Agree with a video review even though it's not full and beginning was cut but the middle part and ending is enough to determine that there was no physical resistance from Eric Garner who actually was the one reasoning police and those 'I can't breathe! I can't breath!' when white cop chokes him makes me sick. Those 'humans' are worse than animals. No matter what he did - choking is illegal when there is no physical resistance.
Staten Island Resident Eric Garner Dies after Chokehold fr…
Forum Index > General Forum |
Hazzyboy
Estonia555 Posts
Agree with a video review even though it's not full and beginning was cut but the middle part and ending is enough to determine that there was no physical resistance from Eric Garner who actually was the one reasoning police and those 'I can't breathe! I can't breath!' when white cop chokes him makes me sick. Those 'humans' are worse than animals. No matter what he did - choking is illegal when there is no physical resistance. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States21792 Posts
Eric Garner, a New York man allegedly selling illegal “loosies” – single cigarettes – outside a Staten Island store, died Thursday after police used an unauthorized street fighting move known as a “chokehold” to subdue the 350-pound man. The stark contrast between a minor street crime – one which Mr. Garner had been arrested for many times – and the tragic consequence of leaving a widow with six kids has forced New Yorkers to revisit some of the darker chapters for the city’s elite but oft-chastised police force, and to rehash what many thought were long-settled issues. According to Police commissioner William Bratton, chokeholds used by at least two police officers to subdue Garner came after the man pleaded with a gaggle of officers to leave him alone as he was “minding his own business.” “Every time you see me, you want to mess with me,” Garner can be heard saying. “I'm tired of it. It stops today. I'm minding my business please just leave me alone." The encounter escalated to the point of a faceoff, whereupon one officer wraps his arm around his neck even as Garner, now on the ground, pleads that he can’t breathe. A few minutes later Garner loses consciousness as the officer mashed his face into the sidewalk – the victim of a fatal heart attack. A bigger question remained: Why did two veteran officers feel free to employ a tactic banned in 1993, especially given that a civil conversation may have deescalated the ordeal. In 1994, a year after the city banned the tactic altogether, NYPD Officer Francis Livoti killed Bronx resident Anthony Baez with a chokehold after Mr. Livoti’s cruiser was hit by a football being thrown around by friends. Livoti was found not guilty of negligent homicide, but later served seven years in prison after a federal court found he violated Baez’ civil rights. "Chokeholds are prohibited by the New York City Police Department and most departments," Commissioner Bratton said at a news conference Friday. The New York Police Department and mayors have fought for controversial tactics that focus on low-level crimes, arguing tactics like the controversial “stop-and-frisks” are not only constitutional but effective in curbing local crime rates. Some courts have disagreed with at least the first notion, forcing the city to largely abandon the policy. Source | ||
GreenHorizons
United States21792 Posts
| ||
Terranist
United States2496 Posts
| ||
fmod
Cayman Islands330 Posts
| ||
TheRealArtemis
687 Posts
On July 21 2014 06:56 fmod wrote: Not the first time I heard abuse from USA police officers... Seems like there is something deeply wrong with the law enforcement system in USA. It's just totally unnecessary to use this amount of violence. I dont think its something to do with the law enforcement system. I personally think its because its a country where there is a war on drugs and violent gangs have been popping up everywhere in the last MANY years. But then again, I honestly believe only a cop could truely answer whats wrong. They are the ones in the shadow of bad cops and the ones that get patrol the sewer everyday. | ||
Deleted User 135096
3624 Posts
| ||
HeatEXTEND
Netherlands836 Posts
On July 21 2014 06:52 Terranist wrote: what do you want us to talk about? it is a tragedy but there isn't much to say other than it sucks that this happens once in a while. The more people that hear about this shit the better imo. Absolutely disgusting. | ||
Piste
6137 Posts
| ||
Evil_Monkey_
Denmark296 Posts
| ||
Ettick
United States2434 Posts
| ||
heliusx
United States2306 Posts
Didn't look like he intended to kill or maim the guy but he broke the rules and it cost the man his life so he should be held accountable. Of course I highly doubt justice will be served. | ||
iFU.pauline
France1389 Posts
| ||
Gorsameth
Netherlands20759 Posts
On July 21 2014 08:51 Ettick wrote: Cops need to be less rough when dealing with unarmed people in general. Stuff like this wouldn't happen if all cops treated "civilians" like actual people. Being a cop is a dangerous thing, I have little problem with police being rough on civilians who use physical force. HOWEVER on no circumstance is choking a man acceptable regardless of his actions. The officer should be prosecuted under the full extent of the law, tobad America has a bad history of punishing cops if they cross the line. | ||
Epishade
United States2267 Posts
| ||
Livelovedie
United States492 Posts
| ||
DannyJ
United States5110 Posts
On July 21 2014 12:54 Livelovedie wrote: Doesn't the police force in theory have to attract this type of person? This is definitely terrible, but is it even possible to have a person who shows restraint be a cop? I'd assume some of the 800,000ish police who don't make headlines are able to show restraint. | ||
Shiragaku
Hong Kong4308 Posts
On July 21 2014 13:11 DannyJ wrote: I'd assume some of the 800,000ish police who don't make headlines are able to show restraint. I dunno, I would normally say it's just a few bad apples giving the rest of the good guys a bad name, but these stories are unbelievably common. What is notable is that this is one of many cases that has caught national attention. Shit like this happens almost on a daily basis. | ||
hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On July 21 2014 13:11 DannyJ wrote: I'd assume some of the 800,000ish police who don't make headlines are able to show restraint. They need to do more than that. They should get rid of their "colleagues" who are prone to use excess force before something like this happens. I doubt this was the first time these thugs used excessive force but they either weren't reported or the reports weren't handled properly. It's not a few bad apples, it's an institutional problem. | ||
Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On July 21 2014 13:38 hypercube wrote: They need to do more than that. They should get rid of their "colleagues" who are prone to use excess force before something like this happens. I doubt this was the first time these thugs used excessive force but they either weren't reported or the reports weren't handled properly. It's not a few bad apples, it's an institutional problem. Here is the one area where introducing cameras onto police officers -- maybe put them in their badges or make them wear those goofy google glasses -- would be a tremendous benefit. IIRC, there was a study that shows instances of both police brutality reports and police brutality outcomes drop significantly when the cop and the person he is interacting with both know there is a police tape of their interaction. | ||
Kenthros
United States95 Posts
| ||
OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
On July 21 2014 13:48 Sub40APM wrote: Here is the one area where introducing cameras onto police officers -- maybe put them in their badges or make them wear those goofy google glasses -- would be a tremendous benefit. IIRC, there was a study that shows instances of both police brutality reports and police brutality outcomes drop significantly when the cop and the person he is interacting with both know there is a police tape of their interaction. While sticking a camera on every cop is better than absolutely nothing these cops (and others before him) did what he did with a camera right in his face. You have cops that will take phones and cameras away from people recording them to destroy the evidence, and I'm sure even if you did cam up every cop there would be an alarming number of instances of said camera miraculously "malfunctioning" somehow when an event comes up. This is a issue that needs to be seriously looked at in this country. We're militarizing our police all across the country, we're using SWAT teams for trivial shit on a daily basis. Cops are meant to protect and serve the citizens, it can be a difficult job but its the job they signed up for and they need to be held to a much higher standard than civilians with the power they wield. This shit happens way more often than it should and good cops should be throwing the bad ones under the bus or they're really no better. | ||
Roe
Canada6002 Posts
| ||
ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
| ||
ahswtini
Northern Ireland22201 Posts
On July 21 2014 08:51 Ettick wrote: Cops need to be less rough when dealing with unarmed people in general. Stuff like this wouldn't happen if all cops treated "civilians" like actual people. Sometimes it's hard to ascertain if someone is truly unarmed. Not saying this justifies the excessive use of force in this case.. | ||
Duvon
Sweden2360 Posts
On July 21 2014 22:16 ThomasjServo wrote: Go into any bodega in NYC and you can buy loosies, what happens when cigarettes go up $14.50 a pack. NYC police department is one of the most militant in the country, if you're really going to go after a guy selling cigarettes a for a buck a piece. Write a citation and move along. What's even the purpose of having a ban on selling singles? That there's no warning text? | ||
brian
United States9531 Posts
selling cigarettes without a license is also illegal. | ||
ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On July 21 2014 22:52 Duvon wrote: What's even the purpose of having a ban on selling singles? That there's no warning text? Not sure, the price is only that high because of taxes, and NYC would be pissed it isn't getting its cut I guess? There is also the issue of potential "unlicensed" vendors, if it is a bodega selling them, you would imagine they could sell cigarettes by the pack and what have you, dude standing on the corner, not so much. | ||
MoonfireSpam
United Kingdom1153 Posts
On July 21 2014 13:11 DannyJ wrote: I'd assume some of the 800,000ish police who don't make headlines are able to show restraint. They also look away when one of their own does shit like this, that his squadmates did fuck all to stop it well...... (or are just not supid enough to abuse people in daylight, while being filmed). | ||
TheRealArtemis
687 Posts
On July 21 2014 23:19 MoonfireSpam wrote: They also look away when one of their own does shit like this, that his squadmates did fuck all to stop it well...... (or are just not supid enough to abuse people in daylight, while being filmed). Calling out your own people is pretty much Career suicide. | ||
Ghostcom
Denmark4776 Posts
On July 22 2014 06:33 TheRealArtemis wrote: Calling out your own people is pretty much Career suicide. I think that really just speaks more of a rotten environment than anything else - especially considering how other professions manages to do this without the whistleblowers suffering repercussions. | ||
Kenthros
United States95 Posts
| ||
Ghostcom
Denmark4776 Posts
EDIT: It actually really doesn't matter if any professions in which it is acceptable exists though - shouldn't we as a society demand such acceptance from all professions? And doesn't a lack of such acceptance describe a rotten environment? | ||
Brutaxilos
United States2572 Posts
Cops should really have much harsher punishments than normal civilians not less harsh. | ||
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41095 Posts
| ||
nam nam
Sweden4672 Posts
