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TLADT24917 Posts
Surprised that there's no thread on this. Pretty scary incident. Sounds like a hate crime based on everything so far. RIP to the three victims. I hope that justice prevails in the end. Some relevant quotes:
Officers were called to reports of gunshots at 5.11pm at an apartment block largely housing academics and young professionals on Summerwalk Circle in Chapel Hill.
A 46-year-old man, named by police as Craig Stephen Hicks, has been arrested on suspicion of three counts of first-degree murder.
Hicks described himself as an atheist on Facebook and posted regular images and text condemning all religions. Police said he handed himself in last night.
In a statement released on Wednesday morning (local time), Chapel Hill Police said that a preliminary investigation suggested the crime was “motivated by an ongoing neighbour dispute over parking”.
But the women’s father, Dr Mohammad Abu-Salha, who has a psychiatry practice in Clayton, told the North Carolina News and Observer that he believed the shooting was based on the religion and culture of the victims.
"This was not a dispute over a parking space; this was a hate crime," he said.
He went on to allege that Hicks had "picked on" his daughter and her husband "a couple times before."
"They were uncomfortable with him, but they did not know he would go this far," he said.
Some compared the incident to the Charlie Hebdo shootings in Paris, and others called on Barack Obama and senior religious figures to condemn the attacks.
An American football and basketball fan, Mr Barakat was believed to be a dental student at the University of North Carolina and volunteered with a charity providing emergency dental care to children in Palestine.
He regularly posted on Twitter, and wrote in January: “It's so freaking sad to hear people saying we should ‘kill Jews’ or ‘kill Palestinians’. As if that's going to solve anything.” Really sad all around. What do you guys think was the reason for this (based on what we have)?
Link: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/chapel-hill-shooting-three-young-muslims-gunned-down-in-north-carolina-at-their-family-home-10037734.html
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We don't really have any useful facts to make a determination.
Why do police think it was over a parking spot over religion? What were their previous arguments/harassment(?) about?
Hate crime is such a silly phrase, a crime is a crime no matter the motivation. Is killing someone because you hate them for their religion/race any worse/better than killing them because you hate them due to non race/religion reasons?
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So this was either about atheism, a dispute about parking, or a hate crime targeting Muslims. Bizarre.
I feel sad for the loss of the three people. The trial should be interesting since this psycho turned himself in.
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On February 12 2015 09:57 Chewbacca. wrote: We don't really have any useful facts to make a determination.
Why do police think it was over a parking spot over religion? What were their previous arguments/harassment(?) about?
Hate crime is such a silly phrase, a crime is a crime no matter the motivation. Is killing someone because you hate them for their religion/race any worse/better than killing them because you hate them due to non race/religion reasons?
Murder is murder and there and nothing can be done when talking about the dead, but the fact that some people are dead because of someone's prejudices against a certain group is what makes incidents like this rather significant.
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While I sincerely doubt it was the trigger or main motivator, it seems naive to think the atmosphere of animosity toward Muslims (especially in NC) didn't contribute to the decision to kill 3 people, 1 young man and 2 women, one of which was still a teenager.
That's an especially heinous crime. Considering they were all shot in the head, it sounds pretty cold-blooded, regardless of how heated an argument over parking might get.
Hard for me to believe he hadn't had several of those "One of these days..." moments with his wife, though I wouldn't expect her to rat her husband out even if he clearly screwed up.
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This is sad and another crazy thing going on in the world...glad my sister doesn't go to school there anymore, will pray for the victims families...god bless
EDIT : Suspicion ? Oh I read this wrong. If no one was hurt then this was a good thing they got caught before hand.
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this was a hate crime through and through. i won't say i'm religious but i do believe in a greater power. with that being said, the guy obviously requires both psychiatry help and to be locked up. there is no excuse to kill a person over beliefs that do not threaten your survival.
but i think setting an example here would be great for everyone alike, so i'd like to be the first one to say, yeah what he did was blatantly wrong, but by no means should others who are religious condemn this man's actions as a thing that represents all or any other person who is atheist. i often times feel like these articles get out of hand and misinterpreted easily. generally it's a religious figure who is blown up in the media, and the rest of those who maybe in that religion take the fall for their behavior, it's about time we stop this blind stereotyping.
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lol parking...really? condolences to the family/friends of the victims...
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bit egregious that there is so little media coverage on this if the demographics of the victims and perpetrator were reversed, i am fairly sure we might be hearing more about this
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On February 12 2015 13:08 phosphorylation wrote: bit egregious that there is so little media coverage on this if the demographics of the victims and perpetrator were reversed, i am fairly sure we might be hearing more about this not to mention the endless 'TERRORISM' angle here. But thats the nice part about being white, some nutso goes crazy and kills people and you dont have to defend the entire culture but if you are brown better be prepared to explain the last 600 years of history...
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On February 12 2015 13:48 Sub40APM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2015 13:08 phosphorylation wrote: bit egregious that there is so little media coverage on this if the demographics of the victims and perpetrator were reversed, i am fairly sure we might be hearing more about this not to mention the endless 'TERRORISM' angle here. But thats the nice part about being white, some nutso goes crazy and kills people and you dont have to defend the entire culture but if you are brown better be prepared to explain the last 600 years of history...
I doubt it will be too long till it gets turned into an anti-Atheist/Progressive/Media type meme though.
Pre-post edit: Damn that was fast...
Three Muslim students at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill were tragically murdered by a crazed progressive atheist, and the mainstream media is ignoring that fact.
Yet even a passive look at his Facebook page would reveal Hicks is not only a rabid atheist, but a passionate progressive.
Source
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Yea the over the parking spot thing is a little over the top lol >_<
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On February 12 2015 12:53 saocyn wrote: this was a hate crime through and through. i won't say i'm religious but i do believe in a greater power. with that being said, the guy obviously requires both psychiatry help and to be locked up. there is no excuse to kill a person over beliefs that do not threaten your survival.
but i think setting an example here would be great for everyone alike, so i'd like to be the first one to say, yeah what he did was blatantly wrong, but by no means should others who are religious condemn this man's actions as a thing that represents all or any other person who is atheist. i often times feel like these articles get out of hand and misinterpreted easily. generally it's a religious figure who is blown up in the media, and the rest of those who maybe in that religion take the fall for their behavior, it's about time we stop this blind stereotyping.
Going to play devils advocate and ask how do you KNOW this was a hate crime? It's weird to me people KNOW this is a hate crime even though we have almost no facts besides he loathes religion.
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Looks like a hate crime that is being covered up as something else to avoid a media frenzy/mass protest.
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On February 12 2015 22:26 SwizzY wrote: Looks like a hate crime that is being covered up as something else to avoid a media frenzy/mass protest. But why? Tell us why you think its a hate crime.
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I find it so stupid that an atheist would do this. So he doesn't believe in the after life, and now he will spend the remaining portion of his life behind bars. With no thought in his mind of ever ascending into something better. What a fucking moron, even by his own judgement. All to prove a point that what.. Muslims kill people (what?).. as he kills people too.. And if it was over a parking spot, what the fuck? That's just as dumb.. spend 1 minute driving around.. or 1 lifetime in jail.
Don't normally say this but, damn, this guy needs some corporal punishment ontop of that jail time.
So insane, so sad.
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I'll wait for the investigation to finish before figuring what the shooters goals were. To me it's just another crime. I don't feel a great need to have threads/discuss every murder that happens. This was only 3 murders in a single incident. That's just not much at all for the US.
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On February 12 2015 10:05 coverpunch wrote: So this was either about atheism, a dispute about parking, or a hate crime targeting Muslims. Bizarre.
I feel sad for the loss of the three people. The trial should be interesting since this psycho turned himself in. I'm curious about this, did you genuinely feel sadness (which is a very strong emotion) over the death of 3 random people? So...perma-feels when you learn that 1.8 people die every second.
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On February 12 2015 23:04 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2015 10:05 coverpunch wrote: So this was either about atheism, a dispute about parking, or a hate crime targeting Muslims. Bizarre.
I feel sad for the loss of the three people. The trial should be interesting since this psycho turned himself in. I'm curious about this, did you genuinely feel sadness (which is a very strong emotion) over the death of 3 random people? So...perma-feels when you learn that 1.8 people die every second. This shows a complete lack of understanding of human nature.
would you feel sad if someone you know of passed away?
people feel more related when you paint the story out and therefore it is expected that some would feel sad given how much these 3 people media have been providing information about.
would you feel lucky or sad if you have cancer now that you know 1.8 people die every second and you only have cancer? Do you not feel anything because "x" is always bigger/happening/happened?
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I'm sorry I'm not as liberal with my emotions. I'm also sorry for my complete lack of understanding of human nature. I'd feel sad about it, if I didn't know what "sad" actually means.
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People actually feel sad when they read these stories? I always thought they just say these things because they want to fulfil their urge to post something, or as a social response, a bit like taking about the weather, not becuase they actually feel sad about it. If you do feel sad about it, you must basically be in a sad state of mind constantly if you read the newspapers or read the news. Or is it a case of ignorance is bliss?
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People react differently to different things. Attempting to gauge the honesty of online posts relative to the emotions of the poster is not going to work out lol. Better to just to take it or leave it at face value.
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No one is not knowing what sad means. These conceptual terminology will always result in different understanding of emotions. Same for how much is needed to make you feel "sad" about it.
But it is however strange that you would find it hard to understand why some may be sad about this issue. Especially if your reasoning is just to say oh but there is so many deaths every day. Not all deaths has the same impact and especially not onto each individual because of individual differences and limited information for example.
For example I felt truly sad about Leelah Alcorn because I knew of someone close experienced similar issue as well but luckily my society do not have faith healing
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On February 12 2015 23:42 Dangermousecatdog wrote: People actually feel sad when they read these stories? I always thought they just say these things because they want to fulfil their urge to post something, or as a social response, a bit like taking about the weather, not becuase they actually feel sad about it. If you do feel sad about it, you must basically be in a sad state of mind constantly if you read the newspapers or read the news. Or is it a case of ignorance is bliss? That was my take at understanding human nature as well, but apparently I'm completely off the mark. I didn't exclude right away the fact that a small fraction of people may really feel sad when reading this kind of news, hence my initial question.
