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On October 24 2007 04:24 LonelyMargarita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 04:22 IdrA wrote:
and then you went on to restate your argument in a way that made sense. Incorrect. Either read my analogy to the mile, or drop it.
you don't get it man. your original post said:
Because if the most intelligent people in the world believed in God (Einstein, Hawking), it puts a big damper on anyone that tries to disprove god with "logic." If anyone would have done it, they would have. Most people have a very limited view of logic though, and somehow think that you can prove or disprove God with it.
This clearly means:
If the most intelligent people in the world believed in god, it would make it more difficult to disprove god with logic. However, you cannot prove or disprove god with logic.
Idra posted:
wait so if the intelligent people believed in god it would be a knock against secularism, but since they dont it doesnt matter because you cant apply logic to god?
which means the same thing
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On October 24 2007 04:25 travis wrote: Well I would say most people convert to a religion for either social reasons, or to find purpose in their life.
I think that is a common misconception many secularists share. He really needs to speak to religious people, and more specifically converts to get accurate answers.
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Well, since you seem to know, why don't you just enlighten us.
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On October 24 2007 04:23 LonelyMargarita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 03:43 MyLostTemple wrote: albert einstien was not a christian.
christianity is the most wide spread religion because christian colonies have been roaming across the world throughout history forcing everyone to convert to christianity after they arrived. It's been built on the blood and force of your ancestors. It's not so much a phenomenon as a historical fact. Now we have so many forms of christianity you can't even count them all and at the same time athiesm is growing at a rate never seen before.
i don't think there's anything depressing about not believing in god. in fact, i find it liberating. This is (for the majority) exactly why people were religious in the past, but I don't think it explains why people remain religious today, or why secular people convert with no religious upbringing. I think that might be what the OP is after.
I think there are many explanations for secular people converting to religions later on in life, but I also believe that this is far from normal. I keep hearing that there is a MUCH higher conversion rate to atheist/agnostic then vice-versa. ( I'll try to find some exact statistics;( )
My point being that It wouldn't require to much explanation since it doesn't happen as much as people might think.
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how would that be a misconception, why else would you convert?
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On October 24 2007 04:31 travis wrote: Well, since you seem to know, why don't you just enlighten us.
When did I say I knew?
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On October 24 2007 04:32 IdrA wrote: how would that be a misconception, why else would you convert?
Perhaps because they developed faith through education and exposure.
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On October 24 2007 04:32 IdrA wrote: how would that be a misconception, why else would you convert?
Some sort of personal experience that would make someone belief. I would say many people who claim these might be intellectual dishonest with themselves, but I am sure there are many people who honestly believe they have experienced God in some way or another.
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On October 24 2007 04:31 OverTheUnder wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 04:23 LonelyMargarita wrote:On October 24 2007 03:43 MyLostTemple wrote: albert einstien was not a christian.
christianity is the most wide spread religion because christian colonies have been roaming across the world throughout history forcing everyone to convert to christianity after they arrived. It's been built on the blood and force of your ancestors. It's not so much a phenomenon as a historical fact. Now we have so many forms of christianity you can't even count them all and at the same time athiesm is growing at a rate never seen before.
i don't think there's anything depressing about not believing in god. in fact, i find it liberating. This is (for the majority) exactly why people were religious in the past, but I don't think it explains why people remain religious today, or why secular people convert with no religious upbringing. I think that might be what the OP is after. I think there are many explanations for secular people converting to religions later on in life, but I also believe that this is far from normal. I keep hearing that there is a MUCH higher conversion rate to atheist/agnostic then vice-versa. ( I'll try to find some exact statistics;( ) My point being that It wouldn't require to much explanation since it doesn't happen as much as people might think.
I think they would have the most interesting explanation though. Compared to a) historically, most people were religious because of fear of punishment otherwise and b) today, most people are religious because it is ingrained (brainwashed) in them by their parents for 18 years. I find the people who choose religion consciously on their own with little outside influence the most intriguing .
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Right now Mormons are trying to convert me to their faith. Every week they ask me to simply "Go home and pray. If you don't know if God is there, go home, pray and ask for a signal, and if you ask, you will get an answer."
Have to admit I haven't done this yet, because I cannot conjure the measure of honest faith truly necessary for such an experiment, but one wonders, if I do this, come back and report that I have seen the light, will you take that as evidence? :D
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On October 24 2007 04:34 OverTheUnder wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 04:32 IdrA wrote: how would that be a misconception, why else would you convert? Some sort of personal experience that would make someone belief. I would say many people who claim these might be intellectual dishonest with themselves, but I am sure there are many people who honestly believe they have experienced God in some way or another. i would chalk that up to 'social reasons' religion-oriented hallucinations/delusions would be meaningless without the social context.
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On October 24 2007 04:34 LonelyMargarita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 04:32 IdrA wrote: how would that be a misconception, why else would you convert? Perhaps because they developed faith through education and exposure.
I have so much trouble believing that.
