Is banning worth it? - Page 6
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
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banged
United States46 Posts
problem with TL is that mods dotn think twice before banning someone, its just too casual | ||
dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
On October 24 2008 04:04 Kwark wrote: Go read the gg.net forums then tell us banning doesn't make a forum better. The moderation weeds out the people who have nothing to contribute but feel like doing it anyway and keeps the rest of us making quality posts. There's no point in anyone doing anything for tl if the community sucks. Banning not only improves (or prevents) the posts of the bad it also encourages the good posters to contribute. then how the hell am i still here | ||
Daigomi
South Africa4316 Posts
On October 26 2008 17:56 banged wrote: honestly i think this forum specifically lost a lot of its flavor by banning some charismatic users, i.e. Chibi or w/e his name was. How do u get banned from a bw website for being a pedophile? It was mentioned above that many old posters got banned eventually. Often times theres things u should close your eyes on. And we not talking about blatant spamming/bming, people get banned for many more reasons problem with TL is that mods dotn think twice before banning someone, its just too casual So you don't think people should be banned for posting perverted pictures of children every now and again? I mean, I'm also saddened to see someone with a 7000 post count banned, but the fact of the matter is that there are certain forms of behaviour that just aren't acceptable, regardless of the topic of the forum. Furthermore, if Chibi had kept his opinions to himself on the matter, no-one needed ever know. It was the fact that he flaunted it constantly that got him banned. | ||
Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17709 Posts
On October 26 2008 01:34 Kallepettersen wrote: hm I dont really get the concept of banning, especially the extreme forms it has taken on tl.net. Imo a forum is to voice your opinion and read the opinion of others, I dont wanna socialize or "build a reputation" on a damn internet forum. People who judge the content of a post by the postcount of the poster are beyond help anyway imo. Thats why I got banned like 3 times already, I dont care about postcount and voice my opinion even If I know the majority of users will dislike it. I didnt really flame either. Last ban I called Idra ignorant for thinking pro gamer muta micro is learnable by everyone in 2 days. Even If I had no reason at all other than Idras general attitude to call him ignorant I hardly see anything wrong with it, Its kind of retarded if someone with 5000 posts can run around and behave like an ass and when you name him "ignorant" for a specific thing he said, you get banned. I proceeded to ask Chill if he uses 2 hat mut or 3 hat mut more often nowadays, instead of an answer I got a ban. I didnt really mean it in an offensive way, just was curious cus Chill seems to think 2 hat mut is superior to 3 hat mut so I wanted to know If he already follows his own strategic belief. Others in the same thread called me asshole, a far more serious insult imo, but hey its ok to flame some low post user if the majority dislikes him, nobody got banned for that of course. The account before that I got banned because I told carnac he doesnt have to behave like a nerd, just because he was on a nerd school (I was on the same school, so just trust me when I say its true, its a special school). I didnt just tell him that out of the blue and it also wasnt really meant as an insult, I just posted it because obviously he had been at home watching the euro soccer quarter and semifinal with Germany in front of his conputer, which is just a really nerdy thing to do in Germany, where soccer is sooo big. If I had sucked dick for 2500 posts I could go ahead and flame everyone out of "fun" like Inc or Idra or even Rekrul do, but since I dont care and dont really want to flame senseless I am fine by posting whatever I think is appropriate and getting banned for it over and over again, because some people just cant stand to hear a bit of provocative criticism. you have got to be kidding me | ||
dream-_-
United States1857 Posts