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On February 12 2015 23:50 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2015 23:42 Dangermousecatdog wrote: People actually feel sad when they read these stories? I always thought they just say these things because they want to fulfil their urge to post something, or as a social response, a bit like taking about the weather, not becuase they actually feel sad about it. If you do feel sad about it, you must basically be in a sad state of mind constantly if you read the newspapers or read the news. Or is it a case of ignorance is bliss? That was my take at understanding human nature as well, but apparently I'm completely off the mark. I didn't exclude right away the fact that a small fraction of people may really feel sad when reading this kind of news, hence my initial question.
Edit: Also, I'll just say again that all I did was asking if that sadness covermunch was talking about was genuine. I wasn't making fun of him or anything. If you saw any malicious intent in my post then that's on you.
Edit2: Shit, sorry for the double post, meant to edit Well I think I'll stop there then. Obviously not a happy incident in any case.
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I thought the way you asked was rude, if it wasn't then my apologies. I didn't like the fact that you dismiss the three victim as 3 random people.
And as an econmetric graduates, my first lesson was about: one must always remember that every data you obtained correctly are important and you should not dismiss them just because there are many like it, every data carries a meaning of its own and sometimes needs to remember it is more than just a figure.
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Out of genuine curiousity, did you actually feel sadness?
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Why would this even make (inter) national news?
If every murder in the US was reported in international media, we would get spammed more than once per hour.
Before I get banned, according to wikipedia, there have been 14,827 murders in the USA in 2012. That's like 40 a day. Slightly less than in North Korea, like 10% less, twice as many murders per capita than Syria. Almost five times as many Czech Republic.
So just cool it with the conspiracy theories. This wasn't 'covered up' because of the Muslim targets, it's just too common an occurance to report it.
€: WTF happens in D. C.? From 2001-2005 it had like ten times the national average homicide rate:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate
Are executions ... executed in the capitol? Or how else can you explain that?
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This story is already completely gone off CNN.com. It's nowhere to be found on their page.
I find it shocking that there is such a double standard with how Muslims are treated in the media. I know there is incomplete evidence and the motives are not 100% clear yet, but it would be naive to state with confidence that bigotry was not a factor here. If three Jews had been killed do you think anyone would have hesitated to call it a hate crime? At least until more evidence was released?
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On February 13 2015 01:11 SixStrings wrote: Why would this even make (inter) national news?
If every murder in the US was reported in international media, we would get spammed more than once per hour.
Before I get banned, according to wikipedia, there have been 14,827 murders in the USA in 2012. That's like 40 a day. Slightly less than in North Korea, like 10% less, twice as many murders per capita than Syria. Almost five times as many Czech Republic.
So just cool it with the conspiracy theories. This wasn't 'covered up' because of the Muslim targets, it's just too common an occurance to report it.
I think that way of approaching what qualifies as news and doesn't is inherently flawed.
Murders happen all the time, granted. But murders of 3 Muslims (all shot in the head, which indicates that this wasn't just a random occurance on the street... this was planned) at a time and in a place where there is growing resentment of Muslims.
Duke University recently proposed to have a call to Muslim prayer on Friday for 3 minutes (the same way that Church bells go off etc.) to cater to its students and the whole state of North Carolina nearly showed up with pitchforks. Needless to say the idea was scrapped overnight.
Just a reminder of why this issue is sensitive and news worthy.
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On February 13 2015 01:16 DinoMight wrote: This story is already completely gone off CNN.com. It's nowhere to be found on their page.
I find it shocking that there is such a double standard with how Muslims are treated in the media. I know there is incomplete evidence and the motives are not 100% clear yet, but it would be naive to state with confidence that bigotry was not a factor here. If three Jews had been killed do you think anyone would have hesitated to call it a hate crime? At least until more evidence was released?
What are you talking about? Double standards?
Do you even know how many kafirs are killed by Muslims every day? Especially Jews and Christians. Atheists would be just as big a target but for the fact that they don't have a convenient mass-assembly spot.
It's just a matter of saturation, not bias.
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On February 13 2015 01:23 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 01:16 DinoMight wrote: This story is already completely gone off CNN.com. It's nowhere to be found on their page.
I find it shocking that there is such a double standard with how Muslims are treated in the media. I know there is incomplete evidence and the motives are not 100% clear yet, but it would be naive to state with confidence that bigotry was not a factor here. If three Jews had been killed do you think anyone would have hesitated to call it a hate crime? At least until more evidence was released?
What are you talking about? Double standards? Do you even know how many kafirs are killed by Muslims every day? Especially Jews and Christians. Atheists would be just as big a target but for the fact that they don't have a convenient mass-assembly spot. It's just a matter of saturation, not bias.
The double standards of media reporting.
When Muslims kill people from other religions, it's everywhere in the media. It's labeled a Jihad or a hate crime or whatever you want to call it.
When other religions kill Muslims, it's played down or not even covered. Do you really expect me to believe that this guy killed 3 Muslims by shooting them in the head over parking? In North Carolina? In 2015 when anti-Muslim sentiment is the strongest it's ever been?
This is not an excuse for anyone to kill anyone. No one should kill, period.
But here we have 3 students in their early twenties / late teens killed, probably because the killer is a huge bigot, and it gets basically no media coverage.
Or when not too long ago a Somali man was targeted and run over by a car in Georgia (intentionally) because of his faith. Or all the attacks on mosques across the southern states that never get reported.
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On February 13 2015 01:26 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 01:23 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 01:16 DinoMight wrote: This story is already completely gone off CNN.com. It's nowhere to be found on their page.
I find it shocking that there is such a double standard with how Muslims are treated in the media. I know there is incomplete evidence and the motives are not 100% clear yet, but it would be naive to state with confidence that bigotry was not a factor here. If three Jews had been killed do you think anyone would have hesitated to call it a hate crime? At least until more evidence was released?
What are you talking about? Double standards? Do you even know how many kafirs are killed by Muslims every day? Especially Jews and Christians. Atheists would be just as big a target but for the fact that they don't have a convenient mass-assembly spot. It's just a matter of saturation, not bias. The double standards of media reporting. When Muslims kill people from other religions, it's everywhere in the media. It's labeled a Jihad or a hate crime or whatever you want to call it. When other religions kill Muslims, it's played down or not even covered. Do you really expect me to believe that this guy killed 3 Muslims by shooting them in the head over parking? In North Carolina? In 2015 when anti-Muslim sentiment is the strongest it's ever been?
Sorry, I should probably not post in these threads, I just don't know enough about the situation in the US.
I just assumed the Muslim mollycoddling that happens all over the shop in Europe would happen in the US as well.
Christians and atheists who commit violent crimes against Muslims are obviously no better than the ideology they try to fight.
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On February 13 2015 01:31 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 01:26 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 01:23 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 01:16 DinoMight wrote: This story is already completely gone off CNN.com. It's nowhere to be found on their page.
I find it shocking that there is such a double standard with how Muslims are treated in the media. I know there is incomplete evidence and the motives are not 100% clear yet, but it would be naive to state with confidence that bigotry was not a factor here. If three Jews had been killed do you think anyone would have hesitated to call it a hate crime? At least until more evidence was released?
What are you talking about? Double standards? Do you even know how many kafirs are killed by Muslims every day? Especially Jews and Christians. Atheists would be just as big a target but for the fact that they don't have a convenient mass-assembly spot. It's just a matter of saturation, not bias. The double standards of media reporting. When Muslims kill people from other religions, it's everywhere in the media. It's labeled a Jihad or a hate crime or whatever you want to call it. When other religions kill Muslims, it's played down or not even covered. Do you really expect me to believe that this guy killed 3 Muslims by shooting them in the head over parking? In North Carolina? In 2015 when anti-Muslim sentiment is the strongest it's ever been? Sorry, I should probably not post in these threads, I just don't know enough about the situation in the US. I just assumed the Muslim mollycoddling that happens all over the shop in Europe would happen in the US as well. Christians and atheists who commit violent crimes against Muslims are obviously no better than the ideology they try to fight.
You are correct, in the US there is a lot of it.
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On February 13 2015 01:37 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 01:31 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 01:26 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 01:23 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 01:16 DinoMight wrote: This story is already completely gone off CNN.com. It's nowhere to be found on their page.
I find it shocking that there is such a double standard with how Muslims are treated in the media. I know there is incomplete evidence and the motives are not 100% clear yet, but it would be naive to state with confidence that bigotry was not a factor here. If three Jews had been killed do you think anyone would have hesitated to call it a hate crime? At least until more evidence was released?
What are you talking about? Double standards? Do you even know how many kafirs are killed by Muslims every day? Especially Jews and Christians. Atheists would be just as big a target but for the fact that they don't have a convenient mass-assembly spot. It's just a matter of saturation, not bias. The double standards of media reporting. When Muslims kill people from other religions, it's everywhere in the media. It's labeled a Jihad or a hate crime or whatever you want to call it. When other religions kill Muslims, it's played down or not even covered. Do you really expect me to believe that this guy killed 3 Muslims by shooting them in the head over parking? In North Carolina? In 2015 when anti-Muslim sentiment is the strongest it's ever been? Sorry, I should probably not post in these threads, I just don't know enough about the situation in the US. I just assumed the Muslim mollycoddling that happens all over the shop in Europe would happen in the US as well. Christians and atheists who commit violent crimes against Muslims are obviously no better than the ideology they try to fight. You are correct, in the US there is a lot of it.
In the US there is a lot of Muslim mollycoddling??
I hope this is a misunderstanding. Where in the US do you live exactly. I have Muslim relatives who live in South Carolina and I can tell you no one is "protective" of them...
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Kind of ironic considering that Muslims in USA tend to be well off, middle class, well integrated, moderate people, whilst the ones in Europe tend to be poor, insular and extreme.
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Partly because there is really isn't a decisive clash of cultures like in Europe etc. Americanization tends to happen rather fast and by the time a second generation of family, or even parts of the first generation of an immigrant family grows up, they see themselves and are seen as Americans and though they might tend to speak the language of their parents, and follow customs they don't tend to show it outside in public and maybe even in private either.
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On February 13 2015 02:06 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Partly because there is really isn't a decisive clash of cultures like in Europe etc. Americanization tends to happen rather fast and by the time a second generation of family, or even parts of the first generation of an immigrant family grows up, they see themselves and are seen as Americans and though they might tend to speak the language of their parents, and follow customs they don't tend to show it outside in public and maybe even in private either.
This is very true.
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On February 13 2015 02:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Kind of ironic considering that Muslims in USA tend to be well off, middle class, well integrated, moderate people, whilst the ones in Europe tend to be poor, insular and extreme.
That's not always the case. In Germany, a lot of the Turks are rather well off and well integrated.
