still no longer part of his aims. But the fact is, even if he told Goku to use the split form technique, would Goku do it? No, cause he can't!
On September 23 2013 11:29 Olinimmm wrote:
Here's my rebuttal: Billis sizes up Goku and says "I don't believe you could've beaten Frieza. That must mean going Super Saiyan powers you up". Goku in base form (post Buu saga) isn't comparable in battle to Frieza. This movie is considered cannon because apparently AT had a lot to do with it, and it makes my list more accurate, and it gives us a good range of power levels to go by, instead of simply stating Goku's base power level is infinity to the power of 20 million because there's nothing to refute it.
I know about the line from BoG, but in my opinion Goku was suppressed. There's simply too much in the original manga that supports base saiyans>>>>>frieza that it's the only conclusion to make. There's 4 examples I have in mind to prove it. 1. Goten and trunks vs 18. Goten and trunks fight close to evenly with 18 even with the might mask costume on, if they were weaker than Frieza then 18 could oneshot them. 2. All the saiyans agree on the no super saiyan rule for the tournament, they know that Piccolo is coming, and yet still expect to win. If they were weaker than Frieza then they would have no hope of defeating Piccolo in base. 3. Supreme kai can oneshot Frieza, he was pissing his pants at the thought of fighting Yakon, who base Goku was near equal with. 4. If you're going to count Battle of Gods as canon you might as well count YO son goku and his friends return. In the movie, Tarble states that Abo and Cado have become equal to Frieza, Goku states that he was not much of an opponent in hindsight and says they would be a good match for the boys. Goten and Trunks proceed to fight them equally in base.
All this is much more than 1 statement that can easily be attributed to Goku being suppressed, which happened in YO son goku as well.
1) If 18 1-shots them, she might get disqualified for killing someone. Also, she didn't know it was Goten and Trunks until they turned Super Saiyan. They're very likely weaker than Frieza at that point if you do go by that Yo Son Goku special. I mean, when Trunks was in the gravity room with Vegeta doing 300g, he could barely move, which is roughly what Vegeta would've done when he first went crazy on the gravity training, so Trunks should be around that point, and probably a little less, which means less than 2.5 million. 2) Vegeta runs his mouth a lot. I also thought over this scenario quite a bit and chalked it down to either he didn't know Piccolo was competing or he just ran his mouth off (Gohan knows Piccolo is competing, and he talked to Piccolo AFTER talking to Trunks and Vegeta). However, he HAD to know 18 was competing, because she was in the plane with him. As a result, I just conclude that Vegeta was running his arrogant mouth without keeping it in check, as usual. Vegeta may be an intelligent fighter, but he's beyond cocky and sometimes forgets how strong his opponent is or how strong they could be. 3) Yakon is over 5x the strength of Frieza. To one-shot a guy, you just need to be around 2x their strength. Yakon can more than likely likely 1-shot Frieza as well. Also, base Goku is not on par with Yakon. It's likely Yakon was playing around with him, since he seems to be the type to play with his food when you take into consideration him eating Goku's light emissions in his SS form. 4) Battle of the Gods had a fairly heavy involvement from AT. AT designed the SS God look, and apparently fought vehemently for it according to DBZ wiki. I have no idea how much involvement the Goku and Friends special had from AT, but it is known that AT was fairly active in the making of the 14th movie. I'd expect a God of the caliber of Billis to at least be able to reasonably size up a surpressed Saiyan within reason. Ginyu did it, why not Billis?
1. Gravity levels are inconsistent to power levels. Also I believe they were in 150g but even if it was 300g that means it was just 3 times what Namek saga Goku(90,000) was doing. That means Trunks would only be at 270,000. Which means even his super saiyan would be weaker than Frieza, which is absolutely impossible. Also, Ssj trunks landed a punch on Ssj vegeta, if he was 2.5 mil then vegeta is like 25 times stronger than him by your numbers so how did that happen? 2. This is really just a cop out I mean seriously. Vegeta got his ass kicked by 18 as a super saiyan, if hes at 55 mil there is no way in hell he's gonna expect to beat her. I mean there's being arrogant and then there's being flat out delusional. Besides, Gohan invited Piccolo and didnt expect to lose to him either, are you saying both Vegeta and Gohan are that delusional? 3. I don't agree, looking at the fight Goku doesn't seem to be in any trouble in base form, and even after Babidi transports them to yakon's homeworld, Goku dodges his attack and kicks him in the face, Yakon looks stunned. If you're gonna claim that he was suppressed/holding back, I can just say the same thing about Base goku in BOG. 4.Ginyu didn't accurately guess Goku's power, he guessed 60k, and he only guessed that not because of sensing him, but by the fact that Goku owned the Ginyu Force. If Bills saw Base Gokus feats he would guess higher as well.
Honestly the whole Buu saga basically shoves in our face that Frieza is a joke, even to the dork that is Supreme Kai. So yeah other than that though even for how weak you have Base saiyans, the kids are still way too low. Gohan was impressed by Goten's power and was worried that he might be surpassed. SSj trunks landed a hit on vegeta.
1) He's not punching back. Yeah, some things don't make sense. For things like that, we have only 1 reasonable explanation: plot. Also, AT didn't write DBZ with the intention of sticking to something like power levels. We create power level lists for fun, to put an understandable value on their powers, and in my case cause the math turned out much better than I thought it ever possibly could, considering a some of the numbers given to us were initially so hard to believe (SS2 being 2x SS, fusion being AxB). 2) Gohan thought of the no Super Saiyan rule last minute. He was more concerned with protecting his identity than the prize money. Are you saying you think out EVERY on-the-spot decision you've made in your life 100% through in 5 seconds? If so, you're a genius. 3) Yakon is stunned because they've never heard of the concept of seeing ki. Yakon thought he had an indomitable advantage and it was thrown in his face. If you were playing texas hold em, and you could see your opponent's cards without them knowing, you had a pair of aces, go all in, and he calls you with a 3-4 off suit and wins, and it turns out he can read the flop, turn, and river on top of seeing your hand, wouldn't you be mind blown? Mathematically, if Goku was at 800 kilis, or even just 700 kilis, that means Super Saiyan is 35,000 kilis, and Super Saiyan 2 is 70,000 kilis. Considering Dabura is over 4,000 kilis, and is comparable to Perfect Cell in strength, that means Goku can trash Perfect Cell with a Kaioken x6. Do you see how retarded the idea of base Goku being anywhere close to Yakon is if you actually do the math? If you don't like it, then go with the fact that AT is a forgetful person and that he's not a mathematician and chalk it down to plot. You could go with the decaying SS multipliers theory, but if you go with that, you literally ARE just pulling numbers out of your ass, even if the numbers seem more sensible, they're nothing but what you feel would be good and have no real data to base your numbers off of. 4) His initial guess was 60k. After fighting a bit he hit the number pretty close.
Frieza was a joke the instant Trunks showed up. Frieza has been a joke ever since the ending of the Frieza arc.
Having the kids be ridiculously high without any real rigorous training would be tough to imagine. Also, in one of the later specials, they were supposed to be a good match for Frieza. Given that I wouldn't say my half-Saiyan kid was a good match for the guy unless his power level was around 3 million (cause anything more would be overkill), I'm going to say that their power level has to be under 3 million. I mean, if their base was 120 million, then it wouldn't be a close match because if my kid throws a tantrum because things aren't going his way, he'll just go super and wipe the floor with the guy; that's not much of a good match.
[B]On September 23 2013 12:49 Dodgin wrote: Thanks for providing the stream link for the battle of the gods movie, completely forgot about that for a while, was looking for a stream to watch it like 5 months ago.
Yeah. The thing is, it wasn't released on DVD until earlier this month, so basically if you looked for it 5 months ago, it didn't exist (trust me, I looked too, then I googled the DVD release date and saw it to be September).
He was stronger than Super Buu - minus the absorped people.
I only read the danish translation, but it clearly shows Goku and Vegeta being like "uhh wut?" when they tore out Fat Buu from inside Super Buu and then made it out and watched him shrink in size and grow in power
I don't agree with some of the numbers at all, but it is a great discussion point for DBZ fans haha, very awesome and nice effort you put in thanks!
Wonder what would happen with the movies in terms of power level, damn they were messed up some of those! Always wonder how you scale in Gohan's power before the Cell fights due to him basically randomly 1shotting people to then getting his ass kicked cuz he is scared.... xD
On September 23 2013 16:55 Iplaythings wrote: He was stronger than Super Buu - minus the absorped people.
I only read the danish translation, but it clearly shows Goku and Vegeta being like "uhh wut?" when they tore out Fat Buu from inside Super Buu and then made it out and watched him shrink in size and grow in power
Can't be possible if you're talking about Goku. Gotenks>SS2 Majin Vegeta=SS2 Goku. SS3 Gotenks=Super Buu. It's mathematically impossible that SS3 Goku could be compared to Super Buu.
On September 23 2013 11:51 RyLai wrote: 1) Now you know why the Buu Saga is the least liked saga for hardcore DBZ fans. 2) Piccolo uses the split technique (whatever it's called). So he can constantly train with someone of equal strength, and probably reap twice the benefits (that second part is a guess, probably not true). The Saiyans NEVER train with each other with the exception of Goku and Gohan, who for that period have shown the greatest growth rate in all of DBZ aside from anyone named Piccolo. And Goku started off training Gohan to basically be as strong as him. So now it doesn't seem as awkward for Piccolo to have more efficient training methods now does it? 3) Piccolo would likely not share his training methods with Goku if he can avoid it. His goal is STILL to be the strongest of them all, even if world domination is still no longer part of his aims. But the fact is, even if he told Goku to use the split form technique, would Goku do it? No, cause he can't!
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1) Ive always hated the Buu saga. 2) Everyone knows the split technique, and so Goku could do the same thing. Piccolo also knew this technique long before SSJ, and yet couldnt keep pace with Goku's training. Goku and Gohan also were implied to have trained together during the wait for the Androids, yet, again, by the power level increase Piccolo was easily more than doubling them. Through a technique they already knew? Your grasping at straws and you know it. 3) Theres no hint of him being a meglomaniac at all after he renounces his past, and [multiple times at that] the DBZ fighters arent training 'to be the best', but literally to defeat incoming threats which will kill them all and burn the planet to the ground. Whatever degree of warrior pride Piccolo had doesnt extend that far, hes not Vegeta for crying out loud.
4) Ive never heard anything about Goku not knowing split form, and given he learned the Kamamah wave [and basically everything, ever] in a split second, I highly doubt he cant do it. And more importantly, Tien/Krillin etc also know this technique, and should be able to outpace base sayans using it just as Piccolo did, but they fell behind instead. Unless this split form technique is only one "mysterious" part of Piccolos "mysterious" but never before mentioned and randomly discovered and never transmitted training regimine, inbetween the freiza and android sagas--- which he randomly stopped using despite increasing at dramatic rates that would surely see him surpass SSJ2 long before the Buu Saga.
Sorry, no matter what way you splice it, whatever excuse is eventually banked on, its just contrived nonsense for bad writing. DBZ was entertaining as a kid but its not really a workable anime/manga in a rigid sense.
I know there is probably mathematical support for some of your numbers, but the disparity that is built into the Base>Super Saiyan multiplications does not jive with the series in the least. What appears (to me) to happen is that achieving super Saiyan levels results in a permanent increase in power that translates to your regular form as well. Regular, walking around, Goku would have kicked Frieza's ass when he returns to Earth with King Cool. This part of the show, along with the Cell Games Saga (where Goku and Gohan train themselves to stay in Super Saiyan form) demonstrate that the Z fighters have enormous control over the power level they want to maintain (which is hard to do in the SS forms, as demonstrated by them hilariously breaking cups).
If you want even more demonstrations of how strong Goku's Normal Mode is, you just have to look at what happened after he died in the Cell Games, and went to that stupid tournament (plus the part where he went to DBZ hell with his friend and they cleaned house).
On September 23 2013 12:34 B1nary wrote: It's all Freiza's fault for getting all the power levels super-inflated. When he was fighting Goku, he said "I'm only using 1% of my power" (or did that get mis-translated in the dub?) At that point, he was already at >1 million, which sets the baseline SSJ Goku to be 100 million.
If Ultimate Gohan was so strong, why couldn't he (or even Gotenks for that matter) have fought Kid Buu at the end instead of Goku/Vegeta?
Cause Goku fucked up and saved Hercule and his dog instead of the fighters.
On September 23 2013 13:04 Epishade wrote: I can't find Hercule on the charts!
I wish these numbers actually meant something, like what someone earlier said. I'd like to know what someone could do with 2 billion power level that they couldn't do with, say, 1 million. What's the difference? Frieza saga messed things up I think.
There is a link on what the power levels can destroy based on the statement that it takes 300 kilis to destroy a planet.
Maybe Piccolo's training was just straight up more efficient and could only be done by warrior-type Namekians? (Or in Piccolo's case, the most talented Namekian of some super strong clan.)
I mean, Piccolo is still significantly stronger than any base Saiyan except Gotenks (who is supposed to be stronger than a SS2 in base form), but he doesn't compare to any of the top 3 in Super Saiyan form after the Cell Saga (I can't put Piccolo as being anywhere near Perfect Cell, though I can easily put him above Kaioshin because Kami's unease and respect held Piccolo back from using his full abilities).
After the cell saga the show becomes retarded, and they raped Piccolo's character. But just to focus on the main point: Why in the hell would Piccolo's method be so much more effiecient? And why wasnt it before the advent of ssj? For example. Goku was stronger than Piccolo before he went SSJ. But for the show to make sense, Piccolo simply out trained every single sayan and surpassed their base power by a drastic margin, from a huge deficit, from the freiza to the android saga. Maybe he even retains that for a while after, we dont really know and things become murky. But that kinda of dramatic increase is just a huge plot hole. Goku would of just copied what Piccolo was doing if it was so much better [he surely would share it, they train to protect the planet afterall]. And, more importantly, Sayans are meant to be a 'warrior race', Piccolo's basically a plant. So again, why can he totally totally TOTALLY out pace base sayans in training? Its ridiculous.
1) Now you know why the Buu Saga is the least liked saga for hardcore DBZ fans. 2) Piccolo uses the split technique (whatever it's called). So he can constantly train with someone of equal strength, and probably reap twice the benefits (that second part is a guess, probably not true). The Saiyans NEVER train with each other with the exception of Goku and Gohan, who for that period have shown the greatest growth rate in all of DBZ aside from anyone named Piccolo. And Goku started off training Gohan to basically be as strong as him. So now it doesn't seem as awkward for Piccolo to have more efficient training methods now does it? 3) Piccolo would likely not share his training methods with Goku if he can avoid it. His goal is STILL to be the strongest of them all, even if world domination is still no longer part of his aims. But the fact is, even if he told Goku to use the split form technique, would Goku do it? No, cause he can't!
On September 23 2013 11:29 Olinimmm wrote:
Here's my rebuttal: Billis sizes up Goku and says "I don't believe you could've beaten Frieza. That must mean going Super Saiyan powers you up". Goku in base form (post Buu saga) isn't comparable in battle to Frieza. This movie is considered cannon because apparently AT had a lot to do with it, and it makes my list more accurate, and it gives us a good range of power levels to go by, instead of simply stating Goku's base power level is infinity to the power of 20 million because there's nothing to refute it.
I know about the line from BoG, but in my opinion Goku was suppressed. There's simply too much in the original manga that supports base saiyans>>>>>frieza that it's the only conclusion to make. There's 4 examples I have in mind to prove it. 1. Goten and trunks vs 18. Goten and trunks fight close to evenly with 18 even with the might mask costume on, if they were weaker than Frieza then 18 could oneshot them. 2. All the saiyans agree on the no super saiyan rule for the tournament, they know that Piccolo is coming, and yet still expect to win. If they were weaker than Frieza then they would have no hope of defeating Piccolo in base. 3. Supreme kai can oneshot Frieza, he was pissing his pants at the thought of fighting Yakon, who base Goku was near equal with. 4. If you're going to count Battle of Gods as canon you might as well count YO son goku and his friends return. In the movie, Tarble states that Abo and Cado have become equal to Frieza, Goku states that he was not much of an opponent in hindsight and says they would be a good match for the boys. Goten and Trunks proceed to fight them equally in base.
All this is much more than 1 statement that can easily be attributed to Goku being suppressed, which happened in YO son goku as well.
1) If 18 1-shots them, she might get disqualified for killing someone. Also, she didn't know it was Goten and Trunks until they turned Super Saiyan. They're very likely weaker than Frieza at that point if you do go by that Yo Son Goku special. I mean, when Trunks was in the gravity room with Vegeta doing 300g, he could barely move, which is roughly what Vegeta would've done when he first went crazy on the gravity training, so Trunks should be around that point, and probably a little less, which means less than 2.5 million. 2) Vegeta runs his mouth a lot. I also thought over this scenario quite a bit and chalked it down to either he didn't know Piccolo was competing or he just ran his mouth off (Gohan knows Piccolo is competing, and he talked to Piccolo AFTER talking to Trunks and Vegeta). However, he HAD to know 18 was competing, because she was in the plane with him. As a result, I just conclude that Vegeta was running his arrogant mouth without keeping it in check, as usual. Vegeta may be an intelligent fighter, but he's beyond cocky and sometimes forgets how strong his opponent is or how strong they could be. 3) Yakon is over 5x the strength of Frieza. To one-shot a guy, you just need to be around 2x their strength. Yakon can more than likely likely 1-shot Frieza as well. Also, base Goku is not on par with Yakon. It's likely Yakon was playing around with him, since he seems to be the type to play with his food when you take into consideration him eating Goku's light emissions in his SS form. 4) Battle of the Gods had a fairly heavy involvement from AT. AT designed the SS God look, and apparently fought vehemently for it according to DBZ wiki. I have no idea how much involvement the Goku and Friends special had from AT, but it is known that AT was fairly active in the making of the 14th movie. I'd expect a God of the caliber of Billis to at least be able to reasonably size up a surpressed Saiyan within reason. Ginyu did it, why not Billis?
1. Gravity levels are inconsistent to power levels. Also I believe they were in 150g but even if it was 300g that means it was just 3 times what Namek saga Goku(90,000) was doing. That means Trunks would only be at 270,000. Which means even his super saiyan would be weaker than Frieza, which is absolutely impossible. Also, Ssj trunks landed a punch on Ssj vegeta, if he was 2.5 mil then vegeta is like 25 times stronger than him by your numbers so how did that happen? 2. This is really just a cop out I mean seriously. Vegeta got his ass kicked by 18 as a super saiyan, if hes at 55 mil there is no way in hell he's gonna expect to beat her. I mean there's being arrogant and then there's being flat out delusional. Besides, Gohan invited Piccolo and didnt expect to lose to him either, are you saying both Vegeta and Gohan are that delusional? 3. I don't agree, looking at the fight Goku doesn't seem to be in any trouble in base form, and even after Babidi transports them to yakon's homeworld, Goku dodges his attack and kicks him in the face, Yakon looks stunned. If you're gonna claim that he was suppressed/holding back, I can just say the same thing about Base goku in BOG. 4.Ginyu didn't accurately guess Goku's power, he guessed 60k, and he only guessed that not because of sensing him, but by the fact that Goku owned the Ginyu Force. If Bills saw Base Gokus feats he would guess higher as well.
Honestly the whole Buu saga basically shoves in our face that Frieza is a joke, even to the dork that is Supreme Kai. So yeah other than that though even for how weak you have Base saiyans, the kids are still way too low. Gohan was impressed by Goten's power and was worried that he might be surpassed. SSj trunks landed a hit on vegeta.
1) He's not punching back. Yeah, some things don't make sense. For things like that, we have only 1 reasonable explanation: plot. Also, AT didn't write DBZ with the intention of sticking to something like power levels. We create power level lists for fun, to put an understandable value on their powers, and in my case cause the math turned out much better than I thought it ever possibly could, considering a some of the numbers given to us were initially so hard to believe (SS2 being 2x SS, fusion being AxB). 2) Gohan thought of the no Super Saiyan rule last minute. He was more concerned with protecting his identity than the prize money. Are you saying you think out EVERY on-the-spot decision you've made in your life 100% through in 5 seconds? If so, you're a genius. 3) Yakon is stunned because they've never heard of the concept of seeing ki. Yakon thought he had an indomitable advantage and it was thrown in his face. If you were playing texas hold em, and you could see your opponent's cards without them knowing, you had a pair of aces, go all in, and he calls you with a 3-4 off suit and wins, and it turns out he can read the flop, turn, and river on top of seeing your hand, wouldn't you be mind blown? Mathematically, if Goku was at 800 kilis, or even just 700 kilis, that means Super Saiyan is 35,000 kilis, and Super Saiyan 2 is 70,000 kilis. Considering Dabura is over 4,000 kilis, and is comparable to Perfect Cell in strength, that means Goku can trash Perfect Cell with a Kaioken x6. Do you see how retarded the idea of base Goku being anywhere close to Yakon is if you actually do the math? If you don't like it, then go with the fact that AT is a forgetful person and that he's not a mathematician and chalk it down to plot. You could go with the decaying SS multipliers theory, but if you go with that, you literally ARE just pulling numbers out of your ass, even if the numbers seem more sensible, they're nothing but what you feel would be good and have no real data to base your numbers off of. 4) His initial guess was 60k. After fighting a bit he hit the number pretty close.
Frieza was a joke the instant Trunks showed up. Frieza has been a joke ever since the ending of the Frieza arc.
Having the kids be ridiculously high without any real rigorous training would be tough to imagine. Also, in one of the later specials, they were supposed to be a good match for Frieza. Given that I wouldn't say my half-Saiyan kid was a good match for the guy unless his power level was around 3 million (cause anything more would be overkill), I'm going to say that their power level has to be under 3 million. I mean, if their base was 120 million, then it wouldn't be a close match because if my kid throws a tantrum because things aren't going his way, he'll just go super and wipe the floor with the guy; that's not much of a good match.
[B]On September 23 2013 12:49 Dodgin wrote: Thanks for providing the stream link for the battle of the gods movie, completely forgot about that for a while, was looking for a stream to watch it like 5 months ago.
Yeah. The thing is, it wasn't released on DVD until earlier this month, so basically if you looked for it 5 months ago, it didn't exist (trust me, I looked too, then I googled the DVD release date and saw it to be September).
1. Once again you have no argument here...ok so trunks can hit vegeta in the face even though hes 25 times weaker cause plot. What? How is it plot for SSjtrunks to be able to hit SSjVegeta when hes 25 times stronger, when according to you only a 30 percent difference is a stomp. But Goku being suppressed is just unthinkable for some reason.
2. It's not complicated, everyone knows how strong Piccolo is, if it just slipped Gohan and Vegeta's mind don't you think they would've realized when they saw him at the tournament? "Oh shit hes 20 times stronger than us in base, fuck that no super saiyan rule" The saiyans all agreed on the no super saiyan rule, and yet showed absolutely no sign that they were in any way worried about facing Piccolo or 18. Clearly they believe they are superior in base...
3. That's an anime only line, All we know about Dabura in terms of kilis is that he's confident in defeating someone with 3000 kilis, he could easily be at 35,000.
4. Yeah because he knows how much power hes using and Goku was matching him. How does this mean anything in terms of Bills magically sensing goku's suppressed ki?
Well, obviously Goku meant a close match in base because that's what they fought them in. Tarble: "As strong as freeza was" Kids then proceed to fight with a slight edge on abo and cado in base till they have no choice to fuse. So how can they possibly be at 3 mil?
About blowing up planets, I remember when Nappa, Raditz and Vegeta were wandering around the universe and destroying literally more than half of a planet with a single blast (nothing special like gallick gun or final flash, just a blast) leaving a crescent-moonly shaped planet.
On September 23 2013 05:20 Pretty Aluminum wrote: ssj 3 goku is by far the strongest at the end of dbz. Anyone who claims Mystic gohan is stronger is instantly stupid.
There is no doubt that mystic gohan is stronger than ssj3 goku. This is made less obvious in the english translation than in the original, but there is no doubt Toriyama intended Mystic Gohan to be stronger.
The only situation where Goku is shown as clearly stronger than Mystic Gohan is in a movie, which obviously doesn't count.
On September 23 2013 19:19 shin_toss wrote: What does SSJ mean? I only followed til Buu saga
Super Saiyajin, the japanese term for super saiyan.
Yes, Ultimate Gohan and Mystic Gohan refers to the same form. I don't think it's actually ever named in the series, fans started calling it Mystic Gohan and then it was called "Ultimate gohan" in some video games.
These numbers are way bigger than any other list I've seen. Particularly, the huge jump starts at Frieza where I've read 6 million at 50%, not 60 million. I've seen those same numbers, just with one less 0.
On September 23 2013 19:37 SolidMoose wrote: These numbers are way bigger than any other list I've seen. Particularly, the huge jump starts at Frieza where I've read 6 million at 50%, not 60 million. I've seen those same numbers, just with one less 0.
Yeah some people put Frieza at 12 million(though usually trolling) but its completely wrong. We know for a fact that 2nd Form frieza is at least 1 mil. Then inital Final Form Frieza is >>> 2nd form and =< to Goku post Zenkai. Goku pulls off a x20 kamehameha and it still doesnt hurt Frieza, which would be impossible.
It's not trolling, Akira Toriyama officially released powerlevels and put final form Frieza at 12 million while SSJ Goku sits at 15 million. It might not be logical, but it is official.
On September 23 2013 19:49 Tobberoth wrote: It's not trolling, Akira Toriyama officially released powerlevels and put final form Frieza at 12 million while SSJ Goku sits at 15 million. It might not be logical, but it is official.
On September 23 2013 19:49 Tobberoth wrote: It's not trolling, Akira Toriyama officially released powerlevels and put final form Frieza at 12 million while SSJ Goku sits at 15 million. It might not be logical, but it is official.
For me 12 milllion and 15 million seems way more logical, but I think the 120 milllion and 150 million are the official numbers.
On September 23 2013 19:49 Tobberoth wrote: It's not trolling, Akira Toriyama officially released powerlevels and put final form Frieza at 12 million while SSJ Goku sits at 15 million. It might not be logical, but it is official.
