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On May 26 2014 06:05 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 06:00 Nyxisto wrote:On May 26 2014 05:45 SoSexy wrote: So many haters in this thread. There's a reason parties like FN win, and it is to blame on years of 'politically correct' policies (mainly by the Left) that went WAY too far in the name of multiculturalism. this is exactly the kind of attitude I am talking about, and it will get us in big trouble over the next decades on this continent. No matter how the economy is going to do. How the fuck can you live in the 21st century and claim that multiculturalism is a bad thing. The only reason this forum exists is that people from very different cultures don't give a crap about that and do great stuff together. Multiculturalism PER SE is not a bad thing. It is bad when every critics towards it is rejected in name of the principle itself. The problem of the next century won't be me, it will be radical islam which is already rooted in our societies in the name of mutual respect and comprehension. But don't you dare criticize it, you bigot racist...
Same here Multiculturalism isnt too bad, but only if the right cultures are invited. Radical muslims and roma do not fit into our society. We already have hundreds of "german" youths going to fight for islam in Syria. This will only get worse... The right in Germany is ridicilous though, I will probably emigrate myself and leave you to your multicultural (till the muslims make up the majority) paradise.
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On May 26 2014 06:05 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 06:04 Douillos wrote:On May 26 2014 06:03 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 06:01 Douillos wrote:On May 26 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 05:27 GL999et1000 wrote: The word "smart" does not have the same meaning for you and me that is all. The day I will find that run away from problems is smart is not arrived. Ok I will elaborate a little. The FN is a nationalist party at core. During Le Pen's era, that nationalism was also backed up by some kind of racism and xenophobia and they were, with that, for economic liberalism (Le Pen wanted to be the french Reagan). But, with Marine Le Pen's (the daughter), the FN "smartly" took most of the critics coming from the non institutionalised far left and made it their own. They took Sapir's and Lordon's critics toward the europe (far left economists) to a point were those economists had to defend themselves from being from the FN ! In the same vein, they actually defend France's social security, they defend the retirement at 60, they push for an increase in the minimum wage, they repeat non stop that they are "against liberalism and globalization". They put themselves as the only opposition to what is judged (rightfully I might say) to be the core reason of our social problems. On May 26 2014 05:30 Douillos wrote:On May 26 2014 04:33 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 04:26 Douillos wrote:On May 26 2014 04:15 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 04:13 Douillos wrote: [quote]
A quick example is that without the PAC, there would not be any form of agriculture left in France.
I can't believe how many people are actually trying to defend the FN party. Numerous cases of racism have been reported in new towns won by this Party after the municipal elections.
And when I read people saying it's a "socialist & patriotic party" , I really feel sad to live in France (FYI I'm irish but grew up her). Everytime a party member opens his mouth, it's to bring the debate back to the eternal "immigrants are the problem, they steal our jobs and take advantage of our healthcare". For fucks sake, they were able to spend a large part of the presidential debate on the problem of halal food in schools.
The FN party is an extremist, racist party, and they only thing that makes it worse is that their political program is a crock of shit, filled with ideas that wouldnt have even worked 50 years ago.
The real thing is that most people in France just don't give a fuck enough to lose 2 hours to go and vote on a sunday afternoon, probably spent most of it watching Rolland Garros. Participation 45% = 25% FN, nothing else. That party is a joke and I firmly believe that you have to be brainwashed and/or mentally challenge to actually believe that they could be anything else than trouble for France as an industrial & economically competitive country.
I just hope people here will wake the fuck and go vote next time. Seriously ? Do you know anything about protectionism ? So France can't protect its agriculture now ? Sure, but at what price? What do you think the response of countries you are importing food from is going to be when you tax goods coming in to the country? Well, I'll tell you, they are going to do the same thing on the products you are exporting to them. And what does that mean? That means exportations going down, French companies being even less competitive, jobs disapearing etc. We are no longer in a world where you can just decide to start imposing protectionist measure without facing massive retaliation So what do we do? North korean style, Red Khmer maybe? The FN is from another century, it's just a response to the fears of many who have no idea how shit works nowadays and that the only way is to protect ourselves from the "invaders". A more powerful Europe is the best way to protect our quality of life and I'm really disappointed that people don't get that. I will not take the time to point out how stupid the idea of competitivity is if you put the world protectionism before it. If the state say a specific branch is competitive, then it is, that's protectionism. All countries use it, and when we refused to siege in the european institutions to negociate the PAC, we were in fact doing protectionism - it is not a bad thing, it is intelligence. A more powerful Europe, you mean an europe with macroeconomic policies ? Yes, but right now the Europe cannot deliver, open your eyes, look at the unemployment and the growth, do you think it is all because of the french ? I don't really get what you are trying to say. "If the state say a specific branch is competitive, then it is, that's protectionism." You are right to say that Europe has not delivered, but losing hope is definitly not the way to go... Because anything else is even less of a good idea! Competitivity is a microeconomic term (at the level of firms). From a macroeconomic perspective, you can change the competitivity of a nation in a few seconds (with the exchange rate of your money or with law). China and Germany are competitive because they have underevaluated currency, we are not because we have an over evaluated currency and because we have a social security that push our labor cost high. Basically, the state have the tools to make an entire nation competitive, because it is the state that makes the rules that permit the exchange. Protectionism is one of those tools (how do you think EDF is now one of the biggest energy firm in the world ? because we protected it during the firty glorious). Wow, so you really think the reason France could "easily" become competitive again, by devaluating the currency? And then how would you import the materials needed to assemble? Yes easily, the problem is the price in terms of purchasing power and living condition for the french. Purchasing anything else than French made products would be a problem. Yes. But that's not a bad thing for unemployment tho, it would force our internal production to propose substitutions. That's working really well for North Korea. .. Not. With our modern level of globalization, there are no such easy solutions as just devaluing your currency and try to go autarkic to make everything magically alright. That's way too simplistic an approach.