It's the real Muslims, i. e. those who refuse to integrate with kafirs and insist on Sharia law, who are having trouble.
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I'm just waiting for the hashtags from muslims supporting white people/christians and making them not feel scared of violent attacks by muslims in the wake of one white guy being an idiot.
Any day now.
edit: Oh, just read that he was an atheist, well...
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Perp. sounds like an asshole. Whatever his reasons, he'll get what he deserves. Pretty sure his calendar will be marked "prison" for the rest of his life, anyway, so maybe the truth will come out in an interview or during the trial. Let him rot in prison; he won't have friends on the inside that aren't skinheads or some shit like that. He'll probably end up with a shiv in the liver before he dies of old age. No point in worrying about his motive, other than to prove his guilt of 3x first degree murder. Too much attention to the case might draw other crazies out of the woodwork.
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On February 13 2015 02:27 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 02:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Kind of ironic considering that Muslims in USA tend to be well off, middle class, well integrated, moderate people, whilst the ones in Europe tend to be poor, insular and extreme. That's not always the case. In Germany, a lot of the Turks are rather well off and well integrated. It's the real Muslims, i. e. those who refuse to integrate with kafirs and insist on Sharia law, who are having trouble.
I'm a real Muslim. I'm an American citizen, I pay my taxes, I obey the laws of my governments, all my friends are "Kafirs" and I don't insist on any kind of law other than the law of the land. I have a high paying banking job and am doing just fine in life.
You have a very unfortunate understanding of Islam, my friend.
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On February 13 2015 02:27 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 02:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Kind of ironic considering that Muslims in USA tend to be well off, middle class, well integrated, moderate people, whilst the ones in Europe tend to be poor, insular and extreme. That's not always the case. In Germany, a lot of the Turks are rather well off and well integrated. It's the real Muslims, i. e. those who refuse to integrate with kafirs and insist on Sharia law, who are having trouble. Good that you have defined who the real Muslims are , I guess we can go home now.
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On February 13 2015 02:54 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 02:27 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Kind of ironic considering that Muslims in USA tend to be well off, middle class, well integrated, moderate people, whilst the ones in Europe tend to be poor, insular and extreme. That's not always the case. In Germany, a lot of the Turks are rather well off and well integrated. It's the real Muslims, i. e. those who refuse to integrate with kafirs and insist on Sharia law, who are having trouble. I'm a real Muslim. I'm an American citizen, I pay my taxes, I obey the laws of my governments, all my friends are "Kafirs" and I don't insist on any kind of law other than the law of the land. I have a high paying banking job and am doing just fine in life. You have a very unfortunate understanding of Islam, my friend.
I'm sure your case is very common for many millions of Muslims around the world and if every religious person behaved in such a fashion, we'd all be better for it.
Too bad it's exactly the opposite of what your scripture teaches.
I meant 'real Muslim' as in 'living according to scripture'.
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On February 13 2015 03:07 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 02:54 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 02:27 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Kind of ironic considering that Muslims in USA tend to be well off, middle class, well integrated, moderate people, whilst the ones in Europe tend to be poor, insular and extreme. That's not always the case. In Germany, a lot of the Turks are rather well off and well integrated. It's the real Muslims, i. e. those who refuse to integrate with kafirs and insist on Sharia law, who are having trouble. I'm a real Muslim. I'm an American citizen, I pay my taxes, I obey the laws of my governments, all my friends are "Kafirs" and I don't insist on any kind of law other than the law of the land. I have a high paying banking job and am doing just fine in life. You have a very unfortunate understanding of Islam, my friend. I'm sure your case is very common for many millions of Muslims around the world and if every religious person behaved in such a fashion, we'd all be better for it. Too bad it's exactly the opposite of what your scripture teaches. I meant 'real Muslim' as in 'living according to scripture'.
You know there are different sects to your whole 'real muslims' thinking right? What about 'real Christians' would they be Protestants, Catholics, Anglicans... Or..? I'm also curious if you bend the rules at all in your day to day life. I know I do but I don't consider myself any less of a law abiding citizen because I j-walk and smoke the occasional joint. I guess we all have our own fucked up ideas though am I right?
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To me it sounds like that Atheist was just as bad as any religious zealot.
I've been Atheist for since as young as I can remember. Killing people is just something I tend to not agree with, regardless if they believe in a god or not.
Can't we all just get along and play video games together?
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On February 13 2015 03:28 GertHeart wrote: To me it sounds like that Atheist was just as bad as any religious zealot.
I've been Atheist for since as young as I can remember. Killing people is just something I tend to not agree with, regardless if they believe in a god or not.
Can't we all just get along and play video games together?
Do we get to brutally destroy each other in the video games?
If so i'm all for that.
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On February 13 2015 03:07 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 02:54 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 02:27 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Kind of ironic considering that Muslims in USA tend to be well off, middle class, well integrated, moderate people, whilst the ones in Europe tend to be poor, insular and extreme. That's not always the case. In Germany, a lot of the Turks are rather well off and well integrated. It's the real Muslims, i. e. those who refuse to integrate with kafirs and insist on Sharia law, who are having trouble. I'm a real Muslim. I'm an American citizen, I pay my taxes, I obey the laws of my governments, all my friends are "Kafirs" and I don't insist on any kind of law other than the law of the land. I have a high paying banking job and am doing just fine in life. You have a very unfortunate understanding of Islam, my friend. I'm sure your case is very common for many millions of Muslims around the world and if every religious person behaved in such a fashion, we'd all be better for it. Too bad it's exactly the opposite of what your scripture teaches. I meant 'real Muslim' as in 'living according to scripture'. I never knew you were a scholar of Islam. Under which school of theology did you study, and what are your principles of exegesis?
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On February 13 2015 03:37 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 03:07 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:54 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 02:27 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Kind of ironic considering that Muslims in USA tend to be well off, middle class, well integrated, moderate people, whilst the ones in Europe tend to be poor, insular and extreme. That's not always the case. In Germany, a lot of the Turks are rather well off and well integrated. It's the real Muslims, i. e. those who refuse to integrate with kafirs and insist on Sharia law, who are having trouble. I'm a real Muslim. I'm an American citizen, I pay my taxes, I obey the laws of my governments, all my friends are "Kafirs" and I don't insist on any kind of law other than the law of the land. I have a high paying banking job and am doing just fine in life. You have a very unfortunate understanding of Islam, my friend. I'm sure your case is very common for many millions of Muslims around the world and if every religious person behaved in such a fashion, we'd all be better for it. Too bad it's exactly the opposite of what your scripture teaches. I meant 'real Muslim' as in 'living according to scripture'. I never knew you were a scholar of Islam. Under which school of theology did you study, and what are your principles of exegesis?
Please, won't you enlighten me? Do teach me the mental gymnastics I have to do to interpret the misadventures of the warmongering, pillaging child-rapist, whose highest ambition it is to convert, and kill those he can't convert, as the 'religion of piece'.
When you're done, I'll tell you how you can interpret the story of Lot and his daughters as a tale of two pro-active feminists.
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There are millions who call themselves Muslim. They all think they are the real Muslims. That's actually kinda the problem with what's happening today.
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On February 13 2015 02:54 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 02:27 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Kind of ironic considering that Muslims in USA tend to be well off, middle class, well integrated, moderate people, whilst the ones in Europe tend to be poor, insular and extreme. That's not always the case. In Germany, a lot of the Turks are rather well off and well integrated. It's the real Muslims, i. e. those who refuse to integrate with kafirs and insist on Sharia law, who are having trouble. I'm a real Muslim. I'm an American citizen, I pay my taxes, I obey the laws of my governments, all my friends are "Kafirs" and I don't insist on any kind of law other than the law of the land. I have a high paying banking job and am doing just fine in life. You have a very unfortunate understanding of Islam, my friend. You are a real banker? How disgusting, his way of thinking are foreign to us and they hate you and seek to destroy your American freedom and democracy.
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On February 13 2015 03:47 Dangermousecatdog wrote: There are millions who call themselves Muslim. They all think they are the real Muslims. That's actually kinda the problem with what's happening today.
Actually there are 1.6 billion Muslims on earth. It's the second largest religion after Christianity. There are 162 million muslims living in India alone (double Germany's population). India, the world's largest democracy.
If every Muslim or if "all real" Muslims were like this guy described, the world would be a terrible terrible place.
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On February 13 2015 03:47 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 03:37 koreasilver wrote:On February 13 2015 03:07 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:54 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 02:27 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Kind of ironic considering that Muslims in USA tend to be well off, middle class, well integrated, moderate people, whilst the ones in Europe tend to be poor, insular and extreme. That's not always the case. In Germany, a lot of the Turks are rather well off and well integrated. It's the real Muslims, i. e. those who refuse to integrate with kafirs and insist on Sharia law, who are having trouble. I'm a real Muslim. I'm an American citizen, I pay my taxes, I obey the laws of my governments, all my friends are "Kafirs" and I don't insist on any kind of law other than the law of the land. I have a high paying banking job and am doing just fine in life. You have a very unfortunate understanding of Islam, my friend. I'm sure your case is very common for many millions of Muslims around the world and if every religious person behaved in such a fashion, we'd all be better for it. Too bad it's exactly the opposite of what your scripture teaches. I meant 'real Muslim' as in 'living according to scripture'. I never knew you were a scholar of Islam. Under which school of theology did you study, and what are your principles of exegesis? Please, won't you enlighten me? Do teach me the mental gymnastics I have to do to interpret the misadventures of the warmongering, pillaging child-rapist, whose highest ambition it is to convert, and kill those he can't convert, as the 'religion of piece'. When you're done, I'll tell you how you can interpret the story of Lot and his daughters as a tale of two pro-active feminists.
Your problem is that you take the most radical, fanatical, extreme people and assume that 1.6 billion of us all think the same way.
It would be like saying all 2 billion Christians are backwards hicks who demonstrate at soldiers' funerals and hate gays.
It's so easy to say "real Muslims who practice sharia law etc. etc." and refer to scripture. But the vast majority of Muslims do not follow scripture to the letter,the same exact way that most Christians and Jews do not follow their scripture to the letter.
Do you mean to tell me that all real Christians abstain from sex until marriage? That they never have impure thoughts? Do you want to tell me that no real Jews eat bacon?
Please...
