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Page 6 and the debate still consists of argumentum ad verecundiam. I am saddened.
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On October 24 2007 07:13 MyLostTemple wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 05:41 no.1 wrote:On October 24 2007 05:13 MyLostTemple wrote:On October 24 2007 04:23 LonelyMargarita wrote:On October 24 2007 03:43 MyLostTemple wrote: albert einstien was not a christian.
Christianity is the most wide spread religion because Christian colonies have been roaming across the world throughout history forcing everyone to convert to Christianity after they arrived. It's been built on the blood and force of your ancestors. It's not so much a phenomenon as a historical fact. Now we have so many forms of Christianity you can't even count them all and at the same time atheism is growing at a rate never seen before.
i don't think there's anything depressing about not believing in god. in fact, i find it liberating. This is (for the majority) exactly why people were religious in the past, but I don't think it explains why people remain religious today, or why secular people convert with no religious upbringing. I think that might be what the OP is after. I have also encountered this strange belief with some Christians where they think that if religion were to die, morality would die with it. This is completely illogical, if anything, we could find a more concise form of morality by not digging through the bible and religious dogma for answers. Morals and ethics can come just as easily with out fictitious supernatural beings guiding us to answers. that's not really true. at the time the bible was written the most effective way to educate the people was by fables. i think the bible was an important step for the development of human being at this chronicle point. i don't think it was useful back then and i don't think it's helpful now. prove otherwise
The bible's 10 commandments is upon what the Western legal system is based on.
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On October 24 2007 12:17 d0da wrote: blah blah blah
We perceive him as imperfect because he does not look like most babies do.
blah blah blah
Did you ever consider following this particular line in the reverse? That is, that we perceive as perfect what we are accustomed to?
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On October 24 2007 12:17 d0da wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 12:12 Mindcrime wrote:On October 24 2007 12:04 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 01:47 travis wrote:On October 24 2007 01:34 d0da wrote: compare DNA to programming of a computer. Everything that appears on your computer screen is a bunch of 1s and 0s. This is fact and its programmed to do it by people.
You're telling me that those 4 nucleotides in our DNA just came together and paired up millions upon millions of times to create a human being out of chance? The thought of this is laughable that genetic code just randomly occured. Think about it. You're first chromosome is about 220 million base pairs long. Thats only one of 46 (23 Pairs). Adenine matched up with Guanine, and Thymine matched up with Cytosene millions and millions of times to make you're genetic code to appear as a person to everyone else and you are telling me it is just random luck and chance? Give me a break.
The leader of the Human Genome Project who's job is to discover what each and every nucleotide and chromosomes function said himself that after studying all of this its hard to not believe in Him. what does "chance" mean when you're dealing with "what could exist" absolutely nothing. when compared to a universe of nothing, whatever is possible is possible i hope that makes sense I don't see how this rebuts my post at all. The only other explanation if there is no God is that we just became out of luck. I'm not dealing with what could exist. I'm dealing with the fact of what does exist in each of our and all living things' bodies. Why is it that we have a genetic code that dictates how we look, why your arm comes off your shoulder and not out of your neck? Why is it that all animals have different codes? These codes are not simple by any means. There is people whose entire job is devoted to discovering what each piece of code does and means. The fact that there is a code at all is rather peculiar. I don't understand how people can just conceive that everything in the world is perfect because it is. In my eyes the world is perfect (physically) because God made it so, and he felt it to be good. I don't understand how anyone can conceive of the world as perfect at all. + Show Spoiler +Perfect? Yeah, right. Thanks for proving my point. Those defects occur because of mutations of genes. There is a perfectly reasonable explanation for those effects in that babies genetic code. That baby is perfect according to the genetic code he has. We perceive him as imperfect because he does not look like most babies do. He has a difference in significant parts of his DNA than a 100% healthy baby does. The world is, therefore, perfect because he appears exactly as he was programmed to.
So the world is "perfect" because DNA exists.... wow, great argument.
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On October 24 2007 12:26 Hippopotamus wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 12:17 d0da wrote: blah blah blah
We perceive him as imperfect because he does not look like most babies do.
blah blah blah Did you ever consider following this particular line in the reverse? That is, that we perceive as perfect what we are accustomed to?
Either way what difference does it make? He's still physically perfect to the genetic code he was given.
Just like Water is 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen and appears and looks the same every time because of its chemical properties.
Genetic code varies, but what appears as the person is exactly what the code defines the person to appear as.
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On October 24 2007 12:31 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 12:17 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 12:12 Mindcrime wrote:On October 24 2007 12:04 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 01:47 travis wrote:On October 24 2007 01:34 d0da wrote: compare DNA to programming of a computer. Everything that appears on your computer screen is a bunch of 1s and 0s. This is fact and its programmed to do it by people.
You're telling me that those 4 nucleotides in our DNA just came together and paired up millions upon millions of times to create a human being out of chance? The thought of this is laughable that genetic code just randomly occured. Think about it. You're first chromosome is about 220 million base pairs long. Thats only one of 46 (23 Pairs). Adenine matched up with Guanine, and Thymine matched up with Cytosene millions and millions of times to make you're genetic code to appear as a person to everyone else and you are telling me it is just random luck and chance? Give me a break.