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On May 26 2014 06:18 ACrow wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 06:05 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 06:04 Douillos wrote:On May 26 2014 06:03 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 06:01 Douillos wrote:On May 26 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 05:27 GL999et1000 wrote: The word "smart" does not have the same meaning for you and me that is all. The day I will find that run away from problems is smart is not arrived. Ok I will elaborate a little. The FN is a nationalist party at core. During Le Pen's era, that nationalism was also backed up by some kind of racism and xenophobia and they were, with that, for economic liberalism (Le Pen wanted to be the french Reagan). But, with Marine Le Pen's (the daughter), the FN "smartly" took most of the critics coming from the non institutionalised far left and made it their own. They took Sapir's and Lordon's critics toward the europe (far left economists) to a point were those economists had to defend themselves from being from the FN ! In the same vein, they actually defend France's social security, they defend the retirement at 60, they push for an increase in the minimum wage, they repeat non stop that they are "against liberalism and globalization". They put themselves as the only opposition to what is judged (rightfully I might say) to be the core reason of our social problems. On May 26 2014 05:30 Douillos wrote:On May 26 2014 04:33 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 04:26 Douillos wrote:On May 26 2014 04:15 WhiteDog wrote: [quote] Seriously ? Do you know anything about protectionism ? So France can't protect its agriculture now ? Sure, but at what price? What do you think the response of countries you are importing food from is going to be when you tax goods coming in to the country? Well, I'll tell you, they are going to do the same thing on the products you are exporting to them. And what does that mean? That means exportations going down, French companies being even less competitive, jobs disapearing etc. We are no longer in a world where you can just decide to start imposing protectionist measure without facing massive retaliation So what do we do? North korean style, Red Khmer maybe? The FN is from another century, it's just a response to the fears of many who have no idea how shit works nowadays and that the only way is to protect ourselves from the "invaders". A more powerful Europe is the best way to protect our quality of life and I'm really disappointed that people don't get that. I will not take the time to point out how stupid the idea of competitivity is if you put the world protectionism before it. If the state say a specific branch is competitive, then it is, that's protectionism. All countries use it, and when we refused to siege in the european institutions to negociate the PAC, we were in fact doing protectionism - it is not a bad thing, it is intelligence. A more powerful Europe, you mean an europe with macroeconomic policies ? Yes, but right now the Europe cannot deliver, open your eyes, look at the unemployment and the growth, do you think it is all because of the french ? I don't really get what you are trying to say. "If the state say a specific branch is competitive, then it is, that's protectionism." You are right to say that Europe has not delivered, but losing hope is definitly not the way to go... Because anything else is even less of a good idea! Competitivity is a microeconomic term (at the level of firms). From a macroeconomic perspective, you can change the competitivity of a nation in a few seconds (with the exchange rate of your money or with law). China and Germany are competitive because they have underevaluated currency, we are not because we have an over evaluated currency and because we have a social security that push our labor cost high. Basically, the state have the tools to make an entire nation competitive, because it is the state that makes the rules that permit the exchange. Protectionism is one of those tools (how do you think EDF is now one of the biggest energy firm in the world ? because we protected it during the firty glorious). Wow, so you really think the reason France could "easily" become competitive again, by devaluating the currency? And then how would you import the materials needed to assemble? Yes easily, the problem is the price in terms of purchasing power and living condition for the french. Purchasing anything else than French made products would be a problem. Yes. But that's not a bad thing for unemployment tho, it would force our internal production to propose substitutions. That's working really well for North Korea. .. Not. With our modern level of globalization, there are no such easy solutions as just devaluing your currency and try to go autarkic to make everything magically alright. That's way too simplistic an approach. North Korea ? What are you talking about ? That's not a simplistic approach, that's basic economy since the XVIIIth century. It's like when I talk about inflation and people respond that the weimar hyperinflation was bad... There is a difference in scale in here.
Protectionism is used by ALL countries in the world, through laws and various negotiations at different level. The Europe is one of the least protective place on earth (even our tariff is lower than most, at 1.6ish % if I recall, and we use protective less laws than others). The United State, intelligently, protect some specific branch of their economy to permit them from taking off. I'm am not talking about secluding ourself from others, just intelligent localized protectionism, like Friedrich List or Stuart Mill theorized.