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On February 13 2015 04:02 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 03:47 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 03:37 koreasilver wrote:On February 13 2015 03:07 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:54 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 02:27 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Kind of ironic considering that Muslims in USA tend to be well off, middle class, well integrated, moderate people, whilst the ones in Europe tend to be poor, insular and extreme. That's not always the case. In Germany, a lot of the Turks are rather well off and well integrated. It's the real Muslims, i. e. those who refuse to integrate with kafirs and insist on Sharia law, who are having trouble. I'm a real Muslim. I'm an American citizen, I pay my taxes, I obey the laws of my governments, all my friends are "Kafirs" and I don't insist on any kind of law other than the law of the land. I have a high paying banking job and am doing just fine in life. You have a very unfortunate understanding of Islam, my friend. I'm sure your case is very common for many millions of Muslims around the world and if every religious person behaved in such a fashion, we'd all be better for it. Too bad it's exactly the opposite of what your scripture teaches. I meant 'real Muslim' as in 'living according to scripture'. I never knew you were a scholar of Islam. Under which school of theology did you study, and what are your principles of exegesis? Please, won't you enlighten me? Do teach me the mental gymnastics I have to do to interpret the misadventures of the warmongering, pillaging child-rapist, whose highest ambition it is to convert, and kill those he can't convert, as the 'religion of piece'. When you're done, I'll tell you how you can interpret the story of Lot and his daughters as a tale of two pro-active feminists. Your problem is that you take the most radical, fanatical, extreme people and assume that 1.6 billion of us all think the same way. It would be like saying all 2 billion Christians are backwards hicks who demonstrate at soldiers' funerals and hate gays. It's so easy to say "real Muslims who practice sharia law etc. etc." and refer to scripture. But the vast majority of Muslims do not follow scripture to the letter,the same exact way that most Christians and Jews do not follow their scripture to the letter. Do you mean to tell me that all real Christians abstain from sex until marriage? That they never have impure thoughts? Do you want to tell me that no real Jews eat bacon? Please...
No, that's my point exactly. What's the common denominator of all Muslims? Or of all Christians? Or Jews? Scripture. Holy books.
Except that a large majority of religious people cherrypick the things that are nice about scripture. Well, great, but then it's not a holy book. They're just having intellectual input, like reading Kant or Nietzsche. And then reading scripture doesn't make them any more religious than reading any other piece of literature does.
I can read the bible, and I can say: 'Well, do unto others, that's a good idea, I'll subscribe to that.' Because I decide it's a good idea. That doesn't make me Christian, I cherrypicked one nice aspect about the New Testament.
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On February 13 2015 04:04 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 04:02 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 03:47 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 03:37 koreasilver wrote:On February 13 2015 03:07 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:54 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 02:27 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Kind of ironic considering that Muslims in USA tend to be well off, middle class, well integrated, moderate people, whilst the ones in Europe tend to be poor, insular and extreme. That's not always the case. In Germany, a lot of the Turks are rather well off and well integrated. It's the real Muslims, i. e. those who refuse to integrate with kafirs and insist on Sharia law, who are having trouble. I'm a real Muslim. I'm an American citizen, I pay my taxes, I obey the laws of my governments, all my friends are "Kafirs" and I don't insist on any kind of law other than the law of the land. I have a high paying banking job and am doing just fine in life. You have a very unfortunate understanding of Islam, my friend. I'm sure your case is very common for many millions of Muslims around the world and if every religious person behaved in such a fashion, we'd all be better for it. Too bad it's exactly the opposite of what your scripture teaches. I meant 'real Muslim' as in 'living according to scripture'. I never knew you were a scholar of Islam. Under which school of theology did you study, and what are your principles of exegesis? Please, won't you enlighten me? Do teach me the mental gymnastics I have to do to interpret the misadventures of the warmongering, pillaging child-rapist, whose highest ambition it is to convert, and kill those he can't convert, as the 'religion of piece'. When you're done, I'll tell you how you can interpret the story of Lot and his daughters as a tale of two pro-active feminists. Your problem is that you take the most radical, fanatical, extreme people and assume that 1.6 billion of us all think the same way. It would be like saying all 2 billion Christians are backwards hicks who demonstrate at soldiers' funerals and hate gays. It's so easy to say "real Muslims who practice sharia law etc. etc." and refer to scripture. But the vast majority of Muslims do not follow scripture to the letter,the same exact way that most Christians and Jews do not follow their scripture to the letter. Do you mean to tell me that all real Christians abstain from sex until marriage? That they never have impure thoughts? Do you want to tell me that no real Jews eat bacon? Please... No, that's my point exactly. What's the common denominator of all Muslims? Or of all Christians? Or Jews? Scripture. Holy books. Except that a large majority of religious people cherrypick the things that are nice about scripture. Well, great, but then it's not a holy book. They're just having intellectual input, like reading Kant or Nietzsche. And then reading scripture doesn't make them any more religious than reading any other piece of literature does. I can read the bible, and I can say: 'Well, do unto others, that's a good idea, I'll subscribe to that.' Because I decide it's a good idea. That doesn't make me Christian, I cherrypicked one nice aspect about the New Testament.
Yes, but we live in an age where you can consider yourself a Christian even if you don't follow scripture 100%. Same for Muslims and all other religions. It's actually for the best. We're slowly, over time, dropping the shitty parts of the religion and keeping the good ones.
So your point about all "real" Muslims being terrible people is moot because one could argue that all "real" Christians are terrible people as well.
This is completely aside from the fact that you have pretty much zero understanding of how Islam actually works.
War mongering, raping, and pillaging is actually closer to what the Christians did during the Crusades. But those people were a bunch of ignorant fucks led by fanatical, extreme leaders. This is why we don't say "all Christians are like this."
Now if you would kindly give 1.59999 billion Muslims the same benefit of the doubt that would be great.
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Feel like those shootings happens way too often.
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On February 13 2015 04:04 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 04:02 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 03:47 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 03:37 koreasilver wrote:On February 13 2015 03:07 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:54 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 02:27 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Kind of ironic considering that Muslims in USA tend to be well off, middle class, well integrated, moderate people, whilst the ones in Europe tend to be poor, insular and extreme. That's not always the case. In Germany, a lot of the Turks are rather well off and well integrated. It's the real Muslims, i. e. those who refuse to integrate with kafirs and insist on Sharia law, who are having trouble. I'm a real Muslim. I'm an American citizen, I pay my taxes, I obey the laws of my governments, all my friends are "Kafirs" and I don't insist on any kind of law other than the law of the land. I have a high paying banking job and am doing just fine in life. You have a very unfortunate understanding of Islam, my friend. I'm sure your case is very common for many millions of Muslims around the world and if every religious person behaved in such a fashion, we'd all be better for it. Too bad it's exactly the opposite of what your scripture teaches. I meant 'real Muslim' as in 'living according to scripture'. I never knew you were a scholar of Islam. Under which school of theology did you study, and what are your principles of exegesis? Please, won't you enlighten me? Do teach me the mental gymnastics I have to do to interpret the misadventures of the warmongering, pillaging child-rapist, whose highest ambition it is to convert, and kill those he can't convert, as the 'religion of piece'. When you're done, I'll tell you how you can interpret the story of Lot and his daughters as a tale of two pro-active feminists. Your problem is that you take the most radical, fanatical, extreme people and assume that 1.6 billion of us all think the same way. It would be like saying all 2 billion Christians are backwards hicks who demonstrate at soldiers' funerals and hate gays. It's so easy to say "real Muslims who practice sharia law etc. etc." and refer to scripture. But the vast majority of Muslims do not follow scripture to the letter,the same exact way that most Christians and Jews do not follow their scripture to the letter. Do you mean to tell me that all real Christians abstain from sex until marriage? That they never have impure thoughts? Do you want to tell me that no real Jews eat bacon? Please... No, that's my point exactly. What's the common denominator of all Muslims? Or of all Christians? Or Jews? Scripture. Holy books. Except that a large majority of religious people cherrypick the things that are nice about scripture. Well, great, but then it's not a holy book. They're just having intellectual input, like reading Kant or Nietzsche. And then reading scripture doesn't make them any more religious than reading any other piece of literature does. I can read the bible, and I can say: 'Well, do unto others, that's a good idea, I'll subscribe to that.' Because I decide it's a good idea. That doesn't make me Christian, I cherrypicked one nice aspect about the New Testament.
But the people you reference (extremists) most don't even follow the scripture to the letter anyway. Many Christians in the Syrian/Iraqi conflict couldn't even pay Jizya (tax) to stay in Raqqa. So does that make the ISIS dudes non Muslim? No one follows the scriptures perfectly, not even the radicals.
edit:spelling edit: and Dino made the same point basically.. noooooo
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On February 13 2015 04:22 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 04:04 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 04:02 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 03:47 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 03:37 koreasilver wrote:On February 13 2015 03:07 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:54 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 02:27 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Kind of ironic considering that Muslims in USA tend to be well off, middle class, well integrated, moderate people, whilst the ones in Europe tend to be poor, insular and extreme. That's not always the case. In Germany, a lot of the Turks are rather well off and well integrated. It's the real Muslims, i. e. those who refuse to integrate with kafirs and insist on Sharia law, who are having trouble. I'm a real Muslim. I'm an American citizen, I pay my taxes, I obey the laws of my governments, all my friends are "Kafirs" and I don't insist on any kind of law other than the law of the land. I have a high paying banking job and am doing just fine in life. You have a very unfortunate understanding of Islam, my friend. I'm sure your case is very common for many millions of Muslims around the world and if every religious person behaved in such a fashion, we'd all be better for it. Too bad it's exactly the opposite of what your scripture teaches. I meant 'real Muslim' as in 'living according to scripture'. I never knew you were a scholar of Islam. Under which school of theology did you study, and what are your principles of exegesis? Please, won't you enlighten me? Do teach me the mental gymnastics I have to do to interpret the misadventures of the warmongering, pillaging child-rapist, whose highest ambition it is to convert, and kill those he can't convert, as the 'religion of piece'. When you're done, I'll tell you how you can interpret the story of Lot and his daughters as a tale of two pro-active feminists. Your problem is that you take the most radical, fanatical, extreme people and assume that 1.6 billion of us all think the same way. It would be like saying all 2 billion Christians are backwards hicks who demonstrate at soldiers' funerals and hate gays. It's so easy to say "real Muslims who practice sharia law etc. etc." and refer to scripture. But the vast majority of Muslims do not follow scripture to the letter,the same exact way that most Christians and Jews do not follow their scripture to the letter. Do you mean to tell me that all real Christians abstain from sex until marriage? That they never have impure thoughts? Do you want to tell me that no real Jews eat bacon? Please... No, that's my point exactly. What's the common denominator of all Muslims? Or of all Christians? Or Jews? Scripture. Holy books. Except that a large majority of religious people cherrypick the things that are nice about scripture. Well, great, but then it's not a holy book. They're just having intellectual input, like reading Kant or Nietzsche. And then reading scripture doesn't make them any more religious than reading any other piece of literature does. I can read the bible, and I can say: 'Well, do unto others, that's a good idea, I'll subscribe to that.' Because I decide it's a good idea. That doesn't make me Christian, I cherrypicked one nice aspect about the New Testament. So your point about all "real" Muslims being terrible people is moot because one could argue that all "real" Christians are terrible people as well.