On July 22 2014 07:08 Ghostcom wrote: It might depend on country, but I have found that lawyers and doctors seem to be pretty good at it. EDIT: It actually really doesn't matter if any professions in which it is acceptable exists though - shouldn't we as a society demand such acceptance from all professions? And doesn't a lack of such acceptance describe a rotten environment? There's plenty of examples of medical professionals making errors and getting no punishment for it as well as more systematic flaws of not believing people/mistreating them for long periods of time. | ||
sCCrooked
Korea (South)1306 Posts
On July 22 2014 06:33 TheRealArtemis wrote: Calling out your own people is pretty much Career suicide. So wait, we've been at the point where you can't even speak out against other police or those involved in any way with the official law enforcement branches without risking everything and nobody is doing anything to change this? That's a terrible standard and moral to be teaching people. Personal and Corporate accountability must be upheld or else morally, we are not a decent species. | ||
Ghostcom
Denmark4776 Posts
On July 22 2014 07:37 nam nam wrote: There's plenty of examples of medical professionals making errors and getting no punishment for it as well as more systematic flaws of not believing people/mistreating them for long periods of time. We are going to get lost in specific cases if we are to follow this argument to the end and it would have little purpose as the original point was that it should always be acceptable to reveal mistreatment. However I will say that there is a rather big difference between a human error, gross negligence, and manslaughter. With regards to the medical professionals there is in most countries a professional, independent board who figures out where on said spectrum a case falls, and as an M.D. I will say that a lot of the errors medical professionals are making belong to the more innocent part of the spectrum. | ||
m4ini
4215 Posts
On July 21 2014 22:25 ahswtini wrote: Sometimes it's hard to ascertain if someone is truly unarmed. Not saying this justifies the excessive use of force in this case.. It wasn't excessive force. Excessive force were if they beat him with their sticks. They used a move which didn't kill for the first time, and was banned because of that. They're grossly and willingly neglecting any consequences that might arise out of their action. I'm curious how this ends, if the US police pulls a "deskduty, but totally not guilty" again. | ||
OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
The police shouldn't be the mafia where rats get whacked, that only goes to prove the system is cancerous and is legitimately flawed to its core. It's only going to get worse unless something fundamentally changes and it's only going to breed more mistrust. | ||
radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
On July 22 2014 08:22 OuchyDathurts wrote: The thing is if the shoe was on the other foot law enforcement would go out of their way to deal with it. They will try to throw all manner of charges from accessory, obstruction, conspiracy, etc to get people to talk but when it's one of their own mum is the word. People say "most cops are good" but you can't be a good cop and cover up for your coworker who has broken the law, you can't hide behind the shield and be a good human being let alone a respectable police officer. If you're a good person who is sworn to protect and serve their community and citizens you MUST be willing to stick your neck out to make sure there aren't monsters within your ranks. If you don't do so you're just helping to propagate the fear and hatred some have of the police and showing those people that their fears and hatred are deserved. The police shouldn't be the mafia where rats get whacked, that only goes to prove the system is cancerous and is legitimately flawed to its core. It's only going to get worse unless something fundamentally changes and it's only going to breed more mistrust. The sad part of all this is that even if there were honest people in the police force willing to protect the innocent and stop their fellow officers from doing harm, they would be up against the majority, and would probably be quickly silenced and/or fired. I mean look what happens to officers that are caught on public cameras, facing the ire of the entire general public after their crime is shown on live television. Even with all of that attention, they get reassigned or demoted...that's about it. If that's what happens when there is maximum publicity and attention, I think you can't expect a whole lot when one (or a few) police officers speak out. Combine that with the fact that these people would be risking getting fired, its probably really hard to raise the will to fight. We live in a capitalistic system, people need money to support themselves and their families. Why risk all of that, for such a small chance of change? Finally the other sad part is that, this video will be temporarily enraging, but it will also be forgotten about a week from now by most people. There is almost zero will in the general public to enact any change, except in the form of minor protests; the only exception was Occupy Wall Street, but that took a major financial crisis, and even then they had no clear direction or desire. It seems like society is so powerless to accomplish anything, people generally are not interested enough and have their own affairs to consider, nor would they know what action to take except to trust the people in power who obviously seem to have no problems with how things are. I don't know, I guess you have to hope that people will eventually have enough of it all | ||
Nore
New Zealand128 Posts
Person preform repeatable offense Cop tries to teach him a lesson Kills by accident Pretty sure not everyone knows or always remembers all the police banned rules. Things i hate about these stories is when family is put in to inflict pity for the victim before trial of the accused. | ||
Gorsameth
Netherlands20759 Posts
On July 22 2014 09:35 Nore wrote: Seems like: Person preform repeatable offense Cop tries to teach him a lesson Kills by accident Pretty sure not everyone knows or always remembers all the police banned rules. Things i hate about these stories is when family is put in to inflict pity for the victim before trial of the accused. "Oops I forgot i should not choke people to deaths, woopsie." Have you read what you just typed? my god this isn't filling out a form wrong or using a pencil instead of a pen. He choked a man to death ffs. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States21792 Posts
On July 22 2014 09:33 radscorpion9 wrote: The sad part of all this is that even if there were honest people in the police force willing to protect the innocent and stop their fellow officers from doing harm, they would be up against the majority, and would probably be quickly silenced and/or fired. I mean look what happens to officers that are caught on public cameras, facing the ire of the entire general public after their crime is shown on live television. Even with all of that attention, they get reassigned or demoted...that's about it. If that's what happens when there is maximum publicity and attention, I think you can't expect a whole lot when one (or a few) police officers speak out. Combine that with the fact that these people would be risking being fired, its probably really hard to do raise the will to fight. We live in a capitalistic system, people need money to support themselves and their families. Why risk all of that, for such a small chance of change? Finally the other sad part is that, this video will be temporarily enraging, but it will also be forgotten about a week from now by most people. There is almost zero will in the general public to enact any change, except in the form of minor protests; the only exception one was Occupy Wall Street, but that took a major financial crisis, and even then they had no clear direction or desire. It seems like society is so powerless to accomplish anything, people generally are not interested enough and have their own affairs to consider, nor would they know what action to take except to trust the people in power who obviously seem to have no problems with how things are. I don't know, I guess you have to hope that people will eventually have enough of it all We have to keep in mind they caught this on camera... This is a daily occurrence (minus the death). The only reason this is getting attention is because it was caught on camera (the camera wasn't illegally confiscated and destroyed on threat they would do the same to the cameraman) and the victim died. Otherwise this would just be another typical allegation from another typical criminal. The cops need to have cameras on them and a group of professional citizens representative of the community being policed needs to be the one assessing the videos and determining whether they want to press charges. These internal investigations are shams and almost always end in no real punishment unless the victim can win a federal case. | ||
Nore
New Zealand128 Posts
| ||
Gorsameth
Netherlands20759 Posts
On July 22 2014 09:51 Nore wrote: His intent wasnt to kill. If it was then i am in the wrong but i highly doubt it. I'm sorry its totally fine for a cop to accidentally choke a man to death ofc. How silly of me... | ||
WombaT
Northern Ireland20731 Posts
| ||
m4ini
4215 Posts
On July 22 2014 09:51 Nore wrote: His intent wasnt to kill. If it was then i am in the wrong but i highly doubt it. Wow. Obviously his intent wasn't to kill, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to gather that. How does that change anything? What are you trying to say? Pretty sure not everyone knows or always remembers all the police banned rules. This is as dumb. Cops are supposed to have training, schooling and qualifications. Wanna bet they knew? In fact, it's written in their patrol guide (just read it so i can be smartassy about it). Not to worry though, police is already trying to bullshit their way out. The NYPD said Garner "took a fighting stance" and "absolutely resisted arrest." Yeah, right. They know there's that video, that shows the big guy lifting his hands in a helpless gesture while begging "please, please don't touch me", until he get's cut off by an arm around his throat? Fighting stance my ass. If that's a fighting stance, mother theresa was a kickboxer. | ||
Kenthros
United States95 Posts
| ||
docvoc
United States5491 Posts
| ||
GreenHorizons
United States21792 Posts
You can watch as about a dozen officers and EMT's stand around and watch him die in this video... The whole thing is just disgusting. The guy who started the whole thing by choking him was even brazen enough to wave at the camera. If that asshole doesn't go to prison I can't imagine what will happen. Imagine being a small child watching that happen. You just watched the police murder a man who by all appearances wasn't doing anything that warranted any physical action and then you find out the murderers who just watched him die without even attempting to save him (but making sure no one else could get close enough to) will probably go free. How safe would you feel walking down that street? Oh by the way the people who just murdered your neighbor are the ones who are in charge of 'protecting you'..... | ||
Hazzyboy
Estonia555 Posts
I have seen a taxi driver hitting a homeless in the city and after no one really cared to touch him but a couple Denmark military soldiers were passing by and they instantly started to give the man first aid, getting his blood on their hands and faces and thanks to them the homeless man started breathing again and got taken away to hospital. If you know how to provide first aid - you are obligated to do it and I can understand people who don't know because they can harm more than do good. | ||
m4ini
4215 Posts
If you know how to provide first aid - you are obligated to do it and I can understand people who don't know because they can harm more than do good. In germany you're required to give first aid by law, goes for every person. Although, first aid can also mean calling the police/ambulance (not everybody is trained in first aid). Even if you made it worse in the end (wrong help, as in putting somebody on his back, knees up, while he's choking on his tongue/vomit). In this case, cops do have first aid training, and for not helping him alone they can be hold accountable on criminal charges and civil lawsuits. In germany at least, don't know the rules in the US regarding that. | ||
