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On February 15 2015 10:28 Jockmcplop wrote: I hate to distance myself from the emotional hit of constant brutal death but i find it interesting that suicide attacks don't seem to be on the agenda at the moment from ISIS. It shows a certain kind of ideological shift from Al Queda. If one's own death and glorious ascension isn't the objective here then what is? Is it all just an expression of anger? Surely that's easier to handle on a policy level (long term obviously) than suicide attackers. Blame what happened in Boston. If you can have a whole city under siege for a day or two, it's a far stronger message than "that was terrible, but atleast it's over".
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On February 15 2015 17:17 Incognoto wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 11:08 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 15 2015 10:58 Integra wrote:On February 15 2015 10:50 Jockmcplop wrote:On February 15 2015 10:48 Integra wrote: Since ISIS seems to keep up the overall attacks on the western world it's prolly only a matter of time before another massive war effort will be initiated, I mean if USA would start to lead a war against ISIS who would actually protest against that and not support the war effort?
If ISIS keeps this up its only a matter of time. I think there are many in the US who wouldn't support any war right now, regardless of who is on the receiving end. More troops on the ground in that region would be a nightmare for the government too. Give it a year and if ISIS keeps this up I wouldn't be surprised to see a join effort between USA, Germany and France, that is if ISIS keeps it up and escalates their attacks. It does sort of feel like we're edging towards the inevitable. I honestly think every single possible alternative will be attempted before all out war. The international credibility of the USA (+UK) is only just recovering from Afghanistan and Iraq. Iraq might have been wrong, but what was wrong with Afghanistan? Serious question.
Take a look at Afghanistan now. Some people say we made a difference. Most of those people are in positions where you have to say that. Years of war - huge amount of deaths of UK/US servicemen/women and really what do we have to show for it?
Its not that we were wrong to go in to Afghanistan, we just didn't make a difference there.
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Instantly close the borders of the EU, do not let anyone from a muslim country come in. Stop helping the boats in the mediterrean sea and do not let people who decided to fight for ISIS come back to their EU country. If a EU country wants to "rehabilitate" ISIS fighters then cut this country from the freedom of movement of the EU. Tighten the controls on Islam. Ban every single muslim text written in arabic (quran included), force muslim people to speak the local language inside mosques and put armed guards to make sure this gets respected. Dismantle arabic schools (I heard these are a thing in France? WTF?) and stop teaching arabic in schools/universities.
People here are just closing their eyes hoping everything will fix itself magically. It hasn't worked in the past, it's not working now, it's not gonna work in the future. Let's face it, something needs to be done and quickly.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On February 15 2015 19:58 BlitzerSC wrote: Instantly close the borders of the EU, do not let anyone from a muslim country come in. Stop helping the boats in the mediterrean sea and do not let people who decided to fight for ISIS come back to their EU country. If a EU country wants to "rehabilitate" ISIS fighters then cut this country from the freedom of movement of the EU. Tighten the controls on Islam. Ban every single muslim text written in arabic (quran included), force muslim people to speak the local language inside mosques and put armed guards to make sure this gets respected. Dismantle arabic schools (I heard these are a thing in France? WTF?) and stop teaching arabic in schools/universities.
People here are just closing their eyes hoping everything will fix itself magically. It hasn't worked in the past, it's not working now, it's not gonna work in the future. Let's face it, something needs to be done and quickly. Sad to see that the terrorists' methods are apparently already working. I wonder how many freedoms people like you are willing to give up for some ineffective security measures.
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I agree with closing the borders for Muslims (I mean, there's a lot of refugees from all over the world, we don't need more Muslims), but banning texts in Arabic? Armed guards in mosques? And not teaching Arabic? That's not just over the top, that's stupid.
I know immigration is key for our economy, but why are we always getting those who are least likely to integrate and most likely to make trouble? There are billions of Indians, Asians and millions of Eastern Europeans, Non-Muslim Africans and South Americans who would love to live in Western / Central Europe.
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Hey sixstrings, on which continent the eastern europeans live?
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On February 15 2015 20:26 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 19:58 BlitzerSC wrote: Instantly close the borders of the EU, do not let anyone from a muslim country come in. Stop helping the boats in the mediterrean sea and do not let people who decided to fight for ISIS come back to their EU country. If a EU country wants to "rehabilitate" ISIS fighters then cut this country from the freedom of movement of the EU. Tighten the controls on Islam. Ban every single muslim text written in arabic (quran included), force muslim people to speak the local language inside mosques and put armed guards to make sure this gets respected. Dismantle arabic schools (I heard these are a thing in France? WTF?) and stop teaching arabic in schools/universities.