The leader of the Human Genome Project who's job is to discover what each and every nucleotide and chromosomes function said himself that after studying all of this its hard to not believe in Him. what does "chance" mean when you're dealing with "what could exist" absolutely nothing. when compared to a universe of nothing, whatever is possible is possible i hope that makes sense I don't see how this rebuts my post at all. The only other explanation if there is no God is that we just became out of luck. I'm not dealing with what could exist. I'm dealing with the fact of what does exist in each of our and all living things' bodies. Why is it that we have a genetic code that dictates how we look, why your arm comes off your shoulder and not out of your neck? Why is it that all animals have different codes? These codes are not simple by any means. There is people whose entire job is devoted to discovering what each piece of code does and means. The fact that there is a code at all is rather peculiar. I don't understand how people can just conceive that everything in the world is perfect because it is. In my eyes the world is perfect (physically) because God made it so, and he felt it to be good. I don't understand how anyone can conceive of the world as perfect at all. + Show Spoiler +Perfect? Yeah, right. Thanks for proving my point. Those defects occur because of mutations of genes. There is a perfectly reasonable explanation for those effects in that babies genetic code. That baby is perfect according to the genetic code he has. We perceive him as imperfect because he does not look like most babies do. He has a difference in significant parts of his DNA than a 100% healthy baby does. The world is, therefore, perfect because he appears exactly as he was programmed to. So the world is "perfect" because DNA exists.... wow, great argument.
Fine, you have no DNA what are you now? You are nothing. You are not a speck on this planet, you are no longer living. The only other thing you could be is an object which also, believe it or not , has a code that programs it to be what it is. (A compound of elements).
The world is perfect whether you like to think so or not. Chemistry, Physics, Mathematics and Genetics prove it to be so. The things you learn in these courses are called Laws for a reason.
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On October 24 2007 12:35 d0da wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 12:31 Mindcrime wrote:On October 24 2007 12:17 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 12:12 Mindcrime wrote:On October 24 2007 12:04 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 01:47 travis wrote:On October 24 2007 01:34 d0da wrote: compare DNA to programming of a computer. Everything that appears on your computer screen is a bunch of 1s and 0s. This is fact and its programmed to do it by people.
You're telling me that those 4 nucleotides in our DNA just came together and paired up millions upon millions of times to create a human being out of chance? The thought of this is laughable that genetic code just randomly occured. Think about it. You're first chromosome is about 220 million base pairs long. Thats only one of 46 (23 Pairs). Adenine matched up with Guanine, and Thymine matched up with Cytosene millions and millions of times to make you're genetic code to appear as a person to everyone else and you are telling me it is just random luck and chance? Give me a break.
The leader of the Human Genome Project who's job is to discover what each and every nucleotide and chromosomes function said himself that after studying all of this its hard to not believe in Him. what does "chance" mean when you're dealing with "what could exist" absolutely nothing. when compared to a universe of nothing, whatever is possible is possible i hope that makes sense I don't see how this rebuts my post at all. The only other explanation if there is no God is that we just became out of luck. I'm not dealing with what could exist. I'm dealing with the fact of what does exist in each of our and all living things' bodies. Why is it that we have a genetic code that dictates how we look, why your arm comes off your shoulder and not out of your neck? Why is it that all animals have different codes? These codes are not simple by any means. There is people whose entire job is devoted to discovering what each piece of code does and means. The fact that there is a code at all is rather peculiar. I don't understand how people can just conceive that everything in the world is perfect because it is. In my eyes the world is perfect (physically) because God made it so, and he felt it to be good. I don't understand how anyone can conceive of the world as perfect at all. + Show Spoiler +Perfect? Yeah, right. Thanks for proving my point. Those defects occur because of mutations of genes. There is a perfectly reasonable explanation for those effects in that babies genetic code. That baby is perfect according to the genetic code he has. We perceive him as imperfect because he does not look like most babies do. He has a difference in significant parts of his DNA than a 100% healthy baby does. The world is, therefore, perfect because he appears exactly as he was programmed to. So the world is "perfect" because DNA exists.... wow, great argument. Fine, you have no DNA what are you now? You are nothing. You are not a speck on this planet, you are no longer living. The only other thing you could be is an object which also, believe it or not , has a code that programs it to be what it is. (periodic table of elements).
I fail to see how that makes the world "perfect".