One day, Germany will wake up and understand that its dogmatism will cause its downfall (I give them 5 to 10 years). I don't care, if they don't bring us with them.
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Out of curiosity, what do you teach WhiteDog?
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On May 26 2014 06:25 Spaylz wrote: Out of curiosity, what do you teach WhiteDog? Economy and sociology (SES).
I might make a fixation on the euro tho, I find it responsible for most of our trouble.
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I'm considering leaving France after having finished my studies. I don't want to live in a country where 1 person out of 4 votes for a fascist parti...
Any politic program with the goal to limit the liberties (of religion, movement etc) is a really bad thing.
Anyway, humanity forgets quickly its past...17 days after the the Vday celebrating the end of a 50Million+ deaths war started because of a similar situation as today. it disgusts me
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On May 26 2014 06:23 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 06:18 ACrow wrote:On May 26 2014 06:05 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 06:04 Douillos wrote:On May 26 2014 06:03 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 06:01 Douillos wrote:On May 26 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 05:27 GL999et1000 wrote: The word "smart" does not have the same meaning for you and me that is all. The day I will find that run away from problems is smart is not arrived. Ok I will elaborate a little. The FN is a nationalist party at core. During Le Pen's era, that nationalism was also backed up by some kind of racism and xenophobia and they were, with that, for economic liberalism (Le Pen wanted to be the french Reagan). But, with Marine Le Pen's (the daughter), the FN "smartly" took most of the critics coming from the non institutionalised far left and made it their own. They took Sapir's and Lordon's critics toward the europe (far left economists) to a point were those economists had to defend themselves from being from the FN ! In the same vein, they actually defend France's social security, they defend the retirement at 60, they push for an increase in the minimum wage, they repeat non stop that they are "against liberalism and globalization". They put themselves as the only opposition to what is judged (rightfully I might say) to be the core reason of our social problems. On May 26 2014 05:30 Douillos wrote:On May 26 2014 04:33 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 04:26 Douillos wrote: [quote]
Sure, but at what price? What do you think the response of countries you are importing food from is going to be when you tax goods coming in to the country? Well, I'll tell you, they are going to do the same thing on the products you are exporting to them. And what does that mean? That means exportations going down, French companies being even less competitive, jobs disapearing etc. We are no longer in a world where you can just decide to start imposing protectionist measure without facing massive retaliation
So what do we do? North korean style, Red Khmer maybe? The FN is from another century, it's just a response to the fears of many who have no idea how shit works nowadays and that the only way is to protect ourselves from the "invaders".
A more powerful Europe is the best way to protect our quality of life and I'm really disappointed that people don't get that. I will not take the time to point out how stupid the idea of competitivity is if you put the world protectionism before it. If the state say a specific branch is competitive, then it is, that's protectionism. All countries use it, and when we refused to siege in the european institutions to negociate the PAC, we were in fact doing protectionism - it is not a bad thing, it is intelligence. A more powerful Europe, you mean an europe with macroeconomic policies ? Yes, but right now the Europe cannot deliver, open your eyes, look at the unemployment and the growth, do you think it is all because of the french ? I don't really get what you are trying to say. "If the state say a specific branch is competitive, then it is, that's protectionism." You are right to say that Europe has not delivered, but losing hope is definitly not the way to go... Because anything else is even less of a good idea! Competitivity is a microeconomic term (at the level of firms). From a macroeconomic perspective, you can change the competitivity of a nation in a few seconds (with the exchange rate of your money or with law). China and Germany are competitive because they have underevaluated currency, we are not because we have an over evaluated currency and because we have a social security that push our labor cost high. Basically, the state have the tools to make an entire nation competitive, because it is the state that makes the rules that permit the exchange. Protectionism is one of those tools (how do you think EDF is now one of the biggest energy firm in the world ? because we protected it during the firty glorious). Wow, so you really think the reason France could "easily" become competitive again, by devaluating the currency? And then how would you import the materials needed to assemble? Yes easily, the problem is the price in terms of purchasing power and living condition for the french. Purchasing anything else than French made products would be a problem. Yes. But that's not a bad thing for unemployment tho, it would force our internal production to propose substitutions. That's working really well for North Korea. .. Not. With our modern level of globalization, there are no such easy solutions as just devaluing your currency and try to go autarkic to make everything magically alright. That's way too simplistic an approach. North Korea ? What are you talking about ? That's not a simplistic approach, that's basic economy since the XVIIIth century. It's like when I talk about inflation and people respond that the weimar hyperinflation was bad... There is a difference in scale in here. Protectionism is used by ALL countries in the world, through laws and various negotiations at different level. The Europe is one of the least protective place on earth (even our tariff is lower than most, at 1.6ish % if I recall, and we use protective less laws than others). The United State, intelligently, protect some specific branch of their economy to permit them from taking off. I'm am not talking about secluding ourself from others, just intelligent localized protectionism, like Friedrich List or Stuart Mill theorized. One day, Germany will wake up and understand that its dogmatism will cause its downfall (I give them 5 to 10 years). I don't care, if they don't bring us with them.