On October 24 2008 15:31 Physician wrote: - of course at times people will refuse to follow common social rules and leave a forum no other recourse but to ban and exclude - but I will argue that banning ultimately is failure for any forum aspiring growth and developement.. I know it might be hard concept to follow through for some but you can actually do without banning in the vast majority of cases simply by using other approaches that promote more positive and inclusive attirbutes in all of us.. - anyway the main problem with banning is not with banning itself.. banning is nothing more than just one more forum moderation tool.. the real problem with banning is with its application: if you have a retard moderator, banning will always be a negative influence on the forum and will only hurt the forum in the long run etc.. banning is as good or as bad as the moderator's wisdom and criteria doing the banning.. (in fact good moderators usually moderate by setting a higher example and tend to avoid banning unless left with no other option). Your talking as if we are a society. We aren't. In the long term for society yes I would agree with this, but banning is a faster and easier short term solution. Edit - And I have faith in our forum mods. | ||
Chill
Calgary25938 Posts
On October 26 2008 01:34 Kallepettersen wrote: hm I dont really get the concept of banning, especially the extreme forms it has taken on tl.net. Imo a forum is to voice your opinion and read the opinion of others, I dont wanna socialize or "build a reputation" on a damn internet forum. People who judge the content of a post by the postcount of the poster are beyond help anyway imo. Thats why I got banned like 3 times already, I dont care about postcount and voice my opinion even If I know the majority of users will dislike it. I didnt really flame either. Last ban I called Idra ignorant for thinking pro gamer muta micro is learnable by everyone in 2 days. Even If I had no reason at all other than Idras general attitude to call him ignorant I hardly see anything wrong with it, Its kind of retarded if someone with 5000 posts can run around and behave like an ass and when you name him "ignorant" for a specific thing he said, you get banned. I proceeded to ask Chill if he uses 2 hat mut or 3 hat mut more often nowadays, instead of an answer I got a ban. I didnt really mean it in an offensive way, just was curious cus Chill seems to think 2 hat mut is superior to 3 hat mut so I wanted to know If he already follows his own strategic belief. Others in the same thread called me asshole, a far more serious insult imo, but hey its ok to flame some low post user if the majority dislikes him, nobody got banned for that of course. The account before that I got banned because I told carnac he doesnt have to behave like a nerd, just because he was on a nerd school (I was on the same school, so just trust me when I say its true, its a special school). I didnt just tell him that out of the blue and it also wasnt really meant as an insult, I just posted it because obviously he had been at home watching the euro soccer quarter and semifinal with Germany in front of his conputer, which is just a really nerdy thing to do in Germany, where soccer is sooo big. If I had sucked dick for 2500 posts I could go ahead and flame everyone out of "fun" like Inc or Idra or even Rekrul do, but since I dont care and dont really want to flame senseless I am fine by posting whatever I think is appropriate and getting banned for it over and over again, because some people just cant stand to hear a bit of provocative criticism. I guarantee this didn't happen. If it did, post your AKA so i can get to the bottom of it. | ||
zatic
Zurich15239 Posts
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Ilvy
Germany2445 Posts
On October 26 2008 01:34 Kallepettersen wrote: hm I dont really get the concept of banning, especially the extreme forms it has taken on tl.net. Imo a forum is to voice your opinion and read the opinion of others, I dont wanna socialize or "build a reputation" on a damn internet forum. People who judge the content of a post by the postcount of the poster are beyond help anyway imo. Thats why I got banned like 3 times already, I dont care about postcount and voice my opinion even If I know the majority of users will dislike it. I didnt really flame either. Last ban I called Idra ignorant for thinking pro gamer muta micro is learnable by everyone in 2 days. Even If I had no reason at all other than Idras general attitude to call him ignorant I hardly see anything wrong with it, Its kind of retarded if someone with 5000 posts can run around and behave like an ass and when you name him "ignorant" for a specific thing he said, you get banned. I proceeded to ask Chill if he uses 2 hat mut or 3 hat mut more often nowadays, instead of an answer I got a ban. I didnt really mean it in an offensive way, just was curious cus Chill seems to think 2 hat mut is superior to 3 hat mut so I wanted to know If he already follows his own strategic belief. Others in the same thread called me asshole, a far more serious insult imo, but hey its ok to flame some low post user if the majority dislikes him, nobody got banned for that of course. The account before that I got banned because I told carnac he doesnt have to behave like a nerd, just because he was on a nerd school (I was on the same school, so just trust me when I say its true, its a special school). I didnt just tell him that out of