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first of all Einstein never belived in a person god he thought the whole idea of a relgion involving a person god (which all do) was ridicolous it is a common misconception to think that the was a really relgious guy i think u will find this is true for most of the people you are thinking of
secondly you cant prove god exists you cant prove got doesnt exist so why believe he exists?
i can claim that there is a teapot orbiting the sun u could never disprove, the number of possible orbits and the resolution of current telescopes are not good enough there is no evidence to suggest that the teapot actually exists
so god existing is an unnecessary hypothesis it is redundant it is dangerous
relgion is far inferior to science ridicolously so
science is based on evidence relgion is making up some answer (which is most likely wrong) to a question we dont know how to answer which at some point in the future science answers but due to the irrational nature of religion people will still believe
as for a good reason behind religion it most likely started off as a tool by which groups of people are able to stay together it encourages community it was useful thousands of thousands of years ago
On October 23 2007 22:16 dream-_- wrote: This has always been something I have wondered about, sometimes rather vocally. However the past week or so I have been really looking into the history of religion, specifically Christianity, simply trying to understand how it came off to be such a worldwide phenomenon.
This is mainly a question to anyone religious. I am going to try and keep from turning this into another argument over religious views, because I strongly want to understand and be educated.
I am going to do a small rant simply to attempt and get my ideas out there and hope that people will respond accordingly.
I am stumped at how religion has such a strong hold on people. I can understand people looking to bring reason to the unknown and to answer questions like “why are we here” and the general unanswerable questions about life. However I know that there are intelligent, logical people who are also strong believers in religion. Albert Einstein for one.
One of the things I have seen religious supporters say repeatedly during the time I have spent looking into the history of religion, is that god can't be proven or disproved; he can only be understood through faith. However where is that faith coming from. It just seems completely random in my mind. That to me gives a reason against rather than for.
To give you some example of this, if tomorrow god appears before us, and claims that Christianity is the 'true' religion and that they got it completely right, I would still consider it absurd that people believed it (up until the point that god himself spoke of course). Why? Because they still had absolutely nothing to base it on.
Perhaps god exists, perhaps he doesn’t. Chances are we will never know. People have worshiped thousands of gods over the course of human recorded history and thousands more before that. The point is, nothing puts any one god or religion in front of another in terms of possibility (believability is a different story, but given human history it seems it’s all too easy to believe something without good reason).
I suppose my view is somewhat depressing, kind of a "don’t try because you will never know" idea(although shouldnt say never know really, don't know would be more acurate). To be honest I wish I could believe in god, because I think it would make life a whole lot easier. I think that is one of the main reasons I am asking this question, even if I doubt it will change my mind.
edit - One last thing, I don't need to hear about how religion is worse than science because science is lookiing for answers while religion is claiming truth, looking for answers to fit it's truth, all that I can come up with just fine on my own, and im sure we have all heard it plenty. What I haven't heard is a good reason behind religion, wich is what im lookiing for.
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On October 24 2007 03:52 LonelyMargarita wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 03:46 travis wrote: I don't even get why einstein's opinion on god is put in such high regard anyways Because if the most intelligent people in the world believed in God (Einstein, Hawking), it puts a big damper on anyone that tries to disprove god with "logic." If anyone would have done it, they would have. Most people have a very limited view of logic though, and somehow think that you can prove or disprove God with it.
they dont believe in a personnal god their beliefs are very different to a normal religious person
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On October 24 2007 12:36 Mindcrime wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 12:35 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 12:31 Mindcrime wrote:On October 24 2007 12:17 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 12:12 Mindcrime wrote:On October 24 2007 12:04 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 01:47 travis wrote:On October 24 2007 01:34 d0da wrote: compare DNA to programming of a computer. Everything that appears on your computer screen is a bunch of 1s and 0s. This is fact and its programmed to do it by people.
You're telling me that those 4 nucleotides in our DNA just came together and paired up millions upon millions of times to create a human being out of chance? The thought of this is laughable that genetic code just randomly occured. Think about it. You're first chromosome is about 220 million base pairs long. Thats only one of 46 (23 Pairs). Adenine matched up with Guanine, and Thymine matched up with Cytosene millions and millions of times to make you're genetic code to appear as a person to everyone else and you are telling me it is just random luck and chance? Give me a break.
The leader of the Human Genome Project who's job is to discover what each and every nucleotide and chromosomes function said himself that after studying all of this its hard to not believe in Him. what does "chance" mean when you're dealing with "what could exist" absolutely nothing. when compared to a universe of nothing, whatever is possible is possible i hope that makes sense I don't see how this rebuts my post at all. The only other explanation if there is no God is that we just became out of luck. I'm not dealing with what could exist. I'm dealing with the fact of what does exist in each of our and all living things' bodies. Why is it that we have a genetic code that dictates how we look, why your arm comes off your shoulder and not out of your neck? Why is it that all animals have different codes? These codes are not simple by any means. There is people whose entire job is devoted to discovering what each piece of code does and means. The fact that there is a code at all is rather peculiar. I don't understand how people can just conceive that everything in the world is perfect because it is. In my eyes the world is perfect (physically) because God made it so, and he felt it to be good. I don't understand how anyone can conceive of the world as perfect at all. + Show Spoiler +Perfect? Yeah, right. Thanks for proving my point. Those defects occur because of mutations of genes. There is a perfectly reasonable explanation for those effects in that babies genetic code. That baby is perfect according to the genetic code he has. We perceive him as imperfect because he does not look like most babies do. He has a difference in significant parts of his DNA than a 100% healthy baby does. The world is, therefore, perfect because he appears exactly as he was programmed to. So the world is "perfect" because DNA exists.... wow, great argument. Fine, you have no DNA what are you now? You are nothing. You are not a speck on this planet, you are no longer living. The only other thing you could be is an object which also, believe it or not , has a code that programs it to be what it is. (periodic table of elements). I fail to see how that makes the world "perfect".