Only powerful countries can negotiate properly. The EU could negotiate on equal grounds. European countries individually would get laughed at when they would try to set their terms.
And that last sentence of yours... Man you FN boys & girls know how to make fools of yourselves.
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On May 26 2014 06:27 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 06:25 Spaylz wrote: Out of curiosity, what do you teach WhiteDog? Economy and sociology (SES). I might make a fixation on the euro tho, I find it responsible for most of our trouble.
The idea of you teaching is scary.
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On May 26 2014 06:27 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 06:25 Spaylz wrote: Out of curiosity, what do you teach WhiteDog? Economy and sociology (SES). I might make a fixation on the euro tho, I find it responsible for most of our trouble.
A friend of mine shares your opinions, and believes the strong value of the euro is responsible for our lack of progress. Myself, I am not educated enough on the topic to really have an opinion, but it seems that while the EU is a good idea (at least in theory), the euro was sort of rushed and really only profits to Germany.
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On May 26 2014 06:08 Makro wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 06:05 Zetter wrote:On May 26 2014 05:58 SoSexy wrote:On May 26 2014 05:57 Zetter wrote:On May 26 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 05:27 GL999et1000 wrote: The word "smart" does not have the same meaning for you and me that is all. The day I will find that run away from problems is smart is not arrived. Ok I will elaborate a little. The FN is a nationalist party at core. During Le Pen's era, that nationalism was also backed up by some kind of racism and xenophobia and they were, with that, for economic liberalism (Le Pen wanted to be the french Reagan). But, with Marine Le Pen's (the daughter), the FN "smartly" took most of the critics coming from the non institutionalised far left and made it their own. They took Sapir's and Lordon's critics toward the europe (far left economists) to a point were those economists had to defend themselves from being from the FN ! In the same vein, they actually defend France's social security, they defend the retirement at 60, they push for an increase in the minimum wage, they repeat non stop that they are "against liberalism and globalization". They put themselves as the only opposition to what is judged (rightfully I might say) to be the core reason of our social problems. I don't see how this is not comparable to the NSDAP. The FN acts exactly like the NSDAP acted in Germany in 1933. Nationalize banks and other economic branches, increase tariffs, return to traditional values, rejection of modern art, shut down liberties of muslims, reintroduce the death penalty, call for social justice. Do you think the NSDAP went into the elections with "gas the jews"? And do you think that FN will gas the jews when they'll reach power? This is way beyond ridicolous. Nobody thought of that in 33 either. The FN has such a glaringly nationalist program that even the german Neo-Nazi party appears more moderate. dude really ? edit : FN got most of their vote from young people and workers (respectively 30% and 43%) source : http://www.lemonde.fr/politique/article/2014/05/25/le-fn-obtient-ses-meilleurs-scores-chez-les-jeunes-et-les-ouvriers_4425625_823448.html (sorry it is in french)
Yup, really. You might want to compare the election program of the FN with the one of the NPD. They're strikingly similar. Here's the program of the NPD (in German, I don't know if they publish anything in English) The demographics are also very similar. The NPD gets most of their votes from young people and workers (or unemployed workers), too. (Source in German as well: )
On May 26 2014 06:32 Spaylz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 06:27 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 06:25 Spaylz wrote: Out of curiosity, what do you teach WhiteDog? Economy and sociology (SES). I might make a fixation on the euro tho, I find it responsible for most of our trouble. A friend of mine shares your opinions, and believes the strong value of the euro is responsible for our lack of progress. Myself, I am not educated enough on the topic to really have an opinion, but it seems that while the EU is a good idea (at least in theory), the euro was sort of rushed and really only profits to Germany.
That's quite funny, because France forced it onto Germany in 1989.
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On May 26 2014 06:29 Douillos wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 06:23 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 06:18 ACrow wrote:On May 26 2014 06:05 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 06:04 Douillos wrote:On May 26 2014 06:03 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 06:01 Douillos wrote:On May 26 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 05:27 GL999et1000 wrote: The word "smart" does not have the same meaning for you and me that is all. The day I will find that run away from problems is smart is not arrived. Ok I will elaborate a little. The FN is a nationalist party at core. During Le Pen's era, that nationalism was also backed up by some kind of racism and xenophobia and they were, with that, for economic liberalism (Le Pen wanted to be the french Reagan). But, with Marine Le Pen's (the daughter), the FN "smartly" took most of the critics coming from the non institutionalised far left and made it their own. They took Sapir's and Lordon's critics toward the europe (far left economists) to a point were those economists had to defend themselves from being from the FN ! In the same vein, they actually defend France's social security, they defend the retirement at 60, they push for an increase in the minimum wage, they repeat non stop that they are "against liberalism and globalization". They put themselves as the only opposition to what is judged (rightfully I might say) to be the core reason of our social problems. On May 26 2014 05:30 Douillos wrote:On May 26 2014 04:33 WhiteDog wrote: [quote] I will not take the time to point out how stupid the idea of competitivity is if you put the world protectionism before it. If the state say a specific branch is competitive, then it is, that's protectionism.