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On October 24 2007 04:34 LonelyMargarita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 04:32 IdrA wrote: how would that be a misconception, why else would you convert? Perhaps because they developed faith through education and exposure. would that not be finding personal meaning? what else is religion going to educate you about?
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No I think he means coming to the logical conclusion that the religion is clearly correct about the nature of the universe.
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On October 24 2007 04:40 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 04:34 LonelyMargarita wrote:On October 24 2007 04:32 IdrA wrote: how would that be a misconception, why else would you convert? Perhaps because they developed faith through education and exposure. would that not be finding personal meaning? what else is religion going to educate you about?
Education ABOUT the religion. Most people (secular and religious alike) are sadly very ignorant about a topic they are very adamant about. e.g. I cannot say whether I believe string theory is true or false, because I don't know enough about it. Unfortunately a similar ignorance doesn't keep most people from developing strong beliefs in religion.
I find it more interesting to study the secularists and religious individuals that actually are well educated on religion. There are four groups: 1) Secularists who remain secular after becoming educated, 2) religious who remained religious after education, 3) secularists who became religious after education, and 4) religious who became secular after education about religion. There's also the subgroup: religious who converted to another religion after becoming educated about religion.
Because so many people are just religious/secular because of upbringing, they never made the decision themselves. I'd wager you can learn much more from the people who made an educated decision about religion.
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becoming more aware/knowledgeable about the religion alone would not make you convert, there has to be something in the religion that you became aware of (that you liked) that would cause you to convert to it. whatever it is that you like is the real reason that you convert, becoming more educated about the religion just introduced it to you. presumably that would be something that gives personal meaning
unless people read the bible and are like OH god snapped his fingers and everything came into existance, that makes sense im gonna be a christian now.
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On October 24 2007 04:48 IdrA wrote: becoming more aware/knowledgeable about the religion alone would not make you convert, there has to be something in the religion that you became aware of (that you liked) that would cause you to convert to it. whatever it is that you like is the real reason that you convert, becoming more educated about the religion just introduced it to you. presumably that would be something that gives personal meaning
unless people read the bible and are like OH god snapped his fingers and everything came into existance, that makes sense im gonna be a christian now.
Yes, the education allows the reason to happen, but I don't think it's always for "personal meaning," like many suggest. There are so many non-religious ways to find meaning (e.g. secular self-help books which don't get millions of followers) that the numbers seem to suggest a large portion of converts actually just believe in the religion, and not accept it as if to fill some void in their lives.
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On October 24 2007 04:44 LonelyMargarita wrote: Because so many people are just religious/secular because of upbringing, they never made the decision themselves. I'd wager you can learn much more from the people who made an educated decision about religion. id say most atheists have made a concious decision about their beliefs, even if they were raised atheist, simply because in almost all countries (except the scandinavian countries and whatnot) religion is so prevalent and accepted. holding an opinion that is so opposed to the vast majority on such an important topic almost forces you to think about it quite a bit.
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On October 24 2007 04:36 MoltkeWarding wrote: Right now Mormons are trying to convert me to their faith. Every week they ask me to simply "Go home and pray. If you don't know if God is there, go home, pray and ask for a signal, and if you ask, you will get an answer."
Have to admit I haven't done this yet, because I cannot conjure the measure of honest faith truly necessary for such an experiment, but one wonders, if I do this, come back and report that I have seen the light, will you take that as evidence? :D Go home and watch southpark episode "712 - All About Mormons?" instead. Much more meaningful and fun imo.
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
On October 24 2007 04:23 LonelyMargarita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 03:43 MyLostTemple wrote: albert einstien was not a christian.
Christianity is the most wide spread religion because Christian colonies have been roaming across the world throughout history forcing everyone to convert to Christianity after they arrived. It's been built on the blood and force of your ancestors. It's not so much a phenomenon as a historical fact. Now we have so many forms of Christianity you can't even count them all and at the same time atheism is growing at a rate never seen before.
i don't think there's anything depressing about not believing in god. in fact, i find it liberating. This is (for the majority) exactly why people were religious in the past, but I don't think it explains why people remain religious today, or why secular people convert with no religious upbringing. I think that might be what the OP is after.
people are religious today because it helps them cope with reality. It's that simple. People want to feel like they have a very congruent alignment with morality and Truth. It also helps people who have lost loved ones, they can pray and believe that they will meet those people in heaven and be in harmony. As Karl Marx has said: "Religion is the opium of the masses." It makes people feel good.
I have also encountered this strange belief with some Christians where they think that if religion were to die, morality would die with it. This is completely illogical, if anything, we could find a more concise form of morality by not digging through the bible and religious dogma for answers. Morals and ethics can come just as easily with out fictitious supernatural beings guiding us to answers.
The bottom line is most people don't bother questioning their origins or their own religions. They simple feed on what they are given, lead an average life, and then die, high on their religious opium from the beginning. They are sheep who never stray far from the heard.
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