People here are just closing their eyes hoping everything will fix itself magically. It hasn't worked in the past, it's not working now, it's not gonna work in the future. Let's face it, something needs to be done and quickly. Sad to see that the terrorists' methods are apparently already working. I wonder how many freedoms people like you are willing to give up for some ineffective security measures.
What freedoms am I giving up? NONE. Its still the same as before, the only difference is that it would be regulated. If you are a muslim that wants to integrate in our society then you won't have problems with this stuff. Sad to see that muslims apologists are still trying to find excuses.
On February 15 2015 20:27 SixStrings wrote: I agree with closing the borders for Muslims (I mean, there's a lot of refugees from all over the world, we don't need more Muslims), but banning texts in Arabic? Armed guards in mosques? And not teaching Arabic? That's not just over the top, that's stupid.
I know immigration is key for our economy, but why are we always getting those who are least likely to integrate and most likely to make trouble? There are billions of Indians, Asians and millions of Eastern Europeans, Non-Muslim Africans and South Americans who would love to live in Europe.
That's not over the top at all. What's over the top is doing nothing. Exactly what's going on right now. If I write a book saying that Italian people should revolt and kill every single person that has a different political view than mine, it would get censored. Why is the Quran even allowed to be sold? At least make sure it's translated in the local language FFS.
The problem with immigration is not that we get those "less likely to integrate", it's that literally everyone can get in. Immigration is FINE as long as it's regulated and right now it isn't. If a country needs X amount of engineers, only X amount of engineers can get in. PERIOD. Not everybody.
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Wow. So much hatred in this thread. It's kind of depressing. When I'm reading these posts here I feel like I'm back to the 2011 and listening to the Breivik justification and vision of the Europe. Damn...
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On February 15 2015 21:02 [BSP]Kain wrote: Wow. So much hatred in this thread. It's kind of depressing. When I'm reading these posts here I feel like I'm back to the 2011 and listening to the Breivik justification and vision of the Europe. Damn...
Is it surprising at all ? i mean for how long can european heads bow down to them and their "equality" demands, we give them place to stay, we give them money even tho most of them dont work, they still get social benefits, and what do they do ? keep killing. For how long can this keep going?
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Northern Ireland20764 Posts
On February 15 2015 13:11 forsooth wrote: I'm getting the feeling Europe is going to have to adjust to stuff like this happening on a pretty regular basis. I hope we do adjust to be honest rather than pander to these types of people, or alternatively employ a load more invasive security measures and the likes.
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European muslims are choosing to kill people in the middle east and in their own countries for a country that on paper doesnt even exist and you are still thinking that love and flowerpower will overcome all problems, im sorry but that sounds a bit dilusional. Laws and regulations exist to benefit society directly or indirectly and i think as a "lefty", that a government should protect its citizens and culture against any treath, also radical muslims and breiviks etcetc.
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On February 15 2015 19:58 BlitzerSC wrote: Instantly close the borders of the EU, do not let anyone from a muslim country come in. Stop helping the boats in the mediterrean sea and do not let people who decided to fight for ISIS come back to their EU country. If a EU country wants to "rehabilitate" ISIS fighters then cut this country from the freedom of movement of the EU. Tighten the controls on Islam. Ban every single muslim text written in arabic (quran included), force muslim people to speak the local language inside mosques and put armed guards to make sure this gets respected. Dismantle arabic schools (I heard these are a thing in France? WTF?) and stop teaching arabic in schools/universities.
People here are just closing their eyes hoping everything will fix itself magically. It hasn't worked in the past, it's not working now, it's not gonna work in the future. Let's face it, something needs to be done and quickly. No! It's our governments who support "moderate" rebels in Syria. Our "allies" Turkey, Saudi Arabia are even supporting the radical terrorists. Remember how US, UK and French politicans even wanted to directly invade Syria after the supposed chemical weapon attack by Assad? If that would have happened we would probably have a full blown caliphate there right now.
By our actions we are prolonging the conflict in Syria and Iraq and it is our responsibility to help at least some of the refugees who for the most part just want to live a quiet and peaceful life.
And stop helping the refugee boats in the mediterranean? You just want these poor people to drown because they got ripped of by some human traffickers? How poisoned is your soul to say such a misanthropic thing?
