Hey guys, it’s Amaz! After the success of my Death Knight class concept I decided to do another one from the Warcraft universe. So here is the Monk class! Focus is our new ability this time around. Focus will give an extra ability to some of your cards if you use all your mana on that spell. For example, if you cast a two drop with only two mana it will trigger focus. If you have extra mana after casting a Focus card, it will not trigger.
Quick Notes
- All artwork is from Blizzard and WoW TCG, to my knowledge. - All cards were made on the hearthcards.net site, a big shoutout to them! - And of course, Blizzard, for making Hearthstone.
Chen Stormstout Emotes
Game Start - "For Pandaria!"
Greetings - "My respects, friend." Well Played - "Hahaha...well played!" Thanks - "I thank you for that." Sorry - "A fault is at hand." Oops - "Ooo, drunken mistake." Threaten - "Prepare to get trashed!"
Opponent plays Sylvanas Windrunner, she will say - "Vengeance is mine!"
When Thrall is your opponent, Game Start is instead "Hahaha, we meet again friend!"
I know you just pointed out on stream that Shadopan Trainee is a turn 3 play to get the most out of the battlecry. But even without the battlecry a 2/2 for 1 mana is completely solid (compare with every other 1 drop). The battlecry is pure upside for drawing it later in the game and its still perfectly fine as a turn 1 drop because it'll typically trade favourably, as a minimum evenly.
The comparison to Ironforge Rifleman makes sense, but this is also strictly better than that because you get two points out of your hero power for it. As well as being perfectly fine to drop earlier on.
Say you have a 2 mana card on turn 2. You play the 2 mana card and if it has Focus it triggers, as it has used exactly the amount of mana you have left.
If you played the same 2 mana focus card on turn 3 first, it would not activate the Focus ability. If you used a 1 mana card first and then the 2 mana focus card, it would trigger. Make sense?
On September 23 2014 00:20 Mackin wrote: Focus works this way:
Say you have a 2 mana card on turn 2. You play the 2 mana card and if it has Focus it triggers, as it has used exactly the amount of mana you have left.
If you played the same 2 mana focus card on turn 3 first, it would not activate the Focus ability. If you used a 1 mana card first and then the 2 mana focus card, it would trigger. Make sense?
Amaz is streaming this atm.
I see. Does the change hero power thing allow you to use hero power more than once a turn (like shadowform)? If yes, then you can always activate Focus using hero power as 1 mana fillers.
On September 23 2014 00:20 Mackin wrote: Focus works this way:
Say you have a 2 mana card on turn 2. You play the 2 mana card and if it has Focus it triggers, as it has used exactly the amount of mana you have left.
If you played the same 2 mana focus card on turn 3 first, it would not activate the Focus ability. If you used a 1 mana card first and then the 2 mana focus card, it would trigger. Make sense?
Amaz is streaming this atm.
Thanks, I am watching it right now, but I missed the beginning when he talked about Focus.
The class looks pretty cool, if a bit Focus-heavy. The only actual change I'd make is Afterlife -> 7 mana. The concept is indeed "win more", but you could manage to get a 3rd turtle right as you need it (or a second Niuzao), which always have turnaround potential.
Amaz would'nt be better if in the card touch of death instead of 44 damage be 12 or 14 damage seeing that most of de minions doesn't surpass this amount of health? 44 damage see like a kind extreme.
I think Taran Zu should be the hero and Chen Stormstout called be another legendary. Love the Idea and little customize thing you could do is instead of Mana it could be chi.
Really cool class concept Amaz. I like how it plays a little bit like Shaman, where you are having to plan out your turns way ahead of time. A monk player would have some very underwhelming turns, followed up by really value turns. Keep up the cool concepts =)
Does anyone else think the legendaries are a bit big in terms of their stats compared to their mana cost? Niuzao is already good enough as a 4-12 by itself without taunt. Not only does it have taunt but it can give taunt to another minion. I'd say it had to be at least 7 mana. Same goes for Xuen as it also only costs 5 mana yet it is a 5-9 with charge. And it gives other minions +1 attack! I think the biggest problem is not whether its stats and abilities are worth 5 mana but that it can be played on turn 5 or even turn 4 with coin. That is a lot of stats for being played out that early.
*edit: ahhh i see now I'm an idiot. I didn't see that you had to "summon" the legendary card with the spell... maybe it might be worth losing tempo for one turn just to get the legendary by turn 5 especially if your opponent is playing the control game but I'm not too sure
You need to forfeit a turn 4 by playing the legendary spell card in order to play the the legendary celestials on turn 5. So imo, it's quite balanced. You lose A LOT of tempo on turn 4 so I think it is quite balanced.