Here's an example of what is not perfect.
The compound H2O (Water) appears as a rock at 100 Degrees Celsius at 1 atm.
This is physically impossible. It can not happen ever. Why? Because the properties of water define it to boil and turn into a GAS at the given variables. If you put H2O under these conditions I can safely bet that 100 out of 100 times it will boil and turn into a gas. This is why I can confidently say the world is perfect (As, I believe, God made it to be).
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On October 24 2007 12:31 d0da wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 12:26 Hippopotamus wrote:On October 24 2007 12:17 d0da wrote: blah blah blah
We perceive him as imperfect because he does not look like most babies do.
blah blah blah Did you ever consider following this particular line in the reverse? That is, that we perceive as perfect what we are accustomed to? Either way what difference does it make? He's still physically perfect to the genetic code he was given. Just like Water is 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen and appears and looks the same every time because of its chemical properties. Genetic code varies, but what appears as the person is exactly what the code defines the person to appear as.
exactly, it is all perception so using it as a reason for God is pointless;o
You also seem to be giving 2 ultimatums, God or chance. I would refer you to the anthropic principle first which basically says, the very fact that we are here discussing this means it didn't happen any other way, regardless of the initial "probability."
What I really want to point out, is that God is not an alternative to chance at all. You are assuming God doesn't need a creator, or he has always existed. If you are going to assume that, why not assume that about the universe?
To go off on a tangent, many theists see God as a reasonable explanation because they are looking for that uncaused-first cause. They also complain about how hard it is to imagine we got here by chance. "God" is not automatically exempt from the same rules as everything else just because he is defined as so. The point is, anything could be that uncaused-first cause, even the universe itself. And if you want to talk about chance, what is more likely, small molecular particles coming into existence or a fully functional, intelligent, omnipotent being that came from nothing.
Once again you could say that "God has always existed", but just like before, you could apply that same line of thought to anything.
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On October 24 2007 12:40 d0da wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 12:36 Mindcrime wrote:On October 24 2007 12:35 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 12:31 Mindcrime wrote:On October 24 2007 12:17 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 12:12 Mindcrime wrote:On October 24 2007 12:04 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 01:47 travis wrote:On October 24 2007 01:34 d0da wrote: compare DNA to programming of a computer. Everything that appears on your computer screen is a bunch of 1s and 0s. This is fact and its programmed to do it by people.
You're telling me that those 4 nucleotides in our DNA just came together and paired up millions upon millions of times to create a human being out of chance? The thought of this is laughable that genetic code just randomly occured. Think about it. You're first chromosome is about 220 million base pairs long. Thats only one of 46 (23 Pairs). Adenine matched up with Guanine, and Thymine matched up with Cytosene millions and millions of times to make you're genetic code to appear as a person to everyone else and you are telling me it is just random luck and chance? Give me a break.
The leader of the Human Genome Project who's job is to discover what each and every nucleotide and chromosomes function said himself that after studying all of this its hard to not believe in Him. what does "chance" mean when you're dealing with "what could exist" absolutely nothing. when compared to a universe of nothing, whatever is possible is possible i hope that makes sense I don't see how this rebuts my post at all. The only other explanation if there is no God is that we just became out of luck. I'm not dealing with what could exist. I'm dealing with the fact of what does exist in each of our and all living things' bodies. Why is it that we have a genetic code that dictates how we look, why your arm comes off your shoulder and not out of your neck? Why is it that all animals have different codes? These codes are not simple by any means. There is people whose entire job is devoted to discovering what each piece of code does and means. The fact that there is a code at all is rather peculiar. I don't understand how people can just conceive that everything in the world is perfect because it is. In my eyes the world is perfect (physically) because God made it so, and he felt it to be good. I don't understand how anyone can conceive of the world as perfect at all. + Show Spoiler +Perfect? Yeah, right. Thanks for proving my point. Those defects occur because of mutations of genes. There is a perfectly reasonable explanation for those effects in that babies genetic code. That baby is perfect according to the genetic code he has. We perceive him as imperfect because he does not look like most babies do. He has a difference in significant parts of his DNA than a 100% healthy baby does. The world is, therefore, perfect because he appears exactly as he was programmed to. So the world is "perfect" because DNA exists.... wow, great argument. Fine, you have no DNA what are you now? You are nothing. You are not a speck on this planet, you are no longer living. The only other thing you could be is an object which also, believe it or not , has a code that programs it to be what it is. (periodic table of elements). I fail to see how that makes the world "perfect". Here's an example of what is not perfect. The compound H2O (Water) appears as a rock at 100 Degrees Celsius at 1 atm. This is physically impossible. It can not happen ever. Why? Because the properties of water define it to boil and turn into a GAS at the given variables. If you put H2O under these conditions I can safely bet that 100 out of 100 times it will boil and turn into a gas. This is why I can confidently say the world is perfect (As, I believe, God made it to be).