On September 23 2013 19:49 Tobberoth wrote: It's not trolling, Akira Toriyama officially released powerlevels and put final form Frieza at 12 million while SSJ Goku sits at 15 million. It might not be logical, but it is official.
On September 23 2013 19:49 Tobberoth wrote: It's not trolling, Akira Toriyama officially released powerlevels and put final form Frieza at 12 million while SSJ Goku sits at 15 million. It might not be logical, but it is official.
ok i get it. I say that people troll saying frieza is 12 mil, so you troll me saying frieza is 12 mil. Nice you almost had me.
You have to always go with what you think is authentic. The highest PL ever mentioned in the actual series is Frieza claiming to be at 1 mil when reaching form 2. Going by the guide books, the highest mentioned is Goku at 150 mil as SSJ, but Akira didn't write that.
On September 23 2013 19:49 Tobberoth wrote: It's not trolling, Akira Toriyama officially released powerlevels and put final form Frieza at 12 million while SSJ Goku sits at 15 million. It might not be logical, but it is official.
ok i get it. I say that people troll saying frieza is 12 mil, so you troll me saying frieza is 12 mil. Nice you almost had me.
You have to always go with what you think is authentic. The highest PL ever mentioned in the actual series is Frieza claiming to be at 1 mil when reaching form 2. Going by the guide books, the highest mentioned is Goku at 150 mil as SSJ, but Akira didn't write that.
You just said Akira officially stated that ssj goku was 15 mil, he didn't though,
On September 23 2013 20:00 thezanursic wrote: Amm I've only seen like 3-4 episodes of the show, but
Goku: 416
SS3 Goku: 24 billion
What the fuck?
To be fair, he did die twice, get trained by Gods, and fulfill an an alien prophecy to get to that power.
On September 23 2013 19:49 Tobberoth wrote: It's not trolling, Akira Toriyama officially released powerlevels and put final form Frieza at 12 million while SSJ Goku sits at 15 million. It might not be logical, but it is official.
ok i get it. I say that people troll saying frieza is 12 mil, so you troll me saying frieza is 12 mil. Nice you almost had me.
You have to always go with what you think is authentic. The highest PL ever mentioned in the actual series is Frieza claiming to be at 1 mil when reaching form 2. Going by the guide books, the highest mentioned is Goku at 150 mil as SSJ, but Akira didn't write that.
You just said Akira officially stated that ssj goku was 15 mil, he didn't though,
Several pages claim it, however, since only kids write these lists, they never provide any sources. I mean, if we only go by what is actually written in the manga, we're stuck at Friezas second form regardless, so there's no point in saying that they are trolling when they give later numbers. Either they have some source we don't know about, or they are just speculating like everyone else.
On September 23 2013 20:12 Uhnno wrote: This official picture by Toriyama definitely says Goku's Power Level is 150 Million. 50% Freeza is at 60 Million and 100% Freeza is at 120 Million.
On September 23 2013 20:12 Uhnno wrote: This official picture by Toriyama definitely says Goku's Power Level is 150 Million. 50% Freeza is at 60 Million and 100% Freeza is at 120 Million.
I never watched/read/had any interest for Dragon Ball, but what do you guys think about the Superman vs Goku episode of Death Battle? :-) It also features some stats for Goku's powers.
I think Nappa needs to be higher, otherwise Piccolo could've dealt with him more easily. Also in Androidsaga SSJ Goku without desease should be better then SSJ Vegeta, because there is no reason to assume that Vegeta overtook Goku. ANd after the 1 year training Goku would obviously kick Vegetas butt.
On September 23 2013 21:36 kwizach wrote: I never watched/read/had any interest for Dragon Ball, but what do you guys think about the Superman vs Goku episode of Death Battle? :-) It also features some stats for Goku's powers.
Well just from pure semantics and logic Goku can NOT beat Superman. Superman literally has infinite potential especially sun-dipped Superman (literally God at this point). Goku has limitations of which can be increased over time. Superman can just...go.
On September 23 2013 21:36 kwizach wrote: I never watched/read/had any interest for Dragon Ball, but what do you guys think about the Superman vs Goku episode of Death Battle? :-) It also features some stats for Goku's powers.
Well just from pure semantics and logic Goku can NOT beat Superman. Superman literally has infinite potential especially sun-dipped Superman (literally God at this point). Goku has limitations of which can be increased over time. Superman can just...go.
On September 23 2013 21:36 kwizach wrote: I never watched/read/had any interest for Dragon Ball, but what do you guys think about the Superman vs Goku episode of Death Battle? :-) It also features some stats for Goku's powers.
Well just from pure semantics and logic Goku can NOT beat Superman. Superman literally has infinite potential especially sun-dipped Superman (literally God at this point). Goku has limitations of which can be increased over time. Superman can just...go.
Which is why Superman sucks as a superhero. :D
seriously
He is boring imo. I never understood the whole hype of Superman. I mean I get it. He is intelligent, has combat experience, strong, fast etc... he is the damn DPS tank in mmo. Whereas other superheros aren't that invincible *cough Batman *cough.
I did like the justice league show on how they limited Superman (hell they even mentioned this issue multiple times in intelligent ways).
I still love Goku and DBZ but damn is this show inconsistent sometimes (Vegeta blowing up a planet in Season 1 but didn't have the power level to do so?).
On September 23 2013 21:36 kwizach wrote: I never watched/read/had any interest for Dragon Ball, but what do you guys think about the Superman vs Goku episode of Death Battle? :-) It also features some stats for Goku's powers.
Well just from pure semantics and logic Goku can NOT beat Superman. Superman literally has infinite potential especially sun-dipped Superman (literally God at this point). Goku has limitations of which can be increased over time. Superman can just...go.
Agreed. The only scenario where Goku would have any chance is if we add maluses for plot holes.
Since somebody brought up fan-made DB stuff, is anybody else reading Dragonball Multiverse? Probably my second favourite fan-made DB stuff after the abridged series.
Is the multiplier for Super Saiyan they used even accurate? in that scenario , Superman may have won because Goku destroyed the Kryptonite (which there is not 100% chance that he will do it, even its in his traits ) also what if Superman did not hit the sun, it would have been a lot different.
If you look the difference in power levels from normal form to SSJ 3 , its cleary not x2 , x4 and so on.. (what the video says).
On September 23 2013 22:40 LegalLord wrote: Goku could easily beat Superman if he were willing to play dirty, even without Kryptonite.
Instant Transmission both of them to a planet with a red sun, and it's over right then and there.
How would Goku know he needs to teleport him to a red sun? Also, he would need to concentrate to teleport them both there, and Superman would probably not give him the time to do so :p
On September 23 2013 22:27 heroyi wrote: I still love Goku and DBZ but damn is this show inconsistent sometimes (Vegeta blowing up a planet in Season 1 but didn't have the power level to do so?).
It's extra dumb since you barely need any powerlevel to destroy a planet (Kame-sennin blowing up the moon with a kamehameha in dragonball).
One thing I noticed is an error in OP is that when Frieza comes to Earth mechanized, he says something to the effect of "I can probably handle [Goku] myself now that I'm even more powerful." meaning that Mecha Frieza is stronger than 100% Frieza on Namek.
On September 23 2013 23:43 RPR_Tempest wrote: One thing I noticed is an error in OP is that when Frieza comes to Earth mechanized, he says something to the effect of "I can probably handle [Goku] myself now that I'm even more powerful." meaning that Mecha Frieza is stronger than 100% Frieza on Namek.
EDIT: That's a quote from the manga btw.
Translated manga or original manga? Because I don't remember that line to be there in the German translation.
I just want to say eventho it's not totally related that I had to endure the last OAV of dbz the other day with some people and it was utter and complete shit. Don't make the same fucking mistake.
On September 23 2013 22:40 LegalLord wrote: Goku could easily beat Superman if he were willing to play dirty, even without Kryptonite.
Instant Transmission both of them to a planet with a red sun, and it's over right then and there.
How would Goku know he needs to teleport him to a red sun?
I suppose he could always ask his universe-observing friends. Also, they can sense energy, so I don't see why he couldn't tell that Superman is drawing energy from the sun.
On September 24 2013 00:26 Boonbag wrote: I just want to say eventho it's not totally related that I had to endure the last OAV of dbz the other day with some people and it was utter and complete shit. Don't make the same fucking mistake.
Which one is that? Last one I remember was Episode of Bardock, which was pretty good as far as DBZ films go.
On September 24 2013 05:10 Musicus wrote: I was going to watch Battle of Gods soon... should I really not?
You should. I think we all owe it to dbz to watch it. I didn't think it was so bad. Was NOT what I hoped for, but I gotta take what I can get. I'm no worse off after watching it :p
What I have always wanted to know is how power levels translate to speed, strength, endurance, etc. For instance, if it is strictly linear and power levels relate to speed, shouldn't everyone be many times the speed of light at the end of the series? If this is the case, why can cell trick them with solar flare?
Just going through the list you have alot of numbers that are way off. Example is Goku super sayain during Freiza saga is 15 million not 150 million. So you can make alot of adjustments on it.
I've attached a spoiler below with the correct numbering from DBZ (if you want a DB and a GT let me know. Even though GT is a total failure.)
Time: Raditz Battle Farmer 5 Gohan 1-710 Gohan really angry 1, 130 Goku 334 Goku without heavy clothes 416 Goku Kamehameha 924 Krillin 206 Master Roshi 160 Piccolo 322 Piccolo without weighted clothes 408 Piccolo Makankosappo (first try) 1,330 Piccolo Makankosappo (second try) 1,440 Raditz 1,200 Tien 250 Turtle 0.001 Yamcha 177
Time: Saiya-jin Battle Chaozu 610 Gohan 981 Masenko 2,800 Oozaru 9,810-28,000 Goku 5,000 Goku charged up 8,000 Goku Kaio-Ken 12,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x2 16,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x3 24,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x4+Kamehameha 32,000 Krillin 1,083 - max 1,770 Nappa 4,000 Piccolo 1,220 - max 3,500 Saibamen 1,200 Tien 1,830 Vegeta 18,000 Oozaru 180,000 Yamcha 1,480
Time: Freeza Saga Gohan 1,500 Gohan after Guru charge 12,500 Gohan after Senzu Heal 17,000 Gohan while fighting Freeza 20,000 Krillin 1,500 Krillin after Guru's charge 11,000 Krillin after Senzu Heal 16,500 Krillin after Dende's Heal 19,000 Freeza's Henchmen 500 Kui 19,000 Dodoria 21,000 Zarbon 23,000 - Transformed 33,000 Vegeta 24,000 Vegeta after Zarbon Fight 35,000 Vegeta after Recoome Fight 300,000 Vegeta after Krillin's Attack 1,000,000 Guldo 10,000 Recoome 40,000 Burter 45,000 Jeice 50,000 Captain Ginyu 120,000 Ginyu In Goku's Body 23,000 Nail 42,000 Dende 10 Piccolo 200,000 Piccolo after fusion with Nail 800,000 Piccolo after Dende Heal 1,500,000 Goku 5,000 Goku after gravity training 180,000 Goku after Ginyu fight 300,000 Goku kaio-Ken x10 3,000,000 Goku kaio-Ken x20 6,000,000 Goku Super Saiyan 15,000,000 Freiza 530,000 Freiza form 2 1,000,000 Freiza form 3 2,500,000 Freiza final Form 4,000,000 Freiza 50% of max 6,000,000 Freiza 70% of max 8,400,000 Freiza 100% of max 12,000,000
Time: Garlic Jr. Saga Garlic Jr. 1,000,000 Garlic Jr. transformed 4,000,000 Gohan 900,000 Gohan really masenko 4,500,000 Kami 300,000 Krillin 600,000 Piccolo 2,000,000
Time: Trunks Saga Vegeta 4,000,000 Piccolo 3,000,000 Gohan 1,000,000 Krillin 750,000 Tien 800,000 Yamcha 700,000 Chaozu 500,000 Freeza's Henchmen 5,000 Freeza bot 12,500,000 King Cold 13,000,000 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 18,000,000 Surpressed 5 Super Saiya-jin Goku 20,000,000
Time: Android Saga Super Saiyan Goku 23,000,000 Goku sick 5,000,000 Goku after room of spirit and time 110,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 25,000,000 Vegeta after room of spirit and time 90,000,00 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 20,000,000 Trunks Ultra Super Saiyan 130,000,000 Piccolo 18,000,000 Piccolo after fusion with Kami 40,000,000 Gohan 6,000,000 Gohan after room of spirit and time 120,000,000 Krillin 4,500,000 Tien 4,000,000 Yamcha 3,000,000 Android 16 40,000,000 Android 17 35,000,000 Android 18 35,000,000 Android 19 10,000,000 Android 20 5,000,000 Cell 35,000,000 Cell after absorbing humans 45,000,000 Cell after absorbing Android 17 65,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000
Time: Cell Saga Super Saiyan Trunks 105,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 100,000,000 Super Saiyan Gohan 130,000,000 SSJ2 Gohan 325,000,000 Super Saiyan Goku 120,000,000 Piccolo 60,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
Majin Buu Saga
Fat Buu: 45,000,000 Majin Buu: 80,000,000 Good Buu: 55,000,000 Bad Buu: 65,000,000 Super Buu: 70,000,000 Ultimate Buu: 50,000,000 Majin Gotunks Buu: 90,000,000 Majin Veggetto Buu: 100,000,000 Goku: 5,000,000 Goku: super saiyan: 27,000,000 Goku: super saiyan 2: 49,500,000 Goku: super saiyan 3: 79,999,999 Goku: genki-dama: 100,000,000 Piccolo: 26,000,000 Gohan: 3,000,000 Gohan: super saiyan: 25,000,000 Gohan: with the Z sword: 53,000,000 Goten: 1,500,000 Goten: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Trunks: 1,500,000 Trunks: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Gotunks: 3,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan: 20,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan 3: 75,000,000 Vegeta: 5,000,000 Vegeta: super saiyan: 26,500,000 Vegeta: super saiyan 2: 49,000,000 Veggetto: 10,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan: 53,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000
On September 24 2013 05:10 Musicus wrote: I was going to watch Battle of Gods soon... should I really not?
You should. I think we all owe it to dbz to watch it. I didn't think it was so bad. Was NOT what I hoped for, but I gotta take what I can get. I'm no worse off after watching it :p
On September 24 2013 05:27 Canucklehead wrote: I enjoyed battle of gods. It's worth watching for any dbz fan.
On September 24 2013 05:33 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: Just going through the list you have alot of numbers that are way off. Example is Goku super sayain during Freiza saga is 15 million not 150 million. So you can make alot of adjustments on it.
I've attached a spoiler below with the correct numbering from DBZ (if you want a DB and a GT let me know. Even though GT is a total failure.)
Time: Raditz Battle Farmer 5 Gohan 1-710 Gohan really angry 1, 130 Goku 334 Goku without heavy clothes 416 Goku Kamehameha 924 Krillin 206 Master Roshi 160 Piccolo 322 Piccolo without weighted clothes 408 Piccolo Makankosappo (first try) 1,330 Piccolo Makankosappo (second try) 1,440 Raditz 1,200 Tien 250 Turtle 0.001 Yamcha 177
Time: Saiya-jin Battle Chaozu 610 Gohan 981 Masenko 2,800 Oozaru 9,810-28,000 Goku 5,000 Goku charged up 8,000 Goku Kaio-Ken 12,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x2 16,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x3 24,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x4+Kamehameha 32,000 Krillin 1,083 - max 1,770 Nappa 4,000 Piccolo 1,220 - max 3,500 Saibamen 1,200 Tien 1,830 Vegeta 18,000 Oozaru 180,000 Yamcha 1,480
Time: Freeza Saga Gohan 1,500 Gohan after Guru charge 12,500 Gohan after Senzu Heal 17,000 Gohan while fighting Freeza 20,000 Krillin 1,500 Krillin after Guru's charge 11,000 Krillin after Senzu Heal 16,500 Krillin after Dende's Heal 19,000 Freeza's Henchmen 500 Kui 19,000 Dodoria 21,000 Zarbon 23,000 - Transformed 33,000 Vegeta 24,000 Vegeta after Zarbon Fight 35,000 Vegeta after Recoome Fight 300,000 Vegeta after Krillin's Attack 1,000,000 Guldo 10,000 Recoome 40,000 Burter 45,000 Jeice 50,000 Captain Ginyu 120,000 Ginyu In Goku's Body 23,000 Nail 42,000 Dende 10 Piccolo 200,000 Piccolo after fusion with Nail 800,000 Piccolo after Dende Heal 1,500,000 Goku 5,000 Goku after gravity training 180,000 Goku after Ginyu fight 300,000 Goku kaio-Ken x10 3,000,000 Goku kaio-Ken x20 6,000,000 Goku Super Saiyan 15,000,000 Freiza 530,000 Freiza form 2 1,000,000 Freiza form 3 2,500,000 Freiza final Form 4,000,000 Freiza 50% of max 6,000,000 Freiza 70% of max 8,400,000 Freiza 100% of max 12,000,000
Time: Garlic Jr. Saga Garlic Jr. 1,000,000 Garlic Jr. transformed 4,000,000 Gohan 900,000 Gohan really masenko 4,500,000 Kami 300,000 Krillin 600,000 Piccolo 2,000,000
Time: Trunks Saga Vegeta 4,000,000 Piccolo 3,000,000 Gohan 1,000,000 Krillin 750,000 Tien 800,000 Yamcha 700,000 Chaozu 500,000 Freeza's Henchmen 5,000 Freeza bot 12,500,000 King Cold 13,000,000 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 18,000,000 Surpressed 5 Super Saiya-jin Goku 20,000,000
Time: Android Saga Super Saiyan Goku 23,000,000 Goku sick 5,000,000 Goku after room of spirit and time 110,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 25,000,000 Vegeta after room of spirit and time 90,000,00 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 20,000,000 Trunks Ultra Super Saiyan 130,000,000 Piccolo 18,000,000 Piccolo after fusion with Kami 40,000,000 Gohan 6,000,000 Gohan after room of spirit and time 120,000,000 Krillin 4,500,000 Tien 4,000,000 Yamcha 3,000,000 Android 16 40,000,000 Android 17 35,000,000 Android 18 35,000,000 Android 19 10,000,000 Android 20 5,000,000 Cell 35,000,000 Cell after absorbing humans 45,000,000 Cell after absorbing Android 17 65,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000
Time: Cell Saga Super Saiyan Trunks 105,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 100,000,000 Super Saiyan Gohan 130,000,000 SSJ2 Gohan 325,000,000 Super Saiyan Goku 120,000,000 Piccolo 60,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
Majin Buu Saga
Fat Buu: 45,000,000 Majin Buu: 80,000,000 Good Buu: 55,000,000 Bad Buu: 65,000,000 Super Buu: 70,000,000 Ultimate Buu: 50,000,000 Majin Gotunks Buu: 90,000,000 Majin Veggetto Buu: 100,000,000 Goku: 5,000,000 Goku: super saiyan: 27,000,000 Goku: super saiyan 2: 49,500,000 Goku: super saiyan 3: 79,999,999 Goku: genki-dama: 100,000,000 Piccolo: 26,000,000 Gohan: 3,000,000 Gohan: super saiyan: 25,000,000 Gohan: with the Z sword: 53,000,000 Goten: 1,500,000 Goten: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Trunks: 1,500,000 Trunks: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Gotunks: 3,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan: 20,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan 3: 75,000,000 Vegeta: 5,000,000 Vegeta: super saiyan: 26,500,000 Vegeta: super saiyan 2: 49,000,000 Veggetto: 10,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan: 53,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000
Can you (and others) explain why non Super Saiyan forms are so "weak" and why the Super Saiyan has to have this huge multiplier? My observation during watching is (as I stated before) that the power spike is not as drastic after you first achieve Super Saiyan.
On September 24 2013 05:33 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: Just going through the list you have alot of numbers that are way off. Example is Goku super sayain during Freiza saga is 15 million not 150 million. So you can make alot of adjustments on it.
I've attached a spoiler below with the correct numbering from DBZ (if you want a DB and a GT let me know. Even though GT is a total failure.)
Time: Raditz Battle Farmer 5 Gohan 1-710 Gohan really angry 1, 130 Goku 334 Goku without heavy clothes 416 Goku Kamehameha 924 Krillin 206 Master Roshi 160 Piccolo 322 Piccolo without weighted clothes 408 Piccolo Makankosappo (first try) 1,330 Piccolo Makankosappo (second try) 1,440 Raditz 1,200 Tien 250 Turtle 0.001 Yamcha 177
Time: Saiya-jin Battle Chaozu 610 Gohan 981 Masenko 2,800 Oozaru 9,810-28,000 Goku 5,000 Goku charged up 8,000 Goku Kaio-Ken 12,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x2 16,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x3 24,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x4+Kamehameha 32,000 Krillin 1,083 - max 1,770 Nappa 4,000 Piccolo 1,220 - max 3,500 Saibamen 1,200 Tien 1,830 Vegeta 18,000 Oozaru 180,000 Yamcha 1,480
Time: Freeza Saga Gohan 1,500 Gohan after Guru charge 12,500 Gohan after Senzu Heal 17,000 Gohan while fighting Freeza 20,000 Krillin 1,500 Krillin after Guru's charge 11,000 Krillin after Senzu Heal 16,500 Krillin after Dende's Heal 19,000 Freeza's Henchmen 500 Kui 19,000 Dodoria 21,000 Zarbon 23,000 - Transformed 33,000 Vegeta 24,000 Vegeta after Zarbon Fight 35,000 Vegeta after Recoome Fight 300,000 Vegeta after Krillin's Attack 1,000,000 Guldo 10,000 Recoome 40,000 Burter 45,000 Jeice 50,000 Captain Ginyu 120,000 Ginyu In Goku's Body 23,000 Nail 42,000 Dende 10 Piccolo 200,000 Piccolo after fusion with Nail 800,000 Piccolo after Dende Heal 1,500,000 Goku 5,000 Goku after gravity training 180,000 Goku after Ginyu fight 300,000 Goku kaio-Ken x10 3,000,000 Goku kaio-Ken x20 6,000,000 Goku Super Saiyan 15,000,000 Freiza 530,000 Freiza form 2 1,000,000 Freiza form 3 2,500,000 Freiza final Form 4,000,000 Freiza 50% of max 6,000,000 Freiza 70% of max 8,400,000 Freiza 100% of max 12,000,000
Time: Garlic Jr. Saga Garlic Jr. 1,000,000 Garlic Jr. transformed 4,000,000 Gohan 900,000 Gohan really masenko 4,500,000 Kami 300,000 Krillin 600,000 Piccolo 2,000,000
Time: Trunks Saga Vegeta 4,000,000 Piccolo 3,000,000 Gohan 1,000,000 Krillin 750,000 Tien 800,000 Yamcha 700,000 Chaozu 500,000 Freeza's Henchmen 5,000 Freeza bot 12,500,000 King Cold 13,000,000 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 18,000,000 Surpressed 5 Super Saiya-jin Goku 20,000,000
Time: Android Saga Super Saiyan Goku 23,000,000 Goku sick 5,000,000 Goku after room of spirit and time 110,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 25,000,000 Vegeta after room of spirit and time 90,000,00 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 20,000,000 Trunks Ultra Super Saiyan 130,000,000 Piccolo 18,000,000 Piccolo after fusion with Kami 40,000,000 Gohan 6,000,000 Gohan after room of spirit and time 120,000,000 Krillin 4,500,000 Tien 4,000,000 Yamcha 3,000,000 Android 16 40,000,000 Android 17 35,000,000 Android 18 35,000,000 Android 19 10,000,000 Android 20 5,000,000 Cell 35,000,000 Cell after absorbing humans 45,000,000 Cell after absorbing Android 17 65,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000
Time: Cell Saga Super Saiyan Trunks 105,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 100,000,000 Super Saiyan Gohan 130,000,000 SSJ2 Gohan 325,000,000 Super Saiyan Goku 120,000,000 Piccolo 60,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
Majin Buu Saga
Fat Buu: 45,000,000 Majin Buu: 80,000,000 Good Buu: 55,000,000 Bad Buu: 65,000,000 Super Buu: 70,000,000 Ultimate Buu: 50,000,000 Majin Gotunks Buu: 90,000,000 Majin Veggetto Buu: 100,000,000 Goku: 5,000,000 Goku: super saiyan: 27,000,000 Goku: super saiyan 2: 49,500,000 Goku: super saiyan 3: 79,999,999 Goku: genki-dama: 100,000,000 Piccolo: 26,000,000 Gohan: 3,000,000 Gohan: super saiyan: 25,000,000 Gohan: with the Z sword: 53,000,000 Goten: 1,500,000 Goten: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Trunks: 1,500,000 Trunks: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Gotunks: 3,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan: 20,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan 3: 75,000,000 Vegeta: 5,000,000 Vegeta: super saiyan: 26,500,000 Vegeta: super saiyan 2: 49,000,000 Veggetto: 10,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan: 53,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000
There are tons of things wrong in your list, especially during the Cell and Buu Saga, somehow everyone in Buu is weaker than Perfect Cell, when obviously that is not true. Even SSJ 3 Goku is weaker than Cell, who got his ass handed by SSJ2 Gohan. It's fun to make up numbers, but the official formulas have been ignored real badly.
On September 24 2013 05:30 omgimonfire15 wrote: What I have always wanted to know is how power levels translate to speed, strength, endurance, etc. For instance, if it is strictly linear and power levels relate to speed, shouldn't everyone be many times the speed of light at the end of the series? If this is the case, why can cell trick them with solar flare?
Their speed isn't even close to reaching relativistic speeds which is why characters that can approach the speed of light such as Superman would rape them in a fight.
The relative feat we have is Gotenks went around the world a couple times and took a short nap before going to fight Buu.... so lets be generous and say he took at 20 minute nap of his 30 minute time limit and leaves a few minutes to fight Buu.
That leaves circling the earth a couple times in a couple minutes to multiple minutes which is much much much much slower than the speed of light which goes around the earth 7 times in one second.
Additionally, it takes all of the characters multiple minutes to arrive to these fights, which if they were moving anywhere close to the speed of light they should be able to near instantly reach these fights.
The translation that they were moving many times the speed of light (I think it was raditz or someone in the anime) is completely wrong.