Hazzyboy
Estonia555 Posts
| ||
-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
| ||
nkr
Sweden5451 Posts
| ||
Sassback
United States718 Posts
On July 21 2014 13:48 Sub40APM wrote: Here is the one area where introducing cameras onto police officers -- maybe put them in their badges or make them wear those goofy google glasses -- would be a tremendous benefit. IIRC, there was a study that shows instances of both police brutality reports and police brutality outcomes drop significantly when the cop and the person he is interacting with both know there is a police tape of their interaction. Police officers where i'm from,(Albuquerque, NM) already have lapel cameras to video tape there interactions with civilians. What happens most of the time anything violent happens (i.e. police killing a civilian) they just lose the video tape, or turn off there lapel camera before preforming the illegal actions. | ||
zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On July 22 2014 17:02 -Archangel- wrote: In my country there is a saying: Cops are criminals at heart whose life took a slightly different path. From what I've heard it's the same here; or rather, it's been documented that there are neighborhoods where most people there become either cops or crooks; and a lot of the cops tend to come from those neighborhoods as well. So I hear at least, I haven't looked closely at sources. | ||
Crushinator
Netherlands2138 Posts
| ||
Sassback
United States718 Posts
On July 22 2014 07:37 nam nam wrote: There's plenty of examples of medical professionals making errors and getting no punishment for it as well as more systematic flaws of not believing people/mistreating them for long periods of time. I don't really know how you can compare misdiagnosing a patient and choking someone until they die. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that even if a physician doesn't correctly identify an ailment, that the prescribed cure isn't going to be a choke-hold. | ||
ahswtini
Northern Ireland22201 Posts
This article which trawled through some law enforcement message boards (some of which require police ID to register on), shows a pretty chilling attitude towards this from the law enforcement world. | ||
Doraemon
Australia14949 Posts
On July 22 2014 18:59 ahswtini wrote: http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/cops-react-to-the-death-of-eric-garner.html This article which trawled through some law enforcement message boards (some of which require police ID to register on), shows a pretty chilling attitude towards this from the law enforcement world. oh man...some of those comments...:S:S | ||
Ghostcom
Denmark4776 Posts
| ||
Skilledblob
Germany3392 Posts
| ||
Trustworthy-Tony
Tanzania187 Posts
| ||
Grovbolle
Denmark3803 Posts
| ||
Gorsameth
Netherlands20759 Posts
On July 22 2014 20:37 Grovbolle wrote: Wasn't he resisting arrest? Or was I just missing something from the video? Resisting arrest allows them to pin you down, not choke you and must certainly not choke you to death. | ||
Hagen0
Germany765 Posts
On July 22 2014 19:48 Skilledblob wrote: wow some of those comments are just disgusting. there wasnt even a need to cuff the guy. shit like this makes me appreciate our police -_- Cases excessive of police violence come up in Germany pretty regularly. And the usual reactions to them are the same as well. Police close their ranks against the outside and the perpetrators are shielded from accountability by judges and the justice system in general. | ||
Socup
190 Posts
The people with the most power are the ones who should be trusted the least, and police using 8+ guys to tackle and kill some homeless person, some black person, or some other person who was "resisting arrest" somehow with that many people on them, this isn't new. This is so common in the U.S. and because nothing is done about it, the public outcry dies after a week, then they continue doing it, and I think even encourages more of it because others see that nothing bad happens so they can get away with it. On July 22 2014 23:03 Hagen0 wrote: Cases excessive of police violence come up in Germany pretty regularly. And the usual reactions to them are the same as well. Police close their ranks against the outside and the perpetrators are shielded from accountability by judges and the justice system in general. Almost like it's a gang or a mafia, instead of a system of justice and accountability. But noone's going to protest, noone cares enough. People clearly don't mind at the end of the day, that's the message I see when this stuff does not turn into protests or flat out riots. On July 22 2014 07:21 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Think of Cops as psychopaths but don't treat them as sub-human. There really is no difference. We treat rapists and murderers as sub-human. Psychopaths and sociopaths are the type of people who do that stuff. Why treat them differently because they have finagled a badge? | ||
[BSP]Kain
119 Posts
| ||
GreenHorizons
United States21792 Posts
On July 23 2014 02:04 Socup wrote: We know aggressive sociopaths choose to wear badges to have "authority". I've never trusted any authority figure unless they earn it. Just because you can get a state sanction to screw with people or even kill them doesn't make you my authority. The people with the most power are the ones who should be trusted the least, and police using 8+ guys to tackle and kill some homeless person, some black person, or some other person who was "resisting arrest" somehow with that many people on them, this isn't new. This is so common in the U.S. and because nothing is done about it, the public outcry dies after a week, then they continue doing it, and I think even encourages more of it because others see that nothing bad happens so they can get away with it. Almost like it's a gang or a mafia, instead of a system of justice and accountability. But noone's going to protest, noone cares enough. People clearly don't mind at the end of the day, that's the message I see when this stuff does not turn into protests or flat out riots. There really is no difference. We treat rapists and murderers as sub-human. Psychopaths and sociopaths are the type of people who do that stuff. Why treat them differently because they have finagled a badge? The reason is similar to why we don't care that 1 out of 25 prisoners is raped in prison. If one out of every 2 dozen donuts we bought had been raped we would be livid and prisoners are people not pastries. (paraphrased from Jon Oliver) People who know someone or can imagine themselves being in similar situations get pretty upset, but those who don't think that could ever be them simply don't. Seeing as how about 8/10 of these are black people and black people only make up about 1/10 of the population it's kind of obvious why nothing ever gets done. "It's not MY problem" | ||
Hagen0
Germany765 Posts
Say if you are a police officer and some protester made an allegation that he was badly beat up by a colleague of yours. You'd almost certainly intitially disbelieve it or be highly sceptical. Don't claim otherwise. That's just how human beings work. Even if there were solid evidence you'd have psychological incentives to marginalise the occurence to yourself and before others. You'd also not want see the life of your colleague or friend destroyed (He'd lose his job at a minimum.) so you might downplay the event in court hearings, lie about it or even destroy evidence. There all kinds of way to rationalize this: "People were throwing stones at him just prior to the event. He was afraid and snapped. No need to to destroy his life over a one-time mistake." and so forth. You may not even be aware that you lying about the event. Our attitudes and presuppositions change the way we perceive and remember events. That is one reason witness accounts are notoriously unreliable. | ||
brian
United States9531 Posts
| ||
Gorsameth
Netherlands20759 Posts
On July 23 2014 04:03 Hagen0 wrote: Demonizing policemen is unfair and it gets you nowhere since you are not addressing the issues. It's a completely typical human reaction to value the statements of your colleagues and friends higher than that of outsiders. Organizations like a police force develop a kind of group think on top of that. Say if you are a police officer and some protester made an allegation that he was badly beat up by a colleague of yours. You'd almost certainly intitially disbelieve it or be highly sceptical. Don't claim otherwise. That's just how human beings work. Even if there were solid evidence you'd have psychological incentives to marginalise the occurence to yourself and before others. You'd also not want see the life of your colleague or friend destroyed (He'd lose his job at a minimum.) so you might downplay the event in court hearings, lie about it or even destroy evidence. There all kinds of way to rationalize this: "People were throwing stones at him just prior to the event. He was afraid and snapped. No need to to destroy his life over a one-time mistake." and so forth. You may not even be aware that you lying about the event. Our attitudes and presuppositions change the way we perceive and remember events. That is one reason witness accounts are notoriously unreliable. The police are a very public function that is held in high regards. I understand your point but the reality is that if your colleague snapped he wasn't fit for service in the police. They are held in to such high standard precisely because they are around to protect the general public and we have to be able to trust them to do so under pretty much any circumstance. | ||
Crushinator
Netherlands2138 Posts
| ||
Hagen0
Germany765 Posts
The key to the issue is not even to prosecute the offenders (although this has to be done) but to put procedures and safeguards into place to minimize and avoid police brutality. Having said that the culture and political climate in the US makes this particularly difficult. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States21792 Posts
On July 23 2014 04:51 Hagen0 wrote: I'm not defending this group think behaviour described above. Neither is the incident in the OP in any way acceptable. I just tried to explain why police violence is a given basically everywhere and why it is so often hushed over. In the posts prior to mine people were writing thinks like "psychopaths" and "sub-human" that are inhuman and unhelpful in understanding the issue. Police work is a genuinely shitty job, dangerous, stressful and badly paid. The key to the issue is not even to prosecute the offenders (although this has to be done) but to put procedures and safeguards into place to minimize and avoid police brutality. Having said that the culture and political climate in the US makes this particularly difficult. Like what? The guy who started choking him waved and smiled at the camera while he was dying? Obviously this isn't a procedure thing it's a much larger feeling of impunity. The 'no need to ruin his life for a one-time mistake' generalized justification is particularly infuriating because that is precisely what the police do every day to people. Tons of crimes go unsolved because they have no detectives and hundreds of ticket writers, and drug law heroes who eventually get tired of just writing tickets, violating 4th amendment rights and sending people through the justice system for minor possession charges then randomly beat the shit out of some unsuspecting person for no real reason. | ||
Hagen0
Germany765 Posts
I will stand by this: Even though the acts in the OP and the one you referenced are reprehensible demonising the indivual policemen who perpetrated them will get you nowhere. Of course they need to stand trial for their actions but more importantly these incidents are symptoms of much deeper issues. These issues need to be addressed. (Before you reply that you were demonising on one the people I answered did, hence my initial post.) | ||
GreenHorizons
United States21792 Posts