Once again, the Anthropic Principle. The universe is what it is and couldn't be any other way. You just take what you see and label it as perfect, but with that logic, you would do so in any other possible universe.
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On October 24 2007 12:40 d0da wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 12:36 Mindcrime wrote:On October 24 2007 12:35 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 12:31 Mindcrime wrote:On October 24 2007 12:17 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 12:12 Mindcrime wrote:On October 24 2007 12:04 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 01:47 travis wrote:On October 24 2007 01:34 d0da wrote: compare DNA to programming of a computer. Everything that appears on your computer screen is a bunch of 1s and 0s. This is fact and its programmed to do it by people.
You're telling me that those 4 nucleotides in our DNA just came together and paired up millions upon millions of times to create a human being out of chance? The thought of this is laughable that genetic code just randomly occured. Think about it. You're first chromosome is about 220 million base pairs long. Thats only one of 46 (23 Pairs). Adenine matched up with Guanine, and Thymine matched up with Cytosene millions and millions of times to make you're genetic code to appear as a person to everyone else and you are telling me it is just random luck and chance? Give me a break.
The leader of the Human Genome Project who's job is to discover what each and every nucleotide and chromosomes function said himself that after studying all of this its hard to not believe in Him. what does "chance" mean when you're dealing with "what could exist" absolutely nothing. when compared to a universe of nothing, whatever is possible is possible i hope that makes sense I don't see how this rebuts my post at all. The only other explanation if there is no God is that we just became out of luck. I'm not dealing with what could exist. I'm dealing with the fact of what does exist in each of our and all living things' bodies. Why is it that we have a genetic code that dictates how we look, why your arm comes off your shoulder and not out of your neck? Why is it that all animals have different codes? These codes are not simple by any means. There is people whose entire job is devoted to discovering what each piece of code does and means. The fact that there is a code at all is rather peculiar. I don't understand how people can just conceive that everything in the world is perfect because it is. In my eyes the world is perfect (physically) because God made it so, and he felt it to be good. I don't understand how anyone can conceive of the world as perfect at all. + Show Spoiler +Perfect? Yeah, right. Thanks for proving my point. Those defects occur because of mutations of genes. There is a perfectly reasonable explanation for those effects in that babies genetic code. That baby is perfect according to the genetic code he has. We perceive him as imperfect because he does not look like most babies do. He has a difference in significant parts of his DNA than a 100% healthy baby does. The world is, therefore, perfect because he appears exactly as he was programmed to. So the world is "perfect" because DNA exists.... wow, great argument. Fine, you have no DNA what are you now? You are nothing. You are not a speck on this planet, you are no longer living. The only other thing you could be is an object which also, believe it or not , has a code that programs it to be what it is. (periodic table of elements). I fail to see how that makes the world "perfect". Here's an example of what is not perfect. The compound H2O (Water) appears as a rock at 100 Degrees Celsius at 1 atm. This is physically impossible. It can not happen ever. Why? Because the properties of water define it to boil and turn into a GAS at the given variables. If you put H2O under these conditions I can safely bet that 100 out of 100 times it will boil and turn into a gas. This is why I can confidently say the world is perfect (As, I believe, God made it to be).
Such things hold true on the macroscopic level but not on the microscopic level.
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On October 24 2007 12:46 OverTheUnder wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 12:40 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 12:36 Mindcrime wrote:On October 24 2007 12:35 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 12:31 Mindcrime wrote:On October 24 2007 12:17 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 12:12 Mindcrime wrote:On October 24 2007 12:04 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 01:47 travis wrote:On October 24 2007 01:34 d0da wrote: compare DNA to programming of a computer. Everything that appears on your computer screen is a bunch of 1s and 0s. This is fact and its programmed to do it by people.
You're telling me that those 4 nucleotides in our DNA just came together and paired up millions upon millions of times to create a human being out of chance? The thought of this is laughable that genetic code just randomly occured. Think about it. You're first chromosome is about 220 million base pairs long. Thats only one of 46 (23 Pairs). Adenine matched up with Guanine, and Thymine matched up with Cytosene millions and millions of times to make you're genetic code to appear as a person to everyone else and you are telling me it is just random luck and chance? Give me a break.