Strength isn't that measurable except for the heavy weights and extra gravity but that's earlier in the series so you can't really put a number on it unfortunately.
On September 24 2013 05:33 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: Just going through the list you have alot of numbers that are way off. Example is Goku super sayain during Freiza saga is 15 million not 150 million. So you can make alot of adjustments on it.
I've attached a spoiler below with the correct numbering from DBZ (if you want a DB and a GT let me know. Even though GT is a total failure.)
Time: Raditz Battle Farmer 5 Gohan 1-710 Gohan really angry 1, 130 Goku 334 Goku without heavy clothes 416 Goku Kamehameha 924 Krillin 206 Master Roshi 160 Piccolo 322 Piccolo without weighted clothes 408 Piccolo Makankosappo (first try) 1,330 Piccolo Makankosappo (second try) 1,440 Raditz 1,200 Tien 250 Turtle 0.001 Yamcha 177
Time: Saiya-jin Battle Chaozu 610 Gohan 981 Masenko 2,800 Oozaru 9,810-28,000 Goku 5,000 Goku charged up 8,000 Goku Kaio-Ken 12,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x2 16,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x3 24,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x4+Kamehameha 32,000 Krillin 1,083 - max 1,770 Nappa 4,000 Piccolo 1,220 - max 3,500 Saibamen 1,200 Tien 1,830 Vegeta 18,000 Oozaru 180,000 Yamcha 1,480
Time: Freeza Saga Gohan 1,500 Gohan after Guru charge 12,500 Gohan after Senzu Heal 17,000 Gohan while fighting Freeza 20,000 Krillin 1,500 Krillin after Guru's charge 11,000 Krillin after Senzu Heal 16,500 Krillin after Dende's Heal 19,000 Freeza's Henchmen 500 Kui 19,000 Dodoria 21,000 Zarbon 23,000 - Transformed 33,000 Vegeta 24,000 Vegeta after Zarbon Fight 35,000 Vegeta after Recoome Fight 300,000 Vegeta after Krillin's Attack 1,000,000 Guldo 10,000 Recoome 40,000 Burter 45,000 Jeice 50,000 Captain Ginyu 120,000 Ginyu In Goku's Body 23,000 Nail 42,000 Dende 10 Piccolo 200,000 Piccolo after fusion with Nail 800,000 Piccolo after Dende Heal 1,500,000 Goku 5,000 Goku after gravity training 180,000 Goku after Ginyu fight 300,000 Goku kaio-Ken x10 3,000,000 Goku kaio-Ken x20 6,000,000 Goku Super Saiyan 15,000,000 Freiza 530,000 Freiza form 2 1,000,000 Freiza form 3 2,500,000 Freiza final Form 4,000,000 Freiza 50% of max 6,000,000 Freiza 70% of max 8,400,000 Freiza 100% of max 12,000,000
Time: Garlic Jr. Saga Garlic Jr. 1,000,000 Garlic Jr. transformed 4,000,000 Gohan 900,000 Gohan really masenko 4,500,000 Kami 300,000 Krillin 600,000 Piccolo 2,000,000
Time: Trunks Saga Vegeta 4,000,000 Piccolo 3,000,000 Gohan 1,000,000 Krillin 750,000 Tien 800,000 Yamcha 700,000 Chaozu 500,000 Freeza's Henchmen 5,000 Freeza bot 12,500,000 King Cold 13,000,000 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 18,000,000 Surpressed 5 Super Saiya-jin Goku 20,000,000
Time: Android Saga Super Saiyan Goku 23,000,000 Goku sick 5,000,000 Goku after room of spirit and time 110,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 25,000,000 Vegeta after room of spirit and time 90,000,00 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 20,000,000 Trunks Ultra Super Saiyan 130,000,000 Piccolo 18,000,000 Piccolo after fusion with Kami 40,000,000 Gohan 6,000,000 Gohan after room of spirit and time 120,000,000 Krillin 4,500,000 Tien 4,000,000 Yamcha 3,000,000 Android 16 40,000,000 Android 17 35,000,000 Android 18 35,000,000 Android 19 10,000,000 Android 20 5,000,000 Cell 35,000,000 Cell after absorbing humans 45,000,000 Cell after absorbing Android 17 65,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000
Time: Cell Saga Super Saiyan Trunks 105,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 100,000,000 Super Saiyan Gohan 130,000,000 SSJ2 Gohan 325,000,000 Super Saiyan Goku 120,000,000 Piccolo 60,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
Majin Buu Saga
Fat Buu: 45,000,000 Majin Buu: 80,000,000 Good Buu: 55,000,000 Bad Buu: 65,000,000 Super Buu: 70,000,000 Ultimate Buu: 50,000,000 Majin Gotunks Buu: 90,000,000 Majin Veggetto Buu: 100,000,000 Goku: 5,000,000 Goku: super saiyan: 27,000,000 Goku: super saiyan 2: 49,500,000 Goku: super saiyan 3: 79,999,999 Goku: genki-dama: 100,000,000 Piccolo: 26,000,000 Gohan: 3,000,000 Gohan: super saiyan: 25,000,000 Gohan: with the Z sword: 53,000,000 Goten: 1,500,000 Goten: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Trunks: 1,500,000 Trunks: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Gotunks: 3,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan: 20,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan 3: 75,000,000 Vegeta: 5,000,000 Vegeta: super saiyan: 26,500,000 Vegeta: super saiyan 2: 49,000,000 Veggetto: 10,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan: 53,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000
There are tons of things wrong in your list, especially during the Cell and Buu Saga, somehow everyone in Buu is weaker than Perfect Cell, when obviously that is not true. Even SSJ 3 Goku is weaker than Cell, who got his ass handed by SSJ2 Gohan. It's fun to make up numbers, but the official formulas have been ignored real badly.
agree with this especially this part: Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000 Perfect cell: 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
My thoughts were, what? cell is stronger than vegitto? The character who played around with Super Buu even kicking his ass when he was a piece of candy XD
On September 24 2013 05:33 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: Just going through the list you have alot of numbers that are way off. Example is Goku super sayain during Freiza saga is 15 million not 150 million. So you can make alot of adjustments on it.
I've attached a spoiler below with the correct numbering from DBZ (if you want a DB and a GT let me know. Even though GT is a total failure.)
Time: Raditz Battle Farmer 5 Gohan 1-710 Gohan really angry 1, 130 Goku 334 Goku without heavy clothes 416 Goku Kamehameha 924 Krillin 206 Master Roshi 160 Piccolo 322 Piccolo without weighted clothes 408 Piccolo Makankosappo (first try) 1,330 Piccolo Makankosappo (second try) 1,440 Raditz 1,200 Tien 250 Turtle 0.001 Yamcha 177
Time: Saiya-jin Battle Chaozu 610 Gohan 981 Masenko 2,800 Oozaru 9,810-28,000 Goku 5,000 Goku charged up 8,000 Goku Kaio-Ken 12,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x2 16,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x3 24,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x4+Kamehameha 32,000 Krillin 1,083 - max 1,770 Nappa 4,000 Piccolo 1,220 - max 3,500 Saibamen 1,200 Tien 1,830 Vegeta 18,000 Oozaru 180,000 Yamcha 1,480
Time: Freeza Saga Gohan 1,500 Gohan after Guru charge 12,500 Gohan after Senzu Heal 17,000 Gohan while fighting Freeza 20,000 Krillin 1,500 Krillin after Guru's charge 11,000 Krillin after Senzu Heal 16,500 Krillin after Dende's Heal 19,000 Freeza's Henchmen 500 Kui 19,000 Dodoria 21,000 Zarbon 23,000 - Transformed 33,000 Vegeta 24,000 Vegeta after Zarbon Fight 35,000 Vegeta after Recoome Fight 300,000 Vegeta after Krillin's Attack 1,000,000 Guldo 10,000 Recoome 40,000 Burter 45,000 Jeice 50,000 Captain Ginyu 120,000 Ginyu In Goku's Body 23,000 Nail 42,000 Dende 10 Piccolo 200,000 Piccolo after fusion with Nail 800,000 Piccolo after Dende Heal 1,500,000 Goku 5,000 Goku after gravity training 180,000 Goku after Ginyu fight 300,000 Goku kaio-Ken x10 3,000,000 Goku kaio-Ken x20 6,000,000 Goku Super Saiyan 15,000,000 Freiza 530,000 Freiza form 2 1,000,000 Freiza form 3 2,500,000 Freiza final Form 4,000,000 Freiza 50% of max 6,000,000 Freiza 70% of max 8,400,000 Freiza 100% of max 12,000,000
Time: Garlic Jr. Saga Garlic Jr. 1,000,000 Garlic Jr. transformed 4,000,000 Gohan 900,000 Gohan really masenko 4,500,000 Kami 300,000 Krillin 600,000 Piccolo 2,000,000
Time: Trunks Saga Vegeta 4,000,000 Piccolo 3,000,000 Gohan 1,000,000 Krillin 750,000 Tien 800,000 Yamcha 700,000 Chaozu 500,000 Freeza's Henchmen 5,000 Freeza bot 12,500,000 King Cold 13,000,000 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 18,000,000 Surpressed 5 Super Saiya-jin Goku 20,000,000
Time: Android Saga Super Saiyan Goku 23,000,000 Goku sick 5,000,000 Goku after room of spirit and time 110,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 25,000,000 Vegeta after room of spirit and time 90,000,00 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 20,000,000 Trunks Ultra Super Saiyan 130,000,000 Piccolo 18,000,000 Piccolo after fusion with Kami 40,000,000 Gohan 6,000,000 Gohan after room of spirit and time 120,000,000 Krillin 4,500,000 Tien 4,000,000 Yamcha 3,000,000 Android 16 40,000,000 Android 17 35,000,000 Android 18 35,000,000 Android 19 10,000,000 Android 20 5,000,000 Cell 35,000,000 Cell after absorbing humans 45,000,000 Cell after absorbing Android 17 65,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000
Time: Cell Saga Super Saiyan Trunks 105,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 100,000,000 Super Saiyan Gohan 130,000,000 SSJ2 Gohan 325,000,000 Super Saiyan Goku 120,000,000 Piccolo 60,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
Majin Buu Saga
Fat Buu: 45,000,000 Majin Buu: 80,000,000 Good Buu: 55,000,000 Bad Buu: 65,000,000 Super Buu: 70,000,000 Ultimate Buu: 50,000,000 Majin Gotunks Buu: 90,000,000 Majin Veggetto Buu: 100,000,000 Goku: 5,000,000 Goku: super saiyan: 27,000,000 Goku: super saiyan 2: 49,500,000 Goku: super saiyan 3: 79,999,999 Goku: genki-dama: 100,000,000 Piccolo: 26,000,000 Gohan: 3,000,000 Gohan: super saiyan: 25,000,000 Gohan: with the Z sword: 53,000,000 Goten: 1,500,000 Goten: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Trunks: 1,500,000 Trunks: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Gotunks: 3,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan: 20,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan 3: 75,000,000 Vegeta: 5,000,000 Vegeta: super saiyan: 26,500,000 Vegeta: super saiyan 2: 49,000,000 Veggetto: 10,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan: 53,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000
There are tons of things wrong in your list, especially during the Cell and Buu Saga, somehow everyone in Buu is weaker than Perfect Cell, when obviously that is not true. Even SSJ 3 Goku is weaker than Cell, who got his ass handed by SSJ2 Gohan. It's fun to make up numbers, but the official formulas have been ignored real badly.
agree with this especially this part: Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000 Perfect cell: 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
My thoughts were, what? cell is stronger than vegitto? The character who played around with Super Buu even kicking his ass when he was a piece of candy XD
On September 23 2013 19:49 Tobberoth wrote: It's not trolling, Akira Toriyama officially released powerlevels and put final form Frieza at 12 million while SSJ Goku sits at 15 million. It might not be logical, but it is official.
I'll solve this problem with commonly used magic I call analytical comparison and basic math.
Frieza form 2 is over 1 million. (Not debatable) Piccolo is stronger than Frieza Form 2, therefore, Piccolo is also over 1 million. (Not debatable.) In Goku's initial fight versus Frieza's final form, Piccolo states this is a fight outside of our league/realm of understanding. Also, at this point, Goku has yet to use Kaioken (the art's pretty noticeable), therefore, any number short of 1 million can't be debated to be true unless you live in a world where math doesn't exist. Goku uses Kaioken x20, and blows a Kamehameha at Frieza. Frieza blocks it with his hand, while claiming to be at 50% the entire time. Goku says he wasn't bluffing after all. This means, even if Frieza was wrong, he's not far off from being at 50% of his actual power. Ergo, 1+ million x 20 <= 50% Frieza, meaning Frieza's strength exceeds 40 million.
Conclusion, doesn't quite matter if you don't believe Frieza to be at 120 million, you STILL can NEVER debate if you have any common sense that Frieza is anything short of 40 million at full power, meaning the 12 million power level publication is absolute bullshit or we're dealing with a different type of math that's not linear, which isn't true since AT isn't a mathematician and likely could never create such a formula to account for those numbers (and likely wouldn't care to, because to him, it's simple strength comparisons instead of throwing numbers on everything like I did, which means some of the stuff he wrote doesn't seem as ridiculous cause he never assigned a number to it). We assigned numbers to the characters after the creation of the story, which WILL create some weird numbers because of the multipliers at work. You could easily get away with it until someone stronger than a SS2 can go SS and even SS3 on top of it.
On September 24 2013 05:33 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: Just going through the list you have alot of numbers that are way off. Example is Goku super sayain during Freiza saga is 15 million not 150 million. So you can make alot of adjustments on it.
I've attached a spoiler below with the correct numbering from DBZ (if you want a DB and a GT let me know. Even though GT is a total failure.)
Sorry you did all that work, but... The math and analysis I just did above means... Well... Your list is WAYYYYYYYYYYYY off... Ignoring all the inconsistencies everyone else pointed out before I even looked at it. It is mathematically impossible for Frieza to be 12 million at full power. Not improbable, not unlikely, not unimaginable, IMPOSSIBLE. Though you never made that statement, would you care to explain how Goku at 15 million could beat Frieza at 40+ million (and that's absolute minimal estimation) to the point where he could say, "I'm done. I know your pride is shattered by seeing someone stronger than you, and that's enough". If you could explain that, then we all might as well quit the numbers business with DBZ (yeah, we should've quit a long time ago, but hey it's fun and we can post numbers that mostly work with the storyline; yes some people pointing out things where we can only use the explanation of "plot", cause AT don't work with no numbers yo).
On September 23 2013 22:07 Greenei wrote: I think Nappa needs to be higher, otherwise Piccolo could've dealt with him more easily. Also in Androidsaga SSJ Goku without desease should be better then SSJ Vegeta, because there is no reason to assume that Vegeta overtook Goku. ANd after the 1 year training Goku would obviously kick Vegetas butt.
There was a listing of Nappa being at 7,500 at max power. I avoid it cause I can't find a manga citation, and forgot where it came from. If I find something somewhat reliable, I'll put it up with a note next to it.
Oh, and Piccolo says he's probably stronger than Goku. I think Kami might've said it too. Piccolo trained with Goku for 3 years, and before mastered Super Saiyan, the Super Saiyan form is your max strength, you can't lower the strength without being injured or drained on energy (otherwise the mastered Super Saiyan shown during the Cell Games would have no meaning other than: plot). Basically, what I'm getting at is, Piccolo should have a pretty good idea of how strong Goku in Super Saiyan form should be.
On September 23 2013 17:12 zeo wrote: Great thread. I was wondering, what would the power levels in the original Dragon Ball be like? Like Goku in monkey form ect.
Monkey form Goku in its first appearance is at 100, base Goku at the start of DBZ is 10. Tien vs Goku, both were 180. Vs Piccolo Sr., both were 260. Off the top of my head. I might add a Dragonball section because I think Shonen Jump did throw out power levels for the DB characters. I just prefer not to cite numbers unless it was explicitly in the manga, implied in the manga, or Daizenshuu.
On September 23 2013 11:51 RyLai wrote: 1) Now you know why the Buu Saga is the least liked saga for hardcore DBZ fans. 2) Piccolo uses the split technique (whatever it's called). So he can constantly train with someone of equal strength, and probably reap twice the benefits (that second part is a guess, probably not true). The Saiyans NEVER train with each other with the exception of Goku and Gohan, who for that period have shown the greatest growth rate in all of DBZ aside from anyone named Piccolo. And Goku started off training Gohan to basically be as strong as him. So now it doesn't seem as awkward for Piccolo to have more efficient training methods now does it? 3) Piccolo would likely not share his training methods with Goku if he can avoid it. His goal is STILL to be the strongest of them all, even if world domination is still no longer part of his aims. But the fact is, even if he told Goku to use the split form technique, would Goku do it? No, cause he can't!
.
1) Ive always hated the Buu saga. 2) Everyone knows the split technique, and so Goku could do the same thing. Piccolo also knew this technique long before SSJ, and yet couldnt keep pace with Goku's training. Goku and Gohan also were implied to have trained together during the wait for the Androids, yet, again, by the power level increase Piccolo was easily more than doubling them. Through a technique they already knew? Your grasping at straws and you know it. 3) Theres no hint of him being a meglomaniac at all after he renounces his past, and [multiple times at that] the DBZ fighters arent training 'to be the best', but literally to defeat incoming threats which will kill them all and burn the planet to the ground. Whatever degree of warrior pride Piccolo had doesnt extend that far, hes not Vegeta for crying out loud.
4) Ive never heard anything about Goku not knowing split form, and given he learned the Kamamah wave [and basically everything, ever] in a split second, I highly doubt he cant do it. And more importantly, Tien/Krillin etc also know this technique, and should be able to outpace base sayans using it just as Piccolo did, but they fell behind instead. Unless this split form technique is only one "mysterious" part of Piccolos "mysterious" but never before mentioned and randomly discovered and never transmitted training regimine, inbetween the freiza and android sagas--- which he randomly stopped using despite increasing at dramatic rates that would surely see him surpass SSJ2 long before the Buu Saga.
Sorry, no matter what way you splice it, whatever excuse is eventually banked on, its just contrived nonsense for bad writing. DBZ was entertaining as a kid but its not really a workable anime/manga in a rigid sense.
I've yet to see Goku or Krillin use that technique in the manga, or even the anime. You must be referring to the afterimage technique. It's not even remotely close to the same thing. Looking back though, I haven't seen Piccolo use it in the manga. May have gotten that mixed up with the anime. Either way, plot. I'm not here to explain HOW they got this strong, just saying they're roughly this strong. How exactly they got there, you'd have to ask AT, and I'm willing to bet he'd either forgotten or he'd have to take some time to give a good reason you wouldn't even care to take, because everyone knowing the split technique is bullshit too, unless you'd like to cite the page where each of the characters uses it for me?
After the fight with 17 and 18, Krillin says he feels like Piccolo's motivation is the just to be the strongest, rather than world domination. I don't have access to Japanese raws, and my Japanese isn't good enough to confirm it 100% even if I did, so I might be subject to mistranslation.
On September 23 2013 19:19 shin_toss wrote: What does SSJ mean? I only followed til Buu saga
Super Saiyajin, the japanese term for super saiyan.
Yes, Ultimate Gohan and Mystic Gohan refers to the same form. I don't think it's actually ever named in the series, fans started calling it Mystic Gohan and then it was called "Ultimate gohan" in some video games.
I saw one of the "databooks" (or maybe it was a Shonen Jump page) list it as Ultimate Gohan in Japanese. Could be the influence of the game though. I just took the Japanese name for it cause Ultimate Gohan being the strongest fighter sounds better than Mystic Gohan being the strongest fighter, cause one's "Ultimate".
On September 23 2013 19:37 SolidMoose wrote: These numbers are way bigger than any other list I've seen. Particularly, the huge jump starts at Frieza where I've read 6 million at 50%, not 60 million. I've seen those same numbers, just with one less 0.
Just did the math my love. Probably going to add that to the OP cause I'm tired of people with 0 research who don't care to analyze the situation themselves keep throwing this out there when there are more important issues to discuss, like whether SS kid Trunks could land a punch of SS Vegeta's face even if all Vegeta was doing was dodging. Seriously, there are more important issues to discuss that could make this list more accurate and we're arguing about Goku and Frieza not being in the 100 million zone...
On September 24 2013 05:33 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: Just going through the list you have alot of numbers that are way off. Example is Goku super sayain during Freiza saga is 15 million not 150 million. So you can make alot of adjustments on it.
I've attached a spoiler below with the correct numbering from DBZ (if you want a DB and a GT let me know. Even though GT is a total failure.)
Time: Raditz Battle Farmer 5 Gohan 1-710 Gohan really angry 1, 130 Goku 334 Goku without heavy clothes 416 Goku Kamehameha 924 Krillin 206 Master Roshi 160 Piccolo 322 Piccolo without weighted clothes 408 Piccolo Makankosappo (first try) 1,330 Piccolo Makankosappo (second try) 1,440 Raditz 1,200 Tien 250 Turtle 0.001 Yamcha 177
Time: Saiya-jin Battle Chaozu 610 Gohan 981 Masenko 2,800 Oozaru 9,810-28,000 Goku 5,000 Goku charged up 8,000 Goku Kaio-Ken 12,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x2 16,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x3 24,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x4+Kamehameha 32,000 Krillin 1,083 - max 1,770 Nappa 4,000 Piccolo 1,220 - max 3,500 Saibamen 1,200 Tien 1,830 Vegeta 18,000 Oozaru 180,000 Yamcha 1,480
Time: Freeza Saga Gohan 1,500 Gohan after Guru charge 12,500 Gohan after Senzu Heal 17,000 Gohan while fighting Freeza 20,000 Krillin 1,500 Krillin after Guru's charge 11,000 Krillin after Senzu Heal 16,500 Krillin after Dende's Heal 19,000 Freeza's Henchmen 500 Kui 19,000 Dodoria 21,000 Zarbon 23,000 - Transformed 33,000 Vegeta 24,000 Vegeta after Zarbon Fight 35,000 Vegeta after Recoome Fight 300,000 Vegeta after Krillin's Attack 1,000,000 Guldo 10,000 Recoome 40,000 Burter 45,000 Jeice 50,000 Captain Ginyu 120,000 Ginyu In Goku's Body 23,000 Nail 42,000 Dende 10 Piccolo 200,000 Piccolo after fusion with Nail 800,000 Piccolo after Dende Heal 1,500,000 Goku 5,000 Goku after gravity training 180,000 Goku after Ginyu fight 300,000 Goku kaio-Ken x10 3,000,000 Goku kaio-Ken x20 6,000,000 Goku Super Saiyan 15,000,000 Freiza 530,000 Freiza form 2 1,000,000 Freiza form 3 2,500,000 Freiza final Form 4,000,000 Freiza 50% of max 6,000,000 Freiza 70% of max 8,400,000 Freiza 100% of max 12,000,000
Time: Garlic Jr. Saga Garlic Jr. 1,000,000 Garlic Jr. transformed 4,000,000 Gohan 900,000 Gohan really masenko 4,500,000 Kami 300,000 Krillin 600,000 Piccolo 2,000,000
Time: Trunks Saga Vegeta 4,000,000 Piccolo 3,000,000 Gohan 1,000,000 Krillin 750,000 Tien 800,000 Yamcha 700,000 Chaozu 500,000 Freeza's Henchmen 5,000 Freeza bot 12,500,000 King Cold 13,000,000 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 18,000,000 Surpressed 5 Super Saiya-jin Goku 20,000,000
Time: Android Saga Super Saiyan Goku 23,000,000 Goku sick 5,000,000 Goku after room of spirit and time 110,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 25,000,000 Vegeta after room of spirit and time 90,000,00 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 20,000,000 Trunks Ultra Super Saiyan 130,000,000 Piccolo 18,000,000 Piccolo after fusion with Kami 40,000,000 Gohan 6,000,000 Gohan after room of spirit and time 120,000,000 Krillin 4,500,000 Tien 4,000,000 Yamcha 3,000,000 Android 16 40,000,000 Android 17 35,000,000 Android 18 35,000,000 Android 19 10,000,000 Android 20 5,000,000 Cell 35,000,000 Cell after absorbing humans 45,000,000 Cell after absorbing Android 17 65,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000
Time: Cell Saga Super Saiyan Trunks 105,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 100,000,000 Super Saiyan Gohan 130,000,000 SSJ2 Gohan 325,000,000 Super Saiyan Goku 120,000,000 Piccolo 60,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
Majin Buu Saga
Fat Buu: 45,000,000 Majin Buu: 80,000,000 Good Buu: 55,000,000 Bad Buu: 65,000,000 Super Buu: 70,000,000 Ultimate Buu: 50,000,000 Majin Gotunks Buu: 90,000,000 Majin Veggetto Buu: 100,000,000 Goku: 5,000,000 Goku: super saiyan: 27,000,000 Goku: super saiyan 2: 49,500,000 Goku: super saiyan 3: 79,999,999 Goku: genki-dama: 100,000,000 Piccolo: 26,000,000 Gohan: 3,000,000 Gohan: super saiyan: 25,000,000 Gohan: with the Z sword: 53,000,000 Goten: 1,500,000 Goten: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Trunks: 1,500,000 Trunks: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Gotunks: 3,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan: 20,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan 3: 75,000,000 Vegeta: 5,000,000 Vegeta: super saiyan: 26,500,000 Vegeta: super saiyan 2: 49,000,000 Veggetto: 10,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan: 53,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000
There are tons of things wrong in your list, especially during the Cell and Buu Saga, somehow everyone in Buu is weaker than Perfect Cell, when obviously that is not true. Even SSJ 3 Goku is weaker than Cell, who got his ass handed by SSJ2 Gohan. It's fun to make up numbers, but the official formulas have been ignored real badly.
agree with this especially this part: Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000 Perfect cell: 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
My thoughts were, what? cell is stronger than vegitto? The character who played around with Super Buu even kicking his ass when he was a piece of candy XD
To be fair he was a jaw breaker.
One of the problems with the assumption that "Frieza must be XX" etc, is what if DBZ fighting is like Tennis? In tennis, even being slightly better at the game results in total domination.