All countries use it, and when we refused to siege in the european institutions to negociate the PAC, we were in fact doing protectionism - it is not a bad thing, it is intelligence. A more powerful Europe, you mean an europe with macroeconomic policies ? Yes, but right now the Europe cannot deliver, open your eyes, look at the unemployment and the growth, do you think it is all because of the french ? I don't really get what you are trying to say. "If the state say a specific branch is competitive, then it is, that's protectionism." You are right to say that Europe has not delivered, but losing hope is definitly not the way to go... Because anything else is even less of a good idea! Competitivity is a microeconomic term (at the level of firms). From a macroeconomic perspective, you can change the competitivity of a nation in a few seconds (with the exchange rate of your money or with law). China and Germany are competitive because they have underevaluated currency, we are not because we have an over evaluated currency and because we have a social security that push our labor cost high. Basically, the state have the tools to make an entire nation competitive, because it is the state that makes the rules that permit the exchange. Protectionism is one of those tools (how do you think EDF is now one of the biggest energy firm in the world ? because we protected it during the firty glorious). Wow, so you really think the reason France could "easily" become competitive again, by devaluating the currency? And then how would you import the materials needed to assemble? Yes easily, the problem is the price in terms of purchasing power and living condition for the french. Purchasing anything else than French made products would be a problem. Yes. But that's not a bad thing for unemployment tho, it would force our internal production to propose substitutions. That's working really well for North Korea. .. Not. With our modern level of globalization, there are no such easy solutions as just devaluing your currency and try to go autarkic to make everything magically alright. That's way too simplistic an approach. North Korea ? What are you talking about ? That's not a simplistic approach, that's basic economy since the XVIIIth century. It's like when I talk about inflation and people respond that the weimar hyperinflation was bad... There is a difference in scale in here. Protectionism is used by ALL countries in the world, through laws and various negotiations at different level. The Europe is one of the least protective place on earth (even our tariff is lower than most, at 1.6ish % if I recall, and we use protective less laws than others). The United State, intelligently, protect some specific branch of their economy to permit them from taking off. I'm am not talking about secluding ourself from others, just intelligent localized protectionism, like Friedrich List or Stuart Mill theorized. One day, Germany will wake up and understand that its dogmatism will cause its downfall (I give them 5 to 10 years). I don't care, if they don't bring us with them. Only powerful countries can negotiate properly. The EU could negotiate on equal grounds. European countries individually would get laughed at when they would try to set their terms. And that last sentence of yours... Man you FN boys & girls know how to make fools of yourselves. I'm not FN, but I don't really care.
France is the fifth economic power and you think we have no bargaining power... I'll let Krugman respond to the rest :
Most discussion about the possibility of secular stagnation has focused on US data, partly because most of the new secular stagnationists are American, partly because the data are easier to work with. But as Izabella Kaminska and James Mackintosh point out, the euro area seems closer to Japanification than the US. So are there structural changes in Europe that arguably will lead to persistently lower demand unless offset by policy? Indeed there are. Start with demography: a falling rate of growth in the working-age population leads, other things equal, to lower investment as a share of GDP, because there is less need to equip workers with new factories, office buildings, houses, etc. And if we look at working-age population for the US, the euro area (EA), and Japan we see that Europe is now where Japan was around 1998, when I and other Japan worriers started talking in earnest about liquidity traps: Add to this the end of ever-increasing leverage. In the US we focus on how ever-growing household debt was a major source of demand before 2008, which won’t come back; in Europe much the same was going on, but it also makes sense to focus on a different measure, large capital flows to peripheral countries, which won’t come back even if the woes of austerity abate. And these flows were a big part of overall European demand before the crisis: So with a shrinking working-age population and without the boost to demand caused by the capital-flow bubble, Europe is extremely likely to have a significantly lower natural real rate of interest heading forward than it had in the past. This in turn suggests that it’s a really really bad idea to let inflation drift down, whether or not it turns into outright deflation. http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/05/17/secular-stagnation-in-the-euro-area/?module=BlogPost-Title&version=Blog Main&contentCollection=Opinion&action=Click&pgtype=Blogs®ion=Body&gwh=64D09AA1706E7E4EA4DFB4333180AC08&gwt=pay
On May 26 2014 06:32 Zetter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 06:08 Makro wrote:On May 26 2014 06:05 Zetter wrote:On May 26 2014 05:58 SoSexy wrote:On May 26 2014 05:57 Zetter wrote:On May 26 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 05:27 GL999et1000 wrote: The word "smart" does not have the same meaning for you and me that is all. The day I will find that run away from problems is smart is not arrived. Ok I will elaborate a little. The FN is a nationalist party at core. During Le Pen's era, that nationalism was also backed up by some kind of racism and xenophobia and they were, with that, for economic liberalism (Le Pen wanted to be the french Reagan). But, with Marine Le Pen's (the daughter), the FN "smartly" took most of the critics coming from the non institutionalised far left and made it their own. They took Sapir's and Lordon's critics toward the europe (far left economists) to a point were those economists had to defend