That doesn't make my point moot, that IS my point. If people were true to their faith, and I do mean Christians just as much as Muslims, the world would be a terrible place. That's because the bible is a horrid guideline, as much as the Qu'ran. But if you don't live by either, why would you call yourself a Muslim / Christian? Because you cherrypick the nice things about it?
That makes you enlightened, not religious.
I'll stop replying here now, because I really don't want to make anyone think I condone this terrible incident and I know I'm getting perilously close to that.
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On February 13 2015 04:34 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 04:22 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 04:04 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 04:02 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 03:47 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 03:37 koreasilver wrote:On February 13 2015 03:07 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:54 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 02:27 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Kind of ironic considering that Muslims in USA tend to be well off, middle class, well integrated, moderate people, whilst the ones in Europe tend to be poor, insular and extreme. That's not always the case. In Germany, a lot of the Turks are rather well off and well integrated. It's the real Muslims, i. e. those who refuse to integrate with kafirs and insist on Sharia law, who are having trouble. I'm a real Muslim. I'm an American citizen, I pay my taxes, I obey the laws of my governments, all my friends are "Kafirs" and I don't insist on any kind of law other than the law of the land. I have a high paying banking job and am doing just fine in life. You have a very unfortunate understanding of Islam, my friend. I'm sure your case is very common for many millions of Muslims around the world and if every religious person behaved in such a fashion, we'd all be better for it. Too bad it's exactly the opposite of what your scripture teaches. I meant 'real Muslim' as in 'living according to scripture'. I never knew you were a scholar of Islam. Under which school of theology did you study, and what are your principles of exegesis? Please, won't you enlighten me? Do teach me the mental gymnastics I have to do to interpret the misadventures of the warmongering, pillaging child-rapist, whose highest ambition it is to convert, and kill those he can't convert, as the 'religion of piece'. When you're done, I'll tell you how you can interpret the story of Lot and his daughters as a tale of two pro-active feminists. Your problem is that you take the most radical, fanatical, extreme people and assume that 1.6 billion of us all think the same way. It would be like saying all 2 billion Christians are backwards hicks who demonstrate at soldiers' funerals and hate gays. It's so easy to say "real Muslims who practice sharia law etc. etc." and refer to scripture. But the vast majority of Muslims do not follow scripture to the letter,the same exact way that most Christians and Jews do not follow their scripture to the letter. Do you mean to tell me that all real Christians abstain from sex until marriage? That they never have impure thoughts? Do you want to tell me that no real Jews eat bacon? Please... No, that's my point exactly. What's the common denominator of all Muslims? Or of all Christians? Or Jews? Scripture. Holy books. Except that a large majority of religious people cherrypick the things that are nice about scripture. Well, great, but then it's not a holy book. They're just having intellectual input, like reading Kant or Nietzsche. And then reading scripture doesn't make them any more religious than reading any other piece of literature does. I can read the bible, and I can say: 'Well, do unto others, that's a good idea, I'll subscribe to that.' Because I decide it's a good idea. That doesn't make me Christian, I cherrypicked one nice aspect about the New Testament. So your point about all "real" Muslims being terrible people is moot because one could argue that all "real" Christians are terrible people as well. That doesn't make my point moot, that IS my point. If people were true to their faith, and I do mean Christians just as much as Muslims, the world would be a terrible place. That's because the bible is a horrid guideline, as much as the Qu'ran. But if you don't live by either, why would you call yourself a Muslim / Christian? Because you cherrypick the nice things about it? That makes you enlightened, not religious. I'll stop replying here now, because I really don't want to make anyone think I condone this terrible incident and I know I'm getting perilously close to that. Well I for one didn't get the idea that you were condoning the attack at all. Just that you're trying to make a somewhat misguided point about what/who a Muslim is. Speaking as someone who isn't a Muslim as well, I think we should let people decide who they are for themselves, and not label them as something we think they are. No one should be able to tell you who/what you are, and you shouldn't really be able to do the same to others in such a broad and general sense as you've tried to do.
Just trying to help. -The Enlightened One (TEO)
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On February 13 2015 03:47 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 03:37 koreasilver wrote:On February 13 2015 03:07 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:54 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 02:27 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Kind of ironic considering that Muslims in USA tend to be well off, middle class, well integrated, moderate people, whilst the ones in Europe tend to be poor, insular and extreme. That's not always the case. In Germany, a lot of the Turks are rather well off and well integrated. It's the real Muslims, i. e. those who refuse to integrate with kafirs and insist on Sharia law, who are having trouble. I'm a real Muslim. I'm an American citizen, I pay my taxes, I obey the laws of my governments, all my friends are "Kafirs" and I don't insist on any kind of law other than the law of the land. I have a high paying banking job and am doing just fine in life. You have a very unfortunate understanding of Islam, my friend. I'm sure your case is very common for many millions of Muslims around the world and if every religious person behaved in such a fashion, we'd all be better for it. Too bad it's exactly the opposite of what your scripture teaches. I meant 'real Muslim' as in 'living according to scripture'. I never knew you were a scholar of Islam. Under which school of theology did you study, and what are your principles of exegesis? Please, won't you enlighten me? Do teach me the mental gymnastics I have to do to interpret the misadventures of the warmongering, pillaging child-rapist, whose highest ambition it is to convert, and kill those he can't convert, as the 'religion of piece'. When you're done, I'll tell you how you can interpret the story of Lot and his daughters as a tale of two pro-active feminists. Perhaps on your very next breath, you would attempt to claim that constitutional law requires no interpretation, that its meaning is "obvious" insofar as the literal reading would be clear as day - that the entire field of jurisprudence and the execution of law as such requires no authority, no procedure, and no contextual evaluation. Perhaps then you could proudly take your seat next to the constitutional literalists of America and expound your wisdom of the "True American" that "lives according to the constitution" as if the reading of the law only has one interpretation, only one reading; that there are no ambiguities, that the interpretation of the law doesn't have its own tradition and its own reasons, that it is not an utterly abstract object and that surely one would give deference to a scholars of the constitution rather than the rambling layman, whether he be of the left, a liberal, a libertarian, or a traditionalist, and surely one would also give the same kind of deference to the experts of any other science. But no, of course, you would know better because - "reasons"?
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Neighbors of these people have told the media that parking disputes are common and that this guy Hicks was basically an asshole who was always getting into angry arguments with neighbors over dumb stuff.
I don't think hating Muslims was the main factor - guy seems like he was a bomb waiting to go off eventually and inevitably. Angry and hostile internet atheism is probably something he was drawn to because he was already a rage-filled asshole, it probably didn't turn him into one. These 3 had also apparently been arguing with him over parking for some time. Wrap it all up together and their being Muslim almost certainly had something to do with his decision to go ahead and kill them, but I think if they were evangelical Christians he probably would have gone off the same way and shot them. He seems like a very equal-opportunity hater when it comes to religions.
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i discovered i have a crazy neighbour like this, he didn't like me putting the bins on the other side of the road so he chucked them over our garden , raged at me when i came out and said hes gonna beat me up, so i said fucking come on and grabbed the knife i had nearby (i was at my house front door), then he said hes gonna get a weapon and come back..... fucking animals
he shouldnt have caught me between dota games , would have gotten stabbed (well i probably would have gotten stabbed)
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On February 13 2015 03:54 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 03:47 Dangermousecatdog wrote: There are millions who call themselves Muslim. They all think they are the real Muslims. That's actually kinda the problem with what's happening today. Actually there are 1.6 billion Muslims on earth. It's the second largest religion after Christianity. There are 162 million muslims living in India alone (double Germany's population). India, the world's largest democracy. If every Muslim or if "all real" Muslims were like this guy described, the world would be a terrible terrible place. Well, the world isn't that beautiful, actually.
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I honestly believe most people who say they are Christian or Muslim are Theists and more of them are Atheist just don't say it publicly. It's weird how Even though they say in this country of America most people are Christian, I don't meet many of them?
I honestly think most of these stats are off when people say they are or aren't of a certain type. Same goes for Muslim and not. I believe Atheism is probably the most common thing that people are in the world.
I've met plenty of people who are "Muslim" because they have to be rather than really are.
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I believe Atheism is probably the most common thing that people are in the world.
It isn't. It's the least actually.
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i think humans are naturally "believers", they'll believe whatever they're brought up with study of belief must be a fantastic topic
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So, SixStrings just single-handedly transformed a thread about three muslims getting killed into another thread of attacking/defending Islam. But don't worry, that's not trolling or anything, it's a logical stream of thought. For example, last time I saw a skater get hit by a car, the first thing that came to my mind was how skaters are often tagging the walls of the city and being a general annoyance, so that's what I said to everyone at the scene.
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The discussion more idiotic than a discussion heavily influenced by the likes of Dawkins, Harris, and Hitchens is a discussion of what makes a "true" Muslim. Double idiotic if it is non-Muslims trying to do it.