On September 24 2013 05:33 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: Just going through the list you have alot of numbers that are way off. Example is Goku super sayain during Freiza saga is 15 million not 150 million. So you can make alot of adjustments on it.
I've attached a spoiler below with the correct numbering from DBZ (if you want a DB and a GT let me know. Even though GT is a total failure.)
Time: Raditz Battle Farmer 5 Gohan 1-710 Gohan really angry 1, 130 Goku 334 Goku without heavy clothes 416 Goku Kamehameha 924 Krillin 206 Master Roshi 160 Piccolo 322 Piccolo without weighted clothes 408 Piccolo Makankosappo (first try) 1,330 Piccolo Makankosappo (second try) 1,440 Raditz 1,200 Tien 250 Turtle 0.001 Yamcha 177
Time: Saiya-jin Battle Chaozu 610 Gohan 981 Masenko 2,800 Oozaru 9,810-28,000 Goku 5,000 Goku charged up 8,000 Goku Kaio-Ken 12,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x2 16,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x3 24,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x4+Kamehameha 32,000 Krillin 1,083 - max 1,770 Nappa 4,000 Piccolo 1,220 - max 3,500 Saibamen 1,200 Tien 1,830 Vegeta 18,000 Oozaru 180,000 Yamcha 1,480
Time: Freeza Saga Gohan 1,500 Gohan after Guru charge 12,500 Gohan after Senzu Heal 17,000 Gohan while fighting Freeza 20,000 Krillin 1,500 Krillin after Guru's charge 11,000 Krillin after Senzu Heal 16,500 Krillin after Dende's Heal 19,000 Freeza's Henchmen 500 Kui 19,000 Dodoria 21,000 Zarbon 23,000 - Transformed 33,000 Vegeta 24,000 Vegeta after Zarbon Fight 35,000 Vegeta after Recoome Fight 300,000 Vegeta after Krillin's Attack 1,000,000 Guldo 10,000 Recoome 40,000 Burter 45,000 Jeice 50,000 Captain Ginyu 120,000 Ginyu In Goku's Body 23,000 Nail 42,000 Dende 10 Piccolo 200,000 Piccolo after fusion with Nail 800,000 Piccolo after Dende Heal 1,500,000 Goku 5,000 Goku after gravity training 180,000 Goku after Ginyu fight 300,000 Goku kaio-Ken x10 3,000,000 Goku kaio-Ken x20 6,000,000 Goku Super Saiyan 15,000,000 Freiza 530,000 Freiza form 2 1,000,000 Freiza form 3 2,500,000 Freiza final Form 4,000,000 Freiza 50% of max 6,000,000 Freiza 70% of max 8,400,000 Freiza 100% of max 12,000,000
Time: Garlic Jr. Saga Garlic Jr. 1,000,000 Garlic Jr. transformed 4,000,000 Gohan 900,000 Gohan really masenko 4,500,000 Kami 300,000 Krillin 600,000 Piccolo 2,000,000
Time: Trunks Saga Vegeta 4,000,000 Piccolo 3,000,000 Gohan 1,000,000 Krillin 750,000 Tien 800,000 Yamcha 700,000 Chaozu 500,000 Freeza's Henchmen 5,000 Freeza bot 12,500,000 King Cold 13,000,000 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 18,000,000 Surpressed 5 Super Saiya-jin Goku 20,000,000
Time: Android Saga Super Saiyan Goku 23,000,000 Goku sick 5,000,000 Goku after room of spirit and time 110,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 25,000,000 Vegeta after room of spirit and time 90,000,00 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 20,000,000 Trunks Ultra Super Saiyan 130,000,000 Piccolo 18,000,000 Piccolo after fusion with Kami 40,000,000 Gohan 6,000,000 Gohan after room of spirit and time 120,000,000 Krillin 4,500,000 Tien 4,000,000 Yamcha 3,000,000 Android 16 40,000,000 Android 17 35,000,000 Android 18 35,000,000 Android 19 10,000,000 Android 20 5,000,000 Cell 35,000,000 Cell after absorbing humans 45,000,000 Cell after absorbing Android 17 65,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000
Time: Cell Saga Super Saiyan Trunks 105,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 100,000,000 Super Saiyan Gohan 130,000,000 SSJ2 Gohan 325,000,000 Super Saiyan Goku 120,000,000 Piccolo 60,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
Majin Buu Saga
Fat Buu: 45,000,000 Majin Buu: 80,000,000 Good Buu: 55,000,000 Bad Buu: 65,000,000 Super Buu: 70,000,000 Ultimate Buu: 50,000,000 Majin Gotunks Buu: 90,000,000 Majin Veggetto Buu: 100,000,000 Goku: 5,000,000 Goku: super saiyan: 27,000,000 Goku: super saiyan 2: 49,500,000 Goku: super saiyan 3: 79,999,999 Goku: genki-dama: 100,000,000 Piccolo: 26,000,000 Gohan: 3,000,000 Gohan: super saiyan: 25,000,000 Gohan: with the Z sword: 53,000,000 Goten: 1,500,000 Goten: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Trunks: 1,500,000 Trunks: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Gotunks: 3,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan: 20,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan 3: 75,000,000 Vegeta: 5,000,000 Vegeta: super saiyan: 26,500,000 Vegeta: super saiyan 2: 49,000,000 Veggetto: 10,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan: 53,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000
There are tons of things wrong in your list, especially during the Cell and Buu Saga, somehow everyone in Buu is weaker than Perfect Cell, when obviously that is not true. Even SSJ 3 Goku is weaker than Cell, who got his ass handed by SSJ2 Gohan. It's fun to make up numbers, but the official formulas have been ignored real badly.
agree with this especially this part: Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000 Perfect cell: 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
My thoughts were, what? cell is stronger than vegitto? The character who played around with Super Buu even kicking his ass when he was a piece of candy XD
To be fair he was a jaw breaker.
One of the problems with the assumption that "Frieza must be XX" etc, is what if DBZ fighting is like Tennis? In tennis, even being slightly better at the game results in total domination.
Frieza MUST be at least a third of the stated power level given in the Daizenshuu. I just did the math. And being slightly better in tennis doesn't result in total domination unless we're talking about true NTRP ratings. A .5 difference in NTRP is actually a large difference in skill (one example is of it being the difference between an absolute beginner and someone who can actually hit the ball inside the lines somewhat consistently during practice). Also, with Tennis, physical performance varies a lot because there's always a luck factor (tennis at it's absolute core is a game of percentages, meaning nothing is absolute and being unlucky by itself can mean defeat in the worst case scenario) and that no NORMAL human can keep up the same level of performance for long periods of time (DBZ doesn't consist of normal humans though, or even humans for that matter).
On September 24 2013 05:33 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: Just going through the list you have alot of numbers that are way off. Example is Goku super sayain during Freiza saga is 15 million not 150 million. So you can make alot of adjustments on it.
I've attached a spoiler below with the correct numbering from DBZ (if you want a DB and a GT let me know. Even though GT is a total failure.)
Time: Raditz Battle Farmer 5 Gohan 1-710 Gohan really angry 1, 130 Goku 334 Goku without heavy clothes 416 Goku Kamehameha 924 Krillin 206 Master Roshi 160 Piccolo 322 Piccolo without weighted clothes 408 Piccolo Makankosappo (first try) 1,330 Piccolo Makankosappo (second try) 1,440 Raditz 1,200 Tien 250 Turtle 0.001 Yamcha 177
Time: Saiya-jin Battle Chaozu 610 Gohan 981 Masenko 2,800 Oozaru 9,810-28,000 Goku 5,000 Goku charged up 8,000 Goku Kaio-Ken 12,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x2 16,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x3 24,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x4+Kamehameha 32,000 Krillin 1,083 - max 1,770 Nappa 4,000 Piccolo 1,220 - max 3,500 Saibamen 1,200 Tien 1,830 Vegeta 18,000 Oozaru 180,000 Yamcha 1,480
Time: Freeza Saga Gohan 1,500 Gohan after Guru charge 12,500 Gohan after Senzu Heal 17,000 Gohan while fighting Freeza 20,000 Krillin 1,500 Krillin after Guru's charge 11,000 Krillin after Senzu Heal 16,500 Krillin after Dende's Heal 19,000 Freeza's Henchmen 500 Kui 19,000 Dodoria 21,000 Zarbon 23,000 - Transformed 33,000 Vegeta 24,000 Vegeta after Zarbon Fight 35,000 Vegeta after Recoome Fight 300,000 Vegeta after Krillin's Attack 1,000,000 Guldo 10,000 Recoome 40,000 Burter 45,000 Jeice 50,000 Captain Ginyu 120,000 Ginyu In Goku's Body 23,000 Nail 42,000 Dende 10 Piccolo 200,000 Piccolo after fusion with Nail 800,000 Piccolo after Dende Heal 1,500,000 Goku 5,000 Goku after gravity training 180,000 Goku after Ginyu fight 300,000 Goku kaio-Ken x10 3,000,000 Goku kaio-Ken x20 6,000,000 Goku Super Saiyan 15,000,000 Freiza 530,000 Freiza form 2 1,000,000 Freiza form 3 2,500,000 Freiza final Form 4,000,000 Freiza 50% of max 6,000,000 Freiza 70% of max 8,400,000 Freiza 100% of max 12,000,000
Time: Garlic Jr. Saga Garlic Jr. 1,000,000 Garlic Jr. transformed 4,000,000 Gohan 900,000 Gohan really masenko 4,500,000 Kami 300,000 Krillin 600,000 Piccolo 2,000,000
Time: Trunks Saga Vegeta 4,000,000 Piccolo 3,000,000 Gohan 1,000,000 Krillin 750,000 Tien 800,000 Yamcha 700,000 Chaozu 500,000 Freeza's Henchmen 5,000 Freeza bot 12,500,000 King Cold 13,000,000 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 18,000,000 Surpressed 5 Super Saiya-jin Goku 20,000,000
Time: Android Saga Super Saiyan Goku 23,000,000 Goku sick 5,000,000 Goku after room of spirit and time 110,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 25,000,000 Vegeta after room of spirit and time 90,000,00 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 20,000,000 Trunks Ultra Super Saiyan 130,000,000 Piccolo 18,000,000 Piccolo after fusion with Kami 40,000,000 Gohan 6,000,000 Gohan after room of spirit and time 120,000,000 Krillin 4,500,000 Tien 4,000,000 Yamcha 3,000,000 Android 16 40,000,000 Android 17 35,000,000 Android 18 35,000,000 Android 19 10,000,000 Android 20 5,000,000 Cell 35,000,000 Cell after absorbing humans 45,000,000 Cell after absorbing Android 17 65,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000
Time: Cell Saga Super Saiyan Trunks 105,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 100,000,000 Super Saiyan Gohan 130,000,000 SSJ2 Gohan 325,000,000 Super Saiyan Goku 120,000,000 Piccolo 60,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
Majin Buu Saga
Fat Buu: 45,000,000 Majin Buu: 80,000,000 Good Buu: 55,000,000 Bad Buu: 65,000,000 Super Buu: 70,000,000 Ultimate Buu: 50,000,000 Majin Gotunks Buu: 90,000,000 Majin Veggetto Buu: 100,000,000 Goku: 5,000,000 Goku: super saiyan: 27,000,000 Goku: super saiyan 2: 49,500,000 Goku: super saiyan 3: 79,999,999 Goku: genki-dama: 100,000,000 Piccolo: 26,000,000 Gohan: 3,000,000 Gohan: super saiyan: 25,000,000 Gohan: with the Z sword: 53,000,000 Goten: 1,500,000 Goten: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Trunks: 1,500,000 Trunks: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Gotunks: 3,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan: 20,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan 3: 75,000,000 Vegeta: 5,000,000 Vegeta: super saiyan: 26,500,000 Vegeta: super saiyan 2: 49,000,000 Veggetto: 10,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan: 53,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000
There are tons of things wrong in your list, especially during the Cell and Buu Saga, somehow everyone in Buu is weaker than Perfect Cell, when obviously that is not true. Even SSJ 3 Goku is weaker than Cell, who got his ass handed by SSJ2 Gohan. It's fun to make up numbers, but the official formulas have been ignored real badly.
agree with this especially this part: Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000 Perfect cell: 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
My thoughts were, what? cell is stronger than vegitto? The character who played around with Super Buu even kicking his ass when he was a piece of candy XD
To be fair he was a jaw breaker.
One of the problems with the assumption that "Frieza must be XX" etc, is what if DBZ fighting is like Tennis? In tennis, even being slightly better at the game results in total domination.
Frieza MUST be at least a third of the stated power level given in the Daizenshuu. I just did the math. And being slightly better in tennis doesn't result in total domination unless we're talking about true NTRP ratings. A .5 difference in NTRP is actually a large difference in skill (one example is of it being the difference between an absolute beginner and someone who can actually hit the ball inside the lines somewhat consistently during practice). Also, with Tennis, physical performance varies a lot because there's always a luck factor (tennis at it's absolute core is a game of percentages, meaning nothing is absolute and being unlucky by itself can mean defeat in the worst case scenario) and that no NORMAL human can keep up the same level of performance for long periods of time (DBZ doesn't consist of normal humans though, or even humans for that matter).
Let me just say it like this: I Can 6-0 6-0 my Brother, Who Can 6-0 6-0 my sister. There is no discernible difference between them to me. Now, the same is true for a pair of my friends who can crush me. 6-0 or 6-1. One of them has a brother who beats him 6-0/6-1 and our other friend Sam beats all of us easily 6-0. Now Sam is good, but any ATP pro would 6-0 his ass. And most of those get Dominated by a guy like Isner 6-0 or 6-1, and he gets slaughtered by guys like Nadal and Djoker.
And these are just regular humans we are talking about (basically all power lvl 5-6 in DBZ). The fact is, you dont have to be much stronger than another DBZ character to beat them. 1% might be able to do.
On top of that, I still think the Super Saiyan multipliers are BS post-initial-transformation.
On September 24 2013 05:33 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: Just going through the list you have alot of numbers that are way off. Example is Goku super sayain during Freiza saga is 15 million not 150 million. So you can make alot of adjustments on it.
I've attached a spoiler below with the correct numbering from DBZ (if you want a DB and a GT let me know. Even though GT is a total failure.)
Time: Raditz Battle Farmer 5 Gohan 1-710 Gohan really angry 1, 130 Goku 334 Goku without heavy clothes 416 Goku Kamehameha 924 Krillin 206 Master Roshi 160 Piccolo 322 Piccolo without weighted clothes 408 Piccolo Makankosappo (first try) 1,330 Piccolo Makankosappo (second try) 1,440 Raditz 1,200 Tien 250 Turtle 0.001 Yamcha 177
Time: Saiya-jin Battle Chaozu 610 Gohan 981 Masenko 2,800 Oozaru 9,810-28,000 Goku 5,000 Goku charged up 8,000 Goku Kaio-Ken 12,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x2 16,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x3 24,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x4+Kamehameha 32,000 Krillin 1,083 - max 1,770 Nappa 4,000 Piccolo 1,220 - max 3,500 Saibamen 1,200 Tien 1,830 Vegeta 18,000 Oozaru 180,000 Yamcha 1,480
Time: Freeza Saga Gohan 1,500 Gohan after Guru charge 12,500 Gohan after Senzu Heal 17,000 Gohan while fighting Freeza 20,000 Krillin 1,500 Krillin after Guru's charge 11,000 Krillin after Senzu Heal 16,500 Krillin after Dende's Heal 19,000 Freeza's Henchmen 500 Kui 19,000 Dodoria 21,000 Zarbon 23,000 - Transformed 33,000 Vegeta 24,000 Vegeta after Zarbon Fight 35,000 Vegeta after Recoome Fight 300,000 Vegeta after Krillin's Attack 1,000,000 Guldo 10,000 Recoome 40,000 Burter 45,000 Jeice 50,000 Captain Ginyu 120,000 Ginyu In Goku's Body 23,000 Nail 42,000 Dende 10 Piccolo 200,000 Piccolo after fusion with Nail 800,000 Piccolo after Dende Heal 1,500,000 Goku 5,000 Goku after gravity training 180,000 Goku after Ginyu fight 300,000 Goku kaio-Ken x10 3,000,000 Goku kaio-Ken x20 6,000,000 Goku Super Saiyan 15,000,000 Freiza 530,000 Freiza form 2 1,000,000 Freiza form 3 2,500,000 Freiza final Form 4,000,000 Freiza 50% of max 6,000,000 Freiza 70% of max 8,400,000 Freiza 100% of max 12,000,000
Time: Garlic Jr. Saga Garlic Jr. 1,000,000 Garlic Jr. transformed 4,000,000 Gohan 900,000 Gohan really masenko 4,500,000 Kami 300,000 Krillin 600,000 Piccolo 2,000,000
Time: Trunks Saga Vegeta 4,000,000 Piccolo 3,000,000 Gohan 1,000,000 Krillin 750,000 Tien 800,000 Yamcha 700,000 Chaozu 500,000 Freeza's Henchmen 5,000 Freeza bot 12,500,000 King Cold 13,000,000 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 18,000,000 Surpressed 5 Super Saiya-jin Goku 20,000,000
Time: Android Saga Super Saiyan Goku 23,000,000 Goku sick 5,000,000 Goku after room of spirit and time 110,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 25,000,000 Vegeta after room of spirit and time 90,000,00 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 20,000,000 Trunks Ultra Super Saiyan 130,000,000 Piccolo 18,000,000 Piccolo after fusion with Kami 40,000,000 Gohan 6,000,000 Gohan after room of spirit and time 120,000,000 Krillin 4,500,000 Tien 4,000,000 Yamcha 3,000,000 Android 16 40,000,000 Android 17 35,000,000 Android 18 35,000,000 Android 19 10,000,000 Android 20 5,000,000 Cell 35,000,000 Cell after absorbing humans 45,000,000 Cell after absorbing Android 17 65,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000
Time: Cell Saga Super Saiyan Trunks 105,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 100,000,000 Super Saiyan Gohan 130,000,000 SSJ2 Gohan 325,000,000 Super Saiyan Goku 120,000,000 Piccolo 60,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
Majin Buu Saga
Fat Buu: 45,000,000 Majin Buu: 80,000,000 Good Buu: 55,000,000 Bad Buu: 65,000,000 Super Buu: 70,000,000 Ultimate Buu: 50,000,000 Majin Gotunks Buu: 90,000,000 Majin Veggetto Buu: 100,000,000 Goku: 5,000,000 Goku: super saiyan: 27,000,000 Goku: super saiyan 2: 49,500,000 Goku: super saiyan 3: 79,999,999 Goku: genki-dama: 100,000,000 Piccolo: 26,000,000 Gohan: 3,000,000 Gohan: super saiyan: 25,000,000 Gohan: with the Z sword: 53,000,000 Goten: 1,500,000 Goten: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Trunks: 1,500,000 Trunks: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Gotunks: 3,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan: 20,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan 3: 75,000,000 Vegeta: 5,000,000 Vegeta: super saiyan: 26,500,000 Vegeta: super saiyan 2: 49,000,000 Veggetto: 10,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan: 53,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000
There are tons of things wrong in your list, especially during the Cell and Buu Saga, somehow everyone in Buu is weaker than Perfect Cell, when obviously that is not true. Even SSJ 3 Goku is weaker than Cell, who got his ass handed by SSJ2 Gohan. It's fun to make up numbers, but the official formulas have been ignored real badly.
agree with this especially this part: Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000 Perfect cell: 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
My thoughts were, what? cell is stronger than vegitto? The character who played around with Super Buu even kicking his ass when he was a piece of candy XD
To be fair he was a jaw breaker.
One of the problems with the assumption that "Frieza must be XX" etc, is what if DBZ fighting is like Tennis? In tennis, even being slightly better at the game results in total domination.
Frieza MUST be at least a third of the stated power level given in the Daizenshuu. I just did the math. And being slightly better in tennis doesn't result in total domination unless we're talking about true NTRP ratings. A .5 difference in NTRP is actually a large difference in skill (one example is of it being the difference between an absolute beginner and someone who can actually hit the ball inside the lines somewhat consistently during practice). Also, with Tennis, physical performance varies a lot because there's always a luck factor (tennis at it's absolute core is a game of percentages, meaning nothing is absolute and being unlucky by itself can mean defeat in the worst case scenario) and that no NORMAL human can keep up the same level of performance for long periods of time (DBZ doesn't consist of normal humans though, or even humans for that matter).
Let me just say it like this: I Can 6-0 6-0 my Brother, Who Can 6-0 6-0 my sister. There is no discernible difference between them to me. Now, the same is true for a pair of my friends who can crush me. 6-0 or 6-1. One of them has a brother who beats him 6-0/6-1 and our other friend Sam beats all of us easily 6-0. Now Sam is good, but any ATP pro would 6-0 his ass. And most of those get Dominated by a guy like Isner 6-0 or 6-1, and he gets slaughtered by guys like Nadal and Djoker.
And these are just regular humans we are talking about (basically all power lvl 5-6 in DBZ). The fact is, you dont have to be much stronger than another DBZ character to beat them. 1% might be able to do.
On top of that, I still think the Super Saiyan multipliers are BS post-initial-transformation.
If you can double bagel someone, you can easily double bagel someone they can easily beat. There'd be no difference to you, cause you're on a different level. If you were to view them subjectively with the knowledge of a high level coach, you'd notice a key difference(s).
Also, Isner loses to Nadal and Djokovic, but he won't get consistently bageled by them. Even Federer didn't do that and Federer was the king of handing out bagels and breadsticks.
A difference of 1% leads to a life and death battle similar to Tien vs Goku, Piccolo Sr. vs Goku, and Piccolo Jr. vs Goku during the Tenkaichi Budokai. It's an unpredictable fight and either person can win.
Again, if you don't follow a set multiplier system, you're literally just pulling numbers out of your ass with no system to follow other than the comparison system. In that case, comparisons between characters that never fight against one another are impossible to make unless they both fought against the same person, at the same time, and had noticeably different results. This means, it would be impossible to say that SS Gotenks>SS3 Goku. I could say SS3 Goku>SS3 Gotenks and you could NEVER EVER make a solid argument against me. With the set multiplier system, you can easily say that I was being a Goku fanboy and nothing more. That's not the only bullshit comparison I could make. I could also say that SS3 Goku>Super Buu (Gotenks Absorbed)>Ultimate Gohan, therefore meaning SS3 Goku>Ultimate Gohan, which we KNOW to be false. However, you have no hard evidence to refute me other than Goku's word that he can't beat Super Buu (he fights Super Buu in the anime, and takes a hell of a lot less damage than Gohan did; no data in the manga). Do you see how stupid fighting against the multiplier system is? Yeah, people who sit towards the middle of the system get screwed, but the numbers for the people on the outer limits (or who have been on the outer limits and haven't powered up by an unknown amount) are stable.
Also, if you go with the decreasing multiplier theory, I have a single rebuttal that destroys it: Kaioken x10. If it's not stronger than Kaioken x10, it's a dead (preferably has to be stronger than Kaioken x20 also, otherwise he would use it in desperate times, like against Buu). Pretty hard to argue the multiplier system, or rather, it's extremely easy to argue for it, and I've yet to see any legitimate argument to refute it except for bickering over what the SS2 and SS3 multipliers are.
On September 23 2013 22:20 1ntrigue wrote: Personally, I like davidstarlingm's model which was used in Bringer of Death.
That's cool and all, but there's 1 thing they don't take into account that destroys the entire model: Kaioken.
At one point, Base Goku is 65 million and SS Goku is 210 million (or something like that). That means, Kaioken x5>Super Saiyan. That means Super Saiyan becomes entirely irrelevant and Goku might as well go Kaioken x10 and use that for his battles.
Again, set multiplier system, otherwise we can make up whatever we want as long as there's no hard evidence to dispute it, like SS3 Goku being stronger than SS3 Gotenks (which isn't true since you can measure SS3 Gotenks' power in units of SS3 Gokus, which I guess I'll call "3ku"s from now on).
On September 23 2013 16:55 Iplaythings wrote: He was stronger than Super Buu - minus the absorped people.
I only read the danish translation, but it clearly shows Goku and Vegeta being like "uhh wut?" when they tore out Fat Buu from inside Super Buu and then made it out and watched him shrink in size and grow in power
Can't be possible if you're talking about Goku. Gotenks>SS2 Majin Vegeta=SS2 Goku. SS3 Gotenks=Super Buu. It's mathematically impossible that SS3 Goku could be compared to Super Buu.
I'm talking about Kid Buu
And I'd say ss3 gotenks were slightly stronger than Super Buu
I have a problem with the Frieza Calculations. And I think that is where the numbers get wonky or too much.
I'm not here picking a fight but I do have a problem with numbers ending up with quintiliion quariliions.
Great Ape = base X 10 Super Saiyan = base X 50 Ascended Saiyan = Super Saiyan X 1.03 = base X 60 Ultra Super Saiyan = Ascended Saiyan X 1.2 = base X 62 Super Saiyan 2 = Super Saiyan X 2 = base X 100 Super Saiyan 3 = Super Saiyan 2 X 4 = base X 400
I am generally in agreement with these "multipliers". The problem is the base power level should be established.
The list there has Buu at about 1 billion. Androids 16 to 18 all at 30 million only.
The only problem I have with this list is SSJ1 Goku and Frieza. If you look at the list, Frieza final form is 120million. Goku in that arc SSJ1 is 150million. Yet jumping to the Android Saga, Vegeta SSj1 is only 22 million? So My belief is the disparity lies in the escalation of Frieza's power which Goku needs to match with in that arc. If you don't balloon Frieza's numbers to much, you aren't forced into a corner when it comes to other characters.
I think the androids could go toe to toe with Frieza so mostly likely Frieza is closer to that number.
On September 24 2013 05:33 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: Just going through the list you have alot of numbers that are way off. Example is Goku super sayain during Freiza saga is 15 million not 150 million. So you can make alot of adjustments on it.
I've attached a spoiler below with the correct numbering from DBZ (if you want a DB and a GT let me know. Even though GT is a total failure.)