the blue and it also wasnt really meant as an insult, I just posted it because obviously he had been at home watching the euro soccer quarter and semifinal with Germany in front of his conputer, which is just a really nerdy thing to do in Germany, where soccer is sooo big. If I had sucked dick for 2500 posts I could go ahead and flame everyone out of "fun" like Inc or Idra or even Rekrul do, but since I dont care and dont really want to flame senseless I am fine by posting whatever I think is appropriate and getting banned for it over and over again, because some people just cant stand to hear a bit of provocative criticism. If you would have followed banhistory on TL you would have seen ppl like Idra and Inc banned too, so you see sucking dicks even up to 10k does not help . If you got a ban from Carn you really did a good job, since its normaly really hard to force that. If you do not want to socialize on forums what are your reasons then? | ||
zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
niteReloaded: Your guestion whether PERMAbanning is worth it is a better one than the one this topic began with. The original thesis of this topic was that bans are "pointless" which is utterly easy to refute. But you have taken the topic's name and maybe some of the responses and recovered maybe a real objection to bans; you have recovered a real question: what are bans accomplishing? Sure they aren't pointless, but what are they doing? How long do they need to be to do this? Are they excessive, i.e. can we get the same result with less severity, or can we improve our results? once we admit what the bans are for, we can then aim for maximum results. Instead we see a lot of excuses. "Rights-based" explanations. For instance Kwark says the analogy between permaban and the death penalty fails, because while you have a right to life, you don't have a right to teamliquid. This is a bad analogy itself. You don't have rights; they are fictions, written fictions that powerful people may or may not follow. In this respect any documentation TL offers is similar, be it a guide or a ten commandments or what have you. In reality they don't have to follow them, all that exists is the power--the U.S. government can come and kill you right now and your rights have nothing to do with whether that is possible or not. Rights are promises, though, and that's where the analogy is somewhat true. While in the U.S. you are promised to be able to do certain things or not have some things done to you, TL makes no promises. Perhaps that is what "it is our house" really means. TL promises you nothing. We can speculate as to why but that would just be insulting and more excuses would ensue. But I think niteReloaded's analogy is more right than Kwark gave credit for. When you kill someone as a punishment, they are destroyed; they can act and speak no more. They cannot change or earn or prove themselves; they can't reform. 10 years 20 years 50 years? No chance. They could win a nobel prize, discover the cure for cancer, find God, w/e, you don't care what they can or will do--they are over, FOREVER. That's the death penalty; it's permanent. So I think this is similar to a permaban. Let's admit the similarity. I have been banned from TL for several years. Do any of my bans warrant weeks let alone months let alone years? That's the wrong question to ask. It's not about punishment, because as we see in the u.s. punishment hardly does anything. The question is, have I been given a chance to reform? have i been told what needs to change, and been given a chance to show that i could do it? No, because I'm not worth the effort. No one is worth the effort. Ban them for a billion years and throw away the key. So anyways, the question is, what is the ban trying to accomplish? Deter me from making my bad posts? Okay, that works. But if your broader goal is to increase the quality of the site, I think you are not maximizing your gains. you're throwing the baby away with the bathwater. Temp bans give people a chance to show you they've changed. But in many cases I think people are perm banned right now when a temp ban would have been better. And furthermore people may be temp banned or perm banned without it ever being clear what they should do differently. Imagine you are locked up (similar to a ban because you are taken out of the ability to parcitipate in society, to act, etc.) but not told why, other than maybe "don't be a dumbass." Or maybe you were told "don't act like this" and shown a video of your entire day. that is literally what a lot of bans are like. now maybe you're let out of jail in a week, a month, three months. in such cases you really don't know wtf happened. and if you try to find out, odds are that path will get your ass banned again if you get pissed off at the arrogance and disrespect you are bound to receive, not to mention the snide responses by