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On February 13 2015 04:34 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 04:22 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 04:04 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 04:02 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 03:47 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 03:37 koreasilver wrote:On February 13 2015 03:07 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:54 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 02:27 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Kind of ironic considering that Muslims in USA tend to be well off, middle class, well integrated, moderate people, whilst the ones in Europe tend to be poor, insular and extreme. That's not always the case. In Germany, a lot of the Turks are rather well off and well integrated. It's the real Muslims, i. e. those who refuse to integrate with kafirs and insist on Sharia law, who are having trouble. I'm a real Muslim. I'm an American citizen, I pay my taxes, I obey the laws of my governments, all my friends are "Kafirs" and I don't insist on any kind of law other than the law of the land. I have a high paying banking job and am doing just fine in life. You have a very unfortunate understanding of Islam, my friend. I'm sure your case is very common for many millions of Muslims around the world and if every religious person behaved in such a fashion, we'd all be better for it. Too bad it's exactly the opposite of what your scripture teaches. I meant 'real Muslim' as in 'living according to scripture'. I never knew you were a scholar of Islam. Under which school of theology did you study, and what are your principles of exegesis? Please, won't you enlighten me? Do teach me the mental gymnastics I have to do to interpret the misadventures of the warmongering, pillaging child-rapist, whose highest ambition it is to convert, and kill those he can't convert, as the 'religion of piece'. When you're done, I'll tell you how you can interpret the story of Lot and his daughters as a tale of two pro-active feminists. Your problem is that you take the most radical, fanatical, extreme people and assume that 1.6 billion of us all think the same way. It would be like saying all 2 billion Christians are backwards hicks who demonstrate at soldiers' funerals and hate gays. It's so easy to say "real Muslims who practice sharia law etc. etc." and refer to scripture. But the vast majority of Muslims do not follow scripture to the letter,the same exact way that most Christians and Jews do not follow their scripture to the letter. Do you mean to tell me that all real Christians abstain from sex until marriage? That they never have impure thoughts? Do you want to tell me that no real Jews eat bacon? Please... No, that's my point exactly. What's the common denominator of all Muslims? Or of all Christians? Or Jews? Scripture. Holy books. Except that a large majority of religious people cherrypick the things that are nice about scripture. Well, great, but then it's not a holy book. They're just having intellectual input, like reading Kant or Nietzsche. And then reading scripture doesn't make them any more religious than reading any other piece of literature does. I can read the bible, and I can say: 'Well, do unto others, that's a good idea, I'll subscribe to that.' Because I decide it's a good idea. That doesn't make me Christian, I cherrypicked one nice aspect about the New Testament. So your point about all "real" Muslims being terrible people is moot because one could argue that all "real" Christians are terrible people as well. That doesn't make my point moot, that IS my point. If people were true to their faith, and I do mean Christians just as much as Muslims, the world would be a terrible place. That's because the bible is a horrid guideline, as much as the Qu'ran. But if you don't live by either, why would you call yourself a Muslim / Christian? Because you cherrypick the nice things about it? That makes you enlightened, not religious. I'll stop replying here now, because I really don't want to make anyone think I condone this terrible incident and I know I'm getting perilously close to that.
What does being true to your faith look like? It's kind of ironic that a lot of anti-theists don't shut up about how much they value rational thought and logic, but when religions apply that to their texts they are condemned as "cherry picking" for not taking it at face value. What a farce. Please tell me, what does a "real christian" look like then? You'll probably tell me that we should stone adulterers, you know, because you haven't read the whole book, and can't apply simple reasoning to john 8: 7.
It's just a convenient way to not challenge their own deep settled beliefs. Its far more comfortable that any moderate, and probably intelligent, religious person is not a "real" follower, therefore they can dismiss what they say as cherry picking. It makes life much more comfortable to rationalize excusing themselves from engaging what so ever with what the large majority of what followers believe, extremists provide the ultimate straw man for anti-theists to cling on to, only arguing in their mind with such extremes.
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On February 13 2015 17:01 UdderChaos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 04:34 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 04:22 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 04:04 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 04:02 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 03:47 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 03:37 koreasilver wrote:On February 13 2015 03:07 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:54 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 02:27 SixStrings wrote: [quote]
That's not always the case. In Germany, a lot of the Turks are rather well off and well integrated.
It's the real Muslims, i. e. those who refuse to integrate with kafirs and insist on Sharia law, who are having trouble. I'm a real Muslim. I'm an American citizen, I pay my taxes, I obey the laws of my governments, all my friends are "Kafirs" and I don't insist on any kind of law other than the law of the land. I have a high paying banking job and am doing just fine in life. You have a very unfortunate understanding of Islam, my friend. I'm sure your case is very common for many millions of Muslims around the world and if every religious person behaved in such a fashion, we'd all be better for it. Too bad it's exactly the opposite of what your scripture teaches. I meant 'real Muslim' as in 'living according to scripture'. I never knew you were a scholar of Islam. Under which school of theology did you study, and what are your principles of exegesis? Please, won't you enlighten me? Do teach me the mental gymnastics I have to do to interpret the misadventures of the warmongering, pillaging child-rapist, whose highest ambition it is to convert, and kill those he can't convert, as the 'religion of piece'. When you're done, I'll tell you how you can interpret the story of Lot and his daughters as a tale of two pro-active feminists. Your problem is that you take the most radical, fanatical, extreme people and assume that 1.6 billion of us all think the same way. It would be like saying all 2 billion Christians are backwards hicks who demonstrate at soldiers' funerals and hate gays. It's so easy to say "real Muslims who practice sharia law etc. etc." and refer to scripture. But the vast majority of Muslims do not follow scripture to the letter,the same exact way that most Christians and Jews do not follow their scripture to the letter. Do you mean to tell me that all real Christians abstain from sex until marriage? That they never have impure thoughts? Do you want to tell me that no real Jews eat bacon? Please... No, that's my point exactly. What's the common denominator of all Muslims? Or of all Christians? Or Jews? Scripture. Holy books. Except that a large majority of religious people cherrypick the things that are nice about scripture. Well, great, but then it's not a holy book. They're just having intellectual input, like reading Kant or Nietzsche. And then reading scripture doesn't make them any more religious than reading any other piece of literature does. I can read the bible, and I can say: 'Well, do unto others, that's a good idea, I'll subscribe to that.' Because I decide it's a good idea. That doesn't make me Christian, I cherrypicked one nice aspect about the New Testament. So your point about all "real" Muslims being terrible people is moot because one could argue that all "real" Christians are terrible people as well. That doesn't make my point moot, that IS my point. If people were true to their faith, and I do mean Christians just as much as Muslims, the world would be a terrible place. That's because the bible is a horrid guideline, as much as the Qu'ran. But if you don't live by either, why would you call yourself a Muslim / Christian? Because you cherrypick the nice things about it? That makes you enlightened, not religious. I'll stop replying here now, because I really don't want to make anyone think I condone this terrible incident and I know I'm getting perilously close to that. What does being true to your faith look like? It's kind of ironic that a lot of anti-theists don't shut up about how much they value rational thought and logic, but when religions apply that to their texts they are condemned as "cherry picking" for not taking it at face value. What a farce. Please tell me, what does a "real christian" look like then? You'll probably tell me that we should stone adulterers, you know, because you haven't read the whole book, and can't apply simple reasoning to john 8: 7. It's just a convenient way to not challenge their own deep settled beliefs. Its far more comfortable that any moderate, and probably intelligent, religious person is not a "real" follower, therefore they can dismiss what they say as cherry picking. It makes life much more comfortable to rationalize excusing themselves from engaging what so ever with what the large majority of what followers believe, extremists provide the ultimate straw man for anti-theists to cling on to, only arguing in their mind with such extremes. He clearly has no idea how religious people actually operate or how the interpretation of religious texts as literal is a modern phenomena. Best to leave him to his stilted characterizations.
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tragic, but all evidence from the investigation points towards him being the quintessential shithead crazy neighbor who snapped. Engaging in violence against a person of another race or religion does not automatically make it into a hate crime. All of his neighbors described him as a psycho who regularly fought with them over neighbor things.
Of course, the media is desperately trying to tie it race since controversy sells a lot better.
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On February 13 2015 23:29 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 17:01 UdderChaos wrote:On February 13 2015 04:34 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 04:22 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 04:04 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 04:02 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 03:47 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 03:37 koreasilver wrote:On February 13 2015 03:07 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:54 DinoMight wrote: [quote]
I'm a real Muslim. I'm an American citizen, I pay my taxes, I obey the laws of my governments, all my friends are "Kafirs" and I don't insist on any kind of law other than the law of the land. I have a high paying banking job and am doing just fine in life.
You have a very unfortunate understanding of Islam, my friend.
I'm sure your case is very common for many millions of Muslims around the world and if every religious person behaved in such a fashion, we'd all be better for it. Too bad it's exactly the opposite of what your scripture teaches. I meant 'real Muslim' as in 'living according to scripture'. I never knew you were a scholar of Islam. Under which school of theology did you study, and what are your principles of exegesis? Please, won't you enlighten me? Do teach me the mental gymnastics I have to do to interpret the misadventures of the warmongering, pillaging child-rapist, whose highest ambition it is to convert, and kill those he can't convert, as the 'religion of piece'. When you're done, I'll tell you how you can interpret the story of Lot and his daughters as a tale of two pro-active feminists. Your problem is that you take the most radical, fanatical, extreme people and assume that 1.6 billion of us all think the same way. It would be like saying all 2 billion Christians are backwards hicks who demonstrate at soldiers' funerals and hate gays. It's so easy to say "real Muslims who practice sharia law etc. etc." and refer to scripture. But the vast majority of Muslims do not follow scripture to the letter,the same exact way that most Christians and Jews do not follow their scripture to the letter. Do you mean to tell me that all real Christians abstain from sex until marriage? That they never have impure thoughts? Do you want to tell me that no real Jews eat bacon? Please... No, that's my point exactly. What's the common denominator of all Muslims? Or of all Christians? Or Jews? Scripture. Holy books. Except that a large majority of religious people cherrypick the things that are nice about scripture. Well, great, but then it's not a holy book. They're just having intellectual input, like reading Kant or Nietzsche. And then reading scripture doesn't make them any more religious than reading any other piece of literature does. I can read the bible, and I can say: 'Well, do unto others, that's a good idea, I'll subscribe to that.' Because I decide it's a good idea. That doesn't make me Christian, I cherrypicked one nice aspect about the New Testament. So your point about all "real" Muslims being terrible people is moot because one could argue that all "real" Christians are terrible people as well. That doesn't make my point moot, that IS my point. If people were true to their faith, and I do mean Christians just as much as Muslims, the world would be a terrible place. That's because the bible is a horrid guideline, as much as the Qu'ran. But if you don't live by either, why would you call yourself a Muslim / Christian? Because you cherrypick the nice things about it? That makes you enlightened, not religious. I'll stop replying here now, because I really don't want to make anyone think I condone this terrible incident and I know I'm getting perilously close to that. What does being true to your faith look like? It's kind of ironic that a lot of anti-theists don't shut up about how much they value rational thought and logic, but when religions apply that to their texts they are condemned as "cherry picking" for not taking it at face value. What a farce. Please tell me, what does a "real christian" look like then? You'll probably tell me that we should stone adulterers, you know, because you haven't read the whole book, and can't apply simple reasoning to john 8: 7. It's just a convenient way to not challenge their own deep settled beliefs. Its far more comfortable that any moderate, and probably intelligent, religious person is not a "real" follower, therefore they can dismiss what they say as cherry picking. It makes life much more comfortable to rationalize excusing themselves from engaging what so ever with what the large majority of what followers believe, extremists provide the ultimate straw man for anti-theists to cling on to, only arguing in their mind with such extremes. He clearly has no idea how religious people actually operate or how the interpretation of religious texts as literal is a modern phenomena. Best to leave him to his stilted characterizations.