On September 23 2014 00:55 Thorinr wrote: Amaz would'nt be better if in the card touch of death instead of 44 damage be 12 or 14 damage seeing that most of de minions doesn't surpass this amount of health? 44 damage see like a kind extreme.
It's a flavor thing.
4 is the Chinese number of death (the words sound the same).
So 44 is a very unlucky number because it's super death lol.
On September 23 2014 00:55 Thorinr wrote: Amaz would'nt be better if in the card touch of death instead of 44 damage be 12 or 14 damage seeing that most of de minions doesn't surpass this amount of health? 44 damage see like a kind extreme.
It's a flavor thing.
4 is the Chinese number of death (the words sound the same).
So 44 is a very unlucky number because it's super death lol.
On September 23 2014 00:55 Thorinr wrote: Amaz would'nt be better if in the card touch of death instead of 44 damage be 12 or 14 damage seeing that most of de minions doesn't surpass this amount of health? 44 damage see like a kind extreme.
It's a flavor thing.
4 is the Chinese number of death (the words sound the same).
So 44 is a very unlucky number because it's super death lol.
Hey, in that case 14 would still work just as fine since it means "want to die" :p
The focus effect on Touch of Death is meant to be a hard removal effect, but is worded like this for the significance of 4 in Chinese culture. With 14 some ultra-buffed minions might not be killed.
[EDIT] Also for everyone who thinks those legendaries are too cheap, I think you don't understand you need to play another 4 mana card to get one of them, so they all cost 9 mana in fact, just split between 2 cards. And getting one out on turn 5 (can't be 4, cause you need to play the 4 mana card before) would mean to effectively "skip" the turn before, which is a huge loss of tempo.
People commenting that card X or card Y is too strong are missing the point. No one can perfectly balance the cards on the first shot with zero playtesting, not even Blizzard (who is still trying to figure out how they want Hunter to work). Just enjoy the ideas and don't worry if something should cost a little more or whatever.
On September 23 2014 00:55 Thorinr wrote: Amaz would'nt be better if in the card touch of death instead of 44 damage be 12 or 14 damage seeing that most of de minions doesn't surpass this amount of health? 44 damage see like a kind extreme.
It's a flavor thing.
4 is the Chinese number of death (the words sound the same).
So 44 is a very unlucky number because it's super death lol.
Hey, in that case 14 would still work just as fine since it means "want to die" :p
The focus effect on Touch of Death is meant to be a hard removal effect, but is worded like this for the significance of 4 in Chinese culture. With 14 some ultra-buffed minions might not be killed.
[EDIT] Also for everyone who thinks those legendaries are too cheap, I think you don't understand you need to play another 4 mana card to get one of them, so they all cost 9 mana in fact, just split between 2 cards. And getting one out on turn 5 (can't be 4, cause you need to play the 4 mana card before) would mean to effectively "skip" the turn before, which is a huge loss of tempo.
It can be played on turn 4 with either coin + Alemaster or the mana gain staff.I`d gladly skip on turn 3 for a turn 4 play like that espesially with a 1-2 drop play with the Alemaster.
The class is very cool and interesting conceptually. Focus rewards mana efficiency, leading to more precise decision-making, and a single class rotating Hero Power is a very cool idea. The example cards, probably too ambitious for actual use for most of them, but some tweaking, maybe redesigns from outside, and this could easily be an actual game class.
On September 23 2014 00:17 -Celestial- wrote: I know you just pointed out on stream that Shadopan Trainee is a turn 3 play to get the most out of the battlecry. But even without the battlecry a 2/2 for 1 mana is completely solid (compare with every other 1 drop). The battlecry is pure upside for drawing it later in the game and its still perfectly fine as a turn 1 drop because it'll typically trade favourably, as a minimum evenly.
The comparison to Ironforge Rifleman makes sense, but this is also strictly better than that because you get two points out of your hero power for it. As well as being perfectly fine to drop earlier on.
Well it should be better than an Ironforge Rifleman =P
I think a vanilla 1 mana 2/2 is still quite justifiable, even as a Neutral card to be honest.