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On February 15 2015 21:05 whiteLotus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 21:02 [BSP]Kain wrote: Wow. So much hatred in this thread. It's kind of depressing. When I'm reading these posts here I feel like I'm back to the 2011 and listening to the Breivik justification and vision of the Europe. Damn... Is it surprising at all ? i mean for how long can european heads bow down to them and their "equality" demands, we give them place to stay, we give them money even tho most of them dont work, they still get social benefits, and what do they do ? keep killing. For how long can this keep going?
and with they you mean 4 guys. lol, pathetic.
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On February 15 2015 20:27 SixStrings wrote: I agree with closing the borders for Muslims (I mean, there's a lot of refugees from all over the world, we don't need more Muslims), but banning texts in Arabic? Armed guards in mosques? And not teaching Arabic? That's not just over the top, that's stupid.
I know immigration is key for our economy, but why are we always getting those who are least likely to integrate and most likely to make trouble? There are billions of Indians, Asians and millions of Eastern Europeans, Non-Muslim Africans and South Americans who would love to live in Western / Central Europe.
So what you are saying is that muslims are the ones most likely to cause trouble and not integrate. I agree that in europe that is true when we look at the issue empirically. That does not mean that we can generalize all muslims from the fact that more muslims are represented in crime statistics etc. Do you see the problem with that?
In Norway in the 80s we had a lot of problems with some of our vietnamese innhabitants - the same kind of problems we have with some muslims today. But that has changed for the better. Why do you think that has happened?
Why has muslims in the USA integrated better than in Europe do you think? (at least up until 9/11)
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On February 15 2015 19:58 BlitzerSC wrote: Instantly close the borders of the EU, do not let anyone from a muslim country come in. Stop helping the boats in the mediterrean sea and do not let people who decided to fight for ISIS come back to their EU country. If a EU country wants to "rehabilitate" ISIS fighters then cut this country from the freedom of movement of the EU. Tighten the controls on Islam. Ban every single muslim text written in arabic (quran included), force muslim people to speak the local language inside mosques and put armed guards to make sure this gets respected. Dismantle arabic schools (I heard these are a thing in France? WTF?) and stop teaching arabic in schools/universities.
People here are just closing their eyes hoping everything will fix itself magically. It hasn't worked in the past, it's not working now, it's not gonna work in the future. Let's face it, something needs to be done and quickly.
Not that I'm not for reforms on muslim immigration and integration, but you sound a bit extreme. However, you have some good ideas such as:
- Don't allow radicals back to their EU country - Don't teach non-local languages at school/university (Edit: unless it's a foreign language subject/module)
I'd add one more:
- Ban burka (except in mosques?)
All is part of integration really. It's what a sane country should want if culture and values are important.
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Why has muslims in the USA integrated better than in Europe do you think? (at least up until 9/11)
Integration in the US isn't all that good either. Neither for muslims nor any other ethnicity. Even before 9/11, that didn't change anything but turning a not-working integration system into a country that actually fears muslims (same for every other country). It's also not that "muslims most likely don't integrate", it's that the bad examples are alot shinier than the good ones. I know plenty turks (even worked with a long haired, gay turk) which are more german than me.
Also, i've yet to see a statistic that shows that "more muslims" than christians are represented in crime statistics.
- Don't teach non-local languages at school/university
That's hipocrite (hypocrite, don't know - can never remember). I learned spanish, french and english (well and latin) in school next to my mothertongue. They aren't local either, what you were trying to say is "ban arabic in schools".
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On February 15 2015 21:39 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +Why has muslims in the USA integrated better than in Europe do you think? (at least up until 9/11)
Integration in the US isn't all that good either. Neither for muslims nor any other ethnicity. Even before 9/11, that didn't change anything but turning a not-working integration system into a country that actually fears muslims (same for every other country). It's also not that "muslims most likely don't integrate", it's that the bad examples are alot shinier than the good ones. I know plenty turks (even worked with a long haired, gay turk) which are more german than me. Also, i've yet to see a statistic that shows that "more muslims" than christians are represented in crime statistics. That's hipocrite (hypocrite, don't know - can never remember). I learned spanish, french and english (well and latin) in school next to my mothertongue. They aren't local either, what you were trying to say is "ban arabic in schools".
Actually, you're right. I should have clarified what I meant. Obviously people should learn foreign languages. What I meant was not to have schools/universities teach subjects in non-local languages unless it's a foreign language subject (e.g. English, French, German, etc).