Time: Raditz Battle Farmer 5 Gohan 1-710 Gohan really angry 1, 130 Goku 334 Goku without heavy clothes 416 Goku Kamehameha 924 Krillin 206 Master Roshi 160 Piccolo 322 Piccolo without weighted clothes 408 Piccolo Makankosappo (first try) 1,330 Piccolo Makankosappo (second try) 1,440 Raditz 1,200 Tien 250 Turtle 0.001 Yamcha 177
Time: Saiya-jin Battle Chaozu 610 Gohan 981 Masenko 2,800 Oozaru 9,810-28,000 Goku 5,000 Goku charged up 8,000 Goku Kaio-Ken 12,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x2 16,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x3 24,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x4+Kamehameha 32,000 Krillin 1,083 - max 1,770 Nappa 4,000 Piccolo 1,220 - max 3,500 Saibamen 1,200 Tien 1,830 Vegeta 18,000 Oozaru 180,000 Yamcha 1,480
Time: Freeza Saga Gohan 1,500 Gohan after Guru charge 12,500 Gohan after Senzu Heal 17,000 Gohan while fighting Freeza 20,000 Krillin 1,500 Krillin after Guru's charge 11,000 Krillin after Senzu Heal 16,500 Krillin after Dende's Heal 19,000 Freeza's Henchmen 500 Kui 19,000 Dodoria 21,000 Zarbon 23,000 - Transformed 33,000 Vegeta 24,000 Vegeta after Zarbon Fight 35,000 Vegeta after Recoome Fight 300,000 Vegeta after Krillin's Attack 1,000,000 Guldo 10,000 Recoome 40,000 Burter 45,000 Jeice 50,000 Captain Ginyu 120,000 Ginyu In Goku's Body 23,000 Nail 42,000 Dende 10 Piccolo 200,000 Piccolo after fusion with Nail 800,000 Piccolo after Dende Heal 1,500,000 Goku 5,000 Goku after gravity training 180,000 Goku after Ginyu fight 300,000 Goku kaio-Ken x10 3,000,000 Goku kaio-Ken x20 6,000,000 Goku Super Saiyan 15,000,000 Freiza 530,000 Freiza form 2 1,000,000 Freiza form 3 2,500,000 Freiza final Form 4,000,000 Freiza 50% of max 6,000,000 Freiza 70% of max 8,400,000 Freiza 100% of max 12,000,000
Time: Garlic Jr. Saga Garlic Jr. 1,000,000 Garlic Jr. transformed 4,000,000 Gohan 900,000 Gohan really masenko 4,500,000 Kami 300,000 Krillin 600,000 Piccolo 2,000,000
Time: Trunks Saga Vegeta 4,000,000 Piccolo 3,000,000 Gohan 1,000,000 Krillin 750,000 Tien 800,000 Yamcha 700,000 Chaozu 500,000 Freeza's Henchmen 5,000 Freeza bot 12,500,000 King Cold 13,000,000 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 18,000,000 Surpressed 5 Super Saiya-jin Goku 20,000,000
Time: Android Saga Super Saiyan Goku 23,000,000 Goku sick 5,000,000 Goku after room of spirit and time 110,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 25,000,000 Vegeta after room of spirit and time 90,000,00 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 20,000,000 Trunks Ultra Super Saiyan 130,000,000 Piccolo 18,000,000 Piccolo after fusion with Kami 40,000,000 Gohan 6,000,000 Gohan after room of spirit and time 120,000,000 Krillin 4,500,000 Tien 4,000,000 Yamcha 3,000,000 Android 16 40,000,000 Android 17 35,000,000 Android 18 35,000,000 Android 19 10,000,000 Android 20 5,000,000 Cell 35,000,000 Cell after absorbing humans 45,000,000 Cell after absorbing Android 17 65,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000
Time: Cell Saga Super Saiyan Trunks 105,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 100,000,000 Super Saiyan Gohan 130,000,000 SSJ2 Gohan 325,000,000 Super Saiyan Goku 120,000,000 Piccolo 60,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
Majin Buu Saga
Fat Buu: 45,000,000 Majin Buu: 80,000,000 Good Buu: 55,000,000 Bad Buu: 65,000,000 Super Buu: 70,000,000 Ultimate Buu: 50,000,000 Majin Gotunks Buu: 90,000,000 Majin Veggetto Buu: 100,000,000 Goku: 5,000,000 Goku: super saiyan: 27,000,000 Goku: super saiyan 2: 49,500,000 Goku: super saiyan 3: 79,999,999 Goku: genki-dama: 100,000,000 Piccolo: 26,000,000 Gohan: 3,000,000 Gohan: super saiyan: 25,000,000 Gohan: with the Z sword: 53,000,000 Goten: 1,500,000 Goten: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Trunks: 1,500,000 Trunks: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Gotunks: 3,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan: 20,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan 3: 75,000,000 Vegeta: 5,000,000 Vegeta: super saiyan: 26,500,000 Vegeta: super saiyan 2: 49,000,000 Veggetto: 10,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan: 53,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000
There are tons of things wrong in your list, especially during the Cell and Buu Saga, somehow everyone in Buu is weaker than Perfect Cell, when obviously that is not true. Even SSJ 3 Goku is weaker than Cell, who got his ass handed by SSJ2 Gohan. It's fun to make up numbers, but the official formulas have been ignored real badly.
agree with this especially this part: Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000 Perfect cell: 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
My thoughts were, what? cell is stronger than vegitto? The character who played around with Super Buu even kicking his ass when he was a piece of candy XD
To be fair he was a jaw breaker.
One of the problems with the assumption that "Frieza must be XX" etc, is what if DBZ fighting is like Tennis? In tennis, even being slightly better at the game results in total domination.
Frieza MUST be at least a third of the stated power level given in the Daizenshuu. I just did the math. And being slightly better in tennis doesn't result in total domination unless we're talking about true NTRP ratings. A .5 difference in NTRP is actually a large difference in skill (one example is of it being the difference between an absolute beginner and someone who can actually hit the ball inside the lines somewhat consistently during practice). Also, with Tennis, physical performance varies a lot because there's always a luck factor (tennis at it's absolute core is a game of percentages, meaning nothing is absolute and being unlucky by itself can mean defeat in the worst case scenario) and that no NORMAL human can keep up the same level of performance for long periods of time (DBZ doesn't consist of normal humans though, or even humans for that matter).
Let me just say it like this: I Can 6-0 6-0 my Brother, Who Can 6-0 6-0 my sister. There is no discernible difference between them to me. Now, the same is true for a pair of my friends who can crush me. 6-0 or 6-1. One of them has a brother who beats him 6-0/6-1 and our other friend Sam beats all of us easily 6-0. Now Sam is good, but any ATP pro would 6-0 his ass. And most of those get Dominated by a guy like Isner 6-0 or 6-1, and he gets slaughtered by guys like Nadal and Djoker.
And these are just regular humans we are talking about (basically all power lvl 5-6 in DBZ). The fact is, you dont have to be much stronger than another DBZ character to beat them. 1% might be able to do.
On top of that, I still think the Super Saiyan multipliers are BS post-initial-transformation.
If you can double bagel someone, you can easily double bagel someone they can easily beat. There'd be no difference to you, cause you're on a different level. If you were to view them subjectively with the knowledge of a high level coach, you'd notice a key difference(s).
Also, Isner loses to Nadal and Djokovic, but he won't get consistently bageled by them. Even Federer didn't do that and Federer was the king of handing out bagels and breadsticks.
A difference of 1% leads to a life and death battle similar to Tien vs Goku, Piccolo Sr. vs Goku, and Piccolo Jr. vs Goku during the Tenkaichi Budokai. It's an unpredictable fight and either person can win.
There is just not a lot of evidence that supports your conclusion. Tien vs. Goku turned on the fact that they possessed different skill sets (and arguably Goku was stronger). Yea, but there is no evidence that 2% is not a significant difference, or even 5%. I mean, the thing about Dragonball, is that there is almost a 100% correlation between being stronger and winning a fight (Except Goku vs. Vegeta #1). Its like if Tiger Woods won 100% of Tournaments from 2000-His Affair becoming public. In DB, a small difference in power is gigantic.
On September 23 2013 19:49 Tobberoth wrote: It's not trolling, Akira Toriyama officially released powerlevels and put final form Frieza at 12 million while SSJ Goku sits at 15 million. It might not be logical, but it is official.
I'll solve this problem with commonly used magic I call analytical comparison and basic math.
Frieza form 2 is over 1 million. (Not debatable) Piccolo is stronger than Frieza Form 2, therefore, Piccolo is also over 1 million. (Not debatable.) In Goku's initial fight versus Frieza's final form, Piccolo states this is a fight outside of our league/realm of understanding. Also, at this point, Goku has yet to use Kaioken (the art's pretty noticeable), therefore, any number short of 1 million can't be debated to be true unless you live in a world where math doesn't exist. Goku uses Kaioken x20, and blows a Kamehameha at Frieza. Frieza blocks it with his hand, while claiming to be at 50% the entire time. Goku says he wasn't bluffing after all. This means, even if Frieza was wrong, he's not far off from being at 50% of his actual power. Ergo, 1+ million x 20 <= 50% Frieza, meaning Frieza's strength exceeds 40 million.
Two things:
1) It is not sure that Frieza fought Piccolo with his full power in his second form? He might just transform as soon as his opponents get to, say, half his strength, just because he wants to toy with them without breaking a sweat.
2) While Goku fights Frieza "normally", he already used a tenfold Kaioken, so if you consider Kaioken to be a simple multiplier, switching from tenfold to twentyfold just doubles the strength.
in my memory (i watched vegeta saga to end of android saga completely, the rest i missed): android 16 was strong than imperfect cell but got destroyed by semiperfect cell. 100% frieza fought with goku on even level or close to even level but ran out of energy quick android 18 destroyed SSJ vegeta on their first encounter
On September 23 2013 16:55 Iplaythings wrote: He was stronger than Super Buu - minus the absorped people.
I only read the danish translation, but it clearly shows Goku and Vegeta being like "uhh wut?" when they tore out Fat Buu from inside Super Buu and then made it out and watched him shrink in size and grow in power
Can't be possible if you're talking about Goku. Gotenks>SS2 Majin Vegeta=SS2 Goku. SS3 Gotenks=Super Buu. It's mathematically impossible that SS3 Goku could be compared to Super Buu.
I'm talking about Kid Buu
And I'd say ss3 gotenks were slightly stronger than Super Buu
Fair enough, but he's called Kid Buu for a reason (so we don't get those kinds of misunderstandings).
Yeah, the exact comparisons of SS3 Gotenks to Super Buu and SS3 Goku to Kid Buu are blurry. You could argue for or against each side. I'd say SS3 Gotenks in terms of sheer power and ability does beat Super Buu by a bit, but by enough to win in the 5-10 minutes he has? Not if Super Buu is looking for the kill. I'd also say Kid Buu>SS3 Goku. But again, these are debatable, but it would be difficult to come with a conclusion accepted by the majority, so I avoid that mess and list them being the same (makes calculations easier, though only slightly).
On September 24 2013 18:00 17Sphynx17 wrote: I have a problem with the Frieza Calculations. And I think that is where the numbers get wonky or too much.
I'm not here picking a fight but I do have a problem with numbers ending up with quintiliion quariliions.
Great Ape = base X 10 Super Saiyan = base X 50 Ascended Saiyan = Super Saiyan X 1.03 = base X 60 Ultra Super Saiyan = Ascended Saiyan X 1.2 = base X 62 Super Saiyan 2 = Super Saiyan X 2 = base X 100 Super Saiyan 3 = Super Saiyan 2 X 4 = base X 400
I am generally in agreement with these "multipliers". The problem is the base power level should be established.
I don't go with that list because it's messy, incomplete, wrong, and even contradicts itself because it's messy. Frieza is listed as under 40 million. I've already posted the math that proves Frieza is over 40 million.
Your math is also wrong. 1.03x50 =51.5. You're looking for 1.2x50. I've seen that before somewhere because you copy and pasted that exact same mathematical error.
You say you have a problem with the Frieza calculations, but you can't dispute them. You can't dispute math unless you can prove one of the assumptions are wrong, which is all taken straight from the manga. You'd be hard-pressed to have any ground to stand on when disputing the fact that Frieza is stronger than 40 million.
On September 24 2013 05:33 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: Just going through the list you have alot of numbers that are way off. Example is Goku super sayain during Freiza saga is 15 million not 150 million. So you can make alot of adjustments on it.
I've attached a spoiler below with the correct numbering from DBZ (if you want a DB and a GT let me know. Even though GT is a total failure.)
Time: Raditz Battle Farmer 5 Gohan 1-710 Gohan really angry 1, 130 Goku 334 Goku without heavy clothes 416 Goku Kamehameha 924 Krillin 206 Master Roshi 160 Piccolo 322 Piccolo without weighted clothes 408 Piccolo Makankosappo (first try) 1,330 Piccolo Makankosappo (second try) 1,440 Raditz 1,200 Tien 250 Turtle 0.001 Yamcha 177
Time: Saiya-jin Battle Chaozu 610 Gohan 981 Masenko 2,800 Oozaru 9,810-28,000 Goku 5,000 Goku charged up 8,000 Goku Kaio-Ken 12,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x2 16,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x3 24,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x4+Kamehameha 32,000 Krillin 1,083 - max 1,770 Nappa 4,000 Piccolo 1,220 - max 3,500 Saibamen 1,200 Tien 1,830 Vegeta 18,000 Oozaru 180,000 Yamcha 1,480
Time: Freeza Saga Gohan 1,500 Gohan after Guru charge 12,500 Gohan after Senzu Heal 17,000 Gohan while fighting Freeza 20,000 Krillin 1,500 Krillin after Guru's charge 11,000 Krillin after Senzu Heal 16,500 Krillin after Dende's Heal 19,000 Freeza's Henchmen 500 Kui 19,000 Dodoria 21,000 Zarbon 23,000 - Transformed 33,000 Vegeta 24,000 Vegeta after Zarbon Fight 35,000 Vegeta after Recoome Fight 300,000 Vegeta after Krillin's Attack 1,000,000 Guldo 10,000 Recoome 40,000 Burter 45,000 Jeice 50,000 Captain Ginyu 120,000 Ginyu In Goku's Body 23,000 Nail 42,000 Dende 10 Piccolo 200,000 Piccolo after fusion with Nail 800,000 Piccolo after Dende Heal 1,500,000 Goku 5,000 Goku after gravity training 180,000 Goku after Ginyu fight 300,000 Goku kaio-Ken x10 3,000,000 Goku kaio-Ken x20 6,000,000 Goku Super Saiyan 15,000,000 Freiza 530,000 Freiza form 2 1,000,000 Freiza form 3 2,500,000 Freiza final Form 4,000,000 Freiza 50% of max 6,000,000 Freiza 70% of max 8,400,000 Freiza 100% of max 12,000,000
Time: Garlic Jr. Saga Garlic Jr. 1,000,000 Garlic Jr. transformed 4,000,000 Gohan 900,000 Gohan really masenko 4,500,000 Kami 300,000 Krillin 600,000 Piccolo 2,000,000
Time: Trunks Saga Vegeta 4,000,000 Piccolo 3,000,000 Gohan 1,000,000 Krillin 750,000 Tien 800,000 Yamcha 700,000 Chaozu 500,000 Freeza's Henchmen 5,000 Freeza bot 12,500,000 King Cold 13,000,000 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 18,000,000 Surpressed 5 Super Saiya-jin Goku 20,000,000
Time: Android Saga Super Saiyan Goku 23,000,000 Goku sick 5,000,000 Goku after room of spirit and time 110,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 25,000,000 Vegeta after room of spirit and time 90,000,00 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 20,000,000 Trunks Ultra Super Saiyan 130,000,000 Piccolo 18,000,000 Piccolo after fusion with Kami 40,000,000 Gohan 6,000,000 Gohan after room of spirit and time 120,000,000 Krillin 4,500,000 Tien 4,000,000 Yamcha 3,000,000 Android 16 40,000,000 Android 17 35,000,000 Android 18 35,000,000 Android 19 10,000,000 Android 20 5,000,000 Cell 35,000,000 Cell after absorbing humans 45,000,000 Cell after absorbing Android 17 65,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000
Time: Cell Saga Super Saiyan Trunks 105,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 100,000,000 Super Saiyan Gohan 130,000,000 SSJ2 Gohan 325,000,000 Super Saiyan Goku 120,000,000 Piccolo 60,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
Majin Buu Saga
Fat Buu: 45,000,000 Majin Buu: 80,000,000 Good Buu: 55,000,000 Bad Buu: 65,000,000 Super Buu: 70,000,000 Ultimate Buu: 50,000,000 Majin Gotunks Buu: 90,000,000 Majin Veggetto Buu: 100,000,000 Goku: 5,000,000 Goku: super saiyan: 27,000,000 Goku: super saiyan 2: 49,500,000 Goku: super saiyan 3: 79,999,999 Goku: genki-dama: 100,000,000 Piccolo: 26,000,000 Gohan: 3,000,000 Gohan: super saiyan: 25,000,000 Gohan: with the Z sword: 53,000,000 Goten: 1,500,000 Goten: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Trunks: 1,500,000 Trunks: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Gotunks: 3,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan: 20,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan 3: 75,000,000 Vegeta: 5,000,000 Vegeta: super saiyan: 26,500,000 Vegeta: super saiyan 2: 49,000,000 Veggetto: 10,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan: 53,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000
There are tons of things wrong in your list, especially during the Cell and Buu Saga, somehow everyone in Buu is weaker than Perfect Cell, when obviously that is not true. Even SSJ 3 Goku is weaker than Cell, who got his ass handed by SSJ2 Gohan. It's fun to make up numbers, but the official formulas have been ignored real badly.
agree with this especially this part: Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000 Perfect cell: 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
My thoughts were, what? cell is stronger than vegitto? The character who played around with Super Buu even kicking his ass when he was a piece of candy XD
To be fair he was a jaw breaker.
One of the problems with the assumption that "Frieza must be XX" etc, is what if DBZ fighting is like Tennis? In tennis, even being slightly better at the game results in total domination.
Frieza MUST be at least a third of the stated power level given in the Daizenshuu. I just did the math. And being slightly better in tennis doesn't result in total domination unless we're talking about true NTRP ratings. A .5 difference in NTRP is actually a large difference in skill (one example is of it being the difference between an absolute beginner and someone who can actually hit the ball inside the lines somewhat consistently during practice). Also, with Tennis, physical performance varies a lot because there's always a luck factor (tennis at it's absolute core is a game of percentages, meaning nothing is absolute and being unlucky by itself can mean defeat in the worst case scenario) and that no NORMAL human can keep up the same level of performance for long periods of time (DBZ doesn't consist of normal humans though, or even humans for that matter).
Let me just say it like this: I Can 6-0 6-0 my Brother, Who Can 6-0 6-0 my sister. There is no discernible difference between them to me. Now, the same is true for a pair of my friends who can crush me. 6-0 or 6-1. One of them has a brother who beats him 6-0/6-1 and our other friend Sam beats all of us easily 6-0. Now Sam is good, but any ATP pro would 6-0 his ass. And most of those get Dominated by a guy like Isner 6-0 or 6-1, and he gets slaughtered by guys like Nadal and Djoker.
And these are just regular humans we are talking about (basically all power lvl 5-6 in DBZ). The fact is, you dont have to be much stronger than another DBZ character to beat them. 1% might be able to do.
On top of that, I still think the Super Saiyan multipliers are BS post-initial-transformation.
If you can double bagel someone, you can easily double bagel someone they can easily beat. There'd be no difference to you, cause you're on a different level. If you were to view them subjectively with the knowledge of a high level coach, you'd notice a key difference(s).
Also, Isner loses to Nadal and Djokovic, but he won't get consistently bageled by them. Even Federer didn't do that and Federer was the king of handing out bagels and breadsticks.
A difference of 1% leads to a life and death battle similar to Tien vs Goku, Piccolo Sr. vs Goku, and Piccolo Jr. vs Goku during the Tenkaichi Budokai. It's an unpredictable fight and either person can win.
There is just not a lot of evidence that supports your conclusion. Tien vs. Goku turned on the fact that they possessed different skill sets (and arguably Goku was stronger). Yea, but there is no evidence that 2% is not a significant difference, or even 5%. I mean, the thing about Dragonball, is that there is almost a 100% correlation between being stronger and winning a fight (Except Goku vs. Vegeta #1). Its like if Tiger Woods won 100% of Tournaments from 2000-His Affair becoming public. In DB, a small difference in power is gigantic.
Different skillsets is what contributes to the battle power of a fighter. Also, Shonen Jump I believe posted those numbers and they were reprinted in Daizenshuu (or visa versa, though a lot of people regard Shonen Jump as a reliable source as long as the number is posted several times, since being posted only once means it was a mistake, which is obviously why they didn't repost it).
Technically, Goku vs Vegeta has Goku losing by a large margin. But everyone else came in and a bunch of fortuitous moments happened (Yajirobe cutting Vegeta's tail off and Gohan turning into an Oozaru when Vegeta was weakened).
The only 2 instances of someone winning a fight while being weaker than their opponent . The first is Goku+Piccolo vs Radditz, and that was cause Goku held down Radditz so Piccolo could go for a fatal attack at Radditz's heart. The second one is Krillin vs Vegeta. Krillin KILLED Vegeta (cause Vegeta reduced his resistances to 0 ).
Outside of Dragonball, where power levels were tiny, there aren't many instances where a small power level difference resulted in a win. The ONLY instances are Dodoria vs Vegeta (where the difference was 9% of Dodoria's power level and 7% of Vegeta's), Zarbon vs Vegeta (Zarbon was likely over 10% stronger than Vegeta, and the other way around after Vegeta got his Zenkai to go to 30,000). After that, you look at Goku vs Frieza, Goku is 25% stronger than Frieza (Frieza at 80% of Goku), and Goku takes nearly 5 minutes of hard fighting to beat him. And in Dragonball, those small differences lead to small victories. You rarely saw people at the top dominate each other to the level shown in Dragonball Z.
On September 23 2013 19:49 Tobberoth wrote: It's not trolling, Akira Toriyama officially released powerlevels and put final form Frieza at 12 million while SSJ Goku sits at 15 million. It might not be logical, but it is official.
I'll solve this problem with commonly used magic I call analytical comparison and basic math.
Frieza form 2 is over 1 million. (Not debatable) Piccolo is stronger than Frieza Form 2, therefore, Piccolo is also over 1 million. (Not debatable.) In Goku's initial fight versus Frieza's final form, Piccolo states this is a fight outside of our league/realm of understanding. Also, at this point, Goku has yet to use Kaioken (the art's pretty noticeable), therefore, any number short of 1 million can't be debated to be true unless you live in a world where math doesn't exist. Goku uses Kaioken x20, and blows a Kamehameha at Frieza. Frieza blocks it with his hand, while claiming to be at 50% the entire time. Goku says he wasn't bluffing after all. This means, even if Frieza was wrong, he's not far off from being at 50% of his actual power. Ergo, 1+ million x 20 <= 50% Frieza, meaning Frieza's strength exceeds 40 million.
Two things:
1) It is not sure that Frieza fought Piccolo with his full power in his second form? He might just transform as soon as his opponents get to, say, half his strength, just because he wants to toy with them without breaking a sweat.
2) While Goku fights Frieza "normally", he already used a tenfold Kaioken, so if you consider Kaioken to be a simple multiplier, switching from tenfold to twentyfold just doubles the strength.
1) Doesn't matter. Frieza's transformed form was over 1 million. Even if he wasn't giving it his all, he was still fighting Piccolo with a power level of "over 1 million". This means Goku is still over 1 million in power level.
2) No, he wasn't. lol When he initially fights Frieza, neither of them were taking it all that seriously. Goku hadn't used Kaioken even once. Then later on (when they say it's time to get serious), he starts using lower levels of Kaioken (judging from the art, might not even be Kaioken). Why do I say that? The following dialog sequence after that brief fight has Frieza saying, "You're pretty confident. I know you're still holding back your true power. However, if I take that into consideration, I can still destroy you with just 50% of my power." Goku considers his true power to be using Kaioken x10, with Kaioken x20 as an absolute last resort (and Spirit Bomb being desperation plan C). That means Kaioken x10 was not used from the start, so Frieza is still at over 40 million at 100%.
On September 24 2013 18:39 saltywet wrote: Before, (sometime ago) I saw a power level list I really liked,
in my memory (i watched vegeta saga to end of android saga completely, the rest i missed): android 16 was strong than imperfect cell but got destroyed by semiperfect cell. 100% frieza fought with goku on even level or close to even level but ran out of energy quick android 18 destroyed SSJ vegeta on their first encounter
Ignoring the Frieza comment.
Android 16 ~= Imperfect Cell. It never said he was stronger, just "about equal".
Still reanalyzing Androids' power after reading some lines from the History of Trunks. Yes, she destroyed Vegeta, but a large part of that fact was that she had infinite energy. Trunks thought they were fighting on fairly even ground (much better than Trunks did versus the Androids in his own time), but the reason he lost was that for every move Vegeta made, he slowly lost stamina, while the Androids didn't lose any because their power was infinite. So to say Android 18 is twice Vegeta's strength can't be true. If we do an "effective" combat power level, then maybe she's twice as strong as Vegeta, but in terms of raw power, Vegeta's not THAT far off (think of Trunks vs Cell, Trunks was "stronger" but weaker in actual combat).
On September 24 2013 16:21 RyLai wrote: Also, at this point, Goku has yet to use Kaioken (the art's pretty noticeable), therefore, any number short of 1 million can't be debated to be true unless you live in a world where math doesn't exist. Goku uses Kaioken x20, and blows a Kamehameha at Frieza. Frieza blocks it with his hand, while claiming to be at 50% the entire time. Goku says he wasn't bluffing after all. This means, even if Frieza was wrong, he's not far off from being at 50% of his actual power. Ergo, 1+ million x 20 <= 50% Frieza, meaning Frieza's strength exceeds 40 million.
While your argument is solid, both Tien and King Kai claim that Goku is using 10x kaioken throughout the fight with frieza, which lowers your estimate quite massively.