On July 23 2014 05:09 Hagen0 wrote: Look, you don't have to convince me. I believe that the US police is at least in part an instrument of repression. I was just trying to add to the conversation. I will stand by this: Even though the acts in the OP and the one you referenced are reprehensible demonising the indivual policemen who perpetrated them will get you nowhere. Of course they need to stand trial for their actions but more importantly these incidents are symptoms of much deeper issues. These issues need to be addressed. (Before you reply that you were demonising on one the people I answered did, hence my initial post.) I get your point, it's just that police are in a unique position, having corrupt police is like having non-patriotic military members. We have to hold the people in those positions to standards higher than our general population due to the nature of their profession. I suppose if you say the same about generic criminals than I can see your point more clearly but if you are suggesting that police be extended some expanded form of compassion (I would argue they need a more stringent level of expectation) I would have to strongly disagree. So if you are against demonizing all criminals (gets tougher when you are dealing with pedo's) I get it, a more compassionate view than most, but I appreciate the perspective. However, if you are suggesting officers these in particular, deserve a more empathetic treatment than anyone else I would disagree. | ||
Lucumo
6850 Posts
On July 23 2014 04:51 Hagen0 wrote: I'm not defending this group think behaviour described above. Neither is the incident in the OP in any way acceptable. I just tried to explain why police violence is a given basically everywhere and why it is so often hushed over. In the posts prior to mine people were writing thinks like "psychopaths" and "sub-human" that are inhuman and unhelpful in understanding the issue. Police work is a genuinely shitty job, dangerous, stressful and badly paid. The key to the issue is not even to prosecute the offenders (although this has to be done) but to put procedures and safeguards into place to minimize and avoid police brutality. Having said that the culture and political climate in the US makes this particularly difficult. I didn't know one person counts as "people" nowadays. On July 22 2014 07:21 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Think of Cops as psychopaths but don't treat them as sub-human. They should punish the ones responsible really hard. Considering they are with the police force, it makes the crime even worse. Everything is well-documented, so it wouldn't make sense not to do that. The objective is to deter them from doing something like that again. So demonizing such acts would be one way to go. This would require the media's help but I doubt this will ever happen and this incident won't change anything. | ||
rd
United States2586 Posts
That being said, when a civilian accidentally kills someone, there are consequences. The officer chokeholding Garner neglected legal conduct and a man died for it, and subsequently should face criminal prosecution. Garner was definitely resisting arrest when he was on his feet; when he was on the ground he was in no position to resist, and could at most threaten the police officers with a broken nose from a flailing elbow. I'd gladly have my nose broken if it meant someone could be alive. Also, the comments made on the police forum are absolutely disgusting. | ||
NewSunshine
United States5651 Posts
| ||
Hazzyboy
Estonia555 Posts
| ||
endy
Switzerland8966 Posts
| ||
Odoakar
Croatia1834 Posts
On July 23 2014 06:36 rd wrote: Okay, the video posted in the OP is extremely biased. I read the thread before watching the video, and I'm glad I did, because my expectations were much higher than what I actually witnessed. Everything the police did in arresting this man seemed fine -- EXCEPT for the chokehold. It definitely did not appear like the officer chokeholding him had any intent of murdering him. The brutality has been way over exaggerated. That being said, when a civilian accidentally kills someone, there are consequences. The officer chokeholding Garner neglected legal conduct and a man died for it, and subsequently should face criminal prosecution. Garner was definitely resisting arrest when he was on his feet; when he was on the ground he was in no position to resist, and could at most threaten the police officers with a broken nose from a flailing elbow. I'd gladly have my nose broken if it meant someone could be alive. Also, the comments made on the police forum are absolutely disgusting. Yeah, I hear him being dead is also highly exaggerated. The dudes is probably chilling somewhere. -_- | ||
rd
United States2586 Posts
On July 23 2014 14:26 Odoakar wrote: Yeah, I hear him being dead is also highly exaggerated. The dudes is probably chilling somewhere. -_- ok. Come back when you watch some of the other notorious police brutality videos and actually witness a psychotic cop attempt to murder a suspect with intent. | ||
tokicheese
Canada739 Posts
On July 24 2014 04:14 rd wrote: ok. Come back when you watch some of the other notorious police brutality videos and actually witness a psychotic cop attempt to murder a suspect with intent. Who the fuck cares how violent it looked? The dude is fucking dead... He got choked out in cold blood and was murdered. | ||
Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
| ||
TelecoM
United States10583 Posts
| ||
dudeman001
United States2412 Posts
Other than that there's not much to add in terms of shit throwing. It was a very unfortunate outcome and I hope the justice system gives this the proper due process it deserves. | ||
Ayaz2810
United States2763 Posts
On July 23 2014 06:36 rd wrote: Okay, the video posted in the OP is extremely biased. I read the thread before watching the video, and I'm glad I did, because my expectations were much higher than what I actually witnessed. Everything the police did in arresting this man seemed fine -- EXCEPT for the chokehold. It definitely did not appear like the officer chokeholding him had any intent of murdering him. The brutality has been way over exaggerated. That being said, when a civilian accidentally kills someone, there are consequences. The officer chokeholding Garner neglected legal conduct and a man died for it, and subsequently should face criminal prosecution. Garner was definitely resisting arrest when he was on his feet; when he was on the ground he was in no position to resist, and could at most threaten the police officers with a broken nose from a flailing elbow. I'd gladly have my nose broken if it meant someone could be alive. Also, the comments made on the police forum are absolutely disgusting. For what it's worth, I agree with you on all points. | ||
Slaughter
United States20249 Posts
This anti-police shit needs to stop too. You become part of the problem because you are basically justifying some of those cop opinions about the public and they become even more jumpy when they are in the street and stuff like this is more prone to happen because it promotes people not respecting police and resisting and attempting to pull something while dealing with them. You also have to remember that from a cop's perspective they don't fucking know who is going to do something crazy and try to kill them and in fact being "nice" has gotten plenty of cops killed which is why they operate with overwhelming force in the first place when confronting a person who is resisting or w/e. They also have interactions with people/criminals THOUSANDS of times a day, so is it so surprising that SOME of them end up going wrong? Yet we never hear about the "good" interactions with police people have just the bad ones that make national news. What are the actual numbers on this type of incidents? Yes there will always be bad apples and defensive measures taken by the police when they get under fire etc but on the whole people who want to try to improve the police and how they deal with the public don't actually do anything but scream and shout when a story like this breaks. The real truth is that its a complex problem that is impossible to fix 100% because its people dealing with people and its impossible for both sides to both act "the right way" (depending on what your definition of the right way even is) when they are dealing with each other and of course the police will never be perfect in weeding out people not fit for the job or tracking people whose mindset might have shifted into bad territory through their experiences. | ||
-Kaiser-
Canada932 Posts
On July 25 2014 14:14 Slaughter wrote: Did this guy have some kind of condition? The force used was most definitely not enough to kill anyone unless it also was paired with a person having some underlying risk factors. The cop was in the wrong no doubt because he did do a choke hold, which is a forbidden move, but a lot of the people in this thread are blowing this way way out there and need to calm down before they reply because clearly some emotions are getting in the way. This anti-police shit needs to stop too. You become part of the problem because you are basically justifying some of those cop opinions about the public and they become even more jumpy when they are in the street and stuff like this is more prone to happen because it promotes people not respecting police and resisting and attempting to pull something while dealing with them. You also have to remember that from a cop's perspective they don't fucking know who is going to do something crazy and try to kill them and in fact being "nice" has gotten plenty of cops killed which is why they operate with overwhelming force in the first place when confronting a person who is resisting or w/e. They also have interactions with people/criminals THOUSANDS of times a day, so is it so surprising that SOME of them end up going wrong? Yet we never hear about the "good" interactions with police people have just the bad ones that make national news. What are the actual numbers on this type of incidents? Yes there will always be bad apples and defensive measures taken by the police when they get under fire etc but on the whole people who want to try to improve the police and how they deal with the public don't actually do anything but scream and shout when a story like this breaks. The real truth is that its a complex problem that is impossible to fix 100% because its people dealing with people and its impossible for both sides to both act "the right way" (depending on what your definition of the right way even is) when they are dealing with each other and of course the police will never be perfect in weeding out people not fit for the job or tracking people whose mindset might have shifted into bad territory through their experiences. The police officer assaulted the civilian in a way which is specifically prohibited for them, and it's specifically prohibited for a reason, and the man is dead as a result of the officer disobeying it. What part of that don't you understand? It didn't "Go wrong". The officer *did something wrong* and killed somebody as a result of it. | ||
Slaughter
United States20249 Posts
On July 25 2014 14:55 -Kaiser- wrote: The police officer assaulted the civilian in a way which is specifically prohibited for them, and it's specifically prohibited for a reason, and the man is dead as a result of the officer disobeying it. What part of that don't you understand? It didn't "Go wrong". The officer *did something wrong* and killed somebody as a result of it. Did you read my post? I said the cop was in the wrong, I was primarily talking about a larger problem. | ||
rd
United States2586 Posts
On July 25 2014 11:22 tokicheese wrote: Who the fuck cares how violent it looked? The dude is fucking dead... He got choked out in cold blood and was murdered. Clearly you don't, because if this man is to be charged for a crime, then its pretty important to specify where his actions lie in the varying degrees of murder. In law, you aren't just slapped with a universal murder charge because someone died through your actions. There are psychotic murderers who chop up people in their basement, there are drivers who get into accidents which they didn't cause. Intent is key. When examining the video, the officer looks like a reckless rookie trying to take down someone much bigger than him, not a cold blooded killer who choke holds at any opportunity for the thrill of murder. So again, please do go examine the other videos and witness cops who actually killed with intent. This officer most certainly did not intend death, nor serious injury, no matter how negligent his actions were. | ||
Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
On July 23 2014 11:58 Hazzyboy wrote: Such cops are in every country - problem is their colleagues go easy on them if they happen to break law. I highly doubt IA in any police department goes easy on any cop(s) that are involved in a questionable occurrence. It's their job to look into these kind of things, and they don't just let stuff go or sweep it under the rug. Accidental death, they won't see any jail/prison time, they'll probably get fired or at the very least suspended without pay. | ||
Velr
Switzerland10416 Posts
Wow.. Just wow... | ||
Fleetfeet
Canada2194 Posts
On July 26 2014 05:20 rd wrote: Clearly you don't, because if this man is to be charged for a crime, then its pretty important to specify where his actions lie in the varying degrees of murder. In law, you aren't just slapped with a universal murder charge because someone died through your actions. There are psychotic murderers who chop up people in their basement, there are drivers who get into accidents which they didn't cause. Intent is key. When examining the video, the officer looks like a reckless rookie trying to take down someone much bigger than him, not a cold blooded killer who choke holds at any opportunity for the thrill of murder. So again, please do go examine the other videos and witness cops who actually killed with intent. This officer most certainly did not intend death, nor serious injury, no matter how negligent his actions were. Regardless of intent, the result is a dead man purely because of negligence, negligence from a man who should be very well trained in the task he was attempting to do. That NEEDS to have both some level of the police as a unit stepping forward to take ownership of the offense, and publicizing a punishment. They need to show that they know and accept that how this played out is unacceptable, and if their employees are in a position where their mistake can take an otherwise functioning life then there need to be measures in place to prevent that from happening or greatly discourage the possibility. There should be no profession where killing a man over a petty crime isn't considered murder. | ||
Thalandros
Netherlands1151 Posts
| ||
Advantageous
China1350 Posts
| ||
ninazerg
United States7290 Posts
| ||
Vivax
Austria20865 Posts
Couple that with the feeling of belonging to a faction that many people don't like but still is necessary. I like to see them as martyrs that end up with an unhealthy mindset and apathy in the course of their careers, as they see all sorts of fucked up shit and have to enforce stuff they don't necessarily agree with, like going after certain drug delicts, or kicking people out of their homes cause they can't pay. They definitely need more supervision, especially in the US where stuff like this seems to be more common, although it certainly isn't confined to it. Try to give them more tasks that remind them that they are also a part of the people they have to look after, and not just of the police corps, and that they are supposed to do stuff that is right for a majority and not just for the cold law. | ||
rd
United States2586 Posts
On July 28 2014 18:11 Fleetfeet wrote: Regardless of intent, the result is a dead man purely because of negligence, negligence from a man who should be very well trained in the task he was attempting to do. That NEEDS to have both some level of the police as a unit stepping forward to take ownership of the offense, and publicizing a punishment. They need to show that they know and accept that how this played out is unacceptable, and if their employees are in a position where their mistake can take an otherwise functioning life then there need to be measures in place to prevent that from happening or greatly discourage the possibility. There should be no profession where killing a man over a petty crime isn't considered murder. Regardless of intent? You DO understand that in order to be convicted for murder of ANY degree in the USA, there HAS to be intent. To even be convicted of manslaughter, there has to be intent. Do you want to see negligent police officers behind bars? So do I. So lets charge them with crimes under the law we claim to abide by as they should too. If you have any respect for the criminal justice system you want upheld, you'll stop calling him a murderer/the crime murder; it exhumes bias and reckless ignorance. It was criminal negligence/negligent homicide. | ||
MiX
United States109 Posts
Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nypd-chokehold-arrest-of-eric-garner-ruled-homicide-by-medical-examiner/ Also, as someone who has a bachelor's degree in criminal justice I know all too well how screwed up our police system is. The paramilitary "us against them" style of policing has only enabled thugs in uniforms to do this shit and get away with it. I also have my own personal experiences with police brutality if that matters. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States21792 Posts
On August 02 2014 09:34 MiX wrote: The death of Eric Garner was officially ruled a homicide today by the New York City Medical Examiner's office. According to them, his death "was caused by compression of neck and chest." Not the ridiculous police bullshit that he died from a "heart attack." It's also fucking pathetic that the guy who did this was placed on desk duty after murdering someone. No suspension or firing, just desk duty. Apparently the FBI and U.S. Attorney's office are also starting an investigation. Hope this guy burns so police get a message they can't do this shit without consequence. Source: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/nypd-chokehold-arrest-of-eric-garner-ruled-homicide-by-medical-examiner/ Also, as someone who has a bachelor's degree in criminal justice I know all too well how screwed up our police system is. The paramilitary "us against them" style of policing has only enabled thugs in uniforms to do this shit and get away with it. I also have my own personal experiences with police brutality if that matters. Well with it being ruled a homicide and the FBI getting involved I think there is at least a 40/40 (tehehe) shot of him at least no longer being an officer of the law. After charging 6 dishonest, drug dealing, strong-arming, kidnapping, hostage taking, burglarizing, extortionist, etc... However based on how the NYPD responded to the complaints about obviously racist use of the stop and frisk policy,I can't be sure this killer will see justice. Too bad cops don't get paid more maybe they could just plead sudden and acute affluenza... (Got some kid out of doing ANY time after murdering 4 people while driving drunk). Most of the time our 'criminal justice' system feels more like a joke at poor peoples expense, than some righteous legal accounting system. | ||
Vindicare605
United States15719 Posts
On July 28 2014 23:13 Vivax wrote: Being a cop must be a terrible job. You're always confronted with the scum of society, you get trained to deal with the scum of society, you end up dealing with most as if they were the scum of society, all along with a feeling of "we're the law, have to behave perfectly and these guys can do whatever they want". Couple that with the feeling of belonging to a faction that many people don't like but still is necessary. I like to see them as martyrs that end up with an unhealthy mindset and apathy in the course of their careers, as they see all sorts of fucked up shit and have to enforce stuff they don't necessarily agree with, like going after certain drug delicts, or kicking people out of their homes cause they can't pay. They definitely need more supervision, especially in the US where stuff like this seems to be more common, although it certainly isn't confined to it. Try to give them more tasks that remind them that they are also a part of the people they have to look after, and not just of the police corps, and that they are supposed to do stuff that is right for a majority and not just for the cold law. God forbid we actually expect the people who are tasked with the responsibility of maintaining law and order to act responsibly. BTW. This case was officially ruled a homicide today. http://abcnews.go.com/US/nypd-chokehold-death-homicide-medical-examiner-rules/story?id=24811834 EDIT: I see I was beaten to the punch on this. | ||
Elroi
Sweden5471 Posts
| ||
LibertyRises
United States175 Posts
On July 23 2014 06:36 rd wrote: Okay, the video posted in the OP is extremely biased. I read the thread before watching the video, and I'm glad I did, because my expectations were much higher than what I actually witnessed. Everything the police did in arresting this man seemed fine -- EXCEPT for the chokehold. It definitely did not appear like the officer chokeholding him had any intent of murdering him. The brutality has been way over exaggerated. That being said, when a civilian accidentally kills someone, there are consequences. The officer chokeholding Garner neglected legal conduct and a man died for it, and subsequently should face criminal prosecution. Garner was definitely resisting arrest when he was on his feet; when he was on the ground he was in no position to resist, and could at most threaten the police officers with a broken nose from a flailing elbow. I'd gladly have my nose broken if it meant someone could be alive. Also, the comments made on the police forum are absolutely disgusting. As a person of color in America you should have known better. You do not break up fights, or get involved with anything where the police will be called. In fact, you do not even stay in the area you might get randomly detained. I made that mistake at a bar once, I got beat up, never threw a punch, when the cops came they took me down cuffed me on the curb and spoke down to me as if I was not even human. When they did clarify my story, and asked me if I wanted to press charges on the culprits I was so disillusioned I only wanted to get the fuck away. I will seriously reconsider anytime I get the urge to help someone in distress. And this is the world we live in. The police, if they do not relate to you in your area, do not feel you have the same rights as everyone else. Assumptions sometimes get you killed. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States21792 Posts
On August 03 2014 03:53 LibertyRises wrote: As a person of color in America you should have known better. You do not break up fights, or get involved with anything where the police will be called. In fact, you do not even stay in the area you might get randomly detained. I made that mistake at a bar once, I got beat up, never threw a punch, when the cops came they took me down cuffed me on the curb and spoke down to me as if I was not even human. When they did clarify my story, and asked me if I wanted to press charges on the culprits I was so disillusioned I only wanted to get the fuck away. I will seriously reconsider anytime I get the urge to help someone in distress. And this is the world we live in. The police, if they do not relate to you in your area, do not feel you have the same rights as everyone else. Assumptions sometimes get you killed. Sooo this ^ I thought I was the only one with a story like that. Some kid threatened to kill me in school (com college) and when I got in his face and told him I'd like to see him try, he ran away and told the teacher I was threatening/shoving him (I didn't touch him) him and the police came and arrested me. I spent 6 hours in jail before I could get bailed out, then after I had to pay for a lawyer they just dropped the charges. All along I thought I handled it well, because in my neighborhood the appropriate response to him threatening to kill me, would be to incapacitate him before he had the chance. If I hadn't blown my nest egg for a lawyer I would of had to plea to some bullshit charge and probably have to put it on all of my future applications. Not a shocker, but after threatening to slit my throat (which I told the officers and had several witnesses they refused to interview) he went on with the rest of his day while I sat in jail and dealt with the humiliation of leaving campus in the back of a squad car. The closest thing I have to a positive story with the police is one time I had a flat and the officer offered to leave his headlights on so we could change the spare. Of course that was after asking us about a dozen questions and then about 2 mins into getting the tire off he just pulls away without saying a word leaving us in the dark on the freeway to change the tire. I have never seen the police help anyone, ever, personally (unless you count letting white people off the hook). I saw a story once of an off duty cop jumping in some river or something to save a dog but that's about it. | ||