people who didn't even read what you wrote. and of course in many cases you won't be let out at all. you can write and write but the truth is, the people keeping you out won't spend 8 seconds to think about why you should be kept out let alone tell you or anyone who is willing to ask. So the question is, what's the goal here? If it's to get some emotional release by fucking with people at the expense of your site's (forum) quality (amount of quality contributions), I think it's successful. But if, for instance, forum quality comes first, this is a huge waste not putting a cap on how long bans are. Bans should never be so long. Bans should start short and get longer with each repeat offense, making it clear what they did wrong at each step. Then you would maximally reform posters rather than, throwing them away and having this constant cycle of bad people on their 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th account, who honestly don't always know exactly what they were doing wrong, but are guessing and probably over-correcting themselves--withhold much good content because it might be what got them banned, when it really wasnt. that's another issue. a lot of the content that is closed/banned doesn't really seem to be that threatening to the site. people that made bad topics or pointless responses all day long seem to be promoted rather than banned. bans are given to the people who take the time to get involved in discussions and ultimately have a few choice words for trolls and idiots who use TL like a poor man's youtube. I think it leaves TL a pretty dull place and honestly the majority of smart people i've seen here over the years feel the same way, but of course this isn't true because the new users don't see it and, well ... i think i've written enough.. niteReloaded is right though. What's the goal of the permaban vs. a long, longer temp ban? Serious, why are all my accounts banned for life, why not 5 years, 10 years, 20 years? i honestly think it's just a lack of effort, lack of critical thinking, or my bans would be shorter than infinite. Feuerbach out :/ "song before the lesson, kids like that" | ||
ish0wstopper
Korea (South)342 Posts
but hes an awesome asshole | ||
cgrinker
United States3824 Posts
Just kidding. You can IP ban people on TL right? Even if someone felt the need to create accounts over an over again to troll forums you could shut them down anyways. I feel bad when I get told I'm dumb on TL I don't think I would come back if I got banned. (plz don't test it lol) | ||
Kallepettersen
Germany24 Posts
omfg carnac ur sad! i know u were on the christopherus school ike me, so youre somewhat bound to be sad but come on! u dont HAVE to be a nerd! GTFO on the streets for the finals and if I see one more German posting on TL instead of being in the streets/bars to watch the game for the final hes officially the saddest individual on earth! A) I was drunk cus I had just watched Germany vs Turkey Semi-Final in the city. B) I was only teasing Carnac to make him go out on the streets for the finals, obviously this post was only directed at him so you cant understand it if you dont know the Christopherus school, which I am sure none of you do. I thought he could take some teasing but no I got banned. I then proceeded to not post for like 3 or 4 months because I was sure it was just a temp ban. After that time I realized I really got perm-banned for that so I made a new account and lost a ton of respect for tl.net. Also Zatic if you really think it was worth it, show me a post of mine where I go ahead and flame like a madman or shit like that. Almost all my posts in a serious discussion were long, thought out arguments, although many people disagreed with them, I never really insulted people in a harsh way. I even read the 10 commandments, you will hardly see any post in all caps by me , while I often see "respected" posters go apeshit in all caps just because their favorite player just pulled a great play or stuff like that. Now my 2nd aka was damenmofa to answer your question Chill. Here is what I got banned for: On October 19 2008 23:13 damenmofa wrote: wow ur being ignorant, but thats nothing new I guess... not everybody has 300 apm and Im sure more than one foreigner has sat down on a micro map for more than 2 days.. I still stand by that point and would call anybody, even manifesto himself, ignorant if he states that the lack of 'progamer muta micro' derives from foreigners unwillingness to "sit down on a micro map for 2 days and learn it". I also quoted Idra and therefore brought evidence to my "flame" as some poster in this thread requested to do if you wanna "flame". Maybe it also was because of this post later in the thread On October 20 2008 02:50 damenmofa wrote: yeah if were talking about koreans and a "perfect player" (lol), 2 hatch muta is the better build. Unfortunately you will still lose