On September 24 2013 16:21 RyLai wrote: Also, at this point, Goku has yet to use Kaioken (the art's pretty noticeable), therefore, any number short of 1 million can't be debated to be true unless you live in a world where math doesn't exist. Goku uses Kaioken x20, and blows a Kamehameha at Frieza. Frieza blocks it with his hand, while claiming to be at 50% the entire time. Goku says he wasn't bluffing after all. This means, even if Frieza was wrong, he's not far off from being at 50% of his actual power. Ergo, 1+ million x 20 <= 50% Frieza, meaning Frieza's strength exceeds 40 million.
While your argument is solid, both Tien and King Kai claim that Goku is using 10x kaioken throughout the fight with frieza, which lowers your estimate quite massively.
Throughout the whole fight? no way. Only after Frieza increased his power did Goku start using the kaioken
Android 16 ~= Imperfect Cell. It never said he was stronger, just "about equal".
Still reanalyzing Androids' power after reading some lines from the History of Trunks. Yes, she destroyed Vegeta, but a large part of that fact was that she had infinite energy. Trunks thought they were fighting on fairly even ground (much better than Trunks did versus the Androids in his own time), but the reason he lost was that for every move Vegeta made, he slowly lost stamina, while the Androids didn't lose any because their power was infinite. So to say Android 18 is twice Vegeta's strength can't be true. If we do an "effective" combat power level, then maybe she's twice as strong as Vegeta, but in terms of raw power, Vegeta's not THAT far off (think of Trunks vs Cell, Trunks was "stronger" but weaker in actual combat).
i disagree.
android 16 was definitely stronger than imperfect cell, imperfect cell could not damage android 16 and android 16 was destroying cell, which is why cell had to resort to sneak absorbing 17 to become semiperfect cell
and android 18 destroyed vegeta not because of stamina. vegeta did not even damage 18 at all, she blocked his kicks with her arm and she even let him kick her head without flinching. all his blasts did was damage her clothes.
ultra super saiyan trunks was physically as strong or stronger than perfect cell, but because of his bulk he had no speed, so cell could easily fight against trunks, that's it. he's not really "weaker"
On September 24 2013 16:21 RyLai wrote: Also, at this point, Goku has yet to use Kaioken (the art's pretty noticeable), therefore, any number short of 1 million can't be debated to be true unless you live in a world where math doesn't exist. Goku uses Kaioken x20, and blows a Kamehameha at Frieza. Frieza blocks it with his hand, while claiming to be at 50% the entire time. Goku says he wasn't bluffing after all. This means, even if Frieza was wrong, he's not far off from being at 50% of his actual power. Ergo, 1+ million x 20 <= 50% Frieza, meaning Frieza's strength exceeds 40 million.
While your argument is solid, both Tien and King Kai claim that Goku is using 10x kaioken throughout the fight with frieza, which lowers your estimate quite massively.
Throughout the whole fight? no way. Only after Frieza increased his power did Goku start using the kaioken
^ I like it when someone actually pays attention to the finer details among the little details.
Sometimes, it gets a little annoying each time someone questions the little details for me to open up my (friend's) books to look at what specifically happened to explain it to everyone... =.=
1) Frieza and Goku fight, not taking things seriously 2) Frieza and Goku get somewhat serious, Goku may or may not have used Kaioken at this point (there was kaioken-looking art), but it is of a low multiplier. A colored version of the manga would help... I think one was released? Don't have access to it though. That art wasn't used prior to that point, so it's likely that it was a Kaioken, though again, it just proves it wasn't used at the beginning, thus proving that Goku in base form is much stronger than Piccolo, who is over 1 million in power level. 3) Frieza calculated the extent of Goku's full powers and concludes that he could beat Goku with half his power. Goku can't believe what he's saying, cause he hasn't used Kaioken x10 yet, and the difference with the power he was using at that point and Kaioken x10 should be a massive one. Then Goku says "he's not bluffing" right before Frieza initiates the first attack on him. 4) Goku goes all in with a Kaioken x20, and Frieza holds his ground. Frieza still has access to 100%, so likely, Frieza's call that he can beat Goku's max (at that time) with just 50% of his power is accurate (though he was very surprised, so he could've exceeded Frieza's 50% estimation, who knows).
Btw why do you put SSJ gotenks pre>>>>>>>>>>Base gotenks post? It's heavily implied by both Gotenks and Piccolo that his base is superior to his SSJ pre rosat. At the very least it should be close, otherwise why the hell would Gotenks believe he has the slightest chance against Super Buu?
Android 16 ~= Imperfect Cell. It never said he was stronger, just "about equal".
Still reanalyzing Androids' power after reading some lines from the History of Trunks. Yes, she destroyed Vegeta, but a large part of that fact was that she had infinite energy. Trunks thought they were fighting on fairly even ground (much better than Trunks did versus the Androids in his own time), but the reason he lost was that for every move Vegeta made, he slowly lost stamina, while the Androids didn't lose any because their power was infinite. So to say Android 18 is twice Vegeta's strength can't be true. If we do an "effective" combat power level, then maybe she's twice as strong as Vegeta, but in terms of raw power, Vegeta's not THAT far off (think of Trunks vs Cell, Trunks was "stronger" but weaker in actual combat).
i disagree.
android 16 was definitely stronger than imperfect cell, imperfect cell could not damage android 16 and android 16 was destroying cell, which is why cell had to resort to sneak absorbing 17 to become semiperfect cell
and android 18 destroyed vegeta not because of stamina. vegeta did not even damage 18 at all, she blocked his kicks with her arm and she even let him kick her head without flinching. all his blasts did was damage her clothes.
ultra super saiyan trunks was physically as strong or stronger than perfect cell, but because of his bulk he had no speed, so cell could easily fight against trunks, that's it. he's not really "weaker"
Cell damaged 16. Their fight was even until 16 got a grab on Cell, threw him into a ground, then used Hell Flash. He wasn't destroying Cell. If you're citing the anime, I'll end the discussion here.
Read the manga. Even the anime has this statement. They're competitive until Vegeta runs out of energy. Not saying they're super close, but similar to Frieza vs Goku, maybe a little lower. Definitely closer than Trunks vs Androids, and that was ~50%.
USS Trunks was far superior to Cell at the moment (in his surpressed form) in terms of pure physical strength. Aside from that, reread my statement. Trunks is weaker in terms of combat ability, even if he is physically stronger by a large margin. If you're disagreeing the fact that Trunks is weaker in terms of combat ability, Trunks never landed a single hit on Cell once becoming a USS. All Cell would have to do is dodge until Trunks run out of stamina (Cell's stamina reserves should GREATLY exceed Trunks'). At that point, it's a TKO - Cell wins because Trunks cannot keep up with him. Cell never has to fight USS Trunks to win the fight (though he can actually destroy USS Trunks with his full power).
Hello folks, Currently watch DBZ for first time. I'm on namek saga but i saw the figures i think they may be wrong. + Show Spoiler +
Kui: about 18,000 Dodoria: 22,000 Zarbon: 23,000 -Transformed: very likely around 27,000 Ginyu Force (except Guldo and Ginyu): Between 30,000 and 60,000; generally accepted around 42,000-45,000 Ginyu: 120,000 -in Goku's Body: 23,000
Gohan: -about 1,500 upon arrival -14,000 after Guru unlocks potential Krillin: -about 1,500 upon arrival -13,000 after Guru unlocks potential Vegeta: -upon arrival: 24,000 -after Zarbon: ~30,000 -After fighting Recoome: 250,000 (according to V-Jump, which I guess is considered a good source) Nail: 42,000 Goku: 90,000 -Surpressed: 5,000 -Kaioken x2: 180,000-Kaioken x10: 900,000
Vegeta has 250k afer fighting Recoome but nothing happened to show how he becamse that strong. When Goku landed and fought ginyu force Vegeta was shocked at his power, then he come to realise he was a super saiyan. As well if Vegata had 250,000 at that point he would have been able to kill Goku and Ginyu without a problem. I think that figure is unrealistic but i may be wrong. Can anyone expand on this please.
On September 24 2013 19:48 TheQuiff wrote: Hello folks, Currently watch DBZ for first time. I'm on namek saga but i saw the figures i think they may be wrong. + Show Spoiler +
Kui: about 18,000 Dodoria: 22,000 Zarbon: 23,000 -Transformed: very likely around 27,000 Ginyu Force (except Guldo and Ginyu): Between 30,000 and 60,000; generally accepted around 42,000-45,000 Ginyu: 120,000 -in Goku's Body: 23,000
Gohan: -about 1,500 upon arrival -14,000 after Guru unlocks potential Krillin: -about 1,500 upon arrival -13,000 after Guru unlocks potential Vegeta: -upon arrival: 24,000 -after Zarbon: ~30,000 -After fighting Recoome: 250,000 (according to V-Jump, which I guess is considered a good source) Nail: 42,000 Goku: 90,000 -Surpressed: 5,000 -Kaioken x2: 180,000-Kaioken x10: 900,000
Vegeta has 250k afer fighting Recoome but nothing happened to show how he becamse that strong. When Goku landed and fought ginyu force Vegeta was shocked at his power, then he come to realise he was a super saiyan. As well if Vegata had 250,000 at that point he would have been able to kill Goku and Ginyu without a problem. I think that figure is unrealistic but i may be wrong. Can anyone expand on this please.
Vegeta probably hadn't gotten the full powerup from the zenkai for a while after his fight with Recoome. He could've killed Goku after Goku was injured when Ginyu switched bodies, but he wanted his help against Frieza.
I still have like 3 more episodes to watch tonight. Even then goku moved quickly and and couldnt be hut by the fastest member of the Ginyu gang. But Vegeta threw the DB and he caught it a Vegeta what shocked at his speed.
It's hard to see if hes powerful at all.
He feared for his life when he knew the Ginyu Gang were coming. So then he was weaker that Ginyu.
Maybe its in the next 2 episode he does that powerup thing but he still weak atm.
On September 24 2013 19:43 Olinimmm wrote: Btw why do you put SSJ gotenks pre>>>>>>>>>>Base gotenks post? It's heavily implied by both Gotenks and Piccolo that his base is superior to his SSJ pre rosat.
Because, mathematically, unless Fusion has different SS multipliers, that means post-RoSaT Gotenks would've gotten stronger by at least 50 times. I honestly wish the Fusion SS multipliers were different (this is the exact reason why the numbers get ridiculous), but if I changed them without a strong suggestion of what the actual multiplier is, then I'd be doing what people who don't follow set multipliers do and be throwing out pure bullshit. At this point, I'm settling with bullshit supported by mathematical calculations.
But yeah... I've found the parts that suggest that base Gotenks post-RoSaT>SS Gotenks pre-RoSaT...
Damn it AT... Why were you so bad with math?! T.T
This would mean Gotenks post-RoSaT is over 50x stronger than SS2 Majin Vegeta... That means SS3 Gotenks is over 20,000x stronger... That's 120 trillion... Err... Excuse me... "OVER" 120 trillion... I hate math right now... I hate it so much...
However, this would also imply that Goten and Trunks got 50 times stronger (unless the Fusion dance equation is actually multiplication-based instead addition), which makes then... VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY scary little kids... Would mean Goten and Trunks>Goku and Vegeta... Even if I adjusted the numbers for Goku and Vegeta to compensate, a lot of the numbers have to be shifted around and it's still highly probable that Goten and Trunks will still end up stronger than Vegeta and Goku. O.O
Also, this implies that somehow Goten and Trunks received a 50x boost in less than 2 weeks of training. Maybe the strength of the fusion itself is what became stronger, so the fusion multiplier got higher...
Still, you see the giant mess that comes with making base Gotenks post-RoSaT just being even with SS Gotenks pre-RoSaT? I don't want to deal with that giant mess or the number inflation. Yeah, it's kinda bad... But if enough people support the numbers inflation and can come up with solutions to cleaning up the mess a bit, I'll update it... Cause at this point, it creates way more problems than it solves (which is 2 lines from Piccolo that creates one implication).
On September 24 2013 20:06 TheQuiff wrote: Ahh okay.
I still have like 3 more episodes to watch tonight. Even then goku moved quickly and and couldnt be hut by the fastest member of the Ginyu gang. But Vegeta threw the DB and he caught it a Vegeta what shocked at his speed.
It's hard to see if hes powerful at all.
He feared for his life when he knew the Ginyu Gang were coming. So then he was weaker that Ginyu.
Maybe its in the next 2 episode he does that powerup thing but he still weak atm.
He demolishes Jiece after eating a Senzu bean and obtaining Zenkai, which entices Ginyu to try and swap bodies with Vegeta. So yeah, he gets a MASSIVE powerup. He also demolishes Ginyu in Goku's body, though that doesn't mean much, because Ginyu had a power level of 23,000 when using Goku's body (in the manga, don't know what number the anime posted).
However, later, he fights Frieza in his first form and goes pretty even with him, which has some people list Vegeta at 530,000 instead of 250,000. This may or may not be true because we don't know if Frieza was at 100% in his first form. He easily could be, since he was PIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIISSed. But a counterargument is that Frieza came back from fighting Nail, where he says he won't go full out, so Frieza probably arrived at the scene short of full power.
So did Vegeta obtain another senzu bean? Zenkai he can turn that on whenever he wants and i was led to believe it was only a temp thing not perm? + He get's stronger everytime he kills someone?
On September 24 2013 20:58 TheQuiff wrote: So did Vegeta obtain another senzu bean? Zenkai he can turn that on whenever he wants and i was led to believe it was only a temp thing not perm? + He get's stronger everytime he kills someone?
It's permanent.
Vegeta only got 1 Senzu Bean (after getting beat to a pulp by Recoome). He only gets Zenkai after getting beat half-to-death then recovering. He doesn't get stronger after he kills someone. You could technically get a Zenkai whenever you want if you have access to constant healing (Vegeta uses this tactic later in the story, and Goku used it during his training at 100g's; he constantly injured/trained himself to near death, then ate a Senzu Bean, which is why he had so few left when he arrived on Namek).
You never see Vegeta's combat abilities after fighting Recoome until he fights Jiece and Ginyu. By that time, he fully surpassed Jiece. The only evidence we have that Vegeta surpassed Ginyu's original power is the V-Jump power level listing they have for him, but Vegeta's strength is likely over 60,000, since Ginyu estimates anyone who can shit on the regular members of the Ginyu force to be in that range, and well... Vegeta took a dump on Jiece.
Zenkai is a load of shit. The second I, as a sayan, learned of it, and procured sensu beans for crying out loud--- I would just impale myself with my fist, and eat a bean. Continue onto infinity. Fuck training, I can just impale myself.
edit: and holy shit once dende gets to earth? when beans run out you just make the plant-guy heal you.
On September 25 2013 06:51 Dazed_Spy wrote: Zenkai is a load of shit. The second I, as a sayan, learned of it, and procured sensu beans for crying out loud--- I would just impale myself with my fist, and eat a bean. Continue onto infinity. Fuck training, I can just impale myself.
edit: and holy shit once dende gets to earth? when beans run out you just make the plant-guy heal you.
Goku basically did that on his trip to Namek.
Vegeta did that in his battle with Frieza.
The bonus seemed to disappear or at least have significantly reduced effectiveness once they unlocked the Super Saiyan form. A fractional increase like it was at the beginning was fine, but when it started getting ridiculous was when the Ginyu Force arrived.
On September 25 2013 16:22 Shikyo wrote: But, but... Where is Broly? T_T
I didn't do movie characters for obvious reasons (they often don't fit well into the story line). Some are easier to fit than others though (first Broly movie, Fusion Reborn, and Battle of Gods). For a lot of the more sketchy ones, we have to rely on movie pamphlet numbers, or other sketchy, but published, numbers.
That being said, I calculated Broly's power to be around 2.8 billion (probably closer to 2.5 billion, but it's in the ballpark of 2.8).
You might ask why Broly shit-stomped everyone and is still ranked lower than SS2 Gohan (and even Perfect Cell, which is just how the numbers turned out).
Broly was dominating 2 Super Saiyans, 2 Ascended Super Saiyans, and a "Super" Namekian.
All of those 5 listed fighters were outclassed (with the possible exception of 100% SS Goku) by Cell's spawns - the Cell Jrs.
SS2 Gohan DEMOLISHED (well beyond what Broly did to the Saiyan hit squad) the Cell Jrs.
Gohan demonstrated a greater domination of a larger number of fighters that were superior to the ones Broly fought. Conclusion: SS2 Gohan would DESTROY Broly in a fight.
According to the math Vegito should be stronger than anything in the forseeable future/ the next saga. Seems a bit unfair. You could fuse piccolo with yamcha and get someone Buu level. Maybe not Yamcha. There's no way Vegito is stronger than Buriel. That equation is so broken lol.
Also it was humorous that this turned into a goku vs superman discussion for a while.
Yeh, the power gains of base saiyans in the Namek saga where insane. Or rage Gohan for an example from having no chance to beat any of the ginyu members to almost killing Frieza's second transformation after 1 zenkai.
Who do you guys think had the best charachter arc? For me it was Gohan from the beginning of DBZ, a little child with a power lvl of 1 at the start into losing his father at a very young age, into beïng thrown to the wolves by Piccolo in the battle against the saiyans. He sees Krillin, Piccolo and Goku(2 times) die all before the age of 11. Always comes short too saving his friends until het let's it all go in the end to finish Cell and save the earth. Perfect ending imo. I even pretend Buu saga didn't happen.
On September 26 2013 03:39 massivez wrote: Yeh, the power gains of base saiyans in the Namek saga where insane. Or rage Gohan for an example from having no chance to beat any of the ginyu members to almost killing Frieza's second transformation after 1 zenkai.
Who do you guys think had the best charachter arc? For me it was Gohan from the beginning of DBZ, a little child with a power lvl of 1 at the start into losing his father at a very young age, into beïng thrown to the wolves by Piccolo in the battle against the saiyans. He sees Krillin, Piccolo and Goku(2 times) die all before the age of 11. Always comes short too saving his friends until het let's it all go in the end to finish Cell and save the earth. Perfect ending imo. I even pretend Buu saga didn't happen.
I'm almost 100% convinced that was going to be the original ending point of dbz.
On September 26 2013 03:39 massivez wrote: Yeh, the power gains of base saiyans in the Namek saga where insane. Or rage Gohan for an example from having no chance to beat any of the ginyu members to almost killing Frieza's second transformation after 1 zenkai.
Who do you guys think had the best charachter arc? For me it was Gohan from the beginning of DBZ, a little child with a power lvl of 1 at the start into losing his father at a very young age, into beïng thrown to the wolves by Piccolo in the battle against the saiyans. He sees Krillin, Piccolo and Goku(2 times) die all before the age of 11. Always comes short too saving his friends until het let's it all go in the end to finish Cell and save the earth. Perfect ending imo. I even pretend Buu saga didn't happen.
I'm almost 100% convinced that was going to be the original ending point of dbz.
It probably was at first. When they did the remaster, Dragonball Z Kai, that's where it stopped, and as an ending, it's just so much better.
Stopping at Frieza would have been good too, but I still think the Cell saga was the best place to stop, it elaborated on a lot of relationships that got built earlier on, as well as the whole Gohan thing. That father/son type ending gets a lot more of them feels going. I can see it either way though. The problem with the Cell saga was the whole everyone is a super saiyan now thing, which only got worse...
Oh Buu saga definitely was the worst out of them all. I thought that it was awful and the Cell saga finish was really good. The only good thing was Videl's and Gohan's relationship's buildup
Oh by the way, Final Flash is still stronger than anything Gohan showed.
Oh and about Gohan's storyline, I really liked the very early part where Piccolo seemed like an asshole but grew close with Gohan and then sacrificed himself to save him
On September 26 2013 01:35 obesechicken13 wrote: According to the math Vegito should be stronger than anything in the forseeable future/ the next saga. Seems a bit unfair. You could fuse piccolo with yamcha and get someone Buu level. Maybe not Yamcha. There's no way Vegito is stronger than Buriel. That equation is so broken lol.
Also it was humorous that this turned into a goku vs superman discussion for a while.
Piccolo fused with Yamcha doesn't get rival bonus, so they likely wouldn't be remotely as strong. Remember Kibito and Kaioshin (Supreme Kai)? They're STILL weaker than all of the Saiyans cause of no rival/compatibility bonus.
And yes, Vegito SHOULD be stronger than anything that can come in ANY future that has Goku and Vegeta being alive (this should tell you where I stand on the Vegito vs Billis argument). Vegito>All.
On September 26 2013 03:39 massivez wrote: Yeh, the power gains of base saiyans in the Namek saga where insane. Or rage Gohan for an example from having no chance to beat any of the ginyu members to almost killing Frieza's second transformation after 1 zenkai.
Who do you guys think had the best charachter arc? For me it was Gohan from the beginning of DBZ, a little child with a power lvl of 1 at the start into losing his father at a very young age, into beïng thrown to the wolves by Piccolo in the battle against the saiyans. He sees Krillin, Piccolo and Goku(2 times) die all before the age of 11. Always comes short too saving his friends until het let's it all go in the end to finish Cell and save the earth. Perfect ending imo. I even pretend Buu saga didn't happen.
I'm almost 100% convinced that was going to be the original ending point of dbz.
It probably was at first. When they did the remaster, Dragonball Z Kai, that's where it stopped, and as an ending, it's just so much better.
Actually, DBZ Kai stopped at the end of the Cell Games because it was cancelled due to low ratings in Japan. (I'm guessing all the hardcore DBZ fans protested and bailed at the thought of a third iteration of the Buu Saga.)
I personally like SS3 and the concept of Ultimate Gohan (though his potential SHOULD'VE been unlocked by Guru, his turning Super Saiyan, or when he became Super Saiyan 2 for the first time.
On September 26 2013 05:04 massivez wrote: Frieza was the original intended ending. After that the Cell saga. Should've ended there.
On September 26 2013 06:20 RyLai wrote: Actually, DBZ Kai stopped at the end of the Cell Games because it was cancelled due to low ratings in Japan. (I'm guessing all the hardcore DBZ fans protested and bailed at the thought of a third iteration of the Buu Saga.)
LOL, I didn't know that.
Buu saga was bad in comparison, yeah. I mean, I saw all of it when I was still a kid, so I still love all of it, but that I get.
On September 25 2013 06:51 Dazed_Spy wrote: Zenkai is a load of shit. The second I, as a sayan, learned of it, and procured sensu beans for crying out loud--- I would just impale myself with my fist, and eat a bean. Continue onto infinity. Fuck training, I can just impale myself.
edit: and holy shit once dende gets to earth? when beans run out you just make the plant-guy heal you.
he does expressly state it cant be self inflicted it has to be done by someone else
On September 25 2013 06:51 Dazed_Spy wrote: Zenkai is a load of shit. The second I, as a sayan, learned of it, and procured sensu beans for crying out loud--- I would just impale myself with my fist, and eat a bean. Continue onto infinity. Fuck training, I can just impale myself.
edit: and holy shit once dende gets to earth? when beans run out you just make the plant-guy heal you.
he does expressly state it cant be self inflicted it has to be done by someone else
Goku did a mutiple Kamehameha during his trip to Namek on himself and got a Zenkai off of that.
Well, none of this is even close to how OP Metal Cooler clones are. Also, funny how Cell can lose chunks off of his body and doesn't get a Zenkai unless he blows himself up.
On September 25 2013 06:51 Dazed_Spy wrote: Zenkai is a load of shit. The second I, as a sayan, learned of it, and procured sensu beans for crying out loud--- I would just impale myself with my fist, and eat a bean. Continue onto infinity. Fuck training, I can just impale myself.
edit: and holy shit once dende gets to earth? when beans run out you just make the plant-guy heal you.
he does expressly state it cant be self inflicted it has to be done by someone else
Goku did a mutiple Kamehameha during his trip to Namek on himself and got a Zenkai off of that.
Well, none of this is even close to how OP Metal Cooler clones are. Also, funny how Cell can lose chunks off of his body and doesn't get a Zenkai unless he blows himself up.
I could have swore Vegeta told Krillin that he cant get it off self inflicted injuries wat lolol
On September 25 2013 06:51 Dazed_Spy wrote: Zenkai is a load of shit. The second I, as a sayan, learned of it, and procured sensu beans for crying out loud--- I would just impale myself with my fist, and eat a bean. Continue onto infinity. Fuck training, I can just impale myself.
edit: and holy shit once dende gets to earth? when beans run out you just make the plant-guy heal you.
he does expressly state it cant be self inflicted it has to be done by someone else
Goku did a mutiple Kamehameha during his trip to Namek on himself and got a Zenkai off of that.
Well, none of this is even close to how OP Metal Cooler clones are. Also, funny how Cell can lose chunks off of his body and doesn't get a Zenkai unless he blows himself up.
I could have swore Vegeta told Krillin that he cant get it off self inflicted injuries wat lolol
And this is why Goku is a genius, and Vegeta is second best!
But in all seriousness, AT is a forgetful person so plot conflicts are to be expected, though he still does a good job.
Ah... DBZ, good ol' times. Regarding these crazy DBZ theories, I had a theory once that Akira Toryama as always thought that SSJ4 was the True SSJ form, regarding these next facts:
- A Sayajin's power comes from the tail. - Goku can only transform to SSJ4 after getting his Ape form to SSJ. This happens because he developed enough power to unveil the SSJ form (without tail, blonde hair only) - Vegeta also needs the tail to transform to Ape form. - Only true born Sayajins can get SSJ4 wich means, the true Sayajin. - The blonde hair forms were a mere unleash of power, however far incomplete of the true SSJ form.
On September 26 2013 11:29 HyDrA_solic wrote: Ah... DBZ, good ol' times. Regarding these crazy DBZ theories, I had a theory once that Akira Toryama as always thought that SSJ4 was the True SSJ form, regarding these next facts:
- A Sayajin's power comes from the tail. - Goku can only transform to SSJ4 after getting his Ape form to SSJ. This happens because he developed enough power to unveil the SSJ form (without tail, blonde hair only) - Vegeta also needs the tail to transform to Ape form. - Only true born Sayajins can get SSJ4 wich means, the true Sayajin. - The blonde hair forms were a mere unleash of power, however far incomplete of the true SSJ form.
For some reason, I remember that it was originally planned on finishing at the buu saga or the freeza saga? I dont remember if either of that was the case; anyway, I enjoyed both of them. DBGT....... EHHHH. It was cool.