On September 23 2014 01:09 RevenantSC2 wrote: Really cool class concept Amaz. I like how it plays a little bit like Shaman, where you are having to plan out your turns way ahead of time. A monk player would have some very underwhelming turns, followed up by really value turns. Keep up the cool concepts =)
On September 23 2014 01:32 blacksheepwall wrote: This is pretty well done. Really adds a new level of complexity/forethought to how to play.
On September 23 2014 04:06 Gergall wrote: Looks like a lot of fun to play.
People commenting that card X or card Y is too strong are missing the point. No one can perfectly balance the cards on the first shot with zero playtesting, not even Blizzard (who is still trying to figure out how they want Hunter to work). Just enjoy the ideas and don't worry if something should cost a little more or whatever.
Love the concept, Amaz! I was watching your stream this morning while getting ready for work, and I must say it's very original and very workable in the game!
I just have a minor nitpick. How is Eternal Guardian balanced? 7/7 for 5 mana is too stronk, and the Deathrattle doesn't help your opponent given that, at turn 5 or later, bonus mana crystals are borderline useless. You say that the 7 attack is vulnerable to BGH, but that's about it, and the 7 health is VERY beefy for 5 mana.
I think 6/7 for 5 mana is more balanced, but then it would just be a Boulderfist Ogre for less mana, so maybe something else needs to be done to make this card both balanced and interesting.
Anyway, I just wanted to hear your thoughts on this one minor nitpick, since it would give me some insight into your views on the current metagame and why you designed the Eternal Guardian that way.
Coupling the hero power RNG with Celestial legendaries is a really fun piece of design. The Focus mechanic could work too, makes sequencing trickier, but complexity is good; HS currently lacks it.
Some notes on card balancing. - Alemaster into Jab combo seems a bit overpowered for a turn 2 play. Although it wouldn't see much use in Constructed. - Afterlife should probably cost 5. It's sort of like a better Duplicate. A considerably better Duplicate. - Transcendence should probably cost 1. Yes, the extra mulligan is offset by the fact that you're actually spending a card, but free card draw in addition to that is a bit too much. - Eternal Guardian is just plain broken after turn 8. Needs further work.
I'm also not completely sold on the Emperor's Call price. The strength of cards like Ysera and Rag is counterbalanced by the player's inability to play anything of essence with them. In later rounds, the Monk would be able to play, for example, a 4-12 and a 7-7 body on the same turn without any penalties.
I do love the overall concept though. And I'd add that my ramblings could be silenced with mere polishing, without any major overhauls.
Now to the sole purpose of this account and its only post: I don't see any compelling reason to have these amazing (huehuehue) news on the front page, other than the writers/artists/players obvious connection to this very page of information that Liquidhearth seems to be, and have other peoples ("casuals" and persons not on a certain wageroll) class concepts rushing down the forum page numbers, even though they put as much or maybe even more work into their concept. (neither do i create nor carefully inspect class concepts). I could ignore it, but it bothers me as I think its rather shameless focus on one person and thus smells fishy. This is a community after all, or is this a teamliquidpro dot com subdomain? other than that, this is not the content I want to see on the front page, but thats just personal preference ofc.
Were not all super duper amaz fans, nor are we all boys.
Make it a repeating "column" where everyone (or maybe even only professional players) has a chance to show off his work on the frontpage and im all happy.
Opponent plays Sylvanas Windrunner, she will say - "Vengeance is mine!"
What's the deal between Sylvanas and Chen? I don't remember reading anything about it. Also, you should switch Yu'lon and Chi-Ji's battlecries. Chi-Ji is the healer and Yu'lon is the one associated with wisdom.
On September 23 2014 06:16 randomnamexyz wrote: Nice work etc. etc.
Now to the sole purpose of this account and its only post: I don't see any compelling reason to have these amazing (huehuehue) news on the front page, other than the writers/artists/players obvious connection to this very page of information that Liquidhearth seems to be, and have other peoples ("casuals" and persons not on a certain wageroll) class concepts rushing down the forum page numbers, even though they put as much or maybe even more work into their concept. (neither do i create nor carefully inspect class concepts). I could ignore it, but it bothers me as I think its rather shameless focus on one person and thus smells fishy. This is a community after all, or is this a teamliquidpro dot com subdomain? other than that, this is not the content I want to see on the front page, but thats just personal preference ofc.
Were not all super duper amaz fans, nor are we all boys.
Make it a repeating "column" where everyone (or maybe even only professional players) has a chance to show off his work on the frontpage and im all happy.
And please dont tell ME im overreacting
tl;dr: Not front page please.