The leader of the Human Genome Project who's job is to discover what each and every nucleotide and chromosomes function said himself that after studying all of this its hard to not believe in Him. what does "chance" mean when you're dealing with "what could exist" absolutely nothing. when compared to a universe of nothing, whatever is possible is possible i hope that makes sense I don't see how this rebuts my post at all. The only other explanation if there is no God is that we just became out of luck. I'm not dealing with what could exist. I'm dealing with the fact of what does exist in each of our and all living things' bodies. Why is it that we have a genetic code that dictates how we look, why your arm comes off your shoulder and not out of your neck? Why is it that all animals have different codes? These codes are not simple by any means. There is people whose entire job is devoted to discovering what each piece of code does and means. The fact that there is a code at all is rather peculiar. I don't understand how people can just conceive that everything in the world is perfect because it is. In my eyes the world is perfect (physically) because God made it so, and he felt it to be good. I don't understand how anyone can conceive of the world as perfect at all. + Show Spoiler +Perfect? Yeah, right. Thanks for proving my point. Those defects occur because of mutations of genes. There is a perfectly reasonable explanation for those effects in that babies genetic code. That baby is perfect according to the genetic code he has. We perceive him as imperfect because he does not look like most babies do. He has a difference in significant parts of his DNA than a 100% healthy baby does. The world is, therefore, perfect because he appears exactly as he was programmed to. So the world is "perfect" because DNA exists.... wow, great argument. Fine, you have no DNA what are you now? You are nothing. You are not a speck on this planet, you are no longer living. The only other thing you could be is an object which also, believe it or not , has a code that programs it to be what it is. (periodic table of elements). I fail to see how that makes the world "perfect". Here's an example of what is not perfect. The compound H2O (Water) appears as a rock at 100 Degrees Celsius at 1 atm. This is physically impossible. It can not happen ever. Why? Because the properties of water define it to boil and turn into a GAS at the given variables. If you put H2O under these conditions I can safely bet that 100 out of 100 times it will boil and turn into a gas. This is why I can confidently say the world is perfect (As, I believe, God made it to be). Once again, the Anthropic Principle. The universe is what it is and couldn't be any other way. You just take what you see and label it as perfect, but with that logic, you would do so in any other possible universe.
It's perfect because it appears the same way every time (In our Universe). The results are predictable. All things that occur physically in our world are predictable because we understand how they function and why they function as they do. This is why the world is perfect, everything that occurs, occurs not by chance but because of laws. The Laws of Physics, the laws of chemistry. If there was an alternate universe would no laws of any sort apply? (Even if they are different laws than ours?) And if they do not, then is it not perfect that that particular universe is defined to be completely "imperfect" (based on how we are using the term perfect).
Also if the Universe can just simply exist (As some say), then why can't God do the same?
We all agree something had to simply exist. It either has to be God that simply exists, or the universe. The argument that God can't simply exist is meaningless because either way one of them does simply exist. I believe it to be God because at least then there is a reason why things occur the way they do.
This argument is truly intangible for the human mind to comprehend. It goes beyond anything the mind can conceive as possible.
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On October 24 2007 12:54 d0da wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 12:46 OverTheUnder wrote:On October 24 2007 12:40 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 12:36 Mindcrime wrote:On October 24 2007 12:35 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 12:31 Mindcrime wrote:On October 24 2007 12:17 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 12:12 Mindcrime wrote:On October 24 2007 12:04 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 01:47 travis wrote: [quote]
what does "chance" mean when you're dealing with "what could exist" absolutely nothing.
when compared to a universe of nothing, whatever is possible is possible
i hope that makes sense I don't see how this rebuts my post at all. The only other explanation if there is no God is that we just became out of luck. I'm not dealing with what could exist. I'm dealing with the fact of what does exist in each of our and all living things' bodies. Why is it that we have a genetic code that dictates how we look, why your arm comes off your shoulder and not out of your neck? Why is it that all animals have different codes? These codes are not simple by any means. There is people whose entire job is devoted to discovering what each piece of code does and means. The fact that there is a code at all is rather peculiar. I don't understand how people can just conceive that everything in the world is perfect because it is. In my eyes the world is perfect (physically) because God made it so, and he felt it to be good. I don't understand how anyone can conceive of the world as perfect at all. + Show Spoiler +Perfect? Yeah, right. Thanks for proving my point. Those defects occur because of mutations of genes. There is a perfectly reasonable explanation for those effects in that babies genetic code. That baby is perfect according to the genetic code he has. We perceive him as imperfect because he does not look like most babies do. He has a difference in significant parts of his DNA than a 100% healthy baby does. The world is, therefore, perfect because he appears exactly as he was programmed to. So the world is "perfect" because DNA exists.... wow, great argument. Fine, you have no DNA what are you now? You are nothing. You are not a speck on this planet, you are no longer living. The only other thing you could be is an object which also, believe it or not , has a code that programs it to be what it is. (periodic table of elements). I fail to see how that makes the world "perfect". Here's an example of what is not perfect. The compound H2O (Water) appears as a rock at 100 Degrees Celsius at 1 atm. This is physically impossible. It can not happen ever. Why? Because the properties of water define it to boil and turn into a GAS at the given variables. If you put H2O under these conditions I can safely bet that 100 out of 100 times it will boil and turn into a gas. This is why I can confidently say the world is perfect (As, I believe, God made it to be). Once again, the Anthropic Principle. The universe is what it is and couldn't be any other way. You just take what you see and label it as perfect, but with that logic, you would do so in any other possible universe. It's perfect because it appears the same way every time (In our Universe). The results are predictable. All things that occur physically in our world are predictable because we understand how they function and why they function as they do. This is why the world is perfect, everything that occurs, occurs not by chance but because of laws. The Laws of Physics, the laws of chemistry. If there was an alternate universe would no laws of any sort apply? (Even if they are different laws than ours?) And if they do not, then is it not perfect that that particular universe is defined to be completely "imperfect" (based on how we are using the term perfect).
hmm you seem to be missing the point, or maybe I'm just not being clearT_T
If the universe were to have different laws, and was able to end up producing you to think about it, you would still call it perfect no matter what because the universe would be formed around THOSE laws so everything would seem to "fit."