On September 26 2013 11:29 HyDrA_solic wrote: Ah... DBZ, good ol' times. Regarding these crazy DBZ theories, I had a theory once that Akira Toryama as always thought that SSJ4 was the True SSJ form, regarding these next facts:
- A Sayajin's power comes from the tail. - Goku can only transform to SSJ4 after getting his Ape form to SSJ. This happens because he developed enough power to unveil the SSJ form (without tail, blonde hair only) - Vegeta also needs the tail to transform to Ape form. - Only true born Sayajins can get SSJ4 wich means, the true Sayajin. - The blonde hair forms were a mere unleash of power, however far incomplete of the true SSJ form.
For some reason, I remember that it was originally planned on finishing at the buu saga or the freeza saga? I dont remember if either of that was the case; anyway, I enjoyed both of them. DBGT....... EHHHH. It was cool.
I thought DBGT was alright until I tried watching DBZ then DBGT in succession. The drop in quality was quite significant.
On September 26 2013 01:35 obesechicken13 wrote: According to the math Vegito should be stronger than anything in the forseeable future/ the next saga. Seems a bit unfair. You could fuse piccolo with yamcha and get someone Buu level. Maybe not Yamcha. There's no way Vegito is stronger than Buriel. That equation is so broken lol.
Also it was humorous that this turned into a goku vs superman discussion for a while.
Piccolo fused with Yamcha doesn't get rival bonus, so they likely wouldn't be remotely as strong. Remember Kibito and Kaioshin (Supreme Kai)? They're STILL weaker than all of the Saiyans cause of no rival/compatibility bonus.
And yes, Vegito SHOULD be stronger than anything that can come in ANY future that has Goku and Vegeta being alive (this should tell you where I stand on the Vegito vs Billis argument). Vegito>All.
Where did you get your formula from?
I know Vegito is strong but nowhere does it say that you can just multiply two power levels together when you fuse them. Isn't that like illogical? (Yes, even in a world where glowing haired half monkey aliens fly and punch each other to fight even though they have the speed to fly to the other end of the galaxy in seconds and blow up suns, I want my math to work out). x+y=z not x*y=z. That's how fusion works. The fusion is more perfect which means they can stay together forever, but it doesn't mean they're that much stronger than regular fusion.
Also Gohan is strong for beating cell juniors, but I remember him losing to Broly in the second movie. Doesn't that make Broly stronger than Gohan? At the least there is some inconsistency. Broly did lose to Goku, but that was because Goku took power from everyone else and then put it all into one punch and got lucky it was against the same area Broly got stabbed when he was 1 day old. That hardly counts. Broly was probably toying with the Z fighters. + Show Spoiler +
On even footing, Broly's SS1 was stronger than anyone else's SS1.
On September 26 2013 01:35 obesechicken13 wrote: According to the math Vegito should be stronger than anything in the forseeable future/ the next saga. Seems a bit unfair. You could fuse piccolo with yamcha and get someone Buu level. Maybe not Yamcha. There's no way Vegito is stronger than Buriel. That equation is so broken lol.
Also it was humorous that this turned into a goku vs superman discussion for a while.
Piccolo fused with Yamcha doesn't get rival bonus, so they likely wouldn't be remotely as strong. Remember Kibito and Kaioshin (Supreme Kai)? They're STILL weaker than all of the Saiyans cause of no rival/compatibility bonus.
And yes, Vegito SHOULD be stronger than anything that can come in ANY future that has Goku and Vegeta being alive (this should tell you where I stand on the Vegito vs Billis argument). Vegito>All.
Where did you get your formula from?
I know Vegito is strong but nowhere does it say that you can just multiply two power levels together when you fuse them. Isn't that like illogical? (yes in a world where glowing haired half monkey aliens fly and punch each even to fight even though they have the speed to fly to the other end of the galaxy in seconds and blow up suns, I want my math to work out). x+y=z not x*y=z. That's how fusion works. The fusion is more perfect which means they can stay together forever, but it doesn't mean they're that much stronger than regular fusion.
Also Gohan is strong for beating cell juniors, but I remember him losing to Broly in the second movie. Doesn't that make Broly stronger than Gohan? At the least there is some inconsistency. Broly did lose to Goku, but that was because Goku took power from everyone else and then put it all into one punch and got lucky it was against the same area Broly got stabbed when he was 1 day old. That hardly counts. Broly was probably toying with the Z fighters. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3d6WsnzngU
On even footing, Broly's SS1 was stronger than anyone else's SS1.
Since movies are just filler BS I think it's impossible to make any decent ratings. That said (and it was ages since I watched the movie), Gohan never goes SSJ2 against Broly, right? Acording to the list, Gohan is only stronger than Broly in SSJ2 form, which sounds correct to me.
On September 26 2013 01:35 obesechicken13 wrote: According to the math Vegito should be stronger than anything in the forseeable future/ the next saga. Seems a bit unfair. You could fuse piccolo with yamcha and get someone Buu level. Maybe not Yamcha. There's no way Vegito is stronger than Buriel. That equation is so broken lol.
Also it was humorous that this turned into a goku vs superman discussion for a while.
Piccolo fused with Yamcha doesn't get rival bonus, so they likely wouldn't be remotely as strong. Remember Kibito and Kaioshin (Supreme Kai)? They're STILL weaker than all of the Saiyans cause of no rival/compatibility bonus.
And yes, Vegito SHOULD be stronger than anything that can come in ANY future that has Goku and Vegeta being alive (this should tell you where I stand on the Vegito vs Billis argument). Vegito>All.
Where did you get your formula from?
I know Vegito is strong but nowhere does it say that you can just multiply two power levels together when you fuse them. Isn't that like illogical? (yes in a world where glowing haired half monkey aliens fly and punch each even to fight even though they have the speed to fly to the other end of the galaxy in seconds and blow up suns, I want my math to work out). x+y=z not x*y=z. That's how fusion works. The fusion is more perfect which means they can stay together forever, but it doesn't mean they're that much stronger than regular fusion.
Also Gohan is strong for beating cell juniors, but I remember him losing to Broly in the second movie. Doesn't that make Broly stronger than Gohan? At the least there is some inconsistency. Broly did lose to Goku, but that was because Goku took power from everyone else and then put it all into one punch and got lucky it was against the same area Broly got stabbed when he was 1 day old. That hardly counts. Broly was probably toying with the Z fighters. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3d6WsnzngU
On even footing, Broly's SS1 was stronger than anyone else's SS1.
Since movies are just filler BS I think it's impossible to make any decent ratings. That said (and it was ages since I watched the movie), Gohan never goes SSJ2 against Broly, right? Acording to the list, Gohan is only stronger than Broly in SSJ2 form, which sounds correct to me.
Doesn't Brolys power level grow exponentially or something though and that's why they put the controller thing on him? He is the legendary ssj after all :0
I'm not super up to date on DBZ lore but can you explain why Gohan became such a bitch in the Buu saga? I understand that he wasn't training hardcore like previous but it just never made sense to me how he could be literally the only savior of earth and then be a weak pansy a few years later.
On September 26 2013 16:55 Foblos wrote: I'm not super up to date on DBZ lore but can you explain why Gohan became such a bitch in the Buu saga? I understand that he wasn't training hardcore like previous but it just never made sense to me how he could be literally the only savior of earth and then be a weak pansy a few years later.
It's honestly not much more than that. No training, no reason to become stronger, nothing to trigger his hidden potential. Seems to me that Gohan was never all that interested in fighting, he was just born with ridiculous power.
On September 26 2013 16:55 Foblos wrote: I'm not super up to date on DBZ lore but can you explain why Gohan became such a bitch in the Buu saga? I understand that he wasn't training hardcore like previous but it just never made sense to me how he could be literally the only savior of earth and then be a weak pansy a few years later.
It's honestly not much more than that. No training, no reason to become stronger, nothing to trigger his hidden potential. Seems to me that Gohan was never all that interested in fighting, he was just born with ridiculous power.
This is obviously the generally accepted reason, but it doesn't make sense though. What's the whole point of that "ultimate ritual" that's supposed to release all your dormant potential? Everyone else unlocked their potential and got stronger by training. Gohan was always "lazier" but was allowed access to "all" his potential because of the ritual. Whether he trains after that should be of no consequence. At the very least, his power level should stay the same. Obviously, the others could still get stronger by training and maybe become stronger than him.
edit: holy sh*t I misread the original post; he was referring to the transition between cell and buu
On September 24 2013 05:33 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: Just going through the list you have alot of numbers that are way off. Example is Goku super sayain during Freiza saga is 15 million not 150 million. So you can make alot of adjustments on it.
I've attached a spoiler below with the correct numbering from DBZ (if you want a DB and a GT let me know. Even though GT is a total failure.)
Time: Raditz Battle Farmer 5 Gohan 1-710 Gohan really angry 1, 130 Goku 334 Goku without heavy clothes 416 Goku Kamehameha 924 Krillin 206 Master Roshi 160 Piccolo 322 Piccolo without weighted clothes 408 Piccolo Makankosappo (first try) 1,330 Piccolo Makankosappo (second try) 1,440 Raditz 1,200 Tien 250 Turtle 0.001 Yamcha 177
Time: Saiya-jin Battle Chaozu 610 Gohan 981 Masenko 2,800 Oozaru 9,810-28,000 Goku 5,000 Goku charged up 8,000 Goku Kaio-Ken 12,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x2 16,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x3 24,000 Goku Kaio-Ken x4+Kamehameha 32,000 Krillin 1,083 - max 1,770 Nappa 4,000 Piccolo 1,220 - max 3,500 Saibamen 1,200 Tien 1,830 Vegeta 18,000 Oozaru 180,000 Yamcha 1,480
Time: Freeza Saga Gohan 1,500 Gohan after Guru charge 12,500 Gohan after Senzu Heal 17,000 Gohan while fighting Freeza 20,000 Krillin 1,500 Krillin after Guru's charge 11,000 Krillin after Senzu Heal 16,500 Krillin after Dende's Heal 19,000 Freeza's Henchmen 500 Kui 19,000 Dodoria 21,000 Zarbon 23,000 - Transformed 33,000 Vegeta 24,000 Vegeta after Zarbon Fight 35,000 Vegeta after Recoome Fight 300,000 Vegeta after Krillin's Attack 1,000,000 Guldo 10,000 Recoome 40,000 Burter 45,000 Jeice 50,000 Captain Ginyu 120,000 Ginyu In Goku's Body 23,000 Nail 42,000 Dende 10 Piccolo 200,000 Piccolo after fusion with Nail 800,000 Piccolo after Dende Heal 1,500,000 Goku 5,000 Goku after gravity training 180,000 Goku after Ginyu fight 300,000 Goku kaio-Ken x10 3,000,000 Goku kaio-Ken x20 6,000,000 Goku Super Saiyan 15,000,000 Freiza 530,000 Freiza form 2 1,000,000 Freiza form 3 2,500,000 Freiza final Form 4,000,000 Freiza 50% of max 6,000,000 Freiza 70% of max 8,400,000 Freiza 100% of max 12,000,000
Time: Garlic Jr. Saga Garlic Jr. 1,000,000 Garlic Jr. transformed 4,000,000 Gohan 900,000 Gohan really masenko 4,500,000 Kami 300,000 Krillin 600,000 Piccolo 2,000,000
Time: Trunks Saga Vegeta 4,000,000 Piccolo 3,000,000 Gohan 1,000,000 Krillin 750,000 Tien 800,000 Yamcha 700,000 Chaozu 500,000 Freeza's Henchmen 5,000 Freeza bot 12,500,000 King Cold 13,000,000 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 18,000,000 Surpressed 5 Super Saiya-jin Goku 20,000,000
Time: Android Saga Super Saiyan Goku 23,000,000 Goku sick 5,000,000 Goku after room of spirit and time 110,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 25,000,000 Vegeta after room of spirit and time 90,000,00 Super Saiya-jin Trunks 20,000,000 Trunks Ultra Super Saiyan 130,000,000 Piccolo 18,000,000 Piccolo after fusion with Kami 40,000,000 Gohan 6,000,000 Gohan after room of spirit and time 120,000,000 Krillin 4,500,000 Tien 4,000,000 Yamcha 3,000,000 Android 16 40,000,000 Android 17 35,000,000 Android 18 35,000,000 Android 19 10,000,000 Android 20 5,000,000 Cell 35,000,000 Cell after absorbing humans 45,000,000 Cell after absorbing Android 17 65,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000
Time: Cell Saga Super Saiyan Trunks 105,000,000 Super Saiyan Vegeta 100,000,000 Super Saiyan Gohan 130,000,000 SSJ2 Gohan 325,000,000 Super Saiyan Goku 120,000,000 Piccolo 60,000,000 Perfect Cell 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
Majin Buu Saga
Fat Buu: 45,000,000 Majin Buu: 80,000,000 Good Buu: 55,000,000 Bad Buu: 65,000,000 Super Buu: 70,000,000 Ultimate Buu: 50,000,000 Majin Gotunks Buu: 90,000,000 Majin Veggetto Buu: 100,000,000 Goku: 5,000,000 Goku: super saiyan: 27,000,000 Goku: super saiyan 2: 49,500,000 Goku: super saiyan 3: 79,999,999 Goku: genki-dama: 100,000,000 Piccolo: 26,000,000 Gohan: 3,000,000 Gohan: super saiyan: 25,000,000 Gohan: with the Z sword: 53,000,000 Goten: 1,500,000 Goten: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Trunks: 1,500,000 Trunks: super saiyan: 10,000,000 Gotunks: 3,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan: 20,000,000 Gotunks: super saiyan 3: 75,000,000 Vegeta: 5,000,000 Vegeta: super saiyan: 26,500,000 Vegeta: super saiyan 2: 49,000,000 Veggetto: 10,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan: 53,000,000 Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000
There are tons of things wrong in your list, especially during the Cell and Buu Saga, somehow everyone in Buu is weaker than Perfect Cell, when obviously that is not true. Even SSJ 3 Goku is weaker than Cell, who got his ass handed by SSJ2 Gohan. It's fun to make up numbers, but the official formulas have been ignored real badly.
agree with this especially this part: Veggetto: super saiyan 2: 99,500,000 Perfect cell: 125,000,000 Super Perfect Cell 300,000,000
My thoughts were, what? cell is stronger than vegitto? The character who played around with Super Buu even kicking his ass when he was a piece of candy XD
To be fair he was a jaw breaker.
One of the problems with the assumption that "Frieza must be XX" etc, is what if DBZ fighting is like Tennis? In tennis, even being slightly better at the game results in total domination.
Frieza MUST be at least a third of the stated power level given in the Daizenshuu. I just did the math. And being slightly better in tennis doesn't result in total domination unless we're talking about true NTRP ratings. A .5 difference in NTRP is actually a large difference in skill (one example is of it being the difference between an absolute beginner and someone who can actually hit the ball inside the lines somewhat consistently during practice). Also, with Tennis, physical performance varies a lot because there's always a luck factor (tennis at it's absolute core is a game of percentages, meaning nothing is absolute and being unlucky by itself can mean defeat in the worst case scenario) and that no NORMAL human can keep up the same level of performance for long periods of time (DBZ doesn't consist of normal humans though, or even humans for that matter).
Let me just say it like this: I Can 6-0 6-0 my Brother, Who Can 6-0 6-0 my sister. There is no discernible difference between them to me. Now, the same is true for a pair of my friends who can crush me. 6-0 or 6-1. One of them has a brother who beats him 6-0/6-1 and our other friend Sam beats all of us easily 6-0. Now Sam is good, but any ATP pro would 6-0 his ass. And most of those get Dominated by a guy like Isner 6-0 or 6-1, and he gets slaughtered by guys like Nadal and Djoker.
And these are just regular humans we are talking about (basically all power lvl 5-6 in DBZ). The fact is, you dont have to be much stronger than another DBZ character to beat them. 1% might be able to do.
On top of that, I still think the Super Saiyan multipliers are BS post-initial-transformation.
If you can double bagel someone, you can easily double bagel someone they can easily beat. There'd be no difference to you, cause you're on a different level. If you were to view them subjectively with the knowledge of a high level coach, you'd notice a key difference(s).
Also, Isner loses to Nadal and Djokovic, but he won't get consistently bageled by them. Even Federer didn't do that and Federer was the king of handing out bagels and breadsticks.
A difference of 1% leads to a life and death battle similar to Tien vs Goku, Piccolo Sr. vs Goku, and Piccolo Jr. vs Goku during the Tenkaichi Budokai. It's an unpredictable fight and either person can win.
Again, if you don't follow a set multiplier system, you're literally just pulling numbers out of your ass with no system to follow other than the comparison system. In that case, comparisons between characters that never fight against one another are impossible to make unless they both fought against the same person, at the same time, and had noticeably different results. This means, it would be impossible to say that SS Gotenks>SS3 Goku. I could say SS3 Goku>SS3 Gotenks and you could NEVER EVER make a solid argument against me. With the set multiplier system, you can easily say that I was being a Goku fanboy and nothing more. That's not the only bullshit comparison I could make. I could also say that SS3 Goku>Super Buu (Gotenks Absorbed)>Ultimate Gohan, therefore meaning SS3 Goku>Ultimate Gohan, which we KNOW to be false. However, you have no hard evidence to refute me other than Goku's word that he can't beat Super Buu (he fights Super Buu in the anime, and takes a hell of a lot less damage than Gohan did; no data in the manga). Do you see how stupid fighting against the multiplier system is? Yeah, people who sit towards the middle of the system get screwed, but the numbers for the people on the outer limits (or who have been on the outer limits and haven't powered up by an unknown amount) are stable.
Also, if you go with the decreasing multiplier theory, I have a single rebuttal that destroys it: Kaioken x10. If it's not stronger than Kaioken x10, it's a dead (preferably has to be stronger than Kaioken x20 also, otherwise he would use it in desperate times, like against Buu). Pretty hard to argue the multiplier system, or rather, it's extremely easy to argue for it, and I've yet to see any legitimate argument to refute it except for bickering over what the SS2 and SS3 multipliers are.
That's cool and all, but there's 1 thing they don't take into account that destroys the entire model: Kaioken.
At one point, Base Goku is 65 million and SS Goku is 210 million (or something like that). That means, Kaioken x5>Super Saiyan. That means Super Saiyan becomes entirely irrelevant and Goku might as well go Kaioken x10 and use that for his battles.
Again, set multiplier system, otherwise we can make up whatever we want as long as there's no hard evidence to dispute it, like SS3 Goku being stronger than SS3 Gotenks (which isn't true since you can measure SS3 Gotenks' power in units of SS3 Gokus, which I guess I'll call "3ku"s from now on).
No, the model is probably the most comprehensive one out there. It definitely factors in Kaioken. The model speculates that Kaioken's strain on the body becomes unmanageable (depending on species, physical condition etc.) such that it never really rivals SSJ's higher forms (ascended, ultra, 2 and 3). SSJ, on the other hand, is a reservoir of power that does not rely on the body's condition aside from the energy required to transition to SSJ. Read the fic's special chapters. I like your model but davidstarlingm's model is the best reasoned model for DBZ power levels yet.
Edit:
USSJ, he proposes, is similar to Kaioken in that it channels and traps ki into one's body for unsustainable bursts/periods of additional power.
On September 26 2013 11:29 HyDrA_solic wrote: Ah... DBZ, good ol' times. Regarding these crazy DBZ theories, I had a theory once that Akira Toryama as always thought that SSJ4 was the True SSJ form, regarding these next facts:
- A Sayajin's power comes from the tail. - Goku can only transform to SSJ4 after getting his Ape form to SSJ. This happens because he developed enough power to unveil the SSJ form (without tail, blonde hair only) - Vegeta also needs the tail to transform to Ape form. - Only true born Sayajins can get SSJ4 wich means, the true Sayajin. - The blonde hair forms were a mere unleash of power, however far incomplete of the true SSJ form.
Should be noted that Akira Toriyama didn't come up with SSJ4 and he didn't design the form either.
On September 26 2013 19:22 1ntrigue wrote: No, the model is probably the most comprehensive one out there. It definitely factors in Kaioken. The model speculates that Kaioken's strain on the body becomes unmanageable (depending on species, physical condition etc.) such that it never really rivals SSJ's higher forms (ascended, ultra, 2 and 3). SSJ, on the other hand, is a reservoir of power that does not rely on the body's condition aside from the energy required to transition to SSJ. Read the fic's special chapters. I like your model but davidstarlingm's model is the best reasoned model for DBZ power levels yet.
Edit:
USSJ, he proposes, is similar to Kaioken in that it channels and traps ki into one's body for unsustainable bursts/periods of additional power.
No. It's still 100% utter bullshit, because Kaiokenx2 is roughly equivalent to SS, which is BEYOND EASY to manage. Goku can easily maintain Kaioken x10. This makes all forms of Super Saiyan in his model 100% useless.
It "speculates" that the strain on the body is unmanageable based on the species and physical condition. Goku's proven that as long as he doesn't use a Kaioken above the limits his body can handle (his comfortable max was x10 in the Frieza Saga), so the whole Kaioken being weaker than Super Saiyan even though Kaioken makes you stronger than Super Saiyan is an utter bullshit argument.
I'm not proposing anything. I'm just giving out numbers based on known character comparisons and known multipliers (except ASS and USS).
USS can't be compared to Kaioken. USS uses ki to increase muscle mass, that's it. From there, you use the muscle mass itself for increased strength and additional damage on your attacks. However, the additional mass slows you down. Not only that, it's DEFINITELY not used for burst periods of time. It's a fully continuous transformation that takes an ungodly amount of energy to sustain.
On September 26 2013 01:35 obesechicken13 wrote: According to the math Vegito should be stronger than anything in the forseeable future/ the next saga. Seems a bit unfair. You could fuse piccolo with yamcha and get someone Buu level. Maybe not Yamcha. There's no way Vegito is stronger than Buriel. That equation is so broken lol.
Also it was humorous that this turned into a goku vs superman discussion for a while.
Piccolo fused with Yamcha doesn't get rival bonus, so they likely wouldn't be remotely as strong. Remember Kibito and Kaioshin (Supreme Kai)? They're STILL weaker than all of the Saiyans cause of no rival/compatibility bonus.
And yes, Vegito SHOULD be stronger than anything that can come in ANY future that has Goku and Vegeta being alive (this should tell you where I stand on the Vegito vs Billis argument). Vegito>All.
Where did you get your formula from?
I know Vegito is strong but nowhere does it say that you can just multiply two power levels together when you fuse them. Isn't that like illogical? (Yes, even in a world where glowing haired half monkey aliens fly and punch each other to fight even though they have the speed to fly to the other end of the galaxy in seconds and blow up suns, I want my math to work out). x+y=z not x*y=z. That's how fusion works. The fusion is more perfect which means they can stay together forever, but it doesn't mean they're that much stronger than regular fusion.
Also Gohan is strong for beating cell juniors, but I remember him losing to Broly in the second movie. Doesn't that make Broly stronger than Gohan? At the least there is some inconsistency. Broly did lose to Goku, but that was because Goku took power from everyone else and then put it all into one punch and got lucky it was against the same area Broly got stabbed when he was 1 day old. That hardly counts. Broly was probably toying with the Z fighters. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3d6WsnzngU
On even footing, Broly's SS1 was stronger than anyone else's SS1.
Formula is from SEG. When they asked AT about fusion, he responded that "it was more [like] multiplication than addition".
Multiplying the power levels together initially seemed illogical to me as well, until I did the math . You'd imagine 2 people well over 1 million to create absolute bullshit levels of strength when compared to everyone else. But it wasn't as far off as I initially imagined, which is part of why I posted these numbers - to prove that the SEG multipliers all work very well. Part of the reason it works though, is that Gotenks in base is stronger than SS2 Majin Vegeta, and he can go SS3 on top of that (even implied that base Gotenks post-HBTC/RoSaT is stronger than SS Gotenks before training, which closes the gap even more, but is mathematically too difficult to believe).
And like I said, the math worked out. Look at the numbers, they actually fit. Fusion dance fusion PROBABLY works like addition with a multiplier (AT didn't comment on it), but Potara is multiplication (most likely with a reduction multiplier).
And Potara is stated to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regular fusion.
LSS Broly>100% SS Gohan, but SS2 Teen Gohan>>>>>>Broly. There is no inconsistency. The same exact situation occurs with Cell and Dabura. It is consistent. Don't forget, Buu Saga Gohan is MUCH weaker than Cell Games Gohan.
SS Broly hasn't proven himself stronger than base Goku, which is super weird, but eh, it's a movie (which is why I avoided doing calculations for his other forms and avoid movies in general). On even footing, Broly's SS is the same as everyone else's. It's just SS, a 50x multiplier. His LSS form however, is obviously of a higher multiplier.
On September 26 2013 01:35 obesechicken13 wrote: According to the math Vegito should be stronger than anything in the forseeable future/ the next saga. Seems a bit unfair. You could fuse piccolo with yamcha and get someone Buu level. Maybe not Yamcha. There's no way Vegito is stronger than Buriel. That equation is so broken lol.
Also it was humorous that this turned into a goku vs superman discussion for a while.
Piccolo fused with Yamcha doesn't get rival bonus, so they likely wouldn't be remotely as strong. Remember Kibito and Kaioshin (Supreme Kai)? They're STILL weaker than all of the Saiyans cause of no rival/compatibility bonus.
And yes, Vegito SHOULD be stronger than anything that can come in ANY future that has Goku and Vegeta being alive (this should tell you where I stand on the Vegito vs Billis argument). Vegito>All.
Where did you get your formula from?
I know Vegito is strong but nowhere does it say that you can just multiply two power levels together when you fuse them. Isn't that like illogical? (yes in a world where glowing haired half monkey aliens fly and punch each even to fight even though they have the speed to fly to the other end of the galaxy in seconds and blow up suns, I want my math to work out). x+y=z not x*y=z. That's how fusion works. The fusion is more perfect which means they can stay together forever, but it doesn't mean they're that much stronger than regular fusion.
Also Gohan is strong for beating cell juniors, but I remember him losing to Broly in the second movie. Doesn't that make Broly stronger than Gohan? At the least there is some inconsistency. Broly did lose to Goku, but that was because Goku took power from everyone else and then put it all into one punch and got lucky it was against the same area Broly got stabbed when he was 1 day old. That hardly counts. Broly was probably toying with the Z fighters. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3d6WsnzngU
On even footing, Broly's SS1 was stronger than anyone else's SS1.