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
| ||
Enzymatic
Canada1301 Posts
My dad is a retired cop and detective, and he told me about the choke maneuver they learn a while back (there was something in the news here about a cop using it on someone and the guy sustained brain damage).. I was skeptical of its effectiveness, so I asked him to try it on me just for like a second to see what it feels like. Literally within 1-1.5 seconds I felt like passing out and couldn't even move my hands or legs (it was agonizing). And he told me it doesn't matter how big a guy is, if they're heavier, their weight actually works against them and makes it even worse for them. | ||
True_Spike
Poland3396 Posts
On July 28 2014 22:44 ninazerg wrote: Sometimes, the police just want to kick some ass. This is a video of the police who beat up Kelly Thomas. Thomas was hanging out in front of a nightclub, and the owners didn't like it, but since the sidewalk is public property, they called the police and falsely reported that someone was vandalizing cars in the area. What happened when the police showed up is pretty horrifying. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRt4V-BbREI This is painful to watch. "On January 13, 2014, Ramos and Cicinelli were found not guilty of all charges,[11] while the trial for Joe Wolfe was pending.[12] Following the verdict for the two officers, the district attorney's office announced it would not pursue the case against Officer Wolfe.[13]" Just ridiculous. Where I live a scene like that would cause a shitstorm and these "policeman" would rot behind bars, as they should. Police brutality is a systematic problem in the US, every few months a case like this comes to my attention. | ||
Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
On August 03 2014 04:58 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Wow, police in USA sound terrible. On a local level, I've found that the police in UK are mostly a friendly lot and I suspect the same for other countries. Perhaps it's a side effect of the glorification and cultural respect given to the police in USA? Crime in the US is fairly high. Police have to deal with some crazy shit, and you never know when someone might actually be insane enough to pull a weapon on a cop and kill them. Just as a note, playing devil's advocate here. What these men did was awful, and they do deserve to AT LEAST lose their jobs. In any line of work, you will find assholes and jerks that don't care about what "little" problem you are having, especially in the line of work in law enforcement. However, I sympathize with cops overall, because they often put their very lives on the line in dangerous and delicate situations. They aren't perfect people, but if innocent people are in danger, they will do everything they can to save them. Remember that people can say all the nasty things they want about the police, but at the end of the day, when they need help, they don't hesitate to call cops 9/10. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States21792 Posts
On August 03 2014 06:19 Cloud9157 wrote: Crime in the US is fairly high. Police have to deal with some crazy shit, and you never know when someone might actually be insane enough to pull a weapon on a cop and kill them. Just as a note, playing devil's advocate here. What these men did was awful, and they do deserve to AT LEAST lose their jobs. In any line of work, you will find assholes and jerks that don't care about what "little" problem you are having, especially in the line of work in law enforcement. However, I sympathize with cops overall, because they often put their very lives on the line in dangerous and delicate situations. They aren't perfect people, but if innocent people are in danger, they will do everything they can to save them. Remember that people can say all the nasty things they want about the police, but at the end of the day, when they need help, they don't hesitate to call cops 9/10. Well you have at least 2/10 right here right now that say otherwise but whatever about that. Minorities don't call the police for help probably 9/10 times (except for when they are calling the police on the police) and the ones that do are almost exclusively women. I'm completely done with the total bullshit excuse that 'cops jobs are dangerous/stressful' for assaulting and killing people. They don't even make the top 10 list of most dangerous jobs and you don't see any of the other people assaulting innocent people and/or killing them and only losing their job for it. If cops can't handle the stress and danger without killing innocent people they shouldn't be cops (as opposed to just forgiving their life ending mistakes). Cops need to be held to a higher standard than the rest of us, not a lower one that means that murdering someone will only cost you your job (maybe). At least in Philly they are re looking at the cases the felonious cops testified in. Of course the people abused by those police officers can never get back what 'the law' stole from them. | ||
Chocolate
United States2350 Posts
On August 03 2014 04:58 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Wow, police in USA sound terrible. On a local level, I've found that the police in UK are mostly a friendly lot and I suspect the same for other countries. Perhaps it's a side effect of the glorification and cultural respect given to the police in USA? They aren't all that bad, it's just that some are, and of course those are the ones that get noticed. We're a big country so it only takes a small percentage of police to give them a bad image. It's also a job with a lot of responsibility that tends to attract people from less educated backgrounds. That's not necessarily a good combination. That is not to say that privileged people are the only ones that should be in law enforcement, but that making the educational requirements higher would probably filter out a lot of the criminals that somehow end up on the "good" side of the law. | ||
Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
They don't even make the top 10 list of most dangerous jobs and you don't see any of the other people assaulting innocent people and/or killing them and only losing their job for it. I'd be interested to see information on this claim. Also comparing them to some other jobs doesn't quite work, since a dangerous job with minimal public interaction is not the same as police, who deal with the public more than most job fields do I'd wager. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States21792 Posts
Forty-one percent of all fatal workplace injuries happened in transportation incidents, which include car accidents, overturned vehicles and plane crashes. More than half (58%) of the 1,789 fatal transportation-related incidents occurred on highways, and involved motorized land vehicles. The second-highest cause of worker fatalities was assaults and violent acts, which accounted for 18% of deaths. The preliminary data shows that workplace suicides fell slightly in 2010 to 258 after climbing to a high of 263 the year before. Source You are more likely to be assaulted/killed as a bartender/salesman than you are as a cop. (Both interact with the public as much or more than cops) Bartenders (80 per 1,000) had the highest workplace violence rate of all... (cops were close at 77.8) Keep in mind this is with countless false reports about 'resisting'. (Mr. Garner would of been counted towards the police's statistics of workplace violence against them...)Source You can make all the excuses you want but they should be charged like anyone else would be, I could see a case for manslaughter but the idea that losing their jobs would in any way be sufficient, seems unscrupulous and disgusting in every way. The police are supposed to be here to protect and serve US. Not harass and arrest/assault/murder. If they can't handle the stress and danger of dealing with the public they need to find a different line of work. And I don't mean after they kill someone. The fact that a man was killed for no good reason and people are suggesting that losing their jobs alone would be anywhere near justice blows my mind. | ||
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On August 03 2014 06:38 Chocolate wrote: They aren't all that bad, it's just that some are, and of course those are the ones that get noticed. We're a big country so it only takes a small percentage of police to give them a bad image. It's also a job with a lot of responsibility that tends to attract people from less educated backgrounds. That's not necessarily a good combination. That is not to say that privileged people are the only ones that should be in law enforcement, but that making the educational requirements higher would probably filter out a lot of the criminals that somehow end up on the "good" side of the law. I don't think you can argue that "we" are so much bigger is an excuse when proportionally these police brutality incidence appear to be higher than other countries in the developed world. | ||
Deleted User 26513
2376 Posts
| ||
hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On August 03 2014 06:38 Chocolate wrote: They aren't all that bad, it's just that some are, and of course those are the ones that get noticed. We're a big country so it only takes a small percentage of police to give them a bad image. The "few bad apples" argument would be more convincing if those bad apples actually ended up behind bars. Ideally based on testimony from their honest colleagues. | ||
nikj
Canada669 Posts
| ||
screamingpalm
United States1527 Posts
On August 03 2014 03:53 LibertyRises wrote: As a person of color in America you should have known better. You do not break up fights, or get involved with anything where the police will be called. In fact, you do not even stay in the area you might get randomly detained. I made that mistake at a bar once, I got beat up, never threw a punch, when the cops came they took me down cuffed me on the curb and spoke down to me as if I was not even human. When they did clarify my story, and asked me if I wanted to press charges on the culprits I was so disillusioned I only wanted to get the fuck away. I will seriously reconsider anytime I get the urge to help someone in distress. And this is the world we live in. The police, if they do not relate to you in your area, do not feel you have the same rights as everyone else. Assumptions sometimes get you killed. I was in an awkward situation once when I was in the Navy stationed in Mississippi. A group of us went out to a bar that ended up with police brutality of our black shipmate, the only thing he did was talk to a white girl. He wasn't being aggressive or anything, the guy had a very calm and mild manner/personality. I was really close to getting involved, but by the time we had made it outside on the scene, it was over with. It actually ended up being better that we didn't, because the bar owner later had the audacity to consider pressing charges (from past experiences, I know that he would have been screwed if we had helped him- laws concerning alcohol etc). I was even approached by one of chain of command and asked if I planned to testify ("because, you don't have to" he said)- I said that I would and pretty sure the others did the same. | ||
Chocolate
United States2350 Posts