themselves from being from the FN ! In the same vein, they actually defend France's social security, they defend the retirement at 60, they push for an increase in the minimum wage, they repeat non stop that they are "against liberalism and globalization". They put themselves as the only opposition to what is judged (rightfully I might say) to be the core reason of our social problems. I don't see how this is not comparable to the NSDAP. The FN acts exactly like the NSDAP acted in Germany in 1933. Nationalize banks and other economic branches, increase tariffs, return to traditional values, rejection of modern art, shut down liberties of muslims, reintroduce the death penalty, call for social justice. Do you think the NSDAP went into the elections with "gas the jews"? And do you think that FN will gas the jews when they'll reach power? This is way beyond ridicolous. Nobody thought of that in 33 either. The FN has such a glaringly nationalist program that even the german Neo-Nazi party appears more moderate. dude really ? edit : FN got most of their vote from young people and workers (respectively 30% and 43%) source : http://www.lemonde.fr/politique/article/2014/05/25/le-fn-obtient-ses-meilleurs-scores-chez-les-jeunes-et-les-ouvriers_4425625_823448.html (sorry it is in french) Yup, really. You might want to compare the election program of the FN with the one of the NPD. They're strikingly similar. Here's the program of the NPD (in German, I don't know if they publish anything in English) The demographics are also very similar. The NPD gets most of their votes from young people and workers (or unemployed workers), too. (Source in German as well: ) Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 06:32 Spaylz wrote:On May 26 2014 06:27 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 06:25 Spaylz wrote: Out of curiosity, what do you teach WhiteDog? Economy and sociology (SES). I might make a fixation on the euro tho, I find it responsible for most of our trouble. A friend of mine shares your opinions, and believes the strong value of the euro is responsible for our lack of progress. Myself, I am not educated enough on the topic to really have an opinion, but it seems that while the EU is a good idea (at least in theory), the euro was sort of rushed and really only profits to Germany. That's quite funny, because France forced it onto Germany in 1989. Yes french politicians are idiots.
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On May 26 2014 06:16 Yuljan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 06:05 SoSexy wrote:On May 26 2014 06:00 Nyxisto wrote:On May 26 2014 05:45 SoSexy wrote: So many haters in this thread. There's a reason parties like FN win, and it is to blame on years of 'politically correct' policies (mainly by the Left) that went WAY too far in the name of multiculturalism. this is exactly the kind of attitude I am talking about, and it will get us in big trouble over the next decades on this continent. No matter how the economy is going to do. How the fuck can you live in the 21st century and claim that multiculturalism is a bad thing. The only reason this forum exists is that people from very different cultures don't give a crap about that and do great stuff together. Multiculturalism PER SE is not a bad thing. It is bad when every critics towards it is rejected in name of the principle itself. The problem of the next century won't be me, it will be radical islam which is already rooted in our societies in the name of mutual respect and comprehension. But don't you dare criticize it, you bigot racist... Same here Multiculturalism isnt too bad, but only if the right cultures are invited. Radical muslims and roma do not fit into our society. We already have hundreds of "german" youths going to fight for islam in Syria. This will only get worse... The right in Germany is ridicilous though, I will probably emigrate myself and leave you to your multicultural (till the muslims make up the majority) paradise. Using the same reasoning, I could say that you don't fit in my society, get out. Also, any kind of categorizing is problematic, as it focuses on a label and not on the people. Add in segregation and integration and meh, it's a fishy soup to try to navigate, so much so that left-wings haven't gotten any farther than adding the ingredients and hoping it doesn't burn when you don't stir it. Somebody needs to find that spoon.
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On May 26 2014 06:33 Duvon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 06:16 Yuljan wrote:On May 26 2014 06:05 SoSexy wrote:On May 26 2014 06:00 Nyxisto wrote:On May 26 2014 05:45 SoSexy wrote: So many haters in this thread. There's a reason parties like FN win, and it is to blame on years of 'politically correct' policies (mainly by the Left) that went WAY too far in the name of multiculturalism. this is exactly the kind of attitude I am talking about, and it will get us in big trouble over the next decades on this continent. No matter how the economy is going to do. How the fuck can you live in the 21st century and claim that multiculturalism is a bad thing. The only reason this forum exists is that people from very different cultures don't give a crap about that and do great stuff together. Multiculturalism PER SE is not a bad thing. It is bad when every critics towards it is rejected in name of the principle itself. The problem of the next century won't be me, it will be radical islam which is already rooted in our societies in the name of mutual respect and comprehension. But don't you dare criticize it, you bigot racist... Same here Multiculturalism isnt too bad, but only if the right cultures are invited. Radical muslims and roma do not fit into our society. We already have hundreds of "german" youths going to fight for islam in Syria. This will only get worse... The right in Germany is ridicilous though, I will probably emigrate myself and leave you to your multicultural (till the muslims make up the majority) paradise. Using the same reasoning, I could say that you don't fit in my society, get out. Also, any kind of categorizing is problematic, as it focuses on a label and not on the people. Add in segregation and integration and meh, it's a fishy soup to try to navigate, so much so that left-wings haven't gotten any farther than adding the ingredients and hoping it doesn't burn when you don't stir it. Somebody needs to find that spoon.