A more familiar example is that many would claim the earth is perfect for us, so it must have been designed for us. What actually happened is that we evolved on this earth so WE fit it. So you could call earth a perfect home for us, but if we lived on any other planet and were able to evolve, we would seem to perfectly "fit" the planet we evolved on;)
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On October 24 2007 13:01 OverTheUnder wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 12:54 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 12:46 OverTheUnder wrote:On October 24 2007 12:40 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 12:36 Mindcrime wrote:On October 24 2007 12:35 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 12:31 Mindcrime wrote:On October 24 2007 12:17 d0da wrote:On October 24 2007 12:12 Mindcrime wrote:On October 24 2007 12:04 d0da wrote: [quote]
I don't see how this rebuts my post at all. The only other explanation if there is no God is that we just became out of luck. I'm not dealing with what could exist. I'm dealing with the fact of what does exist in each of our and all living things' bodies. Why is it that we have a genetic code that dictates how we look, why your arm comes off your shoulder and not out of your neck? Why is it that all animals have different codes? These codes are not simple by any means. There is people whose entire job is devoted to discovering what each piece of code does and means. The fact that there is a code at all is rather peculiar. I don't understand how people can just conceive that everything in the world is perfect because it is. In my eyes the world is perfect (physically) because God made it so, and he felt it to be good. I don't understand how anyone can conceive of the world as perfect at all. + Show Spoiler +Perfect? Yeah, right. Thanks for proving my point. Those defects occur because of mutations of genes. There is a perfectly reasonable explanation for those effects in that babies genetic code. That baby is perfect according to the genetic code he has. We perceive him as imperfect because he does not look like most babies do. He has a difference in significant parts of his DNA than a 100% healthy baby does. The world is, therefore, perfect because he appears exactly as he was programmed to. So the world is "perfect" because DNA exists.... wow, great argument. Fine, you have no DNA what are you now? You are nothing. You are not a speck on this planet, you are no longer living. The only other thing you could be is an object which also, believe it or not , has a code that programs it to be what it is. (periodic table of elements). I fail to see how that makes the world "perfect". Here's an example of what is not perfect. The compound H2O (Water) appears as a rock at 100 Degrees Celsius at 1 atm. This is physically impossible. It can not happen ever. Why? Because the properties of water define it to boil and turn into a GAS at the given variables. If you put H2O under these conditions I can safely bet that 100 out of 100 times it will boil and turn into a gas. This is why I can confidently say the world is perfect (As, I believe, God made it to be). Once again, the Anthropic Principle. The universe is what it is and couldn't be any other way. You just take what you see and label it as perfect, but with that logic, you would do so in any other possible universe. It's perfect because it appears the same way every time (In our Universe). The results are predictable. All things that occur physically in our world are predictable because we understand how they function and why they function as they do. This is why the world is perfect, everything that occurs, occurs not by chance but because of laws. The Laws of Physics, the laws of chemistry. If there was an alternate universe would no laws of any sort apply? (Even if they are different laws than ours?) And if they do not, then is it not perfect that that particular universe is defined to be completely "imperfect" (based on how we are using the term perfect). hmm you seem to be missing the point, or maybe I'm just not being clearT_T If the universe were to have different laws, and was able to end up producing you to think about it, you would still call it perfect no matter what because the universe would be formed around THOSE laws so everything would seem to "fit." A more familiar example is that many would claim the earth is perfect for us, so it must have been designed for us. What actually happened is that we evolved on this earth so WE fit it. So you could call earth a perfect home for us, but if we lived on any other planet and were able to evolve, we would seem to perfectly "fit" the planet we evolved on;)
This still explains perfection though, some way something occurred for us to reach the perfection to fit the earth. Can evolution be argued to be predictable? I'd like to think so based on Darwin's theories.
I'm fairly positive I understand where you are coming from and I just may not be communicating my ideas clear enough back to you.
I truly think we are beyond the comprehension of the human mind because either everything is, in fact, perfect or everything is, in fact, only perceived to be perfect. It can not be both, nor can it be proved to be one. This statement returns us to is there a God? If there is then most likely everything IS perfect, if there is not, then everything is only PERCEIVED to be perfect. This is where human intuition comes in and we get the concept of faith. We only know what we think we know. We could in fact know nothing of perfection, only what we perceive to be.