On August 03 2014 09:08 hypercube wrote: The "few bad apples" argument would be more convincing if those bad apples actually ended up behind bars. Ideally based on testimony from their honest colleagues. Oh yes, I fully agree. On August 03 2014 07:16 Dangermousecatdog wrote: I don't think you can argue that "we" are so much bigger is an excuse when proportionally these police brutality incidence appear to be higher than other countries in the developed world. They appear to be higher, they might not be necessarily. Personally I think that since we have so much crime (specifically gang and drug trafficking related), such easy availability of guns, and such belligerent people it makes sense for it to be a little higher, since cops will feel in danger more frequently. Of course, that doesn't excuse police brutality at all | ||
Vindicare605
United States15719 Posts
On August 03 2014 09:08 hypercube wrote: The "few bad apples" argument would be more convincing if those bad apples actually ended up behind bars. Ideally based on testimony from their honest colleagues. This is my main issue with all of this. Are all police bad? No of course not, but you'd think that especially with all of the controversy surrounding various departments (NYPD being probably the most notable) that the Police Departments would actively be trying to punish bad cops in order to promote good will. That's the opposite of what's happening though. Good cops protect bad cops. It gives the appearance that the entire department is corrupt when blatant violence and brutality like the one in this case goes unpunished. If the police department at least LOOKED like they cared about putting a stop to this, it would go a long way at putting people at ease, but they aren't. From my point of view it doesn't look like they care at all. And the thing is, especially with large police departments like NYPD, we KNOW that significant portions of the department can be corrupt for a long period of time. We've seen it in Chicago, Los Angeles, New York and almost every major US city, there's been a scandal or several involving police officers being corrupt or highly publicized instances of brutality. There's a lot of very good reasons why cops have a bad reputation in the US. It would go a long way if they at least acted like they cared. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States21792 Posts
On August 03 2014 13:44 Vindicare605 wrote: This is my main issue with all of this. Are all police bad? No of course not, but you'd think that especially with all of the controversy surrounding various departments (NYPD being probably the most notable) that the Police Departments would actively be trying to punish bad cops in order to promote good will. That's the opposite of what's happening though. Good cops protect bad cops. It gives the appearance that the entire department is corrupt when blatant violence and brutality like the one in this case goes unpunished. If the police department at least LOOKED like they cared about putting a stop to this, it would go a long way at putting people at ease, but they aren't. From my point of view it doesn't look like they care at all. And the thing is, especially with large police departments like NYPD, we KNOW that significant portions of the department can be corrupt for a long period of time. We've seen it in Chicago, Los Angeles, New York and almost every major US city, there's been a scandal or several involving police officers being corrupt or highly publicized instances of brutality. There's a lot of very good reasons why cops have a bad reputation in the US. It would go a long way if they at least acted like they cared. In fairness that's what I would like too. I really want to believe police are supposed to help people but it's so hard when not only is that the opposite of my personal interactions , but when I see cover-up after cover-up, and lie after lie. Like this cop and the ones who played along. They were going to ruin an innocent woman's life to save a colleague who was driving like a jackass and most of them just lost their job and the one who masterminded attempting to ruin this woman's life ended up getting 90 days?! If it was Washington state she would of lost her license for longer than that, just for the cop writing the ticket regardless if she proved her innocence or not. Convicted of falsifying a crash report and a DUI report, both misdemeanors, Pressley now faces just under two years behind bars when sentenced Dec. 21. He was acquitted on five felony conspiracy counts and two other counts of falsifying records. Source The former Hollywood police officer whose crash with a drunken driver set off a chain of events that cost him and a fellow cop their jobs pleaded guilty Monday to falsifying an accident report in the case. In a deal negotiated with prosecutors, Joel Francisco pleaded guilty in front of Broward Circuit Judge Michael Robinson to two counts of falsifying records and will serve 90 days in jail starting when he surrenders April 30. Source Then there is this story from the same department... On 28 December 2010, Officer Jonathan Commella beat and tasered Arben Bajra while he was handcuffed. Bajra's skull was fractured in the attack and he suffered permanent impairment. Commella had mistaken Bajra for someone. No charges were brought against either man. In November 2013 the department paid Bajra $195,000. Commella had by then moved on to be a deputy of the Broward County Sheriff Source They don't even pretend to care and if they didn't get caught red handed most of the cases would never even be brought. It makes me sick to my stomach to know there is probably cops like this in every major city and plenty of smaller ones too. Politicians may take my money by force and spend it on shit I don't want, but at least I don't have to worry about one of them beating me senseless or choking me to death unprovoked and then just finding a new job as a security guard a few months later... | ||
Nacl(Draq)
United States302 Posts
They don't even pretend to care and if they didn't get caught red handed most of the cases would never even be brought. It makes me sick to my stomach to know there is probably cops like this in every major city and plenty of smaller ones too. Politicians may take my money by force and spend it on shit I don't want, but at least I don't have to worry about one of them beating me senseless or choking me to death unprovoked and then just finding a new job as a security guard a few months later... At least when a security guard messes up and kills someone "accidentally" or "mistakenly" they end up in jail for it. It's such a shitty situation to have a group of people that not only enforce the law but are also allowed to ignore it or even bend it when they want. | ||
Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
It's pretty sad to hear him repeatedly saying "I can't breathe" and they're not letting go off him. RIP. | ||
Yoav
United States1874 Posts
On August 03 2014 04:58 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Wow, police in USA sound terrible. On a local level, I've found that the police in UK are mostly a friendly lot and I suspect the same for other countries. Perhaps it's a side effect of the glorification and cultural respect given to the police in USA? Well, the questions you have to ask is: 1) Are you from a minority people are racist against? and 2) Are you from a poorer neighborhood? In the US, as in most places, people from dominant racial and economic categories get treated better by cops and by government. It's bad, and we should work against it, but I'm fairly certain poor blacks and Muslims in the inner-city in the UK have a pretty hard time with the police too. Also, I've noticed a difference in rural versus urban cops, but I'm not sure if it's statistically significant. Cops in VT are generally quite friendly, while cops in NYC are often really rude. Or maybe it's just another example of that US phenomena of unequal services due to our decentralization. | ||
Deleted User 3420
24492 Posts
| ||
Gorsameth
Netherlands20759 Posts
On December 04 2014 07:14 travis wrote: Despite the video that clearly shows the police killing him, the fact that a chokehold is a technique that is illegal for police to use, and a ruling of homicide by the coroner, they have ruled no indictment for any of the police involved. And people wonder why there are protests and riot. I would laugh if it wasnt so sad. | ||
Brutaxilos
United States2572 Posts
This disgusts me as an American. | ||
Doraemon
Australia14949 Posts
| ||
Rho_
United States971 Posts
On December 04 2014 08:12 Doraemon wrote: how does this even happen...and having videos on cops is going to change things? I hear you, but statistically it does. Some jurisdictions already have it, and in them the rate of force use is down and the rate of complaints against police is down. That said, it is incredible to me that no charges were returned. Michael Brown had some conflicting evidence, and while I felt like the officer was probably in the wrong, the contradictory eye witnesses cast enough doubt for me to see how jurors could not return charges. In this case, the shit is on tape. Those jurors should be ashamed. I am ashamed. It is beyond me how they did not return charges. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
| ||
killa_robot
Canada1884 Posts
On December 04 2014 09:24 Ace wrote: There is nothing to charge. It's an indictment which means they need to find probable cause for a trial to occur. In both cases, if there is even a shred of conflicting reports it's probably going to trial to hear both sides. That is why people are upset - cops are given leeway far above what citizens are allowed to have. They are being put above the law. There's video evidence he did something wrong. I'm not even sure how indictment cannot occur. I mean, how can you watch a video and be like "Well we see him doing something wrong, and we know it's wrong, but we don't think it's enough to charge him for doing something wrong". This case should cause WAYYYYYYYYY more anger than the Michael Brown one. There's a legitimate reason to get pissed and burn the police station to the ground because of this. | ||
Ace
United States16096 Posts
| ||
Doraemon
Australia14949 Posts
| ||
Rho_
United States971 Posts
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/eric-garner-chokehold-staten-island-grand-jury-indict/ Guess that's why no charges... | ||
peanuts
United States1224 Posts
Wonder how bad the backlash to this is gonna be. NY seems to be relatively calm right now, but I wouldn't be surprised at some heavy protesting in the next few days. NYPD's been gettin a bad rap the past few months and this certainly won't help. :/ | ||
Rho_
United States971 Posts
On December 04 2014 10:39 peanuts wrote: **sigh* Wonder how bad the backlash to this is gonna be. NY seems to be relatively calm right now, but I wouldn't be surprised at some heavy protesting in the next few days. NYPD's been gettin a bad rap the past few months and this certainly won't help. :/ People are blocking the West Side Highway. | ||
LambtrOn
United States671 Posts
| ||
NNLBboy
United States67 Posts
| ||
Saryph
United States1955 Posts
| ||
QuanticHawk
United States32008 Posts
On December 04 2014 10:10 Ace wrote: Oh there is a lot of anger over this. It just doesn't seem to be Mike Brown levels yet outside of NYC. I don't understand why Mike Brown's case got more traction than this. Brown's case had extremely limited evidence that pointed towards the cop's story being accurate, and there were many witnesses that outright lied. It very clearly would have gone no where in court, not because he is a cop, but because the case was built on nothing. I'm still not sure if it was right to pass on indicting him, but I think for certain it was going no where. I don't really get how this did not result in an indictment since that move was specifically banned by the NYPD. That alone does not make it a crime, but definitely something he will absolutely get canned and sued for. However, the fact that it was banned specifically because it carries a high risk of hurtung/killing some, he used it, and it resulted in the death of a suspect, I would think that should have at least gone to court to see if he was criminally negligent. | ||
m4ini
4215 Posts