Boohoo Liquid is giving exposure to Liquid players ): ): . If you're new to the Liquid community, Liquid always gave priority to content produced by Liquid staff as they have somewhat higher standards than most content producers(at least imo). Also, good non liquid staff content is highlighted in the front page.
I'm gonna be sincere with you, I've checked all other classes concepts people have posted in this website and imo this Monk concept blew all of them out of the water(including DK), I really would like to play this class differently from a bunch of others which some even used Keywords that belong to existing classes. I'm not even an Amaz fan(although I've been a Liquid fan since they announced their Sc2 roster) but your complain could be addressed to the whole of our society that works in a way that people have advantages based on their connections and interests since thousands of years ago. This is exacerbated by our lack of control of our material means of survival in capitalist society which makes this kind of social behavior even more vital.
PS: I wouldn't be impressed if Amaz took more time to design his class concepts as he probably playtested this(DK class concept was playtested) while most card/class concepts I've seen probably had no playtesting, also Amaz has worked in game design before, which must somehow explain why his class concepts although not perfectly balanced(ofc it would take a lot of testing to balance) seem very fun to play with.
On September 23 2014 06:16 Real_Joy wrote: Am I missing some sort of downside to the legendaries? or are they just really really good?
They aren't cards in your deck, you have to use a 4 mana legendary spell to draw one of the based on your hero power. So in total they cost 9 mana, you'd need to spend your fourth turn drawing a legendary to play one of those at 5 mana.
On September 23 2014 06:26 Cricketer12 wrote: touch of karma is the worst card in all of hearthstone
It isn't very mana efficient but it's a removal that deals with Tirion, Sylvanas, Cairne, etc, efficiently. MIght be a good one-of in control meta.
On September 23 2014 06:16 Real_Joy wrote: Am I missing some sort of downside to the legendaries? or are they just really really good?
They aren't cards in your deck, you have to use a 4 mana legendary spell to draw one of the based on your hero power. So in total they cost 9 mana, you'd need to spend your fourth turn drawing a legendary to play one of those at 5 mana.
On September 23 2014 06:26 Cricketer12 wrote: touch of karma is the worst card in all of hearthstone
It isn't very mana efficient but it's a removal that deals with Tirion, Sylvanas, Cairne, etc, efficiently. MIght be a good one-of in control meta.
Oops, double post.
I would still say they are all insanely overpowered because you aren't spending 9 mana you are spending 4 mana and then 5 mana. The distinction carries with it 2 key differences and that's that for one you aren't spending 9 mana in one turn you merely need to find 4 mana free to clear up the legendary which isn't all that uncommon in the late game. Secondly and more importantly with them all being 5 mana they can all be faceless manipulators and even though all of them are insane on there own being able to summon 2 per turn is just gamebreaking.
On September 23 2014 06:26 Cricketer12 wrote: touch of karma is the worst card in all of hearthstone
Not really, it is an assassinate, with the added benefit of removing deathrattles as well. So Sylvanas, Feugen, Stalagg and Cairne can be safely removed with no drawbacks.
I think it's a little bit too much for "Touch of Krama" to be a 6 mana cost spell. Compare with "Silence","Deadly shot","Assassinate",and"Touch of death". It only value when you focus and kill a minion with a strong deathrattle(like Sylvanas). Totally,It's usually useless...
On September 23 2014 12:39 haha77770 wrote: I think it's a little bit too much for "Touch of Krama" to be a 6 mana cost spell. Compare with "Silence","Deadly shot","Assassinate",and"Touch of death". It only value when you focus and kill a minion with a strong deathrattle(like Sylvanas). Totally,It's usually useless...
Ehhh... its pretty easy to activate focus... if you go second and your opponent just played Cairne on turn 6, you can just use touch of karma to kill it without Cairne's deathrattle going off. Same with Sylvanas. Not to mention that because of Chen's hero power, you can easily activate focus post turn 6. While I like to see it is slightly pricey, it is a better Assassinate because of the silence
On September 23 2014 12:39 haha77770 wrote: I think it's a little bit too much for "Touch of Krama" to be a 6 mana cost spell. Compare with "Silence","Deadly shot","Assassinate",and"Touch of death". It only value when you focus and kill a minion with a strong deathrattle(like Sylvanas). Totally,It's usually useless...
Granted without Focus, it is utter crap. Imo, it should be reworked and reworded to be.