In fact the 'literal' argument doesn't really hold weight. For example Mathew 5:39 can only be interpreted one way, if you take the bible literally how can you read that verse and then go and cause harm? They aren't real Christians or interpreting it literally, they are just bad people.
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France9034 Posts
On February 13 2015 04:34 SixStrings wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 04:22 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 04:04 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 04:02 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 03:47 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 03:37 koreasilver wrote:On February 13 2015 03:07 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:54 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 02:27 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 02:00 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Kind of ironic considering that Muslims in USA tend to be well off, middle class, well integrated, moderate people, whilst the ones in Europe tend to be poor, insular and extreme. That's not always the case. In Germany, a lot of the Turks are rather well off and well integrated. It's the real Muslims, i. e. those who refuse to integrate with kafirs and insist on Sharia law, who are having trouble. I'm a real Muslim. I'm an American citizen, I pay my taxes, I obey the laws of my governments, all my friends are "Kafirs" and I don't insist on any kind of law other than the law of the land. I have a high paying banking job and am doing just fine in life. You have a very unfortunate understanding of Islam, my friend. I'm sure your case is very common for many millions of Muslims around the world and if every religious person behaved in such a fashion, we'd all be better for it. Too bad it's exactly the opposite of what your scripture teaches. I meant 'real Muslim' as in 'living according to scripture'. I never knew you were a scholar of Islam. Under which school of theology did you study, and what are your principles of exegesis? Please, won't you enlighten me? Do teach me the mental gymnastics I have to do to interpret the misadventures of the warmongering, pillaging child-rapist, whose highest ambition it is to convert, and kill those he can't convert, as the 'religion of piece'. When you're done, I'll tell you how you can interpret the story of Lot and his daughters as a tale of two pro-active feminists. Your problem is that you take the most radical, fanatical, extreme people and assume that 1.6 billion of us all think the same way. It would be like saying all 2 billion Christians are backwards hicks who demonstrate at soldiers' funerals and hate gays. It's so easy to say "real Muslims who practice sharia law etc. etc." and refer to scripture. But the vast majority of Muslims do not follow scripture to the letter,the same exact way that most Christians and Jews do not follow their scripture to the letter. Do you mean to tell me that all real Christians abstain from sex until marriage? That they never have impure thoughts? Do you want to tell me that no real Jews eat bacon? Please... No, that's my point exactly. What's the common denominator of all Muslims? Or of all Christians? Or Jews? Scripture. Holy books. Except that a large majority of religious people cherrypick the things that are nice about scripture. Well, great, but then it's not a holy book. They're just having intellectual input, like reading Kant or Nietzsche. And then reading scripture doesn't make them any more religious than reading any other piece of literature does. I can read the bible, and I can say: 'Well, do unto others, that's a good idea, I'll subscribe to that.' Because I decide it's a good idea. That doesn't make me Christian, I cherrypicked one nice aspect about the New Testament. So your point about all "real" Muslims being terrible people is moot because one could argue that all "real" Christians are terrible people as well. That doesn't make my point moot, that IS my point. If people were true to their faith, and I do mean Christians just as much as Muslims, the world would be a terrible place. That's because the bible is a horrid guideline, as much as the Qu'ran. But if you don't live by either, why would you call yourself a Muslim / Christian? Because you cherrypick the nice things about it? That makes you enlightened, not religious. I'll stop replying here now, because I really don't want to make anyone think I condone this terrible incident and I know I'm getting perilously close to that.
I think you misunderstood what religion is about. The key word is "interpretation". As religion is (mostly) based on faith, i.e. believe in something/someone, which you can't "prove" exist, there is necessarily some kind of interpretation somewhere. E.g.: Some christians don't believe that the genesis happened exactly the way it's written in the bible, some do. Sometimes inside the same community. They still are christians, they both believe in the same god and in the same book. The former aren't just "enlightened" nor the latter are just "religious".
The world would be a terrible place not if they were all "true to their faith", but rather "if their faith was based on the most extreme interpretation of those books". Which isn't the case, thank god (There aren't 1.6 billion jihadist in the world, nor there is 2.3 billion Anders Behring Breivik or KKK members in the world either...)
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On February 13 2015 23:48 UdderChaos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 23:29 farvacola wrote:On February 13 2015 17:01 UdderChaos wrote:On February 13 2015 04:34 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 04:22 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 04:04 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 04:02 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 03:47 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 03:37 koreasilver wrote:On February 13 2015 03:07 SixStrings wrote: [quote]
I'm sure your case is very common for many millions of Muslims around the world and if every religious person behaved in such a fashion, we'd all be better for it.
Too bad it's exactly the opposite of what your scripture teaches.
I meant 'real Muslim' as in 'living according to scripture'.
I never knew you were a scholar of Islam. Under which school of theology did you study, and what are your principles of exegesis? Please, won't you enlighten me? Do teach me the mental gymnastics I have to do to interpret the misadventures of the warmongering, pillaging child-rapist, whose highest ambition it is to convert, and kill those he can't convert, as the 'religion of piece'. When you're done, I'll tell you how you can interpret the story of Lot and his daughters as a tale of two pro-active feminists. Your problem is that you take the most radical, fanatical, extreme people and assume that 1.6 billion of us all think the same way. It would be like saying all 2 billion Christians are backwards hicks who demonstrate at soldiers' funerals and hate gays. It's so easy to say "real Muslims who practice sharia law etc. etc." and refer to scripture. But the vast majority of Muslims do not follow scripture to the letter,the same exact way that most Christians and Jews do not follow their scripture to the letter. Do you mean to tell me that all real Christians abstain from sex until marriage? That they never have impure thoughts? Do you want to tell me that no real Jews eat bacon? Please... No, that's my point exactly. What's the common denominator of all Muslims? Or of all Christians? Or Jews? Scripture. Holy books. Except that a large majority of religious people cherrypick the things that are nice about scripture. Well, great, but then it's not a holy book. They're just having intellectual input, like reading Kant or Nietzsche. And then reading scripture doesn't make them any more religious than reading any other piece of literature does. I can read the bible, and I can say: 'Well, do unto others, that's a good idea, I'll subscribe to that.' Because I decide it's a good idea. That doesn't make me Christian, I cherrypicked one nice aspect about the New Testament. So your point about all "real" Muslims being terrible people is moot because one could argue that all "real" Christians are terrible people as well. That doesn't make my point moot, that IS my point. If people were true to their faith, and I do mean Christians just as much as Muslims, the world would be a terrible place. That's because the bible is a horrid guideline, as much as the Qu'ran. But if you don't live by either, why would you call yourself a Muslim / Christian? Because you cherrypick the nice things about it? That makes you enlightened, not religious. I'll stop replying here now, because I really don't want to make anyone think I condone this terrible incident and I know I'm getting perilously close to that. What does being true to your faith look like? It's kind of ironic that a lot of anti-theists don't shut up about how much they value rational thought and logic, but when religions apply that to their texts they are condemned as "cherry picking" for not taking it at face value. What a farce. Please tell me, what does a "real christian" look like then? You'll probably tell me that we should stone adulterers, you know, because you haven't read the whole book, and can't apply simple reasoning to john 8: 7. It's just a convenient way to not challenge their own deep settled beliefs. Its far more comfortable that any moderate, and probably intelligent, religious person is not a "real" follower, therefore they can dismiss what they say as cherry picking. It makes life much more comfortable to rationalize excusing themselves from engaging what so ever with what the large majority of what followers believe, extremists provide the ultimate straw man for anti-theists to cling on to, only arguing in their mind with such extremes. He clearly has no idea how religious people actually operate or how the interpretation of religious texts as literal is a modern phenomena. Best to leave him to his stilted characterizations. In fact the 'literal' argument doesn't really hold weight. For example Mathew 5:39 can only be interpreted one way, if you take the bible literally how can you read that verse and then go and cause harm? They aren't real Christians or interpreting it literally, they are just bad people.
I will say, at least in my personal experience, it is really quite startling how many people call themselves religious but don't engage with their faith at all. I have never been religious, but I dated a girl in college who's family was, and she dragged me to church a couple of times. 10 minutes into the guy's sermon, which I thought was pretty good and tackled some interesting topics, and I look around and notice I am literally the only person paying attention. It seems like, for at least some people, religion can be part of their identity; "I am a Christian," without it actually being a meaningful part of their life, and I find that a little strange.
Especially when the people in that church would immediately turn around and call Obama a Muslim (this was in 2008)...it's like "Wow, you really aren't listening to this at all, are you?"
And there is a small part of the religious population, but it is big enough, that twists what are beautiful teaching documents to suit their hurtful and sometimes violent agenda. You see it with bigoted Christians in the U.S., and you see it with fundamentalist Muslims the world over. It's a shame, because these faulty interpretations have completely turned me off to religion, and I fear for the future if these factions are allowed to grow.