I believe that a french fits in France, an italian in Italy, etc. Bad people will be everywhere and the government has to deal with it, but if in addition to that we start to take in people who are against women's right, against homosexuals, who endorse genital mutilation, then they don't fit.
If I come to Sweden to teach at university, pay my rent, taxes, services etc would you accept me? If I come to Sweden and have free money from the government, have my wife go around in a burqa, would you accept me?
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So um regarding France results I will have my take on why Le Pen got so many votes; the importance of each point for the voting in order:
-First it's a vote against Europe current functioning, it helped us alot and is the main reason for us being the 5th economy in the world but nowadays its functioning is extremely complicated for the majority of French (they don't know how it works and why some decisions are taken) and it is ruled by monetarists (and that factorizes mainly Germany) and many believe, me included, that a change needs to happen in the EU.
-Second it's a vote against the right and the left, they have failed to make major structural reforms needed for France and it has been like that since Chirac. The structural reforms could have been more right or left (regarding the public service, work flexibility, minimal wedge, retirement, subsidies etc...) , it doesn't rly matter, both could be viable in the long term but nothing is done because both the right and left are just running for office first and always resort to populism (just like extremes); so a huge disappointment in the major parties even if ironically people voted because they believed in the short term populism crap while now they are complaining because the situation is stagnating in the long term
-Third it's a vote against immigration, which is accused of everything while there are contradicting studies on the subject, some saying it's costly other saying it's profitable. The thing we know for sure is that it makes France the second most dynamic country in Europe regarding demography, and that is good when we see that most countries in the EU are losing people every year.
Now I've got to talk about the people who actually voted for them while they voted for other parties before. They are mainly right voters that were disappointed with the current UMP but that also have a negative view of Europe and immigrants, this is pretty logical, BUT there are also alot of people that voted for the far left parties that now vote for them. And like it has been told by others, the far right and far left have alot in common now in France, the major difference is the take on immigration and social concepts (like marriage, drug usage etc...). Seeing how the crisis struck, immigrants are even more badly viewed so people change completely of political ideology even if they think they don't. With that you have to know that the majority of voters are disappointed in politics and didn't vote.
PS: personally I voted blank because I didn't like any of the programs (I would have voted center if not for their opinion on the Transatlantic treaty).
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Ahm I thought we're debating the European Elections here, not ideology? Preliminary results here:
211 Seats EPP (conservatives), 193 S&D (social democrats), 74 ALDE (liberal), 58 Greens/EFA (greens), 47 GUE/NGL (lefts), 39 ECR (right-wing), 33 EFD (more right-wing), 56 Others
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On May 26 2014 06:40 Anvil666 wrote: Ahm I thought we're debating the European Elections here, not ideology? Preliminary results here:
211 Seats EPP (conservatives), 193 S&D (social democrats), 74 ALDE (liberal), 58 Greens/EFA (greens), 47 GUE/NGL (lefts), 39 ECR (right-wing), 33 EFD (more right-wing), 56 Others
The two are closely entwined, my friend.
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On May 26 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 06:29 Douillos wrote:On May 26 2014 06:23 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 06:18 ACrow wrote:On May 26 2014 06:05 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 06:04 Douillos wrote:On May 26 2014 06:03 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 06:01 Douillos wrote:On May 26 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote:On May 26 2014 05:27 GL999et1000 wrote: The word "smart" does not have the same meaning for you and me that is all. The day I will find that run away from problems is smart is not arrived. Ok I will elaborate a little. The FN is a nationalist party at core. During Le Pen's era, that nationalism was also backed up by some kind of racism and xenophobia and they were, with that, for economic liberalism (Le Pen wanted to be the french Reagan). But, with Marine Le Pen's (the daughter), the FN "smartly" took most of the critics coming from the non institutionalised far left and made it their own. They took Sapir's and Lordon's critics toward the europe (far left economists) to a point were those economists had to defend themselves from being from the FN ! In the same vein, they actually defend France's social security, they defend the retirement at 60, they push for an increase in the minimum wage, they repeat non stop that they are "against liberalism and globalization". They put themselves as the only opposition to what is judged (rightfully I might say) to be the core reason of our social problems. On May 26 2014 05:30 Douillos wrote: [quote]
I don't really get what you are trying to say. "If the state say a specific branch is competitive, then it is, that's protectionism."
You are right to say that Europe has not delivered, but losing hope is definitly not the way to go... Because anything else is even less of a good idea!