I see the world as perfect because I have faith in God.
I really think we can't be any clearer with each other.
This is probably the most fascinating thing a person can think about because you could think about it literally until you died and you still would jerk yourself back and forth.
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On October 24 2007 05:44 MoltkeWarding wrote: Again, what is the relationship of evolution, which is a theory on biological change, to the necessarily constant apparati governing the universe which preclude human understanding?
No, evolution is about surviving of the fittest, it doesn't matter if that is chemicals, stars or anything else same logic apply.
On October 24 2007 05:44 MoltkeWarding wrote:Furthermore it's irrelevant whether this intelligence exists as part of an external being or whether it is only being defined as a metaphysical relationship to human understanding. If we attribute intelligence to God, it is trascendental anyhow and may only be defined by relation to familiar terms such as religion or forces of nature. The clarification of the point is essential if we want to include the way in which we understand the universe into the equation, since self-knowledge pre-empts knowledge of those things external to us.
Clarify based on what? Before we have no proven theory describing big bang or pre big band era if it existed then we can't assume anything like that. We already have theory that proves alternative solution watchmaker argument loose it ground, we can't be close minded now to other possibilities then planned or random.
On October 24 2007 05:44 MoltkeWarding wrote:Well the Christian value of Good necessarily rests on Platonism, the belief of Good external to particular acts or persons.
But they are impossible to understand priest often say that. They can't explain how he is doing it, or why that. When somebody is sick they say that Gob will is impossible to understand when they got to the corner of they arguments.
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MyLostTemple
United States2921 Posts
On October 24 2007 12:07 Klogon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2007 07:12 MyLostTemple wrote:On October 24 2007 05:37 LonelyMargarita wrote:On October 24 2007 05:13 MyLostTemple wrote:On October 24 2007 04:23 LonelyMargarita wrote:On October 24 2007 03:43 MyLostTemple wrote: albert einstien was not a christian.
Christianity is the most wide spread religion because Christian colonies have been roaming across the world throughout history forcing everyone to convert to Christianity after they arrived. It's been built on the blood and force of your ancestors. It's not so much a phenomenon as a historical fact. Now we have so many forms of Christianity you can't even count them all and at the same time atheism is growing at a rate never seen before.
i don't think there's anything depressing about not believing in god. in fact, i find it liberating. This is (for the majority) exactly why people were religious in the past, but I don't think it explains why people remain religious today, or why secular people convert with no religious upbringing. I think that might be what the OP is after. people are religious today because it helps them cope with reality. It's that simple. People want to feel like they have a very congruent alignment with morality and Truth. It also helps people who have lost loved ones, they can pray and believe that they will meet those people in heaven and be in harmony. As Karl Marx has said: "Religion is the opium of the masses." It makes people feel good. I have also encountered this strange belief with some Christians where they think that if religion were to die, morality would die with it. This is completely illogical, if anything, we could find a more concise form of morality by not digging through the bible and religious dogma for answers. Morals and ethics can come just as easily with out fictitious supernatural beings guiding us to answers. The bottom line is most people don't bother questioning their origins or their own religions. They simple feed on what they are given, lead an average life, and then die, high on their religious opium from the beginning. They are sheep who never stray far from the heard. You are speaking in generalities about the masses of people that are ignorant about religion, completely ignoring those that are educated on the matter You make it seem like you've thought it all through and that anyone else who does the same would also be atheist. This is simply not the case. There are very intelligent religious people who know most everything about every religion. They cannot be described as "sheep" or as people looking to fill a void or in search of morals. The most intelligent people i know and have read are athiest or at least agnostic, so yes. Intelligent people that i know or have read that ARE religious are very loosely affiliated, they are not bound to religious dogma so heavily that they abide by everything their religion tells them to do. The rest of the people who i have read and also find to be intelligent were around before science had made so many break troughs. People like Aquinas come into play here. Ofcourse there are intelligent people who are religious, it's not black and white. Does this mean they're right? no. It boils down to the fact that some people want to use facts and reason while others want to give up conclusions to faith. I would probably argue they enjoy comfort over reality. Regardless you can't use 'intelligent people you know about' as an argument that religion is somehow intelligent in any form. This is completely bullshit and you've just successfully shown how ignorant you are of the matter.
rereading it i wasn't stating my arguments well, just my opinions. sorry for sounding rude. i just don't believe in religion at all though and i don't see why people should stress so much about religious beliefs when i feel we can be fine without it.
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On October 24 2007 12:54 d0da wrote:
Also if the Universe can just simply exist (As some say), then why can't God do the same?
We all agree something had to simply exist. It either has to be God that simply exists, or the universe. The argument that God can't simply exist is meaningless because either way one of them does simply exist. I believe it to be God because at least then there is a reason why things occur the way they do.
The necessary complexity of the universe in its beginning is far lower than the necessary complexity of a creator god. I believe complexity comes into the world late as a result of many small gradual incremental steps. Just like the first life on earth was simple I believe the first things to exists is a lot more likely to be simple.
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