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On February 14 2015 00:03 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 23:48 UdderChaos wrote:On February 13 2015 23:29 farvacola wrote:On February 13 2015 17:01 UdderChaos wrote:On February 13 2015 04:34 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 04:22 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 04:04 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 04:02 DinoMight wrote:On February 13 2015 03:47 SixStrings wrote:On February 13 2015 03:37 koreasilver wrote: [quote] I never knew you were a scholar of Islam. Under which school of theology did you study, and what are your principles of exegesis? Please, won't you enlighten me? Do teach me the mental gymnastics I have to do to interpret the misadventures of the warmongering, pillaging child-rapist, whose highest ambition it is to convert, and kill those he can't convert, as the 'religion of piece'. When you're done, I'll tell you how you can interpret the story of Lot and his daughters as a tale of two pro-active feminists. Your problem is that you take the most radical, fanatical, extreme people and assume that 1.6 billion of us all think the same way. It would be like saying all 2 billion Christians are backwards hicks who demonstrate at soldiers' funerals and hate gays. It's so easy to say "real Muslims who practice sharia law etc. etc." and refer to scripture. But the vast majority of Muslims do not follow scripture to the letter,the same exact way that most Christians and Jews do not follow their scripture to the letter. Do you mean to tell me that all real Christians abstain from sex until marriage? That they never have impure thoughts? Do you want to tell me that no real Jews eat bacon? Please... No, that's my point exactly. What's the common denominator of all Muslims? Or of all Christians? Or Jews? Scripture. Holy books. Except that a large majority of religious people cherrypick the things that are nice about scripture. Well, great, but then it's not a holy book. They're just having intellectual input, like reading Kant or Nietzsche. And then reading scripture doesn't make them any more religious than reading any other piece of literature does. I can read the bible, and I can say: 'Well, do unto others, that's a good idea, I'll subscribe to that.' Because I decide it's a good idea. That doesn't make me Christian, I cherrypicked one nice aspect about the New Testament. So your point about all "real" Muslims being terrible people is moot because one could argue that all "real" Christians are terrible people as well. That doesn't make my point moot, that IS my point. If people were true to their faith, and I do mean Christians just as much as Muslims, the world would be a terrible place. That's because the bible is a horrid guideline, as much as the Qu'ran. But if you don't live by either, why would you call yourself a Muslim / Christian? Because you cherrypick the nice things about it? That makes you enlightened, not religious. I'll stop replying here now, because I really don't want to make anyone think I condone this terrible incident and I know I'm getting perilously close to that. What does being true to your faith look like? It's kind of ironic that a lot of anti-theists don't shut up about how much they value rational thought and logic, but when religions apply that to their texts they are condemned as "cherry picking" for not taking it at face value. What a farce. Please tell me, what does a "real christian" look like then? You'll probably tell me that we should stone adulterers, you know, because you haven't read the whole book, and can't apply simple reasoning to john 8: 7. It's just a convenient way to not challenge their own deep settled beliefs. Its far more comfortable that any moderate, and probably intelligent, religious person is not a "real" follower, therefore they can dismiss what they say as cherry picking. It makes life much more comfortable to rationalize excusing themselves from engaging what so ever with what the large majority of what followers believe, extremists provide the ultimate straw man for anti-theists to cling on to, only arguing in their mind with such extremes. He clearly has no idea how religious people actually operate or how the interpretation of religious texts as literal is a modern phenomena. Best to leave him to his stilted characterizations. In fact the 'literal' argument doesn't really hold weight. For example Mathew 5:39 can only be interpreted one way, if you take the bible literally how can you read that verse and then go and cause harm? They aren't real Christians or interpreting it literally, they are just bad people. I will say, at least in my personal experience, it is really quite startling how many people call themselves religious but don't engage with their faith at all. I have never been religious, but I dated a girl in college who's family was, and she dragged me to church a couple of times. 10 minutes into the guy's sermon, which I thought was pretty good and tackled some interesting topics, and I look around and notice I am literally the only person paying attention. It seems like, for at least some people, religion can be part of their identity; "I am a Christian," without it actually being a meaningful part of their life, and I find that a little strange. Especially when the people in that church would immediately turn around and call Obama a Muslim (this was in 2008)...it's like "Wow, you really aren't listening to this at all, are you?" And there is a small part of the religious population, but it is big enough, that twists what are beautiful teaching documents to suit their hurtful and sometimes violent agenda. You see it with bigoted Christians in the U.S., and you see it with fundamentalist Muslims the world over. It's a shame, because these faulty interpretations have completely turned me off to religion, and I fear for the future if these factions are allowed to grow. Personally I think that to be truly religious, you have to, at least, be well educated and as you said, many people who call themselves Muslims or Christians are just... believers in God that haven't put too much thought into their believes. Most believe in God but it's also a bit like a superstition that they don't really understand. Moreover, as they tend not to abide by the teachings, they feel guilty (which adds to the superstition) and become defensive when non-religious people call them out. And I agree, at its core most cults are cults of peace and love (even if they tend to discriminate people) but they are always twisted to the point that the love and peace aren't primordial anymore.
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On February 13 2015 23:45 QuanticHawk wrote: tragic, but all evidence from the investigation points towards him being the quintessential shithead crazy neighbor who snapped. Engaging in violence against a person of another race or religion does not automatically make it into a hate crime. All of his neighbors described him as a psycho who regularly fought with them over neighbor things.
Of course, the media is desperately trying to tie it race since controversy sells a lot better.
It's seems clear the guy was a jerk. I think the question is why after all of the other arguments and such did this particular incident turn into executing 3 young adults.
I'm also terribly curious why he turned himself in.
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On February 14 2015 05:19 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 23:45 QuanticHawk wrote: tragic, but all evidence from the investigation points towards him being the quintessential shithead crazy neighbor who snapped. Engaging in violence against a person of another race or religion does not automatically make it into a hate crime. All of his neighbors described him as a psycho who regularly fought with them over neighbor things.
Of course, the media is desperately trying to tie it race since controversy sells a lot better. It's seems clear the guy was a jerk. I think the question is why after all of the other arguments and such did this particular incident turn into executing 3 young adults. I'm also terribly curious why he turned himself in.
It sounds a lot like those lone radicals that have been coming up a lot. They're crazies who would do stuff anyways but just use religion (or hatred of religion) as an excuse.
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On February 13 2015 01:11 SixStrings wrote:Why would this even make (inter) national news? If every murder in the US was reported in international media, we would get spammed more than once per hour. Before I get banned, according to wikipedia, there have been 14,827 murders in the USA in 2012. That's like 40 a day. Slightly less than in North Korea, like 10% less, twice as many murders per capita than Syria. Almost five times as many Czech Republic. So just cool it with the conspiracy theories. This wasn't 'covered up' because of the Muslim targets, it's just too common an occurance to report it. €: WTF happens in D. C.? From 2001-2005 it had like ten times the national average homicide rate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rateAre executions ... executed in the capitol? Or how else can you explain that? This just in, a country with a population of 319 million has nearly as many murders as a country with a population of 25 million. More on this shocking fact at 11. Now back to you, Tom.
More than 40 people per day are dying in the Syrian Civil War. The Czech Republic is a largely homogenous country with a population of 10 million. Also, D.C. is a rough city. I'm honestly surprised that you're shocked by any of this.
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On February 25 2015 00:58 iVLosK! wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 01:11 SixStrings wrote:Why would this even make (inter) national news? If every murder in the US was reported in international media, we would get spammed more than once per hour. Before I get banned, according to wikipedia, there have been 14,827 murders in the USA in 2012. That's like 40 a day. Slightly less than in North Korea, like 10% less, twice as many murders per capita than Syria. Almost five times as many Czech Republic. So just cool it with the conspiracy theories. This wasn't 'covered up' because of the Muslim targets, it's just too common an occurance to report it. €: WTF happens in D. C.? From 2001-2005 it had like ten times the national average homicide rate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rateAre executions ... executed in the capitol? Or how else can you explain that? This just in, a country with a population of 319 million has nearly as many murders as a country with a population of 25 million. More on this shocking fact at 11. Now back to you, Tom. More than 40 people per day are dying in the Syrian Civil War. The Czech Republic is a largely homogenous country with a population of 10 million. Also, D.C. is a rough city. I'm honestly surprised that you're shocked by any of this. although sixstrings post was badly worded, he may have been talking about the rate per capita. Also, your description of DC as a rough city doesn't really address that the rate has been higher for some isolated period of time. (i couldn't find that information in the wiki at all though..)
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On February 25 2015 01:12 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2015 00:58 iVLosK! wrote:On February 13 2015 01:11 SixStrings wrote:Why would this even make (inter) national news? If every murder in the US was reported in international media, we would get spammed more than once per hour. Before I get banned, according to wikipedia, there have been 14,827 murders in the USA in 2012. That's like 40 a day. Slightly less than in North Korea, like 10% less, twice as many murders per capita than Syria. Almost five times as many Czech Republic. So just cool it with the conspiracy theories. This wasn't 'covered up' because of the Muslim targets, it's just too common an occurance to report it. €: WTF happens in D. C.? From 2001-2005 it had like ten times the national average homicide rate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rateAre executions ... executed in the capitol? Or how else can you explain that? This just in, a country with a population of 319 million has nearly as many murders as a country with a population of 25 million. More on this shocking fact at 11. Now back to you, Tom. More than 40 people per day are dying in the Syrian Civil War. The Czech Republic is a largely homogenous country with a population of 10 million. Also, D.C. is a rough city. I'm honestly surprised that you're shocked by any of this. although sixstrings post was badly worded, he may have been talking about the rate per capita. Also, your description of DC as a rough city doesn't really address that the rate has been higher for some isolated period of time. (i couldn't find that information in the wiki at all though..) Washington D.C. is a uniquely American place in terms of socio-political trends and its extreme class-based geographic stratification. There are parts of D.C. that look like a city under an artillery barrage; drive 5 miles and all of a sudden you're moving through the Brownstone apartments of diplomats and U.S. Attorneys.
To put it another way, the then mayor of D.C., Marion Barry, was caught smoking crack on video tape in 1990. He was re-elected as Mayor of D.C. in 1994
In my opinion, non-Americans who have a hard time understanding how things like violence are more of a problem here should look to places like the D.C. Metropolitan Area, as it stands as a good example of how U.S. cities look and feel rather different than their European or Asian counterparts when it comes to geography and interconnectedness (or lack thereof).
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On February 25 2015 00:58 iVLosK! wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2015 01:11 SixStrings wrote:Why would this even make (inter) national news? If every murder in the US was reported in international media, we would get spammed more than once per hour. Before I get banned, according to wikipedia, there have been 14,827 murders in the USA in 2012. That's like 40 a day. Slightly less than in North Korea, like 10% less, twice as many murders per capita than Syria. Almost five times as many Czech Republic. So just cool it with the conspiracy theories. This wasn't 'covered up' because of the Muslim targets, it's just too common an occurance to report it. €: WTF happens in D. C.? From 2001-2005 it had like ten times the national average homicide rate: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rateAre executions ... executed in the capitol? Or how else can you explain that? This just in, a country with a population of 319 million has nearly as many murders as a country with a population of 25 million. More on this shocking fact at 11. Now back to you, Tom. More than 40 people per day are dying in the Syrian Civil War. The Czech Republic is a largely homogenous country with a population of 10 million. Also, D.C. is a rough city. I'm honestly surprised that you're shocked by any of this. Confirmed for not understanding "rate" in "homicide rate".
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