Since movies are just filler BS I think it's impossible to make any decent ratings. That said (and it was ages since I watched the movie), Gohan never goes SSJ2 against Broly, right? Acording to the list, Gohan is only stronger than Broly in SSJ2 form, which sounds correct to me.
Gohan actually went SS2 that fight.
If you look at the art, SS High School Gohan has 2 strands of hair over his forehead. SS2 Gohan has only 1 strand of hair, just like in the Cell Games. I know AT has been bad about forgetting to put in the SS2 sparks, but I'd've hoped the anime would've been better about it... Though I guess if they followed the manga art completely, they wouldn't know about it... It'd be funny though if they actually intended it to be SS, but forgot what the SS art was and ended up making it SS2 cause AT always forgets to detail the sparks (this is why it's not fully clear whether Super Vegito is SS2 or SS). But yeah, based on the art, it is SS2 Gohan (who is very weak in comparison to literally every other SS2 in the story).
On September 26 2013 16:55 Foblos wrote: I'm not super up to date on DBZ lore but can you explain why Gohan became such a bitch in the Buu saga? I understand that he wasn't training hardcore like previous but it just never made sense to me how he could be literally the only savior of earth and then be a weak pansy a few years later.
Well, strength deteriorates with time if you do not train your full strength. Also he is probably out of training when it comes to fighting in general. And he isn't that weak of a pansy, I think I remember Goku and Vegeta saying that Dabra (who Gohan fought) was almost as strong as perfect Cell.
On September 26 2013 01:35 obesechicken13 wrote: According to the math Vegito should be stronger than anything in the forseeable future/ the next saga. Seems a bit unfair. You could fuse piccolo with yamcha and get someone Buu level. Maybe not Yamcha. There's no way Vegito is stronger than Buriel. That equation is so broken lol.
Also it was humorous that this turned into a goku vs superman discussion for a while.
Piccolo fused with Yamcha doesn't get rival bonus, so they likely wouldn't be remotely as strong. Remember Kibito and Kaioshin (Supreme Kai)? They're STILL weaker than all of the Saiyans cause of no rival/compatibility bonus.
And yes, Vegito SHOULD be stronger than anything that can come in ANY future that has Goku and Vegeta being alive (this should tell you where I stand on the Vegito vs Billis argument). Vegito>All.
Where did you get your formula from?
I know Vegito is strong but nowhere does it say that you can just multiply two power levels together when you fuse them. Isn't that like illogical? (yes in a world where glowing haired half monkey aliens fly and punch each even to fight even though they have the speed to fly to the other end of the galaxy in seconds and blow up suns, I want my math to work out). x+y=z not x*y=z. That's how fusion works. The fusion is more perfect which means they can stay together forever, but it doesn't mean they're that much stronger than regular fusion.
Also Gohan is strong for beating cell juniors, but I remember him losing to Broly in the second movie. Doesn't that make Broly stronger than Gohan? At the least there is some inconsistency. Broly did lose to Goku, but that was because Goku took power from everyone else and then put it all into one punch and got lucky it was against the same area Broly got stabbed when he was 1 day old. That hardly counts. Broly was probably toying with the Z fighters. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3d6WsnzngU
On even footing, Broly's SS1 was stronger than anyone else's SS1.
Since movies are just filler BS I think it's impossible to make any decent ratings. That said (and it was ages since I watched the movie), Gohan never goes SSJ2 against Broly, right? Acording to the list, Gohan is only stronger than Broly in SSJ2 form, which sounds correct to me.
Gohan actually went SS2 that fight.
If you look at the art, SS High School Gohan has 2 strands of hair over his forehead. SS2 Gohan has only 1 strand of hair, just like in the Cell Games. I know AT has been bad about forgetting to put in the SS2 sparks, but I'd've hoped the anime would've been better about it... Though I guess if they followed the manga art completely, they wouldn't know about it... It'd be funny though if they actually intended it to be SS, but forgot what the SS art was and ended up making it SS2 cause AT always forgets to detail the sparks (this is why it's not fully clear whether Super Vegito is SS2 or SS). But yeah, based on the art, it is SS2 Gohan (who is very weak in comparison to literally every other SS2 in the story).
Not only that, but why would Gohan fight in SS1 if he was losing/about to die when he could be SS2?
On September 26 2013 16:55 Foblos wrote: I'm not super up to date on DBZ lore but can you explain why Gohan became such a bitch in the Buu saga? I understand that he wasn't training hardcore like previous but it just never made sense to me how he could be literally the only savior of earth and then be a weak pansy a few years later.
Well, strength deteriorates with time if you do not train your full strength. Also he is probably out of training when it comes to fighting in general. And he isn't that weak of a pansy, I think I remember Goku and Vegeta saying that Dabra (who Gohan fought) was almost as strong as perfect Cell.
Gohan lost half his power and still wiped the floor with super perfect cell. He had to of lost half his strength just by idling a couple years. What I could never accept is THAT he idled. People say 'he was never interested in fighting' but I dont see it. He always seem excited to see new powers and abilities, and beyond that, Gohan wasnt an idiot. How many times was the earth almost wiped out from an exterior threat in his life time? It happened at least five times, and if we want to count some filler-- dozens. He was told to protect the planet by his Father and instead, this virtual God like child [he can move faster than the speed of light by several thousand multiples, given Raditz could go faster for god sakes, he can fly, destroy planets without trying--- really he could probably wipe out the universe with a single blast if he wanted] instead spends his days studying? At that, he lives in the mountains away from civilization, he lives in seemingly desperate poverty. What in the hell was he doing with his time outside of studying? Why would chi chi, or Gohan, have such drastic material ambitions when hes as close to a God and protector of Earth as one could possibly conceive of?
On September 26 2013 16:55 Foblos wrote: I'm not super up to date on DBZ lore but can you explain why Gohan became such a bitch in the Buu saga? I understand that he wasn't training hardcore like previous but it just never made sense to me how he could be literally the only savior of earth and then be a weak pansy a few years later.
Well, strength deteriorates with time if you do not train your full strength. Also he is probably out of training when it comes to fighting in general. And he isn't that weak of a pansy, I think I remember Goku and Vegeta saying that Dabra (who Gohan fought) was almost as strong as perfect Cell.
Gohan lost half his power and still wiped the floor with super perfect cell. He had to of lost half his strength just by idling a couple years. What I could never accept is THAT he idled. People say 'he was never interested in fighting' but I dont see it. He always seem excited to see new powers and abilities, and beyond that, Gohan wasnt an idiot. How many times was the earth almost wiped out from an exterior threat in his life time? It happened at least five times, and if we want to count some filler-- dozens. He was told to protect the planet by his Father and instead, this virtual God like child [he can move faster than the speed of light by several thousand multiples, given Raditz could go faster for god sakes, he can fly, destroy planets without trying--- really he could probably wipe out the universe with a single blast if he wanted] instead spends his days studying? At that, he lives in the mountains away from civilization, he lives in seemingly desperate poverty. What in the hell was he doing with his time outside of studying? Why would chi chi, or Gohan, have such drastic material ambitions when hes as close to a God and protector of Earth as one could possibly conceive of?
On September 26 2013 16:55 Foblos wrote: I'm not super up to date on DBZ lore but can you explain why Gohan became such a bitch in the Buu saga? I understand that he wasn't training hardcore like previous but it just never made sense to me how he could be literally the only savior of earth and then be a weak pansy a few years later.
Well, strength deteriorates with time if you do not train your full strength. Also he is probably out of training when it comes to fighting in general. And he isn't that weak of a pansy, I think I remember Goku and Vegeta saying that Dabra (who Gohan fought) was almost as strong as perfect Cell.
Gohan lost half his power and still wiped the floor with super perfect cell. He had to of lost half his strength just by idling a couple years. What I could never accept is THAT he idled. People say 'he was never interested in fighting' but I dont see it. He always seem excited to see new powers and abilities, and beyond that, Gohan wasnt an idiot. How many times was the earth almost wiped out from an exterior threat in his life time? It happened at least five times, and if we want to count some filler-- dozens. He was told to protect the planet by his Father and instead, this virtual God like child [he can move faster than the speed of light by several thousand multiples, given Raditz could go faster for god sakes, he can fly, destroy planets without trying--- really he could probably wipe out the universe with a single blast if he wanted] instead spends his days studying? At that, he lives in the mountains away from civilization, he lives in seemingly desperate poverty. What in the hell was he doing with his time outside of studying? Why would chi chi, or Gohan, have such drastic material ambitions when hes as close to a God and protector of Earth as one could possibly conceive of?
It was just stupid. Dexter ending level stupid.
I really feel the same about this. The worst part is that he just so happens to become the strongest unfused fighter in the complete series (aside from the new movie) without doing fucking anything. He just sits on his ass and becomes thousands of times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, who had to work his ass of for this! And what does he do with his powers? Let's his little fucking brother and his stupid friend nearly ruin the party completely, instead of just killing Boo as fast as possible (but I guess this is a common theme in the series, so this shouldn't be mentioned :D )
As long as we're talking about Gohan vs Super Buu: I find Gohan's "I'm smarter than Piccolo" line to be absolutely hilarious ("I'm stronger than my brother ans smarter than piccolo" is what he said in response to Buu absorbing both of them).
On September 27 2013 07:10 LegalLord wrote: As long as we're talking about Gohan vs Super Buu: I find Gohan's "I'm smarter than Piccolo" line to be absolutely hilarious ("I'm stronger than my brother ans smarter than piccolo" is what he said in response to Buu absorbing both of them).
Well I dunno, Piccolo once let Frieza turn into his third form mid fight.
You should consider using exponents (1.3*10^13)or make up a unit so you can use prefixes like M(ega), G(iga)etc... That would make the list both easier to understand, and the whole thing looks much more scientific (and thus cooler)
On September 26 2013 01:35 obesechicken13 wrote: According to the math Vegito should be stronger than anything in the forseeable future/ the next saga. Seems a bit unfair. You could fuse piccolo with yamcha and get someone Buu level. Maybe not Yamcha. There's no way Vegito is stronger than Buriel. That equation is so broken lol.
Also it was humorous that this turned into a goku vs superman discussion for a while.
Piccolo fused with Yamcha doesn't get rival bonus, so they likely wouldn't be remotely as strong. Remember Kibito and Kaioshin (Supreme Kai)? They're STILL weaker than all of the Saiyans cause of no rival/compatibility bonus.
And yes, Vegito SHOULD be stronger than anything that can come in ANY future that has Goku and Vegeta being alive (this should tell you where I stand on the Vegito vs Billis argument). Vegito>All.
Where did you get your formula from?
I know Vegito is strong but nowhere does it say that you can just multiply two power levels together when you fuse them. Isn't that like illogical? (yes in a world where glowing haired half monkey aliens fly and punch each even to fight even though they have the speed to fly to the other end of the galaxy in seconds and blow up suns, I want my math to work out). x+y=z not x*y=z. That's how fusion works. The fusion is more perfect which means they can stay together forever, but it doesn't mean they're that much stronger than regular fusion.
Also Gohan is strong for beating cell juniors, but I remember him losing to Broly in the second movie. Doesn't that make Broly stronger than Gohan? At the least there is some inconsistency. Broly did lose to Goku, but that was because Goku took power from everyone else and then put it all into one punch and got lucky it was against the same area Broly got stabbed when he was 1 day old. That hardly counts. Broly was probably toying with the Z fighters. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3d6WsnzngU
On even footing, Broly's SS1 was stronger than anyone else's SS1.
Since movies are just filler BS I think it's impossible to make any decent ratings. That said (and it was ages since I watched the movie), Gohan never goes SSJ2 against Broly, right? Acording to the list, Gohan is only stronger than Broly in SSJ2 form, which sounds correct to me.
Gohan actually went SS2 that fight.
If you look at the art, SS High School Gohan has 2 strands of hair over his forehead. SS2 Gohan has only 1 strand of hair, just like in the Cell Games. I know AT has been bad about forgetting to put in the SS2 sparks, but I'd've hoped the anime would've been better about it... Though I guess if they followed the manga art completely, they wouldn't know about it... It'd be funny though if they actually intended it to be SS, but forgot what the SS art was and ended up making it SS2 cause AT always forgets to detail the sparks (this is why it's not fully clear whether Super Vegito is SS2 or SS). But yeah, based on the art, it is SS2 Gohan (who is very weak in comparison to literally every other SS2 in the story).
Not only that, but why would Gohan fight in SS1 if he was losing/about to die when he could be SS2?
Cause Gohan tends to not like going full out and loves getting beat off. Remember the Cell Games incident? Gohan was taking a hard one to the face!
On September 27 2013 05:32 rave[wcr] wrote: so what is the power level of Bills in this? im also interested in how strong Janemba is
Under the spoiler for SS God. Bills is 100trillion, and he was fighting at 70% vs Goku (70trillion).
That's a minimal estimate. Could be 10, 100, or even 1000x that number. I made it a minimal estimate because otherwise the Super Saiyan God multiplier would be... Well... Beyond retarded... It's already at like... A million isn't it? lol 50 times that, and you have Vegito!
On September 27 2013 08:23 Simberto wrote: You should consider using exponents (1.3*10^13)or make up a unit so you can use prefixes like M(ega), G(iga)etc... That would make the list both easier to understand, and the whole thing looks much more scientific (and thus cooler)
That is actually a beyond sick good idea! Thanks! I'll add that in on the next update. I redid a lot of the numbers and am seeing if I can make some cuts to the recent recalculations cause... Well the numbers got even bigger cause with the interpretation of what Trunks says with regards to the androids is this:
1) SS Gohan (future) was around half of Future 17 when Future 17 killed him. 2) SS Trunks is around the same or a little stronger, so he's 50% or 60% or Future 17 when being as strong as SS Goku from Namek (150 mil). 3) Later, he says, "In my time, I was at least able to give them a decent fight", which implies something like 70-80% of the future androids. 4) When watching Vegeta fight 18, he thinks is fighting well against 18, meaning Vegeta did better than Trunks ever did against the androids of his time (80%-90% of 18, who's weaker than 17) 5) He basically gets 1-shot by the androids of Goku's timeline, leading me to estimate him at 40-50% of those androids (50% so the numbers inflate less).
Basically, this means the androids are like 450 million, putting suppressed Cell probably around 1.5 billion. :/
Also gotta decide if SS Gohan>SS Goku or not. Cell basically thinks Gohan is inferior until he found out about his rage, which makes it seem like Goku is stronger. But Gohan thought Cell and Goku weren't trying because they felt inferior compared to him. And Goku and Vegeta basically used Gohan vs Cell as the benchmark of strength. If they were already stronger but didn't have access to SS2, being stronger than Gohan when they did get SS2 shouldn't be a surprise. This leads me to believe SS Gohan>SS Goku (cause there is more evidence supporting it than the other way around). Makes the numbers look a bit better... But feels weird (even though I know it should be true, some of the dialog makes me feel iffy on it).
On September 27 2013 08:14 Elasticity wrote: so Goku + Vegeta fusion is still the most OP thing even more than super saiyanjin god thing
The silliest thing in the movie was asking shenron for super saiyan god instead of asking for potara earrings :3
Ive looked in several places but cant find this movie. Where can I watch it?
I posted a link in the OP under the sources. There's one part that's buggy when a song is playing and they didn't format the text properly (so you see the text code), but that's like 2-3 minutes of the movie, and not much dialog goes on at that time anyway (you can still read the dialog too, but it might take a bit of effort).
On September 26 2013 01:35 obesechicken13 wrote: According to the math Vegito should be stronger than anything in the forseeable future/ the next saga. Seems a bit unfair. You could fuse piccolo with yamcha and get someone Buu level. Maybe not Yamcha. There's no way Vegito is stronger than Buriel. That equation is so broken lol.
Also it was humorous that this turned into a goku vs superman discussion for a while.
Piccolo fused with Yamcha doesn't get rival bonus, so they likely wouldn't be remotely as strong. Remember Kibito and Kaioshin (Supreme Kai)? They're STILL weaker than all of the Saiyans cause of no rival/compatibility bonus.
And yes, Vegito SHOULD be stronger than anything that can come in ANY future that has Goku and Vegeta being alive (this should tell you where I stand on the Vegito vs Billis argument). Vegito>All.
Where did you get your formula from?
I know Vegito is strong but nowhere does it say that you can just multiply two power levels together when you fuse them. Isn't that like illogical? (yes in a world where glowing haired half monkey aliens fly and punch each even to fight even though they have the speed to fly to the other end of the galaxy in seconds and blow up suns, I want my math to work out). x+y=z not x*y=z. That's how fusion works. The fusion is more perfect which means they can stay together forever, but it doesn't mean they're that much stronger than regular fusion.
Also Gohan is strong for beating cell juniors, but I remember him losing to Broly in the second movie. Doesn't that make Broly stronger than Gohan? At the least there is some inconsistency. Broly did lose to Goku, but that was because Goku took power from everyone else and then put it all into one punch and got lucky it was against the same area Broly got stabbed when he was 1 day old. That hardly counts. Broly was probably toying with the Z fighters. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3d6WsnzngU
On even footing, Broly's SS1 was stronger than anyone else's SS1.
Since movies are just filler BS I think it's impossible to make any decent ratings. That said (and it was ages since I watched the movie), Gohan never goes SSJ2 against Broly, right? Acording to the list, Gohan is only stronger than Broly in SSJ2 form, which sounds correct to me.
Gohan actually went SS2 that fight.
If you look at the art, SS High School Gohan has 2 strands of hair over his forehead. SS2 Gohan has only 1 strand of hair, just like in the Cell Games. I know AT has been bad about forgetting to put in the SS2 sparks, but I'd've hoped the anime would've been better about it... Though I guess if they followed the manga art completely, they wouldn't know about it... It'd be funny though if they actually intended it to be SS, but forgot what the SS art was and ended up making it SS2 cause AT always forgets to detail the sparks (this is why it's not fully clear whether Super Vegito is SS2 or SS). But yeah, based on the art, it is SS2 Gohan (who is very weak in comparison to literally every other SS2 in the story).
Oh, you're talking about the second coming of Broly. I never watched that movie. I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's inconsistent though, but don't bring Akira Toriyama into it, he had nothing to do with any movies except the battle of the gods one. It was written by a bunch of dudes at Toei who probably had no idea how badly SSJ2 gohan should have owned LSSJ Broly.
On September 26 2013 16:55 Foblos wrote: I'm not super up to date on DBZ lore but can you explain why Gohan became such a bitch in the Buu saga? I understand that he wasn't training hardcore like previous but it just never made sense to me how he could be literally the only savior of earth and then be a weak pansy a few years later.
Well, strength deteriorates with time if you do not train your full strength. Also he is probably out of training when it comes to fighting in general. And he isn't that weak of a pansy, I think I remember Goku and Vegeta saying that Dabra (who Gohan fought) was almost as strong as perfect Cell.
Gohan lost half his power and still wiped the floor with super perfect cell. He had to of lost half his strength just by idling a couple years. What I could never accept is THAT he idled. People say 'he was never interested in fighting' but I dont see it. He always seem excited to see new powers and abilities, and beyond that, Gohan wasnt an idiot. How many times was the earth almost wiped out from an exterior threat in his life time? It happened at least five times, and if we want to count some filler-- dozens. He was told to protect the planet by his Father and instead, this virtual God like child [he can move faster than the speed of light by several thousand multiples, given Raditz could go faster for god sakes, he can fly, destroy planets without trying--- really he could probably wipe out the universe with a single blast if he wanted] instead spends his days studying? At that, he lives in the mountains away from civilization, he lives in seemingly desperate poverty. What in the hell was he doing with his time outside of studying? Why would chi chi, or Gohan, have such drastic material ambitions when hes as close to a God and protector of Earth as one could possibly conceive of?
It was just stupid. Dexter ending level stupid.
I really feel the same about this. The worst part is that he just so happens to become the strongest unfused fighter in the complete series (aside from the new movie) without doing fucking anything. He just sits on his ass and becomes thousands of times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, who had to work his ass of for this! And what does he do with his powers? Let's his little fucking brother and his stupid friend nearly ruin the party completely, instead of just killing Boo as fast as possible (but I guess this is a common theme in the series, so this shouldn't be mentioned :D )
You guys underestimate the overbearing nature of Chi-chi, Gohan is and always will be a mama's boy, and Goku is out of the picture after Cell
On September 27 2013 17:38 SChlafmann wrote: Wait, what? 16 more powerful than 17 and 18 ? I don't remember it this way. I have always considered 16 as the weak one. Am I that wrong ?
16 was pretty clearly more powerful than 17 and 18. He put up a good fight against First Form Cell when neither of them could.
On September 26 2013 16:55 Foblos wrote: I'm not super up to date on DBZ lore but can you explain why Gohan became such a bitch in the Buu saga? I understand that he wasn't training hardcore like previous but it just never made sense to me how he could be literally the only savior of earth and then be a weak pansy a few years later.
Well, strength deteriorates with time if you do not train your full strength. Also he is probably out of training when it comes to fighting in general. And he isn't that weak of a pansy, I think I remember Goku and Vegeta saying that Dabra (who Gohan fought) was almost as strong as perfect Cell.
Gohan lost half his power and still wiped the floor with super perfect cell. He had to of lost half his strength just by idling a couple years. What I could never accept is THAT he idled. People say 'he was never interested in fighting' but I dont see it. He always seem excited to see new powers and abilities, and beyond that, Gohan wasnt an idiot. How many times was the earth almost wiped out from an exterior threat in his life time? It happened at least five times, and if we want to count some filler-- dozens. He was told to protect the planet by his Father and instead, this virtual God like child [he can move faster than the speed of light by several thousand multiples, given Raditz could go faster for god sakes, he can fly, destroy planets without trying--- really he could probably wipe out the universe with a single blast if he wanted] instead spends his days studying? At that, he lives in the mountains away from civilization, he lives in seemingly desperate poverty. What in the hell was he doing with his time outside of studying? Why would chi chi, or Gohan, have such drastic material ambitions when hes as close to a God and protector of Earth as one could possibly conceive of?
It was just stupid. Dexter ending level stupid.
I really feel the same about this. The worst part is that he just so happens to become the strongest unfused fighter in the complete series (aside from the new movie) without doing fucking anything. He just sits on his ass and becomes thousands of times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, who had to work his ass of for this! And what does he do with his powers? Let's his little fucking brother and his stupid friend nearly ruin the party completely, instead of just killing Boo as fast as possible (but I guess this is a common theme in the series, so this shouldn't be mentioned :D )
You guys underestimate the overbearing nature of Chi-chi, Gohan is and always will be a mama's boy, and Goku is out of the picture after Cell
Yeah but his Father was still alive and well, Piccolo. Har har.
But seriously. Gohan told no to chi chi before, and all his friends and close family [save chi chi] live and breathe to defend the earth, and train. And for that matter, its implausible [even for an asian parent -_-] to refuse her godlike son training, in order to protect the planet, given every 2-3 months someone comes down, beats all the z fighters to within an inch of their life and wipes out half a continent of people. It was just a bad excuse to reinject goku/vegeta as the primary characters in the show/manga.
On September 26 2013 16:55 Foblos wrote: I'm not super up to date on DBZ lore but can you explain why Gohan became such a bitch in the Buu saga? I understand that he wasn't training hardcore like previous but it just never made sense to me how he could be literally the only savior of earth and then be a weak pansy a few years later.
Well, strength deteriorates with time if you do not train your full strength. Also he is probably out of training when it comes to fighting in general. And he isn't that weak of a pansy, I think I remember Goku and Vegeta saying that Dabra (who Gohan fought) was almost as strong as perfect Cell.
Gohan lost half his power and still wiped the floor with super perfect cell. He had to of lost half his strength just by idling a couple years. What I could never accept is THAT he idled. People say 'he was never interested in fighting' but I dont see it. He always seem excited to see new powers and abilities, and beyond that, Gohan wasnt an idiot. How many times was the earth almost wiped out from an exterior threat in his life time? It happened at least five times, and if we want to count some filler-- dozens. He was told to protect the planet by his Father and instead, this virtual God like child [he can move faster than the speed of light by several thousand multiples, given Raditz could go faster for god sakes, he can fly, destroy planets without trying--- really he could probably wipe out the universe with a single blast if he wanted] instead spends his days studying? At that, he lives in the mountains away from civilization, he lives in seemingly desperate poverty. What in the hell was he doing with his time outside of studying? Why would chi chi, or Gohan, have such drastic material ambitions when hes as close to a God and protector of Earth as one could possibly conceive of?
It was just stupid. Dexter ending level stupid.
I really feel the same about this. The worst part is that he just so happens to become the strongest unfused fighter in the complete series (aside from the new movie) without doing fucking anything. He just sits on his ass and becomes thousands of times stronger than SSJ3 Goku, who had to work his ass of for this! And what does he do with his powers? Let's his little fucking brother and his stupid friend nearly ruin the party completely, instead of just killing Boo as fast as possible (but I guess this is a common theme in the series, so this shouldn't be mentioned :D )
You guys underestimate the overbearing nature of Chi-chi, Gohan is and always will be a mama's boy, and Goku is out of the picture after Cell
Yeah but his Father was still alive and well, Piccolo. Har har.
But seriously. Gohan told no to chi chi before, and all his friends and close family [save chi chi] live and breathe to defend the earth, and train. And for that matter, its implausible [even for an asian parent -_-] to refuse her godlike son training, in order to protect the planet, given every 2-3 months someone comes down, beats all the z fighters to within an inch of their life and wipes out half a continent of people. It was just a bad excuse to reinject goku/vegeta as the primary characters in the show/manga.
I fully agree.
the whole "goku passing the torch to gohan"-story of the cellgames would have made for a really nice ending to dbz, but since they decided to continue, they had to somehow make goku the main hero again.
On September 27 2013 17:38 SChlafmann wrote: Wait, what? 16 more powerful than 17 and 18 ? I don't remember it this way. I have always considered 16 as the weak one. Am I that wrong ?
yep, 16 was probably stronger than both of them combined.