against a "perfect player" playing T, cus he will anticipate your muta movements and build enough static defense just in time... For foreigners, the very large majority will still fare better with 3 hatch muta, or do you play 2 hat muta more often than 3 hat muta nowadays chill? also that zoler guy annoys me, running around calling people names isnt exactly what id expect from a tl.net poster, and on top of that every post he makes just screams low level player 8[ 100 apm for muta micro maybe, but not for muta micro and flawless base management dude t.t I was just expressing that I strongly disagree with the concept of a "perfect player" in Broodwar, but I didnt wanna delve deeper into that topic because it would have been "derailing the thread". Nobody is perfect, especially not in broodwar, is all I can say. I proceeded to ask the question I already outlined in my other post. I think this indeed was punished with a tempban "only", but you may turn it into a permban if you really think it helps and my posts are completely inacceptable. So I made the work for you to find out these posts, now please explain me why people call me asshole and that is obviously regarded less disrespectful than the posts I made? Why do they run around and continue to throw around "retard" and "assholes"? Is insulting less of a bannable offensive than being disliked by many? edit: I just read zulu_nation_8s post and wow he is so right. I never see people getting banned for posting oneliner after oneliner, swimming in the mainstream just to up their postcount or because they have no own opinion at all, yet when you really get into discussions and probably have opinions that differ from the mainstream you risk being banned soon. Also he Is right in the point u never even get a post about your ban or anything makes it pretty much ineffective. When I first got banned I waited for months before I created another acc. I naturally assumed I would get unbanned sometime soon or at least receive a pm about it, because it was my first ban ever and I obviously had no clue how banning works on tl.net until then. It would have been much easier to just tell my why I got banned and how long I will be banned but just permbanning like that seemed ridiculous to me. As zulu_nation said, all this permbanning has made tl.net a much duller place over the years. Read his post again and again, cus he really put it better than I ever could have. I also dont think permbanning left and right in that fashion is the way to achieve quality posts and posters, but rather contributes to the contrary. | ||
rei
United States3593 Posts
But you are doing it wrong, pointing a finger on others will not get you anywhere. it takes a bigger man to say "I am sorry I will respect others from now on, and if disagreement comes up I will not flame people with words such as "retard" "assholes" or "ignorance" without evidence or justifications" So why don't you show others respect and they will do the same for you ? This is the lesson Zulu's talking about this is a chance for you to show reform and show everybody you can be respectful. | ||
zulu_nation8
China26351 Posts
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SonuvBob
Aiur21548 Posts
On October 29 2008 01:43 Kallepettersen wrote: I got banned for this post Looks to me like you got banned for having many bad posts, after a previous temp ban and warning. And now you've been posting on a new account to dodge a temp ban? | ||
bdams19
United States1316 Posts
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clazziquai
6685 Posts
I came back with a new name, clazziquai (obv..) and decided to post better and hopefully I am... | ||
bludragen88
United States527 Posts
But just in case... There is no way to provide positive reinforcement for good posts, even though we'd all like to see more of them, and there is no way to provide negative reinforcement either, because mods can't send us hugs and kisses. Thus, punishment is the only 'teaching' tool available to the mods, and it sucks for those who have received these bans but that doesn't mean they weren't deserved, and the results speak for themselves. Take a look at any unmoderated internet forum and compare the percentage of useful posts to this place. I'm probably one of the lowest post counts here who has never been banned (I didn't start playing starcraft until like 4 months ago when my friend showed me this site), but in my short time on this site I can already tell how much the quality depends on the quick but reasonable action of the mods. Call me a brownnoser if you like but if you try and take a look as an unbiased noob outsider, you'll quickly come to the same conclusion. And check out clazziquai's post... even more evidence that some people get the message from bans. | ||
Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
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