That alone does not make it a crime, but definitely something he will absolutely get canned and sued for. In my book, what he did pretty much fits the definition of a crime. Somebody used a banned technique, known to inflict serious damage/death. That by itself is a crime. Just because it was done by some fuckhead from the police, doesn't mean it's not assault. But as i said in one of the other threads about policecrime(..), the US law/justice system is a fricking joke, especially in regards to punish servants of the government. In no other developed country in the world would he just walk as if nothing happened. As a cop, i'd feel pretty good right now, knowing that i basically have to execute somebody on the open street, him kneeing and me shooting the back of his head point blank right after i shout "because i can, fucker" to actually be punished. I honestly don't even remotely understand how people can even complain that the police is so corrupt/violent, that problem didn't just come up, it's made by "decisions" like this. If you don't have to fear punishment even for clear crimes (as this one), what's there to fear? | ||
killa_robot
Canada1884 Posts
On December 04 2014 12:51 QuanticHawk wrote: I don't understand why Mike Brown's case got more traction than this. Brown's case had extremely limited evidence that pointed towards the cop's story being accurate, and there were many witnesses that outright lied. It very clearly would have gone no where in court, not because he is a cop, but because the case was built on nothing. I'm still not sure if it was right to pass on indicting him, but I think for certain it was going no where. I don't really get how this did not result in an indictment since that move was specifically banned by the NYPD. That alone does not make it a crime, but definitely something he will absolutely get canned and sued for. However, the fact that it was banned specifically because it carries a high risk of hurtung/killing some, he used it, and it resulted in the death of a suspect, I would think that should have at least gone to court to see if he was criminally negligent. The media + that one group who went public with Michael Brown's family is probably the reason there is such a different reaction. And I don't think obama commented on this case (until after), while he made the terrible claim that if he had a son, he'd look like brown. That and, you know, people tend to be morons. They just jump on whatever is most popular at the time. | ||
Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
| ||
ZapRoffo
United States5544 Posts
"In America, if you fraudulently sell cigarettes the cops will literally kill you but if you fraudulently sell mortgages you will get a bonus" | ||
Foblos
United States426 Posts
| ||
GreenHorizons
United States21792 Posts
On December 04 2014 13:35 Foblos wrote: Can we start demanding our state lawmakers force into law the demand that if a cop kills someone they need to be tried like any other criminal? This is getting out of hand. Getting? It's just "getting" caught on camera now. | ||
Foblos
United States426 Posts
On December 04 2014 13:52 GreenHorizons wrote: Getting? It's just "getting" caught on camera now. It's been (getting) out of hand for quite some time. But yes, it is becoming a lot more public now. | ||
oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On December 04 2014 10:33 Rho_ wrote: Apparently polls showed only 41% of Staten Island residents supported charges against the officer. http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/eric-garner-chokehold-staten-island-grand-jury-indict/ Guess that's why no charges... staten island is a suburb. saw some protests in downtown brooklyn it will probably be bigger tomorrow. ' On December 04 2014 13:28 Nyxisto wrote: The Michael Brown case escalated because this is not about single cases, it's systemic. That African-Americans get killed by self-proclaimed neighborhood militias or during ridiculous police encounters now seems to be a weekly occurrence. Institutional racism only ended in the 60's and I feel that the US has never re-evaluated their history properly. This is especially awful because if this doesn't happen under the 8 year presidency of an African-American civil rights lawyer I wonder if it will happen at all. obama is a constitutional lawyer. his activism stuff doesn't seem very genuine right now. | ||
OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
On December 04 2014 13:35 Foblos wrote: Can we start demanding our state lawmakers force into law the demand that if a cop kills someone they need to be tried like any other criminal? This is getting out of hand. There is a push in Minneapolis to force all cops to carry insurance like a doctor or contractor. The city pays the base rate, as the cop screws up their insurance rate goes up, they have to pay out of pocket and become uninsurable so they're out of a job. A potential step in the right direction. IMO body cams should be required that can't be turned off, uploaded online so people can view them at will. | ||
killa_robot
Canada1884 Posts
On December 04 2014 14:15 OuchyDathurts wrote: There is a push in Minneapolis to force all cops to carry insurance like a doctor or contractor. The city pays the base rate, as the cop screws up their insurance rate goes up, they have to pay out of pocket and become uninsurable so they're out of a job. A potential step in the right direction. IMO body cams should be required that can't be turned off, uploaded online so people can view them at will. No. Just no. That's a terrible idea. Why would we give criminals open access to the routines of cops? Get the body cams, record everything, then store it all for ~a month (or less if needed). If there's an issue brought up, relocate the videos for the cops in question on the relevant days to a more permanent server to be reviewed and catalogued as evidence. Otherwise no one reviews the videos (would take way too fucking long anyway), and they're deleted if not needed after a set amount of time. It's the best mix between being reasonably priced and effective imo. The cops deserve some privacy too. Having what I did on file for review is one thing, having my every moved observed and judged is something else entirely. We still need people to want to be cops, and it's a bad enough job as is. | ||
oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
| ||
OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
On December 04 2014 14:31 killa_robot wrote: No. Just no. That's a terrible idea. Why would we give criminals open access to the routines of cops? Get the body cams, record everything, then store it all for ~a month (or less if needed). If there's an issue brought up, relocate the videos for the cops in question on the relevant days to a more permanent server to be reviewed and catalogued as evidence. Otherwise no one reviews the videos (would take way too fucking long anyway), and they're deleted if not needed after a set amount of time. It's the best mix between being reasonably priced and effective imo. The cops deserve some privacy too. Having what I did on file for review is one thing, having my every moved observed and judged is something else entirely. We still need people to want to be cops, and it's a bad enough job as is. Public servants, driving cars, carrying guns, and collecting paychecks from the people. I think I'm well within my rights to see what they're up to since they do a piss poor job of policing themselves. No BS with turning off your camera when you want to break the law. No sudden disappearing or malfunctioning of equipment. The raw video should be made available to the public. We have too many cops as is. I can listen to basically any police scanner I want to online already. They should be scared to be held accountable, they wield a ton of power, way more power than they should. Its time the people had a check to that power. | ||
darthfoley
United States7999 Posts
| ||
Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On December 04 2014 14:15 OuchyDathurts wrote: There is a push in Minneapolis to force all cops to carry insurance like a doctor or contractor. The city pays the base rate, as the cop screws up their insurance rate goes up, they have to pay out of pocket and become uninsurable so they're out of a job. A potential step in the right direction. IMO body cams should be required that can't be turned off, uploaded online so people can view them at will. Minneapolis is also doing body cams soon. | ||
OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
On December 04 2014 14:49 Stratos_speAr wrote: Minneapolis is also doing body cams soon. Which is why the cops were butthurt and claiming the mayor was "flashing gang signs" by pointing at a guy. Body cams that are under the control of the officer are the tiniest of baby steps though. | ||
Foblos
United States426 Posts
On December 04 2014 14:47 OuchyDathurts wrote: Public servants, driving cars, carrying guns, and collecting paychecks from the people. I think I'm well within my rights to see what they're up to since they do a piss poor job of policing themselves. No BS with turning off your camera when you want to break the law. No sudden disappearing or malfunctioning of equipment. The raw video should be made available to the public. We have too many cops as is. I can listen to basically any police scanner I want to online already. They should be scared to be held accountable, they wield a ton of power, way more power than they should. Its time the people had a check to that power. I think that there is a degree to fairness in both your points. The guy above you is right that we don't need to start sending helicopters to make sure the helicopters are doing their job right, but at the same time you're right that they are essentially on our payroll, and are dangerous, and we should have the right to personal inquiry. I would be happy if they were treated like a lot of other official doccuments, where they are archived for fifty years or so and citizens can petition to view the records. That protects the PERSON behind the badge from having their entire life continually exposed like a cam girl while at the same time ensuring transparency and making it really difficult for cops to get away with stuff. Also, I agree with the non-offable body cams. | ||
BlueSpace
Germany2182 Posts
On December 04 2014 14:31 killa_robot wrote: No. Just no. That's a terrible idea. Why would we give criminals open access to the routines of cops? Get the body cams, record everything, then store it all for ~a month (or less if needed). If there's an issue brought up, relocate the videos for the cops in question on the relevant days to a more permanent server to be reviewed and catalogued as evidence. Otherwise no one reviews the videos (would take way too fucking long anyway), and they're deleted if not needed after a set amount of time. It's the best mix between being reasonably priced and effective imo. The cops deserve some privacy too. Having what I did on file for review is one thing, having my every moved observed and judged is something else entirely. We still need people to want to be cops, and it's a bad enough job as is. I think the system should be closed and automatic. Videos can only be viewed if a judge allows. Not even the cops should have free access to them. This protects the privacy of everyone involved and also makes it harder to temper with the system itself. | ||
Doublemint
Austria8366 Posts
On December 04 2014 13:35 ZapRoffo wrote: Tweet that's going around: "In America, if you fraudulently sell cigarettes the cops will literally kill you but if you fraudulently sell mortgages you will get a bonus" yeah saw that as well. highly polemic but not without basis to be honest. | ||
Incognoto
France10234 Posts
On December 04 2014 18:44 Doublemint wrote: yeah saw that as well. highly polemic but not without basis to be honest. It's because it has such as strong basis that it's polemic in the first. Let's be serious, that kind of stuff is a problem in America. Of course police brutality is something that isn't limited to just the United States. | ||
Doublemint
Austria8366 Posts
On December 04 2014 18:56 Incognoto wrote: It's because it has such as strong basis that it's polemic in the first. Let's be serious, that kind of stuff is a problem in America. Of course police brutality is something that isn't limited to just the United States. true that. | ||
The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Was this really necessary? And again no indictment? Man this stuff makes me angry :/ He even said he can't breathe anymore... | ||
| ||