Competitivity is a microeconomic term (at the level of firms). From a macroeconomic perspective, you can change the competitivity of a nation in a few seconds (with the exchange rate of your money or with law). China and Germany are competitive because they have underevaluated currency, we are not because we have an over evaluated currency and because we have a social security that push our labor cost high. Basically, the state have the tools to make an entire nation competitive, because it is the state that makes the rules that permit the exchange. Protectionism is one of those tools (how do you think EDF is now one of the biggest energy firm in the world ? because we protected it during the firty glorious). Wow, so you really think the reason France could "easily" become competitive again, by devaluating the currency? And then how would you import the materials needed to assemble? Yes easily, the problem is the price in terms of purchasing power and living condition for the french. Purchasing anything else than French made products would be a problem. Yes. But that's not a bad thing for unemployment tho, it would force our internal production to propose substitutions. That's working really well for North Korea. .. Not. With our modern level of globalization, there are no such easy solutions as just devaluing your currency and try to go autarkic to make everything magically alright. That's way too simplistic an approach. North Korea ? What are you talking about ? That's not a simplistic approach, that's basic economy since the XVIIIth century. It's like when I talk about inflation and people respond that the weimar hyperinflation was bad... There is a difference in scale in here. Protectionism is used by ALL countries in the world, through laws and various negotiations at different level. The Europe is one of the least protective place on earth (even our tariff is lower than most, at 1.6ish % if I recall, and we use protective less laws than others). The United State, intelligently, protect some specific branch of their economy to permit them from taking off. I'm am not talking about secluding ourself from others, just intelligent localized protectionism, like Friedrich List or Stuart Mill theorized. One day, Germany will wake up and understand that its dogmatism will cause its downfall (I give them 5 to 10 years). I don't care, if they don't bring us with them. Only powerful countries can negotiate properly. The EU could negotiate on equal grounds. European countries individually would get laughed at when they would try to set their terms. And that last sentence of yours... Man you FN boys & girls know how to make fools of yourselves. I'm not FN, but I don't really care. France is the fifth economic power and you think we have no bargaining power... I'll let Krugman respond to the rest : Show nested quote +Most discussion about the possibility of secular stagnation has focused on US data, partly because most of the new secular stagnationists are American, partly because the data are easier to work with. But as Izabella Kaminska and James Mackintosh point out, the euro area seems closer to Japanification than the US. So are there structural changes in Europe that arguably will lead to persistently lower demand unless offset by policy? Indeed there are. Start with demography: a falling rate of growth in the working-age population leads, other things equal, to lower investment as a share of GDP, because there is less need to equip workers with new factories, office buildings, houses, etc. And if we look at working-age population for the US, the euro area (EA), and Japan we see that Europe is now where Japan was around 1998, when I and other Japan worriers started talking in earnest about liquidity traps: Add to this the end of ever-increasing leverage. In the US we focus on how ever-growing household debt was a major source of demand before 2008, which won’t come back; in Europe much the same was going on, but it also makes sense to focus on a different measure, large capital flows to peripheral countries, which won’t come back even if the woes of austerity abate. And these flows were a big part of overall European demand before the crisis: So with a shrinking working-age population and without the boost to demand caused by the capital-flow bubble, Europe is extremely likely to have a significantly lower natural real rate of interest heading forward than it had in the past. This in turn suggests that it’s a really really bad idea to let inflation drift down, whether or not it turns into outright deflation.
That was like what, 10 years ago? In any case, Imagine how better France (and other european countries) are off when they work together. It's inevitable, sooner or later Europe will be a federal institution and we will gain a lot from that. Of course the transition that started over 50 years ago is hard and the 2008 crisis hit Europe more than other places, but it's worth it.
As an immigrant in France (I'm Irish Canadian, arrived here at 5 years old), a person who really is fond of the French culture and way of life, I just can't understand what the fuck is going on in this country... And When I meet French expats through my job (I travel all around Europe on a weekly basis), they feel the same way...
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Sweden: Feminist in and greens having an earthquake election, pirates out. Finland: Enter left wing and increase for true finns.
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On May 26 2014 06:41 SoSexy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2014 06:40 Anvil666 wrote: Ahm I thought we're debating the European Elections here, not ideology? Preliminary results here:
211 Seats EPP (conservatives), 193 S&D (social democrats), 74 ALDE (liberal), 58 Greens/EFA (greens), 47 GUE/NGL (lefts), 39 ECR (right-wing), 33 EFD (more right-wing), 56 Others
The two are closely entwined, my friend. Yeah but he is right. The results of some neonazis like le pen hardly matter for the EU. That's basically a national protest, but those parties are actually quite tiny in sum and dont even add together as they have a hard time to even form a common european faction.
What actually matters is that Juncker has 211 seats behind him and but only 18more than Schulz and that they now have to form coalitions.
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On May 26 2014 06:46 radiatoren wrote: Sweden: Feminist in and greens having an earthquake election, pirates out. Finland: Enter left wing and increase for true finns.
Thanks for the update!
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