Destroy a minion. Focus: Silence the minion first.
meh not the best of designs, focus is not an interesting design I think because you are usually making the mana efficient play already anyways, now you are just forced to do so even more. It doesn't create for interesting play, if you enforce the typical best play especially with a 1 mana hero power to fill the gap if it doesn't fit.
Hi, Amaz! Love watching your live plays. As you may know, many Chinese players are fond of you. And I'd like to translate your post and have it read by Chinese players. Now I start my translation work and I'll post it on 'bbs.ngacn.cc' which is my favorite forum of Blizzard's Games and hope to have your permission.
On September 23 2014 19:19 Markwerf wrote: meh not the best of designs, focus is not an interesting design I think because you are usually making the mana efficient play already anyways, now you are just forced to do so even more. It doesn't create for interesting play, if you enforce the typical best play especially with a 1 mana hero power to fill the gap if it doesn't fit.
That's only true in the early game. Later on you have to decide which card (or cards in specific cases) will activate focus. It's a more restrictive and semi-reverse combo.
Also, it's quite interesting how invested some of the responses in this thread are, I guess that answers why Liquidhearth bothers posting concept stuff!
I don't like the Focus mechanic at all, and I don't like that almost every class card makes use of it.
Sometimes you just don't get the right draws, and you can't play mana efficiently. You put a 3-drop down on turn 4, a 4-drop on turn 5, etc. They're the right plays, but it hurts being one mana lower than if you had the right cards.
This just amplifies that problem - when you get the right cards to hit all your marks, you get a bunch of bonus effects. When you don't, you get cards that are sub-par in value.
What this creates is the type of deck where you either dominate, or get dominated, with very little middle ground. That middle ground is where skill and smart plays become important, so eliminating it just makes every deck the equivalent of a gimmicky priest inner fire deck.
On September 24 2014 04:57 fdsdfg wrote: I don't like the Focus mechanic at all, and I don't like that almost every class card makes use of it.
What this creates is the type of deck where you either dominate, or get dominated, with very little middle ground. That middle ground is where skill and smart plays become important, so eliminating it just makes every deck the equivalent of a gimmicky priest inner fire deck.
On September 24 2014 04:57 fdsdfg wrote: I don't like the Focus mechanic at all, and I don't like that almost every class card makes use of it.
What this creates is the type of deck where you either dominate, or get dominated, with very little middle ground. That middle ground is where skill and smart plays become important, so eliminating it just makes every deck the equivalent of a gimmicky priest inner fire deck.
You are contradicting yourself.
No I'm not... the two points are not related at all.
The first point I'm saying that I don't like the fact that so many monk cards have something to do with focus.
The second point I'm saying that focus effectively rewards you for getting the right cards at the right time - and punishes you when you don't. This makes all your games more 'swingy', where games are not close, win or lose. Games with an Inner fire priest deck are similar to this; if you get your combo off and they have no answer, you dominate, otherwise you get crushed.
I like this concept because it attempts to feel different and unique. All classes have some degree of flavor and uniqueness and I think this Monk design at least fills a quota that a lot of other concept mock-ups have fallen very short on meeting.
That said, I don't actually like focus as a class specific mechanic. I just don't think it plays well or has much interesting synergy with existing cards. It also really limits deck creation -- you pretty much are forced to make a deck that curves out very well. As is, strong turns already have a sizable impact on a game. I don't think we need to further increase the swing in good turns and bad turns by adding a mechanic like focus.
This would definitely be my main class pick if it's actually in Hearthstone.
Transcendence is the most OP card I've ever seen though.
Edit: Oh, never-mind. Touch of Death allows turn 3 OTK and Ascension allows you turn 1 OTK?
Touch of Death only works on minions and with Ascension you would need infinity mana to deal infinity damage. feels like you have a bit of a hard time understanding card text.
This would definitely be my main class pick if it's actually in Hearthstone.
Transcendence is the most OP card I've ever seen though.
Edit: Oh, never-mind. Touch of Death allows turn 3 OTK and Ascension allows you turn 1 OTK?
Touch of Death only works on minions and with Ascension you would need infinity mana to deal infinity damage. feels like you have a bit of a hard time understanding card text.
LOL. Probably because I didn't have any sleep Tuesday night.
44 damage? xD I lol'd too much there. I take it as something like the US life sentence to 200 years in prison etc - in other words, it guarantees to be physical lethal, if there's not something else to prevent that.
Pretty, original, fresh, a bit better balanced than the Death Knight one, still op here and there; lots of randomness, some details of interactions need further clarification or testing. Overall, great work, thanks, Amaz! <3