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On February 15 2015 21:05 whiteLotus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 21:02 [BSP]Kain wrote: Wow. So much hatred in this thread. It's kind of depressing. When I'm reading these posts here I feel like I'm back to the 2011 and listening to the Breivik justification and vision of the Europe. Damn... Is it surprising at all ? i mean for how long can european heads bow down to them and their "equality" demands, we give them place to stay, we give them money even tho most of them dont work, they still get social benefits, and what do they do ? keep killing. For how long can this keep going?
Hmm. I haven't noticed they "keep killing". Every single one of them? Wow, thanks for telling me that, because I was not aware. Although to be frank, they must be really bad at that, all the people I know here who have Arabic descent still failed to kill me, on so many opportunities. :/ Most of the ones I know even work and have successful businesses. They really failed at being the immigrant I guess, not enough leeching and aggression.
On the other hand I keep hearing about some "gangsta" nazi wannabies committing crimes or people doing economic frauds affecting lives of thousands of people. I wonder why these ones are allowed to stay and other are target of hatred? Of course apart from skin differences and cultural background.
Maybe let's ban black people from USA as well? Why not, after all statistically they have higher chance of committing crimes. Also if we are at it, let's kill or isolate all the Germans for what they did, so far nothing is comparable in modern history to the atrocities they did. Let's judge everyone by their cultural of historic background, if they will pass the test, we can add skin color and then gender. Would be awesome.
Or we can try to work through the science instead of shallow human emotions and cognitive biases? I know it's more comfortable to be in privileged group because you worked hard to be born in it, but still, I would say, let's give it a try.
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Northern Ireland20764 Posts
I'd just say that America is such a melting pot of nationalities and backgrounds, plus has a much more patriotic ideal to it that it naturally forces integration to a degree.
Integration seems pretty dependent on whatever group is immigrating not centralising around particular places as well, so with the States and its tighter immigration controls you don't have mass influxes of nationalities at any particular time, it's a gradual influx in dribs and drabs, families go to areas without many from their own background and weave themselves into the fabric of the place.
Conversely in Europe you've had big movements of people at various times. Muslim Bosnians during the breakup of Yugoslavia, many of whom went to Scandanavian countries iirc. Not to mention big movements any time the EU has been expanded, that kind of thing.
This then leads to ghettoisation, and removes the incentive to properly integrate because you're around so many people who speak your language and follow your customs. You see this in the banlieues[sic] of Paris, you see this in areas like Bradford in England, where the ratio of immigrants-'natives' is too skewed.
This isn't to say immigrants are at fault either. Bad immigration policy and the elephant in the room that is oft-neglected in discourse, the continual and unfettered exploitation of these people by businesses to save them some money.
If you want a parallel with the States and the kind of phenomenon I'm talking about, I'd contrast the black community in a city where they're dispersed evenly versus a city where there are black areas and white areas, and see the problems the latter causes.
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On February 15 2015 21:24 tanngard wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2015 20:27 SixStrings wrote: I agree with closing the borders for Muslims (I mean, there's a lot of refugees from all over the world, we don't need more Muslims), but banning texts in Arabic? Armed guards in mosques? And not teaching Arabic? That's not just over the top, that's stupid.
I know immigration is key for our economy, but why are we always getting those who are least likely to integrate and most likely to make trouble? There are billions of Indians, Asians and millions of Eastern Europeans, Non-Muslim Africans and South Americans who would love to live in Western / Central Europe. So what you are saying is that muslims are the ones most likely to cause trouble and not integrate. I agree that in europe that is true when we look at the issue empirically. That does not mean that we can generalize all muslims from the fact that more muslims are represented in crime statistics etc. Do you see the problem with that? In Norway in the 80s we had a lot of problems with some of our vietnamese innhabitants - the same kind of problems we have with some muslims today. But that has changed for the better. Why do you think that has happened? Why has muslims in the USA integrated better than in Europe do you think? (at least up until 9/11)
We can generalise the muslim problem.
A university in germany did a research on the differences in regilious fundamentalists and the differences between christians and muslims is quite clear and shocking.
According to the research 44% of muslims in western europe has radical islamic beliefs and 75% think there is only one interpretation of the Koran possible to which every Muslim should stick. 65% percent of the muslims in western europe think that their religious laws are more important than the laws of the country they live in. Another striking finding in Figure 1 is that religious fundamentalism is much more widespread among Muslims than among Christian natives.
This is academic research and i find it shocking. Western european countries have failed to intergrate islam in our civilization and now poses a treath to the lives of their citizens and citizens in the middle east too (IS state). So yes, i'd say something has to be done and a positive change has to be initiated at multiple fronts.
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